Hard Light Productions Forums
Modding, Mission Design, and Coding => FS2 Open Coding - The Source Code Project (SCP) => Topic started by: Inquisitor on July 13, 2002, 09:45:51 pm
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We talked about this, Ithink, but i wanted to pop it out again because a recent post in the "features" thread, which should probably get closed, too much info there as it is.
We're not making a game to sell, so, I think we'd be okay with an MP3 library like fmod.
The advantage I see of mp3 over ogg is that people already HAVE mp3's they could use, and you could have the same set of music for your winamp or whatever.
I use the mp3 player built into my torque build to listen to playlists while playing, kinda nice, have some fs2 mp3's in there.
Any constructive thoughts, the fmod stuff is cross platform, and (while I wasn;t the one who integrated it into Torque) looks easy to integrate.
http://www.fmod.org/
Just a random thought, redoing the sound system isn't even on the current plan (such as the current plan is) but since our code base is in CVS, someone could tinker with it and submit it as a patch :)
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MP3, it's more widespread at the moment. :nod:
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Definitely MP3 Support. However would it be dynamic? That is to say would a different track be selected on the arrival of an enemy wing/the victory of the mission etc...?
It might be an idea to do a bit of an overhaul on that kind of thing - so that if non-dynamic is selected the track playing is played regardless. Mission objects, friendly/enemy ship warp ins are denoted by a bleep similar to a missile lock or something like that... I think it'd be a lot more continuous that way.
Also, could we change tracks in game? Perhaps if not directly in game we could add an options screen to the interface alongside the control binding, video controls, sound controls etc...? It could load shortcuts/MP3s and (assuming they're eilgable) display them on screen to by organised/selected by the player along with options to repeat track, repeat list and play at random...
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I want it mostly for the file compression; I have a 3.7 meg MP3 that I want as mainhall music. However, when converted to WAV, it's 40 megs. Ouch.
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I want it mostly for the file compression; I have a 3.7 meg MP3 that I want as mainhall music. However, when converted to WAV, it's 40 megs. Ouch.
Compress it using ADPCM compression (Goldwave and others list it). It'll be closer to 4.0mb than 40mb.
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mp3's just seem popular, there are a number of reasons people favor ogg. One of the chief ones, is licensing mp3 when you make a commercial product.
This isn't a commercial product, so I think we can use mp3 to our hearts content, unless there is some really compelling reason to go with Ogg.
http://www.vorbis.com/
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I'm sorry, but you forgot the real rival to MP3...
Windows Media Audio.
With it's FREE audio codecs, you can achieve results at least 40% better than mp3.
The only disadvantage is that it requires a little more programming to make it cross-platform, but it's not a great problem, you can download from Microsoft the SDK tools for that work.
Any type of CPU is supported, wich means that WMA can be played even with non x86 machines...
Think about it.
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Not cross platform, and we are working on a *nix port.
So, it's not a contender.
Sorry, misread that, IS it cross platform? Link please. I can't find anything at all saying that even the FORMAT is portable on the MS site:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/dnwmt/html/wmsdk_format.asp
Thunder: Yes, all those things are possible, but, I am talking about core audio support, once that is in, any of those things are possible.
For reference, it took someone less than a day to implement MP3 support with fmod, so if some industrious young programmer wants to take a crack at it :)
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Stick with MP3, its more widespread and got good compression ratios.
Problem with WMA - I find it actually does have a lot of distortion.
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Sorry, misread that, IS it cross platform? Link please. I can't find anything at all saying that even the FORMAT is portable on the MS site:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/dnwmt/html/wmsdk_format.asp
This should be enough...
With it you can even make a player for digital audio devices.
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/dnwmt/html/wmsdk_wmepak.asp
Hope it helps.
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Originally posted by IceFire
Compress it using ADPCM compression (Goldwave and others list it). It'll be closer to 4.0mb than 40mb.
Hey, that worked! Thanks, dude. :nod:
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Support for Embedded systems
Windows Media support is available for embedded systems running Microsoft Windows® CE or other operating systems. Windows CE 3.0 and later includes the latest support for Windows Media through the DirectX® Platform Adaptation Kit. For embedded systems not running Windows CE, WMEPAK is available as it was designed to be operating system independent.
Hmm, I'll believe it when I see it :) Lemme poke around.
Still favoring mp3 ;)
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well...
just look around...
there is over one hundred of digital devices currently using windows media...
and, if you are going to support it, you would appreciate also the video codecs, wich are the best available...
I've made some comparison tests and i can say that windows media video is about 10% better than divx as quality/bitrate (wich it means that you will get better quality in the same disk space or equal quality with less disk space), with undoubtely better audio (audiophiles here knows how crappy is it mp3 at 96kbs)...
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I am still having trouble finding that it actually works on anything but Windows and CE (and CE derivative) based devices. All the sample code for embedded systems is CE and CE 2000 (or whatever they called it) specific.
There's nothing stopping folks from putting somethign like this in as an option, maybe a configurable thing that calls a DLL. Download our fs2_open from CVS and see if you can get it to work :)
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This may be of further help...
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/wmform/htm/windowsmediadevicemanagerprogrammingreference.asp
If you know C or C++ you may want to download WMEPAK at http://msdn.microsoft.com/downloads/default.asp?url=/downloads/sample.asp?url=/msdn-files/027/001/577/msdncompositedoc.xml
There you will find the code for most CPUs, including x86.
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Window Media is not an option, if I have any say. I have a distrust of Microsoft's so-called "open" protocols and standards that approaches paranoia :nervous:
As far as Ogg Vorbis vs. MP3, there's probably no difference -- one (Ogg) is free software, w/ no patent/royaly issues;, the other (MP3) is much more widely supported. But since there are sufficient translators to convert from one format to the other, it really make little difference.
I would normally prefer Ogg Vorbis because I'm such a pinko, but either one would work for me.
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What if someone makes a portable miniplayer usable inside the game?
In this case, would you support it?
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penguin: yeah, I llike ogg, but, since this isn;t a commercial project, we are ok with mp3 via something like fmod.
Hell, it could support both as far as I am concerned ;) The integration is just a few calls to the dll or so file. Maybe a command line switch or launcher to "pick your music preference"
Just thinking out loud.
And Z: if someone releases a patch to CVS that adds WMA support, so long as it's properly documented, yes, we can include it, if nothing else, as a special build option, or something, but my thinking for the main exe is mp3.
This is a community project, after all. Find me someone who wants to work in directx and WMA (that will actually solve a problem we have on the list of things to do ;) a DX 8 upgrade ;)).
Also, this isn't even on the list yet, officially, so, sounds liek people have a goo9d interim solution with wavs sol long as they are using the right compression ;)
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Ok, i'll start thinkering with DX media next month, if i obtain something good i'll make a patch that i will add to my Rise Of GCA MOD...
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Excellent :)
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Originally posted by penguin
Window Media is not an option, if I have any say. I have a distrust of Microsoft's so-called "open" protocols and standards that approaches paranoia :nervous:
Agreed, M$ have an annoying way of reinventing or 'upgrading' existing formats to the point where they are unusable on anything other than a windows shell.
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Guys, check Zarax's profile. Microsoft drone alert!
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well so long as you don't break the WAV suport
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about the dynamic music, would it not be possible, too keep the dynamic stuff, except play from mp3 files instead of wav. you should also have the option to load up a playlist or mp3 file is you get tired of dynamic and just wanna listen to some rage involking gwar. i think using any form of audio compression would allow mods to have more voice acting, more music, more sound effects and so on, all with a much maller download.
and while we are on audio, someone jack up the sound table limits.
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If you just want mp3's for size/quality reasons, remember that wave files can be compressed with at least one MP3 codec. :) Might be a little easier to incorperate then actual mp3 file support.
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Originally posted by Nuke
about the dynamic music, would it not be possible, too keep the dynamic stuff, except play from mp3 files instead of wav.
It should be... the audio player (which uses the WAV/MP3/whatever codec) is separate from the bits that determine which sound to play.
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Originally posted by EdrickV
If you just want mp3's for size/quality reasons, remember that wave files can be compressed with at least one MP3 codec. :) Might be a little easier to incorperate then actual mp3 file support.
Erm... MP3-in-WAV support is through an installed MediaPlayer codec. Freespace obviously does not rely on MediaPlayer for sound playback.
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OGG
A 92 kbp/s OGG file is the equivalent to a 192 kbp/s mp3 in terms of quality, meaning better quality with less space...
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(Not talking about mp3 integration, just about changing from the dynamic music structure to a straight-forward playlist structure):
I think we shuld just leave the dynamic music structure as it is . If ever I want to listen to different music while playing FS2, I just turn off the in-game music in the options menu, and pop a cd into the drive. Writing up a bunch of code to allow output style switches and all the rest seems like an unnecessary amount of work to accomplish very, very little. Besides, FS2's dynamic music is one of the coolest bits about the environmentals of the game.
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Originally posted by Sesquipedalian
I think we shuld just leave the dynamic music structure as it is . If ever I want to listen to different music while playing FS2, I just turn off the in-game music in the options menu, and pop a cd into the drive. Writing up a bunch of code to allow output style switches and all the rest seems like an unnecessary amount of work to accomplish very, very little. Besides, FS2's dynamic music is one of the coolest bits about the environmentals of the game.
Yes yes yes; well said.
This is something that ain't broke, and don't need fixin'
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Anyone looked at either SDK?
Random Tiger is making progress on the (admittedly windows only) movie player, maybe his code could be leveraged for a windows only MP3 player?
I still think fmod is the cleanest implementation for MP3.
Ogg of course is still an option.
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Interesting developement re: MP3 licensing:
Slashdot story: http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/08/27/1626241&mode=thread&tid=155
mp3licensing.com "Royalty Rates": http://www.mp3licensing.com/royalty/software.html
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ugh!.. the only this about ogg is thats its not widely used (and if it is then i don't know about it)
its supported in winamp and goldwave at least
http://www.xiph.org/ogg/vorbis/
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Actually, I will guess that fmod pays the license, then sells the software to the developers. I will further guess that this type of licensing will only apply to commercial projects.
Worth looking into though.
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use MP3... you can still mix them in-game and everything
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this has got to be my first double-post in the history of HLP
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http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/08/27/1626241&mode=flat&tid=155 :(
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who owns the trademark or copyright or whatever to "MP3"? microsoft?
well we can use one of the 'less known' file types... i mean, just look under winamp's "files supported" list.... the newer versions have dozens and dozens of 'supported file types'... i mean obviously types like MIDIs wouldn't work, but nonetheless,
Inquisitor, do you want me to do some research regarding file types (compression types, decoders, price, etc.)
?
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Originally posted by Stealth
well we can use one of the 'less known' file types... i mean, just look under winamp's "files supported" list.... the newer versions have dozens and dozens of 'supported file types'... i mean obviously types like MIDIs wouldn't work, but nonetheless,
Actually, there used to be some support for using MIDI files in the source code.
Some quotes from EventMusic.h:
* 11 2/25/97 11:10a Lawrance
* using text of the mission name to match up which midi file gets played
* for which mission
* 5 2/05/97 3:12p Lawrance
* supporting changes in MIDI system that remove any high-level
* dependencies
It looks like the actual code to play the MIDI files was later removed though because the MIDI related .cpp files are basically empty.
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Oh yeah MIDI the old days, I recall I had to play Tie-fighter in dos to get General midi working. Windows was to stupid then to figure out my then futuristic sound card.
It could simultaneously play 10-15 wave files,
Now guess what happened when I accidentally marked all wav files used by xwing vs. tie fighter, and clicked open. It just played 15 files at a time, until it had run through all wave files in the directory. This took quite some time.
It sounded liked the Endor battle at warp speed.
Now if that wasn’t a laugh, then well, a Jehovah witness knocked on my door in order to "convert" me to there believe.
I opened the door for him while all these sounds came out the loud speaker. Sounds like “BOOM” death screams, laser fire, fighters screaming by, Turbo lasers etc. He said hello, listened, looked weird, and then walked away.
I couldn’t concentrate for the rest of the day because every time I thought of that event, I could think of nothing else. For some odd reason, it was just so dam hilarious.
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due to the recent developement that Fraunhofer is charing USD 0.75 per mp3 decoder i think it's tie to user ogg
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Originally posted by Stealth
who owns the trademark or copyright or whatever to "MP3"? microsoft?
AFAIK, the copyright on the format is owned by the MPEG group, but the encoding is patented by Fraunhofer and you must have a license from them for any codecs.
Originally posted by EdrickV
Actually, there used to be some support for using MIDI files in the source code.
Probably goes back to the Descent days... still some snippets of code from that...
I now think Ogg (http://www.xiph.org/ogg/) is the way to go. It's not as popular as MP3 (by a long shot) but this may change soon, thanks to this recent development.
From a legal point of view, it looks like individuals using MP3 codecs are not required to pay a $0.75 fee, but the distributers of software containing codecs are (that would mean us :blah: ) I don't think any of us (nor our hosting providers) want to be on the hook for this fee, not to mention the legal headaches.
IANAL, etc.
Of course everyone who downloads fs2_open (if it had MP3 support) could tape 3 US quarters to a postcard and mail it to Fraunhofer... that might piss 'em off...
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Originally posted by penguin
Probably goes back to the Descent days... still some snippets of code from that...
Actually I think it was an FS1 thing that was put in there reatively early in development. Probably as a place holder for the actual digital music system or maybe at the time they had intended to use MIDI music. Though they did get some code from Descent for computing some sort of checksum for something else. :)
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Originally posted by Kazan
due to the recent developement that Fraunhofer is charing USD 0.75 per mp3 decoder i think it's tie to user ogg
Please tell me I'm reading this wrong! Oh man.... uh.... right I'm off to tell the world how we should all invent our own codec.
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i agree that would be nice! it doens't have to be a widely known or used or supported format, if anything it should be one that's not well known
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I put my vote with OGG, as well.
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yeah Fraunhofer as being schweinen - i was directly quoting /.
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BLAH!!! Never in my life have I used OGG format....:blah:
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Originally posted by vyper
Please tell me I'm reading this wrong! Oh man.... uh.... right I'm off to tell the world how we should all invent our own codec.
There are many open-source Ogg codecs around, I doubt we'd be writing our own (just as we would not be writing our own MP3 codec)
There are many conversion tools WAV/MP3/OGG/whatever -- what difference does it make? If you're distributing the sound files as part of a mod pack, who cares? Especially since most media players (winamp, etc.) support it already...
Originally posted by AqueousShadow
BLAH!!! Never in my life have I used OGG format....
Yeah, and 4 years ago you had never used MP3, and 12 years ago you had never used WAV... :p
Just to reiterate: the legal onus on the developers and distributers makes it too risky to support MP3 at this time. I don't like it either.
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Originally posted by penguin
Yeah, and 4 years ago you had never used MP3, and 12 years ago you had never used WAV... :p
12 years most of us didn't even have a computer for crying out loud :)
it's like saying: "2 million years ago you'd never have heard of 'humans'"
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Originally posted by Stealth
12 years most of us didn't even have a computer for crying out loud :)
it's like saying: "2 million years ago you'd never have heard of 'humans'"
children :rolleyes: ;)
I do remember when Windows 3.1 came out (in '91 or '92) -- you could have cool sounds when you received new mail (a phone would ring), etc. We thought that was the coolest -- for a while... then it became annoying and everyone turned it off. This was also before sound cards were standard equipment, so the only speaker was the ****ty one inside the PC, with no volume control.
Before that it was just beeps of various tones (and your system would freeze up when it was playing).
My point was: every "standard" is new at some point.
BTW I do not remember before there were humans.
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It's the distributors, people like fmod, that pay this fee I believe, though it is entirely unclear.
And the way fmods licensing works may change because of this, but for now, they have not changed their licensing (free to non-commercial games).
This is a royalty grab, since nobody is actually writing mp3 or ogg support at the moment, we can pretty safely take a comfy "wait and see" chair ;)
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Originally posted by penguin
children :rolleyes: ;)
I do remember when Windows 3.1 came out (in '91 or '92) -- you could have cool sounds when you received new mail (a phone would ring), etc. We thought that was the coolest -- for a while... then it became annoying and everyone turned it off. This was also before sound cards were standard equipment, so the only speaker was the ****ty one inside the PC, with no volume control.
Before that it was just beeps of various tones (and your system would freeze up when it was playing).
My point was: every "standard" is new at some point.
BTW I do not remember before there were humans.
Well you're quick to judge. Ogg format isn't standard at all. It's been around for quite sometime, maybe several years now. I'm no "child" or "fool," so don't go around assuming. :o
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Not that we should turn this into a pissing match, but if you are gonna reply, at least look at the intervening posts. Looks like sarcasm to me, and a reply to Stealth for the most part, so relax, we're on the same team here...
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Originally posted by Inquisitor
Anyone looked at either SDK?
Random Tiger is making progress on the (admittedly windows only) movie player, maybe his code could be leveraged for a windows only MP3 player?
I still think fmod is the cleanest implementation for MP3.
Ogg of course is still an option.
After a very quick look through the SDK it seems directshow has some kind of support of mp3 but nothing in direct sound. I reckon using directshow in game would be more trouble than its worth.
I personally dont think much/any change in this area is needed, but if someones wants to change it I suggest doing it the easiest way to code.
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Originally posted by AqueousShadow
Well you're quick to judge. Ogg format isn't standard at all. It's been around for quite sometime, maybe several years now. I'm no "child" or "fool," so don't go around assuming. :o
Right, no offense was meant (well, not much anyhow ;)) to anyone. Stealth posted that few of us had computers twelve years ago, and that was my rebuttal to him...
Like I've said (at least twice so far), we need to think about the legal ramifications of what we release. Since none of us are getting paid to do this, I don't think we are in any position to release something that may have financial liabilities. I know it's not worth it to me, sorry. And I'm sure that our hosting providers, by the grace of whom we can actually do this (HLP, Gamespy, and Warpcore), would agree.
Anyhow, as Inquisitor has pointed out, this is still on the drawing board, so why doesn't everyone take a deep breath, think happy thoughts, and wait for the dust to settle.
We can always continue to use WAV files for in-game effects and music, as RT mentioned; the movies/cutscenes are another topic altogether.
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Originally posted by penguin
we need to think about the legal ramifications of what we release.
:yes: :yes:
Anyhow, as Inquisitor has pointed out, this is still on the drawing board, so why doesn't everyone take a deep breath, think happy thoughts, and wait for the dust to settle.
(http://www.volitionwatch.com/vwbb/images/smilies/hippy.gif)
We can always continue to use WAV files for in-game effects and music, as RT mentioned; the movies/cutscenes are another topic altogether.
:nod:
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Ogg wins!
http://www.cdfreaks.com/news2.php3?ID=4628
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Then again:
http://www.cdfreaks.com/news2.php3?ID=4655
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YAY!! :D
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:confused:
This patent-only license is needed in case the mp3 software is developed in-house or licensed from a third party.
Decoder · US$ 0.75 per unit or US$ 50 000.00 one-time paid-up
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Which, as I thought, does not apply to us.
When you use a free library for a non commercial application, you don;t worry about this ;)
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Originally posted by Inquisitor
Which, as I thought, does not apply to us.
When you use a free library for a non commercial application, you don;t worry about this ;)
we could sell it ;7
wouldn't it be possible for us to register another name, and then sell it under that? or would Interplay's rights still hold... there's GOT to be a way around that! i mean, if we're completely redoing the music, interface, etc.
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As the source code says:
/*
* Copyright (C) Volition, Inc. 1999. All rights reserved.
*
* All source code herein is the property of Volition, Inc. You may not sell
* or otherwise commercially exploit the source or things you created based on the
* source.
*
*/
That means we cannot sell anything we make from the source code.
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i think we should email fraunhofer and ask if this royalty payment applies to developers using mp3 in games that will not be sold, just to make sure
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First of all, the liscensing fees apply to hardware MP3 players, i.e. those things that without question are paid money for. Which is why the extra $0.75 won't make much of a difference. Software liscenses remain the same as they always have.
Originally posted by penguin
children :rolleyes: ;)
I do remember when Windows 3.1 came out (in '91 or '92) -- you could have cool sounds when you received new mail (a phone would ring), etc. We thought that was the coolest -- for a while... then it became annoying and everyone turned it off. This was also before sound cards were standard equipment, so the only speaker was the ****ty one inside the PC, with no volume control.
Before that it was just beeps of various tones (and your system would freeze up when it was playing).
My first computer was a Mac 128k (that number referred to that amount of RAM in the machine). It had no HD; the OS was booted from floppy. However, it had built-in text-to-speech that still rivals any PC text-to-speech engine today. Anyone remember Puppy Love? Or Harrier Strike Mission? :D
Progressing ( :doubt: ) to the PC era, my first PC (wasn't mine, personally, but the family's) was a 386sx laptop. 25Mhz, 4Mb RAM, 40Mb HDD (doublespaced to 80Mb), and Windows 3.1. THe screen was a greyscale 8" LCD (640x480 max, of course). I logged in far too many hours playing Dune 2: The Building of a Dynasty (not The Battle for Arrakis; TBoaD had speech!). ;7 But SimCity 2000 needed 4Mb RAM minimum - was I pissed!
After that came a whopping upgrade to a 486 DX2-66Mhz! With a color screen; you have no idea what it's like to see Dune 2 in full color after being limited to greyscale! WOW!!! :wink: It also had an incredible 8Mb RAM - twice the amount I needed to play SC2K!! That computer is also the machine I first played such legendary games as: Aces of the Pacific, Jazz Jackrabbit, Commander Keen, Space Quest IV, Black Knight SE (IIRC), and, best of all: Command & Conquer! Talk about addiction!
But I got ahead of myself: Penguin, did you ever play a game called Pinball Fantasies - without a sound card? It was the most amazing piece of software I had ever encountered. It introduced me to .mods - remember those? The cross between MIDI's and WAVs? But the most amazing thing was that it actually played them via the PC Speaker - decently! :eek2: :eek2:
Tell me if the .mod I attached brings back memories; it's the opening track of Pinball Fanatasies. WinAmp plays them fine.
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Originally posted by Sandwich
But I got ahead of myself: Penguin, did you ever play a game called Pinball Fantasies - without a sound card? It was the most amazing piece of software I had ever encountered. It introduced me to .mods - remember those? The cross between MIDI's and WAVs? But the most amazing thing was that it actually played them via the PC Speaker - decently! :eek2: :eek2:
Tell me if the .mod I attached brings back memories; it's the opening track of Pinball Fanatasies. WinAmp plays them fine.
FreeAmp wouldn't play it :(
I never played too many PC games until Descent, unless you count "SubLogic Flight Simulator" (later bought by Microsoft), or "Tetris" on my old Amiga 1000. And then there was "Reversi" on Win3.0, and "Freecell" on Win95 :)
Actually, I was more of an arcade freak back in my youth... does anyone remember Tempest? That machine at the UM Student Union devoured many many of my quarters that were intended for food...
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Originally posted by penguin
FreeAmp wouldn't play it :(
I personally would suggest ModPlug for MOD files of all kinds. There's a Windows version and an XMMS plug-in for Linux. Anyone here remember Wizard's Castle? I found a way to cheat on the Applesoft Basic version. ;7 Wonder if anyone ever translated it to C/C++. Would be cool to have it on my PS2. :D