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General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: CT27 on December 15, 2014, 11:18:59 pm

Title: GTI vs. NTF
Post by: CT27 on December 15, 2014, 11:18:59 pm
Which organization would you say was morally worse:  the GTI (Silent Threat/ST:R) or the NTF?


Title: Re: GTI vs. NTF
Post by: headdie on December 16, 2014, 01:02:10 am
NTF

While both were traitors the NTF as a whole had no issues slaughtering vast numbers of non combattants just because they were there.
Title: Re: GTI vs. NTF
Post by: CT27 on December 16, 2014, 01:17:03 am
What was the GTI's ultimate goal regarding the Vasudans?
Title: Re: GTI vs. NTF
Post by: headdie on December 16, 2014, 01:29:31 am
In canon, unknown iirc

FS:ST the rogue element of the GTI was about power within the GTA, cant say about STR as not played it.
Title: Re: GTI vs. NTF
Post by: Goober5000 on December 16, 2014, 08:54:38 am
cant say about STR as not played it.

wut

You should play it.
Title: Re: GTI vs. NTF
Post by: headdie on December 16, 2014, 09:03:10 am
cant say about STR as not played it.

wut

You should play it.

I know I know
Title: Re: GTI vs. NTF
Post by: riomaki on December 16, 2014, 11:16:13 am
The NTF poses the more direct, immediate threat.  They are radicals who aren't afraid to kill anything that gets in their way.

The GTI is immoral, but in a more sinister way.  A contemporary comparison to the GTI would be if the NSA launched a coup.   We'll never know the full extent of the GTI's plans.  But, I think you could extrapolate based on the NSA comparison how nasty they could become if they wanted to be.

In hindsight, Silent Threat would have been a lot more interesting if it pursued a conspiracy angle rather than portraying the GTI as a bunch of angry guys who happened to build a giant destroyer.  That doesn't strike me as how an intelligence agency would defect.  They wouldn't take things by blunt force - they'd take them through manipulation.  Hence, the silent threat.   ;7
Title: Re: GTI vs. NTF
Post by: Goober5000 on December 16, 2014, 01:24:52 pm
In hindsight, Silent Threat would have been a lot more interesting if it pursued a conspiracy angle rather than portraying the GTI as a bunch of angry guys who happened to build a giant destroyer.  That doesn't strike me as how an intelligence agency would defect.  They wouldn't take things by blunt force - they'd take them through manipulation.  Hence, the silent threat.   ;7

You need to play Silent Threat: Reborn.  It is Silent Threat, but with FS2 production values. :D

(You might be interested to know that it is compatible with retail FS2. :p)
Title: Re: GTI vs. NTF
Post by: CT27 on December 16, 2014, 06:05:56 pm
Spoiler:
In ST:R it seemed the GTI wanted to "win" the war with the Vasudans.

However, they didn't explicitly target Vasudan civilians did they?  I only remember them attacking Vasudan military targets.

Spoiler'ed.  Solrazor (riomaki) hasn't played ST:R yet. :D   // G5K
Title: Re: GTI vs. NTF
Post by: Goober5000 on December 16, 2014, 10:48:02 pm
Yeah, in ST:R, the GTI didn't target Vasudan civilians.  (Though they accepted them as collateral damage if they happened to be associated with a military target.)
Title: Re: GTI vs. NTF
Post by: NGTM-1R on December 17, 2014, 12:18:05 am
In hindsight, Silent Threat would have been a lot more interesting if it pursued a conspiracy angle rather than portraying the GTI as a bunch of angry guys who happened to build a giant destroyer.  That doesn't strike me as how an intelligence agency would defect.  They wouldn't take things by blunt force - they'd take them through manipulation.  Hence, the silent threat.   ;7

They're trying to overthrow not one but two (because the Vasudans aren't going to take this sitting down) governments that are only being held together by the military need to confront an existential threat in the Shivans, who have both been in a state of war for at least a decade and a half at this point, and who have both have their capitals lost or destroyed by a decapitation strike within the last year.

Even if they seize control of the leadership or the capitals through stealth, they can't really expect everyone else to just roll over for them. These are people who have learned the value of decentralized control and commanders operating on their own initiative the hard way, who are primed and ready to take on anything that they perceive as a threat. The first mission of Silent Threat, where you essentially commit mass-murder to preserve the alliance with the Vasudans and not a single pilot in your unit even blinks, and you as a brand-new transfer to the squadron are totally trusted to go along with this, is illustrative of the level of commitment here.

At some point GTI is going to need their superdestroyer to pull this off, no matter how skillfully they are manipulative.
Title: Re: GTI vs. NTF
Post by: Hades on December 17, 2014, 12:31:24 am
(You might be interested to know that it is compatible with retail FS2. :p)
It's almost 2015 Goober, no one (sane) runs retail over FSO anymore.
Title: Re: GTI vs. NTF
Post by: Goober5000 on December 17, 2014, 12:07:19 pm
(You might be interested to know that it is compatible with retail FS2. :p)
It's almost 2015 Goober, no one (sane) runs retail over FSO anymore.

First, that's demonstrably incorrect, and second, look at riomaki's post history.  Just a few threads ago he was talking about running on retail FS2.  That's why I said that he might be interested.  The post wasn't addressed to you.
Title: Re: GTI vs. NTF
Post by: CT27 on December 17, 2014, 03:20:30 pm
While neither would be pleasant, I think a hypothetical GTI victory would be 'less worse' than a hypothetical NTF victory.
Title: Re: GTI vs. NTF
Post by: Goober5000 on December 17, 2014, 08:03:00 pm
While neither would be pleasant, I think a hypothetical GTI victory would be 'less worse' than a hypothetical NTF victory.

That's a very interesting thought experiment that probably deserves its own thread.  I happen to think that an NTF victory would be "less worse", because they just wanted to be left alone in their three systems with no overbearing GTVA and no Vasudans around to annoy them.  The GTI, on the other hand, placed no such restrictions on themselves.
Title: Re: GTI vs. NTF
Post by: NGTM-1R on December 17, 2014, 10:34:17 pm
That's a very interesting thought experiment that probably deserves its own thread.  I happen to think that an NTF victory would be "less worse", because they just wanted to be left alone in their three systems with no overbearing GTVA and no Vasudans around to annoy them.  The GTI, on the other hand, placed no such restrictions on themselves.

This completely ignores their offensive actions into Deneb and EP in the game. (Yes, Deneb was for Bosch's benefit, but he sure didn't sell it to his rank and file that way. Koth's offensive doesn't even have that minimal excuse.) There is no evidence for the position you're taking, and plenty of evidence for its opposite.
Title: Re: GTI vs. NTF
Post by: CT27 on December 17, 2014, 11:24:26 pm
That's a very interesting thought experiment that probably deserves its own thread.  I happen to think that an NTF victory would be "less worse", because they just wanted to be left alone in their three systems with no overbearing GTVA and no Vasudans around to annoy them.  The GTI, on the other hand, placed no such restrictions on themselves.

I was also considering the path each would take to get their victory; in that regard IMO, an NTF victory would have seen much more civilian casualties and bloodshed.
Title: Re: GTI vs. NTF
Post by: Goober5000 on December 18, 2014, 10:45:44 pm
That's a very interesting thought experiment that probably deserves its own thread.  I happen to think that an NTF victory would be "less worse", because they just wanted to be left alone in their three systems with no overbearing GTVA and no Vasudans around to annoy them.  The GTI, on the other hand, placed no such restrictions on themselves.

This completely ignores their offensive actions into Deneb and EP in the game. (Yes, Deneb was for Bosch's benefit, but he sure didn't sell it to his rank and file that way. Koth's offensive doesn't even have that minimal excuse.) There is no evidence for the position you're taking, and plenty of evidence for its opposite.

Don't confuse strategy with objectives.  The NTF wanted to bloody the GTVA's nose enough so that the populace would call for a peace settlement.  The suboptimal and failure debriefings in FS2 make it clear that both civilians and bureaucrats wanted to sue for peace.  And it's not unreasonable to think that the NTF would agree to withdraw from Deneb, Alpha Centauri, and Epsilon Pegasi in exchange for the independence of Polaris, Regulus, and Sirius.

Compare the NTF's strategy with that of Robert E. Lee during the Civil War.  More than once, Lee invaded the North, but he did it to put pressure on the Union, not to conquer it.
Title: Re: GTI vs. NTF
Post by: CT27 on December 24, 2014, 01:24:21 pm
It was stated in certain FS2 debriefings that there were some in the civilian government who wanted to make peace with the NTF.  Do you think that feeling extended to some Terran pilots in the GTVA as well?
Title: Re: GTI vs. NTF
Post by: Goober5000 on December 25, 2014, 02:08:51 pm
Possibly.  It depends on a number of factors, and on your definition of "make peace".
Title: Re: GTI vs. NTF
Post by: headdie on December 25, 2014, 04:04:29 pm
http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Briefing_texts_(FS2)#Into_the_Maelstrom - Debriefs 5, 6 & 7

Title: Re: GTI vs. NTF
Post by: Lt. Spanks on January 12, 2015, 11:12:04 am
The NTF's prime goal was to survive... this was not a conflict such as the one between the Terrans and Vasudans, in which both parties were attempting to annihilate one another. The NTF just needed to stay coherent and maintain at least a small resemblance of power through their military... the GTI had far different and more sinister plans
Title: Re: GTI vs. NTF
Post by: Megawolf492 on January 12, 2015, 09:40:44 pm
The GTI wanted to renew the Terran/Vasudan war and destroy the Vasudans. The NTF (not Bosch personally, mind you) wanted to separate from the Vasudans so they could focus on getting back to Earth (or at least make Polaris a nice place). There was no BETAC back in the GTI days, so they couldn't ignore it. One of the reasons for BETAC might have been the actions of the GTI. I'd take the NTF over the GTI if I was a civilian (or Vasudan).
Title: Re: GTI vs. NTF
Post by: Scotty on January 13, 2015, 04:14:58 pm
The NTF's prime goal was to survive... this was not a conflict such as the one between the Terrans and Vasudans, in which both parties were attempting to annihilate one another. The NTF just needed to stay coherent and maintain at least a small resemblance of power through their military... the GTI had far different and more sinister plans


The NTF's prime goal was to prolong a bloody standoff while Bosch pilfered Ancient excavations and contacted the Shivans.
Title: Re: GTI vs. NTF
Post by: headdie on January 13, 2015, 05:16:57 pm
The NTF's prime goal was to survive... this was not a conflict such as the one between the Terrans and Vasudans, in which both parties were attempting to annihilate one another. The NTF just needed to stay coherent and maintain at least a small resemblance of power through their military... the GTI had far different and more sinister plans


The NTF's prime goal was to prolong a bloody standoff while Bosch pilfered Ancient excavations and contacted the Shivans.

Not to mention that Bosh was prepared to throw literally everyone under the bus to attempt a scheme which was based on the assumption that the shivans have any interest in talking let alone negotiating with another race.

At least the GTI was a good old fashioned coup d'etat aimed at the government and to a lesser extent military
Title: Re: GTI vs. NTF
Post by: BritishShivans on January 14, 2015, 12:42:23 pm
It's really silly to me how people seem to believe here that the GTI wanted to explicitly commit genocide on the Vasudans. While it's pretty damned obvious that it was stupid, it seems like the GTI's mindset is that the alliance wouldn't last and that the war would start back up again - and that they wanted to strike first.

Seriously even though that GTI's actual objectives are vague and unstated, the most they want (inferring from the briefings and GTI's actions) was to neutralize the Vasudan's military capability as a threat to the GTA. That's it. No nebulous "vasudans are ****s let's kill off all of the vasudans" crap.

There's certainly racism (specieism?) behind their mindset/s, but they're not an army of ****ing Hitler clones.  :hopping:

And yeah, the NTF is pretty much just a giant meatshield for Bosch. He's rather happy to dispose of them once they serve their purpose (buying him time to pillage ancient artifacts and sites, as other people have said here) and once he's able to initiate communication with the Shivans.