Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: CT27 on April 11, 2015, 01:04:47 pm
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We don't know that much about the Shivans, but do you think they experience feelings of loss?
Specifically I have two questions in this regard:
1-How do individual Shivan pilots feel when they got back from a mission and there are some 'empty seats' in the debriefing room for the squadron?
2-On a more strategic level, how do you think the Shivans felt when they learned the Sathanas was destroyed by the Colossus?
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I don't believe that Shivans experience any feelings. They are mostly cybernetic.
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Well, that all depends on what your Shivan theory of choice is.
If Shivans aren't really individuals, if they're some kind of hive-mind or whatever, then they probably don't.
Even if Shivans are individuals, they would probably be raised in a highly regimented/de-individualized culture, which thinks nothing of throwing wave after wave of expendable strikecraft at the enemy.
Well, they had eighty more Saths in relatively quick response distance, so they probably weren't too concerned about losing one, one way or another.
Since Shivan culture is a big MYSTERIOUS blank slate, you could certainly have emotional Shivans in your headcanon/campaign. There's just no evidence that they feel emotions like we do.
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Obviously they experience evil rage.
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edit: my posts are stupid and I suck
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I find it interesting that people assume a hive mind is hardened against loss. You can live through losing fingers, or even bits of your brain, but it's still something you'd probably try to avoid.
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A fair point! Orthogonally, I do not think there is much evidence for a Shivan hive mind. In fact I think the canonical material warns us not to settle for that cliche.
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In fact I think the canonical material warns us not to settle for that cliche.
Citation needed
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See the techroom entry on Shivans.
A leading hypothesis is the hive mind theory, arguing that Shivan society is broken down in specialized functions driven by a collective intelligence. The most convincing evidence supporting this theory is the behavior of Shivan forces following the destruction of the SD Lucifer, the turning point of the Great War. Other experts caution against attributing insectoid properties to the Shivans, regardless of their appearance and behavior.
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Given that there is apparently a fairly significant gap between Sathanas 1 and Sathanas 2, but a much, much lesser gap between Sathanas 2 and Sathanas 80something, if anything the Shivans would seem prone to extreme overreaction.
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capella was actually a shivan funeral rite
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They keep coming back for more despite Alpha 1's estimated 600:0 kill ratio so even if they don't enjoy it they're definitely used to it.
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They sent up the Sathanas fleet to engage Alpha 1! Shivans got enough of his crap destroying entire fleets. He was to meet them at Capella sun at dawn ((like the cowboys of old in the movies)), but he cowarded and ran away, so they blowed up the place!
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See the techroom entry on Shivans.
A leading hypothesis is the hive mind theory, arguing that Shivan society is broken down in specialized functions driven by a collective intelligence. The most convincing evidence supporting this theory is the behavior of Shivan forces following the destruction of the SD Lucifer, the turning point of the Great War. Other experts caution against attributing insectoid properties to the Shivans, regardless of their appearance and behavior.
The problem is this cites their appearance and behavior.
What we know of Shivan behavior in the missions is tactical, not strategic, not personal, not interpersonal. Given the huge variation in behavior among insects and how they approach the problem of killing or avoiding being killed, what we know cannot be described as having "insect-like behavior". Given that they're suggesting social insects with a hive-mind, this means it's likely they're referring to social or interpersonal behaviors that we have not seen.
There is something we don't know but the GTVA does, which leads their experts, even the ones that don't necessarily believe in a hive mind, to ascribe insect-like behavior to them. Without having the evidence for ourselves, and we know from this that we do not have all the available evidence, we can't judge the hypothesis being advanced.
With all due respect to Battuta, the final sentence is in a briefing for pilots (we're a pilot, that's why we know this) and could simply be included as an admonition not to think of individual Shivans as somehow less capable or dumber than you are. We really don't know what the breakdown of experts is or exactly how much the GTVA knows about how Shivans behave. It's possible that it's a great deal more than we expect if they managed to capture live Shivans during the Great War or exactly how many times Hallfight-esque boarding actions played out.
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Also it is worth pointing out that insects don't have a hive mind.
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Shivans being back from a mission?
You must be high on something, nothing survives Alpha 1.
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So it's possible the Colossus winning against the first Sathanas didn't even get a "Oh...darn" light reaction from them?
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Do you think Shivans have qualia?
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There's a comic with a couple shivans speculating on if Terrans are actually intelligent or not, but damned if I can find it.
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They eat the empty seats and poop out more Shivans.
Duh.
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One of the FreakSpace cartoons, perhaps?
http://www.shatteredstar.org/groups/freespace/freakspace.html
None of them seem to be exactly what you describe, however.
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Nah that was the first place I looked.
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Like they're flying around and say hello to an Orion and then it launches like a million perseuses.
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Like they're flying around and say hello to an Orion and then it launches like a million perseuses.
It turns out that the energy patterns of a laser hitting a shield are actually the Shivans' natural form of communication. They were just as confused as anyone at the Terran and Zod response to their attempts at first contact, and thus expanded their broadcasts to include missiles and beams. In the end they concluded that these species, like the Ancients ten thousand years before, were xenocidal empires with no interest in peace, and thus took up actual arms to protect themselves from the aggressors.
It's tragic, really.
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Carl invited all of his buddies over for a nice real shivan meal just beyond that third knossos. He'd been to earth and cloned a lot of pigs for pulled pork and bbq sandwiches. That sounds delicious!
All of those sathanases turned around to head for the capella sun when they saw and more than objected to carls lifestyle and get up.
(http://oi61.tinypic.com/35a1752.jpg)
They sought a bbq after wishing they could poke their minds eye or eyes out. They caused a supernova in a major mass suicide.
A few sathanases escaped just before the last moment. They figured for what they saw of carl, they could care less since the food smelled sooo good.