Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Flipside on March 22, 2014, 01:35:56 am
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26693318
Pope says that if the Mafia continue to live a 'blood stained life with blood-stained money' they will end up in Hell.
I'm not an especially religious person, but I do respect this mans' courage.
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And the string of incidents where Pope Francis proves he's the best Pope continues!
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So, does that mean he's going to close the Vatican bank and have their directors arrested? No? Well, then this doesn't really take all that much courage, considering it costs him jack all.
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You confuse the man with the establishment.
To simply stand up and state an opinion like this is a dangerous situation to put yourself in, whilst the Pope may be better protected than other priests who have met with 'unfortunate accidents' when denouncing the Mafia, for someone with as much influence as the Pope to say so, and to effectively go against the very establishment he is head of takes more courage than I think you realise.
The whole idea that he is going to suddenly be able to tackle the entire problem simultaneously is an unreal expectation of any leader, but even that simple statement has probably made an awful lot of powerful people very nervous and angry.
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Very good. I'd say, the Church is really getting better. It's still too early to say for certain, but Pope Francis definitely has the potential to become as revered as John Paul II. Though his predecessor messed quite a few things up, he has the chance to fix it and further build upon what JPII had started.
This gesture is very brave, but it also has quite some historical significance. Traditionally, Mafia dons were "good Catholics" and often had ties with Vatican. Well, looks like it's going to change. This has the potential to weaken the Mafia somewhat.
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You confuse the man with the establishment.
To simply stand up and state an opinion like this is a dangerous situation to put yourself in, whilst the Pope may be better protected than other priests who have met with 'unfortunate accidents' when denouncing the Mafia, for someone with as much influence as the Pope to say so, and to effectively go against the very establishment he is head of takes more courage than I think you realise.
The whole idea that he is going to suddenly be able to tackle the entire problem simultaneously is an unreal expectation of any leader, but even that simple statement has probably made an awful lot of powerful people very nervous and angry.
Well, I'm still not impressed. Though it would take an awful lot for a Pope to impress me.
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hmm.
What would it take for a pope to impress you?
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The interesting part is that he is that he is calling them to repent. Rather than what everyone else in his position most likely do, which is to say that they should burn in hell and call everyone to go on a full scale war.
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This just shows how great man he is. A true Christian, not only does he not deny redemption even to the worst scum of the Earth, as long as they repent, but actually wishes they'd do that, rather than end up in Hell. This is what Christ actually taught, not all that "religious" bigotry we see all over the world. I only wish all priests, and especially Vatican officials, were like that (especially considering this basically amounts to acting like they're supposed to be preaching...).
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hmm.
What would it take for a pope to impress you?
Well, let's see: Equal treatment of women (-> priesthood), none of the love the sin, hate the sinner crap towards homosexuals, no more opposition to birth control & abortion, an end to preaching superiority over other religions & creeds (or their absence), democratisation of church official selection (-> investiture), cleansing the Vatican of the corrupt catholic Mafia, instead of just voicing his dissatisfaction with them. An apology for cooperating with Nazi Germany (including revocation of the concordat), apology for not doing these thing sooner.
That's off the top of my head, there might be more to do.
However, since I'm feeling generous, any pope who'd be assassinated while trying these steps would also join the (very exclusive) group of popes who have impressed me.
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hmm.
What would it take for a pope to impress you?
Well, let's see: Equal treatment of women (-> priesthood), none of the love the sin, hate the sinner crap towards homosexuals, no more opposition to birth control & abortion, an end to preaching superiority over other religions & creeds (or their absence), democratisation of church official selection (-> investiture), cleansing the Vatican of the corrupt catholic Mafia, instead of just voicing his dissatisfaction with them. An apology for cooperating with Nazi Germany (including revocation of the concordat), apology for not doing these thing sooner.
That's off the top of my head, there might be more to do.
However, since I'm feeling generous, any pope who'd be assassinated while trying these steps would also join the (very exclusive) group of popes who have impressed me.
So you want the pope to effectively betray the entire Catholic church, even in the parts that don't hurt other people, and solve for almost all of the church's failings, and then he'll impress you. Or he can get killed doing it.
Democratizing the Catholic church is actually probably a really ****ing bad idea, since it opens up the church to the same kind of election politics bull**** the rest of the democratic world deals with (beyond what the church already deals with), and more importantly opens the United States Catholic population to make decisions for a lot of the rest of the world's Catholic population. I see now way in which this is a good thing, except 'yay democracy', even though this isn't a political government.
And preaching the superiority of Christianity over other religions or lack of religion is kind of literally the entire point of Christianity, so that's not going to change.
Methinks you set your goals to high.
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hmm.
What would it take for a pope to impress you?
Well, let's see: Equal treatment of women (-> priesthood), none of the love the sin, hate the sinner crap towards homosexuals, no more opposition to birth control & abortion, an end to preaching superiority over other religions & creeds (or their absence), democratisation of church official selection (-> investiture), cleansing the Vatican of the corrupt catholic Mafia, instead of just voicing his dissatisfaction with them. An apology for cooperating with Nazi Germany (including revocation of the concordat), apology for not doing these thing sooner.
That's off the top of my head, there might be more to do.
However, since I'm feeling generous, any pope who'd be assassinated while trying these steps would also join the (very exclusive) group of popes who have impressed me.
Well, we've got a couple of those... http://www.religionnews.com/2013/10/01/excerpts-pope-francis-new-interview
Proselytism is solemn nonsense, it makes no sense. We need to get to know each other, listen to each other and improve our knowledge of the world around us. Sometimes after a meeting I want to arrange another one because new ideas are born and I discover new needs. This is important: to get to know people, listen, expand the circle of ideas. The world is crisscrossed by roads that come closer together and move apart, but the important thing is that they lead towards the Good.
I believe … that our goal is not to proselytize but to listen to needs, desires and disappointments, despair, hope. We must restore hope to young people, help the old, be open to the future, spread love. Be poor among the poor. We need to include the excluded and preach peace. … I have the humility and ambition to want to do something.
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Each of us has a vision of good and of evil. We have to encourage people to move towards what they think is Good. … Everyone has his own idea of good and evil and must choose to follow the good and fight evil as he conceives them. That would be enough to make the world a better place.
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We will also discuss the role of women in the Church. Remember that the Church is feminine.
At least he's pointing in the right direction, even if action is lacking so far.
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I like this pope, period. How I wish he lives a long and prosper life.
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What Pope Francis is doing is monumental. The catholic church is one of the most bureaucratic organizations in human history, mired in tradition, and any change takes time. Francis is more radical a reformer than any Pope in recent history, and seems determined to drag the church into the 20th century kicking and screaming. What his historical impact will be, we can't know yet, but I think it's safe to say that he will leave a lasting mark.
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I'd say the only reasonable criticism that can be aimed at him is that he's been conspicuously silent on the sexual abuse scandal.
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So you want the pope to effectively betray the entire Catholic church,
Yes. I find the catholic church to be one of the most destructive organisations in the world. even in the parts that don't hurt other people, and solve for almost all of the church's failings, and then he'll impress you. Or he can get killed doing it.
Democratizing the Catholic church is actually probably a really ****ing bad idea, since it opens up the church to the same kind of election politics bull**** the rest of the democratic world deals with (beyond what the church already deals with), and more importantly opens the United States Catholic population to make decisions for a lot of the rest of the world's Catholic population. I see now way in which this is a good thing, except 'yay democracy', even though this isn't a political government.
And preaching the superiority of Christianity over other religions or lack of religion is kind of literally the entire point of Christianity, so that's not going to change.
Methinks you set your goals to high.
About the democracy thing: Bishops get sent to their bishoprics by the pope, so they tend to be (read always were in the past) the most conservative asshats available to the Vatican. Look at a place like Cologne, which got a bishop the congregation despised, because modern Catholics in liberal western countries tend too be more enlightened than the guys the Vatican sends them.
At least he's pointing in the right direction, even if action is lacking so far.
Well, looks like he's an all right person. He certainly seems sane, for a pope. Maybe he'll do less damage than his predecessors.
What Pope Francis is doing is monumental. The catholic church is one of the most bureaucratic organizations in human history, mired in tradition, and any change takes time. Francis is more radical a reformer than any Pope in recent history, and seems determined to drag the church into the 20th century kicking and screaming. What his historical impact will be, we can't know yet, but I think it's safe to say that he will leave a lasting mark.
This is such a good set-up for a snark about not setting your goal too high...
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Well, it's not hard to do less damage than Benedict XVI did... Perhaps the greatest thing about him was that he realized that and resigned.
Also, I imagine the situation with bishops will change. Catholic Church is essentially an absolute monarchy, and those are always as good as the ruler. We seem to have hit the jackpot on that one, and I hope that he finds enough good men for his bishoprics.
What Pope Francis is doing is monumental. The catholic church is one of the most bureaucratic organizations in human history, mired in tradition, and any change takes time. Francis is more radical a reformer than any Pope in recent history, and seems determined to drag the church into the 20th century kicking and screaming. What his historical impact will be, we can't know yet, but I think it's safe to say that he will leave a lasting mark.
Well, that, or at least the most radical reformer that survived. John Paul I seemed to be a very radical reformer, too, but someone clearly didn't approve of that. This was also probably why John Paul II didn't quite manage to bring The Church out of the rut; he had to watch his back, especially at the start. Still, between Popes JPII and Francis, the The Church could perhaps be brought out of middle ages, especially if Francis' future (far future, I hope) successor will share his views.
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Well, that, or at least the most radical reformer that survived. John Paul I seemed to be a very radical reformer, too, but someone clearly didn't approve of that.
Um, sorry, what? Last time I checked John Paul I died in bed of a heart attack.
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Democratizing the Catholic church is actually probably a really ****ing bad idea, since it opens up the church to the same kind of election politics bull**** the rest of the democratic world deals with (beyond what the church already deals with), and more importantly opens the United States Catholic population to make decisions for a lot of the rest of the world's Catholic population.
I'm not sure what your point is with your last one, since the US has less than a quarter in the total population than the number of catholics worldwide, and last time I checked, 100% of the US's population wasn't catholic.
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Yeah, US is mostly protestant. Still, really modern Catholics are a minority. IIRC, the majority is from less developed countries in South America. I'd think their views on faith would still be pretty conservative.
If The Church was democratic, we'd never see reforms like those just coming about. Democracies are prone to getting stuck in their current state, and The Church is already suffering from this. Also, unlike with countries, stability is not really a concern with Catholic Church. If it becomes too unstable, people can leave. As such, monarchy is one of the best ways it can be governed, as it can be much more dynamic than any democracy.