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Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Sandwich on September 30, 2015, 06:00:54 pm

Title: Please explain to me the logic behind US building codes
Post by: Sandwich on September 30, 2015, 06:00:54 pm
I just watched the MythBusters episode where they test if the doorframe is the safest place to be during an earthquake. They concluded that while that was true for old-style masonry buildings which don't adhere to current US Building Code (since the doorframe was usually reinforced with rebar), it actually wasn't the safest place to be in an all-wood house built to code*; instead, the "drop, cover, and hold on" tactic of getting beneath a sturdy desk or table is preferable.

* Their "excuse" about it not being safe was that the mannekin mounted in the doorframe kept on getting "spanked" by the door swinging back and forth, and eventually fell over. Please.

But fine, whatever - the issue I want to bring up is entirely different. I understood from that episode that US Building Code mandates homes be constructed out of wood, not masonry, to... better withstand earthquakes (? Perhaps other reasons as well?), right? Ok, so let's see how many people have died in US earthquakes over the years (http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/states/us_deaths.php). Going back to 1812, we have a grand total of 4,032 deaths in 46 quakes over 202 years (mostly in California, too - yikes!).

So wooden homes withstand earthquakes far better than masonry, as MythBusters confirmed beyond any doubt. However, do you see the glaring problem with this concept yet?

Wood catches fire. Masonry doesn't catch fire. Hmm.... how many deaths in the US are due to house fires over the years (http://www.nfpa.org/research/reports-and-statistics/fires-by-property-type/residential/home-fires)? Well, the data I found only goes back to 1977, not 1812, so take that into consideration when I reveal that in the mere 36 years the table covers, there have been over 140 THOUSAND deaths from house fires. :eek2:

Ok, so your turn: please explain to me the logic in mandating that homes be built from flammable wood instead of fire-proof masonry.
Title: Re: Please explain to me the logic behind US building codes
Post by: Bobboau on September 30, 2015, 06:04:38 pm
dis an inlluminatus plowt!
Title: Re: Please explain to me the logic behind US building codes
Post by: pecenipicek on September 30, 2015, 06:50:35 pm
I just watched the MythBusters episode where they test if the doorframe is the safest place to be during an earthquake. They concluded that while that was true for old-style masonry buildings which don't adhere to current US Building Code (since the doorframe was usually reinforced with rebar), it actually wasn't the safest place to be in an all-wood house built to code*; instead, the "drop, cover, and hold on" tactic of getting beneath a sturdy desk or table is preferable.

* Their "excuse" about it not being safe was that the mannekin mounted in the doorframe kept on getting "spanked" by the door swinging back and forth, and eventually fell over. Please.

But fine, whatever - the issue I want to bring up is entirely different. I understood from that episode that US Building Code mandates homes be constructed out of wood, not masonry, to... better withstand earthquakes (? Perhaps other reasons as well?), right? Ok, so let's see how many people have died in US earthquakes over the years (http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/states/us_deaths.php). Going back to 1812, we have a grand total of 4,032 deaths in 46 quakes over 202 years (mostly in California, too - yikes!).

So wooden homes withstand earthquakes far better than masonry, as MythBusters confirmed beyond any doubt. However, do you see the glaring problem with this concept yet?

Wood catches fire. Masonry doesn't catch fire. Hmm.... how many deaths in the US are due to house fires over the years (http://www.nfpa.org/research/reports-and-statistics/fires-by-property-type/residential/home-fires)? Well, the data I found only goes back to 1977, not 1812, so take that into consideration when I reveal that in the mere 36 years the table covers, there have been over 140 THOUSAND deaths from house fires. :eek2:

Ok, so your turn: please explain to me the logic in mandating that homes be built from flammable wood instead of fire-proof masonry.
Cost. Not neccesarily for the owner.

Spoiler:
Not in the USA, no knowledge, speaking from what i'm roughly know whats going on there


Btw, i do believe that the codes are more like "minimum safety standards" than "HOUSES MUST BE MADE OF WOOD."
Title: Re: Please explain to me the logic behind US building codes
Post by: Phantom Hoover on September 30, 2015, 07:10:12 pm
I find it really hard to believe that it's illegal to build a stone house in the US, and the Googling I've done makes me very sceptical of the idea.
Title: Re: Please explain to me the logic behind US building codes
Post by: Mongoose on September 30, 2015, 07:50:25 pm
You should be, as there's nothing illegal about it at all.  It's just that building a home out of masonry of some sort is prohibitively expensive for most people, unless you like living in a 9-square-meter concrete bunker.
Title: Re: Please explain to me the logic behind US building codes
Post by: karajorma on September 30, 2015, 08:53:08 pm
But why? In the UK we build almost exclusively out of masonry and I don't see anyone building in wood to save money. And it's not just fires that are the problem, every time I look at tornado and hurricane damage I wonder why in an area known to suffer from high winds, they choose to build a house that they know the big bad wolf could defeat.
Title: Re: Please explain to me the logic behind US building codes
Post by: Mongoose on September 30, 2015, 09:52:56 pm
In hurricane-prone coastal regions, newer construction requires more stringent building codes, primarily around securing the roof and siding.  Even a wood-frame house doesn't necessarily have much trouble standing up against your average hurricane's wind field (unless you take a direct hit from the eye, maybe): it's usually the storm surge that wreaks the most havoc, and stone or brick won't stand up much better than wood to that.  As for Tornado Alley, while I personally wouldn't be caught dead living in a wood-framed house there, it's far cheaper to construct an underground storm shelter than an entire reinforced structure.  Plus, once tornadoes get strong enough, what your building is made out of really doesn't matter much in the end.

As for the more general question, it's something I've honestly never stopped to consider, and some random Googling brings up all sorts of interesting speculation, from the fact that wood-framed houses allow for better insulation strategies to the more farfetched idea that Americans never had to worry about invading feudal armies storming about pillaging towns.  The historical possibility that makes the most sense to me is that, when the first European settlers arrived here, North America had a lot of forests.  Like, a LOT a lot.  From the very beginning pretty much everything was built out of wood, with only the wealthiest getting stone or brick houses (minus a few regional anomalies where stone would have been more plentiful).  Home builders' experience was always with wood, and the trend has stuck to this day, when we still have decently-huge forests.  In more modern terms, the huge suburban boom which began after WWII has never really subsided, and new home construction is big business, so being able to build them more cheaply and much more quickly is very advantageous.  Americans tend to go for larger homes than most Europeans, so most people will try to get more bang for their buck; in addition, the housing crisis nonwithstanding, home ownership is seen as something that pretty much everyone aspires to, so being able to build them cheaply enables that.  And not that I have any sources on it, but I saw several people comment that as a rule, European families tend to stay relatively more settled, whereas Americans move more frequently; the former case would place more value on a house that's likely to be in good shape for a century or more.

In short, I dunno really.  Just basic cultural differences I guess.  Our own house was built by a kinda-shady developer, but almost 25 years later it's still hanging in there.  And with the amount of settling it's done over the years, we'd probably have huge gaping cracks all over the place if it was built of masonry. :p
Title: Re: Please explain to me the logic behind US building codes
Post by: z64555 on October 01, 2015, 12:06:37 am
Eh, wood's probably a bit more renewable than clay, lime, gravel, etc. needed to build masonry houses. Although, I see nothing wrong with having like a concrete/brick low wall on the outside that's then filled in with wood.

There's some newer masonry techniques that are actually faster than wood building in some instances, I'm talking about where they build entire reinforced walls with concrete and a removable Styrofoam cast. Some casts can actually double as insulation, too.

Also, to be clear, Building codes vary widely between State, County, and even City political influences. We've got a dumb-ass building code around here that mandates the front door (and only the front door) of trailer houses to be supported under both sides of the door frame. Should ever the foundation shift (it always does) you instantly have problems opening the thing. Supposedly the politics going up to the legalization of that code was so that emergency responders could safely knock down the door without worrying about knocking down an entire wall (which I find dubious).
Title: Re: Please explain to me the logic behind US building codes
Post by: swashmebuckle on October 01, 2015, 01:12:16 am
My guesses:

1) We've always had a surplus of unskilled immigrant workers who can be payed at or less than minimum wage and who have high turnover, so contractors have a big incentive to go with the cheap 'n easy stuff.

2) I think compared to other places we might tend to build housing in trendy styles that become dated very quickly and make people want to knock the place down and build a new one when they buy the property. The house I grew up in is unmistakably a 70's house even though my parents tragically removed the original orange shag carpet. No one would build a house like that anymore, and probably if my folks ever sold it someone would replace it with something more modern which would then look even worse 10 years later. By contrast, in Europe I hear the only way to tell the difference between a building that's 10 and one that's 1000 years old is how big of a crap clogs up the plumbing. Maybe someone here can confirm that?
Title: Re: Please explain to me the logic behind US building codes
Post by: pecenipicek on October 01, 2015, 01:51:57 am
By contrast, in Europe I hear the only way to tell the difference between a building that's 10 and one that's 1000 years old is how big of a crap clogs up the plumbing. Maybe someone here can confirm that?
Idk for the rest of europe, i can tell you croatia for example is not like that. While i was in ireland 3 years ago however, it seemed to be so. the house i was housed in had this horrible thing where the plumbing from the toilets goes on the outside of the walls which kinda horrifies me. Even on new houses... I have no clue why this is so. Supposedly because they dont get freezing temps much...
Title: Re: Please explain to me the logic behind US building codes
Post by: FlamingCobra on October 03, 2015, 06:18:18 pm
Please explain to me the logic behind being one of the only 3 nations in the world that still does not use the metric system.

Please explain to me the logic behind  being one of the only 3 nations in the world that does not require paid maternity leave by law.
Title: Re: Please explain to me the logic behind US building codes
Post by: Scotty on October 03, 2015, 09:55:58 pm
Please explain to me how either of those two things are related to this topic.
Title: Re: Please explain to me the logic behind US building codes
Post by: Mars on October 03, 2015, 10:19:23 pm
Metric system is prevalent in the US, but so is imperial. Most things I have to deal with in my day to day life as a property manager have both metric and imperial bolts for example. It's not exactly as simple as it could be, but the honest truth is that it's not really a big deal to have most things be a combination of the two when tools, directions, and conversions between the two systems are readily available and not really that expensive. It's approximately as expensive to have both torx and hex drivers for example; the world could decide on one sure, but frankly they both get the job done and both are in things that will be around for the next twenty years, so insisting that we standardize doesn't really accomplish anything.

I strongly suspect that there are a surprising number of imperial screws in Europe and Asia that no one really notices.
Title: Re: Please explain to me the logic behind US building codes
Post by: qwadtep on October 08, 2015, 03:56:35 am
As an aside:

I just watched the MythBusters episode where they test if the doorframe is the safest place to be during an earthquake. They concluded that while that was true for old-style masonry buildings which don't adhere to current US Building Code (since the doorframe was usually reinforced with rebar), it actually wasn't the safest place to be in an all-wood house built to code*; instead, the "drop, cover, and hold on" tactic of getting beneath a sturdy desk or table is preferable.

Clearly the solution is to hide under a desk under a doorframe. You'll actually come out of the experience more alive than before.
Title: Re: Please explain to me the logic behind US building codes
Post by: Sandwich on October 08, 2015, 03:43:52 pm
Maybe Ikea should release a line of furniture specifically for California where the desks could be topped with doorframes instead of those silly shelves!
Title: Re: Please explain to me the logic behind US building codes
Post by: MP-Ryan on October 11, 2015, 10:11:01 pm
Wood construction vs masonry, particularly as compared to UK, is easy to explain.

In North America, good quality wood in the necessary cuts is ubiquitous and cheap. Concrete, stone, and brick are not. Wood is also considerably faster and easier to work with.  Even commercial construction where wood is less common use poured concrete over masonry.

North America also features much larger average sized homes, which emphasizes the above factors

As it happens, my house has steel studs in the basement, but the remainder of the framing is wood, while the entire foundation is solid concrete.
Title: Re: Please explain to me the logic behind US building codes
Post by: Sandwich on October 12, 2015, 03:22:57 am
I wonder how much of the "wood is plentiful and inexpensive" reason is due to it being the primary building material. Of course it's cheap - there's a tremendous amount of infrastructure dedicated towards making sure that it is cheap to harvest, process, and transport.
Title: Re: Please explain to me the logic behind US building codes
Post by: z64555 on October 12, 2015, 03:35:44 am
I wonder if it's more about demolishing and less harmful debris from severe storms like a hurricane? Not that a 6' x 6' x 8' beam of wood traveling at 120mph isn't dangerous...
Title: Re: Please explain to me the logic behind US building codes
Post by: WeatherOp on October 12, 2015, 12:50:18 pm
In a tornado, CMU and brick houses are actually lower than wood houses in a good percentage of the time as far as the EF scale is concerned. It is mostly due to many of the brick houses are unanchored and mostly just the outside which adds a ton of weight. I remember when an EF3 tornado hit outside of Birmingham. A three story brick house was blew away and everyone was shocked when the tornado was rated EF3. Turns out the house just blew over from the weight of the brick. Now a well anchored brick house on the other hand is no doubt stronger.
Title: Re: Please explain to me the logic behind US building codes
Post by: Phantom Hoover on October 12, 2015, 02:07:13 pm
I wonder how much of the "wood is plentiful and inexpensive" reason is due to it being the primary building material. Of course it's cheap - there's a tremendous amount of infrastructure dedicated towards making sure that it is cheap to harvest, process, and transport.

I mean, Europe has been densely populated for a very long time. There isn't that much forest left for lumber. I imagine the same is even more true of Israel. America still has ****loads of forests, I can believe that they use wood in houses because it's just much easier to get.
Title: Re: Please explain to me the logic behind US building codes
Post by: NGTM-1R on October 12, 2015, 04:59:21 pm
I wonder if it's more about demolishing and less harmful debris from severe storms like a hurricane? Not that a 6' x 6' x 8' beam of wood traveling at 120mph isn't dangerous...

It's actually less safe against earthquakes. Brick or masonry will essentially explode at the first story.
Title: Re: Please explain to me the logic behind US building codes
Post by: MP-Ryan on October 12, 2015, 06:01:23 pm
I wonder how much of the "wood is plentiful and inexpensive" reason is due to it being the primary building material. Of course it's cheap - there's a tremendous amount of infrastructure dedicated towards making sure that it is cheap to harvest, process, and transport.

While it's true there's a large lumber industry in North America for processing, part of what I suspect you and the Europeans are missing is the sheer size of the landmass and forest here.  Canada and the US are the second and third, respectively, largest countries in terms of landmass.  The boreal forest in northern Alberta alone (i.e. 1/3 to 1/2 of one province) is roughly twice the size of the UK, and somewhere between 50 and 100 times the size of the country of Israel. And we harvest but a tiny fraction of it in the lumber industry.  Neighboring British Columbia has an even larger industry, and the states to the south (Washington, Idaho, Montana) all have sizeable lumber industries as well.  This is but a small corner of the continent, ignoring the huge lumber industries on the eastern side.

While there is a lot of rock here too, there's no question that the massive forests - and rivers on which to transport the lumber - made far more sense than other building materials, and the timber industry has been a key resource since the continent was settled by Europeans.

On the issue of building codes and durability, there's also the matter of location.  Homes built in the southern US are much less sturdy in build quality than their comparators as you move north.  Part of the reason why many of those areas are devastated by natural disasters is that the structures themselves are less solidly built because they rarely need to withstand serious elements.  That said, central America uses a lot of masonry/block construction, and storms hit them way harder than the southern US; the structures are built of solid materials, but they're flimsily constructed.
Title: Re: Please explain to me the logic behind US building codes
Post by: swashmebuckle on October 13, 2015, 01:10:56 am
Next time God or climate change floods the planet everyone in a wooden house will have a nice boat while everyone in a brick house will have a nice reef. Brick houses do have a cool theme song though.
Title: Re: Please explain to me the logic behind US building codes
Post by: karajorma on October 13, 2015, 01:44:09 am
I'm more worried about the big bad wolf than the possibility of my house not turning into a boat. :p
Title: Re: Please explain to me the logic behind US building codes
Post by: Sandwich on October 13, 2015, 03:22:28 am
Ok, so I can get the whole "wood is plentiful" argument, but seriously? Stone is just as plentiful, somewhat less useful than wood is in its pre-harvested state (bedrock vs trees), and vastly more fire-resistant. That's what this thread is about, remember - the fire susceptibility of wooden houses and the hundreds of thousands of deaths they have caused.
Title: Re: Please explain to me the logic behind US building codes
Post by: WeatherOp on October 13, 2015, 11:11:37 am

On the issue of building codes and durability, there's also the matter of location.  Homes built in the southern US are much less sturdy in build quality than their comparators as you move north.  Part of the reason why many of those areas are devastated by natural disasters is that the structures themselves are less solidly built because they rarely need to withstand serious elements.  That said, central America uses a lot of masonry/block construction, and storms hit them way harder than the southern US; the structures are built of solid materials, but they're flimsily constructed.

I don't know if that is completely true. Not that I believe that southern buildings codes are good, but more or US codes in general are lacking. For instance in Joplin, MO after the tornado they found that something like 80% of the houses would have been destroyed by 100mph winds. Then in Moore, OK '13, only a couple of houses were strong enough to receive the EF5 rating and I think the elementary school collapse was only awarded EF2 damage from bad construction.

Houses in the US in general are poor. I watched them build a big house last year and while it had anchor bolting, it still looked cheaply built.  The reason why the southern states have more issues is they just generally have more natural disasters.
Title: Re: Please explain to me the logic behind US building codes
Post by: Mongoose on October 14, 2015, 12:03:36 am
Ok, so I can get the whole "wood is plentiful" argument, but seriously? Stone is just as plentiful, somewhat less useful than wood is in its pre-harvested state (bedrock vs trees), and vastly more fire-resistant. That's what this thread is about, remember - the fire susceptibility of wooden houses and the hundreds of thousands of deaths they have caused.
Just as plentiful (in a sense: again, huge forests are all over the damn place in North America), but far more labor-intensive to actually obtain, substantially heavier and thus more costly to transport, and requiring of much more construction skill to properly build with.  And while fire resistance is a concern, unless you're living in a literal castle or a concrete slab, the interior of your stone house is still going to contain a good deal of wood and drywall and what have you.  Every night on the local news I see video of row home fires in Philadelphia, and those are all primarily brick construction.  Plus, given very basic safety precautions, house fires should not be fatal events I haven't looked up any data on it, but just based on news reports, the vast majority of house fire fatalities seem to occur when there aren't functioning smoke detectors in the residence.
Title: Re: Please explain to me the logic behind US building codes
Post by: Polpolion on October 14, 2015, 08:44:35 pm
I just watched the MythBusters episode where they test if the doorframe is the safest place to be during an earthquake. They concluded that while that was true for old-style masonry buildings which don't adhere to current US Building Code (since the doorframe was usually reinforced with rebar), it actually wasn't the safest place to be in an all-wood house built to code*; instead, the "drop, cover, and hold on" tactic of getting beneath a sturdy desk or table is preferable.

* Their "excuse" about it not being safe was that the mannekin mounted in the doorframe kept on getting "spanked" by the door swinging back and forth, and eventually fell over. Please.

But fine, whatever - the issue I want to bring up is entirely different. I understood from that episode that US Building Code mandates homes be constructed out of wood, not masonry, to... better withstand earthquakes (? Perhaps other reasons as well?), right? Ok, so let's see how many people have died in US earthquakes over the years (http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/states/us_deaths.php). Going back to 1812, we have a grand total of 4,032 deaths in 46 quakes over 202 years (mostly in California, too - yikes!).

So wooden homes withstand earthquakes far better than masonry, as MythBusters confirmed beyond any doubt. However, do you see the glaring problem with this concept yet?

Wood catches fire. Masonry doesn't catch fire. Hmm.... how many deaths in the US are due to house fires over the years (http://www.nfpa.org/research/reports-and-statistics/fires-by-property-type/residential/home-fires)? Well, the data I found only goes back to 1977, not 1812, so take that into consideration when I reveal that in the mere 36 years the table covers, there have been over 140 THOUSAND deaths from house fires. :eek2:

Ok, so your turn: please explain to me the logic in mandating that homes be built from flammable wood instead of fire-proof masonry.

Can you post a link to the "US Building Code" you're referring to? I can't find it and I have a hunch that it doesn't exist.
Title: Re: Please explain to me the logic behind US building codes
Post by: Scourge of Ages on October 14, 2015, 10:34:02 pm
Can you post a link to the "US Building Code" you're referring to? I can't find it and I have a hunch that it doesn't exist.

I believe this should do it: https://law.resource.org/pub/us/code/bsc.ca.gov/gov.ca.bsc.2010.02.1.html#p398
2010 California Building Code, section 1126A

I don't think any US building codes require the use of any particular material, just require that whichever material used is used in such a way that the Code is satisfied, ie. that your structure is "safe". That California code does not require that a standard door frame be reinforced to withstand an earthquake (more than the rest of the structure), so most door frames are build to hold doors, and nothing else.

The old-style adobe houses where the door frames are the only things still standing after an earthquake, are probably not up to code, at least the modern building codes (I assume). This article from earthquakecountry.info speaks about that: http://earthquakecountry.info/dropcoverholdon/

RE: fires and building with wood: Modern American buildings are not generally built to last a very long time. Cost is a much larger factor in buying a home than is durability. So as long as a house is up to code, most people are satisfied with their dwellings.

The building codes are designed to ensure a minimum quality of safety. "Safety", in this case means just that you'll probably escape the structure alive. Houses are built like cars here: They do their job, and if there's an accident, the priority is on protecting the occupant at the cost of the thing.
Title: Re: Please explain to me the logic behind US building codes
Post by: Polpolion on October 15, 2015, 06:52:47 am
And the other 49 states? Obviously building codes exist in the US but there's no reason for the federal government to need to regulate construction like this, and "US Building Code" sounds like some ludicrous straw man made up because you're too lazy to do any real research before you start criticizing.
Title: Re: Please explain to me the logic behind US building codes
Post by: Sandwich on October 15, 2015, 08:04:27 pm
And the other 49 states? Obviously building codes exist in the US but there's no reason for the federal government to need to regulate construction like this, and "US Building Code" sounds like some ludicrous straw man made up because you're too lazy to do any real research before you start criticizing.

I'm sorry, did I (or anyone else, for that matter) attack you personally or something? Did you wake up on the wrong side of the bed? What's with the vitriol? Reel it in. I saw an episode of what I gather most people consider to be a fairly reliable, factual source of information, and came to ask my friends here in the community if there was an explanation for the potential flaw I noticed. I didn't start calling people names, nor did I claim that I had done extensive research.

If you have an issue with simple questions such as these, I suggest you take your issues elsewhere.
Title: Re: Please explain to me the logic behind US building codes
Post by: Polpolion on October 15, 2015, 10:37:12 pm
I'm sorry, did I (or anyone else, for that matter) attack you personally or something? Did you wake up on the wrong side of the bed? What's with the vitriol? Reel it in. I saw an episode of what I gather most people consider to be a fairly reliable, factual source of information, and came to ask my friends here in the community if there was an explanation for the potential flaw I noticed. I didn't start calling people names, nor did I claim that I had done extensive research.

If you have an issue with simple questions such as these, I suggest you take your issues elsewhere.

If we want an accurate, illuminating answer the question isn't as simple as it seems. Building codes written by regional agencies can't be prohibitively burdensome because geographically and economically you can't build the same way everywhere. Think about Rexton MI, San Jose CA, Chicago IL, and Washington DC. Each have their own quirks that make civil engineering quite a different beast. Heck, Paris is an even better example. In the first post the analysis of deaths is kind of glib, honestly. We don't know how Earth quake or fire deaths in the US relate to anything except each other. What would we expect the number of deaths to be if wood weren't the mandated building material? There is no doubt stone doesn't burn as well as wood, but the fact that wood isn't the mandated building material and that there are no US building codes makes explaining the logic somewhat futile.

On a personal note, for some reason this gnawed at me the same way Steam threads do. :p
Title: Re: Please explain to me the logic behind US building codes
Post by: Scourge of Ages on October 15, 2015, 10:43:18 pm
It's true that building codes vary from place to place. But the fact remains that the codes are there to specify a minimum degree of safety (and other things) to all structures. They don't generally specify that a building must be constructed of this or that, just that they be built in a way that is safe for that area.

The majority of earthquake deaths (in the US and places where building codes exist and are enforced) are actually due to falling objects or people falling and hitting objects, not so much buildings falling on them, except in very extreme quakes.
Title: Re: Please explain to me the logic behind US building codes
Post by: Sandwich on October 18, 2015, 11:16:37 am
Ok, so basically the reason a flammable material is used (building code or not) more frequently than a non-flammable one is purely economical? Ok, I get that. It sounds utterly idiotic when accompanied by the death tolls due to house fires, but hey, less expensive!
Title: Re: Please explain to me the logic behind US building codes
Post by: Phantom Hoover on October 18, 2015, 11:24:53 am
Are you sure stone houses are that much less vulnerable to fire? There are enough flammable fittings and furniture that a fire can still completely gut them, even if the structure remains standing.
Title: Re: Please explain to me the logic behind US building codes
Post by: Scotty on October 18, 2015, 11:28:29 am
Of course he's sure.  He started with an obviously biased viewpoint, stumbled across something that confirmed it while making a little bit of real sense, and taken it to heart as meaning his original impression was correct all along.
Title: Re: Please explain to me the logic behind US building codes
Post by: Sandwich on October 18, 2015, 11:52:39 am
No, I'm not sure... but I suspect a fire in one room of a stone/concrete house would be unlikely to spread to other rooms... or at the very least, be less likely to than it would in a wooden house.

EDIT: I composed the above before I saw Scotty's post. I composed the below after I saw it:

Dafuq's your problem? :wtf: How is this even remotely an issue to get worked up about (unless you had a friend or relative die in a house fire or earthquake, I guess)??
Title: Re: Please explain to me the logic behind US building codes
Post by: Phantom Hoover on October 18, 2015, 12:03:14 pm
IDK, maybe because you keep going on about what massive idiots the Americans are for building their houses out of wood and burning to death? It's annoying me, and I love a good American-bashing.
Title: Re: Please explain to me the logic behind US building codes
Post by: Sandwich on October 18, 2015, 01:07:37 pm
I'm American myself, I can bash us anytime I want! :p

More seriously though, I'm really just trying to find out why the decision was made to make most homes in the US out of flammable wood vs something else, and if anyone had ever officially taken a look at the death tolls from home fires and given serious thought to tossing out wood. Just amazement-fueled curiosity, really.
Title: Re: Please explain to me the logic behind US building codes
Post by: NGTM-1R on October 18, 2015, 01:19:47 pm
I'm American myself, I can bash us anytime I want! :p

More seriously though, I'm really just trying to find out why the decision was made to make most homes in the US out of flammable wood vs something else, and if anyone had ever officially taken a look at the death tolls from home fires and given serious thought to tossing out wood. Just amazement-fueled curiosity, really.

They have. It doesn't matter in most cases. You're having bizarre visions of the whole house going up in the flames but any fireman from North America can tell you that's not what happens in most house fires. The damage to the building is often extensive if the fire is left unchecked, but it's irrelevant to the death toll; people live or die based on the first two or four minutes of the fire, before the structural materials are involved in any major way.

Flammable carpet glue is more relevant to your survival than whether the house is wood-framed or masonry.
Title: Re: Please explain to me the logic behind US building codes
Post by: Sandwich on October 18, 2015, 01:56:20 pm
Interesting... I never thought of the carpet factor. There's virtually no such thing as wall to wall carpeting here in Israel - stone tile floors are the norm, with perhaps some strategically-placed Persian rugs in the salon.

I've tweeted a real life fireman (JSano from the Minecraft scene) about this thread and asked if he'd be able to chime in.
Title: Re: Please explain to me the logic behind US building codes
Post by: Blue Lion on October 19, 2015, 10:56:43 am
By the way, US fire statistics...

http://www.usfa.fema.gov/data/statistics/#tab-1

Title: Re: Please explain to me the logic behind US building codes
Post by: Sandwich on October 20, 2015, 07:45:51 pm
By the way, US fire statistics...

http://www.usfa.fema.gov/data/statistics/#tab-1



Exactly. In one single year (2003), the US had almost as many fire-related deaths (3,925) as it had earthquake deaths for the past 200+ years (4,032).

Economics or not, that just doesn't make sense to me.
Title: Re: Please explain to me the logic behind US building codes
Post by: Polpolion on October 20, 2015, 09:08:23 pm
In one single year (2003), the US had almost as many fire-related deaths (3,925) as it had earthquake deaths for the past 200+ years (4,032).

Economics or not, that just doesn't make sense to me.

You're comparing apples and oranges. I honestly don't think you can infer much of value by comparing those two statistics. 1) In 1810 the US census listed a population of less than 8 million. One hundred years later in 1910, 92 million. Comparing number of deaths alone in the past 40 years to the previous 160 is practically meaningless. 2) The majority of the US population does not live near (https://www.census.gov/dmd/www/pdf/512popdn.pdf) fault lines (http://earthquake.usgs.gov/hazards/qfaults/map/). You would not expect to see many earthquake deaths in proportion to total deaths. 3) Dangerous earthquakes just aren't all that (http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/states/us_deaths.php) common (http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/eqarchives/year/eqstats.php) (note SF 1906: fire). Earthquakes per se just don't kill a lot of people. 4) The most common causes of fires (heating, cooking, electricity, smoking, fires) are all much more common than earthquakes. You would expect to see many more fire deaths than earthquake deaths.
Title: Re: Please explain to me the logic behind US building codes
Post by: Mongoose on October 20, 2015, 11:06:46 pm
Not only that, but 4000 fire deaths out of a population of over 300 million is...what?  0.001%?  In that same year, almost 43,000 Americans died in automobile accidents, and even that is a tiny percentage of the population.  And according to the statistics I've seen, just having working smoke detectors in a house cuts the rate of fire fatalities in half.  It would be utter economic suicide to use a far more costly building material to prevent what is, in the grand scheme of things, a miniscule number out of all Americans that die in a given year.

And again, even if you build a masonry-framework house, much of the interior is going to still be flammable (see: the White House in the War of 1812).  Unless you're suggesting that the entire structure, interior walls and all, should all be stone, which is just crazy.
Title: Re: Please explain to me the logic behind US building codes
Post by: Phantom Hoover on October 21, 2015, 03:06:16 am
By the way, US fire statistics...

http://www.usfa.fema.gov/data/statistics/#tab-1



Exactly. In one single year (2003), the US had almost as many fire-related deaths (3,925) as it had earthquake deaths for the past 200+ years (4,032).

Economics or not, that just doesn't make sense to me.

Yeah OK but most, perhaps even all, of those deaths would still happen in stone houses.
Title: Re: Please explain to me the logic behind US building codes
Post by: NGTM-1R on October 21, 2015, 05:22:44 pm
Exactly. In one single year (2003), the US had almost as many fire-related deaths (3,925) as it had earthquake deaths for the past 200+ years (4,032).

Economics or not, that just doesn't make sense to me.

This is because you don't understand that people pass out from smoke and choke to death rather than, you know, actually burn to death, so the majority of those deaths happened before their immediate surroundings were on fire, much less the structural material of the building.

But hey, I already pointed that out once and you're still acting like this.

I mean, even just closing a wooden door would delay a fire entering a room in a wooden house by a minute or more; usually more than enough time to allow escape out a window in most rooms.
Title: Re: Please explain to me the logic behind US building codes
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on October 22, 2015, 01:57:09 am
I mean, even just closing a wooden door would delay a fire entering a room in a wooden house by a minute or more; usually more than enough time to allow escape out a window in most rooms.
By code, fire-rated doors are rated for at least 20 minutes. Yes, there are wooden fire-rated doors.
Title: Re: Please explain to me the logic behind US building codes
Post by: Dragon on October 22, 2015, 08:33:53 am
It's all a matter of properly treating the wood. Impregnated wood is surprisingly non-flammable, by the time it does catch on fire everyone inside would be either dead or evacuated already. Fire mostly spreads through furniture (usually wood or plastic, both flammable), cloth, carpets (if present) and other interior fittings. Flats in huge concrete blocks that make up most of Poland's housing infrastructure can catch on fire just the same. I haven't seen a house (outside of military settings, that is) that would be just stone/concrete and metal. That would be pretty non-flammable, but not exactly homely. The amount of plastics we use is staggering, and most of those not only burn, they also do so in a very dirty way that produces a lot of poisonous smoke.