Hard Light Productions Forums
Site Management => Site Support / Feedback => Topic started by: Lorric on September 04, 2014, 12:03:36 pm
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http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=88246.msg1762133#msg1762133
Black Wolf has been working with me in recent times. Just on the 21st August I checked in with him after not hearing from him for a month. I asked if there were any problems with any of my posts or if I had been reported and he said no. I have heard nothing since of any problems.
In addition he told me he'd always tell me if I had been reported, even if the report was not actionable. I have been told of no reports.
Also, I had an agreement with the HLP staff. Karajorma's action against me strongly violates that agreement.
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I should also clarify I oppose my expulsion from Gen Disc.
If I have been reported, you haven't allowed the agreed process to take effect. A process me and Black Wolf agreed on was a good process. As far as I'm aware I've been reported very few times since March.
And why do I get it in the neck for saying "yes" and -Joshua- doesn't for saying "no". (Of course I don't think he should.)
You haven't allowed the talk with Zacam to take place about that other issue (related to me making reports). You were supposed to be leaving this to Zacam to sort out.
I also wonder how I can possibly have been reported a ridiculous number of times this month, when I have only made one post this month besides the one I got banned for, and somehow I doubt posting in Trashman's LP could have garnered reports.
Before that you're getting into the territory where I asked Black Wolf and he said nothing was amiss. There was plenty of time inbetween there and now for him to tell me there was.
EDIT: I also had a chat with Black Wolf on either the end of the 27th or start of 28th about various things. That would have been a perfect opportunity to introduce concerns into the conversation. He said nothing, we just had a friendly chat.
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I'm not going to go into numbers, because the moderation staff agreed not to go into detail when it comes to reports, but you've been reported a lot since March. You also hold the record for most reports filed.
Clearly there is something wrong. You have been given multiple chances to improve yourself and you have consistently failed to do so. Your most recent thread in Gaming Discussion illustrates this trend, in which you fail to grasp complex concepts whether intentionally or through a lack of ability to understand said complex concepts.
Such obliviousness is not helpful or welcome in General Discussion. The incident that just got you banned from GD is the last in a long line of chance you have failed to demonstrate the maturity necessary to get you off of probation.
Have a nice day.
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I'll have to talk to BW when he shows up.
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Black Wolf has interceded on your behalf with me at least. (Or attempted to; I admit I never took his statements he was working with you very seriously for reasons that will be obvious in a moment.) However whatever "working with" was done, the only visible result was the fact that I'd get PM'd by Black Wolf not to argue with you because, it was implied, that would undo whatever "work" was being done. No actual change in behavior ever resulted.
I think the request was ridiculous, because you are ultimately responsible for your own behavior and if you chose to behave badly that was on you. I did make some attempt to honor it because it was made by a moderator. But that request was made a long time ago, and frankly the idea that you were allowed to keep posting because some moderator made you a personal project rather than giving you the boot you so richly deserve for your continued inability to engage in complex discussion is odious in itself.
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itt lorric is a crybaby
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Please keep this thread clean from any unnecessary comments. This is not meant to be a "let me tell you what I really think" type of thread.
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At the same time... can we still comment on the situation? This is a really clear case of a mod giving Lorric special treatment, which isn't a fair way to moderate at all.
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Some comments here disappoint me to a point where I wouldn't think it possible.
Others are just predictable.
I have witnessed far worse behavior as described by the regulations than the implied sin of "naive annoying stupidity" that I see here him being accused of.
I would have a wall of text to describe my profound distaste for this witch hunt but I won't be dragged through this. My last comment is bah.
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At the same time... can we still comment on the situation? This is a really clear case of a mod giving Lorric special treatment, which isn't a fair way to moderate at all.
Lorric was given many second chances, and BW volunteered to attempt to rehabilitate him as a productive member of GD, mostly because he seemed mostly harmless, as opposed to violently argumentative (TrashMan, Liberator, etc).
The probationary period is over; he is banned from Gen Disc indefinitely.
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I'm just waiting for Black Wolf to show up. Maybe he can shed some light on where these "many second chances" in the period between March and now are, because I sure can't.
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The fact that you don't see how that's exactly the problem is as much a case against your inclusion in GD than anything I've said.
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As an ex GM, I really don't want to get too involved, but what I will say is this;
My own feeling is that the thread should have been dealt with long before it ever got to the point where someone got banned. Even if it was locked for 24 hours just to give people time to cool down and structure their arguments in a less confrontational manner. I did tend to find that trick worked.
The whole thread was full of personal attacks and accusation of personal attacks, one person had already been banned for it, and tempers were still frayed. I think this could have been avoided.
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The problem with simply locking the thread is that it goes too far in the other direction.
People have repeatedly asked the moderators to lock threads less and allow the community to moderate itself more.
I don't particularly want to see controversial topics locked the second they get heated.
As for Lorric, the fact that you've phrased this entire debate as a personal issue between me and you pretty much proves that this was the right decision for the moderation staff to take.
The outcome of the last reported thread was that you should be banned and even then no action was taken. If this is a witch hunt it is the single most ineffective one ever since you've been allowed to get away with actions that should have had repercussions for years.
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It's not personal. Either you are lying, or Black Wolf did not follow through on his promise to tell me if I'm getting reported.
I'll drop a couple more facts here.
Which leads to a suggestion. Moderators have an "Issue a warning because of this message" button. Since when reading a reported thread we will probably already be looking at the post that was reported, an idea might be to simply click on that and send a message saying "This post was reported for being insulting, etc. The decision of the moderation team is that while the post is impolite no action will be taken as a result of this report." i.e a no consequences warning. If you get one of those messages, you know that whatever you did wasn't anything the moderators considered too bad, but that someone, somewhere thinks you crossed a line. So you might want to avoid doing things in quite the same way next time. If you start seeing these appearing very often, you know you're acting like Lorric, annoying people but never doing anything bad enough to actually trigger a response.
Cause the biggest problem with the posts that we saw report from Lorric was that very few of them were actionable. So they were simply closed. Doing this gives us a good way to get feedback to the person causing the trouble without actually punishing them in any way.
The number of these I have received since March: 0
The number of official warnings I have received since March: 1
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Well I trusted the members of the moderation staff who said they were dealing with issues to do with you to tell you if you were being reported or if your own reports were unnecessary and being viewed at attempts to cause trouble. If that didn't happen, then I'm more than willing to sit down with the other moderators and look at this ban in detail.
If they say they did warn you, there will be repercussions though.
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Huh? You say that as if someone else applied the ban.
Warnings are sent through the PM system. Get a sysadmin to check that out if you need to.
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I may have applied the ban, I wasn't the only one to agree to it. You seem to be under the impression that this is the action of a single admin. It really isn't. Last time we voted no one expressed an opinion that you shouldn't be banned.
As for warnings, I'm not talking about official warnings via the PM system. If Black Wolf or Zacam or any other moderator has been making you aware of the issues then you should have been aware of the issues the moderators had with your posts, official warning or not.
I should further point out that Black Wolf talking to you was the alternative to banning you from Gen Disc earlier. So you were already on borrowed time, as it were.
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As far as I'm aware, Zacam decided to take over with talking to me about this issue with the reports I made, But he has not yet had that talk with me.
There has been very little talk of reported posts between me and Black Wolf. Zacam talked with me some days ago about a single reported post in the feminist thread, and that talk went smoothly.
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I'll wait to hear it from Black Wolf and Zacam.
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I'll wait to hear it from Black Wolf and Zacam.
Thank you.
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Well I trusted the members of the moderation staff who said they were dealing with issues to do with you to tell you if you were being reported or if your own reports were unnecessary and being viewed at attempts to cause trouble. If that didn't happen, then I'm more than willing to sit down with the other moderators and look at this ban in detail.
As far as recent statistics, Lorric was reported once on August 30th for this post (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=88263.msg1761393#msg1761393) and once on August 25th for this one (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=88204.msg1760293#msg1760293). The last one prior to that was on August 6th.
However, just this past weekend, Lorric himself reported six posts in the span of two days.
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Given that he's been reported a ridiculous number of times this month, and you haven't been, you're pretty safe.
You told a lie Karajorma. None this month, only 3 last month. Why?
As far as recent statistics, Lorric was reported once on August 30th for this post (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=88263.msg1761393#msg1761393) and once on August 25th for this one (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=88204.msg1760293#msg1760293). The last one prior to that was on August 6th.
However, just this past weekend, Lorric himself reported six posts in the span of two days.
No one told me about August 30th. Maybe because the thread got locked so there was no need?
August 25th is the one Zacam spoke to me about.
August 6th, I don't know. I made a lot of posts that day, there is one I could imagine it being.
I did send 6 reports. If the report system was more flexible, I would have at least sent the first 3 as one, and probably would have been able to send another pair as one. Anyway, I'm hoping to talk to Zacam about that.
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tl;dr summary: I don't agree with perma-GenDisc ban.
Somewhat longer summary:
I have been discussing matters when and where they occur in relation to Lorric. Those discussions are held in private confidence unless Lorric chooses to allow me to disclose them.
I did have a discussion with Lorric in regards to the reports he was making and how the report system is to be used. In my opinion, that discussion went well.
As for the reported posts that took place, each one was discussed as to their merits and flaws and where perception vs. interpretation ended up making for what I deemed to be an excusable allowance and a recognizable and satisfactory discussion was had regarding them.
So at this point, especially on the point of the post that seems to have served "the final straw", I really do not think that a perma-ban from Gen Disc is going to improve or resolve anything in any significant manner, much less for a desirable positive outcome.
I seem to perceive (correct me if I'm wrong, please) that we are all assuming that since we are all here, that we are all here with the same tacit understandings and developments in terms of "how things are done". And that's frankly not ever been the case and never will be. We cannot correct properly by castigation and chastisement alone, which seems to be the bulk of how we manage our affairs here on this forum and that is starting to be both rather depressing as well as cause for a lot of the boiling point flash-flood problems that we've been seeing more and more of lately.
There are significantly WORSE behaviours in Gen Disc that should be having this focus of attention on them by long standing individuals. But mostly because they ARE long standing, everybody seems content to let that be, so I fail to see why we'll allow for those instances to have their own quarters, but have none here in this case when what we are dealing with at worst is somebody that is new to a place like ours and COULD learn a lot from it, if only we bothered applying both some respect and some patience that we're supposed to have in terms of being the long standing community we are.
That being said; Lorric:
There were perhaps some better ways, less confrontational in style, for raising this discussion and making your points. I'm sure we'll discuss that at a later time.
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Thank you very much Zacam. If you want to bring something up from our talks, just ask me.
That being said; Lorric:
There were perhaps some better ways, less confrontational in style, for raising this discussion and making your points. I'm sure we'll discuss that at a later time.
Sure, no problem.
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I did say perma-banned until further notice. As far as I'm concerned that's until we stop seeing the sort of behaviour that results in the need for a ban.
As for the accusation that I lied, I meant "This last month" not "This month of September which is only 5 days old". Yeah, that's an error on my part, but the attempt to frame it as a lie is exactly the sort of issue that is causing you problems Lorric!
I'll address Zacam's comments when I'm not on my phone.
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Three reports is not a ridiculous number.
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Three reports is not a ridiculous number.
Yes, it actually is (Because 3 is not the actual number). In August, we had a grand total of 18 reported posts (Disclaimer: There may have been more, but my email archive for the report post mails only goes back 30 days). Of those, 6 were made by you. 4 of them were about posts by you; and of the 6 posts you reported, 5 were part of a vendetta you were pursuing against NGTM1-R and 1 was you commenting on how you felt the manner of a thread closure was wrong.
You are making a disproportionate number of appearances in the post report queue, basically, either as the reporter or the reported.
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Then it's 4. Ridiculous implies something difficult to count. He only said about me being reported.
And no, no vendetta. Just not knowing about report etiquette.
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The E: Let's stick with numbers, rather than involving the details behind those numbers, please. This is (while Members only) still a 'Public' forum, as a result, specifics in terms of details of what should be considered privately handled material is probably not the best way to go.
Three reports is not a ridiculous number.
Yes, it actually is (Because 3 is not the actual number). In August, we had a grand total of 18 reported posts (Disclaimer: There may have been more, but my email archive for the report post mails only goes back 30 days). Of those, 6 were made by you. 4 of them were about posts by you.
You are making a disproportionate number of appearances in the post report queue, basically, either as the reporter or the reported.
The above would be a more clear and factual presentation.
(and now for In General):
And correct, in terms of distant OR recent HLP History of Behaviour, it IS disproportionate to what we are used to, but is still something that CAN be corrected for, rather than just blatantly ejected for having happened. Again, far worse transgressions have happened in the history of HLP and even to this day, there are still plenty of individuals that still persist in maintaining problematic behaviours that are sort of "tolerated" more so than others.
It doesn't, to my opinion, serve us well as a community that for everything that we can stand against, that we're being intolerant to somebody unfamiliar to our community or unfamiliar with what it means to be a part of any sort of community that we'd rather decisively punish their participation and potential for growth when there are far worse to be dealt with. I'm talking Vik Thor, DarthWang, High Max quality characters here, of which I can't account Lorric as being any of -unless- we decided that he's only fit for being such and treat as accordingly, which is just the worst possible community reinforcement that I can think of.
Edit: To raise a point, valid as it is: Yes, I know Lorric has been here for 3 years. And has a post count that should, by some peoples measure of "significance" mean that he isn't "new". This is a somewhat fair statement to make, yes. But I think it makes some assumptions about measuring that we should all "get" things all at the same same pace that isn't strictly true.
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HLP isn't a special school. You don't have a duty to help everyone integrate into the community, no matter how incapable they show themselves to be.
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Phantom Hoover: My apologies, was there a point to that? Because I'm failing to see one.
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bah
humbug
(I concur)
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Lorric has had a very fair opportunity to learn how to interact with other people here. If he genuinely wants to overcome his problems with social interactions there are places for him to do that; a Freespace modding forum has no obligation to provide one.
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Yes, well, the best places to learn how to interact people is where people are. And I definitely think he's not the only one who could learn a thing or two about social interactions.
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There are places? Really? Cite them for me please. Cause I'm not aware of any "Etiquette 101" sites, or "Forums and You" specific communities that would ALSO happen to serve for the interests that drew him towards here that are the same as for everybody else: FreeSpace, as either a game or an Engine and the attendant mods and community surrounding it.
A community which will require of every one to learn. Learning happens where you happen to be, simply deciding that he should "do it elsewhere" isn't an answer, because then we'd just be a ghost town while everybody did all their "learning" somewhere else. Deciding that YOU don't want to partake in that is all well and fine, but deciding that it just doesn't get to happen period here? That's just sad.
And further more, a GENERAL DISCUSSION board is the best place for it to happen. Unless you'd rather it happen within ALL of the other attendant boards, Gen Disc should rationally be the MOST open place for learning to happen, for mistakes and misunderstandings as well as for penalties and punishments. Except, apparently, in HIS case. Somebody mentioned (though not specifically here) "why should he have any special treatment, why shouldn't he be treated like every other member?". Yes, he is a normal user. Which doesn't remove the aegis of treating him as a fellow human being.
As an aside, I have this image of two Titans, clashing over "Debates" and assumptions and foundations of "Knowledge" and then, irrationally, Bugs Bunny pops up chewing a carrot and going "Ehhhh, what's up, Doc?". Only instead of a slight pause while some people giggle at it, everybody is completely loosing their **** over it.
Also, be careful in how you determine what should be tolerated. You may find that you have put yourself on the wrong side of the line, and wouldn't that be embarrassing.
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Lorric has had a very fair opportunity to learn how to interact with other people here. If he genuinely wants to overcome his problems with social interactions there are places for him to do that; a Freespace modding forum has no obligation to provide one.
I could make a fairly lengthy argument how the same could be said about your posting style tbh. You don't mean to imply that the only way to have social interactions here is to make a stream of cynical mean spirited posts and to make sure to let people know how much you don't like a subject matter. Do you? Because that's what a lot of your posts read like to me. Yet here you are, jumping on Lorric.
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And yet Phantom Hoover has been banned and warned for his behaviour on several occasions. Why has Lorric been treated more leniently for behaviour that is just as disruptive? Why hasn't Zacam stepped forwards to take PH under his wing?
So at this point, especially on the point of the post that seems to have served "the final straw", I really do not think that a perma-ban from Gen Disc is going to improve or resolve anything in any significant manner, much less for a desirable positive outcome.
Lorric does generate a significant number of reports from other boards too. If you can stop those, I might believe you can stop others. If you can't, then why should I believe you can have any effect on his behaviour on Gen Discuss?
There are significantly WORSE behaviours in Gen Disc that should be having this focus of attention on them by long standing individuals. But mostly because they ARE long standing, everybody seems content to let that be, so I fail to see why we'll allow for those instances to have their own quarters, but have none here in this case when what we are dealing with at worst is somebody that is new to a place like ours and COULD learn a lot from it, if only we bothered applying both some respect and some patience that we're supposed to have in terms of being the long standing community we are.
And who says Lorric is going to be the only person we're going to deal with this week? Hopefully with more carrot than stick, but why stop at Lorric? Quite frankly I want to see Gen Discuss as the kind of place that people were talking about during the last topic on this subject when we hammered out a new set of guidelines. We're not going to do that if we take on members as special projects and let them continue to drag the place down because we've decided that they're not going to pay for their actions.
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Whatever action is taken I think it shouldn't prevent a given member from asking for tech support or contributing to the mods he works for. I don't want to address this case in particular because I don't believe I know enough to judge anyone here, but I really have to admit that a more or less permanent ban from General Discussion (which, by the way, as a subforum has caused so many problems here I wonder why it still exists) is probably among the best ways to calm people down without actually disrupting modding activities.
As I said, however, it doesn't mean I believe Lorric deserves it.
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A community which will require of every one to learn. Learning happens where you happen to be, simply deciding that he should "do it elsewhere" isn't an answer, because then we'd just be a ghost town while everybody did all their "learning" somewhere else. Deciding that YOU don't want to partake in that is all well and fine, but deciding that it just doesn't get to happen period here? That's just sad.
Not true. You are inventing an obligation to assist others out of whole cloth; this is something we have never done before and will very likely never do again. The services by the moderation that have been offered to Lorric have been offered to no other member, new or old. It isn't as if anyone offered to be Liberator's or Trashman's personal guardian angel when they were given the boot from GenDisc. Liberator would have actually fit most of the same criteria of behavior, and was probably a better candidate considering he showed actual public contrition on occasion rather than relentless public noncomprehension.
Furthermore, the obligation you are positing does not exist inside the rules of the forum (self-explanatory, go look) or its mission; FreeSpace discussion and modding. There is nothing inherently requiring us to socialize those without social experience. (Please note wording, someone will try to misinterpret that.) We are certainly not under obligation to help someone work through their persistent socialization issues; like Wikipedia, while we may have sympathy for those with issues mental, social, or otherwise, our site is not meant to help them through it and they will not get much useful help here.
Furthermore, as you note, Lorric has been here three years. Whatever obligation we had to help him learn the social ropes of this particular forum (not the social ropes in general, because as noted this implies issues far more serious than we are either obliged or equipped to handle), has expired. Even the most generous of newbie grace periods, say a year and a half, has passed. We do have actual reform cases on record here, Cobra comes to mind, and none of them took longer than that.
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To be honest, Lorric. I don't think you are missing out much by not posting in GD. You should just take this in stride, keep HLP as a source for Freespace related things and find some other forum for general conversation.
And yet Phantom Hoover has been banned and warned for his behaviour on several occasions. Why has Lorric been treated more leniently for behaviour that is just as disruptive? Why hasn't Zacam stepped forwards to take PH under his wing?
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ You tell me, I don't run this place.
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I don't think the obligation of being tolerant and understanding towards each other is ever expired. I should also note that you speak as if Lorric of 2011 = Lorric of 2014. I don't think both avatar personas would even recognize each other of being from the same genetic family.
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It's not even true. A gen disc perma and one month ban are far worse than the cumulative bans PH has received.
I don't think the obligation of being tolerant and understanding towards each other is ever expired. I should also note that you speak as if Lorric of 2011 = Lorric of 2014. I don't think both avatar personas would even recognize each other of being from the same genetic family.
Pretty much.
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People arguing against moderators helping Lorric out simply because they've never done that before are basically throwing out fancy versions of "That's not faaaaaaair!" (complete with the whine)
Several things come to mind here... and I post this knowing that here on HLP, someone will find a way to twist what I'm saying to make it seem like I'm a turd for even thinking it. But whatever.
1: The moderation team should never be bound for eternity by what they have or haven't done in the past. (I'm talking about actions, not posted rules or commitments.) The team has changed. People change. The forum changes. If you hold the moderation team to "they never helped anyone before" then you should probably hold them to the older moderation standards that everyone already *****ed and moaned about.
2: Life isn't fair. People get treated differently. If you think HLP is going to be your place to make a stand on that universal issue... good luck, man. Good luck. Just because someone helps one person out does not automatically obligate them to help all people out. That's a **** standard and you all know it.
3: Lorric, at least to me, has reached out in private over and over again. When he reaches out to me (again, where none of you can see it), he is asking in an honest tone "What did I do wrong?", "How can I not do that again?", "What is going on in that thread that caused THAT to happen?". My point is that YOU may not see it, but Lorric is trying. Tossing him off the bus because it's taking a little longer than YOU (selfishly) may like... well, I think that's pretty stupid.
4: Most of the time, GenDisc could be relabeled to "Non-FS Threads of Epic HLP Fights"... and Lorric is who everyone is worried about? What about the intolerant assholes who post in threads just to stir it up? C'mon, we all know who they are. They are the reason I stopped regularly reading GenDisc.
5: This.
To be honest, Lorric. I don't think you are missing out much by not posting in GD. You should just take this in stride, keep HLP as a source for Freespace related things and find some other forum for general conversation.
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The problem with simply locking the thread is that it goes too far in the other direction.
People have repeatedly asked the moderators to lock threads less and allow the community to moderate itself more.
I don't particularly want to see controversial topics locked the second they get heated.
The question is, were the community living up to that agreement in that particular thread? An agreement is a two-way thing and there had already been a LOT of reports for that thread, that had been mentioned. This wasn't the second it got heated, it was considerably beyond that point.
If you are going to make some kind of 'deal' with us, we should be just as expected to keep to that deal as Admin is.
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Why not just instruct someone not to post in a particular thread if they are disrupting it? That was spoken of in the new guidelines. That was to stop threads going to hell and swinging the hammer unnecessarily.
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People arguing against moderators helping Lorric out simply because they've never done that before are basically throwing out fancy versions of "That's not faaaaaaair!" (complete with the whine)
Several things come to mind here... and I post this knowing that here on HLP, someone will find a way to twist what I'm saying to make it seem like I'm a turd for even thinking it. But whatever.
1: The moderation team should never be bound for eternity by what they have or haven't done in the past. (I'm talking about actions, not posted rules or commitments.) The team has changed. People change. The forum changes. If you hold the moderation team to "they never helped anyone before" then you should probably hold them to the older moderation standards that everyone already *****ed and moaned about.
Indeed. It should be an evolving process, ever moving towards improvement for the good of all.
3: Lorric, at least to me, has reached out in private over and over again. When he reaches out to me (again, where none of you can see it), he is asking in an honest tone "What did I do wrong?", "How can I not do that again?", "What is going on in that thread that caused THAT to happen?". My point is that YOU may not see it, but Lorric is trying. Tossing him off the bus because it's taking a little longer than YOU (selfishly) may like... well, I think that's pretty stupid.
And that is why Zacam and Black Wolf have helped me. Because I asked them humbly for help. Not because I am "the chosen one." Others have not been so kind. And people would criticise them for their efforts? Goober deserves inclusion here too, for he has given me plenty of help too, especially in the period of my one month ban.
5: This.
To be honest, Lorric. I don't think you are missing out much by not posting in GD. You should just take this in stride, keep HLP as a source for Freespace related things and find some other forum for general conversation.
While I do appreciate the sentiment, the decision should still be mine to make. Right now, I have to do that whether I like it or not.
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People arguing against moderators helping Lorric out simply because they've never done that before are basically throwing out fancy versions of "That's not faaaaaaair!" (complete with the whine)
Several things come to mind here... and I post this knowing that here on HLP, someone will find a way to twist what I'm saying to make it seem like I'm a turd for even thinking it. But whatever.
If that is honestly what you think is being said, then you didn't read what's been posted very closely at all. Not only is it unique to Lorric, Lorric has not even been the best candidate for rehabilitation in this fashion, and his issues are arguably beyond what the moderators should be trying to help with as amateurs at this point.
And you're right, only it's not twisting.
If you're going to argue that moderation is inherently unfair and we should just live with that, then you've basically missed the trajectory that moderation discussion has been on since I've come to these forums and the general trajectory of thought about systems of governance in the last several hundred years of human civilization. The search for and creation of progressively more fair and equitable systems has been the goal of every rules discussion we've had on the forums and a major driving force in human political evolution. Fairness is not just something we want; it's something we need to believe in.
Your hackneyed cynicism offers us nothing of interest. We know the system is unfair, just as we know we do not want it to be, and hence we are having this discussion at least in part because fairness is a trait we all desire the system to get better at. If you merely want to complain about the status quo ante, make your own thread. The rest of us are going to try and solve what we perceive to be a problem.
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I am now a turd, but I stand by my comments.
If you want to get all philosophical about fairness... Well... Fairness is not an even playing field for all people in all circumstances. If that were the case, then it would not be fair that my 3 year old gets time-outs for fussing while my 1 1/2 year old does not. They are different ages, different levels of maturity, in different states of leading social norms, and so the punishment takes that into account.
I would still like to see Black Wolfs comments before you all continue dogpiling on a harmless member rather than getting furious about the other assholes in GenDisc who have been here far longer.
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I would still like to see Black Wolfs comments before you all continue dogpiling on a harmless member rather than getting furious about the other assholes in GenDisc who have been here far longer.
Yes, and people want to talk about fairness...
How confusing it is for me trying to learn what is acceptable and is not under these conditions...
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I would still like to see Black Wolfs comments before you all continue dogpiling on a harmless member rather than getting furious about the other assholes in GenDisc who have been here far longer.
People keep assuming we're not planning on dealing with them too.
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NGTM is fundamentally wrong in almost all levels here. Before that, let's not dwell much about the kind of usual insulting snarkiness with sentences like "And you're right, only it's not twisting.", but I think I'm obliged to say they aren't unnoticed.
Now, NG speaks about how Lorric hasn't been "the best candidate". I don't honestly know what this can possibly mean, outside of a weird self-entitled feeling of unjustice regarding how Lorric was better treated than some aledged other. This is an entirely subjective assessment, and yet it is declared with the tone of voice of moral authority from some high panteon or something. NG is not even a moderator. What is objective and already established is that Lorric was proactive in trying to both understand his failures and asking for help. Perhaps we could ask all those poor others if they were as much proactive or if they were just continuing their typical behavior even in PMs, but is this really a necessity? Speaking about "others" being "unjustly" treated in relation to Lorric would signify one is in possession of all these background facts and conversations, and as far as I am aware, none of these facts support this conclusion.
Hackneyed or not, MJN is perfectly entitled to state that "fairness" is not an objective assessment, it's always imperfect and all authority actions will always be considered "unfair" by a good amount of people. It's the nature of institutions and humans, I've yet to encounter an institution wherein all humans think it's amazingly fair without brainwashing or totalitarian mind control being happening. And I find the remark that mjn's "cynicism" is offering a plural person nothing of interest extremely weird at best. It is my own etiquette that I'll always only speak for myself, and so I have a hard time swallowing other people speaking for a vague and abstract unnamed "us" that seem to bear some kind of number support to one's own opinion.
Regardless, I haven't seen any attempt by mjn to bow down to any status quo or give in to any cynicism. All I saw was a fair attempt to have some sense of proportion to the ambition of having a "perfect" judicial system of every single behavior here. I'll also note that Karajorma's small tip that things shouldn't go unpunished reveals a kind of ... philosophy on how to deal with things that I honestly don't believe in (I am fully aware and at peace that the institutions might not share my philosophies).
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You think that misrepresenting Black Wolf and Zacam to save his own skin shouldn't go unpunished?
I don't know if you noticed it, but he pretty much started this debate trying to paint the picture that he wasn't aware of any issues surrounding his recent posts, as if this had come completely out of the blue. That narrative does not match Zacam's and I'm seriously in doubt it will match Black Wolf's given that I have access to something Black Wolf said recently.
So yes, if Lorric is going to start a thread accusing me of lying or blaming Black Wolf and he turns out to be the one lying, there will indeed be repercussions.
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I'm telling the truth. Let's see them come in here and say otherwise.
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Okay, lets get this crystal clear then.
Black Wolf has been working with me in recent times. Just on the 21st August I checked in with him after not hearing from him for a month. I asked if there were any problems with any of my posts or if I had been reported and he said no. I have heard nothing since of any problems.
So Zacam didn't notify you of any issues? Or do you simply mean that you heard nothing from Black Wolf?
It's not personal. Either you are lying, or Black Wolf did not follow through on his promise to tell me if I'm getting reported.
Okay, how many times did he tell you that you had been reported then?
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Recently, nothing from Black Wolf telling me I've been reported and the one report I specified with Zacam.
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For which date?
EDIT: I also had a chat with Black Wolf on either the end of the 27th or start of 28th about various things. That would have been a perfect opportunity to introduce concerns into the conversation. He said nothing, we just had a friendly chat.
So are you telling me he didn't tell you that you were reported on the 25th? It's possible that the report was closed before he saw it actually. Did Zacam tell you?
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The 25th. Zacam spoke to me about the 25th.
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I generally leave these threads alone, and if I do decide to weigh in, I try to be as tactful as possible, I say this because I have a feeling that I am about to fail miserably.
Karajorma, you and I have always spoken to one another with respect and friendship, as such I have always taken it for granted that there was a modicum of respect between us. So, accept this in the spirit that it is meant. You need to read this thread and not reply. The very title of this thread is an attack on you personally, and as such your judgement in this matter is suspect. You need to step away.
As far as the matter at large is concerned, it is actually quite simple. Someone was given a probation officer. They did not modify their behavior. There are repercussions. ****ing get over it. God this smoke filled coffee house lawyer bull**** pisses me off. The bottom line is simple, we get told where we **** up, it is up to us to learn from it. If we refuse to learn from it, there are repercussions. Some of us get so busy taking an internal moral high ground that we fail to see anything beyond that. People get so worried about the next guy that they expect to be treated like him. I'm sorry but reality is that examples get made. It is my fervent hope that examples continue to get made. Maybe when enough examples are made a discussion of something inherently controversial can happen instead of an argument. Give more people probation officers, then give em enough rope and see what they do with it. Anyone with a shred of intelligence would have realized what was going on. So Lorric, if you didn't realize what was happening the way Cobra did when I did what I could to help him along, it is the fault of no one but yourself. Get over it.
I've long held to the fact that we will never believe in something more deeply than when we are forced to defend it. This thread is filled with people defending what they believe, because this thread is filled with people attacking those same said beliefs.
I find it ridiculous to think that people get so wrapped up in being right, that they don't bother to think about whether or not they ARE right.
The outcome of this thread would have been the same in one post as opposed to three pages. Lorric you were given chances, you blew it. Be a man, suck it up, deal with it. You created this thread and named it as such in order to garner attention, you succeeded. Now your 15 minutes are up. Move along.
Have all the fun you want with this post, I will read, but not reply. Have your rebuttal, and call it a day.
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Was actually about to suggest it was taken down a notch, but oh well, it's not like ShadowWolf has actually said something that isn't true. Though I would add that attention-seeking is sometimes the result of desperation rather than selfishness, but there's no doubt the thread title wasn't the best one to choose and was designed to attract attention, which kicked this thread off on the wrong foot in the first place.
Ironically, you've summed up the curse of GD in general in a couple of paragraphs.
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Karajorma, you and I have always spoken to one another with respect and friendship, as such I have always taken it for granted that there was a modicum of respect between us. So, accept this in the spirit that it is meant. You need to read this thread and not reply. The very title of this thread is an attack on you personally, and as such your judgement in this matter is suspect. You need to step away.
ShadowWolf, I don't think you need to worry about me taking something you say the wrong way. :D
I have no problem stepping aside and leaving the matter to be resolved. I'll reserve my comments for the moderation forum as long as I feel the matter is being dealt with fairly.
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I don't know what Black Wolf will say, I'm only me. But I don't see a disconnect of narrative or a misrepresentation taking place in terms of myself.
As Mjn points out, Lorric does engage whenever either something happens, or if he's not sure if something is going to happen. And he does it in the context of trying to find out what went wrong. I have discussed any and every report he's been made aware of that he brings to my attention. I discussed with him reports that he's made. And in each case I've been satisfied with the progression of conversation. That I treat them as confidential is something that I do for everybody, so I can understand that there may be cause for frustration when the idea that progress is somehow immediate doesn't make itself obvious as being such, but that's hardly my problem.
Also as has been pointed out, telling us what we've never done before as a counter argument to why we shouldn't be doing it in the first place, THAT is whole cloth. As for prior individuals, their circumstances were before my time, I have no idea what level of engagement THEY sought out with regards to their problems. Maybe they felt that they didn't have any, which only made matters worse. If people have gotten used to the idea that they get to drive out people that they don't "get" or understand or feel don't fit into their criteria, that's on them to deal with the disappointment, because any community that wants to call itself such DOES have a responsibility.
We're supposed to function more than just "keep the lights on". If that WAS our only function, this discussion wouldn't be taking place, and we'd likely have even fewer members as every board would be like Gen Disc. We Administrate and Moderate not just the forum in a technical aspect, but also in a Community aspect, which to my mind entails that we deal with people and their problems.
Did I decide to step up and handle this? Not as such, no. But I was reached out to and asked for assistance and clarification and help. And not for the first time, probably not for the last time. That nobody else reaches/has reached out to me, is nothing more than that they haven't done so.
As for the argument that "Well, this is just a modding forum" as if that resolves everything nicely, it doesn't. Just because we are specific in our underlying/over-arching purpose doesn't mean we get to be exclusionary of who gets to be a part of it. We've already had plenty of people leave this community who would have been outstanding contributors. We have no idea how many people have frankly not even bothered.
In any case, the specifics for how long said ban will be in effect for will happen internally. As will discussions regarding who said what to whom. I still don't agree with the post that was specifically made into the "last straw" per-se, which will also be a part of that conversation, but I can acknowledge the idea of persistent presence leading to action and so far as actions are concerned, GenDisc ban alone is the least amount of disruption even though I really don't feel it is necessary at this immediate time.
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So as I understand the situation
Lorric's behavior has been noted by the moderating and to some degree the admin staff of the forum
at some point in the last 60+ days some of the mod/admin staff took the very unusual step of intervening on Lorric's behalf and attempt to help Lorric become a less ???reported??? member of the community
In the last week+ parts of that plan seem to have come undone and a GD ban (monkeying?) of yet indeterminate length is in place
...................
Most of the admin/moderation members are of the opinion that the normal policy of warning followed by Bans if that fails should be maintained??????
Some believe that a more educational/Carrot+Stick approach should be taken?
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So for what it's worth
1.) My opinion reflects those that say that informal agreements like this cant be forever binding and for an undertaking like this is no improvement is observed by the general community then I think it does need to be re-examined by those involved.
2.) As someone who averages 2-4 reports per year which I am notified of I find it outstanding that this has gone on for so long.
3.) Is it possible to implement and if so what are the merits of implementing a thread based "cooldown" option where a mod can place someone a block from posting to a thread for a set time which auto reverts at the end of this time as a formal step in between reports and ban/monkey
4.) Ultimately in this case we sorely need BW's input for this thread to progress in a manner most advantageous to the community.
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Zacam: One last thing: is Lorric's decision to air all this in public not, in itself, an actionable offence? That was definitely the impression you gave me when discussing my ban.
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Zacam: One last thing: is Lorric's decision to air all this in public not, in itself, an actionable offence? That was definitely the impression you gave me when discussing my ban.
It has proved to be in the past, Trashman springs to mind.
the norm is certainly to take it up with the mod/admins involved in pm, though given how things seem to have played out (to my understanding) over the last few months, I am interested to see how this plays out, and who knows it may yet happen, but I also think in times like this its best to let things play out while they are reasonable and make a final judgment at the end, while the public court holds some influence in HLP, it must also be noted that often it can have the reverse effect on the final decision or be insufficient / discounted entirely for the final call.
edit
clarified where mod/admin discussions normally should happen
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It's alright if it's done in site support in a separate thread. It's not alright if it's done in the thread the moderation took place in because that derails the thread.
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Now, NG speaks about how Lorric hasn't been "the best candidate". I don't honestly know what this can possibly mean,
It's literally explained. It's even criteria that can be evaluated regarding public displays of contrition for bad behavior. If you don't read my previous postings before trying to read my current ones, you may not understand. This is something I've seen done many times to various people; MP-Ryan most recently in our thread on the latest women in gaming blowup, where people refuse to read his postings except in isolation.
They're not meant to be read in isolation. Posts build on previous posts.
What is objective and already established is that Lorric was proactive in trying to both understand his failures and asking for help.
I'd want to see what he said before I made that assumption. Reaching out isn't necessarily a sign of seeking understanding; it can, for example, be a sign of continuing to badger or seeking to argue by other means. I don't know what Lorric was trying to accomplish there, and I'm not sure anyone but Lorric does given the demonstrated fact of his difficulties communicating. If this actually happened in a private appeal to the moderators, perhaps so, but I point you to the many, many threads where Lorric failed to understand that he was doing something wrong despite repeated attempts by people like The E and MP-Ryan and myself and probably a half-dozen others to explain with varying levels of patience and gentleness. Go look at the Tropes vs. Women threads for examples. He eventually progressed to outright dismissing people trying to explain a failure to him; witness his recently locked thread in Gaming Discussion where he told off Scotty for trying to explain that his effort was misguided.
If that's your definition of proactive, okay, but I don't know that he actually sought anyone out and asked them to explain his failures, and I can produce plenty of evidence that suggests the opposite.
Hackneyed or not, MJN is perfectly entitled to state that "fairness" is not an objective assessment, it's always imperfect and all authority actions will always be considered "unfair" by a good amount of people. It's the nature of institutions and humans, I've yet to encounter an institution wherein all humans think it's amazingly fair without brainwashing or totalitarian mind control being happening.
That has...pretty much nothing to do with my statement at all. The point is not that fairness is possible; it is that the very reason for this discussion is because at least some of the participants that we should be trying to be fair, and coming in and announcing "nothing's fair get over it" offers nothing to a discussion of how this event is or is not fair and how it could be handled better. MJN's post announcing that nothing is fair does not contribute to that discussion; it announces facts we already know and are arguably related, but aren't really of interest to the discussion of how fair this was and how it could be moreso. It also claims none of us should care, and we're whiny if we do.
Lorric and I obviously do care. I daresay Karajorma and ShadowWolf appear to care about the fairness of the outcome because they seem to have stated it was fair, and done so as though that matters to them. In case it's not obvious I think it was more than fair and I'm curious why this approach was adopted; Lorric apparently does not think it was fair. That's a lot of whining.
Also as has been pointed out, telling us what we've never done before as a counter argument to why we shouldn't be doing it in the first place, THAT is whole cloth. As for prior individuals, their circumstances were before my time, I have no idea what level of engagement THEY sought out with regards to their problems. Maybe they felt that they didn't have any, which only made matters worse. If people have gotten used to the idea that they get to drive out people that they don't "get" or understand or feel don't fit into their criteria, that's on them to deal with the disappointment, because any community that wants to call itself such DOES have a responsibility.
We're supposed to function more than just "keep the lights on". If that WAS our only function, this discussion wouldn't be taking place, and we'd likely have even fewer members as every board would be like Gen Disc. We Administrate and Moderate not just the forum in a technical aspect, but also in a Community aspect, which to my mind entails that we deal with people and their problems.
It's weird reading this, because it talks around the points I was making yet acts as if it was addressing them.
The idea that if someone reaches out to the mods and asks for explanation they will be treated better is not merely new, it's probably in direct contrast to most public experiences with the mods. Phantom Hoover was recently not treated better when he requested someone end his monkeying as it had been scheduled. Lorric isn't being treated better now. Trashman hasn't been treated better for discussing his issues; we've had at least one person banned because they continued to protest what they had done was innocent (it wasn't, pretty much everyone agreed, but pattern of behavior). In private I have little reason to think things are different, and have some personal experience that says otherwise when I was in a similar situation to Phantom Hover. How many of us as children argued with their parents or teacher over a punishment and were punished worse because of it?
When we had a discussion about people not using the report system, it was made a point that people didn't do so because mod intervention was far too much like summoning Godzilla, the results were unpredictable and destructive. The idea that when punished we should try to engage and discuss this with our punishers is...well, on a personal level, I can't really think of many times trying to do so has ended well for me in life and I doubt I'm alone in that. Lorric being willing to speaks to his courage, or perhaps his separation from normal behavior and life experience. Which ties in as evidence of my next point applying.
You've entirely ignored the point that someone with such obvious, longstanding, and intractable issues is probably in need of help beyond that laymen should be giving, and there's a good chance by allowing them to continue we're making things worse. (To say nothing of the net loss to the community via aggravation, derailment, and the urge to abandon civility in the face of an apparently pointless struggle.) To use a past example, we all knew there was something very bizarre about High Max's behavior, and while some people speculated he was autistic or had other mental difficulties, I don't think we have any qualified psychologists about who should have been diagnosing, much less trying to help, someone with his issues. Something similar can be said of the current case; we are not dealing with someone who merely flies into a rage about certain issues like Liberator with perceived attacks on religion or Kazan's "Free Willy" circumcision meltdowns. There is a fundamental disconnect between the thinking of the person in question and a fair number of forumites who have tried to explain various issues to him, and it is not something any of us (barring, again, the qualified psychologist on staff I don't know about) are equipped to diagnose, much less fix. It's admirable he wants help, if that is his intent, and admirable you desire to help him. But you are ignoring the question of whether you actually know how to help or that help is something you should be trying to give someone when you don't.
There comes an end to your competencies, a point beyond which your desire to help is no longer enough to enable you to do so, and I would submit that over the last three years and all that has occurred in them, many people have tried to help and/or explain, and none of them has made an impact over the long term. The problem is beyond your ability, as it was beyond Battuta's, as it was beyond The E's, as it was beyond mine, as it was beyond MP-Ryan, as it was beyond pretty much everyone else who tried to explain to Lorric why his latest posting provoked a negative response or why everyone didn't think he should have been involved in a particular debate or why he was factually incorrect about a particular issue or why he didn't understand a particular issue he was holding forth about.
It's the same thing over and over again. And it's time to recognize that we can't help, and that trying is hurting us.
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Eloquently put points, even if I don't entirely agree with the summation of them all, that is indeed a good and thoughtful post that I'm going to re-read later.
I'll submit that my aid to Lorric may not be enough, as true. But as it is a more recent development in terms of the nature and level of it, whether I've reached a point beyond my capability is not an assumption anybody else gets to make just yet. Saying that you are helping somebody is also dependent on HOW you are helping them, and not all forms of what somebody might think of "helping" are the same, nor will they generate the same results. This doesn't make any one method inherently better or worse, these are not cookies being cut where they will all be identical in form and function.
For instance, there is a difference between talking TO somebody vs. talking WITH somebody and that is just as different as talking DOWN to somebody as if it'll make a point. They all involve "talking" but in different ways. Whether or not I will prove at being effective still remains to be seen, but I'm not as blind or oblivious as you seem to think I am and the nature of our individual abilities are derived from our personalities, circumstances and several other factors that would make for a lengthy list if I tried to lay them all out. Suffice, we are each different. I'm not assuming there will be success, but I'm not going to assume that there will be failure without attempting for success just because nobody else has achieved it.
I am hoping that the days of "Summon Godzilla!" (much less as a "And then I win the Internet") are going away, because yes, that is intrinsically flawed by any measure. And I find it disheartening that people don't feel that they have an ability for appeals or discussion about how the system has applied to them, but maybe that's because they don't know how to in a manner that results in actual conversation rather than just butting heads and requiring flame-retardant clothing. And we're certainly not "Parental" figures to the forum, even if many of our members are not of an age of majority or consent in their country of residence.
As for separations from "normal" behaviour and/or life experiences, depends on your definition of what constitutes normal, which again is going to have a significant number of factors in play to the extent that trying to define what "normal" is isn't going to get us very far. In terms of the context of this forum, even if somebody by all notions isn't "normal" is that necessarily the only emphasis we need for ejecting them out of hand? Treating one person as other people have been treated because you think they fit the context of those other people, removes the context of treating them as the individual they are.
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You have read what ShadowWolf said, right? Because it basically says all that needs to be said here.
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I'm sorry its taken me so long to get around to this thread - I've had time to read, but the half hour of solid time that it takes to sit down and write a proper response has been lacking in my life lately. But I do have some things to say.
The arrangement with Lorric came about for the simple reason that he asked for help, which is something that I have never actually seen before. It wasn't a case of asking for special treatment or asking to have some moderation action undone - it was a case of a forum member recognizing that he wasn't fitting in, and trying to get help to change that. The reason that it hasn't happened before is because, to the best of my knowledge, nobody has ever asked for that kind of help before. The vast majority of user-moderator interactions tend to be hostile, unfortunately, as opposed to constructive - this was something new.
The nature of the agreement wasn't that Lorric would get any kind of special treatment - it was that I would try to talk to him and tell him when he was potentially going to cause trouble, out that he could talk to me when he wasn't sure about something, and that he wouldn't get unilaterally banned from the forum by admins or mods that he perceived hostility from. Not that he wouldn't be banned - just that it would happen in an environment of consensus, which, frankly, is pretty much how almost all major mod decisions get made.
Now, whether it worked out not is open for debate, but I think that Lorric's forum interactions have improved gradually over time, from both before and after we started communicating. I think the fact that someone like Sppon, with whom Lorric has had well known issues in the past, is willing to take part in this thread in a non confrontational way, is testament to that.
In terms of specific issues, who was told about what and when, yes, maybe there could have been more communication in the last several weeks, but this whole series of incidents has moved relatively quickly - the PM Lorric had spoken about where I told him things were going well happened prior to the explosion of reports and counter reports that set this whole process off.
With regards to the actual ban, well, a few days ago I was entirely in support - it shouldn't be underestimated how frustrating dealing with all of the forum drama can be. Even now, I don't think that a degree of time of from GD is unwarranted - I will be discussing the reasons why with Lorric privately, they certainly don't need any more sorting than they already receive.
Finally, I really think that this topic had very little potential to go well. This is something that the mods and admins need to discuss, and Lorric needs to be involved in, but I don't see much benefit from making a further public spectacle out of it.
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I will just point out the following regarding the reports. While they used to be "GODZILLA SUMMON GO!", it went better to "**** gets sorted out quickly".
Now, now its just "nothing happens and the reporter gets hit with a stick because its very definitely an "unwarranted report"". (and yes, i know, my particular style of reports hasnt served me any justice, no need to remind me.)
And Lorric has had his 3 years of trying to fit in. Frankly, i am amazed he managed to amass 2k posts in that time.
Is this community obliged to help him fit in? No.
He has also questioned his ban, publicly and as recent cases demonstrate, this should've warranted an immediate, even heavier stick to come down on him. Yet he ends up being protected.
All i can see here is a heavy case of favorizing and its beyond anything i can remember having happened in the last few years here.
As far as i see this, i am sorry, moderation is not supposed to be "fair", "caring" or "helping people adjust". Moderation is supposed to keep the house whole when somebody tries to destroy it.
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Now, whether it worked out not is open for debate, but I think that Lorric's forum interactions have improved gradually over time, from both before and after we started communicating. I think the fact that someone like Sppon, with whom Lorric has had well known issues in the past, is willing to take part in this thread in a non confrontational way, is testament to that.
Hmm to quote Luis Dias on this I should also note that you speak as if Lorric of 2011 = Lorric of 2014. I don't think both avatar personas would even recognize each other of being from the same genetic family.
Back in 2012, Lorric made a string of rather unforunate posts that pretty much put him under a giant magnifying glass for the rest of his time here. (Amusingly, the rest of the forum was probably more upset about those posts than I was). It was incredibly naïve of him and for the longest of time he believed he had done little to be faulted for.
Buuuut, Lorric has done a fair amount of learning and has actively tried to change and I do think a lot of that shows now in his posts. (Sure, he might not be a snarky asshat yet that seems to be half the requirement to fit in with GD but hey.) Zacam asked me once what my opinion on the matter was and I vouched for Lorric, he still has a ways to go, but I saw he was definitely improving and felt like he should be given the chance to develop. I mean, if you look at the post quality of a long standing member like Nuke who shows no signs of improving at all...
Now mind you, this is not a plea on his behalf to not have him be banned from GD or anything (if anything I think a ban like that will do him good, even if he doesnt see it himself), I'm just sharin' ya know.
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To be honest, Lorric. I don't think you are missing out much by not posting in GD. You should just take this in stride, keep HLP as a source for Freespace related things and find some other forum for general conversation.
Buuuut, Lorric has done a fair amount of learning and has actively tried to change and I do think a lot of that shows now in his posts. (Sure, he might not be a snarky asshat yet that seems to be half the requirement to fit in with GD but hey.)
4: Most of the time, GenDisc could be relabeled to "Non-FS Threads of Epic HLP Fights"... and Lorric is who everyone is worried about? What about the intolerant assholes who post in threads just to stir it up? C'mon, we all know who they are. They are the reason I stopped regularly reading GenDisc.
When you've got two such prominent members of this community who feel this way about the Gen Disc forum, I think this is indicative of a much larger problem in that forum than anything I might have done to disrupt it. Since this thread seems to have basically run its course, at least for now, with regards to me, I'd be interested in seeing some discussion of this, since we've already seen some discussion about the wider community in here.
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It might be indicative of such but given the nature of this thread and your part in it, I strongly advise you to not make any attempt to guide or lead or advise that particular can of worms. If that particular conversation occurs I even advise you to lay low and merely lurk the debate, don't participate in any way. If you don't understand why, at least be aware of the absolute certainty that your presence in that discussion, given this thread, would drive some particular people up the wall and utterly wreck it from the get go.
Having said this, all I want to add is that you should henceforth accept the temporary ban as it is and not take it to heart. I have to agree that while I am sympathetic to you, this kind of thread is not kosher, especially when you are basically accusing someone we widely respect as someone with great character, honesty and commitment as "lying". No matter how you may feel it accurately describes your situation well, it certainly won't get moderators to bend your ways.
I Finally I had things to say regarding what NG said, not so much a factual disagreement, more lione'sphilosophical difference or one of attitude. I do think what NG said is fair from a certain point if view, it's probably a matter of degree. I don't agree with this notion that problems have their own specialist boxes and that if everyone would just get to go away to their own specialist box to fix their precise problem then every thing works out. I have this idea where we are all part of a human community and that empathy and a degree of tolerance is absolutely required for us not only to get along, but to avoid everyone be tossed into their own box.
I don't think NG even disagrees with me here, as I said it all probably boils down to one's degree.
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It might be indicative of such but given the nature of this thread and your part in it, I strongly advise you to not make any attempt to guide or lead or advise that particular can of worms. If that particular conversation occurs I even advise you to lay low and merely lurk the debate, don't participate in any way. If you don't understand why, at least be aware of the absolute certainty that your presence in that discussion, given this thread, would drive some particular people up the wall and utterly wreck it from the get go.
Thank you. I will take your advice.
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I'm late to this party, and only here because Lorric PM'ed me about it apparently hoping I'd intercede because the guidelines have been violated or something. I'll try to keep this short. Apologies for typos, autocorrect often changes my words to things I did not want to type from things I did because it has the vocabulary of a vacuum cleaner.
1. While I was surprised at the ban reaction, I am also aware that reports and moderation occur behind the scenes. Perhaps the ban was appropriate and perhaps it wasn't - reading this thread has't changed my mind either way.
2. Lorric's behaviour in GD is a far cry from the most disruptive or harmful. Even at his worst he's never been more than persistently and obnoxiously oblivious despite any attempt to correct him. Yes, that's a problem and it acts as a catalyst for flaring tempers, but it strikes me as odd that the irritation Lorric causes gets more moderation than some of the other disruptions.
3. In general - and this is not personal, guys - I don't think the moderators having been doing a stellar job of early intervention to promote better discussion because none of the early stuff is happening in public; rather, it seems the final product is the only real action we see in public, which has zero deterrent effect in general. I think the admin team should reread the guidelines and attempt to shift their work to fit better with their spirit. Progress has been made, but more is needed.
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To clarify, I PM'd MP-Ryan after I posted this:
http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=88302.msg1762203#msg1762203
Saying that those guidelines haven't been followed. It reminded me of his role in their creation.
Thank you for posting MP-Ryan.
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Take a step back.
Y'See, it's this habit of yours of giving in to temptation when two posts previously you had said you would listen to the advice given you by Luis Dias that lands you in these situations in the first place :P
It seems to me there's been a severe breakdown in communication somewhere here, it's good to see the discussion has come down a notch at least.
Now, I'll say again that everything ShadowWolf said was true, that's not a judgement on Lorrics behaviour, it's a judgement on some of the more unsavoury moments of General Discussion in particular.
I don't want GD to turn into a 'have your drama here zone', nor do I particularly want it to see a place where only rage inducing threads are of interest. We've had some wonderful conversations in there on such topics as Interstellar Travel, the definition of 'Human', the early moments of the Universe, we've even managed to have intelligent and well-mannered debates on things like Global Warming, Interpretation of Religious text, Freedom of Speech etc, the list goes on. It is possible, we have done it.
I like that side of General Discussion, I'd like to see more of that kind of stuff, but members of this community have admitted in the past that they avoid it because it's too much Drama. I'd rather have a GD that was avoided for the opposite reason, because it's for General Discussion not Drama.
That doesn't mean banning any subject or opinion, I believe this community is smart enough to be able to have conversations on most topics and remain respectful of those they disagree with, it just takes a bit of self-control, Moderation is not censorship, it's keeping things Moderate, the clue is in the name.
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members of this community have admitted in the past that they avoid it because it's too much Drama.
I fall into that category.
we've even managed to have intelligent and well-mannered debates on things like Global Warming, Interpretation of Religious text, Freedom of Speech etc, the list goes on. It is possible, we have done it.
I've taken part in some of those. I also took part in a discussion between people from two separate religions, and it was in fact a discussion. It can happen. In order for this to happen, perceived respect must be present. Note, perceived respect. I am not saying that we should all respect one another, although it would be nice I know that it will not happen. However, if you perceive respect from someone, you are less likely to take offense at something that they say. If they perceive respect, they are less likely as well. Respect doesn't have to be real, simply perceived. Post from a position of respect, and many many problems will be avoided.
We have discussed the behavior in GenDisc many times, and there have been a number of opinions on what to do about it. My answer is the simple approach. Three strikes within a one year period = monkey for a month. Making a public spectacle such as this = yet another month. Things of this nature should be handled privately. We have IRC rooms, it wouldn't be hard to set a time and date for a discussion to take place that works for all parties NEEDING to be involved, in a private chat, and settling it without the interference of the community at large chiming in and mucking up the works. Or you could make a forum called appeals, give the person access, once things are wrapped up, remove access, and delete the thread, this way the next person can't see what transpired.
Personally, the real time chat would be the better option, as I know how we loathe thread deletion.
Remember though, if we speak from a position of wanting to avoid conflict, we will generally succeed, and then there will be no need for anything beyond the discussion.
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Do you really mean monkey there? Monkeying is a ban from everywhere but site support and internals; political prisoners is the one that keeps you out of GD, and I think it's much more appropriate in cases such as this.
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yeah....that's what I meant GenDisc ban.
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Of course one does have to be wary of the risks involved with political prisonering, such as the offender being accidentally made an admin.
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omg that would be hilarious. especially if the offender would be someone like an0n.