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General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Royal Hammer on April 30, 2014, 12:41:29 pm

Title: Sandbox, loot and trading?
Post by: Royal Hammer on April 30, 2014, 12:41:29 pm
My recent purchase of an x-52 pro HOTAS has rekindled my interest in space sims (Star Citizen helped too), and I've already played Diaspora and Wing Commander Saga, and loving them. Are there any mods/total conversions to FS2 that include more of a sandbox universe, dropped loot, and trading? I know, maybe I should just go play Freelancer or X3, but I'm geniunely curious. There's a lot out there.

Also, where should I go/what mod should I play to actually find people online in multiplayer? I need to brush up on my skills!
Title: Re: Sandbox, loot and trading?
Post by: procdrone on April 30, 2014, 12:51:14 pm
Uuuum... I would say that Freespace has nothing to do with Sandbox, looting, and trading... so maybe Axem work may be something closer to your desire... but well... i think there is no mod like this.

As for mutli? idk, i don't play freespace online
Title: Re: Sandbox, loot and trading?
Post by: The E on April 30, 2014, 12:54:10 pm
Yeah, FS isn't really well-suited to sandboxish things.
Title: Re: Sandbox, loot and trading?
Post by: General Battuta on April 30, 2014, 12:54:49 pm
Nobody plays multiplayer right now because the netcode needs an upgrade to make it really fun.

FreeSpace is, at its heart, a mission-driven space simulator. It doesn't do sandbox or loot out of the box; that's not what it was built for, and not why anyone came to love it. FreeSpace is about nimble fighters and spectacularly huge ships slugging it out in tightly scripted missions.

However, enterprising modders have pushed our open-source engine in some crazy directions. For an example of some of our wilder gameplay, check out The Antagonist and JAD 2.22.
Title: Re: Sandbox, loot and trading?
Post by: Mikes on April 30, 2014, 02:20:11 pm
FreeSpace is, at its heart, a mission-driven space simulator. It doesn't do sandbox or loot out of the box;

And am I the only one who would add a "and thank god for that" at the end of above's sentence ? ;)

I'm not sure if I'm too old school or what but everytime I hear a friend ranting about games having to be "sandbox" and worse "loot driven" ... 

... it reminds me of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWtvrPTbQ_c


In short: The ideals behind most of the work created on this site are pretty much the same of what I would consider the ideals of "good" entertainment that respects the player, while in the commercial video game world, nowadays, we almost always see some kind of cheap psychological hook (i.e. loot and or stat progression) to artificially extend playtime with cheaply made repetitive filler content. - with some of the worst (MMO) offenders offering little else but a cheaply designed grind for items and stats that abuses our own brains achievement/reward mentality to do the most idiotic/menial/repetitive tasks for more stat "increases".
(The old Everquest satire is still as relevant as ever: http://progressquest.com/ )

Kind of a pet peeve of mine so bear with me for going off on this tangent.

I just couldn't help but comment to a situation I would consider similar to someone walking into a high class restaurant and asking if they could have McDonalds style fast food. ;)
Title: Re: Sandbox, loot and trading?
Post by: Dragon on April 30, 2014, 04:00:47 pm
Well, Goober once made a prototype RPG-style tech-demo, and now Axem is expanding on it with scripts and stuff. Who knows, maybe we'll see the day in which missions can be more procedural and less cinematic (can't say there won't be a place for cinematic missions, but only as "special events"). Since scripts are also being developed for capship AI and commanding, maybe in a few years it'll be possible to build a Freelancer-like RPG on FS engine.
Title: Re: Sandbox, loot and trading?
Post by: The E on April 30, 2014, 04:03:24 pm
It may be possible, but it's always going to be something the engine just isn't built to do.
Title: Re: Sandbox, loot and trading?
Post by: Royal Hammer on April 30, 2014, 04:12:19 pm
FreeSpace is, at its heart, a mission-driven space simulator.

Ok, I gotcha. And I love the game as it is! I was just curious if more variety was available within this great platform. I will continue to play the **** out of Wing Commander Saga, and perhaps I'll try the Babylon Project next.
Title: Re: Sandbox, loot and trading?
Post by: Goober5000 on April 30, 2014, 05:49:10 pm
Don't forget Lt.D's Bem Cavalgar.
Title: Re: Sandbox, loot and trading?
Post by: Black Wolf on April 30, 2014, 06:28:30 pm
Well, Goober once made a prototype RPG-style tech-demo, and now Axem is expanding on it with scripts and stuff. Who knows, maybe we'll see the day in which missions can be more procedural and less cinematic (can't say there won't be a place for cinematic missions, but only as "special events"). Since scripts are also being developed for capship AI and commanding, maybe in a few years it'll be possible to build a Freelancer-like RPG on FS engine.

I actually started thinking about doing exactly this when I saw what Axem was doing, but pretty quickly came to the conclusion that the amount of work involved in making any kind of sandbox/rpg style game more complext than has already been done (ala Bem Cavalgar) would rapidly go from "huge" to "insane" to "utterly impractical" over the course of adding even a few basic RPG like features (things like an inventory, currency etc.), let alone an even pseudo-dynamic environment, which would be hard enough. Even with Axem's advances (clickable communication menus for talking to toher ships, the system map etc.), FS really doesn't have the framework to do an RPG justice.

The big problem is that, at present with a very small number of exceptions, everything FS does is based on what can be stored within a single mission file - as you'd expect for a game of this sort. But these mission files barely talk to each other, and so much of the RPG experience depends on location independent factors, like characters that can move around, or react to events that have taken place elsewhere.

I suspect that doing it right would require some heavy duty scripting/coding to allow the storage of arbitrary data within the pilot file or an external plain text file of some kind, to make things like currency and inventory independent of the mission system, but FS would still lack an equivalent independent "character" system that would let you store things about individual ships in a way that is associated with that ship, rather than with the mission file. Even if we had that, the amount of sexping associated with all the potential conversations you could have with every potential ship in a given location at any point during the campaign would be mind boggling, and incredibly hard to test.

In short, if the FS Sandbox RPG is a cake we're baking, we're slowly gathering the appropriate ingredients, but it'll be a long time (if ever) before we have an appropriate mixing bowl.
Title: Re: Sandbox, loot and trading?
Post by: General Battuta on April 30, 2014, 06:35:11 pm
Storing independent data isn't hard using just FRED alone - you have persistent variables for that, and you can use bitwise to pack a ton of flags into just one. It's mostly the content generation required that makes it impractical.
Title: Re: Sandbox, loot and trading?
Post by: Goober5000 on April 30, 2014, 06:41:25 pm
In addition to persistent variables, saving arbitrary data is already possible thanks to the in-mission jump scripting tools.
Title: Re: Sandbox, loot and trading?
Post by: Phantom Hoover on April 30, 2014, 06:46:35 pm
How well does FSO hold up when missions are run for a very long time, out of curiosity?
Title: Re: Sandbox, loot and trading?
Post by: Black Wolf on April 30, 2014, 06:57:30 pm
It's the sheer number of variables you'd need that makes it tough. If you could throw things into a mission-independent character, you could tell FRED to bring in, say, the GTD Aquitaine, which would have everything that the player had ever done to the Aquitaine stored within it. Doing it with campaign persistent variables you'd need to store all that data, in every mission, for evey ship that could conceivably turn up in that mission. It would start to spiral out of control very rapidly.
Title: Re: Sandbox, loot and trading?
Post by: Goober5000 on April 30, 2014, 08:18:49 pm
But that's why I mentioned the in-mission jump scripting.  You can do something like save_ship('Aquitaine') and all the Aquitaine's hull, subsystems, etc. would be written to a file on the hard disk.
Title: Re: Sandbox, loot and trading?
Post by: General Battuta on April 30, 2014, 08:42:09 pm
Yup. Makes checkpoints a lot easier.
Title: Re: Sandbox, loot and trading?
Post by: karajorma on April 30, 2014, 09:03:38 pm
I think the tools do exist to do a reasonable job of a sandbox style campaign but I agree with BW that it would be quite a large undertaking at this point.
Title: Re: Sandbox, loot and trading?
Post by: mjn.mixael on April 30, 2014, 09:52:45 pm
Using the shipsave script to save basic ship info is something completely different than saving say... Bits for every conversation had with that ship in any mission/location... Or possibly trade options based on environment, achievements, and who knows what else. I think this is the kind of cross mission stuff BW is saying could fly way out of control.
Title: Re: Sandbox, loot and trading?
Post by: General Battuta on May 01, 2014, 12:44:08 am
Using the shipsave script to save basic ship info is something completely different than saving say... Bits for every conversation had with that ship in any mission/location... Or possibly trade options based on environment, achievements, and who knows what else. I think this is the kind of cross mission stuff BW is saying could fly way out of control.

That's the easy stuff to handle with long string and int variables, though. As long as you've got a robust system down it's not too ludicrous.

Really it's the content generation that's the problem, not the technical aspects.
Title: Re: Sandbox, loot and trading?
Post by: mjn.mixael on May 01, 2014, 01:03:20 am
Yeah.. I still think you are minimizing the amount of stuff it could turn into.

Now start thinking of character histories and saving all of that data. I'm not talking about just basic ship info.. things that could affect dialog, story outcomes, or items acquired. So like, character interactions from damaged by, where, and when... to like what conversations have been had in what order. Current and past locations.. Upgrade history, etc.

And it's not just that all of this can be stored in a variable. Big whoop, we know it can be done. The point is keeping track of it all. Doing a full on sandbox with string and int variables would be a ludicrous amount of work with the way FSO is currently constrained to saving data and passing it between missions. It would take document after document to even remember which bit stored what info and for which character. Not to mention the SEXPing required to even do something with all of that info in any and every mission that's part of the "campaign".

I mean, we aren't talking about variable tracking for some BP dialog tree. We are talking about tracking full on sandbox data for any number of systems, planets, nodes, characters, upgrades, ships, and whatever else needs to be packed into a space sandbox to make it interesting. It's not that it can't be done. It's that trying to use any form of FSO variable-SEXP system to make a sandbox is like trying to build a real house out of Legos. I'm sure someone could do it, but it would be a stupid amount of work.. and Legos just weren't ever meant for that.
Title: Re: Sandbox, loot and trading?
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on May 01, 2014, 01:44:46 am
It would take document after document to even remember which bit stored what info and for which character.
If you tried storing all data with SEXPs using persistent variables, sure. That's why we have LUA. It would just amount to more of the same data the checkpoint scripts are already storing, just in a different format and recalled differently.
Title: Re: Sandbox, loot and trading?
Post by: Black Wolf on May 01, 2014, 01:52:26 am
Scripting would definitely be the only way to do this sort of thing. Despite what Battuta says about the possibility, the practicality of storing all the sandbox data in mission vars is essentially zero.

To do this right, it's be necessary to punt a whole lot of data - player, environmental and npc, plus probably a lot more - into external files that can be recalled between missions, and edited within them. Even then you're talking about vast amounts of sexping, but it 'd be possible. Ish.

I doubt the engine could ever be freelancer or space-skyrim, but you could do a decent job of an RPG backend on a restricted mission set. Maybe have the player as a merc who chooses his jobs while working out some kind of meta plot, or something like that. A more advanced Bem Cavalgar, basically.
Title: Re: Sandbox, loot and trading?
Post by: General Battuta on May 01, 2014, 02:08:38 am
Yeah.. I still think you are minimizing the amount of stuff it could turn into.

Now start thinking of character histories and saving all of that data. I'm not talking about just basic ship info.. things that could affect dialog, story outcomes, or items acquired. So like, character interactions from damaged by, where, and when... to like what conversations have been had in what order. Current and past locations.. Upgrade history, etc.

And it's not just that all of this can be stored in a variable. Big whoop, we know it can be done. The point is keeping track of it all. Doing a full on sandbox with string and int variables would be a ludicrous amount of work with the way FSO is currently constrained to saving data and passing it between missions. It would take document after document to even remember which bit stored what info and for which character. Not to mention the SEXPing required to even do something with all of that info in any and every mission that's part of the "campaign".

I mean, we aren't talking about variable tracking for some BP dialog tree. We are talking about tracking full on sandbox data for any number of systems, planets, nodes, characters, upgrades, ships, and whatever else needs to be packed into a space sandbox to make it interesting. It's not that it can't be done. It's that trying to use any form of FSO variable-SEXP system to make a sandbox is like trying to build a real house out of Legos. I'm sure someone could do it, but it would be a stupid amount of work.. and Legos just weren't ever meant for that.

I've spent a long time working on these systems. Believe me, I'm not missing anything. Was the snide shot at BP dialog trees really necessary?

I've been saying the whole time here that the problem is the content generation. Aren't we in agreement on that point? It could be done, but it's a ton of work?

Scripting would definitely be the only way to do this sort of thing. Despite what Battuta says about the possibility, the practicality of storing all the sandbox data in mission vars is essentially zero.

Having actually done it (something I think few people here can claim), it's nowhere near zero! Depending on what you want to do it can be quite ideal. I had a lot more trouble building the actual consequences of the data than I did storing and recalling complex data.

In your rush to declare everything impossible you guys are losing the nuance. We have the tools to tackle a modest range of the problems involved here, particularly with regards to data storage; boresighting in on data storage as the problem is short-sighed. The issue is generating content that uses that data meaningfully.

I prototyped a system for tracking several dozen persistent characters and their ships across the course of a campaign. (Remember, I am not trying to equate this to some bizarre FSGTA open world!) Data storage, again, wasn't the bottleneck. It was content generation.
Title: Re: Sandbox, loot and trading?
Post by: General Battuta on May 01, 2014, 02:12:17 am
Axem, Spoon and I have spent a ton of time probing around the edges of what FRED can do in these respects. We have a really good understanding of the challenges here.

I feel like I need to restate this again to make sure it gets through:

The data storage available within FRED alone is pretty adequate for a wide range of persistence tasks.

Generating content that uses that data meaningfully is much harder, unless you are very clever about bottlenecking your phase space.

Even with all of the above said, FreeSpace is not very good at this, and it's kind of a pain in the ass.

Please remember that my day job involves working on persistence and investment systems in a triple-A engine at a major studio. Believe me when I say that in some respects FRED is way ahead of what most designers have access to.
Title: Re: Sandbox, loot and trading?
Post by: karajorma on May 01, 2014, 03:40:19 am
This thread reminds me that I really should go back and finish off my SEXP container classes code. Being able to persist those would make this much more doable.
Title: Re: Sandbox, loot and trading?
Post by: Rheyah on May 01, 2014, 06:16:07 am
This is just my opinion and may have been previously discussed but I'll post it anyway.  Sandboxes are notoriously meaningless in terms of their content.  A lot of their storytelling is done by context, visual stimuli or by previously scripted tendencies built into the world itself.  So if you're at a station, the station has an X% chance to be in a pre or post attacked state, has an X% chance to receive a convoy, a Y% chance to be attacked during that time and so on.  Lots of pre-scripted content is already built in with ships having normal messages for conversation - a lot of that is loaded into the conversation generator based on mod type rather than implicit to the mission itself.  You COULD reproduce this if you designed a mission generator with a conversation system built in, but it would be a royal pain.

As an example, if you click on a guard in Skyrim, you get one of about 4 or 5 possible responses plus context sensitive dialogue.  Freespace could have that capability, but it would feel extremely dry by comparison to the current richness of content we have in missions.  I mean, most of this isn't impossible.

You could even generate a sandbox analogue without too much trouble simply based off producing mission files randomized off a grid, selected via the new script Axem produced.  Take a 5 by 5 grid which represents individual valid jumps in a system (something a number of mods such as Blue Planet and a few others have canonised) and then produce a number grid where 0 is an empty space and 1-10 are different mission and content types.  You then overlay a number of other elements to determine the various states of each possible content type and then produce scaffolds which then allow you to implement various randomised content states - pirate stations, civilian stations etc.

It'd be a pain to do, but it'd be doable.  Your problem comes in giving those situations meaning and making them internally consistant.  Example:

Stations tend to be in orbit of planets.  Thus a number of your nodes are going to be around planets.  You then need to tell the mission generator where the various positions of stellar bodies are, unless you want every single mission to have the planet in exactly the same position.

Then you need to event generate.  This is going to be close to impossible to make events of the standard we are used to in Freespace.  Again, you can use variables to store when events have occured and where - the overhead could be handled externally without too much trouble, but why would you want to?

Isn't it better to have a properly crafted, lovingly created world with some sandbox elements built in rather than a sandbox mess where content has no meaning?
Title: Re: Sandbox, loot and trading?
Post by: Dragon on May 01, 2014, 07:00:31 am
I believe it would all take proper execution to make a fun, enjoyable RPG with pre-scripted "quests" and some randomly generated ones. Remember, cinematic action doesn't generally take place on a daily basis. As such, the game could still have pre-scripted missions, and in fact would depend on them to advance the plot. Quite a few games (such as X3) make the "sandbox" part the main feature, but a lot of others (including Skyrim) depend mainly on scripted events happening in a sandbox environment.

I think that a good first step would be a tech demo consisting of a small, persistent with a bunch of procedurally-generated civilian traffic. Say, a single system, with a few planets and asteroid stations. Planets could even be landable, though the accessible area would be pretty small (as usual with this kind of games). With a bare-bones trade system (probably done almost entirely in LUA), you could have a basically playable demo, and a framework that you could build quests upon. Once taken up, a "quest" would take over the procedural engine and would be FREDed pretty much like a normal mission. I believe that FS engine could be used to make a sandbox game at least on the level of X:BTF (the very first X).
Title: Re: Sandbox, loot and trading?
Post by: Rheyah on May 01, 2014, 09:57:12 am
I would argue that a Freespace RPG of sorts could easily take a form much closer to say the main campaign of Warcraft 3 and Starcraft 2 than say, Skyrim.  We have an advantage over conventional RPG scripting in that our scripting is unbelievably explicit and built into the engine itself.  When you look at the Skyrim approach it is so incredibly botched despite modding being quite heavily built into the engine.  We redesign weapons and systems with the greatest of ease here.  Procedural generation in this game could even be taken out of the game engine itself and purely into scripting because of the ease with which we can modify landscapes.

That said, I personally am much more interested in the type of RPG I mentioned above.  A very strongly scripted, branching experience where the player has control of strategy and approach to accomplish set goals and thus develop character.
Title: Re: Sandbox, loot and trading?
Post by: General Battuta on May 01, 2014, 10:32:05 am
I think what Rheyah's talking about is realistic and worth doing, and what Dragon's talking about is not.
Title: Re: Sandbox, loot and trading?
Post by: Goober5000 on May 01, 2014, 11:22:37 am
It's not that it can't be done. It's that trying to use any form of FSO variable-SEXP system to make a sandbox is like trying to build a real house out of Legos. I'm sure someone could do it, but it would be a stupid amount of work.. and Legos just weren't ever meant for that.

Someone actually did this. :)
http://www.topgear.com/uk/photos/james-may-lego

Title: Re: Sandbox, loot and trading?
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on May 01, 2014, 11:40:07 am
I think the odds that we'll see someone interested in tackling a project like this rise dramatically once Axem's script comes out and people can select a jump target in a fairly user-friendly fashion. I do think that anyone who thinks they'll get a full-blown open world, Skyrim-style, is dreaming; that just seems like it wouldn't be worth the amount of effort in this engine. On the flip side, we have some interesting examples of individual missions with sandbox-like elements (thinking of some Tenebra missions, obviously), and it would be interesting to see if that concept could be applied to a slightly larger scale.

For example, suppose the player is ordered to find a way to deal with a Corvette escorting a Destroyer so that allied forces can take out the Destroyer. In a "current-generation" sanbox-esque mission, you might find the player having options like inserting a virus into some key component of the Corvette, or using hit-and-run tactics to strip off its turrets so it's no longer a threat, or maybe
Spoiler:
hacking a Mjolnir to destroy it for you ;)

Suppose, though, that the mission gave you a fully-functioning jumpdrive and a destination selection menu along the lines of Axem's script, and your options multiplied accordingly. The player gains the ability to, say, jump to a nearby system and attack a civilian convoy to force the Corvette to jump in to assist. If the player doesn't hit them hard enough, the convoy doesn't think you're enough of a threat to call for backup; if you hit them too hard, they don't have time to call for help (or the Corvette assumes they'll all be destroyed by the time they could get there anyway, for sufficiently ruthless commanders). Alternatively, the player jumps to the local refueling depot and blows up some fuel storage tanks, causing the Corvette to be sent to secure their fuel supply. Alternatively, the player jumps to a nearby jump node and starts attacking shipping as it comes through, only they miscalculated the response generated and the Corvette brings along its Destroyer to grind the player into dust bunnies.

My point is, some really crazy mission design is possible. Technically, I suppose it's possible right now, there just wouldn't be user-friendly interfaces for it yet.
Title: Re: Sandbox, loot and trading?
Post by: General Battuta on May 01, 2014, 11:57:50 am
There is a user-friendly interface, though. We have the promptbox script. We already have BP missions where the player can say 'I'll jump here, OR I'll jump there, or I'll just go home' by clicking on a menu.
Title: Re: Sandbox, loot and trading?
Post by: General Battuta on May 01, 2014, 12:06:59 pm
Also, everybody should be required to play JAD 2.22 before posting in this thread
Title: Re: Sandbox, loot and trading?
Post by: Axem on May 01, 2014, 12:08:13 pm
Well soon you'll have another user-friendly interface. It all depends on how the FREDder wants to display or give his choices.

Also how does JAD2.2 tie into sandbox open world stuff? I don't recall doing that. :P
Title: Re: Sandbox, loot and trading?
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on May 01, 2014, 12:28:01 pm
There is a user-friendly interface, though. We have the promptbox script. We already have BP missions where the player can say 'I'll jump here, OR I'll jump there, or I'll just go home' by clicking on a menu.
The prompt box isn't really user-friendly if you want to select from a large number of options, though... like, say, the number of valid jump targets in a system.

...Also, any of those missions before Act 4? Because I'm not remembering that...
Title: Re: Sandbox, loot and trading?
Post by: General Battuta on May 01, 2014, 12:30:52 pm
Well soon you'll have another user-friendly interface. It all depends on how the FREDder wants to display or give his choices.

Also how does JAD2.2 tie into sandbox open world stuff? I don't recall doing that. :P

Are we still talking about sandbox open world stuff, or about jumping between locations? I've made it clear from the beginning I think a sandbox open world is a bad idea in a lot of ways.
Title: Re: Sandbox, loot and trading?
Post by: Axem on May 01, 2014, 01:14:08 pm
I guess I just don't know what you're expecting people to find related to the topic in JAD2.2. I'm flattered that you're urging people to play it, but it doesn't have either sandbox open worldish things or jumping to other locations. :p Or is it just a "your imagination is the limit" sort of thing?
Title: Re: Sandbox, loot and trading?
Post by: General Battuta on May 01, 2014, 02:03:32 pm
It uses a hub-and-spoke mission system that is absolutely connected to the topics discussed in this thread, in a broad design sense.
Title: Re: Sandbox, loot and trading?
Post by: X3N0-Life-Form on May 01, 2014, 02:48:48 pm
Technically, that's JAD:XA, not JAD 2.22.
Title: Re: Sandbox, loot and trading?
Post by: General Battuta on May 01, 2014, 03:02:25 pm
JAD needs better branding.
Title: Re: Sandbox, loot and trading?
Post by: Goober5000 on May 01, 2014, 03:25:18 pm
JAD has better branding than DEM. :nervous:
Title: Re: Sandbox, loot and trading?
Post by: NGTM-1R on May 01, 2014, 03:44:24 pm
Branching might be hard, RPG elements might be semi-hard, but I think it depends on which ones.

Aerotech just hit as an alpha, and a salvage mechanic would be painful, but probably doable.
Title: Re: Sandbox, loot and trading?
Post by: Phantom Hoover on May 01, 2014, 06:35:37 pm
Wait, I thought branching in FSO is technically very easy; just a conditional switch for mission progression.
Title: Re: Sandbox, loot and trading?
Post by: General Battuta on May 01, 2014, 06:50:23 pm
Wait, I thought branching in FSO is technically very easy; just a conditional switch for mission progression.

Branching is easy. Looping back to hub worlds/places visited earlier is also 'easy', though very hackish.
Title: Re: Sandbox, loot and trading?
Post by: Black Wolf on May 01, 2014, 07:07:06 pm
I prototyped a system for tracking several dozen persistent characters and their ships across the course of a campaign. (Remember, I am not trying to equate this to some bizarre FSGTA open world!) Data storage, again, wasn't the bottleneck. It was content generation.


For the record, I was talking about a GTA style sandbox came in space, like freelancer. I don't doubt that FRED can store data for a number of characters across a campaign. But that's still not enough to handle the kind of game that me, mjn and (I think) the OP are talking about. If you want to restrict it to Warcraft 3 style RPG elements within FSs traditional framework, as the thread seems to bave drifted towards, then that's much more achievable, though you're right that without a procedural generation system, then the content creation hurdle would also be immense (which was one of the points I already made in my first post).
Title: Re: Sandbox, loot and trading?
Post by: General Battuta on May 01, 2014, 07:17:58 pm
Yep, I agree. Although I think it is worth pointing out that most sandbox style games actually have very little persistence - the systems that populate and govern the play areas are homeostatic, and they tend to erase the results of player action over time.
Title: Re: Sandbox, loot and trading?
Post by: karajorma on May 01, 2014, 09:13:39 pm
I can see something like Freelancer working quite well in the FS2_Open engine. You'd have tightly scripted mission for the main plot and then just build up some systems for everything else. When it comes down to it, the non-mission sandbox part of freelancer consists simply of changing the values of a handful of variables (money, weapons installed / available, which factions hate me).
Title: Re: Sandbox, loot and trading?
Post by: NGTM-1R on May 01, 2014, 10:17:34 pm
Wait, I thought branching in FSO is technically very easy; just a conditional switch for mission progression.

Branching is easy to create in a literal sense.

However, note that branching campaigns are extremely rare, because both from a conceptual and a sheer level of work standpoint, they are not easy in any way, shape, or form. Not all obstacles are technical.
Title: Re: Sandbox, loot and trading?
Post by: qwadtep on May 01, 2014, 11:32:15 pm
I've thrown around the idea of a mercenary campaign where you're actually paid for your work and use it to buy new ships and weapons, but have never gotten around to doing it.

Yep, I agree. Although I think it is worth pointing out that most sandbox style games actually have very little persistence - the systems that populate and govern the play areas are homeostatic, and they tend to erase the results of player action over time.
Because if you don't prune noncritical data from time to time you end up with a bigger world/savefile than the game itself. I've heard of Minecraft servers running into the hundreds of gigs. And of course, throwing around that much data is great for introducing errors.