Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Bobboau on October 02, 2013, 10:01:14 pm
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http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/10/02/fbi-shuts-down-silk-road-website/2909023/
if you didn't see this coming a million miles away you are an idiot.
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Or I've just never head of this "silk road" until now. :P
Good to see that with the government shut down they can still catch baddies. I guess? Not really sure where I'm going with that.
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I guess that makes two idiots, myself included :P
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And me. :nod:
So. Has anyone here actually heard of the Silk Road?
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y'all seriously knew nothing of this? :wtf: the tor site where you can buy anything illegal from weed to hookers to hit-men?
...you've heard of bitcoins right?
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Never heard of it before seeing the news about it having been taken down.
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Unfortunately, this will be used to demonize bitcoin. Then again, before bitcoin, cold hard cash was demonized the same way. Everyone shifts their sights.
But, keep in mind, as many bad people that use the tor network are just as many good, and gray area people. Most governments use and rely upon the tor network anyhow. The tor network will not just disappear luckily. However, thesilkroad, cool it's gone, but what i've found reading reviews of hitman services (creepy to read), is that more will pop up as simple as an add popping up in a newspaper. People won't take long to find alternatives, especially when easily found on the hidden wiki. So, does the hidden wiki get taken down next?
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probably, or its left up so gubbamint can find were everyone went just as easily.
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I assumed trade between Venice and Beijing had been disrupted.
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So for someone who has never heard of this before (I just read the npr article on it though) anybody wanna explain the background on this? Also how do you hidden interwebs
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Silk Road was a website only accessible via TOR that acted as a marketplace for goods of questionable legality in exchange for Bitcoins.
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Good riddance. I wonder, what are they going to do to those thousands buyers and sellers they identified? Are they just gonna put them on NSA's watchlist, or will there be bigger consequences?
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I'm only surprised it took this long. I messed around with TOR as a way to get around various school/work firewalls; it was actually pretty difficult not to give in to my curiosity and load up Silk Road just to see what was on there. The dark web gives me the creeps.
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Yar, I got that part. Did some research on Wikipedia, got my question answered. Who lays attention in class
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yeah, don't go there, you click on the wrong link and you have the party van pulling up to your front door.
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y'all seriously knew nothing of this? :wtf: the tor site where you can buy anything illegal from weed to hookers to hit-men?
...you've heard of bitcoins right?
Why would I know? I don't want any of those things.
Why do you know?
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y'all seriously knew nothing of this? :wtf: the tor site where you can buy anything illegal from weed to hookers to hit-men?
...you've heard of bitcoins right?
You really assume a lot of stuff about us don't you?
Why would I have the need of any of that stuff in the first place for me to "have to know" any of this?
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(http://www.china-mike.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/marco_polo-small.jpg) Feds best not **** with my ****.
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y'all seriously knew nothing of this? :wtf: the tor site where you can buy anything illegal from weed to hookers to hit-men?
...you've heard of bitcoins right?
Why would I know? I don't want any of those things.
Why do you know?
Thank you; my questions exactly.
Although I think I heard of bitcoins on the Team Fortress 2 Warehouse site, but I'm assuming it's just a cheap version of paypal for people who are paranoid about paypal (I.E. everyone I know on steam)
Also, never heard of TOR until now, either. I guess it's just a really big VPN with random access nodes? If so, I wonder if the american Netflix has blocked their IPs yet...;7
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I'd never heard of this before the story broke myself, and I consider myself at least reasonably informed, so meh. And all I know of Bitcoins is that they're something of a running joke.
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(http://www.china-mike.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/marco_polo-small.jpg) Feds best not **** with my ****.
that's not the problem here Kublai Khan.
And who here wastes their time getting bitcoin anyways?
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And all I know of Bitcoins is that they're something of a running joke.
Bitcoins are usually a running joke from those that don't understand currency (not implying you don't understand currency, but you heard this from people who don't). They may be a running joke, but that is ill informed and of course doesn't have much if any meaning. Then again i've seen people who invest in gold get ridiculed by more people who don't understand currency. At least gold is easy to wrap a brain around; it is finite, it's value doesn't change.
Now bitcoins being a running joke. We already know that's great to scoff at in the first place. This is the number one currency of the dark internet, for good and bad purchases and sales (that's very successful currency adoption right there, it obviously has value). Bitcoin is slowly becoming an option of payment across the known internet too. There's also an ever increasing number of physical real life locations you can use bitcoin like bars, atms, stores (not quite in america yet). Lastly, bitcoins are valuable.
I don't see how any of this could be a running joke. Other people may not want to see it, but it is a successful thriving currency. Now the next form of argument coming from people is that bitcoin is only used for buying questionable goods like drugs and hitmen. The only thing to say to that is you can get the same stuff with normal cold hard cash as well (there's no difference in buying bad stuff with whatever currency since in the end it was still someone with money and an intent for the goods).
It may seem wierd, but bitcoin has matured to the point, and adopted enough that you can use it to grow your money. As far as investing in bitcoin for a rainy day fund. Nah, you'd rather invest in inflation proof gold.
Bitcoins are fascinating. I'm learning as much as i can before i go diving into it with my floaties on until i learn more from experience the day i take off the floaties.
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At least gold is easy to wrap a brain around; it is finite, it's value doesn't change.
Wait, what? (http://www.macrotrends.net/1333/gold-and-silver-prices-100-year-historical-chart)
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Ah, you see, that's not the price of gold changing; it's the price of everything else! Similarly, last April everything else doubled in value whilst Bitcoin stayed the same.
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I assumed trade between Venice and Beijing had been disrupted.
My first thought was that the old MMORPG (http://www.joymax.com/silkroad/) finally shut down. I was disappointed to learn it was not.
Joking aside, Bitcoin: http://www.cgpgrey.com/blog/on-bitcoin-first-impressions
That's where I heard about silk road.
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At least gold is easy to wrap a brain around; it is finite, it's value doesn't change.
Wait, what? (http://www.macrotrends.net/1333/gold-and-silver-prices-100-year-historical-chart)
I will finish the sentence in this case. Gold is finite, while fiat currency is infinite. Gold will be whatever the price of inflated or deflated currency is valued at.
The easiest and laziest way to keep up with inflation is to turn all of your money assets into gold. Gold keeps up with inflation. If you bought gold at $1310 an ounce, and next year you sold that gold with inflation still going up with next years price per ounce being $1500; all you did was successfully keep up with inflation, you did not grow your money. Now of course this isn't practical, but it is a sure way to keep up with inflation.
What was a horrible time in history was teddy roosevelts executive order 6102. Now that was a fleecing of the populace.
But anyway, the link you provided shows how gold values go up and down. Gold is worth whatever the currency says it's worth, and that goes up and down. Because it's inflation and even deflation proof means that it's value never changes. The graphs you provided show this off. Then again, these graphs are worth more than just showing off gold value never changes. However, another topic. Gold is just an example of something that doesn't change value.
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bitcoin - yes heard of - dont care
silk road - never heard of - tbh still dont care and certainly not big enough news for me to bother reading this thread again
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I'd never heard of TOR or silkroad or bitcoins.
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The tor network is valuable to all of us. Bitcoin is another matter. Bitcoin is one of two things. To grow your money, to get transactions done easily over the internet, or both.
EDiT: the tor network increases in valuability because of my country's spying which easily become international. After all, not only americans use myspace, facebook, hotmail, etc.
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The easiest and laziest way to keep up with inflation is to turn all of your money assets into gold. Gold keeps up with inflation. If you bought gold at $1310 an ounce, and next year you sold that gold with inflation still going up with next years price per ounce being $1500; all you did was successfully keep up with inflation, you did not grow your money. Now of course this isn't practical, but it is a sure way to keep up with inflation.
Isn't Gold just an commidity like any other, which can be produced (albeit in limited numbers), and thus it price will increase or decrease based on supply and demand? With the demand generously increasing in times of crisis, depression, and inflation?
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At least gold is easy to wrap a brain around; it is finite, it's value doesn't change.
Wait, what? (http://www.macrotrends.net/1333/gold-and-silver-prices-100-year-historical-chart)
I will finish the sentence in this case. Gold is finite, while fiat currency is infinite. Gold will be whatever the price of inflated or deflated currency is valued at.
The easiest and laziest way to keep up with inflation is to turn all of your money assets into gold. Gold keeps up with inflation. If you bought gold at $1310 an ounce, and next year you sold that gold with inflation still going up with next years price per ounce being $1500; all you did was successfully keep up with inflation, you did not grow your money. Now of course this isn't practical, but it is a sure way to keep up with inflation.
What was a horrible time in history was teddy roosevelts executive order 6102. Now that was a fleecing of the populace.
But anyway, the link you provided shows how gold values go up and down. Gold is worth whatever the currency says it's worth, and that goes up and down. Because it's inflation and even deflation proof means that it's value never changes. The graphs you provided show this off. Then again, these graphs are worth more than just showing off gold value never changes. However, another topic. Gold is just an example of something that doesn't change value.
No, just no.
That is just wrong. Look at the graph (http://www.macrotrends.net/1333/gold-and-silver-prices-100-year-historical-chart) I provided, it shows the value of gold adjusted for inflation since 1915.
Gold is subject to the same effects as other commodities, it's not a magical substance.
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I mean for god's sake, silver or platinum or ****ing tellurium have a finite supply in the same sense as gold, and yet the relative prices of all four vary wildly. It boggles my mind how you can stand by this utterly bonkers view of economics with such conviction.
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At least gold is easy to wrap a brain around; it is finite, it's value doesn't change.
Wait, what? (http://www.macrotrends.net/1333/gold-and-silver-prices-100-year-historical-chart)
I will finish the sentence in this case. Gold is finite, while fiat currency is infinite. Gold will be whatever the price of inflated or deflated currency is valued at.
The easiest and laziest way to keep up with inflation is to turn all of your money assets into gold. Gold keeps up with inflation. If you bought gold at $1310 an ounce, and next year you sold that gold with inflation still going up with next years price per ounce being $1500; all you did was successfully keep up with inflation, you did not grow your money. Now of course this isn't practical, but it is a sure way to keep up with inflation.
What was a horrible time in history was teddy roosevelts executive order 6102. Now that was a fleecing of the populace.
But anyway, the link you provided shows how gold values go up and down. Gold is worth whatever the currency says it's worth, and that goes up and down. Because it's inflation and even deflation proof means that it's value never changes. The graphs you provided show this off. Then again, these graphs are worth more than just showing off gold value never changes. However, another topic. Gold is just an example of something that doesn't change value.
Ahahahahahahahahahahahaha
My initial reaction was exactly the same as Phantom Hoover's: Gold is *always* stable because Gold is always its own reference for goldbugs. Dontcha know that one ounce of Gold is always = one ounce of Gold? Perfect stability if you ask me! :D :D :D :D.
These shenanigans are so ingrained in our popular culture, no wonder that high politics play this nonsense game of ignoring basic rules and findings of macro-economics and try to impose austerities and other crazy measures like it, with the always occurring loud-piece in the background of some Fox News like channell saying stuff like "oh of course, if we had still kept the gold standard, all the problems of the middle class wouldn't exist, it's those ev1l librls and their loose money policies that are bankrupting our culture and our wealth!!1!". Then, they might as well tell us what they really think about the world and inform us the useful idiots that any woes we go through are to blame on things like social security and any "socialist-communist" idea like the welfare state.
And because some of these people seem sincere and honest while saying this bafoonery, like Ron Paul and so on, some people actually take them seriously. I really hope this nasty venom stays inside the US.
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Like Joshua said: Gold prices are dictated by supply and demand.
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For extra research. Find out more about teddy roosevelt's executive order 6102. It was particularly nasty for the fleecing of profits from the populace.
Like Joshua said: Gold prices are dictated by supply and demand.
Gold is pretty damn stable.
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For extra research. Find out more about teddy roosevelt's executive order 6102. It was particularly nasty for the fleecing of profits from the populace.
Like Joshua said: Gold prices are dictated by supply and demand.
Gold is pretty damn stable.
Check 1979 - 1981 as a particularly brutal counter-example.
Or for a more recent example, just the past 2 years or so.
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For extra research. Find out more about teddy roosevelt's executive order 6102. It was particularly nasty for the fleecing of profits from the populace.
Like Joshua said: Gold prices are dictated by supply and demand.
Gold is pretty damn stable.
As I said, just look at GOLD ounces' price in GOLD ounces. Amazingly stable!
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For extra research. Find out more about teddy roosevelt's executive order 6102. It was particularly nasty for the fleecing of profits from the populace.
Like Joshua said: Gold prices are dictated by supply and demand.
Gold is pretty damn stable.
Aqua regia mother****er
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Now why didn't ian Fleming think of that when he was depicting fort Knox?
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s-99, you're aware that bitcoin is essentially a pyramid scheme right?
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I think S-99 is confusing the fact that there is a theoretical finite limit of element Au on Earth with near-absolute value.
Gold is a commodity subject to market valuation and accompanying fluctuation. Now, if all countries moved to a gold-standard for currency valuation then it would become at least partially inflation- (and deflation-) proof, but at the present gold is no more secure or stable than any other commodity or resource.
While gold isn't a bad investment if you time it right - see the recent astronomical increase in gold value, but accompanying devaluation - it's no more useful than a number of other commodities and not terribly more stable over the long term.
There's an increasing perception among survivalists/preppers/Freemen/fringe Republicands/other conspiracy-minded types that gold or silver is the best way to hold monetary value, but it just isn't true. In fact, it's actually one of the poorest ways to hold value in that gold is not an essential commodity of use (well, except for certain electronics applications); it's largely just another form of currency.
Nothing is truly inflation-proof, but one of the best ways to ensure you hold financial ground is to diversify your investments to different vehicles (some safe, some riskier), invest in stocks that match the index performance (rather than trying to beat it), and invest in real property. And by real property I mean land, not real estate.
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For a primer on the subject of illicit internet markets and secure internet money, I recommend reading Neal Stephenson's Cryptonomicon.
For a similar exploration of backed currencies vs fiat currencies, I recommend Stephensons' Baroque Cycle (Which is incidentally a prequel to Cryptonomicon...)
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you could also just read actual reference material
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Not enough gunfights and weird stuff in there.
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:beamz:
Happy?
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No, just no.
That is just wrong. Look at the graph (http://www.macrotrends.net/1333/gold-and-silver-prices-100-year-historical-chart) I provided, it shows the value of gold adjusted for inflation since 1915.
Gold is subject to the same effects as other commodities, it's not a magical substance.
Of course it's not a magical substance. The value of gold will definitely inflate the more we get it out of the ground. The spanish went through this with a lot of gold coming from the new world which definitely inflated the price back then.
How can gold be inflation proof? I guess a better answer would be that at certain long periods of time and trends in the gold market that it can be inflation resistant. Inflation resistance would be judged by how many times the damn stuff is adjusted for inflation for an overall outlook as opposed to certain long periods of times and trends. Really i think what matters for gold inflating noticeably any time soon would pretty much be something ridiculous such as someone pulling 400 tonnes of gold out of the ground for a big adjustment for inflation.
s-99, you're aware that bitcoin is essentially a pyramid scheme right?
It's not.
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I think you're confused about the term 'inflation,' and the economic forces at work on commodities. Generally speaking, commodity prices are determined by supply-and-demand economics; supply is inversely proportional to value while demand is proportional. If you extract more of a commodity, the value of it will go down unless there is a corresponding increase in demand. These value fluctuations have little to do with inflation; rather, inflation describes devaluation of currency and assets. So long as gold is either a currency or an asset, it is subject to inflation.
Gold is no more inflation-proof or resistant than any other commodity, from lumber to gas to oil to precious metals to rare earths. Where all of those differ from each other is in volatility as a function of time. Gold isn't really a better long term investment than any other commodity at present; and in the short term, if you invest at the wrong time, it can really hurt.
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S-99, you seem utterly oblivious to the realities of what really drives the gold price, and the gold supply. First off, the gold price is absolutely driven by supply and demand. That's why greater demand (such as for Indian wedding season (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-04-15/indians-defer-gold-purchases-betting-bear-market-set-to-deepen.html)) affects the price. And as the price goes up, production ramps up to meet the greater demand - often taking the form of old mines that were once uneconomic, but have become economical to extract from under a higher gold price. Note that that particular scale (higher price of gold = viable to extract from lower grade sources) goes a long way - there are literally thousands of small plays across just the small parts of my home state where I've worked that are left sitting in the ground because they're uneconomic without a higher gold price.
Really i think what matters for gold inflating noticeably any time soon would pretty much be something ridiculous such as someone pulling 400 tonnes of gold out of the ground for a big adjustment for inflation.
Globally we pull about 4-5 times that much out of the ground every year - Australia alone pulls out more than half that amount (http://www.ga.gov.au/minerals/mineral-resources/gold.html). A big mine will easily pull 10 tonnes a year, really big ones will do two or three times that.
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s-99, you're aware that bitcoin is essentially a pyramid scheme right?
It's not.
the creators whipped up a virtual..... something out of thin air. They professed these bits of data flying about on the internet were inherently worth real money and sold them. The only legitimate selling point (by that I mean not including illicit purchases over the internet) was that they were going to increase in value and you could sell them for gain later. And that whole "mining" bitcoins business that was designed such that returns exponentially tailed off the more coins were created. Guess who this benefits again? So it's either a scam or a currency for illegal things. Oh, there's like one t-shirt guy or something who takes bitcoins. So there's that too I guess.
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Yeah, the idea of a "currency" without the full faith and credit of...pretty much any legitimate entity doesn't really fly with me.
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No, just no.
That is just wrong. Look at the graph (http://www.macrotrends.net/1333/gold-and-silver-prices-100-year-historical-chart) I provided, it shows the value of gold adjusted for inflation since 1915.
Gold is subject to the same effects as other commodities, it's not a magical substance.
Of course it's not a magical substance. The value of gold will definitely inflate the more we get it out of the ground. The spanish went through this with a lot of gold coming from the new world which definitely inflated the price back then.
How can gold be inflation proof? I guess a better answer would be that at certain long periods of time and trends in the gold market that it can be inflation resistant. Inflation resistance would be judged by how many times the damn stuff is adjusted for inflation for an overall outlook as opposed to certain long periods of times and trends. Really i think what matters for gold inflating noticeably any time soon would pretty much be something ridiculous such as someone pulling 400 tonnes of gold out of the ground for a big adjustment for inflation.
S-99, look at the Gold values from the last 20 years. You went from a relatively low value to historic high values and now it's crashing back down again. By your description, one would expect that the value of gold adjusted for inflation would remain a reasonably stable constant. But that's about the opposite of what happens.
Hell, if you look at weekly trends (http://www.bullionvault.com/gold-price-chart.do) you'll see its value going all over the place. You might as well claim S&P500 is also inflation proof.
P.S.
Remember this remark?
If you bought gold at $1310 an ounce, and next year you sold that gold with inflation still going up with next years price per ounce being $1500; all you did was successfully keep up with inflation, you did not grow your money.
If a year ago you had bought gold to sell it right now, you would have lost a lot of money, and with the current trends, what you suggested still seems like a mistake.
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Note that S-99's definition of 'inflation' seems to actually be the rate of change of gold prices; so of course, it's inflation-proof by definition. You're coming at this from the wrong angle.
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S-99, look at the Gold values from the last 20 years. You went from a relatively low value to historic high values and now it's crashing back down again. By your description, one would expect that the value of gold adjusted for inflation would remain a reasonably stable constant. But that's about the opposite of what happens.
Funnily enough, it's because of what S-99 is saying that it's so fluctuable. Rich people buy lots of gold because they think it's stable and inflation proof --- thus making it very unstable. It's a self-destroying prophecy or... something.
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@Klaustrophobia (and anybody else, really):
As I understood it, the driving rationale for inventing bitcoin was to get rid of the possibility of third-party interference in transactions, in particular the sort of bull**** Paypal et al. pulled on Wikileaks.
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it's such a success that no government in the world or even the recipient of the money (http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2013/10/bitcoin-addres/) can stop transfers.
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That seems...incredibly silly. Why would anyone use a currency where every transaction you make is publicly-viewable?
Also protesting the shutdown of a blatantly-illegal site (and we're not talking the warm fuzzy torrentzplz kind of "illegal") just makes you look rather stupid.
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I'm back. RL had taken me away for a while.
Of course it's not a magical substance. The value of gold will definitely inflate the more we get it out of the ground. The spanish went through this with a lot of gold coming from the new world which definitely inflated the price back then.
How can gold be inflation proof? I guess a better answer would be that at certain long periods of time and trends in the gold market that it can be inflation resistant. Inflation resistance would be judged by how many times the damn stuff is adjusted for inflation for an overall outlook as opposed to certain long periods of times and trends. Really i think what matters for gold inflating noticeably any time soon would pretty much be something ridiculous such as someone pulling 400 tonnes of gold out of the ground for a big adjustment for inflation.
S-99, look at the Gold values from the last 20 years. You went from a relatively low value to historic high values and now it's crashing back down again. By your description, one would expect that the value of gold adjusted for inflation would remain a reasonably stable constant. But that's about the opposite of what happens.
It got down to me saying nothing more than sometimes gold doesn't change value....sometimes.
P.S.
Remember this remark?
I do remember that remark. Then people reminded me that gold can inflate, then i remembered a famous historical moment for that happening. Yes we know the market goes up and down and i was reminded that gold can inflate. I wasn't tracking trends, but more or less what makes gold inflate, and one way for certain is flooding the market with more gold.the creators whipped up a virtual..... something out of thin air. They professed these bits of data flying about on the internet were inherently worth real money and sold them. The only legitimate selling point (by that I mean not including illicit purchases over the internet) was that they were going to increase in value and you could sell them for gain later. And that whole "mining" bitcoins business that was designed such that returns exponentially tailed off the more coins were created. Guess who this benefits again? So it's either a scam or a currency for illegal things. Oh, there's like one t-shirt guy or something who takes bitcoins. So there's that too I guess.
The person and persons who created bitcoin is definitely the mysterious part. Them remaining anonymous is an intelligent decision for them. It beats having governments coming after you because they don't like the new competing currency that they don't get to govern. There's only 21 million bitcoins in existence, there is a fixed amount. The more and more people will mine for them, the less and less they'll get. Quantifying what backs the currency is another interesting thing. Really, the currency backs itself like gold does. People gave bitcoin value, like people give other things value too. If you find that bitcoin has no value because it is backed by itself, then that's like saying gold is valueless because it is backed by itself. Why they back themselves is because people gave those items value.
Anyway, i'm not going to get too much into bitcoin with you. You simply don't like the currency, and that's you're right. Maybe because it's too suspicious for you? Maybe the intangibility of the currency is the problem? I don't care. I doubt i'm going to hear anything more from you about this currency other than "it's a scam", "it has no value", "why are the guys who made it unknown?", "it's a currency for illegal items or just buying a t-shirt", and other heebie jeebies you got about this currency. Then again, most people who don't like something definitely don't want to learn more because it's not a product of their interest. If you want to learn more about bitcoin, then find out more. I'm tired of talking to a wall who "feels" a certain way about something.
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This is great news. I remember reading up on bitcoin after seeing This story (http://www.pcgamer.com/2013/05/01/esea-accidentally-release-malware-into-public-client-causing-users-to-farm-bitcoins/), and that lead to finding info and articles on tor, the darknet and Anon's crusades into it.
After reading about some of the crazy **** people found on that site and in the hidden wiki, and how easy it was, it makes me wonder why it took so long.
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they were gathering evidence on as large a portion of the user base as possible.
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Really, the currency backs itself like gold does. People gave bitcoin value, like people give other things value too. If you find that bitcoin has no value because it is backed by itself, then that's like saying gold is valueless because it is backed by itself. Why they back themselves is because people gave those items value.
so remind me why fiat currency is a scam
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It depends if certain fiat currency is a scam if the government backing it is scamming people.
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So... every currency is a scam?
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You said every currency.
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@S-99: value is relative and subjective. This applies both to the things you want to buy, and the currency you buy those things with. So yes, all currency is "fiat currency".
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Picture of kalen aidan
@S-99: value is relative and subjective. This applies both to the things you want to buy, and the currency you buy those things with. So yes, all currency is "fiat currency".
Otherwise gold would be valueless, and so would bitcoin, along with a whole multitude of other things. It was actually klaustrophobia who didn't want to accept that humans gave bitcoin value. His idea of value of a currency never went beyond backing of a currency, and if he simply didn't like something. My response to you is of course, i guess i was no where near obvious enough.
It didn't matter what phantom hoover was going on about.
Really, the currency backs itself like gold does. People gave bitcoin value, like people give other things value too. If you find that bitcoin has no value because it is backed by itself, then that's like saying gold is valueless because it is backed by itself. Why they back themselves is because people gave those items value.
so remind me why fiat currency is a scam
So, i said.
It depends if certain fiat currency is a scam if the government backing it is scamming people.
To which i got.
So... every currency is a scam?
To which i replied.
You said every currency.
I was talking about fiat currency. Blood eagle said every currency. I didn't point that out to be a smart ass. But, when one person A wants a wierd reminder about fiat currency, and the next comment from person B is questioning every currency in existence being a scam. I call it an incorrect relation.
No, aardwolf and bloodeagle, not all currencies are fiat. Fiat currencies are any state issued, or government declared legal tender, and without intrinsic value. Not all currencies are state issued, not all currencies are declared legal tender by governments. All currencies are at least extrinsic in value for something in common.
What i meant by "It depends if certain fiat currency is a scam if the government backing it is scamming people.", was nothing more than that. It's not inconceivable that some governments manage their currency and it's value better compared to other governments and their currencies. I wasn't trying to get at all fiat currencies being a scam. Some fiat currencies are more of a scam than others, and it'd take some good long research to find if an honest to goodness confidence trick free fiat currency exists (if one does). Are we going to find a scamless fiat currency? Probably not anymore, if ever, it depends how and when government of said fiat currency ****s with it for the citizens to enjoy devaluing of their bills understood as government x did something it didn't have to do with its currency if it was something corrupt.
A good currency i would treat as a scam would be my own american dollars. A good example of conning people was executive order 6102 signed in by president roosevelt. That executive order said all americans had to turn over all of their gold except a small amount (the small amount was $100 in gold coins) in exchange for cash. Now this might not sound so bad at first, but it was because of devaluing. This presidential executive order resulted in a devaluation of the dollar by 40%. Anybody who exchanged their gold for cash lost 40% of their value in cash. It was a ****ty thing to happen. A good confidence trick to get people to trust the currency more, by forcing them to use it. Pretty darn scammy to do so by making gold ownership next to illegal.
The next scam was with nixon ending the direct convertability of dollars to gold. That pissed people off.
This leaves me here today wondering wtf are my dollars worth?
Now, fiat currencies can start out as scams while (the few if any if ever) non scam fiat currencies can become scams.
For myself and intrinsic value of extrinsic fiat currency:
Yes certain fiat currencies have higher intrinsic value compared to others (this is separate from the extrinsic purpose of it). What i'm getting at here, is you can have a brief case of highly sought after currency. In the past this was american bills; i don't know what the new highly sought after currency is anymore. Well, i'll get down to it. When someone in the 90 or something had a briefcase full of $100000 american dollars that was theirs, it tends to make them happy. Although uncle scrooge in duck tales didn't have dollars, his money definitely had intrinsic value for him. But, intrinsic value does have a meaningful meaning to currencies, especially fiat.
Where does that leave me? Days and days go by where i trust the value of this cotton paper less and less and less, especially this close to my government defaulting on the debt. I don't even think that it's backed by gold anymore with the ending of the direct convertability to gold from dollars. With the value of my currency close to failing, and questionability of what my currency is backed on. The popular belief is that it's just monopoly money (which it probably just is now) in a move where the government was trying to get the paper money to back itself because it highly sought after (not as much as it was compared to now, my currency's intrinsic value is lowering), people knew the american economy was strong (not as strong as it was compared to now), the money was popularized (it's the number one thing foreign criminals sure like to have); trying to get humans to give cotton paper a value with faked extrinsic value. That's what i think.
I will definitely call my currency a scam. It'd be nice if my government could be more responsible and less corrupt with it. So back to gold for a second.
Note that S-99's definition of 'inflation' seems to actually be the rate of change of gold prices; so of course, it's inflation-proof by definition. You're coming at this from the wrong angle.
That's where i was coming from yes.
Rich people buy lots of gold because they think it's stable and inflation proof --- thus making it very unstable. It's a self-destroying prophecy or... something.
There's many reasons for rich and poor people to convert one currency into another. In this case, fiat currency to gold. Gold retains value better (when a currency goes bust, gold will still have value), i would say it is stable. But, another amazingly brilliant thing to do is leaving the game entirely.Governments don't like anybody storing gold. If you turned all of your dollars into gold or some other ****ing precious metal (it doesn't matter), then you have left economy. Move onto something next. Maybe people would find this pointless. I however don't if a currency is failing.
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I tried to read this, but I failed.
S-99: Every currency in use in international trade these days is a fiat currency. There are no currencies in use right now that are backed by a gold standard (wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_standard)).
Even if you were to convert all your money to gold, you wouldn't have "left the economy", as you would still be interacting with people who participate in it (Unless, of course, you decide to retreat from modern society completely, in which case I shall wish you good luck in your new career as a crazy person living in the wild).
All you'd accomplish is to make yourself into a giant pain in the ass for everyone you want to deal with, as your gold is pretty much worthless as a means of wealth exchange.
The problem is this: Gold, like any other fiat currency, only has the value we give it. For me, gold has a rather low value, because there's little I can do with it, given that there are no stores who accept it as an exchange medium. The value of money is determined by what I can do with it. Whether I can redeem it for $PRECIOUS_METAL or not is of little consequence to me, all I care about is "Can I get food/housing/clothing/luxuries with it".
While there are risks involved with fiat currencies, there are just as terrible risks associated with backed ones (The risk of deflation if the money supply cannot keep up with economic demand among them). I'd rather take my chances with the system we have now than with the system that brought us the first great depression.
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Typical HLP, I go into a thread looking for info about where I can safely buy drugs online, and I end up reading dissertations about the benefits and drawbacks of various forms of currency.
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(Unless, of course, you decide to retreat from modern society completely, in which case I shall wish you good luck in your new career as a crazy person living in the wild).
And of course have fun extracting any meaningful utility from that gold out in the wilderness (or after the collapse, libertarians love that scenario too). The 'value' of gold is just as contingent on the collective beliefs of the market as that of fiat currencies; the myth of its worth is just more deeply culturally ingrained.
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I tried to read this, but I failed.
S-99: Every currency in use in international trade these days is a fiat currency. There are no currencies in use right now that are backed by a gold standard (wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_standard)).
Even if you were to convert all your money to gold, you wouldn't have "left the economy", as you would still be interacting with people who participate in it (Unless, of course, you decide to retreat from modern society completely, in which case I shall wish you good luck in your new career as a crazy person living in the wild).
All you'd accomplish is to make yourself into a giant pain in the ass for everyone you want to deal with, as your gold is pretty much worthless as a means of wealth exchange.
The problem is this: Gold, like any other fiat currency, only has the value we give it. For me, gold has a rather low value, because there's little I can do with it, given that there are no stores who accept it as an exchange medium. The value of money is determined by what I can do with it. Whether I can redeem it for $PRECIOUS_METAL or not is of little consequence to me, all I care about is "Can I get food/housing/clothing/luxuries with it".
While there are risks involved with fiat currencies, there are just as terrible risks associated with backed ones (The risk of deflation if the money supply cannot keep up with economic demand among them). I'd rather take my chances with the system we have now than with the system that brought us the first great depression.
Leaving your economy for a different one while bringing said economy's profits you've made with you in a form that loses value slowly or doesn't lose value (my government doesn't like people doing this). Move from the american economy to some other country's. I can see where this would be handy. None of us have the need to do so, but that doesn't get rid of it's usefulness. Of course, it can be accomplished with more than gold, guns, other metals, etc. Usually something is chosen for long term storage and staying value compared to cash.
But, i guess you will try to spend gold directly as currency? That's not how it works. You're right, you did fail. Gold, other metals, etc., stuff that keeps it's value over the long term, is a great investment for storing your money, not spending it. If you want to spend any of your money in a different form, you have to get it converted to cash. Any precious metal dealer will buy gold back from you at market price, even if it's the same place you bought it from. What really helps is if there actually is a precious metal dealer anywhere around. But, anyone investing in gold, is unlikely to need to turn that gold into cash again (mostly the rich do any kind of serious investing in the metal, your average person may have a gold coin that their grandfather gave them or something).
Turning all of your money into gold however is only hypothetical. Not a life or career choice chosen by me or suggested for others.
But, again, these are literally currencies for different purposes. All money has extrinsic value, some money's extrinsic value is intrinsicly valued more compared to other forms. That's what you're getting at. The extrinsic value of cash and gold is undeniable. However, different purposes for different currencies in this case. You intrinsicly value cash more than gold because of the fact that it's excepted anywhere. Gold is not excepted everywhere, but gold is a great way to store money. Different currencies for different purposes. I wouldn't give gold a lower value intrinsicly because of this. The value of money is more than determined by just what you can do with it.
Again, i don't hate fiat currencies. I just don't like the ones that scam people the most compared to the ones that scam people the least. And i'm getting at more than the backing of fiat currencies too. I wasn't talking about for one second wanting a return to the gold standard. I was talking about how my government used gold it's people had to **** them over with. And then questioning what actually backs my money? What actually is my money worth? Who's assigning the value?
Yes there are risks with fiat currencies. But, again, i didn't say they were all bad currencies if they are fiat. Some will scam you more than others. This has a lot to do with what people didn't understand earlier such as what is my money actually worth? who's assigning the value? and lastly, what actually gives it value (is it more than words that gives a piece of paper value or something else, and is that value good enough). People who assign the value what the damn bills in a currency are worth is where a lot of the scamming comes from. Whether you or not can directly convert your bills to gold at your treasury i know is of no consequence to you, it's even of no consequence to me. Again, showing something off as useless just because it's useless to you doesn't mean it is for others. And it wasn't about the usefulness of how people could convert their dollars to gold that i was getting at. What i was getting at was what did this represent to people, the government, the world with the nixon shock of 1971 by ending direct gold convertability? And what were any consequences or benefits of actually doing so? This was something that directly happened to a currency to affect it's value. The nixon shock was a good example of a government ****ing with their fiat currency in the area of high questionability (was this a bad or good ****ing with, for who did it actually benefit, were people scammed when this happened) other than knowing why it happened in this case (to officially move away from the gold standard). Executive order 6102 was purely just an example of a government scamming people through their fiat currency (what the currency was backed by in 1933 was not the focus).
I'm not saying at all, stay away from fiat currencies. It's all about diversifying your investments and money. I'm recommending being careful and being aware. I would be an idiot not to think about my government defaulting on it's debt and what it means for my money if it does. Being careless with this realistic possibility is not recommended.
But, all you can focus on is living in the woods as removing yourself from an economy for no reason, trying to spend gold at the closest gas station for some hot dogs. Again, there's moving to other economies when you remove yourself from one. That's the evolution of thought i had, you had something else for the purpose of showing uselessness. Just because you don't have a use for something and can't evolve the thought of it doesn't mean that other people will be the same.
But, if you couldn't think about storing your money. Simply just that since i was getting at storing money as gold (which is still intelligent, and storing all money as gold was only something to think about what would actually happen if people did, but not to actually do it). Do you think that storing money is bad? Do you live from paycheck to paycheck? All i know is i was heavily misunderstood.
And no, not all currencies are fiat. And no, not all currencies have to be coins and bills. Yes, international trade happens with fiat currency. That's fine, i was also getting at that international trade also happens with gold. Between banks, governments, and other big stuff which even happens with fiat currency.
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While this thread is teaching me more about what currency actually is than school did, I'm gonna back out of it with a fun but completely unnecessary post.
I MUST GO, MY PEOPLE NEE-
(http://25.media.tumblr.com/066ef2faa8bd30bc1799bca5bb11dc69/tumblr_mp45913H5Z1s15gmlo1_400.gif)
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suggest you learn about it from some reputable economical source rather than the ramblings of some libertarian bitcoin type and some people who know he's wrong but not well enough to properly get him to back down