Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Mobius on November 06, 2014, 11:34:26 am
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Apparently, and it seems official now (http://www.starwars.com/films/star-wars-episode-vii), Episode VII now has its own and official title, which is The Force Awakens.
(http://cdnvideo.dolimg.com/cdn_assets/08b55f0c4120dddeb8a4f0a5ffd9cd81f0189b33.jpg)
I can't wait until 12/18/15, damn it! :banghead:
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As I said on twitter just now,
"Curious to realise that "The Force Awakens" shares equal word structure to "The Empire Strikes Back" and not to any of the others
#StarWars"
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YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:yes2: :D :yes:
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Top 3 masochistically hoped for sequel moments:
3) Mark Hamill utters the word "midichlorians"
2) Pep talk from Hayden Christensen force ghost
1) CG Harrison Ford, other actor walks behind him and steps on his tail
DO YOUR WORST DISNEY
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I had also noticed the font style was a lot Star Trek like, and the verge confirmed this (and expanded on it):
http://www.theverge.com/tldr/2014/11/6/7170213/itc-serif-gothic-is-the-thin-kerned-line-between-star-wars-the-verge-and-my-childhood
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It'll be interesting to see how JJ Abrams managed to misunderstand Star Wars.
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Oh come on, nobody really understands Star Wars.
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It'll be interesting to see how JJ Abrams managed to misunderstand Star Wars.
It was his favorite thing in his youth, and his dream was to be involved in one of them. He even directed two Star Trek movies as if they were some kind of Star Wars movies. Well, he got what he wanted, let's see if he gets some good **** done.
He does have TESB's main writer helping him out, and let's be honest, it's really hard to top the last three movies in terms of epic badness.
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There were exactly three reasons to watch the prequels (or at least, the last two. The first one verges on parody). The first two are Christopher Lee and Samuel L. Jackson. The third is that they're movies in which both Christopher Lee and Samuel L. Jackson appear (not in the same scene, but still). They should have made the whole prequel trilogy about those two having a lightsaber duel, and it would've been much better. :)
I wonder how the Episode VII will end up. It's unlikely to come out as bad as the prequels, at least, but that's not saying much.
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I'm going to give JJ a chance, because that's how comitted I am to Star Wars. If he blows it, I'll never recover. But I'll watch it anyway.
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That Beat! I'm Done.
Auralnauts version of Prequels is best version. (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLINl9l0igYjzIipxsD4Y59_Jjxe4N3pZo)
On a serious note, I'm interested in seeing if the McQuarrie esq X-Wing teased in some of the promo material is the real deal. McQuarrie's original is a beautiful ship.
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I think it is. And I think JJ's decision to go back to real props instead of CGI is a good one. The casting seems alright as well. If only they keep making good decisions all throughout, it might point to an actual good movie. If it has at least the writing skills of something like Guardians of the Galaxy, then I'll consider that it delivered.
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it's really hard to top the last three movies in terms of epic badness.
Come now, Episode 3 wasn't THAT bad. It was light-years better than 1 and 2, though still not as good as the original trilogy.
FYI, there is a way to watch the entire Star Wars saga [to date] in a manner that makes it somewhat less painful. You watch the films in this order:
4, 5, 2, 3, 6. Notice 1 is missing? That's intentional. It's so terrible there's no need, as its plot is almost entirely unnecessary for the remainder.
You start the series with the strongest two films and preserve the Vader reveal, avoid the awful episode 1 entirely, jump back in time and suffer through episode 2 in the middle for some necessary backstory, proceed to the not-fabulous-but-not-unsalvageable episode 3, then finish it out with the reasonably-done episode 6.
Since I actually quite enjoyed the last two ST films, I remain cautiously optimistic for Star Wars, particularly if they keep Lucas the **** away from the script and particularly the dialog.
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Episode 3 was terrible. I'll impale anyone who disagrees with this assertion of mine. The movie is unbearable at all levels.
Then again, you are the kind of person who badmouthed The Wrath Of Khan, sooooooooooooooooooooooo......
Nevertheless, your list is interesting. It is similar to the "machete" order but without TPM. Well, I'd say my order is highly superior. It's this: 4, 5, 6. It's great! You should try it! It doesn't have any bad movies in it!
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Machete order omits Phantom Menace too. I honestly have no idea what Star Wars fans are so worried about, the franchise has been in the gutter for 30 years.
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Machete order omits Phantom Menace too.
Right, had forgotten this detail.
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Oh come on, nobody really understands Star Wars.
Heretic. You obviously haven't read anything by Timothy Zahn.
Come now, Episode 3 wasn't THAT bad. It was light-years better than 1 and 2, though still not as good as the original trilogy.
ORLY? On the surface, I might agree with you - it comes across as a much less corny movie that 1 and 2. However, once you start to think about events, contexts, and motivations, it loses all semblance of a decent movie and plunges headfirst into WTF-ville.
For example, I'll pick on the opening scene - the space battle and subsequent "rescue" of Palpatine:
A) All is fine and dandy until those buzzdroids start dismantling the Jedi starfighters piloted by Obi-Wan and Anakin. Think about it. You're a Jedi. The Force flows through your whatevers. So when hostile little droids land on your ship and start dismantling it panel by panel, how the **** do you manage to try every trick in the book to try and shake the buggers off except for using the Force to pluck or push them off?
B) There's this moderately large space battle going on over Coruscant - perhaps the most important planet of the entire galaxy - with ships blowing up all over the place. The sides seem fairly evenly matched in terms of ships and firepower. So where'd the battle go once Obi-Wan and Anakin crash-land the ship Palpatine was on? If both sides retreated, why? Did they just keep on slugging it out beyond the cameras? WHAT HAPPENED??!?
I could write more but I'd have to rewatch it and I have better things to do with my time, such as arguing on the internet.
FYI, there is a way to watch the entire Star Wars saga [to date] in a manner that makes it somewhat less painful. You watch the films in this order:
4, 5, 2, 3, 6. Notice 1 is missing? That's intentional. It's so terrible there's no need, as its plot is almost entirely unnecessary for the remainder.
You start the series with the strongest two films and preserve the Vader reveal, avoid the awful episode 1 entirely, jump back in time and suffer through episode 2 in the middle for some necessary backstory, proceed to the not-fabulous-but-not-unsalvageable episode 3, then finish it out with the reasonably-done episode 6.
Indeed, my brother and I are showing the series to a mutual friend in that adjusted machete order (although we did include episode 1 for sh*ts and giggles). She (the SW newb) is a film student, so she was highly critical of the production quality of Ep 4 and 5. She did recognize that they were overall far better movies than 1 and 2, however. She's also annoyed by Threepio far more than I would have imagined (like, Jar-Jar level annoyed), but she does like Yoda and Artoo. Next up is Ep 3, which should be... interesting.
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Picking apart every plot hole in Episode 3 isn't going to get you much but anguish. The abundance of plot holes also doesn't make it less entertaining in a grand sense, so how about we all agree that it wasn't a miraculous spectacle of storytelling that was nonetheless entertaining, and move on?
I'm cautiously optimistic for this one. Optimistic because it's a Star Wars movie without good ol' George. Cautious because with a title like "The Force Awakens" I can already imagine the evil force monsters spilling from the unknown regions.
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Threepio is an obsolete piece of comedic writing... it kinda seems like it was written as mockery of Englishness, trying to compensate for Ben Kenobi's too much coolness. And I agree, it is the main inluence behind Jar Jar.
...how about we all agree that it wasn't a miraculous spectacle of storytelling that was nonetheless entertaining, and move on?.
Because I can't agree with a terrible judgement like calling it "entertaining", sorry.
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...how about we all agree that it wasn't a miraculous spectacle of storytelling that was nonetheless entertaining, and move on?.
Because I can't agree with a terrible judgement like calling it "entertaining", sorry.
Man, it's sure a good thing that word is subjective!
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All my good will from 4 and 5 goes into propping up the lifeless body of 6. 7 is going to have to be so much better than any other JJ Abrams movie, I just... C-3PO wouldn't tell you the odds.
Dude has a writing credit on Armageddon.
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...how about we all agree that it wasn't a miraculous spectacle of storytelling that was nonetheless entertaining, and move on?.
Because I can't agree with a terrible judgement like calling it "entertaining", sorry.
Man, it's sure a good thing that word is subjective!
So you're saying I should join your consensus because the word is subjective? Eh eh, nope. The movie is terrible, and that's my personal assessment. "We" can't all agree with you because "We" probably includes my person and my person won't agree with it! :D
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I actually have fond memories of The Phantom Menace because I watched it when I was four and the spectacle was genuinely overwhelming. Doesn't mean I now think it was in any way a good film, though.
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Oh you youngling. At least you survived.
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none of the Star Wars movies were actually any good, and none of them are good in this day and age.
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not even TESB?
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FS1 > TESB
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Episode 3 was terrible. I'll impale anyone who disagrees with this assertion of mine. The movie is unbearable at all levels.
Then again, you are the kind of person who badmouthed The Wrath Of Khan, sooooooooooooooooooooooo......
Nevertheless, your list is interesting. It is similar to the "machete" order but without TPM. Well, I'd say my order is highly superior. It's this: 4, 5, 6. It's great! You should try it! It doesn't have any bad movies in it!
Get your stake out then, because I don't think Episode 3 (well, aside from it's terrible title) was really all that bad compared to the other Star Wars movies. 1 and 2 were abysmal... let's get that out of the way. But 4 and 5 retain a lot of their credibility from the goodwill they garnered on release, not necessarily how they stand up today. The dialog... oh god, the dialog... Honestly, TESB, widely hailed as the best of the Star wars movies (to date) has absolutely ATROCIOUS dialog writing. So bad that it is visibly painful to some of the actors speaking those lines. Lucas had a neat idea with the universe, but his character writing is plainly awful. TESB stands on its plot - generally - and the performances of some of its strongest actors. Even then, it is not a great movie by the sum of its elements, but rather in spite of them. Star Wars' success had a great deal more to do with spectacle than anything else.
While I'm at it, allow me to commit another sci-fi heresy, because yes, TWOK, widely hailed as the best Star Trek movie, is only the best by virtue of the fact that the others are generally so bad. It is a vastly overrated film among its legions of sci-fi fans, by way of nostalgia, attachment to the characters, and the fact that it is the ONLY example of the Star Trek universe having a irreversible character development (*gasp* characters that grow? NEVAR!) result for one of its primary characters (which they then reversed for Search for Spock anyway; and no, Data in Nemesis doesn't count either because they did the same ****ing thing with B4).
Nerd rage over the purity of Star Wars and Star Trek makes me laugh. The recent 'Trek' movies have been widely successful among non-traditional audiences because they make the universe accessible in a way The Original Series (and its spinoff films) never were. Abrams could do much worse than to replicate those successes in the Star Wars universe.
OK. I'm ready. I've got my fire extinguisher, my steel plate armour, my BBQ (for any incoming steaks... get it?).... bring it :)
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I suppose the thing is with Star Wars was that it was an adequate, if somewhat dated, story told in a new setting.
The original three were somewhat hampered by good story ideas but limited ability to put the idea on screen because of budget, the second three suffered from the opposite, plenty of funding to make it look gorgeous, but it had no idea where it was going when it started, and still very little where it ended. It knew it needed to finish with a young Luke and Leia, but just seemed to meander in that general direction with no real impetus at all.
Also, it's got to the point where I really do think that Lucas is just trolling, as has been suggested before, the things like replacing Darth Vaders image in ROTJ, the 'Han shot first' incident and the whole 'Nooooooo!' thing in return of the Jedi makes me quite convinced that Lucas really didn't care about the movies any more, but just saw a way to make a bit more money before selling it on. That's why I think the sale of the franchise was a good thing in theory.
I suppose the thing is, Star Wars 4-6 were swashbuckling movies with a bit of 'Martial Art Movie' mentality thrown in, there's no questions of whether the good guys are really good or not (even Han just fills the 'Rogue' slot nicely), it's a nice polarized story that progresses moderately smoothly from point A to point B. However 1-3 gets so wrapped up in existential angst that it failed to sell itself to me, the story meandered around, never quite sure of what it was doing or where it was going, and many kinds of 'progression' within the storyline felt forced or too coincidental to work. All the leaping around in the world couldn't quite detract from the feeling the films weren't quite sure where they were going.
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I don't really get the "it's dated" criticism. The dialog and acting in SW is deliberately cheesy and wooden to evoke the film serials that are its primary inspiration. The movies would be awful and totally lacking in charm without that. The whole presentation from the 20th century fox fanfare to the final iris shut on the credits is an homage to golden age hollywood film wizardry. It's "dated" 1936.
Edit: And the plot is dated 4000 BCE so I don't get that either
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It's not so much the 'dated' issue that is the problem as the fact that the limit in finances helped to focus the production team.
As an example, the fate of the Republican council is covered in one sentence from Grand Moff Tarkin in the original series, the Senate has been disbanded and the Emperor has absolute power, there's no need to worry about them.
In the new set of movies it would have involved 20 minutes of dialogue, lots of angst and a whole bunch of CGI Teacups. That was the problem with the new set, it spent too much time feeling like it was just treading water.
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I think the Red Letter Media reviews are great for pointing out just how weird the failings of the prequel films are. Star Wars was built on really basic monomyth foundations with a reliable set of stock characters, and then Lucas somehow completely forgets how to do that and makes three films of awkward fictional politics and overwrought CGI action that completely fails to hit the easy emotional targets.
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Exactly. Plinkett's stuff revealed reams of issues I had with them that I'd never been able to put into words, but always had as this niggling "bleh" feeling. (Well except for I HAET SAND because that's pretty damn easy to put into words.)
As for Episode III in particular, I don't think I've sat through it as a whole since seeing it in theaters, but I do know I left the theater feeling okay-ish about it...and then as the days and weeks progressed I realized more and more that it was crap.
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It's not so much the 'dated' issue that is the problem as the fact that the limit in finances helped to focus the production team.
As an example, the fate of the Republican council is covered in one sentence from Grand Moff Tarkin in the original series, the Senate has been disbanded and the Emperor has absolute power, there's no need to worry about them.
In the new set of movies it would have involved 20 minutes of dialogue, lots of angst and a whole bunch of CGI Teacups. That was the problem with the new set, it spent too much time feeling like it was just treading water.
That I certainly agree with. The prequels are amazing when it comes to wasting the audience's time in the least exciting and rewarding ways possible.
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To be honest, I think Lucas suffered from whatever the Movie version of feature creep is.
As far as J.J.Abrahms directing it, I don't have a problem with that in theory, Star Trek wasn't bad at all, though Into Darkness' ending felt far too 'forced in the mold' as a juxtaposition of the ending of Wrath of Khan. I don't mind a bit of creativity being used and I hope to God he pretends Midichlorians never happened, but I wouldn't necessarily call it a bad choice.
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I first heard they were redoing the original 3 star wars films, i take it that's not true?
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I first heard they were redoing the original 3 star wars films, i take it that's not true?
That's not true.
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I first heard they were redoing the original 3 star wars films, i take it that's not true?
That's not true.
Yeah, it's a shame, too. Doing that would almost be as potential-packed as redoing Matrix Revolutions, and we can't have that, can we?
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If you didn't like the prequels, you might want to check out what THIS (http://swrevisited.wordpress.com/) guy is planning on doing. Now, either his indicated plans for them are total BS, or he's gonna have to make an entirely new movie.
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Exactly. Plinkett's stuff revealed reams of issues I had with them that I'd never been able to put into words, but always had as this niggling "bleh" feeling. (Well except for I HAET SAND because that's pretty damn easy to put into words.)
As for Episode III in particular, I don't think I've sat through it as a whole since seeing it in theaters, but I do know I left the theater feeling okay-ish about it...and then as the days and weeks progressed I realized more and more that it was crap.
All of this!
Also, my friends and I have a thing to this day where if anybody says they hate anything, one of us will simply say, "I hate sand." And if there's enough of an opening, "It's hot, and course, and it gets everywhere." And if the opportunity is there, and the person in question is close enough and resilient enough emotionally, gently stroke his/her upper arm and say, "not like here. Here everything is soft."
We don't frequently do that last bit.
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Also, my friends and I have a thing to this day where if anybody says they hate anything, one of us will simply say, "I hate sand." And if there's enough of an opening, "It's hot, and course, and it gets everywhere." And if the opportunity is there, and the person in question is close enough and resilient enough emotionally, gently stroke his/her upper arm and say, "not like here. Here everything is soft."
We don't frequently do that last bit.
I can think of a few friends I have who would gladly join me plagiarizing that.
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Someone get me the pikes... yeah those ones will do.
Get your stake out then, because I don't think Episode 3 (well, aside from it's terrible title) was really all that bad compared to the other Star Wars movies. 1 and 2 were abysmal... let's get that out of the way. But 4 and 5 retain a lot of their credibility from the goodwill they garnered on release, not necessarily how they stand up today. The dialog... oh god, the dialog... Honestly, TESB, widely hailed as the best of the Star wars movies (to date) has absolutely ATROCIOUS dialog writing. So bad that it is visibly painful to some of the actors speaking those lines. Lucas had a neat idea with the universe, but his character writing is plainly awful. TESB stands on its plot - generally - and the performances of some of its strongest actors. Even then, it is not a great movie by the sum of its elements, but rather in spite of them. Star Wars' success had a great deal more to do with spectacle than anything else.
There's a lot of oddity about these comments, like they are from another galaxy or some such (badum....). First off, Lucas is indeed a terrible dialog writer, as we can attest in the prequels pretty good, but fortunately for us, all of his dialogues for 4, 5 and 6 were rewritten by actual competent people who went on to write really slick and great dialogues. ESB has by far the most quoted lines of dialogue in any sci fi flick and that's not because da lazors were cool. No, it's because the dialogues are so ****ing good. So good in fact that your commentary was almost like a Lacanian event by itself. The problem is perhaps that you are trying to contextualize SW within some absolute line of "Good-Bad" dialogue, from Shakespeare to Lucas for instance, but that's the wrong approach. SW dialogues are in line with stuff like Indiana Jones or Guardians of the Galaxy.
And to say ESB has ATROCIOUS dialog writing. Omg. Should I really quote here the non ending list of amazing lines said in that movie alone? The 't was the last time you failed me Admiral scene, the Nerf herder scene, all the Yoda lines that almost made me like the character? The Apologies accepted captain Needa? All the dialogue was so slick and efficient. There are issues with the movie (sometimes, it feels like a Buck Rogers movie), but overall? Come on. Even the first one has that one of the great all time one liners Your lack of faith disturbs me...
No, this is just another example of your incredible bad taste in these movies! Sorry! :D
While I'm at it, allow me to commit another sci-fi heresy, because yes, TWOK, widely hailed as the best Star Trek movie, is only the best by virtue of the fact that the others are generally so bad. It is a vastly overrated film among its legions of sci-fi fans, by way of nostalgia, attachment to the characters, and the fact that it is the ONLY example of the Star Trek universe having a irreversible character development (*gasp* characters that grow? NEVAR!) result for one of its primary characters (which they then reversed for Search for Spock anyway; and no, Data in Nemesis doesn't count either because they did the same ****ing thing with B4).
I won't drag this into another TWOK conversation, but the irony is clear though when you present the character arc in TWOK as being Spock's, when it's Kirk's. Spock's sacrifice serves Kirk's character arc, not the other way around. Just another piece of evidence that you really need to work a lot more on your sensitivities before you start badmouthing works of art! Let's also not forget that the most popular ST in those days was the Wales one, and it was so precisely because of the more Indiana Jones like lighthearted tone and dialogue writing. Comedy is so underrated in these conversations is not funny. You should all read this: http://badassdigest.com/2014/08/12/film-crit-hulk-smash-guardians-of-the-galaxy-and-the-art-of-constructing-jo/
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Calling a character dying 'character development' is frankly an abuse of the term.
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Would you say that was... arrested development? :D
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@Luis
I'll see your pike and raise you a longbow. #MedievalPokerReference
Bah, TESB's dialog is only good in comparison to other Star Wars films. I submit to you: every interaction between Leia and Solo in the entire film. They are only marginally better than the whiny schtick between Padme and Anakin in the second film, and even then by the slimmest of hairs. And then there's Yoda. Yoda's speech pattern is fine - it's actually one of the few well-done things about the character. Other than that, for a millenia-old Jedi master Yoda's behaviour is remarkably similar to a 3-year old toddler. I can make this connection because I have one. Cute and endearing, yes - well-written, **** no.
The difference between Star Wars and Indiana Jones is that Indiana Jones' campyness is humorous and endearing, using irony and the trials of the hero as a point of quasi-humour throughout. SW... not so much. I also submit that TESB did not receive good ratings when it was released - on its own, its a mediocre film at best. It's only received it's high status rating because of the other films (notably 4 and 6, at first) in the series. It's greatness is a matter of relativity to the other films. On its own, it's very meh.
Two things about character development, Star Trek, and TWOK:
1. Kirk undergoes zero character development from The Motion Picture to Generations. None. Zilch. Nada. This is true of most characters in the Star Trek universe, with Data being a possible exception in The Next Generation series. That is why I refer to Spock's death as his character development, because its actual impact on Kirk is ****-all. Oh hooray, he's broken up about it for 10 minutes of screen time in TWOK (if that) and 15-20 of Search for Spock (if that), but then he's right back to his old self.
2. Calling a character dying as character development is perfectly acceptable in a universe where there are no long-term consequences between characters from one episode to the next. It's about the only character development we get. This is not to say I didn't love The Next Generation (in particular), but one of the reasons the reboots of Galactica and Dr. Who have been so refreshing, despite their flaws, is the fact that the characters actually develop. There are consequences.
I love science fiction TV and film, but I don't for a second pretend that the most popular variants of it are stand-out works of genius on the merits of their individual parts - which is why I don't get upset about notions like purity. Frankly, Abrams did a respectable job with the ST reboots, and if his work is comparable on the SW film then it will still be better than episodes 1-3 put together, and probably at least one of the original trilogy, though I have no doubt that nostalgia will prevent most fans from acknowledging that.
*aims bow*
By the way, Return of the Jedi has the best line of dialogue in the entire Star Wars universe.
*twang*
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I'm going to chime in with a disagreement there, Ryan. His appearance (the only part in which he acts like the 3-year old you described him as) demonstrates to Luke that power and strength is not a matter of looking or sounding impressive. He is presented as the total foil to Darth Vader. Where Vader is physically powerful and tall, Yoda is frail and small. Where Vader's voice is imposing and intimidating in and of itself, Yoda speaks softly and with curious patterns. Where Vader answers all questions and opposition with force, Yoda doesn't force Luke to do a single thing. That's not poor writing. :P
Empire Strikes Back is also notable for having the best dialogue where it matters most. Consider, briefly, the following quotes. Then consider the circumstances under which they are spoken.
"No! Try not! Do, or do not. There is no try." <- Immediately before the event that truly shows us the power of the Force. This serves as the preface for Luke's realization that Yoda is, in fact, a true Jedi Master. It's an important turning point in his attitude toward training.
"I don't believe it." "That is why you fail." <- Immediately following the same event. This cements Luke's respect for Yoda, and leads directly to both Luke's confrontation with Vader and his plea for help to Leia.
"I love you." "I know." <- My personal favorite line in the movie, because it's bar none the best single moment for Han's characterization. Cocksure, a little arrogant, but ultimately well-intentioned. The fact that it's ad libbed is notable, but I'm hardly going to hold that against the movie's dialogue.
"No, I am your father!" <- The climax of the movie, in one sentence. Dark, foreboding, powerful. My favorite is listed above, but this is probably the best line of the entire series in terms of gravitas per word spoken and the effects thereof.
Those are all off the top of my head, because they're some of the most quoted movie lines ever, and with some digging I could probably find a half dozen more. The difference between Han and Leia versus Anakin and Padme is that the former group is made up of two good characters, and the latter is made up of a decent character and a block of wood. Kidding aside, the former is the established anti-hero and the impassioned princess-who-has-no-business-being-anywhere-near-him slowly realizing their feelings for each other. The latter is a whiny, arrogant "hero" that we know will turn super evil eventually with an eight-year long crush on the first pretty girl he ever saw and the politician who didn't know better. The difference is vast, and covers more than just the dialogue.
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You know, sometimes you just have to sit back, grab the popcorn and enjoy a movie.
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You know, sometimes you just have to sit back, grab the popcorn and enjoy a movie.
That's rather my point - that nerd rage over the purity and greatness of the original films is pointless.
Scotty, for every moment of greatness it has, TESB has two that just really aren't. Doesn't make it a bad film. It remains the best of the SW universe. I'm simply saying that if you break it down, the entire franchise is not some masterpiece that deserves some level of reverence or that Abrams could truly screw up (unlike, say, a sequel to something like 2001: A Space Odyssey, to pick a film in the same-ish genre). I still maintain Yoda was unnecessarily child-like as a proto-Ewok. I understand the purpose, I maintain the executioncould have been better.
In general, Star Wars is an interesting and nostalgia-friendly franchise made up of mediocre to decent films, and it's going to be very difficult for Abrams to make a bad successor to the original series, never mind the new films (which were bad on a level only an original creator could manage).
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I suppose the difficult bit is differentiating between where 1-3 were 'not like Star Wars' and where they were 'just bad movies'.
To be honest, if you do it right, you can change all kind of canon in these movies, and the majority of people won't really care as long as you get the basic recipe of Ninja Space-Wizards, and really, who can blame them?
Episodes 4-6 knew why people watched the films and stuck to the formula that worked, the new movies weren't bad stories, as such, they were just really badly told.
For me, it wasn't that 4-6 were 'great' movie masterpieces, it's not that 1-3 were really bad Star Wars movies, it's that 1-3 were just bad movies, full stop. 4-6 weren't great movies, but they didn't stand out as bad ones either, I suppose that's the difference.
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The originals also had fantastic effects for their day that still hold up. The new ones are all CGI and you can really tell.
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I remember thinking that the big clone battle at the end of 2 looked more like something out of a video game even back when it was new. It probably looks godawful now.
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Part of the reason the originals are so fondly remembered is that, yes, in their day they had some incredible effects and tech in their making which does largely hold up over time, as Scotty said. They were groundbreaking in that sense, as a space epic with that kind of immersive visuals was a brand new concept.
Fastforward to Ep 1 when Lucas tried to carry the movie with visuals that were pretty but also to which audiences were accustomed, and no amount of effects were going to make up for his ****ty writing and design decisions.
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Well, in that respect, take a look at the original series of BSG, and you'll find yourself wondering how the show ever got so famous as to lead to a gritty reboot in the first place.
I was 5 when Star Wars came out, it was a different world, and people were less demanding when it came to content because the Film industry wasn't so deeply ingrained into the way of life, things like Videos and DVD's were unheard of, so the only way to see these films was to either go to the Cinema or wait several years for it to appear on TV.
That's the thing, I think, Films are far more of a consumable than they were when the original Star Wars came out, films are very taken for granted nowadays and that has led to a level of 'entitlement', for want of a better word, because people understand the media and what it can provide to a far greater degree.
Edit : It's like my fondness for Buck Rodgers or Airwolf, things that I pray they will not try to reboot, they were charming, but that doesn't mean good when held up to modern day requirements for something to watch.
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@Luis
I'll see your pike and raise you a longbow. #MedievalPokerReference
Bah, TESB's dialog is only good in comparison to other Star Wars films. I submit to you: every interaction between Leia and Solo in the entire film. They are only marginally better than the whiny schtick between Padme and Anakin in the second film, and even then by the slimmest of hairs.
...
I'm lost at words. For real. Wowzers. Ouch. Come on, really? I won't even try with you any longer, but the wider audience, any one of you are in line with this incredible bad taste?
I mean really? Yes, Han starts it all with the "don't get too mushy on me princess", and it sounds a tad off, but Leia handles it so well. Han keeps trying when they are with Luke, only to be scoffed at ("Nerf Herder"), but again gets it wrong. Jesus. And the scene where Han gets to almost kiss Leia in the Falcon only to be interrupted by Threepio, that's "marginally better than the whiny schtick between Padme and Anakin"? What really strong stuff have you been smoking man? Again, it's not "Shakespeare" material. Not even Casablanca material (from which it tries to copy from), but to compare it with the "Sand gets everywhere" material is baffling to me. No, that won't do. NOOOOO
And then there's Yoda. Yoda's speech pattern is fine - it's actually one of the few well-done things about the character. Other than that, for a millenia-old Jedi master Yoda's behaviour is remarkably similar to a 3-year old toddler. I can make this connection because I have one. Cute and endearing, yes - well-written, **** no.
Tell me why it's badly written (in ESB, not anywhere else). Yes, it has a childlike behavior, but that is a trope, not a fluke. The trope of old wise men behaving like children, because somehow they reacquired their innocence, through wisdom. That is, as you said, endearing, and that's the point. The point was that Luke was being too serious, too "adult". He should learn to be an "amazed child" again - another trope, the "Christmas Carols are only for children" movies abuse this **** to smithereens. This is not bad writing, especially when countered with the scary admonition that is also part of the character "You will be".
The difference between Star Wars and Indiana Jones is that Indiana Jones' campyness is humorous and endearing, using irony and the trials of the hero as a point of quasi-humour throughout. SW... not so much. I also submit that TESB did not receive good ratings when it was released - on its own, its a mediocre film at best. It's only received it's high status rating because of the other films (notably 4 and 6, at first) in the series. It's greatness is a matter of relativity to the other films. On its own, it's very meh.
So the **** what, critics are assholes, 2001 had terrible ratings when it came out too. It might not be the zenith of what mankind can achieve, on that ground we agree, but it's still one of the best sci fi flicks ever made.
Two things about character development, Star Trek, and TWOK:
1. Kirk undergoes zero character development from The Motion Picture to Generations.
What the **** does this have to do with Generations, a terrible movie anyway? If you don't see a character arc from the beggining of TWOK to the end of the Wales movie, then you get better glasses. Yes, most characters in Star Trek do not have any arcs, because that wasn't the way ST was designed. They were designed to be more or less static against whom "amazing things" would happen in space, time, etc. ST suffered from this because it came from sitcom material, designed per episode basis. We shouldn't blame ST for not being Babylon 5 or nuBSG. Those other shows rested on the shoulders of Star Trek, not the other way around.
Frankly, Abrams did a respectable job with the ST reboots, and if his work is comparable on the SW film then it will still be better than episodes 1-3 put together, and probably at least one of the original trilogy, though I have no doubt that nostalgia will prevent most fans from acknowledging that.
ST Into Darkness is a mess of a movie, but somewhat enjoyable. My adrenaline likes it, my brain hates it. And my brain wins me over everytime.
By the way, Return of the Jedi has the best line of dialogue in the entire Star Wars universe.
I know what you are referring to!
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Well, in that respect, take a look at the original series of BSG, and you'll find yourself wondering how the show ever got so famous as to lead to a gritty reboot in the first place.
BSG got a reboot because the guy who rebooted it worked on Star Trek Voyager before, and thought it did the whole "Stranded in unknown space" thing really badly, and so he took another popular franchise and ensured it did that well.
IIRC, off course.
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The best line in the series is "But I wanted to go to Tosche Station to pick up some power converters!"
What's Tosche Station? What are power converters?
It encapsulated the fantastic world of Star Wars without bringing attention to how different it is, as opposed to Star Trek, which rams anything we don't understand into your brain until you have a headache.
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I am not going to waste time and disk space further with line by line argumentation about bloody Star Wars and Star Trek. This way lies nerd rage arguments which.... Just no.
Suffice to say that while each series is groundbreaking and special in their own way, their individual parts generally are not. Thus, as he did a reasonable job on the Star Trek reboots - which I've quite enjoyed - I don't think Abrams can really screw anything up in SW 7 which the series' own creator hasn't done already. If he manages to make a film at least comparable to epiaode 3 it will fit nicely around the average of the series.
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You know, sometimes you just have to sit back, grab the popcorn and enjoy a movie.
This.
There is no bad taste. There is no good taste. There is only your taste. It is all subjective.
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I actually, did not really like episode 6, 1, or two. I liked 4, 5 and 3. Yeah, I liked 3. Not as good as 4 and 5 but I enjoyed it. Probably because I was a young kid when it came out. It was fun, and all I like about movies are if they're fun. For some reason I don't like Ewoks so they kinda ruined 6 for me
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Abrams Star Treks were fantastic for the most part. I have high hopes for his Star Wars.
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Episode 6 is filled with badness. The whole Tatooine stuff is not smart, the whole Ewoks stuff is maddeningly bad. The only redeemable things are, obviously, the Battle of Endor and the fight between Luke and his father.
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Not smart in what way? I thought it served as a way to illustrate the change in Luke's thinking. Where before he rushed in with no plan and no preparation, for the encounter at Jabba's Palace it's clear from the get-go that he's put significant thought into this. The fact that it doesn't go off without a hitch hints at his lingering inexperience, but the plan succeeds where shooting up the joint starting at the front door wouldn't have gotten far at all. I can understand not liking it (especially if you watch the 'remastered' versions with the awful singing :ick:), but calling it bad is simply wrong.
The Ewoks I don't particularly like and would rather they have been Wookies like my vague memory recalls about the original script. Instead, we got "kid friendly". If you just pretend that they're Wookies instead, the whole thing is much better. The non-Ewok parts of Endor are pretty cool, too. The cinematography to shoot the speeder bike chase was imaginative and the scenery itself is used in typical Star Wars fashion - that is to say, the environment is not neglected as backdrop and is instead a thing for the characters to interact with, coming with its own struggles and conflict. Go watch one of the Indiana Jones movies, for an example that's still closely related, and the desert in Raiders of the Lost Ark is important only because it's Egypt and therefore must be desert. The jungle temple in the intro is in a jungle only because hidden temples are found in the jungle. Tatooine is a barren wasteland, and A New Hope is able to convey the sense that there is nothing there except endless desert and harsh terrain (and none of that "I hate sand" obvious commentary). Hoth is a show of the total desperation the Alliance faces and in the early movie even emerges as an antagonist in its own right. Dagobah is a twisted, gnarled swamp that Luke must conquer in order to overcome his own twisted, gnarled impulses toward rage and hate and despair. Bespin is an impossible utopia, both in the sense that cities obviously can't float in the air, and that the utopia is a thin veneer over a bed of harsh industry and betrayal. Endor becomes an antagonist like Hoth with the speeder bike chase, and also demonstrates without the anvil dropping flavor of something like The Day After Tomorrow that nature fights back against human disruption and machinery.
And again, you can perfectly well not like something. I don't like the Ewoks, and I've never particularly liked Jabba's Palace (and even less the more successive releases come out), but calling them bad is something I'm prepared to discuss at length in the opposite direction. :P
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Not smart in what way? I thought it served as a way to illustrate the change in Luke's thinking. Where before he rushed in with no plan and no preparation, for the encounter at Jabba's Palace it's clear from the get-go that he's put significant thought into this. The fact that it doesn't go off without a hitch hints at his lingering inexperience, but the plan succeeds where shooting up the joint starting at the front door wouldn't have gotten far at all. I can understand not liking it (especially if you watch the 'remastered' versions with the awful singing :ick:), but calling it bad is simply wrong.
Perhaps it is and I'm being unfairly harsh! It just didn't age well in my experiences. Luke doesn't just seem inexperienced, he seems smug and condescending, and Han gets it right when he laughs at the idea of him being a Jedi warrior. What I mean by "not smart" I mean by saying that an important chunck of the rebel alliance leadership, or at least important elements within it, are thrown away in order to rescue a smart ass smuggler. First the droids, then rebel leader Leia herself, then Luke himself... I guess love is more important than fighting the empire...
But yes, I'm being harsh and it works as introductory material. Hey, 100 times this than the whole introduction of episode III which is just terrible.
If you just pretend that they're Wookies instead, the whole thing is much better.
Well yes, if I pretend it's a different movie, especially a better one, then it is a much better movie!
The cinematography to shoot the speeder bike chase was imaginative and the scenery itself is used in typical Star Wars fashion - that is to say, the environment is not neglected as backdrop and is instead a thing for the characters to interact with, coming with its own struggles and conflict. Go watch one of the Indiana Jones movies, for an example that's still closely related, and the desert in Raiders of the Lost Ark is important only because it's Egypt and therefore must be desert. The jungle temple in the intro is in a jungle only because hidden temples are found in the jungle. Tatooine is a barren wasteland, and A New Hope is able to convey the sense that there is nothing there except endless desert and harsh terrain (and none of that "I hate sand" obvious commentary). Hoth is a show of the total desperation the Alliance faces and in the early movie even emerges as an antagonist in its own right. Dagobah is a twisted, gnarled swamp that Luke must conquer in order to overcome his own twisted, gnarled impulses toward rage and hate and despair. Bespin is an impossible utopia, both in the sense that cities obviously can't float in the air, and that the utopia is a thin veneer over a bed of harsh industry and betrayal. Endor becomes an antagonist like Hoth with the speeder bike chase, and also demonstrates without the anvil dropping flavor of something like The Day After Tomorrow that nature fights back against human disruption and machinery.
QFT. I agree with all that!
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I do want to point out that Jabba's palace contains one of my favorite back-and-forth exchanges of the whole franchise, between Luke and Han:
"Together again, huh?"
"Wouldn't miss it!"
"How are we doing?"
"The same as always."
"That bad, huh?"
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Hey, 100 times this than the whole introduction of episode III which is just terrible.
Which part of that intro was terrible? Cause the battle itself was pretty freakin awesome if you ask me.
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It looked pretty. And...? In this day and age looking pretty is mandatory, not impressive.
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Hey, 100 times this than the whole introduction of episode III which is just terrible.
Which part of that intro was terrible? Cause the battle itself was pretty freakin awesome if you ask me.
No it wasn't, it was just piles and piles and piles of garbage thrown at the screen to impress you. The whole story of the intro is also amazingly silly and full of contrivances. There's no tension whatsoever, even. Jabba's intro was at least tense and filled with possible bad outcomes.
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Yeah I agree with Luis, ROTS space battle really epitomizes a general trend I see in a lot of modern cinema space battles. Instead of really putting together an engaging sequence its just an excuse to pile in as much CGI crap on the screen as possible.
ANH's space battle by contrast was a very limited affair in terms of assets on screen, but it maintained coherence and tension throughout. You knew what was going on, you had at least some introduction to most of the characters and their was enough time spent to let the whole thing breathe. The battle was treated as an important part of the story and a major set piece. ROTS was a soulless empty headed visual on the way to more talking and walking sequences.
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I know defending the new trilogy (or should we call it the middle trilogy from now on?) from criticism is a battle lost at the very beginning, but...
A) All is fine and dandy until those buzzdroids start dismantling the Jedi starfighters piloted by Obi-Wan and Anakin. Think about it. You're a Jedi. The Force flows through your whatevers. So when hostile little droids land on your ship and start dismantling it panel by panel, how the **** do you manage to try every trick in the book to try and shake the buggers off except for using the Force to pluck or push them off?
That's not a characteristic of Revenge of the Sith, as many times in Star Wars characters who could control the Force apparently had some sort of temporary amnesia. The Force didn't warn Darth Vader about Solo's dive attack on him and the other two TIE fighters. The Force didn't warn Luke when he was about to crash land in Dagobah. The Force didn't help Luke during the battle of Hoth, either. There are many examples like these in the old trilogy...
B) There's this moderately large space battle going on over Coruscant - perhaps the most important planet of the entire galaxy - with ships blowing up all over the place. The sides seem fairly evenly matched in terms of ships and firepower. So where'd the battle go once Obi-Wan and Anakin crash-land the ship Palpatine was on? If both sides retreated, why? Did they just keep on slugging it out beyond the cameras? WHAT HAPPENED??!?
I thought it was pretty clear from the beginning that the battle over Coruscant was nothing but a diversion to make Palpatine's kidnapping possible. I guess that once the Jedi knights rescued the chancellor and killed Dooku, there was no reason for the bulk of the Separatist fleet to stay where the Republic could assault it en masse.
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Yes there was a lot of assumptions, and suddenly the whole battle disappeared from sight and memory. Didn't matter anymore, what mattered was that Anakin was able to land a pre Star Destroyer into Coruscant without destroying too many towers and killing too many unseen people. Then empty CGI hallways followed with smug Jedis walking through...god I hate that movie.
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I know defending the new trilogy (or should we call it the middle trilogy from now on?) from criticism is a battle lost at the very beginning, but...
A) All is fine and dandy until those buzzdroids start dismantling the Jedi starfighters piloted by Obi-Wan and Anakin. Think about it. You're a Jedi. The Force flows through your whatevers. So when hostile little droids land on your ship and start dismantling it panel by panel, how the **** do you manage to try every trick in the book to try and shake the buggers off except for using the Force to pluck or push them off?
That's not a characteristic of Revenge of the Sith, as many times in Star Wars characters who could control the Force apparently had some sort of temporary amnesia. The Force didn't warn Darth Vader about Solo's dive attack on him and the other two TIE fighters. The Force didn't warn Luke when he was about to crash land in Dagobah. The Force didn't help Luke during the battle of Hoth, either. There are many examples like these in the old trilogy...
B) There's this moderately large space battle going on over Coruscant - perhaps the most important planet of the entire galaxy - with ships blowing up all over the place. The sides seem fairly evenly matched in terms of ships and firepower. So where'd the battle go once Obi-Wan and Anakin crash-land the ship Palpatine was on? If both sides retreated, why? Did they just keep on slugging it out beyond the cameras? WHAT HAPPENED??!?
I thought it was pretty clear from the beginning that the battle over Coruscant was nothing but a diversion to make Palpatine's kidnapping possible. I guess that once the Jedi knights rescued the chancellor and killed Dooku, there was no reason for the bulk of the Separatist fleet to stay where the Republic could assault it en masse.
You're making a significant and wrong equivalence here. There is a substantial difference between not sensing through the Force an imminent threat, and resorting to literally scraping a collection of angry droids off Obi-wan's fighter with a series of only nominally controlled collisions when simply giving the buggers a rough shove with the Force would have solved the whole problem. One is pretty believable, the other is a plot contrivance to drive up dramatic tension by forcing (hah) the main characters to forget literally the object of their life's dedication for a few minutes.
Additionally, the fact that there was no reason for the fleet to remain should have been suspicious in and of itself, and we don't get a single hint of it one way or the other. For all intents and purposes, once the cruiser hits atmosphere, everyone just sorta leaves off-camera. The battle is never mentioned again. This is despite the fact that the entire reason it hits atmosphere in the first place is that its being shot to pieces by a Republic cruiser. All of it is just dropped and never spoken of again. That's just bad writing.
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I seem to remember someone describing how the battle with General Grevious is similarly flawed cause it should have gone like this.
*Grevious talks*
*Grevious pulls out lightsabres*
*Obi-wan force pushes Grevious off the platform to his death*
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What Would Indy Do?
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That's not a characteristic of Revenge of the Sith, as many times in Star Wars characters who could control the Force apparently had some sort of temporary amnesia. The Force didn't warn Darth Vader about Solo's dive attack on him and the other two TIE fighters. The Force didn't warn Luke when he was about to crash land in Dagobah. The Force didn't help Luke during the battle of Hoth, either. There are many examples like these in the old trilogy...
The only valid one of those is Vader missing Solo's dive attack, although one could make a case that Vader was focusing all his concentration on his own target.
When Luke crashed on Dagobah, he was at best a novice at using the Force. Ditto for Hoth.
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To be honest, everytime I watch the prequels, I can hear Mel Brooks voice in the background shouting 'Moichendizing! Moichendizing!!!'
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The prequels did well over 2 billion dollars in theatrical gross, but that's chump change compared to what I would pay to unsee them.
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Every single dollar The Phantom Menace made was in the expectation that it would be as good as the original trilogy.
Every single dollar The Clone Wars made was in the hope that after all the negative feedback about Ep. I, they must have done a better job on Ep. II.
Every single dollar Revenge of the Sith made was from fan resignation, wanting to get the horror over with already.
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That's not a characteristic of Revenge of the Sith, as many times in Star Wars characters who could control the Force apparently had some sort of temporary amnesia. The Force didn't warn Darth Vader about Solo's dive attack on him and the other two TIE fighters. The Force didn't warn Luke when he was about to crash land in Dagobah. The Force didn't help Luke during the battle of Hoth, either. There are many examples like these in the old trilogy...
The only valid one of those is Vader missing Solo's dive attack, although one could make a case that Vader was focusing all his concentration on his own target.
When Luke crashed on Dagobah, he was at best a novice at using the Force. Ditto for Hoth.
That and he didn't take a hit from the Falcon, the TIE pilot on the right had a flipping panic attack and side swiped him.
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Well, since a powerful Dark-Side user can have negative impacts on Jedi skills just by his presence, maybe the opposite is also true, also, considering Obi-Wan was 'with' Luke at that stage of the battle, maybe it required all of Vaders concentration to focus on his X-Wing, as he said, 'The Force is strong with this one....'
As for the crashes, I think that if you look at how Yoda trained Luke, it was as much about getting him to have faith in his abilities as using them, possibly, with things going so badly with the Rebellion at that stage, Luke was having doubts, which reflected themselves as failings.
Of course, it could also have been because it was in the script, never underestimate the Power of the Script ;)
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I have a number of problems with Episode III, but here are two of the biggest that I haven't seen mentioned yet:
I just don't see how a 20+ minute lightsaber fight (Ani and Obi) can be considered anything but tiring and boring.
Padme dying because "she has nothing to live for" (at least accoridng to the medical droid) when she just gave birth to twins.
IMHO, Episode III is a bad movie and it's a really bad Star Wars movie.
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I just don't see how a 20+ minute lightsaber fight (Ani and Obi) can be considered anything but tiring and boring.
Lightsaber fight sequences were some of the best parts of the new trilogy.
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I'm going to disagree with that to be honest, they mostly consisted of two people bashing their swords together, even to the point where you can see them waiting for the next move in the 'list'. In fact, when Obi-Wan and Anakin are fighting, they both look bored more than anything else.
In the case of Dooku, it looked like someone had just said 'wave the thing around and we'll add Yoda later' (which ended up with him looking like a demented green beach-ball), and as for the Palpatine vs the Jedi scene, well the opening to that was downright embarrassing to watch.
The Darth Maul fights were impressive, but still more like a dance than a battle.
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Yeah, the prequel lightsaber fights aren't very good. Since they're lightsabers, realism is out the window immediately (because a realistic one wouldn't be very interesting at all) so I'm not complaining about that as such, but I feel the fights have pretty much no weight behind them at all. There's lots of pointless jumping around and twirling the swords around so fast that no strike is given the time to actually feel like a strike, it's simply too fast and feels like little more than a contest of who one can put out more swings per minute.
The ESB and RotJ fights are much better in that regard, even though they have tons of really plain choreographical mistakes (in the sense of "why is he not trying to hit him" etc). Obi-Wan vs Vader in ANH is arguably pretty awful, but it's still better than in jumping all over the place and spinning the saber like you're trying to take off with it.
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Lightsabre fights are completely stupid anyway. You have a weapon with a blade that has no weight and which will maim or kill upon any hit. Lightsabre fights shouldn't look like knights hacking away with broadswords, they should look like a fencing duel.
Padme dying because "she has nothing to live for" (at least accoridng to the medical droid) when she just gave birth to twins.
I'm reminded of the line from Robot Chicken - "She's lost the will to live? What is your degree in? Poetry? You sorry bunch of hippies! For godsake, don't use the billions of dollars of medical equipment around us."
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Lightsabers and The Force are some of the most completely arbitrary things in the whole SW universe anyway, and their use has always been more about good appearances than good mechanics. This is especially true of the games it spawned, even my much loved KOTOR and KOTOR2.
The problem is that Lucas combined the ability to perform magic with a weapon wielded by these people that, as kara said, results in instant maiming or death upon a strike. Regardless of skill level match, these fights should be settled incredibly quickly because the slightest mistake should result in an immediately-decisive end. I don't think even fencing is an appropriate analogy - a much better one is a gunfight. Two gunslingers meet at high noon - whoever gets hit first loses.
That, unfortunately, does not make for good viewing. Instead, we get utter stupidity like the Grievous battle, etc. The original Trilogy's lightsaber battles make much more sense, in that (except for the odd spinning flourish) they tend to be much more cautious, with each participant being on the defensive to ensure they don't get struck during the fight.
While we're talking about the utter idiocy of Padme's death, recall that in the original series, Leia says she remembers parts of her mother. O RLY? Because Episode 3 makes that spectacularly unlikely.
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Lightsaber fight sequences were some of the best parts of the new trilogy.
Wow, really? Well, I guess that's not saying much.
While we're talking about the utter idiocy of Padme's death, recall that in the original series, Leia says she remembers parts of her mother. O RLY? Because Episode 3 makes that spectacularly unlikely.
Yeah, I always wondered about this. Did Lucas write himself into a corner with that line and have to retcon it?
Or when Leia is talking with Luke about her mom saying she remembers "just images really; she was very beautiful but... sad", perhaps her memories/images come from the Force?
Or maybe she's not talking about Padme at all, but rather Momma Organa (whoever that may be)?
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Perhaps "images" as in, actual pictures of her? While I'm sure they wouldn't be keeping a whole lot of them around (given everything, Vader probably really wouldn't like this...), it doesn't seem unlikely that Leia was shown, at some point of her life, a hologram or a picture of her mother. Unlike the Lars family, Organas were senators, like Padme, so they'd likely have some images of her around.
I'm reminded of the line from Robot Chicken - "She's lost the will to live? What is your degree in? Poetry? You sorry bunch of hippies! For godsake, don't use the billions of dollars of medical equipment around us."
The official line is that the medical droid wasn't actually of a very good make (nor particularly versed in humans), and the medical equipment wasn't "billions of dollars", it just looked like that to us, but was, in truth, pretty shoddy. Polis Massa was supposed to be an SW equivalent of a small village hospital. Doesn't make it any less stupid, considering the tech level in SW, even a back alley doctor should've managed to save her just fine.
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Obi-Wan vs Vader in ANH is arguably pretty awful, but it's still better than in jumping all over the place and spinning the saber like you're trying to take off with it.
To be fair, they were both old farts at that point. It was a minor miracle that Obi-wan could still get it up. :D
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Obi-Wan vs Vader in ANH is arguably pretty awful, but it's still better than in jumping all over the place and spinning the saber like you're trying to take off with it.
To be fair, they were both old farts at that point. It was a minor miracle that Obi-wan could still get it up. :D
I feel like there's a SpaceBalls joke just waiting to happen here...
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The original trilogy based much of its sword play on Kendo. If you watch high tier hachi-dan level bouts it looks quite a bit like the lightsaber duels in originals. The young fellas typically are super aggressive profligate with their strikes, but two masters tend to have a lot of tension and economy of movement as they pick the moment for a decisive strike. The thing about sword play is that what you may lose in raw athletic ability is more than compensated by pattern recognition. High level Kendo players, despite being 30-40 years older than guys in their 20s will smoke younger kendoka.
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man this is even sillier than top-level western fencing
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Those two are lightning-fast, but I have to admit its anti-climatic/hilarious the way they stand there trembling menacingly at each other. Note: I didn't realize a tremble could be menacing until seeing this :p
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The official line is that the medical droid wasn't actually of a very good make (nor particularly versed in humans), and the medical equipment wasn't "billions of dollars", it just looked like that to us, but was, in truth, pretty shoddy.
And that sums up pretty much every reason why I've stayed the **** away from almost the entirety of the extended universe. ****ty writing to try and explain ****ty writing.
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Even if that were the case, who would program a medical droid to, rather than say 'I'm sorry Sirs, but I lack the required knowledge to deal with this condition' to instead run some kind of 'poetic bull****' subroutine?
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Even if that were the case, who would program a medical droid to, rather than say 'I'm sorry Sirs, but I lack the required knowledge to deal with this condition' to instead run some kind of 'poetic bull****' subroutine?
Devs be trolling in the try-catch block.
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Devs be trolling in the try-catch block.
OK thanks, I think that made my day :D
(Dev humor is awesome)
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I submit to the court my own review on GoodReads of the novelization of Star Wars Episode One - The Phantom Menace:
(https://d.gr-assets.com/books/1387710794m/819058.jpg) (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/819058.Star_Wars_Episode_I_The_Phantom_Menace)Star Wars, Episode I - The Phantom Menace (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/819058.Star_Wars_Episode_I_The_Phantom_Menace) by Terry Brooks (https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/9629.Terry_Brooks)
My rating: 1 of 5 stars (https://www.goodreads.com/review/show/113866938)
There's an interesting re-edit of Star Wars Episode 1: The Phantom Menace out there, called The Phantom Edit. It's one person's edit of the original movie, with as much of the moronic Jar-Jar, annoying Anakin, and redundant storyline removed as possible. It's an improvement, though the movie still falls far short of the original trilogy.
Unfortunately, this book goes in the opposite direction. The author expounds on both the Jar-Jar and the Anakin idiocy, often taking it to extremes (for example, when Anakin first meets Padme in Watto's shop, the conversation in the book ends with Anakin stating that he is going to marry Padme...). The additional plot explanations are welcome, but those mainly manage to expose the absurdity of the storyline to the reader.
This is not how to treat Star Wars. This is Star Wars for 7-year-olds. For excellent examples of how to treat Star Wars in book form, see virtually anything by Timothy Zahn (http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/12479.Timothy_Zahn).
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The original trilogy based much of its sword play on Kendo. If you watch high tier hachi-dan level bouts it looks quite a bit like the lightsaber duels in originals. The young fellas typically are super aggressive profligate with their strikes, but two masters tend to have a lot of tension and economy of movement as they pick the moment for a decisive strike. The thing about sword play is that what you may lose in raw athletic ability is more than compensated by pattern recognition. High level Kendo players, despite being 30-40 years older than guys in their 20s will smoke younger kendoka.
Needs more German longsword...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ln94E9AGYTc
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You would have to make sure to drop any quillon dependent techniques if appling Kunst des Fechtens to a lightsaber, plus half sword is just plain out for obvious reasons :D
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Well, that is very ture. :P
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A moment of silence for all the traumatized people that ended up reading that book. No human being should be exposed to such.
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As far as I'm concerned, Ep. I is a children movie, so the book might be appropriate. I actually used to like it a lot when I was little. I couldn't appreciate the OT as a 7-10 years old, but I found Jar-Jar funny and young Anakin was my favorite character (mostly by virtue of being my age and piloting space fighters. Childhood fantasy right here). :) When I think of it like that, it's actually passable. Come to think of it, if it was marketed for children from the start, it could've been much better received.
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I actually liked the lightsaber sequences in III because it reminded me of Hong Kong action choreography. I mean, we can all agree that lightsabers are stupid to begin with, but I can suspend my disbelief for flashy wuxia tricks.
II's duel between Anakin and Dooku was the stupidest thing I've ever seen. I've seen better action in B movies!
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Lightsabers are an interesting conversation, at least potentially so. In this case, they really are much more useful as a figurative or symbolic technology in the story, rather than a de-facto part of it. Unfortunately, the prequils only use them as the latter, rather than as some sort of esoteric or symbolic reference to a past age of values, or some other jive like so. Of course you don't think of it this way when you see it, but it's something which gives the story a depth you can percieve at an unconcious level... and the prequils have little or none of that.
In fact, it might be better in general to think of things like that when writing fiction. There's only so much of a universe you can concieve or write, and so its extents are limited by you and your own understanding. And because it's likely you want to tell another story while telling a story on the surface, you have to imbue elements of the story with values which resonate with the viewer/reader based on things which we already understand from culture OR values we can demonstrate in the work itself. In short, make the most out of a story.
...The prequils did not do that as a rule: they sold a story rather than telling it. To people who watch anime in here, you probably see that a lot. And just in the case of many cartoons I've killed time with, the cheap plastic on the surface used to get the sale just doesn't hold up to hard use and/or scrutiny in the case of the prequils. And what might have been there was ruined by terrible production and design descisions.
To bring this nerd rant to an end, yes, the original trilogy was cheesy and campy in many, many instances. BUT, it had substance underneath that about everybody could resonate with, even if that substance was not anything life-changing or even profound. If the new series can do that besides (or better, over) the obvious want for the fake plastic (and likely pixulated) exterior, it might be good. But I don't think Hollywood likes depth in the majority of cases. Especially if explosions are involved.
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Unfortunately, the prequils only use them as the latter
I'm going to assume that's a deliberate misspelling designed to remind us of Nyquil, as in it will make you sleepy. :p
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...Yes. Exactly.
:nervous:
You grammar nazi, you...
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Under a month to go until we start the one year countdown!
:nervous:
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^ So, we're doing a countdown for the countdown then?
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Yo, dawg, I've heard you like countdowns... :)
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what about teaser trailers in select theaters thousands of miles far away from your own small galaxy?
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B3Oh-nhCIAAyW8z.jpg)
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And the teaser is out.
Some good things (space battle, Tatooine desolation, Star Wars confirmed to have more than one black guy), some things I'm really hoping are just tricks of the trailer (shiny black sith stormtrooper, weird camera motion during space battle [that part might look better in 3D, I dunno]). Overall remain optimistic.
EDIT: Why can't I get yt tags to work? D:
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EDIT: Why can't I get yt tags to work? D:
I totally understand it's like rocket science n ****.
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Umm... but that's fake, right?
EDIT: Following Scotty's post, I was expecting it to be real, and until I had watched the whole thing realized that it can't possibly be. I still had to think about it for a while to shake off my shock, so I guess whoever did that did a pretty good job.
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Of course it's not it's TOTES official, i mean just look at the logo it's Dysney so it's totes true!!
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That can't be original from J.J. Abrams, that needs moa Lense Flaaaaaares
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Apparently this is the real one:
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ahahahah that lightsaber gets me everytime I watch this. I can't stop laughing!!
(dat x-wing wooosh though... shivers!)
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The rolling Droid bothers me more than that saber... But these Spaceship Scenes are just... :jaw:
The girl... Mara Jade, or the daughter of her? (I know they took the EU out of canon ... but... who knows?)
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Those X Wings have some weedy looking wings.
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This pic is so full of win. And full of Valerian too. Ahh how I miss the Valerianesque Falcon.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B3i7pXUCIAAu-UA.jpg)
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Yeah looks like its the real deal. Not quite a fan of how the strike foils work on the new Xwing but that's a pretty minor gripe. I hope the new sabre type means a western style of sword fighting. Most cross guard technique involve using it as a blade trap, of course when your blade cuts through pretty much everything that emitter bit looks like it might get lopped off if you're not careful. Overall looks pretty cool for what we've been teased with.
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Well, that lightsaber design sure is unbelievably and incredibly stupid and bad-looking.
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actually it's about ergonomics in light-saber design
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(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B3imowwCMAE8-9_.jpg)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B3imowvCQAAKmtK.jpg)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B3imowxCIAA3iTJ.jpg)
a meme awakens
https://twitter.com/DustinMSandoval/status/538363376489865216
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Most cross guard technique involve using it as a blade trap, of course when your blade cuts through pretty much everything that emitter bit looks like it might get lopped off if you're not careful.
This is my only real problem with a cross-guard lightsaber as well; a cross-guard lightsaber sounds like an incredibly useful variant of the concept, but in most situations it seems like that emitter would just get sliced off and you're left with no protection whatsoever. It would be much more sensible if the cross-guard blades were generated closer to the handle, so there isn't a large enough gap for the opposing lightsaber to slip through.
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I always thought lightsabers basically stuck to each other so they couldn't slide perpendicularly along each others blades which would make a hilt totally useless but whatever it's visually stupid anyway. What really bothers me in this trailer is all the camera work that looks like it would be more at home in a Marvel comics movie.
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Make a light sabre chainsaw and I'm on board with the new stuff.
Also.......here's a random thought, say back in the day. Many years ago, if George o'lucas had the funds and production capabilty he had when he made the prequels. Would 4 5 and 6 be as bad as them?
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Depends on how you look at it. 4 5 and 6 are mainly the result of Lucas's lack of experience and therefore a willingness to let others give suggestions. This would have not changed depending on how much funds he had.
That being said, he would not have had many funds, as he was inexperienced.
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a meme awakens
Not ridiculous enough.
(http://a.pomf.se/rggoit.png)
THEEERE we go
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A New Hope was the only one Lucas directed in the originals, and it actually had a big budget for the time ($11 million). I think that outside of a few special effects shots that were unachievable due to technical limitations (stuff he redid in the special editions) he basically got the movie he wanted in terms of what money can buy.
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Like an alien musical number?
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All you haters and cynics: this trailer was awesome, the camera work was awesome, the special effects were amazing, teh x-wing swooning was heart-breakingly amazing, the falcon was spectacular. Anyone who disagrees with me is a curmudgeon whose emo views should be lambasted and then forgotten on the spot! I have spoken!
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What does valerianesque mean?
:confused:
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Comes from Valerian, a famous comic book from the 60s, one of the inspirations for Star Wars. I loved it when I was a kid. This was his ship:
(http://i.imgur.com/vHmNS7m.jpg)
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I get the skinning feeling I wont like it. Something about the CGI is rubbing me in all the wrong ways right now... I cant quite put my finger on it. It all feels so... false; the prequels had this, but not as much.
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Too much.....fidelity?
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Someone who goes out their way to say this trailer special effects are worse than the prequels... Jesus Christ.
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Like an alien musical number?
When did Lucas go back and add a musical number to A New Hope?
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Someone who goes out their way to say this trailer special effects are worse than the prequels... Jesus Christ.
I'm not slamming any of the new, or bold, or newold effects.
Like an alien musical number?
When did Lucas go back and add a musical number to A New Hope?
ROTOJ.
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Dat Falcon...
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The keening cry of Incom engines...
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Someone who goes out their way to say this trailer special effects are worse than the prequels... Jesus Christ.
Of course not, but there's definitely something a bit jarring about seeing the classic ships with such modern camerawork.
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Yeah, jarring is a good word. Everything looks familiar, yet subtly wrong somehow. I don't think that its going to impact my enjoyment of the movie at all, but so much about movie making has changed since Jedi, and my brain is struggling to reconcile those changed with the classic imagery on the screen.
It was less of an issue for Star Trek, fir example, because the look of everything was updated and significantly changed vs the sixties version. Same goes for the prequels - everything looked so different that I never really connected it in my mind to the SW of old the way this does.
It's not bad, our even unexpected, really. But it is a little... well, yeah, jarring.
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When did Lucas go back and add a musical number to A New Hope?
ROTOJ.
:wtf: Did you forget what post you were responding to?
A New Hope was the only one Lucas directed in the originals, and it actually had a big budget for the time ($11 million). I think that outside of a few special effects shots that were unachievable due to technical limitations (stuff he redid in the special editions) he basically got the movie he wanted in terms of what money can buy.
Like an alien musical number?
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God the RotJ special edition changes were so brutal.
YUB YUB 4EVA
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Luis, I'm talking about the entire 4 to 6 set.
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I'm for one perfectly content seeing the awesome effects and oh my god dat Falcon
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Not going to lie, that teaser made me unreasonably excited, stupid lightsaber crossguard and all.
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Maybe it's not a crossguard? Maybe it's for situations like this:
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-awxjKqSpcMU/T2HYaeWyC0I/AAAAAAAAAcg/A8Rjjk2CZz0/s1600/Picture1.png)
Where instead of disengaging and striking again, you just have to swivel a little and the other guy has a new hole in his face.
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Finally the sane brigade has arrived
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thing about those guards, rotate them 135 degrees and they lose all criticism.
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Looks like a good way to lose your forearms to me. Though, given how easily a forearm is replaced in the SW universe, maybe that's not such a big deal.
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If they had forward swept the quillons like you see often with the cross guard of medieval Irish claymore it would have eliminated the possibility of the emitters getting taken off, increased the range of motions for your lead hand, and created a perfect blade trap.
(http://www.albion-swords.com/images/swords/albion/nextGen/chieftain/chieftain-1.jpg)
Still if they really go all in for the Kunst des Fetchens with this new saber I'll not care about minor technical gripes. Plus the new X-Wing design is starting to grow on me, aside from the odd split wing it otherwise nails the original McQuarire concept.
I do love me some original McQuarrie X-Wing
(http://www.modelermagic.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/concept-x-wing-fighter-025-500x375.jpg)
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I want more outrider.
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There was a leak a while ago about how there would be a cross-guard saber... same source said the stormtrooper guy turned force sensitive after picking up Luke's lightsaber... :/
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The rolling Droid bothers me more than that saber
Yep, that thing worried the **** out of me. The rest of the trailer didn't convince me one way or the other. I'm still going to keep my mind open and not make any decisions about the film either way until I see it.
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Did no one think to apply the GEORGE LUCAS filter???
[edit]it's cool ya'all i figured out that "rocket science n ****" (youtube tags), sorry for messup
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I lol'd.
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ahahahaha
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Bwuahahah. Brilliant!
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Well, the FX were cool, but the trailer didn't really show me anything that really increased the (already positive) anticipation factor. There just wasn't anything particularly plot-revealing like there was in the Age of Ultron teaser, which I still haven't recovered from :P
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Well, the FX were cool, but the trailer didn't really show me anything that really increased the (already positive) anticipation factor. There just wasn't anything particularly plot-revealing like there was in the Age of Ultron teaser, which I still haven't recovered from :P
This is the point of a teaser. I'm honestly puzzled by this sentiment, since the opposite (the trailer revealed a whole bunch/everything) is even more undesirable. :P
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Needs more German longsword...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ln94E9AGYTc
If they had forward swept the quillons like you see often with the cross guard of medieval Irish claymore it would have eliminated the possibility of the emitters getting taken off, increased the range of motions for your lead hand, and created a perfect blade trap.
Still if they really go all in for the Kunst des Fetchens with this new saber I'll not care about minor technical gripes.
The Hell, man. I was never even serious when I mentioned German/European swordsmanship with relation to SW. What is the world coming to...
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Perhaps the side emitters are coated in cortosis. That would prevent them from getting cut off, as well as give the opponent a nasty lightsaber glitch to contend with.
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Perhaps someone has constructed a lightsaber without giving thought to practicality.
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Cortosis weave ftw.
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Didn't cortosis get thrown out with the rest of the EU? :P
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Perhaps someone has constructed a lightsaber without giving thought to practicality.
You're gonna regret this blasphemy when the force wakes up!
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Didn't cortosis get thrown out with the rest of the EU? :P
The EU didn't get thrown out, per se. Disney just effectively said that if they want to contradict it, they'll contradict it, and tough **** if you don't like it. They can still take things from it and use them if they want.
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It would be more likely to be made out of phrik (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Phrik).
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What the phrik?
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Well, the FX were cool, but the trailer didn't really show me anything that really increased the (already positive) anticipation factor. There just wasn't anything particularly plot-revealing like there was in the Age of Ultron teaser, which I still haven't recovered from :P
This is the point of a teaser. I'm honestly puzzled by this sentiment, since the opposite (the trailer revealed a whole bunch/everything) is even more undesirable. :P
The best way lies in the middle. :P
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It survived alderans destruction right?
So how did they
A- mine it.
B- craft it.
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The rolling Droid bothers me more than that saber
Yep, that thing worried the **** out of me. The rest of the trailer didn't convince me one way or the other. I'm still going to keep my mind open and not make any decisions about the film either way until I see it.
I was worried the **** out for the first 30 seconds. I still hope to see it, but until it was the Millennium Falcon appeared, I swore it was fake.
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It survived alderans destruction right?
So how did they
A- mine it.
B- craft it.
Reminder that the Dark Troopers Kyle mother-forcing Katarn fought were also made of it.
Its probably made from refrigerators
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It survived alderans destruction right?
So how did they
A- mine it.
B- craft it.
according to google it's an alloy/compound so maybe after mixing the ingredients it hardens?
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A change in "sword fighting" style (someone mentioned German/European swordsmanship) might actually be a welcome one, IMHO. If you're up to date on Star Wars: Rebels, the Inquisitor makes (berating) comments about Kanan's saber fighting style, and I think it would be interesting if the universe started to show variety in fighting styles, justifying things like sabers with hilt guards. I'm probably giving whoever thought up the saber in the trailer way too much credit, though.
I also didn't like the fast shakey cam of the first 15 seconds though. Reminded me of Cloverfield, which I want nothing of in my Star Wars. :shaking:
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Literally the only shakey cam in the entire trailer is in the very brief shot of the stormtroopers' weapons. You're making a mountain out of a molehill.
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Literally the only shakey cam in the entire trailer is in the very brief shot of the stormtroopers' weapons. You're making a mountain out of a molehill.
If you say so. I'm anticipating some more of it in the movie, though hopefully no lens flares. But whatever you say bro.
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In the plus side, I quite liked the more dynamic camera feel when following the Falcon, but maybe that's just me, it gave more of a feel of speed and weight to the shot.
That said, how bloody close does every flying thing need to get to everything else, be it each other or the ground? These are primarily Space-borne vessels that need to land from time to time. I know Star Wars ignores Physics, and that's fine, but it's a freighter, it might be a fast freighter, but fast != maneuverable. The scene is well shot, but the Falcon looks wrong doing it.
Also, for some reason the start reminds me of the ending of the Red Dwarf episode 'Backwards', so I laugh when I watch it...
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/me eats sandwich forwards and launches career in entertainment.
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In the plus side, I quite liked the more dynamic camera feel when following the Falcon, but maybe that's just me, it gave more of a feel of speed and weight to the shot.
That said, how bloody close does every flying thing need to get to everything else, be it each other or the ground? These are primarily Space-borne vessels that need to land from time to time. I know Star Wars ignores Physics, and that's fine, but it's a freighter, it might be a fast freighter, but fast != maneuverable. The scene is well shot, but the Falcon looks wrong doing it.
Also, for some reason the start reminds me of the ending of the Red Dwarf episode 'Backwards', so I laugh when I watch it...
Well, Lando took the Falcon on a tour through the Death Star; I'd say that maneuvering through a building site at speed does require a fair bit of maneuverability.
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Let alone all those maneuvers around asteroids in ESB... all those crazy maneuvers against SDs... now that I think of it this idea that the Falcon isn't "maneuverable" is absolute horse****.
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It may be a freighter, but it's a Corellian light freighter.
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But its no yt-2400..
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The Falcon will always be more classic than your N64 ride fond though those memories maybe :P
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The thing is, the Falcon's flight through the Death Star was pre-calculated, and they still managed to lose a scanner/defector thing, and to be honest, I did think it odd that the Falcon was leading the rebel fleet in ROTJ as well, it's kind of like a squadron of F16s being led by a very fast Chinook. All of a sudden the ship went from a small, fast smuggler ship that was designed to avoid 'Imperial Engagaments' to some kind of ninja freighter. Also, the asteroid field was against the odds, as C3PO famously stated.
It looks cool and it won't stop me watching the movies and enjoying them, but it is strange how the Falcon turned into a Jedi spaceship.
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That is another throwback to Valerian's "Empire of a thousand planets" where their falcon-like ship spearheads a huge fleet against the darth vaders of it. I tried to search the scanned image of it which is quite alike to Star Wars rendition of it, but couldn't.
Instead, I found this interesting picture. It's more right on the money than I remembered it:
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-nEANiAuEblU/UwZc9Zmn7uI/AAAAAAAAGtI/dTFSnsQyPhU/s1600/u.jpg)
Also, for fun:
(http://static.squarespace.com/static/4f209325d09a4f024c85b060/t/522d128ee4b0e1a3bc885b0f/1378685583960/val.jpg)
e: Found one of them:
(http://www.noosfere.org/mezieres/Images/quatriemes/val02.jpg)
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Just from a basic moviemaking standpoint you can't leave the #1 hero ship in the garage, that would completely visually depersonalize the climactic battle, where visuals are the most important thing to an even greater extent than normally. Plus then you would have to either put Lando in a fighter (which is clearly not the horse he is associated with) or rely on a guy who has had like 10 totally insignificant lines and 30 seconds of screen time to save the day.
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Oh yes, I fully understand why it was used, same as in this trailer, but there's still that part of me that finds the jump from 'Ship designed to run away' to ''Master of Ship-Fu' a little bit jarring.
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It's faced tie fighters before. It's avoided asteroids ties couldn't.
It's where jacen was conceived...
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Oh yes, I fully understand why it was used, same as in this trailer, but there's still that part of me that finds the jump from 'Ship designed to run away' to ''Master of Ship-Fu' a little bit jarring.
Or maybe...
...it's a Master of Ship-Fu *because* is was designed to run away
Think about it, running away takes more than just speed because sometimes, you can't just speed your way through things (like an asteroid field or a planet's surface). You've got to be nimble because sometimes your warp drive doesn't work and evasive maneuvers are all you've got left until it's fixed
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Then why make military vessels? After all, you have a ship right there that is every other vessel in the fleet rolled into one. It can dogfight like an X-Wing and has the shields and payload beyond that of a Y-Wing. You might need to bolt on some Proton launchers, but since most of the ship is cargo-space, that won't be a problem. They're big enough to perform the roles of shuttles or even small troop carriers, so if the Falcon could do everything it is depicted to do, a YT1300 would be pretty much the only small ship either the Military or the Bureaucracy would ever need.
And yes, I know Han and Chewie modified it, but if two hard-pressed smugglers can get the ship to that level, then it would be worth the effort of reverse engineering it.
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It's not all about the specs.
Who's got pilot skill?
(http://cdn-media.hollywood.com/images/l/StarWarsEmpireStrikesBack_620_020613.jpg)
This guy that's who.
Aside from ANH, which basically featured the first run of ILM's tech, the Falcon danced like a pro in two out of the three films. All those Eyeballs and Squints look like they got served to me.
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Thing about the Falcon...
It's like, all engine, man. And no cargo in just about any scenes we see it in. AND the engines are souped-up. It's basically got a massive power-to-weight ratio. It's still quite massive on account of being a freighter, but really, think of a C-17 performing at an airshow - lots of engine in a frame made to deal with pulling its own weight and several tons of other stuff. So when it's not laden with cargo... yeah.
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And yes, I know Han and Chewie modified it, but if two hard-pressed smugglers can get the ship to that level, then it would be worth the effort of reverse engineering it.
Actually, according to the EU, Lando did all the heavy modifications before Han ever got his hands on it, so the Falcon's capabilities are not the result of tinkering by "two hard-pressed smugglers".
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Why make military vessels? Cheaper, and if something is damaged there's plenty of others that could use the parts when you scuttle it, they didn't have Han Solo until later in the war, and the Falcon requires more pilots (This point here - Takes minimum of two to pilot it, but where's the guns? There are no gunners so now you have a crew of four to have the marginal amount of use out of it. If you want best results, you'll also need pilots who know their **** in it and some other folks to be logistical support. On the X-Wing and Y-Wing side, you can have at least four flying around for the same number of people. Numbers wise, it's not worth it to make a fleet of freighters as you'd need to modify them heavily as Solo did [cost increase] with parts that probably aren't easy to come by or replicate [making it difficult to replace]. It also does not have bombing capabilities stock, but you had already mentioned that with having to bolt on proton launchers which probably won't be nearly as reliable. In the end, you'd have to take a great deal of time and effort to make it, something the Rebels do not have the luxury of)
The fewer targets the Imperials have to shoot, the better they'll fare in space combat, and to lose one would deal a bigger blow to the Rebels than if some X-Wing got shot down
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Well, I think I'll sum up my feelings by saying there are plenty of cinematographic reasons why the Falcon should be flying like that (or, indeed, the TIE's) and that's fine and good and what makes these movies good movies. But I don't think I'll ever accept a decent tactical reason for having a commercial freighter that has the level of manouverability and speed both inside and outside the atmosphere, that it can go nose to nose with military hardware and take an active part in frontline battles. I don't know about 'that's no moon', but that's certainly no freighter.
I agree fully that the Falcon was made the protagonist for the second Death Star attack, and, like every other member of the group it emerged victorious, but with wounds. But this left the writers a problem with the Falcon because it was now a 'Persona ex Machina', a character rather than a backdrop. So what do you do with the ship that was designed to run if it becomes a hero? Well, you do this, Star Wars has so much reality removed that it isn't so jarring if you're in popcorn mode, but I don't think I'll ever find a justification for it in a 'real-world' manner that sits comfortably with me.
Not that this bothers me, after all, it is primarily entertainment not a documentary, so I'll just watch the pew-pew and eat my popcorn like everyone else ;)
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Ah fair enough
I presented my points, you yours, in the end meh!
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Why make military?
Because it breaks a status quo of everyone having equal footing.
Also. Is that demo falcon? Could it be corellian confederation?
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In my eyes, the Falcon is an absolute outlier. Yes, it's a cargo ship, but more like one of a kind at that, and then heavily modified with a hacker "modding" spirit, to make it the "fastest" piece of garbage in the galaxy. To make several of them and have them be the "fleet", it would be astronomically more expensive than spamming your factories with XWings and AWings.
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Yeah, it's a result of years of tinkering, modifications and tweaks. Most of them highly illegal, using technology that would be only available to Imperial fleet (where do you think the engines are from?). Remember, most of what makes up the Falcon was stolen from someone at least once. :) As such, it'd likely be impossible to replicate for the Rebels - if they had this sort of tech available in sufficient quantities, they'd be making actual military ships with much, much higher capabilities than Falcon. Not as fast or agile, but packing one heck of a punch. Also, the Falcon is a maintenance nightmare. Remember, it doesn't only have one of the best pilots in the galaxy, but also one of the best mechanics. Maintenance cost and time would be staggering if something like Falcon was to be made and operated like a regular military ship. It's a hangar queen as-is, and the only reason it works is that Han and Chewie don't care much for safety regulations. It would likely not be allowed to fly if it was ever actually inspected (not that our jolly smugglers ever let anyone do that).
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You also forget that, as a military vessel, it does not make sense to use on a large scale. I think that although the Alliance fleet makes strives at standardization and uniformity (for the sake of logistics and military operation/organization), they'll use anything they can get their hands on. Therefore, the Falcon is a useful asset, but not a likely expenditure as far as large-scale logistics are concerned. It's also huge - you could pack a few starfighters into the space it takes to house the Falcon. Therefore, it's a really bad idea to put lots of Corellian freighters-turned-gunboats into your flight decks. It's also a lot harder to maintain than any starfighter.
You also have physics and geometric concerns in combat. Size has already be covered as far as storage goes, but the Falcon is a huge target compared to an X-Wing, etc. Deflector shields (especially strong ones) are great, but if you're getting hit at all, there's a good chance you're doing it wrong. Size DOES matter... :p Keep in mind that the Falcon probably has a variety of jamming arrays on-board that make it hard to get and keep a lock on - this may explain why it does such a good job at evading enemy fire. To make a game reference, think of playing FS1 and encountering Shivans for the first time: if you're used to using the calculated aim-point and it's not there, you may have a very difficult time getting an accurate shot. Jammers most certainly should play a larger part in SW combat, but they seem to fall by the way-side in most subjects we think about. Regradless, how much better would a standard starfighter do against an enemy with a comparable jamming array as the Falcon?
Finishing with the physics issues (should you choose to consider them) from my last post, even if you have a huge power-to-weight ratio, you have other things to consider. The general force equation (F=MA) is generally only one-dimensional. The Falcon is high-mass, even when unloaded, compared to a starfighter. So, the force generated by the main engines (negating any reactions which affect the total mass of the ship) must be higher than the mass of the ship, especially for a spacecraft. If the ship's engine thrust and mass remain constant, you can therefore easily determine its maximum acceleration. However, this is only in one direction - change the directional vector, and you have a high amount of mass with little force to change the flightpath of the ship. This may also be proportionally true for starfighters, but they were built with that in mind, I feel, and therefore probably handle much better. Starfighters also have much lower rotational inertia values.
Thus, the reason the Falcon does well in combat is the same reason a P-40 or a Polish P.11c does well in combat against a superior adversary: tactics. Whoever is flying the ship is using what it does well to the maximum effect while avoiding puting it in situations that would outright kill the crew. Tactics can let poor equipment or unsuitable equipment overcome a better equipped enemy - isn't that the story of the Rebel Alliance in a nutshell, anyway?
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You know, I do love Mickey Mouse as well, but will also struggle to accept any 'real life' reasons why he can talk because it's not really relevant to my enjoyment of the show. I'll even accept that Mithril Armor not only prevents puncture wounds, but also prevents rib-cages from shattering, these are sort of the tools that story-telling requires.
Not everything has to be justifiable from a real-life context to be fun, so people don't really need to go looking for ways that it could happen, that's sort of the point of fantasy movies. As I said, from a real life perspective, I find it hard to believe, but then these movies are all about suspension of belief. If everything that happened had to be explained and justified, it'd be a sci-fi movie, and Star Wars isn't sci-fi.
If you have a reason for it that works for you, that's absolutely fine, that's the point of Star Wars, you can space-magic up any reason you like for it and it'll work, if that increases your enjoyment of the movie then good luck to you, when I'm in the cinema watching it, I'll still enjoy it, but I don't really see a need to justify it.
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The problem I have with "realism" applied to Star Wars is because the Star Wars genre was initially an homage to many classic WW2 films, Westerns, and Akira Kurasawa. Not that I expect the audience to know this, but it allows me to understand the context that made the original trilogy the monstrosity as we know it today. XD
Realism has as much place in the original trilogy as sanity in Michael Jackson's Moonwalker, but the importance of thematic elements and characters at play are what hold the originally trilogy together, at least in my eyes.
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You forgot to mention the obvious Buck Rogers. Hell, even the famous scrolling text thing came out of BR.
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Erin Grey <3
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Erin Grey <3
Ahhhh happy mammaries...er.. memories... :nervous:
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Seems to me the Falcon is kinda like a commando; it can do pretty much everything a regular soldier (small ship) can do, but that's due to years of expensive training, lots of expensive equipment, and finding the right people. Regular militaries don't field battalions of commandos because of the cost:benefit ratio - it makes sense to have a few of them for special uses, but not hordes.
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...and the Jawas all bought a tropical paradise planet with the proceeds from salvaging an ISD and SSD. Assuming their little hearts didn't all explode with glee when they first found the wrecks.
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Better: WHAT THE FRAK HAPPEND? A entire fleet lay down in the sands....
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The empire was defeated, that's simple. The ruins are there to remind us of that. The new empire is probably a small offshot of it, commanded by what appears to be the new Hitler in town.
"Chewie we're home" Jesus Christ my heart melted.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwAIjnVnwUE
And... 15.11.15 - Battlefront!
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:eek2:
Color-inverted T.I.E. Fighters, as well as a special kind without the usual hexagonal cockpit window (the one in the hangar scene)...
The Falcon flying into the engines of a crashed SSD...
The new "crying" stormtrooper helmets (perhaps it helps them aim slightly better?)...
Vader's fire-melted helmet...
Luke's implication of a son or daughter...
Han and Chewie coming home...
All I know is, Epic Rap Battles of History is gonna have a blast with this. :nod:
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"Chewie we're home" Jesus Christ my heart melted.
Yes all of this.
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I will say, I got more of a Star-Wars 'vibe' from those tasters than I did from the trailers for the prequels, so I consider that a positive thing.
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"Chewie we're home" Jesus Christ my heart melted.
You sure you didn't mean brain? :eek2:
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Today's teaser is cool, better than the last one (still it doesn't reconcile me with J.J. Abrams)
What intrigues me most (for now) is not in the Teaser but was spoiled from photographs of the plaques from the showrooms: the new "empire guys" are called the "First Order" which immidiately gave me an association to cult-like speech patterns... let's see how that plays out...
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Sorry, can't help it, I'm hyped.
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Ditto. :yes:
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...and the Jawas all bought a tropical paradise planet with the proceeds from salvaging an ISD and SSD. Assuming their little hearts didn't all explode with glee when they first found the wrecks.
YAAAAAAA!
Comments:
1. Luke says, "The force is strong in my family... you have it too." Implying he's talking to a family member. In Revan's name, TELL ME Mara Jade is back!
2. Speaking of which, Kylo's mask looks like Revan.
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I wish Mara Jade was in this, but that can't be who he's referring to... He's implying biological familial ties to Force powers, not marital. Unless you meant whoever Luke was talking to was his offspring via relations with Jade?
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Pfft, guys, he's saying his biological family has strong Force powers, it does not necessarily mean he's talking to one of those members. Could be he's talking to someone else who has Force powers, letting them know of it. Perhaps. I initially automatically thought that the helmetless Storm Trooper had Force powers and that was who he was talking to, but I'm not sure how that could make sense.
I'm not sure his wording is right for talking to someone with close ties to him. He seems too... formal. Like it's a briefing, sort of. This is how I know what Force power is and this is it's history with my family, you have this as well.
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It could just be for the trailer?
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It's obviously his niece.
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Offspring of Ezra and Sabine? :drevil:
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Needs more female descended from shan bloodline.
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I wish Mara Jade was in this, but that can't be who he's referring to... He's implying biological familial ties to Force powers, not marital. Unless you meant whoever Luke was talking to was his offspring via relations with Jade?
Yeah, that's what I meant. Could be completely off the mark, that's just the 1st thing that came to mind.
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Obviously his sister and him got it on for the sake of the force duh. Ultra force powers activate!
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I think I'm stating the obvious here, but those lines are also lifted in their entirity from the scene with Luke and Leia in episode 6 in the tree tops just after the Ewoks join the rebels. The only difference is some of the original lines were deleted to make it seem more like a monolog. I'm not even sure if the lines were re-voiced or if they are from 30-some years ago.
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Did anyone consider that he was talking to one his nephews? Could be Jacen or Anakin.
@ perihelion, I think the lines have been revoiced for the film. From the interviews I've seen with Mark Hamill, he seems like a pretty easy going guy and I don't think it would have taken much to convince him to do the lines, plus I wouldn't be surprised to see an actual scene with him saying them either!
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They can't practically do Mara Jade in anything but cameo, since there'll be no room for any significant backstory. And then what's the point of that cameo when they're very explicitly rejecting the EU's version of post-Endor events anyway? Same goes for Jacen and Anakin; they're really just excess baggage for a new film.
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The EU isn't rejected outright as an automatic "not happening". They said they reserve the right to canonize any parts of the EU that they wanted to.
That said, I think it actually is old Luke speaking to his niece/nephew (via Leia + damn-well-better-be-Han) rather than a child of his own. He did the whole "the Force is strong in my family" speech when revealing to Leia that she's his sister, and thus has latent Force talent as well, so it's highly likely to be a grandchild of Anakin Skywalker one way or another.
Also, during that speech, when Luke mentions the Force being strong with his sister, the scene is of what looks to be a female hand giving a lightsaber to someone else - Leia to her child before dying, perhaps?
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Don't care much for the new look stormtroopers. Armour looks like its made of cardboard.
So you're saying they look like stormtrooper armour? ;)
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Didn't they have glossy armor in the first teaser trailer released a while back? I seem to remember the dropship scene with the stormtroopers lined up being all dramatically lit and shiny lensflarey...
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I'm intrigued by the expanded universe being rejected and a little bit confused about this as well.
I've read the Thrawn Trilogy, Jedi Academy Trilogy, Courtship of Princess Leia, New Rebellion, Truce at Bakura and the graphic novel "Dark Empire". I even read the childrens' novels was when I was 11 (can't remember what they were called though). In the foreword of Dark Empire, I believe it was Kevin Anderson who wrote that everything written for Star Wars had to be canon.
Also, no back story would really need to be written for Jacen, Jaina or Anakin. It already exists in the novels and if people really want it then they can go and read them. When Qui Gon first appeared in Phantom, there was no real back story for him as well as a host of other characters. They just rolled with the characters and went with it.
Drew Karparshyn wrote books based around the Mass Effect universe and the events in the book were mentioned in the game, but did not go into great detail. I think that if people read the Star Wars EU then there experience will be a lot richer when EpVII arrives. I know my experience of reading the books around Mass Effect greatly improved my experience when playing the games.
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It's just that there is sooooo much stuff in the Expanded Universe, much of it not great...
And it was always a policy that while the EU writers had to stick to canon, and what they wrote became canon, the films always had priority in canon-ness. The new films' rejection of the EU doesn't necessarily mean that they're calling it all null and void, just that the writers and director aren't going to read through every novel and comic to fit Ep VII into the canon from the books. And they shouldn't.
That said, I wouldn't be surprised if the characters in the movie were the same as the ones from the books. But I won't be disappointed if they aren't, either.
Think of it like the Star Trek reboot. The old stuff is still there, and still matters, it just doesn't affect the new stuff.
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Maybe you should take a look at this!!!
(http://www.starwars-union.de/bilder/news_2015/20150419_rogueonerebs.jpg)
and....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMgjkZLNTVg
HYPE!!!! I wait for this more then Episode 7! Rebels against Imperial Troopers - NO JEDI!!!!! YEA!!!!!!
Next year in Cinema : December 2016!
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Blocked by Disney stormtroopers.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_c2n9e3cYg
!!!
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I have no idea what I just saw or why people were screaming so loudly. All I saw was a jungle/mountains and what must have been a TIE fighter based on the sound. I didn't catch that one until the second time either.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_c2n9e3cYg
!!!
Blocked by Disney stormtroopers.
At least in the UK...
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Also in the US.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xw8YXEXo9T8
Next try - but in short words
Short before Episode IV Rebels try to steal the Plans for the Death Star. Military Style. No Jedi!
And in the Video before the People going wild - The Scene Shows a jungle world with a TIE Fighter flying to a moon.... TOOO BIG FOR A SPACESTATION! The first Death Star.
Maybe one of the soldier named Kyle Kartan? ;D
The Lego Star Wars Version :D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7p8aPxzbzJs
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That is promising indeed. A military heist kind of movie. Have Brad Pitt in it trying to infiltrate with his italian accent for double effectiveness!
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Many Bothans will die!
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Many Bothans will die!
If only Borsk Fey'lya could be one of them!
EDIT: Wait a sec, this is the NEW Star Wars canon - he CAN be one of them! :D
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that the Bothans didn't join the rebellion until atleast after the destruction of the first Death Star.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that the Bothans didn't join the rebellion until atleast after the destruction of the first Death Star.
If we go by the films alone, the only mention of Bothans is during a single line ("many Bothans died bringing us this information"). If you go by the EU, on the other hand, then they did indeed help the Rebel Alliance acquire top-secret codes for the first Death Star.
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The Ballad of Manny Boffins.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that the Bothans didn't join the rebellion until atleast after the destruction of the first Death Star.
Thing is, I had also thought of that line, but then I remembered Bothans only died in porsuit of the second death star's building location.
e: stupid me didn't even read Admiral's response. Well, I guess Bothans are very useful in getting these things!
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Many Bothans will die!
If only Borsk Fey'lya could be one of them!
EDIT: Wait a sec, this is the NEW Star Wars canon - he CAN be one of them! :D
Borsk would never jeopardize himself that way. He wouldn't want the Galaxy deprived of the leadership and vision that only he could provide. It is a sacrifice that he is willing to make (being deprived of the honor of being a martyr).
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I think it was more the Bothan's didn't officially join until after, but were leaning towards helping quite a bit, including the DS1 plans.
Anyway.
SW Celebration Anaheim..., so many people where crazy about the first panel and the new trailer, I could hear their screams from outside (couldn't be ars*d waiting in line, I had a bed and room to sleep in). Seeing the new troopers up close was nice, but I'm still very much undecided about how this will all go.