Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Bobboau on January 21, 2015, 02:20:22 pm
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https://www.4chan.org/news?all#118
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A Moot will convene to determine the new Moot
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A Moot will convene to determine the new Moot
A Mootsmoot, if you will.
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from the sounds of it he's already set up a Council of Moot
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It's a moot point.
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It's a moot point.
Thanks, I couldn't find an elegant way to make that joke.
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http://imgur.com/gallery/q7O3i
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It's just too bad that 4chan hasn't also stepped off the Internet.
I'm a major project of free speech and that cesspool even makes me consider the potential worthiness of legal censorship. Ugh.
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I'm curious, have you ever gone there?
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I'm curious, have you ever gone there?
I know this was not directed at me, but I never have, perhaps outside the rare time some Google search hits on it. Really the only impression I have of it is this place's bad opinion of it. If you want to tell a different side of the story, I'd listen.
As for Moot, this means I have no idea if this is a good thing or a bad. Either way, Moot is now moot.
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To no one in particular, 4chan is not synonymous with /b/, there are other boards there.
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To no one in particular, 4chan is not synonymous with /b/, there are other boards there.
Which doesn't make /b/ less of a steaming cesspool.
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To no one in particular, 4chan is not synonymous with /b/, there are other boards there.
Which doesn't make /b/ less of a steaming cesspool.
No, but people talk about 4chan as if /b/ is the only board there.
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To no one in particular, 4chan is not synonymous with /b/, there are other boards there.
So, umm... what's /b/? :nervous:
But I was wondering about this kind of thing, if people might be letting some rotten apples spoil the whole barrel.
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There are a ton of boards on 4chan, each dedicated to a topic ranging from traditional board games to porn. /b/ is where everything else goes.
Unfortunately on the internet, everything else means really nasty stuff.
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Moreso on 4chan than anywhere else on the internet even. Just saying it without prefacing it like that is liable to leave people with an incomplete grasp of the enormity of the thing.
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Better stay out of there then if I should ever end up there (4chan). Thanks.
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So, umm... what's /b/? :nervous:
/b/ is to 4chan what 4chan is to the rest of the internet, it's 4chan's General Discussion, it's the source of 4chan's power reputation
4chan.org/b/ (it is NOT safe for work (or home unless you pay the mortgage), that not being a link was very much on purpose)
4chan, and in particular 4chan's /b/ has a reputation for being the darkest most edgy horrible place on the internet, so people who want to do the worst thing imaginable on the internet go there to be as horrible as they can possibly be. and any time that it gets an unusual level of interest the regulars spam it with porn and gore to scare all of the tourists away. /b/ is the place where people who were told that they can't do something on the internet go to do it. considering that and the fact that it is often called "the **** hole of the internet", it's not "that" bad, there are places on the internet MUCH worse, though many of them are sites for literal hate groups or criminal enterprises, but there is a huge gap there.
most of the other "SFW"* boards, /a/ /co/ /v/ /x/ are not significantly worse than HLP GenDisc. some might even be more civil (thinking /sci/ /g/ /p /po/)
*not actually safe for work
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Really about the only stuff that doesn't happen on /b/ is stuff that is, you know, actually illegal. I understand that occasionally illegal material gets posted there, but the community chomps down on that hard (if they didn't, /b/ might get shut down, after all).
I sometimes wonder what 2ch and Futaba Channel think of 4chan, considering they more or less spawned it in the first place.
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yeah, remember, the site has just celebrated it's 11th year, and millions of people use it. The site it's self is safe to view both technically and legally (just don't be an idiot and trust anything said by anyone "The stories and information posted here are artistic works of fiction and falsehood..Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."). they haven't had a consistent problem with illegal content for a long time, it's pretty rare these days and the people posting it get sent straight to the FBI.
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So, umm... what's /b/? :nervous:
/b/ is to 4chan what 4chan is to the rest of the internet, it's 4chan's General Discussion, it's the source of 4chan's power reputation
4chan.org/b/ (it is NOT safe for work (or home unless you pay the mortgage), that not being a link was very much on purpose)
4chan, and in particular 4chan's /b/ has a reputation for being the darkest most edgy horrible place on the internet, so people who want to do the worst thing imaginable on the internet go there to be as horrible as they can possibly be. and any time that it gets an unusual level of interest the regulars spam it with porn and gore to scare all of the tourists away. /b/ is the place where people who were told that they can't do something on the internet go to do it. considering that and the fact that it is often called "the **** hole of the internet", it's not "that" bad, there are places on the internet MUCH worse, though many of them are sites for literal hate groups or criminal enterprises, but there is a huge gap there.
You don't get this stuff (http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2014/nov/06/suspect-in-4chan-case-surrenders-to-police-in-oregon) on most hate sites.
most of the other "SFW"* boards, /a/ /co/ /v/ /x/ are not significantly worse than HLP GenDisc. some might even be more civil (thinking /sci/ /g/ /p /po/)
I must have missed all the over the top anti-semetic threads in GenDisc, cause /v/ was filled with that stuff last time I checked it out.
Personally, I'm baffled why everyone feels the need to defend and downplay 4chan aside from some urge to offer up a contrary opinion. It is a cesspool. Everything organized on that site with the exception of Project Chanology has been pretty appalling (I apologize for applying actual moral principles to anything on the internet). I don't need to work hard to establish that. Give me a more interesting devil's advocate position to play.
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I'll be perfectly honest, I don't go to /v/ very often, was assuming it was like /a/ and /co/, the only board I regular is /co/ and a few years ago /a/ (every now and then /x/ is fun too) so maybe it's as horrible as /pol/ or maybe you happened to visit it while /v/ and /pol/ had a common goal and thus /pol/ was essentially invading it. think about what brought you there and what happened on that board around that time, maybe you did not get a representative sample,
as far as murders posted on 4chan, well, it happens on FaceBook (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2045454/McDonalds-worker-David-Russell-used-Facebook-lure-Maricar-Benedicto-cut-throat.html), YouTube (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Anthony_Powell), and twitter (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/10/21/she-tweeted-against-the-mexican-cartels-they-tweeted-her-murder.html), and they don't have a reputation that would attract it. Any popular website is going to get that, and 4chan gets a lot of traffic..
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think about what brought you there and what happened on that board around that time, maybe you did not get a representative sample,
Ok, since you made the GenDisc comparison, let's compare HLP at its worst with /v/ at its worst, and see what we get.
Personally, I'd rather like to avoid hanging out in a forum where there's a non-zero chance that at any one time it will be filled with threads about how the ethnic group my wife belongs needs to be put back in concentration camps. I'll stick to my echo chamber, thank you very much.
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well, then you will avoid the entire internet, because there is a non-zero chance of that happening anywhere.
and certainly any part of 4chan has far worse extremes than HLP, I was referring to the average, I don't see what a few outliers has to do with anything,
echo chambers are boring and I can handle people saying things I don't like.
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well, then you will avoid the entire internet, because there is a non-zero chance of that happening anywhere.
and certainly any part of 4chan has far worse extremes than HLP, I was referring to the average, I don't see what a few outliers has to do with anything,
Okay, I'd like you to estimate the probability that GenDisc will ever, at any one point in time, be filled with anti-semetic threads. Mods, feel free to give your guess as well.
echo chambers are boring and I can handle people saying things I don't like.
I was being sarcastic by implying that wanting to avoid antisemitism in my online discussion would make me guilty of seeking an echo chamber. Sailed right over your head. Unless you agree with that sentiment.
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I figured you were using that as a reclaimed pejorative to refer to 'safe spaces' or something to that effect.
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Nope, just wondering how far the bar was being lowered.
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/b/ and /v/ are both filled with whiny teenagers, hence the cesspool. It's a far cry from the 'terror' that it was five years ago, ever since Moot stopped actually participating/caring.
Go to /tg/. That board has created entire tabletop game systems and written enough story content to fill several novels.
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/b/ and /v/ are both filled with whiny teenagers, hence the cesspool. Go to /tg/. That board has created entire tabletop game systems and written enough story content to fill several novels.
Go to /tg/. That board has created entire tabletop game systems and written enough story content to fill several novels.
Did Katawa Shoujo get spawned off there?
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no, that's from /a/
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/b/ and /v/ are both filled with whiny teenagers, hence the cesspool. Go to /tg/. That board has created entire tabletop game systems and written enough story content to fill several novels.
Go to /tg/. That board has created entire tabletop game systems and written enough story content to fill several novels.
Did Katawa Shoujo get spawned off there?
No, that was a scattered bunch of independent 4chan users, plus other sites like Reddit and Tumblr. (EDIT: Yea, mostly /a/ from 4chan as well)
/tg/ are the ones that managed to create a tabletop version of Neon Genesis Evangelion using the Dark Heresy ruleset.
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and to be clear we are talking about this game (http://www.kotaku.com.au/2012/01/unexpected-sincerity-disabilities-girls-and-katawa-shoujo/). (leery about where you are going with this...)
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and to be clear we are talking about this game (http://www.kotaku.com.au/2012/01/unexpected-sincerity-disabilities-girls-and-katawa-shoujo/). (leery about where you are going with this...)
I'm not going anywhere with it. Just curious.
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4chan is one of the moral dumps of the internet. Getting rid of it will only move the trash around. I have no problems with the anonymity and frankness of the website but largely laissez-faire moderation does not really help the content.
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I'm not going anywhere with it. Just curious.
ok, well, like you (I assume) I have never and have no desire to play that game, but it's more due to the fact that the visual novel and romance/dating sim genre has no interest for me (although I may break down and play Saya no Uta one of these days). I have heard literally nothing but praise for that game, which surprised me as I was expecting it to be nothing more than an idiotic fetish piece. so if you have a negative impression of it, it's possible you prejudged it. because it's from 4chan. leading back to the theme of our dialog, maybe there is more to 4chan than you think there is.
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I'm not going anywhere with it. Just curious.
ok, well, like you (I assume) I have never and have no desire to play that game, but it's more due to the fact that the visual novel and romance/dating sim genre has no interest for me (although I may break down and play Saya no Uta one of these days). I have heard literally nothing but praise for that game, which surprised me as I was expecting it to be nothing more than an idiotic fetish piece. so if you have a negative impression of it, it's possible you prejudged it. because it's from 4chan. leading back to the theme of our dialog, maybe there is more to 4chan than you think there is.
That post had more jumping to conclusions than Super Mario World.
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more like going way out on a limb
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I'm curious, have you ever gone there?
Yes.
4chan - and the fact that it hosts /b/ in the first place - is a cesspool. It is, in fact, the greatest argument in favour of anti-anonymity measures and censorship on the Internet. Fortunately, those of us who fight for civil liberties don't use one example as a case for draconian measures, but it certainly is tempting some days.
8chan is, of course, even worse, not that anyone really thought that was possible until someone managed to go and do it.
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It should be noted that most of the Katawa Shoujo team aren't even channers. From their FAQ:
Q: Are you all Anonymous posters from 4chan?
A: No. Several of us browse 4chan occasionally, and we might post even more occasionally, but that's it.
That said, it doesn't change the fact that it all originated from a 4chan post, and I recommend the game (http://www.katawa-shoujo.com/) to anyone that hasn't played it yet, even/especially if you've never played a dating sim before.
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It should be noted that most of the Katawa Shoujo team aren't even channers. From their FAQ:
Q: Are you all Anonymous posters from 4chan?
A: No. Several of us browse 4chan occasionally, and we might post even more occasionally, but that's it.
That said, it doesn't change the fact that it all originated from a 4chan post, and I recommend the game (http://www.katawa-shoujo.com/) to anyone that hasn't played it yet, even/especially if you've never played a dating sim before.
I have no interest in playing the game ("relationship sim" = bleh, anime = more bleh), but I did some searching about it after your post and it seems to have been fairly positively received. Then I Googled some of YouTube clips of its "gameplay."
Yeah. I will not be installing that. And this further entrenches my view of content spawned on/from 4chan. Pass.
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graph of MP-Ryan's recent contempt of 4chan:
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________ /
\_____/
at least you looked into it.
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You have waaaaaay too much time spent on the bottom of that graph. Frankly, that downtrend would be better represented as a |
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Yes.
4chan - and the fact that it hosts /b/ in the first place - is a cesspool. It is, in fact, the greatest argument in favour of anti-anonymity measures and censorship on the Internet. Fortunately, those of us who fight for civil liberties don't use one example as a case for draconian measures, but it certainly is tempting some days.
8chan is, of course, even worse, not that anyone really thought that was possible until someone managed to go and do it.
4chan is not a good argument for censorship. There are sporadic credible terrorist threats or posts directly connected to serious criminal activity (tough this happens to a lesser degree on every major forum). But 99.9% of 4chan content, while often objectionable, does not warrant any anti-anonymity measures or censorship. 4chan grew to be one of the biggest sites on the internet, moderation is more strict than it used to be years ago, and I believe its reputation is now a lot worse than reality.
The best argument for anti-anonymity measures are sites where actual terrorists and their extremist friends tend to communicate.
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**** like silk road
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All of the things maslo just mentioned are already illegal and have [significant] law enforcement and intelligence resources aimed at them. They are not an argument for anti-anonymity measures and censorship because they are already prohibited by law. Notice the fellow [allegedly] responsible for Silk Road is presently on trial?
By contrast, and with the exception of the occasional child porn, most of the things posted on 4chan are perfectly legal, if abhorrent. Ergo, it IS an argument in favour of anti-anonymity measures and censorship (even if it's an argument with which I happen to ultimately disagree).
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they got what they deserved?
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All of the things maslo just mentioned are already illegal and have [significant] law enforcement and intelligence resources aimed at them. They are not an argument for anti-anonymity measures and censorship because they are already prohibited by law.
But the point and justification of most proposed anti-anonymity measures (like dragnet surveillance, no warrant surveillance and data retention) is to help law enforcement enforce these existing laws. Terrorism being the biggest target. I dont see any reason why someone would use 4chan as a justification of those laws. As I said, most of the content, while objectionable, is usualy legal, so it doesnt make sense when there is much more serious stuff out there.
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But the point and justification of most proposed anti-anonymity measures (like dragnet surveillance, no warrant surveillance and data retention) is to help law enforcement enforce these existing laws. Terrorism being the biggest target. I dont see any reason why someone would use 4chan as a justification of those laws. As I said, most of the content, while objectionable, is usualy legal, so it doesnt make sense when there is much more serious stuff out there.
The point of anti-anonymity measures is to not preclude the social consequences of your actions. If you want anonymous discussion (which is a perfectly good thing to want) the quality of discussion will generally turn to **** without real moderation.
Ergo, it IS an argument in favour of anti-anonymity measures and censorship (even if it's an argument with which I happen to ultimately disagree).
You seem have very little problems with the quality of content on HLP and I don't see any fundamental problems with censorious moderation here, what would be so bad about having moderation on 4chan as strict as here at HLP?
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if you want to talk about lack of moderation, Twitter. Twitter is actually far less moderated than anything on 4chan. removing a post that has a racial slur in it is different than removing a bad post.
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But the point and justification of most proposed anti-anonymity measures (like dragnet surveillance, no warrant surveillance and data retention) is to help law enforcement enforce these existing laws. Terrorism being the biggest target. I dont see any reason why someone would use 4chan as a justification of those laws. As I said, most of the content, while objectionable, is usualy legal, so it doesnt make sense when there is much more serious stuff out there.
4chan is used as a justification for making things that are presently legal into things that should be illegal. It is an argument *for* censorship - the most common example being rampant, unmoderated hate speech. Again, not something I personally agree with but I see where proponents are coming from
You seem have very little problems with the quality of content on HLP and I don't see any fundamental problems with censorious moderation here, what would be so bad about having moderation on 4chan as strict as here at HLP?
Moderation is not censorship. I have no issue with moderation and community standards. These things do not impede freedom of expression/thought/association.
if you want to talk about lack of moderation, Twitter. Twitter is actually far less moderated than anything on 4chan. removing a post that has a racial slur in it is different than removing a bad post.
Twitter has its issues, but they are working to improve the levels of moderation and eliminate harassment. 4chan.... not so much.
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that's the thing though, 4chan does in fact have moderation, not a lot, but it's there. twitter is almost completely unmoderated.
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that's the thing though, 4chan does in fact have moderation, not a lot, but it's there. twitter is almost completely unmoderated.
Because they're completely identical in degree of difficulty to moderate.
And I've seen with my own eyes that twitter is making a real effort to improve. There are also 3rd party anti-harrassment tools being created for it as well.
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ok, so then we do not disagree in any meaningful way.
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4chan is used as a justification for making things that are presently legal into things that should be illegal. It is an argument *for* censorship - the most common example being rampant, unmoderated hate speech. Again, not something I personally agree with but I see where proponents are coming from
Frankly, as long as hate speech laws exist, I consider the existence of a huge forum with rampant hate speech almost an act of civil disobedience. 4chan (and 8chan) is a canary in a coal mine of our freedoms. It also makes the enforcement of such laws much harder in practice.
Not everything on the net needs to be moderated. There is a niche for sites with little moderation.
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Not everything on the net needs to be moderated. There is a niche for sites with little moderation.
As long as what happens on those boards stays confined to them, I have no problem with their existence. However, once it crosses the line and spills over into the world outside of the channer community (doxxing, swatting) it's much harder for me to agree with the stance that these places are somehow necessary for freedom of speech.
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4channer: This site needs to exist because of freedom of speech.
Sensible person: So why are you doxxing and swatting people?
4channer: They said something I didn't like!
:rolleyes:
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Come now, you don't go around swatting people who say something you don't like, you only do it if you think their reaction might be really amusing. And if you want to talk about stuff like that, then TorChan is much worse than 4chan or 8chan.
4Chan really isn't as bad as it's reputation is, as long as you steer clear of /b/. I mean, nobody's forcing you to browse it. The anonymity means that all posts are judged only by their content, not some bs like "Karma" or how famous you are.
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Come now, you don't go around swatting people who say something you don't like, you only do it if you think their reaction might be really amusing.
Recent events seem to paint a different picture. Also, swatting in the US has turned from "annoying prank" to "potentially life-threatening situation", so claiming to do it only for the lulz makes it a bit disturbing, to say the least.
And if you want to talk about stuff like that, then TorChan is much worse than 4chan or 8chan.
4Chan really isn't as bad as it's reputation is, as long as you steer clear of /b/. I mean, nobody's forcing you to browse it. The anonymity means that all posts are judged only by their content, not some bs like "Karma" or how famous you are.
See, this is what I can't comprehend. This idea that attributability and recognition are bad or undesirable (and the entire variety of memes that spring from this) is completely alien to me.
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4channer: This site needs to exist because of freedom of speech.
Sensible person: So why are you doxxing and swatting people?
4channer: They said something I didn't like!
:rolleyes:
Swatting people is illegal and has nothing to do with internet forum permissivness (its an action that happens in real life, not on the forums, it cannot be prevented by moderating forums more). But indeed, supporting such a thing as a revenge for speech would not be consistent with supporting freedom of speech.
When it comes to doxxing, its not logically inconsistent to support doxxing and freedom of speech at the same time, doxxing is nothing else than just releasing information on the forums after all (speech) - as long as you are okay with it in principle (https://8ch.net/doxthecripple/), not just when your opponents are the target (http://skepchick.org/2014/12/why-im-okay-with-doxing/), there is no double standard.
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When it comes to doxxing, its not logically inconsistent to support doxxing and freedom of speech at the same time, doxxing is nothing else than just releasing information on the forums after all (speech) - as long as you are okay with it in principle (https://8ch.net/doxthecripple/), not just when your opponents are the target (http://skepchick.org/2014/12/why-im-okay-with-doxing/), there is no double standard.
Doxxing is more than "just releasing information". The person posting the doxx shares responsibility for the actions of those using those doxx, whatever they may be.
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And if you want to talk about stuff like that, then TorChan is much worse than 4chan or 8chan.
4Chan really isn't as bad as it's reputation is, as long as you steer clear of /b/. I mean, nobody's forcing you to browse it. The anonymity means that all posts are judged only by their content, not some bs like "Karma" or how famous you are.
See, this is what I can't comprehend. This idea that attributability and recognition are bad or undesirable (and the entire variety of memes that spring from this) is completely alien to me.
I am not familiar with these memes. Can someone point me to them please?
This thing about 4chan being anonymous keeps soming up. Is it somehow more anonymous than Hard Light, or is it the same, because we're anonymous here with just our handles to identify us by.
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4chan doesn't even use handles a vast majority of the time. Almost everyone who posts does so as "Anonymous" with no other identifiers.
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I am not familiar with these memes. Can someone point me to them please?
I'm using memes in the original meaning of "viral ideas" here, not image macros.
Chan culture popularizes excessive rudeness, spawning the idea that moderating your language is unnecessary and undesirable. It assumes that trying to be notable is a bad thing; anonymity being king, attempts to stand out should be met with instant hostility; Related to that, if you are notable and get targeted by the chan hivemind, it's your fault. The old idea that in order to get rid of the troll, one must ignore it, even though that tactic doesn't really work and doesn't fix the trolling problem, basically.
Chan culture, at its best, can create incredible works. At its worst, and more often than not, it's the bad sides that spill outside of it, it creates incredibly toxic environments and hostility.
This thing about 4chan being anonymous keeps soming up. Is it somehow more anonymous than Hard Light, or is it the same, because we're anonymous here with just our handles to identify us by.
More anonymous. At HLP, we are using pseudonyms (unless you're Luis Dias), chans generally do not have usernames; The idea being that everyone is the same as everyone else.
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I see. Yes, that's certainly something strange and different, something beyond what we have here where we are anonymous, unless we choose not to be. And even if we are anonymous, we're still distinct from each other as our handles identify us.
Regarding ignoring trolls, it can get rid of the troll, but if it doesn't get rid of the troll, but everyone still ignores the troll, then it neutralises the troll. I still think it's the most effective way to deal with trolls.
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I see. Yes, that's certainly something strange and different, something beyond what we have here where we are anonymous, unless we choose not to be. And even if we are anonymous, we're still distinct from each other as our handles identify us.
Regarding ignoring trolls, it can get rid of the troll, but if it doesn't get rid of the troll, but everyone still ignores the troll, then it neutralises the troll. I still think it's the most effective way to deal with trolls.
Key word there: troll. Singular.
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coherent conversations happen on 4chan, ignoring trolls does work when you have a community that understands how to deal with them.
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coherent conversations happen on 4chan, ignoring trolls does work when you have a community that understands how to deal with them.
And when all the potential targets for sustained attack are already driven off/never were on the site. One of several ways a certain homogeneity of thought is enforced there.
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And when all the potential targets for sustained attack are already driven off/never were on the site. One of several ways a certain homogeneity of thought is enforced there.
Are we talking about the same 4chan here? I don't ever browse /b/, but for every other board there's almost nothing the whole board can agree with. Maybe hating tumblr, twitter, and VLC is universal, but I don't think you need much enforcement for that. This is natural, as your tastes are superior, and everyone else's are ****.