Hard Light Productions Forums
Hosted Projects - FS2 Required => Blue Planet => Topic started by: sunnyB on May 09, 2014, 01:51:56 pm
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Just got done playing BP: Age of Aquirus and liking the new GTD Raynor.
Also got done looking at the specs of that ship and it's nearly as big as the GTI Hades.
Would the Raynor steamroll the GTI Hades since it's 50 years newer than the Hades?
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Considering the ridiculous disparity in technology and given what the Lucifer did in AoA, while it might be sort of a close match, I very much doubt the Hades is as capable of pulling out and repairing itself as the Lucifer is. If the Raynor goes on the offensive and approaches this smartly, there's not really that much that the Hades can do.
If strikecraft complements also factor into this, the Hades is even more ****ed than what it already was. I don't think the Hades carries much in the way of strikecraft, and the wording here implies this is snatching the Hades from Silent Threat and plopping it near a Erebus/Raynor.
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If it's a straight one on one, the Hades has the Lucifer beams on it and about 5.5X the hitpoints of the Raynor. It would crush the Raynor.
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The Hades' subsystems are also notoriously vulnerable to stray beam fire. In terms of raw firepower alone the Erebus ('Raynor' is soooo 2012!) has a pretty huge advantage, and when you factor its vastly greater tactical flexibility it's so far ahead it's not even funny.
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Just got done playing BP: Age of Aquirus and liking the new GTD Raynor.
Also got done looking at the specs of that ship and it's nearly as big as the GTI Hades.
Would the Raynor steamroll the GTI Hades since it's 50 years newer than the Hades?
Crossover battles are never very interesting unless you decide which universe's rule set you're playing in. If you just booted up FRED2 and ctrl-clicked it'd come down to table stats. If you give both ships their full capabilities in a developed tactical framework, an Erebus will wipe the floor with the Hades - in most contexts the Atreus has orders of magnitude more effective hit points, never mind its electronics suite, tactical capabilities, and air wing.
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B-but... the Hades has 99 wings of loki's...
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I WIN
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Of course you'd win. :P
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Shouldn't this thread be relocated?
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Shouldn't this thread be relocated?
Ah yes, our OP is new to HLP. General Freespace Discussion is the best place for this. :yes:
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Shouldn't this thread be relocated?
I'll ping someone to move it to Blue Planet.
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Done.
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If it's a straight one on one, the Hades has the Lucifer beams on it and about 5.5X the hitpoints of the Raynor. It would crush the Raynor.
Battuta said everything that needs to be said, but just for reference: In BP, Lucifer beams are just LReds.
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Which of the three Hades classes are we talking about?
Silent Threat - 800k hitpoints, 2 Shivan Super Lasers (equivalent to the SD Lucifer)
Silent Threat: Reborn - 800k hitpoints, 5 SSLBeams
FreeSpace 2 - 400k hitpoints, 2 BGreens
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given what the Lucifer did in AoA
Had to resort to a war of attrition because the Orestes kept beating it?
The Erebus would walk all over the GTI's bootleg copy.
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It really does come down to what set of rules you want to play by. You can come up with situations where the Hades wins (nobody maneuvers, table stats only, Erebus out of pulse cannon range, Erebus power grid nerfed down to FS1 tech levels) but they don't really reflect the capabilities of the combatants - it's kind of like saying 'Arleigh Burke vs. Bismarck, daylight, 1 mile range'.
The Hades is a really really powerful ship for its timeframe, but it doesn't have the capabilities required to play in the same ballpark as the Erebus. They're operating in two very different tactical contexts. Which is pretty cool! It's neat that the BP ship depends on the stuff BP tends to care about - complex systems, electronic warfare, active armor, maneuvering, sophisticated AI, air wing - and the Hades depends on the stuff traditional FS tends to care about, like huge beams and loads of HP.
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The Orestes is the one being referred to as the OP clearly states it's from Aquarius. So it doesn't have any of the fancy stuff from later on.
Which of the three Hades classes are we talking about?
Silent Threat - 800k hitpoints, 2 Shivan Super Lasers (equivalent to the SD Lucifer)
Silent Threat: Reborn - 800k hitpoints, 5 SSLBeams
FreeSpace 2 - 400k hitpoints, 2 BGreens
We know it's not the FS2 one as he refers to it as the GTI Hades. It's probably the Silent Threat Reborn one.
given what the Lucifer did in AoA
Had to resort to a war of attrition because the Orestes kept beating it?
And it had plenty of help doing it, didn't it. And it's quite capable of destroying the Orestes even with everything the player brings to the table in that battle.
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Except here's the thing, Lorric - the Orestes DOES have these things. It's BP canon. They're just not mentioned. If Darius and the team redid AOA, they'd probably add a lot of the things that got added in WiH.
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Except here's the thing, Lorric - the Orestes DOES have these things. It's BP canon. They're just not mentioned. If Darius and the team redid AOA, they'd probably add a lot of the things that got added in WiH.
Well then you'd think they'd just walk over the Shivans, and that didn't happen.
Unless they also decked out the Shivans in a remake, but that's all hypothetical. If we go down that road, the discussion all becomes meaningless. We can only compare with what we see. As far as I'm concerned it's the Orestes as it is seen in Aquarius vs. the GTI Hades. But I've already said my piece on that. Only the OP can really clarify what they want to get out of this discussion, and that's how I interpreted it.
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Why? Fighting against Shivans is not like fighting against other Humans. When pitting the Erebus-class against other human ship classes, the more sophisticated equipment of the Erebus will have a larger effect than against the already very advanced Shivans.
And yes, as far as BP is concerned, there are very few differences between the Orestes and the Atreus.
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The Atreus would destroy the Hades fairly easily. There's a difference between the Lucifer which is a technologically advanced, nigh invulnerable Shivan super destroyer and the Hades, which is a botched together synthesis of Terran technologies and half finished Shivan research.
We already know the GTI, as advanced as they were, couldn't field Kaysers which suggests their understanding of Shivan tech was pretty minimal. They were just using what they could and were able to salvage and reverse engineer.
Besides, the assumption is that the Hades is equivalent to the Lucifer. Yes, it might have Shivan beam weapons and some Shivan armour plating but Shivan ECM? Shivan ECCM? Shivan data capacity? The Atreus has fifty years on the Hades. That's fifty years of fighter advancements. Fifty years of ECM advances. Active armour systems. Advanced jump drives.
The Atreus could jump in at 15 klicks and launch its fighter compliment. The Lokis and Zeus wings aren't going to last long against TEI 2 fighters. Or it could jump in at two and rip the Hades apart with its pulse cannons. That is assuming the Hades can even hit the Atreus with all the EWAR suites switched on.
I see the modern GTVA warships as being partially derived from the lessons of the Hades. As numerically powerful as the Hades is, I don't see it lasting long against an Erebus.
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Yeah, the Orestes and its battle group go several rounds with the Lucifer and its consorts, and the Lucifer uses its own excellent power systems to jump out and regroup. It's definitely a tactic of attrition.
The Lucifer also has a holocide anima aboard, which is something the Hades certainly can't claim.
The Erebus is also much cheaper and more economical to build, which is important cause BP is super sophisticated and intellectual and cares about economics :3
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Just curious. Is the new Erebus available with AoA now? I don't recall seeing it on my last playthrough but others have.
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No, it's not. There's an incomplete version in the internal SVN lacking lods and debris so we could test it, and I gave majorvader a version so he could adapt it for his SoaSE mod, but it's not released anywhere.
It'll be in the director's cut.
And it had plenty of help doing it, didn't it. And it's quite capable of destroying the Orestes even with everything the player brings to the table in that battle.
The Lucifer had help too. Hell, it had another destroyer present.
But I don't really see how the Lucifer is relevant. The Hades is a cheap knockoff with nowhere near the capabilities.
The fact that we're substituting the Lucifer for the Hades to make this look like a fairer contest really tells you how much better the Erebus is.
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It's not like the Hades is a bad warship. It's an excellent design for its time.
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Slash beams rendered the Hades obsolete. :P