Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Petrarch of the VBB on July 18, 2002, 12:53:14 pm
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I am now getting into programming, and after experimenting with QBasic, I wan't to make proper stuff, so where can I get Vis Basic? Is it free? Does it come with windows? Can it be downloaded? Etc.
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I did a little VB programming and depending on what you want to achieve you are either going to love it or absolutley revile it (as I did :) ).
It is pretty damn expensive and is bought as a stand alone product. What were you considering programming? I might get a better idea of wheter or not it will do the job.
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Well I dont know what I want to program, i just want to learn one of the languages, and VisBasic seemed as good as any.
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Visual Basic... is...... well: THE TOOL OF THE DEVIL!!!!
Although it is the next step after quick basic, you may want to consider C however (or pascal, i learned pascal first.... old language now)
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Nah I'm going with Kazan on this. Learn C or C++. It's very powerful, there are loads of free compliers, it can be compiled for a lot of platforms other than PC's (Gameboy Advance for instance) and best of all you will be able to edit the FS2 code. :)
There are a lot of tutorials for it too :nod:
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Learn Perl (http://www.perl.com); the Language of the Gods. It's free too.
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php is just the better version of perl, and its very close to C
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ummm.... a friend of mine knows VB, i'll phone him tonight and ask him and post here...i'm not familiar with visual basic at all though...
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visual basic is not a programming language, it's a joke
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Originally posted by vadar_1
Visual Basic... is...... well: THE TOOL OF THE DEVIL!!!!
did you make that "1337" program of yours in VB or C++?
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stealth your signature hurts my eyes
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hey KaZan,
you mean the colors? i think they look cool though... perhaps it is a bit long though... you think it's a bit long?
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Use pastels. Ie, instead of #FF0000, use #FF7777
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i'll just shorten it about 11 lines :)
is this too bright? cause if i have to then i'll change the colors...
i mean, i know it's the same colors, but it's a lot less of them, so does it help :D
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While we're on the subject of programming languages...
What books do you reccommend for someone wanting to learn C/C++? Keep in mind this is for someone with only minimal to zero experience with "real" programming.
And what about DirectX? (say nothing, Kazan, absolutely nothing) I'm wanting to try to upgrade FS2 to the DirectX 8.1 interface, but I'm a bit clueless. I actually have a neat idea to replace the particle trails with pointsprites, but I need to figure out how to make them behave the way I want to.
Look on MSDN and there should be a demo of the pointsprite effect. If not I can zip it up and let you all see it.
I've tried VB, and it's geared perfectly for processing data for shipping, ordering, invoicing, business stuff, but I agree that if you really want to have fun take a stab at C++.
btw, does anyone have anything on this new C# Micro$oft has in their Visual Studio .NET? All I know is it's pronounced c sharp. :D
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don't touch C# or .NET
DX is ok since we're on windows, i'd rather you put effort into an OpenGL renderer - especially when OpenGL 1.4 drivers are available
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There are plenty enough other people here that are better experienced with OpenGL than I'll ever be, and besides, someone's got to understand how that demon DirectX works anyways, right? ;)
So, for a complete newbie, whadda ya recommend for learning C++? Besides a training course at a college or somthing?
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"C++ for You++" by Deitel and Dietel
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Penguin's Official Guide to Every Language Worth Knowing and a few that aren't ;7
Like the King James Bible, this is not open to interpretation, as angels told me all this.- C You must learn this. It is not an option. Don't ask why. Delivered to us sinners by the Prophets Kernigan and Ritchie. *genuflects*
- C++ See above. They fixed some of the things that C got wrong. They also added the kitchen sink. Don't get carried away with inheritance. Trying to comprehend the STL will rob you of sleep; using it will rob your processor of cycles.
- Visual Basic Don't waste your time. It will make your brain impure. It also causes cavities, hair loss, and sterility. You can make pretty windows with it fairly easily, if you're into that sort of thing.
- Java C++ for Dummies. Useful for some things (mostly webbish stuff), but don't get carried away and keep it in its place: C++ has pointers for a reason.
- C# Evil. Bad. Another C++ for Dummies, with brimstone included. If you even use this once, even for "Hello, world," you will be marked with The Sign forever.
- Perl Perl is the glue that holds the internet together. It is the Swiss Army knife. All the world's programming problems can be solved with Perl, frequently in under five lines. Not for the squeamish nor for the purists. Probably not the language of choice for gaming engines, though.
- PHP Perl for people who only care about building kewl websites
- Assembly Useful to know, but it's a rare individual who can write better asm code than a modern compiler. Usually you'll shoot your own foot off, up to the hip. I would not recommend novice programmers attempting to write their own device drivers. Oh yeah, every processor has its own instruction set, so they're all different.
The End.
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GO LISP!!!!!! (yea, lisp is a cool programming language!)
LISP: a symbolicly oriented language, used for AIs. Very easy at first.
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*slo-mo dives*
FORTRAAAAAAAAAAANNNNNNNNN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
*gets up*
*slo-mo dives again*
COBOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Originally posted by an0n
*slo-mo dives*
FORTRAAAAAAAAAAANNNNNNNNN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
*gets up*
*slo-mo dives again*
COBOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
LISP is cooler for recursion than your FORTRAN! :ha: :p
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Binary tape readers and punch-cards 0wn j00.
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Binary!!!
1001101011011010
0010010110111000
1010101001001101
1001001100110101
1010101010110010!
Assembler 4eva. Or something.
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The First Amendment
I probably should have added
LISP, if for no other reason than Freespace SEXPs are based on it. However, Lambda Calculus is for Computer Science academic weenies (the angels told me that too).[/list]
COBOL and FORTRAN were intentionally left off the list. I have little experience with COBOL. Sadly, I have had far too much experience with FORTRAN *rinses mouth*
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And what about binary tape and punch-cards?!?!
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Originally posted by an0n
And what about binary tape and punch-cards?!?!
Been there, done that. I am so goddam old, it sickens me. Trust me, CD-ROMs and broadband are better.
BTW those are media, not languages ;) You could punch your Java source onto a deck if you were into really weird ****, I guess.
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I always thought FORTRAN was a pretty good language (for number crunching jobs) althought I understand it can be needlessly hard at times. There never seems to be much documentation on it. ORA has a section on most languages but not FORTRAN.
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PHP Perl for people who only care about building kewl websites
Tsk, tsk, tsk...PHP is for people who want the functionality of Perl without the "You have an error somewhere. Good luck finding it" error messages :p
But, yes, it's only for websites. :(
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Assembler is a good language but since I've never looked at the instruction set for x86's I can't tell you much about it on that platform.
I did code some stuff on z80's and PICs. :nod:
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Originally posted by Maeglamor
Assembler is a good language but since I've never looked at the instruction set for x86's I can't tell you much about it on that platform.
I did code some stuff on z80's and PICs. :nod:
The Z-80! w00t! The first processor I learned ASM on! The only bummer was Zilog made their mnemonics incompatible with the Intel 8080 family.
I remember when we started using the Z-80A - twice the speed (4MHz) of the original (2MHz). All of a sudden, our code started to fly!
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i'm not sure penguin, but isn't javascript for websites but Java for something else...
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An oldie but a goodie...
A GUIDE TO PROGRAMMING LANGUAGES
C
You shoot yourself in the foot.
C++
You accidentally create a dozen instances of yourself and shoot them all in the foot. Providing emergency medical care is impossible since you can't tell which are bitwise copies and which are just pointing at others and saying, "that's me, over there."
ASSEMBLY
You crash the OS and overwrite the root disk. The system administrator arrives and shoots you in the foot. After a moment of contemplation, the administrator shoots himself in the foot and then hops around the room rabidly shooting at everyone in sight.
APL
You heard a gunshot, and there's a hole in your foot, but you don't remember enough linear algebra to understand what the hell happened.
ADA
If you are dumb enough to actually use this language, the United States Department of Defense will kidnap you, stand you up in front of a firing squad, and tell the soldiers, "Shoot at his feet."
MODULA-2
After realizing that you can't actually accomplish anything in this language, you shoot yourself in the head.
PASCAL
Same as Modula-2, except the bullets are the wrong type and won't pass through the barrel. The gun explodes.
SH, CSH
You can't remember the syntax for anything, so you spend five hours reading man pages before giving up. You then shoot the computer and switch to C.
SMALLTALK
You spend so much time playing with the graphics and windowing system that your boss shoots you in the foot, takes away your workstation, and makes you develop in COBOL on a character terminal.
HYPERCARD
Put the first bullet of gun into foot left of leg of you. Answer the result.
FORTRAN
You shoot yourself in each toe, iteratively, until you run out of toes, then read in the next foot and repeat. If you run out of bullets, you continue anyway because you have no exception processing ability.
ALGOL
You shoot yourself in the foot with a musket. The musket is esthetically fascinating, and the wound baffles the adolescent medic in the emergency room.
MOTIF
You spend days writing a UIL description of your foot, the bullet, its trajectory, and the intricate scrollwork on the ivory handles of the gun. When you finally get around to pulling the trigger, the gun jams.
COBOL
USEing a COLT45 HANDGUN, AIM gun at LEG.FOOT, THEN place ARM.HAND.FINGER on HANDGUN.TRIGGER, and SQUEEZE. THEN return HANDGUN to HOLSTER. Check whether shoelaces need to be retied.
BASIC
Shoot self in foot with a water pistol. On big systems, continue until entire lower body is waterlogged.
VISUAL BASIC
You shoot yourself in the foot, but have so much fun doing it that you don't care.
PL/I
You consume all available system resources, including all the offline bullets. The Data Processing and Payroll Department doubles its size, triples its budget, acquires four new mainframes, and drops the original one on your foot.
SNOBOL
You grab your foot with your hand, then rewrite your hand to be a bullet. The act of shooting the original foot then changes your hand/bullet into yet another foot (a left foot).
LISP
you shoot yourself in the appendage which holds the gun with which you shoot yourself in the appendage which holds the gun with which you shoot yourself in the appendage which holds the gun with which you shoot yourself in the appendage which holds the gun...
ORACLE
ORACLE sells you a gun, a box of bullets, a holster, a cardboard mock-up of a wild-west town, and a stetson. You find the trigger, which takes 27 people to pull. ORACLE provides 26 consultants, all with holsters, cardboard mock-ups, and stetsons. The bullet doesn't leave the gun barrel and you hire four more ORACLE consultants to optimise. The bullet bounces off of your sandals. You decide to buy INGRES. Richard Donkin shoots you in the foot.
370 JCL
You send your foot down to MIS and include a 400-page document explaining exactly how you want it to be shot. Three years later, your foot comes back deep-fried.
PARADOX
Not only can you shoot yourself in the foot, your users can, too.
ACCESS
You try to point the gun at your foot, but it shoots holes in all your Borland distribution diskettes instead.
JAVA
You can shoot your foot with a standalone interpreter, but a Java applet won't let you access your foot.
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So most of you are suggesting C++ but Zylon, in his infinite wisdom, is suggesting not bothering at all, but just going out and shooting myself in the foot, right.
Well then, where can I get a C++ compiler? A mate of mine tried to learn C++ but couldn't find any and so lost interest, I don't want to do the same. Also, as someone else asked, are there any decen C++ books. I found the SAMS Teach Yourself (whatever) in 24Hours/21Days to be very useful, id there one for C++?
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Originally posted by Petrarch of th VBB
So most of you are suggesting C++ but Zylon, in his infinite wisdom, is suggesting not bothering at all, but just going out and shooting myself in the foot, right.
Well then, where can I get a C++ compiler? A mate of mine tried to learn C++ but couldn't find any and so lost interest, I don't want to do the same. Also, as someone else asked, are there any decen C++ books. I found the SAMS Teach Yourself (whatever) in 24Hours/21Days to be very useful, id there one for C++?
Go get yourself a copy of GCC (make sure it's the x86 version). It's free and is widely distributed. DO a search on google for it. :)
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Originally posted by Maeglamor
Go get yourself a copy of GCC (make sure it's the x86 version). It's free and is widely distributed. DO a search on google for it. :)
The GCC home page is at http://gnu.org/software/gcc/ Go to the Download / binaries area. You'll also need Cygwin or MinGW IIRC.
Zylon:
I liked the shoot in foot thing, Saw it years ago. There was a similar one for operating systems too... :nod:
Stealth:
Java is very much used in the web... the whole Servlet thing, JSP, etc. Not usually visible to the browser, but it does the CGI-type stuff behind the scenes. Check out the Tomcat server by Apache -- it's one of the best web engines out there, and it's free http://jakarta.apache.org/tomcat/ There used to be a lot of hype about Java applets, but you don't hear as much about that anymore...
JavaScript is the stuff that runs in the browser context and allows useful things :rolleyes: like spam windows that pop up when you try to shut down your browser. I don't consider JavaScript to be a real language, but I'm sure I'll get flamed for that :p
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Originally posted by Petrarch of th VBB
So most of you are suggesting C++ but Zylon, in his infinite wisdom, is suggesting not bothering at all, but just going out and shooting myself in the foot, right.
Sigh... Look, it's a repost of a humor file that's been floating around since before the Internet even existed.
Between this and the responses in the "Spacecrack" thread, I'm starting to think it's Short Bus day at the HLP. :doubt:
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If you want to try visual basic, there is a downloadable version on microsoft's website somewhere, its called the "control creation edition" or something I think, but you can only run the programs in the VB interface, you can't actually compile them. I use Visual Basic, I really like it because I enjoy making simple directX games and utility programs and don't have the time to learn c++, which is more complicated and isn't going to make my simple programs run any better :p
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"Personally, I think Unix shell programming has perl/python/java/C++ all beat. Just look at the following chain of Unix commands:
unzip; strip; touch; finger; mount; fsck; more; yes; umount; sleep"
- Kyle
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Aw geez, you and CP. :p
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Originally posted by Stryke 9
Aw geez, you and CP. :p
eh? what about me and CP!?
what did i do!?
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Originally posted by YodaSean
If you want to try visual basic, there is a downloadable version on microsoft's website somewhere, its called the "control creation edition" or something I think, but you can only run the programs in the VB interface, you can't actually compile them. I use Visual Basic, I really like it because I enjoy making simple directX games and utility programs and don't have the time to learn c++, which is more complicated and isn't going to make my simple programs run any better :p
This is what I'm talking about, if it does the job you might just love it. Otherwise it's a royal waste of time and effort.
C is the most powerful, flexible language that I'm aware of. There are thriving communities out there that will be able to answer any questions you can throw at them and there are tons of tutorials. BTW some books on C++ that I've read actually advise against learning C first and just jump into C++. I dunno enough about it though. Penguin, Kazan? What do you think?
BTW Penguin 4MHz!?! :jaw: *hands shake uncontrollably at the sheer power* :D
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C is good to know before C++
because oop and non-oop techniques have their places in all programs
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Anyway, today I went out and bought SAMS teach yourself C++ in 24 Hours, it comes with 2 compilers and a debugger, so that should be useful. I've read the first couple of pages, but haven't got into it properly, I've just played around with the compilers. This, however, raises further questions, about the FS2 source. I've been looking at it and want to know, is that POFVIEW that comes as part of it any good? And if so how do I compile it?
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SAMS books = teh suck
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In what way?
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every way
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meh, any book that teaches you the basics is OK. You don't really learn until you start on a real project.
The best you can hope for is a book that doesn't give you any misinformation about "the way to do it" That's why you should avoid MS Press books -- all the brain-damaged "hungarian notaion," and every class name starting with "C" is more obfuscating than enlightening. (What happens if you need to change a variable's type? Do you rename all the variables, or do you leave them with the "wrong signature"?) But I digress...
And athough the FS2 code is in C++, it's not "really C++" -- there's very little use of classes, etc. that make C++ an OOL. It's using the "better C" features of the language. If you know C but not C++, you can understand 95% of the FS2 code.
BTW don't flame me for saying that :p I say it with complete neutrality -- I'm not saying anything good nor bad about OOP.
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Well then, can anyone offer up any siggestions of the pofview wotsit? When I try and compile I get errors saying .h not in this directory, so I move them into that directory, and get twice as many errors! Help!
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Originally posted by Petrarch of th VBB
Well then, can anyone offer up any siggestions of the pofview wotsit? When I try and compile I get errors saying .h not in this directory, so I move them into that directory, and get twice as many errors! Help!
Are you trying to compile with GCC or the compiler that came with the SAMS book?
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Which version of the source are you using? :confused:
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Originally posted by Maeglamor
Are you trying to compile with GCC or the compiler that came with the SAMS book?
The One that came with the book, its called Bloodhound Dev C++, or something.
WMCoolmon
Which version of the source are you using?
The one with a German unpacking thing.
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Ignore this, it went wrong and i cant delete it.
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Originally posted by Petrarch of th VBB
Are you trying to compile with GCC or the compiler that came with the SAMS book?
The One that came with the book, its called Bloodhound Dev C++, or something.
I never heard of it... you might have more luck with something a little better supported...
Which version of the source are you using?
The one with a German unpacking thing.
I have no idea what this even means... I guess you're not using one of the versions at http://fs2source.warpcore.org then...
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Originally posted by penguin
I never heard of it... you might have more luck with something a little better supported...
I think the compilers that they give out with these books are function limited. The version I got with my C++ in 24hrs was labeled 'lite' i.e. 'sh1t'.
Use the GCC compiler, lots of material available to help you out with problems too. :nod:
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The version of the source I have was downloaded from Stealth's page here at HLP, I don't know where he got it from.
And where can I get this GCC compiler of which you speak?