Hard Light Productions Forums

Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: MP-Ryan on September 09, 2013, 09:50:23 am

Title: short password = bad; long passphrase = good
Post by: MP-Ryan on September 09, 2013, 09:50:23 am
http://www.popehat.com/2013/09/08/size-matters/

http://arstechnica.com/security/2013/03/how-i-became-a-password-cracker/

This subject has been mentioned before on HLP, but the above two links are excellent examples of why people should use long pass phrases that are easy to remember instead of short passwords that are not.
Title: Re: short password = bad; long passphrase = good
Post by: Scourge of Ages on September 09, 2013, 11:46:30 am
https://xkcd.com/936/
Title: Re: short password = bad; long passphrase = good
Post by: Luis Dias on September 09, 2013, 12:16:33 pm
Nice. have to update a lot of my passwords I guess.
Title: Re: short password = bad; long passphrase = good
Post by: perihelion on September 09, 2013, 12:17:54 pm
Yup.  Now, don't you wish that passwords longer than 8-10 characters were allowed on most of the places where you need them?  About the only place where I have been able to implement a pass-phrase is on my home wi-fi.  Granted that's an important one, but how about my bank?  My log-in at work?  My log-in to SAP?  My log-in to the engineering server?

Argh argh argh...
Title: Re: short password = bad; long passphrase = good
Post by: Mongoose on September 09, 2013, 12:41:22 pm
I was able to use a longer phrase for a few online retailers like Amazon, but yeah, a lot of password forms out there only go up to 10 characters, which defeats the whole purpose.
Title: Re: short password = bad; long passphrase = good
Post by: Klaustrophobia on September 09, 2013, 01:16:39 pm
my bank password is required to be exactly 6 alphanumeric.  i don't even get all that worried about password security, and that made me cringe. 

work passwords are a little bit better at 8, but they are well and truly completely random and have no hope in hell of having a word list used on them.
Title: Re: short password = bad; long passphrase = good
Post by: BloodEagle on September 09, 2013, 01:22:29 pm
my bank password is required to be exactly 6 alphanumeric.  i don't even get all that worried about password security, and that made me cringe. 

work passwords are a little bit better at 8, but they are well and truly completely random and have no hope in hell of having a word list used on them.

Hey, um.... Which bank do you use?
Title: Re: short password = bad; long passphrase = good
Post by: MP-Ryan on September 09, 2013, 01:35:31 pm
Funny you guys mention that.  I haven't managed to hit a limit on Google's services, but the Microsoft Account for this tablet I'm testing at work is max 16 character password and enforces stupid rules
Title: Re: short password = bad; long passphrase = good
Post by: deathfun on September 09, 2013, 02:40:21 pm
"Your password requires at least one number, an upper case letter, your mother's maiden name, a sacrificial goat, dancing around a fire and cutting out your heart to burn it in the hellfire pit in the middle of the temple to appease the password gods"
Title: Re: short password = bad; long passphrase = good
Post by: niffiwan on September 09, 2013, 05:09:18 pm
Banks are interesting.  All I've encountered have quite weak password requirements & they don't ever force you to change your password (although some think changing passwords regularly isn't that important (https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2010/11/changing_passwo.html) anyway).  They do seem to like 2 factor authentication though, like sending a confirmation SMS to your phone.  While I think that part of this is them just writing off a certain amount of fraud, I think it also shows what's actually cost-effective at preventing fraud.  i.e. if someone enters their password into a keystroke logger, it doesn't matter how strong said password is, and that event is more likely that someone brute force guessing your password.

Personally, I use a password management program (like KeePass) with a long master passphrase to open the file, and I use 16+ random character passwords for any sites that allow it, because once I'm using a password management program there's no reason not to make them as complicated as possible.  I think that having non-trivial separate passwords (http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2012/08/apple-amazon-mat-honan-hacking/) for every site I use is very important, and worth the risk of having all my passwords in a file that potentially could be stolen & unencrypted.  And there is no way on earth that I can memorise all the passwords that I need, especially for sites that I only need to login to occasionally.
Title: Re: short password = bad; long passphrase = good
Post by: Kobrar44 on September 09, 2013, 06:13:26 pm
I only use 20-character randomly generated password for my bank account, which is always empty anyways. Everything else has one of 3 passwords I used in the past. I had to change password on my google account since some chineese tried to hack it. Luckily google has some more safeties and only NSA knows everything.
Title: Re: short password = bad; long passphrase = good
Post by: BloodEagle on September 09, 2013, 06:43:40 pm
I had to change password on my google account since some chineese tried to hack it.

Query: How do you know they were Chinese and how do you know that there was more than one person involved in the attempt?
Title: Re: short password = bad; long passphrase = good
Post by: Spoon on September 09, 2013, 07:09:05 pm
I had to change password on my google account since some chineese tried to hack it. Luckily google has some more safeties and only NSA knows everything.
Same here.
Now my password is like three times as long. (Takes so much longer to log in now)
Title: Re: short password = bad; long passphrase = good
Post by: Phantom Hoover on September 09, 2013, 07:30:12 pm
best password i ever used was ultraneocontraantidisestablishmentarianism
Title: Re: short password = bad; long passphrase = good
Post by: Kobrar44 on September 09, 2013, 07:32:13 pm
I had to change password on my google account since some chineese tried to hack it.

Query: How do you know they were Chinese and how do you know that there was more than one person involved in the attempt?

Google tells you the location so at least the server was chineese. How many people were involved I don't care.
Title: Re: short password = bad; long passphrase = good
Post by: Dark RevenantX on September 09, 2013, 08:33:20 pm
I just use true random passwords of length 12-16 for everything, aside from a master password holding my vault locked under a very long passphrase.
Title: Re: short password = bad; long passphrase = good
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on September 10, 2013, 09:27:04 am
Good reads. I now feel tempted to change some of my passwords.

Microsoft has a guide on password creation that seems to echo what is being stated in the articles. (http://www.microsoft.com/security/online-privacy/passwords-create.aspx)
Title: Re: short password = bad; long passphrase = good
Post by: Klaustrophobia on September 10, 2013, 03:04:41 pm
my bank password is required to be exactly 6 alphanumeric.  i don't even get all that worried about password security, and that made me cringe. 

work passwords are a little bit better at 8, but they are well and truly completely random and have no hope in hell of having a word list used on them.

Hey, um.... Which bank do you use?


hopefully one that will NEVER leak its password lists. 

oddly enough, however, right after posting that i logged on and was greeted with a message saying they are going to be changing the password system soon.  hopefully that means changed rules and not just a new logon page.
Title: Re: short password = bad; long passphrase = good
Post by: rev_posix on September 10, 2013, 05:30:40 pm
Two-factor authentication FTW.

I turn it on with every system I can.  Twitter will send the one time use passcode via SMS, my bank uses a program called VIP Access from Symantec (formerly done by verisign), then there is the Google Authenticator.  Every login system should include this functionality IMO.
Title: Re: short password = bad; long passphrase = good
Post by: Klaustrophobia on September 10, 2013, 06:22:56 pm
google will never, ever, EVER get my real name or phone number.  they wouldn't even have my email address if they hadn't bought out youtube and inherited it.
Title: Re: short password = bad; long passphrase = good
Post by: niffiwan on September 10, 2013, 08:20:19 pm
Two factor auth is good & I recommend using it where you can, but it's still (https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2005/03/the_failure_of.html) fallible (http://www.techspot.com/news/51037-trojan-bypasses-two-factor-authentication-steals-465-million.html) unfortunately (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-16812064).  And I believe (although I can't find a link at the moment) that it's possible to intercept SMS's, or use social engineering on your Telco to transfer your number to a new SIM (http://thenextweb.com/africa/2013/05/28/south-african-mobile-operator-and-bank-team-up-to-tackle-sim-swap-fraud/).
Title: Re: short password = bad; long passphrase = good
Post by: Klaustrophobia on September 12, 2013, 10:50:54 pm
greeted by the following new asinine password requirements when logging in to check my pay stub today

The PASSWORD MUST:

    be 15 to 30 characters in length
    contain at least two uppercase letters (A-Z)
    contain at least two lowercase letters (a-z)
    contain at least two numbers (0-9)
    contain at least two of the following special characters: # @ $ % ^ ! * + = _
    change at least four characters from your previous password

The PASSWORD CANNOT:

    contain spaces
    be one of your last ten previous passwords

The PASSWORD will expire in 60 days.


the government is ****ing retarded.  thank you for guaranteeing i have to write down my password.  oh, and these are a completely DIFFERENT set of requirements from the four or five other various government websites i have to use regularly.
Title: Re: short password = bad; long passphrase = good
Post by: deathfun on September 13, 2013, 01:42:54 am
What in the actual ****
All they're forgetting is security questions you have to answer each time you log on
Oh, and those also expire every 60 days
Title: Re: short password = bad; long passphrase = good
Post by: niffiwan on September 13, 2013, 02:17:25 am
I've worked with (not at thankfully) companies that set the password expiry time to 30 days  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: short password = bad; long passphrase = good
Post by: Nuke on September 13, 2013, 07:34:49 am
twofactor can burn in hell with the rest of the internet. obligatory nuke all the things.

greeted by the following new asinine password requirements when logging in to check my pay stub today

The PASSWORD MUST:

    be 15 to 30 characters in length
    contain at least two uppercase letters (A-Z)
    contain at least two lowercase letters (a-z)
    contain at least two numbers (0-9)
    contain at least two of the following special characters: # @ $ % ^ ! * + = _
    change at least four characters from your previous password

The PASSWORD CANNOT:

    contain spaces
    be one of your last ten previous passwords

The PASSWORD will expire in 60 days.


the government is ****ing retarded.  thank you for guaranteeing i have to write down my password.  oh, and these are a completely DIFFERENT set of requirements from the four or five other various government websites i have to use regularly.

government websites in general suck. as a result i deal with the government entirely in paper. i like to use totally unreadable fonts, to match my equally unreadable penmanship. the best thing is no ****ing passwords. i particularly hate alaska's fish and game website. it never works. i have filled out my deer harvest reoprt for last year 3 times now, it says it goes through fine, but they still send be the yellow cards that say i didnt file it. only reason i didnt send paper was because i lost the form and couldnt find the pdf on the internet. so bomb the **** out of bureaucrats with actual bureaucracy.
Title: Re: short password = bad; long passphrase = good
Post by: The E on September 13, 2013, 08:34:29 am
The PASSWORD MUST:

    be 15 to 30 characters in length
okay

Quote
    contain at least two uppercase letters (A-Z)
okay
Quote
    contain at least two lowercase letters (a-z)
right
Quote
    contain at least two numbers (0-9)
makes sense
Quote
    contain at least two of the following special characters: # @ $ % ^ ! * + = _
I suppose
Quote
    change at least four characters from your previous password
wat

This raises so many questions regarding the implementation of the password query....
If they're using a sane system, said system must (not can, MUST) be unable to make that determination. So assuming they do, this is a requirement that humans have to execute, and can thus circumvent.
If they don't, if their password storage is so bad that this kind of thing can be verified automatically, well, you (and they) are ****ed, cos there's a hole in the security a mile wide.

Quote
The PASSWORD CANNOT:
    contain spaces
    be one of your last ten previous passwords

Again with the what. Must be unique across x iterations I can sort of understand, but cannot contain spaces? What kind of bull**** input routines are they using?

Quote
The PASSWORD will expire in 60 days.

Riiiiight
Title: Re: short password = bad; long passphrase = good
Post by: Klaustrophobia on September 13, 2013, 09:46:12 pm
---------- thought better of posting -----------

suffice it to say that the alternate logon method completely undermines the PW system anyway (but saves my ass from having to use it).  but i don't really need to go sharing details of that on the open internet.  :nervous: