Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Sandwich on October 13, 2015, 03:12:56 am
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In the past few weeks there have been dozens of terror attacks by Palestinian and by Israeli Arabs - as well as a couple retaliatory attacks by Jewish terrorists against Arabs. Most days see at least 3 attacks or so. Most of the attacks have been stabbings with any implement that would cause damage - I just read last night that one of the weapons was a vegetable peeler. :wtf:
My wife just woke me up a few minutes ago in tears, with the news that in the neighborhood just east of us there was a shooting where 8 people were seriously injured.
There's so much to say about this situation I don't know where to begin, but as usual whenever the Crazyometer around here hits 11, I felt like posting and letting you all know.
Local news sources (in English):
www.ynetnews.com
www.timesofisrael.com
www.jpost.com (warning: ad-heavy site is ad-heavy)
Map of attacks (not just recent ones though):
http://mapme.com/israel-terrorist-attacks
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Somethings tells me that this will be yet another "Bringing guns to a knifefight" escalation.
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Nothing I can really say that's not a given (stay safe, hope you and family are okay), but thanks for letting us know your OK and keep us posted.
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Thats pretty ****ty, hope you and your loved ones continue to stay safe man
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Somethings tells me that this will be yet another "Bringing guns to a knifefight" escalation.
? The attack in the neighborhood near me was a combo shooting-stabbing, apparently.
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Somethings tells me that this will be yet another "Bringing guns to a knifefight" escalation.
? The attack in the neighborhood near me was a combo shooting-stabbing, apparently.
I'm more referring to the snowballing effect that these things tend to have, with incidents escalating into all out war, just like they have in the past years.
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I'm more referring to the snowballing effect that these things tend to have, with incidents escalating into all out war, just like they have in the past years.
Ahh, yes, quite possible. :blah:
Here's a crowdsourced map of the attacks: http://mapme.com/israel-terrorist-attacks
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Hi Sandwich. I did not know you lived in Israel. Have you seen the new checkpoints being built?
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Just do your best to stay safe, I've only been hearing dribs and drabs of reports on the attacks as, I guess what is 'mainstream' media hasn't reported any here (that I am aware of - Australia)
:(
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You probably already heard of this one Sandwich.
http://www.timesofisrael.com/terrorist-stabs-woman-70-outside-jerusalem-bus-station/
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http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/15/middleeast/israel-palestinian-tensions/
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Hi Sandwich. I did not know you lived in Israel. Have you seen the new checkpoints being built?
Jerusalem, Israel, yup. I haven't seen the new checkpoints, no, but I rarely travel outside the city (no driver's license).
You probably already heard of this one Sandwich.
http://www.timesofisrael.com/terrorist-stabs-woman-70-outside-jerusalem-bus-station/
Yes, of course. Hate to say it but that was just one of dozens. The latest is that the child terrorist that Mahmoud Abbas has been claiming Israel "executed" is alive and recovering in an Israeli hospital. :rolleyes: Don't believe the lies, people.
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http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/15/middleeast/israel-palestinian-tensions/
Something that's probably not common knowledge WRT the last picture of that article's slideshow:
(http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnnnext/dam/assets/151014114256-israeli-soldiers-aim-oct12-super-169.jpg)
Caption: "Israeli soldiers aim their weapons toward Palestinian protesters during clashes in Bethlehem on October 12."
See those long, silencer-like extensions to the M16 rifles? Those are attachments for firing non-lethal (except at point-blank-ish range) rubber bullets. The rubber bullets come in a "tampon" (yes, that's what they're called) pack of 4 rubber cylinders wrapped in a thin plastic packaging. They're inserted into those extensions, and a special bullet without a projectile, similar to a blank, is used to fire them off. Propelling the 4 cylindrical rubber bullets with a single cartridge of gunpowder is what reduces the velocity of the projectiles and - along with the thick rubberized coating and non-aerodynamic shape - results in a non-lethal weapon.
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nonless-lethal weapon.
Guns should never be considered "non lethal", not even when filled with beanbags or blanks.
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It's the friggin' grenade launcher I'd be more worried about (though admittedly, it's probably loaded with tear gas). :) It doesn't change the fact that the soldiers aren't exactly gentle with the protesters. They aren't shooting into the crowd with live rounds like Polish Milicja Obywatelska used to do 24 years ago (unless, that is, the Israeli "less than lethal" definition still includes the .22 round), but stuff that's happening is still far from what I'd call "civilized". Not that the Arabs are any better.
BTW, on that map, I noticed that there was an attack on a gay pride parade in Jerusalem (by an "ultra-orthodox" man, so probably Jewish, but it isn't stated), on July 30th. Freedom of sexuality is nice and all, but I think it's a bad time to paint a great big target on yourself for both fanatic groups...
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nonless-lethal weapon.
Was going to make that correction myself. Not that it makes much difference, Israel would be getting treated the same if they were using full metal jacketed depleted uranium ammo.
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EDIT: Wups wrong thread.
If Israelis didnt want to deal with this stuff they should have decided to live elsewhere!
*drives off*
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nonless-lethal weapon.
Was going to make that correction myself. Not that it makes much difference, Israel would be getting treated the same if they were using full metal jacketed depleted uranium ammo.
What if they were using full uranium jackated depleted uranium ammo?
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Was going to make that correction myself. Not that it makes much difference, Israel would be getting treated the same if they were using full metal jacketed depleted uranium ammo.
Well, at least the police themselves are not killing protesters. The Israeli citizens, however, are a different story. And the government isn't exactly telling them to stand down and stop the bloodshed.
Also, I wonder who had the bright idea to demolish houses of the attackers? If there's one way to make Palestinians feel unwelcome, it's that. It's bad enough that Israel essentially flips them off with their "Jewish State" ideology. Now they're literally destroying their homes. I wonder how long will it be until someone proposes sending them to "work camps". To think that Jews were the oppressed ones so recently...
What I find really disgusting is that Israel is behaving like this land was theirs by some divine right and other people who were there before them were pest (from what I've heard from people that actually went there, many actually believe this "Holy Land" BS). They act like barbarians from Biblical times, but try (rather poorly) to disguise themselves as a 1st world country. Israel is no "ancestral homeland" of theirs, they're all immigrants who essentially got sent there by the British. Until that attitude changes, there will be no peace, only more atrocities.
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well, at this point there really are not that many people on the planet who were anywhere before the state of Israel existed.
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Well, aren't the Palestinians immigrants who got kicked out of Jordan?
http://middleeast.about.com/od/jordan/a/jordan-black-september.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September_in_Jordan
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-harris/palestinians-and-double-s_b_3825379.html
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Not really. It is true many Palestinians lived in Jordan, but Israel took over a fair bit of Jordanian land early on (indeed, I often wondered why can't they just hand off the West Bank to Jordan and let the king sort it out. The locals would surely feel better as Jordanians). Before Israel, pretty much the whole territory it now takes up was called "Mandatory Palestine" and was a British territory (or "mandate"). Jordanian did kick out the PLO, but they ended up in Lebanon as well. Palestinians are the original Arabian inhabitants of the region, not only parts.
well, at this point there really are not that many people on the planet who were anywhere before the state of Israel existed.
Not really. The state of Israel is only 66 years old. There are quite a few people older than that on the planet. It's still very well a living memory. It is certainly not a new country anymore, but it's still fairly young. Not that the nearby states are that much older (Jordan gained independence in 1923), but for most Israelis, their grandparents were born in another country, while Arabs' grandfathers and great-grandfathers were born there as well, just under Ottoman boot.
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If you start going on historical claims, I've already explained once a while back how that results in you having to give Israel back.....to the Spanish.
If you don't remember it basically dates back to them being descendants of the Carthaginians and therefore the Phoenicians who were themselves Caanites. Therefore even by the Bible their claim pre-dates the Jews.
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Not to rain on your historical who's-older-than-whom parade, but how does any of that give people the right to go out and stab and shoot and murder civilians??
(note that I fully include those few recent Jewish "price-tag" vengeance attacks, as well as that Jewish ultra-orthodox guy who attacked the gay pride parade; much as I may deplore the gay's apparent need to flaunt their sexual orientation in everybody's faces, that certainly doesn't mean they should be assaulted or attacked)
The immediate cause of the current escalation are the lies being spewed by the various Muslim clerics, news sources, and the Palestinian leadership. Lies that Israel is changing the "status quo" on the Temple Mount (a status quo which, by the way, forbids Jews from praying on the Temple Mount). Lies that Jews are apes and pigs and what have you. And most recently, lies that Israel "executed" this 13-year-old terrorist (http://www.timesofisrael.com/terrorist-teen-executed-by-israel-confesses-to-attack/):
Doesn't look very executed to me, but what do I know. Perhaps its Photoshopped.
By the way, this is the same kind of double-standards that the world dumped on Israel's head last summer (http://www.unwatch.org/watch-ap-grills-state-department-for-double-standards-against-israel-in-light-of-afghan-bombing/), during the Gaza war.
(btw, is that Vin Diesel asking those quetions?)
Holding Israel accountable to an impossibly high standard that they themselves cannot even attain in a similar situation, and at the same time, ignoring the blatant violations of said standard by other nations in the region (http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2015/09/21/yemen-strikes-israel-and-double-standards-in-the-middle-east/). Are the Muslims and/or Arabs so primitive and/or uncivilized in your eyes that you simply don't expectdemand the same standards from them as you do from Israel?
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Not to rain on your historical who's-older-than-whom parade, but how does any of that give people the right to go out and stab and shoot and murder civilians??
It doesn't. My point was that historical claims over who owns the land are idiotic bull**** that result in a ridiculous winner and anyone who argues them on either side should shut the **** up and deal with the actual issue going on.
Basically, let's make it official. Next person to make a historical claim to the land gets thrown out of this thread.
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well, they are oppressed you see, that means they are allowed to do anything with impunity and can do no wrong. because the more oppressed you are the better a minority you are.
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Basically, let's make it official. Next person to make a historical claim to the land gets thrown out of this thread.
Does this count? :P (https://youtu.be/8tIdCsMufIY)
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Are the Muslims and/or Arabs so primitive and/or uncivilized in your eyes that you simply don't expectdemand the same standards from them as you do from Israel?
Yes.
In addition to that, my opinion is that there will be no peace until this whole area is divided based on current ethnic composition, Kosovo style, and interaction between Arabs and Israelis will be limited. History proves that you cannot live together peacefully. Good fences make good neighbours.
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Exactly. They're actually both equally uncivilized, but it's the Israelis that get weapons and financial assistance from the US and NATO. They have nukes, modern weapons and superior technology. Therefore, the Israelis and their government need to be held to a higher standard. They may act like a 3rd world country at times, but are always armed like a 1st world one.
Dividing the region Kosovo-style needs to happen, whether Israelis like it or not. They need a strong king (democracy was tried in PA and look where it ended up), their own borders, their own laws and their own misfortunes. It doesn't matter if it isn't better than what they have now, what matters is that it needs to be theirs. Israel is someone else's country and it's big on not letting Arabs forget that. Even having Jordan annex Palestine would be better than what we have now (Jordan being pretty level-headed, Arab and with strong government).
Basically, let's make it official. Next person to make a historical claim to the land gets thrown out of this thread.
Says someone not from a country that spent its recent history fighting for its national identity. This stuff matters, there's a clear distinction between a claim that is 60 years old and one that is 600 years old. Elsewhere in the world (in a certain 2nd world country in the eastern Europe), property taken during WWII and after is often being returned to its original owners or their descendants. Israel is doing the very same thing Nazis and Commies used to. You can't just move people around against their will and expect them not to complain.
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They need a strong king
c'mon mate you were doing such a good job of not saying dumb ****
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I think Jordan taking over most of the territory would be a good move honestly.
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From what I understand, this is all directly attributable to the head of the PA, Mahmoud Abbas, spreading the message that they need to do this to... stop the Israelis from taking the temple mount? Some dumb **** in that direction.
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http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/17/world/middleeast/palestinians-israel-west-bank-violence.html
well, that's certainly going to help settle things down.
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Good fences make good neighbours.
Israel tried that, google "Apartheid Wall"
Therefore, the Israelis and their government need to be held to a higher standard. They may act like a 3rd world country at times, but are always armed like a 1st world one.
because people just become immune to getting upset that their kids are being murdered because they can wipe out the killers. having this double standard is only going to make the situation worse. Palestine doesn't get the blood washed off their hands because they are brown any more than Israel does because they are rich.
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Israel tried that, google "Apartheid Wall"
Googled it, looks like it is an effective solution. I am growing increasingly convinced that a comprehensive fence system could be one way to solve this crisis once and for all. Of course, it would probably have to follow ethnic lines, too. And it would inevitably anger some people on both sides of this conflict because of perceived loss of land. But oh well, you can never please everyone..
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you'd think so, but I remember when that went up and everyone was attacking them for it.
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Israel tried that, google "Apartheid Wall"
Googled it, looks like it is an effective solution. I am growing increasingly convinced that a comprehensive fence system could be one way to solve this crisis once and for all. Of course, it would probably have to follow ethnic lines, too. And it would inevitably anger some people on both sides of this conflict because of perceived loss of land. But oh well, you can never please everyone..
So a place becomes yours when you put your people on it and then build a fence around it. I can see why the US would be nervous about saying that's not the case.
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just to be clear, is it your position that Israel is not Israel's place?
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you'd think so, but I remember when that went up and everyone was attacking them for it.
Something something THE WALL WAS BUILD INSIDE PALESTENIAN TERRITORY (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6a/West_Bank_%26_Gaza_Map_2007_%28Settlements%29.png) something something.
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which is the reason why people call it the Apartheid Wall, and not the Landgrab Wall.
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are you going to rathole into semantics about exactly how israel were screwing the palestinians over
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Sandwich. Have you heard of Rabbi Yehuda Glick? Here is his story:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cs4n0ZxyWyg
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Exactly. They're actually both equally uncivilized, but it's the Israelis that get weapons and financial assistance from the US and NATO. They have nukes, modern weapons and superior technology. Therefore, the Israelis and their government need to be held to a higher standard. They may act like a 3rd world country at times, but are always armed like a 1st world one.
Wait, what? First of all, have you ever been to Israel that you speak of it from a position of such absolute knowledge? Second of all, whether you have or not, on what exactly are you basing your claim that Israel is "equally [as] uncivilized" as the Palestinians - or heck, vice versa? Thirdly, not having nukes, modern weapons, and superior technology is NOT an excuse to go on a murdering spree.
This stuff matters, there's a clear distinction between a claim that is 60 years old and one that is 600 years old. Elsewhere in the world (in a certain 2nd world country in the eastern Europe), property taken during WWII and after is often being returned to its original owners or their descendants. Israel is doing the very same thing Nazis and Commies used to. You can't just move people around against their will and expect them not to complain.
Wait, now I'm confused. You're saying that there is a difference between a newer claim and an older claim, and thus you're supporting Israel and the Jews being in their ancient homeland. I thought you were anti-Israel? :confused:
which is the reason why people call it the Apartheid Wall, and not the Landgrab Wall.
are you going to rathole into semantics about exactly how israel were screwing the palestinians over
Please don't bring up why the wall was built in the first place (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_suicide_attacks#2000s) - wouldn't want it to seem logical, now would we? Especially don't bring up its effectiveness at accomplishing its task (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_West_Bank_barrier):
The Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs and the Israel Security Agency report that in 2002, there were 452 fatalities from terrorist attacks. Before the completion of the first continuous segment (July 2003) from the beginning of the Second Intifada, 73 Palestinian suicide bombings were carried out from the West Bank, killing 293 Israelis and injuring over 1,900. After the completion of the first continuous segment through the end of 2006, there were only 12 attacks based in the West Bank, killing 64 people and wounding 445. Terrorist attacks declined in 2007 and 2008 to 9 in 2010.
So they blow us up, and we build a wall to stop them - and we're the ones screwing them over??
Sandwich. Have you heard of Rabbi Yehuda Glick? Here is his story:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cs4n0ZxyWyg
I remember the news reports, sure, but I'd never seen any interviews with him (don't have a TV here) - thanks. I'm extremely familiar with that location where he was shot - the intersection you see at 3:03 is one my bus goes through on my way to work.
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just to be clear, is it your position that Israel is not Israel's place?
It's my position that it wasn't but it's way too late to do anything about it now. I think the situation will just drag on forever as a constant generator of human suffering.
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Please don't bring up why the wall was built in the first place (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_suicide_attacks#2000s) - wouldn't want it to seem logical, now would we? Especially don't bring up its effectiveness at accomplishing its task (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_West_Bank_barrier):
The Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs and the Israel Security Agency report that in 2002, there were 452 fatalities from terrorist attacks. Before the completion of the first continuous segment (July 2003) from the beginning of the Second Intifada, 73 Palestinian suicide bombings were carried out from the West Bank, killing 293 Israelis and injuring over 1,900. After the completion of the first continuous segment through the end of 2006, there were only 12 attacks based in the West Bank, killing 64 people and wounding 445. Terrorist attacks declined in 2007 and 2008 to 9 in 2010.
So they blow us up, and we build a wall to stop them - and we're the ones screwing them over??
Yeah, kinda (http://israelipalestinian.procon.org/files/IsraeliFenceWall2011.gif).
I mean, I understand the purpose of border defenses. If a wall stops bombers, more power to you.
But why does that have to go trough palestenian territory, instead of sticking to the west of the 1967 lines? Why does it have to be built in such a way that it also protects the jewish settlers inside palestenian territory whose presence is in violation of the geneva conventions, which Israel signed? Why does it have to be built in a way that it seperates 240,000 palestenians from their relatives east of the wall?
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Wait, now I'm confused. You're saying that there is a difference between a newer claim and an older claim, and thus you're supporting Israel and the Jews being in their ancient homeland. I thought you were anti-Israel? :confused:
Dont know why you are confused, it is really simple. It does not matter what happened thousand+ years ago, that is ancient history. But it does matter what happened in living memory, last 100 years.
Any land where Jews were the minority in 1950s and now is part of Israel, is stolen land. In a just world, Jewish settlers would be kicked out of this land and it would be returned to Palestinians.
But we dont live in a just world, we live in a world where might makes right, so that is probably not going to happen. The second best solution is to fence off based on ethnic lines and wait few hundred years, until the rightful anger of displaced Palestinians dies down.
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So if Israel holds onto it for another 50 years it'll be all fine then? I mean I can argue either side of it, but that's just because neither side is particularly righteous.
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Yeah, kinda (http://israelipalestinian.procon.org/files/IsraeliFenceWall2011.gif).
I mean, I understand the purpose of border defenses. If a wall stops bombers, more power to you.
But why does that have to go trough palestenian territory, instead of sticking to the west of the 1967 lines? Why does it have to be built in such a way that it also protects the jewish settlers inside palestenian territory whose presence is in violation of the geneva conventions, which Israel signed? Why does it have to be built in a way that it seperates 240,000 palestenians from their relatives east of the wall?
Again this assumption that the West Bank is Palestinian territory and that the 1967 lines are relevant somehow to the argument at hand. Passive defensive measures must be placed between the aggressor and the intended victims to be effective. Palestinian homicide/suicide bombers were coming from Palestinian villages and cities to attack, terrorize, and murder Jews. Therefore, the fence+wall - which is not a national border of any sort - was erected to protect Israeli civilians from the Palestinian suicide bombers. It was not erected to defend only those Israelis living west of the Green Line. It was also not erected with concern given to the placement of various Palestinian relatives... heck, if family was that important to them, perhaps they should have tried to stop their sons and daughters from committing suicide with the goal of murdering innocent and random Israeli civilians?
Dont know why you are confused, it is really simple. It does not matter what happened thousand+ years ago, that is ancient history. But it does matter what happened in living memory, last 100 years.
Any land where Jews were the minority in 1950s and now is part of Israel, is stolen land. In a just world, Jewish settlers would be kicked out of this land and it would be returned to Palestinians.
:wtf: History doesn't stop being irrelevant just because the people who lived through it have since died, or some other arbitrary date line you may come up with. On the contrary:
(http://image.slidesharecdn.com/stratanysept2011final-110926230234-phpapp02/95/first-firster-firstest-three-lessons-from-history-on-information-overload-3-728.jpg?cb=1317078799)
One of the things the Jewish people have learned quite well throughout history is that when someone threatens to wipe you off the face of the earth - listen to them, they're too often serious. This is why we're perplexed at the world's narrow focus on the Palestinian narrative of their "stolen homeland", while simultaneously ignoring the strident calls for the murder of every Jew on the planet, from every strata of Palestinian society. This is why Netanyahu has been so adamantly focused on fighting against this terrible Iranian nuclear deal - as the mullahs and ayatollahs of Iran have repeatedly called for Israel's annihilation over the years.
Anyway, back to the issue of the West Bank... there's a few videos (and rebuttals to those videos, and rebuttals to the rebuttals...) that are relevant to the situation. Let's watch them.
#1: First video, by Danny Ayalon:
#2: Rebuttal to #1, by a couple of Palestinian ladies:
#3: Independant rebuttal to #2, linked to by #4:
#4: Danny Ayalon refutes one remaining point from #2:
Anyway, how'd we get off on this tangent to begin with? This thread is about the current wave of Palestinian terror (mostly stabbings, but also some shootings and rock-throwings), and y'all's attempts to figure out how to justify murder.
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Yeah, kinda (http://israelipalestinian.procon.org/files/IsraeliFenceWall2011.gif).
I mean, I understand the purpose of border defenses. If a wall stops bombers, more power to you.
But why does that have to go trough palestenian territory, instead of sticking to the west of the 1967 lines? Why does it have to be built in such a way that it also protects the jewish settlers inside palestenian territory whose presence is in violation of the geneva conventions, which Israel signed? Why does it have to be built in a way that it seperates 240,000 palestenians from their relatives east of the wall?
Again this assumption that the West Bank is Palestinian territory and that the 1967 lines are relevant somehow to the argument at hand. Passive defensive measures must be placed between the aggressor and the intended victims to be effective. Palestinian homicide/suicide bombers were coming from Palestinian villages and cities to attack, terrorize, and murder Jews. Therefore, the fence+wall - which is not a national border of any sort - was erected to protect Israeli civilians from the Palestinian suicide bombers. It was not erected to defend only those Israelis living west of the Green Line. It was also not erected with concern given to the placement of various Palestinian relatives... heck, if family was that important to them, perhaps they should have tried to stop their sons and daughters from committing suicide with the goal of murdering innocent and random Israeli civilians?
The fourth geneva convention prohibits collective punishment. Israel signed the geneva conventions (and they have since passed into international law) and is bound by them.
Additionally, the fourth geneva convention specifically prohibit a nation from housing it's own civilians in territories it occupies (for any reason). By legitimizing Israeli's living east of the green line, Israel is effectively using it's own civilians as human shields. By international law, it should be getting them the **** out of there. This is not an attempt to justify murder, the question is more about how why should I feel sympathetic to the Israelian cause (or indeed, pay money to support it, as US citizens are doing) as it's really just as bad (Except much, much more deadly).
One of the things the Jewish people have learned quite well throughout history is that when someone threatens to wipe you off the face of the earth - listen to them, they're too often serious.
Then why don't the Israeli's annex the area entirely instead of this half arsed wall solution? Israel would be in a far better position to deal with any troublemakers as well as being capable of eredicating the poverty issues that permeate this violent issue. Or, it could recognize Palestina as a sovereign state, withdraw, and then treat them as an attacking nation when bad **** happens again, with all the duties that this entails. BUt the current situation, where Israel doesn't view the palestenians as either citizens or civilians of a foreign nation only ensures that terms like "Apartheid Wall" are quite justified - Because right now Israel is not treating the Palestenians as human beings by any stretch of the imagination.
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This thread is about the current wave of Palestinian terror (mostly stabbings, but also some shootings and rock-throwings), and y'all's attempts to figure out how to justify murder.
Actually no, you lost any right to say this thread was about that when you posted long arguments about the history of the conflict and the legitimacy of the wall. Since you've torpedoed the thread (and it was your thread to torpedo) this thread is now about the conflict in general and I'm going to take back my earlier threat to kick anyone out of the thread who talks about historic claims over the land. Don't like it? Next time try to actually stick to the topic.
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:wtf: History doesn't stop being irrelevant just because the people who lived through it have since died, or some other arbitrary date line you may come up with. On the contrary:
You can learn from history, but history certainly does stop being relevant for any practical purposes after some time has passed. If you want to claim that land where you used to live on a thousand years ago still belongs to you, then that is a completely ridiculous notion. On the other hand, if you want to claim that land where you used to live on 50 years ago and were forcibly displaced still belongs to you, then I entirely agree that it does.
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Please watch this. Sandwhich, this man Steven Ben-Denoon lives in Jerusalem.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3DkvaKvlnk
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You can learn from history, but history certainly does stop being relevant for any practical purposes after some time has passed. If you want to claim that land where you used to live on a thousand years ago still belongs to you, then that is a completely ridiculous notion. On the other hand, if you want to claim that land where you used to live on 50 years ago and were forcibly displaced still belongs to you, then I entirely agree that it does.
I think what makes it important is whether or not there was an ongoing conflict. If two sides have been fighting over the same land for a thousand years then the conflict over who owns it doesn't seem as silly. But if one side has given up the fight, then they've basically accepted that the land is no longer theirs and moved on. You can't come back a thousand years later and make a claim that the land is yours again, cause now there are other people who can say "It's been ours for a thousand years and you haven't disputed that."
What really makes me laugh is that there are still Israelis fighting with the Swiss to get back Nazi gold. Their lack of irony amuses me.
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Please checkout this article:
http://shoebat.com/2015/10/17/how-to-stab-a-jew-101/
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Actually no, you lost any right to say this thread was about that when you posted long arguments about the history of the conflict and the legitimacy of the wall. Since you've torpedoed the thread (and it was your thread to torpedo) this thread is now about the conflict in general and I'm going to take back my earlier threat to kick anyone out of the thread who talks about historic claims over the land. Don't like it? Next time try to actually stick to the topic.
First of all, you are in no position to dictate to me what rights I have or don't have. Ignoring the issue of us both being admins, we're both human beings with equal rights to free speech (on HLP at least, regardless of where we may live at the time).
Secondly, you are in no position to dictate what this thread is or isn't about EDIT: Actually, That's not entirely true; you are in a position of authority on the forums, my apologies. The point I wanted to make was that if I want to correct an erroneous, off-topic statement, I can do so and then go right back to the original topic of the thread. If I'm in a conversation with someone about knitting, and someone else runs up yelling that the sky is red when it's actually blue, I'll darn well look up, see that the sky blue, tell them they're wrong if I darn well choose to, and go right back to talking about knitting.
Finally, I don't need your (evidently useless) (unjustified depiction, again, my apologies) threats to kick out people talking about historic claims to the land. I certainly appreciate and value your intentions to keep threads on-topic, and I would encourage you to continue doing so as you see fit. However, I was not the first person in this thread to bring up the history of the land and the legitimacy of the wall. Dragon responded directly to your warning, and in what could be termed a tone of rebellion, too:
Basically, let's make it official. Next person to make a historical claim to the land gets thrown out of this thread.
Says someone not from a country that spent its recent history fighting for its national identity. This stuff matters, there's a clear distinction between a claim that is 60 years old and one that is 600 years old. Elsewhere in the world (in a certain 2nd world country in the eastern Europe), property taken during WWII and after is often being returned to its original owners or their descendants. Israel is doing the very same thing Nazis and Commies used to. You can't just move people around against their will and expect them not to complain.
...and Bobboau and 666maslo666 started in on the fence/wall shortly thereafter.
Now I don't know if you were online at the time or not. Perhaps I saw those posts while you were sleeping. But they were posted, and I saw them and responded to try to address any inaccuracies in them. But now you return to this thread to see that people have gone off on a tangent, and you have the temerity to accuse me for not sticking to the topic, without so much as a word to Dragon? Nuh-uh. If you want to complain about how I didn't cut off the off-topic-ness right from the outset, fine - that would be perfectly justified. But don't go about accusing me with that condescending tone as if it was my fault for dragging things off-topic to begin with.
That's the same double-standards the world constantly applies to Israel - don't you dare do that to me.
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Here's another article by a Palestinian scholar that everyone's going to completely ignore just because it's published by the Gatestone Institute and because it supports Israel - or rather, states the fugly truth about why the Palestinians are on a murdering spree:
http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/6669/palestinian-terrorists
- Palestinian terrorists are not driven by poverty and deprivation, as many have long argued. Instead, they are driven by hatred for Jews -- because of what their leaders, media and mosques are telling them.
- These young people took advantage of their status as permanent residents of Israel to set out and murder Jews. Their Israeli ID cards allow them to travel freely inside Israel. They were also entitled to the social welfare benefits and free healthcare granted to all Israeli citizens.
- Muhannad Halabi wanted to murder Jews because he had been brainwashed by our leaders and media, and was driven by hatred -- he was not living in misery and deprivation. The family's house in the village of Surda, on the outskirts of Ramallah, looks as if it came out of a movie filmed in San Diego.
- This conflict is not about Islamic holy sites or Jerusalem. Murdering a Jewish couple in front of their four children has nothing to do with the Aqsa Mosque or "occupation."
- For the terrorists, all Jews are "settlers" and Israel is one big settlement. This is not an intifada -- it is just another killing-spree aimed at terrorizing the Jews and forcing them out of this part of the world. It already succeeded in the rest of the Middle East and is now being done there to the Christians as well.
- The current wave of terrorism is just another phase in our dream to wipe Israel off the face of the earth. The terrorists and their supporters are not struggling against a checkpoint or a wall. They want to see Israel destroyed, Jews slaughtered, and the streets of Israel running with Jewish blood.
Stop trying to justify murder.
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I only started the on about the wall because someone basically said "they should just build a wall" and I was like, "yeah, they're about 10 years ahead of you, and even then, because it was Israel doing it, it was called the 'baby eating murder wall of genocide' by everyone else."
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Stop trying to justify murder.
I don't think anyone here is trying to justify murder. Everytime something happens in the area it is used as an justification for murder, leading to further and further escelation that ends in a lot of people dying horribly. Undoubtly these stabbings will be used as an justification of murder for someone else. That murder will then be used as a justification for a broader violent act, that broader violent act will be then used as a justification for an even broader violent act which will eventually end with a lot of people (mostly palestenians) dying.
This is something that has happened time and time again. Pointing out this cycle is not justifying murder, it's trying to stop people from giving eachother justifications.
That's the same double-standards the world constantly applies to Israel
Israel is not held to a double standard at all. That it percieves as such is part of the problem. It is similar to the problem I started my gun thread OP with, except with far deadlier consequences.
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Stop trying to justify murder.
I don't think anyone here is trying to justify murder.
Glad to hear it. Where are the international calls condemning the Palestinians for all these violent acts of murder and attempted murder?
That's an honest question, by the way. I haven't heard any condemnations from over here. If the condemnations of Palestinian violence are being spread all over the news waves internationally, link me up please.
Israel is not held to a double standard at all.
I hate posting the same links twice, but apparently you either missed them the first time, or decided to utterly ignore them. Read them this time and get back to me:
http://www.unwatch.org/watch-ap-grills-state-department-for-double-standards-against-israel-in-light-of-afghan-bombing/
http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2015/09/21/yemen-strikes-israel-and-double-standards-in-the-middle-east/
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Actually no, you lost any right to say this thread was about that when you posted long arguments about the history of the conflict and the legitimacy of the wall. Since you've torpedoed the thread (and it was your thread to torpedo) this thread is now about the conflict in general and I'm going to take back my earlier threat to kick anyone out of the thread who talks about historic claims over the land. Don't like it? Next time try to actually stick to the topic.
Wow. What a bunch of horse ****. Sandwich is NOT the one who started the thread down this path. Sandwich makes post about living in the midst of awfulness. A few posts go by, but it doesn't take long for the Israel blaming to start. And then the full out bashing. Just like EVERY OTHER GODDAMN TIME **** flares up over there and Sandwich posts about it. I'm not going to tread lightly here, go ahead and threaten admin powers like you love to do. I selected this next sentence very carefully, and I mean it with every fiber of my being:
If you seriously want to blame Sandwich for going on the defensive after the collective HLP holier-than-thou says "well, it's your own fault" to a post that was simply a statement of "hey guys, ****'s kinda bad around me right now," then **** you.
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Shooting attack in Be'er Sheba 30 mins ago: http://www.timesofisrael.com/october-18-2015-liveblog/
6 injured in shooting and stabbing attack in Beersheba; at least 1 attacker killed
One person critically wounded, 5 moderately injured in attack at central bus station in southern city; 2 assailants said to open fire, then stab people in two different areas in building
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The point I wanted to make was that if I want to correct an erroneous, off-topic statement, I can do so and then go right back to the original topic of the thread.[/u] If I'm in a conversation with someone about knitting, and someone else runs up yelling that the sky is red when it's actually blue, I'll darn well look up, see that the sky blue, tell them they're wrong if I darn well choose to, and go right back to talking about knitting.
And then someone will point out its almost sunset and the sky is actually red for the most part and you'll both argue about how much of the sky is red cause you're looking up and he's looking at the horizon.
You didn't simply post fact, you editorialised when you should have simply got the thread back on topic. I don't think anyone would have complained had you only done that. Admin or not you have the right to choose what you want your post to be about. But what you don't have the right to do is to post a bunch of stuff that is off-topic and then demand that everyone ignores it and goes back to what you want to talk about. If you want to talk about double standards, that's a massive one right there.
Wow. What a bunch of horse ****. Sandwich is NOT the one who started the thread down this path. Sandwich makes post about living in the midst of awfulness. A few posts go by, but it doesn't take long for the Israel blaming to start. And then the full out bashing. Just like EVERY OTHER GODDAMN TIME **** flares up over there and Sandwich posts about it.
And he was welcome to continue on the actual topic. I actually supported him when Turambar tried to drag the topic off-course the first time and said I'd kick people off the thread then next time they did it. But if he's going to drag the thread off-topic himself, it would be a massive double standard to have actually carried through on that.
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...you should have simply got the thread back on topic. ... But what you don't have the right to do is to post a bunch of stuff that is off-topic and then demand that everyone ignores it and goes back to what you want to talk about.
I demanded? No, Kara - it was you (and rightfully so!) who came closest to "demanding" the thread remain on-topic. My "demand" to get back on-topic was:
[buncha off-topic stuff only vaguely related to the issue at hand, and then...]
Anyway, how'd we get off on this tangent to begin with? This thread is about the current wave of Palestinian terror (mostly stabbings, but also some shootings and rock-throwings), and y'all's attempts to figure out how to justify murder.
A question and a statement. No demands.
Don't put words in my mouth.
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Glad to hear it. Where are the international calls condemning the Palestinians for all these violent acts of murder and attempted murder?
Currently I haven't seen much. Have there been any international calls condemning the Israelians for the recent violent acts of murder and attempted murder?
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No one is condemning the Palestinians for being violent for the same reason no one blames the sea for being wet. That's just what it is and it's not going to change any time soon.
It's a huge mistake to assume the fact that people don't waste their breath condemning criminals and terrorists for committing crimes and terrorism as being in any way support of their actions.
...you should have simply got the thread back on topic. ... But what you don't have the right to do is to post a bunch of stuff that is off-topic and then demand that everyone ignores it and goes back to what you want to talk about.
I demanded? No, Kara - it was you (and rightfully so!) who came closest to "demanding" the thread remain on-topic. My "demand" to get back on-topic was:
[buncha off-topic stuff only vaguely related to the issue at hand, and then...]
Anyway, how'd we get off on this tangent to begin with? This thread is about the current wave of Palestinian terror (mostly stabbings, but also some shootings and rock-throwings), and y'all's attempts to figure out how to justify murder.
A question and a statement. No demands.
Don't put words in my mouth.
As an admin, asking people to get back on topic carries more weight than as a regular user. If you weren't demanding and it was a simple request, my mistake.
But if that's the case, what's the problem then? Let the discussion go where ever it will.
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To further add to Karajorma: An important distinction is that when people protesting Israel's actions get shot (something for which Israel does get condemnations) or when civilians die at the hand of Israel's police actions, these killings are done by people who work for the Israeli government. The palestenians can not be held accountable for the actions of terrorists and criminals, just as the israelian government can not be held accountable for it's own terrorists and criminals. But it can be held accountable for the actions of it's police forces and army, like happened last year (And last year the palestenian governments did get condemnations for the violence as well, esp. from the european and US corner).
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"No one is condemning the Palestinians for being violent for the same reason no one blames the sea for being wet. That's just what it is and it's not going to change any time soon."
and I think that may be a major part of the reason nothing ever changes here.
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But people are condeming the palestenians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactions_to_the_2014_Israel%E2%80%93Gaza_conflict). Atleast they were in 2014.
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I was referring to the people on this thread rather than governments for the most part.
That said, I think most governments do fall into the trap of assuming condemning the Palestinian leadership is implicit in everything they say in the issue somewhat too.
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Glad to hear it. Where are the international calls condemning the Palestinians for all these violent acts of murder and attempted murder?
Currently I haven't seen much. Have there been any international calls condemning the Israelians for the recent violent acts of murder and attempted murder?
Ok, for the record: An Israeli person, a Palestinian person. Israeli people, Palestinian people. I know it can be confusing. :)
As for your question, here's a condemnation from UN Secretary General Ban Ki-Moon (http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/UNs-Ban-condemns-recent-killings-of-Palestinians-without-mention-of-Israeli-terror-victims-421104):
UN Secretary General Ban Ki-Moon on Tuesday expressed his concern over the recent surge in tensions between Israelis and Palestinians, condemning the killings of Palestinians without mention of Israeli terror victims.
The UN chief said he is "profoundly alarmed by the growing number of deadly incidents in the West Bank, including east Jerusalem."
"The Secretary-General welcomes the commitment by Palestinian and Israeli officials to work together to curb the violence, including through continued security cooperation," he added.
Ban said he did not believe that the demolition of homes belonging to Palestinian terrorists or the construction of new Israeli settlements "will do anything other than inflame tensions still further."
Ban acknowledged the death of four Palestinians, referring to a 13-year-old boy whom the IDF said was accidentally killed by misfire and three terrorists who were killed by security forces following attacks that killed four Israelis.
While he said the "escalation of violent incidents underscores the need for urgent action by both sides," Ban placed responsibility on Israel to investigate incidents of violence.
"The Secretary-General condemns the killings and looks to the Government of Israel to conduct a prompt and transparent investigation into the incidents, including whether the use of force was proportional," the UN statement said.
However, Ban's statement made no specific mention of the four Israeli causalities in terrorist shootings and stabbing over the past week, nor did he mention steps the Palestinian Authority government should take.
He also pointed toward the reported hundreds of Palestinians injured in clashes with Israeli security forces, and called these events "yet another worrisome sign of violence potentially spiraling out of control."
Is the head of the UN sufficient, or should I look for more instances?
No one is condemning the Palestinians for being violent for the same reason no one blames the sea for being wet. That's just what it is and it's not going to change any time soon.
It's a huge mistake to assume the fact that people don't waste their breath condemning criminals and terrorists for committing crimes and terrorism as being in any way support of their actions.
I was referring to the people on this thread rather than governments.
Ahh, thanks for the clarification. Would it then be right to say that you view the situation here kinda like coaching your kid how to deal with bullies at school? "The bullies can't help acting like idiots, it's the way they are, ignore them, be better than them?"
If so, how would your coaching change after a few years of your kid getting bloody noses and cracked ribs from those bullies?
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@kara: and here I thought you were referring to people in general, this thread seems like a fairly representative sample aside from having several actual Israelis in it.
(thread is moving just a little bit too fast)
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It's sufficient.
He also condemned palestenians for their attacks on Israelis two days earlier (http://www.un.org/press/en/2015/sgsm17186.doc.htm).
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@kara: and here I thought you were referring to people in general, this thread seems like a fairly representative sample aside from having several actual Israelis in it.
(thread is moving just a little bit too fast)
I don't see any Palestinians though. And that's also kinda the problem. We never see any Palestinians.
Ahh, thanks for the clarification. Would it then be right to say that you view the situation here kinda like coaching your kid how to deal with bullies at school? "The bullies can't help acting like idiots, it's the way they are, ignore them, be better than them?"
If so, how would your coaching change after a few years of your kid getting bloody noses and cracked ribs from those bullies?
It's not even slightly close to the situation really. A more apt metaphor might be if you were the principle of the school and had bullied their parents in the past and your kid had a big mouth but even then it is still a really, really, ****ty metaphor.
No one here is going to claim that Palestinian terrorism is justified. But Israel really needs to stop acting like it's the innocent victim here. This is a case of two groups of people constantly starting fights with each other over stupid ****. The reason why the claims about prayer in a Muslim sacred space are so easily believed is because Israel has got a history of carrying out provocative actions (like settling in Gaza and the West Bank) even when things are relatively calm.
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If so, how would your coaching change after a few years of your kid getting bloody noses and cracked ribs from those bullies?
I'd switch schools.
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not everyone has the fortune to be able to move.
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But why does that have to go trough palestenian territory, instead of sticking to the west of the 1967 lines? Why does it have to be built in such a way that it also protects the jewish settlers inside palestenian territory whose presence is in violation of the geneva conventions, which Israel signed? Why does it have to be built in a way that it seperates 240,000 palestenians from their relatives east of the wall?
Okay, I know I should have replied to this much, much sooner, but have you bothered to read up on the Geneva Conventions at all? The Wikipedia entries on them are rather wordy and big on lawyer-speak, but you should give them a nice hard look if you think Israel is the only violator of them, or hell, even the worst violator of them in this conflict.
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I believe, though please correct me if I am misrepresenting, that Josh is of the opinion that it does not matter what the other side is doing, that Israel signed them and they are beholden to them and they make no exception for if you are fighting someone who is not following them.
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Exactly. No one brings up the Geneva Conventions for the Palestinian side for the reason I mentioned above. We all know they are breaking them. That doesn't mean Israel also has the right to break them. It makes the entire Convention worthless if you can decide to break them simply because the other side is.
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Exactly. No one brings up the Geneva Conventions for the Palestinian side for the reason I mentioned above. We all know they are breaking them. That doesn't mean Israel also has the right to break them. It makes the entire Convention worthless if you can decide to break them simply because the other side is.
It's also the only meaningful enforcement of them. The primary brake on violating the rules of war is and always has been that the enemy will retaliate in kind. Nobody is going to prosecute these people on either side, and they know it. The only thing to hold them back is the possibility that whatever they do will be returned tenfold.
And this has actually worked, though admittedly between actual nation-states. It's arguably working here, at least on some more extreme actions. Everyone knows if the Dome of the Rock or the Wailing Wall is directly attacked then the results will be catastrophic for whoever did so; they are never threatened directly for a reason.
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Well yeah, on a mutually assured destruction level, yeah they work. But that doesn't mean that either side get to claim to be the good guys cause they didn't go all the way crazy.
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I believe, though please correct me if I am misrepresenting, that Josh is of the opinion that it does not matter what the other side is doing, that Israel signed them and they are beholden to them and they make no exception for if you are fighting someone who is not following them.
"I thought rebels didn't recognize BETAC."
"No, but we do."
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"I thought rebels didn't recognize BETAC."
"No, but we do."
:lol:
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Well yeah, on a mutually assured destruction level, yeah they work. But that doesn't mean that either side get to claim to be the good guys cause they didn't go all the way crazy.
No, even beyond that. The Uboatwaffe refused orders to sink Allied lifeboats during WW2 because Donitz was convinced if his men offered no mercy, they would be granted none; thousands of German submariners survived because of that choice. The RAF threatened to courtmartial several Czech pilots during the Battle of Britain to get them to stop attacking Germans parachuting to the ground, fearing that the Luftwaffe would retaliate if it continued. WW2 did not go chemical because though the Germans were the only people in the world with nerve gas, whatever combat advantages they might have gained from deploying Tabun or Sarin would have been nullified by 8th Air Force and Bomber Command raiding German cities with mustard gas.
Conversely, at Bismarck Sea the Japanese machinegunned several bomber crew hanging from their parachutes, killing seven; several US fighters that tried to defend the men were also shot down. In response, US and Australian aircraft did not content themselves with sinking the convoy; they also sank the convoy's lifeboats, killing thousands of Japanese soldiers. There was never another documented, coordinated instance of Japanese fighters attacking Allied aircrew who'd bailed out until the B-29 raids on the Home Islands.
It's an ugly thing, but retaliation is really the only punishment available unless one side or the other wins so decisively as to effectively destroy their opponents. And it can work.
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WW2 did not go chemical because though the Germans were the only people in the world with nerve gas, whatever combat advantages they might have gained from deploying Tabun or Sarin would have been nullified by 8th Air Force and Bomber Command raiding German cities with mustard gas.
Actually, that one is also the other way round. Churchill wanted to use mustard gas but the armed forces feared reprisals and talked him out of it.
But here's the thing. Are Israel's infractions stated as being in retaliation for similar ones from the Palestinians? Hell, are the Palestinians combatants even covered by the Geneva Conventions for the most part? Terrorists certainly aren't.
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It just hit me - how united are the Palestinians anyway? So far, I didn't see anything organized taking place, just a lot of people killing each other in the streets more or less randomly. It certainly doesn't look like Hamas action, or even anything remotely organized.
Now, most partisan forces (such as Polish or Irish ones) that actually managed to achieve anything were united under something more concrete than a simple declaration of religion and ethnicity. So far, it looks like every Palestinian has his/her own agenda and reason for doing what they do. Some might very well be fighting for the right to vote on the Knesset (note, women in Britain also went quite far for their right to vote), while others may be killing people just for the heck of it (as it's one of the few places where a psychotic killer can find acceptance as long as he discriminates between targets). I've seen many second-hand reports, articles and analyses, but is there any definitive statement from anyone directly involved available?
Israel (as a state, not individual people) seems, so far, to be punishing an entire ethnicity for the actions of the attackers. This isn't going to do any good for anyone, except maybe Israel's enemies. If they really aren't organized (which would imply those are common people taking up arms in desperation), then Israeli government needs to rethink its strategy, to say the least.
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It just hit me - how united are the Palestinians anyway? So far, I didn't see anything organized taking place, just a lot of people killing each other in the streets more or less randomly. It certainly doesn't look like Hamas action, or even anything remotely organized.
Now, most partisan forces (such as Polish or Irish ones) that actually managed to achieve anything were united under something more concrete than a simple declaration of religion and ethnicity. So far, it looks like every Palestinian has his/her own agenda and reason for doing what they do.
Their governments haven't been the best, i can understand why they wouldn't be loyal. I mean, Israel's still parked on their home and the governments are either taking money from the corrupt west, or are branded terrorist organizations.
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It's not a matter of government, it's a matter of leadership in general. Even rebels have leaders, going out and killing someone is a pretty though decision for your average guy on the street, even in a place like this. Palestinian's choice with regards to established "governments" is between thieves (Fatah), tyrants (Hamas) and occupants (Israel), but I'd expect some sort of new leadership, even a weak one, to arise.
That is, of course, assuming that the discrimination hasn't gotten so bad that those people really have nothing left but to go out and kill, on their own. It'd have to be really egregious for that to happen, though (even for all my criticism towards Israel, I'd be very surprised if that was the case).
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It just hit me - how united are the Palestinians anyway? So far, I didn't see anything organized taking place, just a lot of people killing each other in the streets more or less randomly. It certainly doesn't look like Hamas action, or even anything remotely organized.
Not very united - there's at least 4 different factions I can think of off the top of my head: Hamas, Fatah, Islamic Jihad, and the most recent, IS. That's of course not counting the regular Palestinians not particularly aligned with any one faction, nor the Israeli Arabs.
However, all the factions are virulently anti-Israel, and all have praised the "brave actions" yadda yadda, rejoicing over every drop of blood spilt. The radical leadership and incessant "Jews are evil monkeys and pigs" hate propaganda in their schools, mosques, and television programs has literally turned them into bloodthirsty savages. IMO it's the hate propaganda that needs to be stopped more than anything else.
Some might very well be fighting for the right to vote on the Knesset (note, women in Britain also went quite far for their right to vote), while others may be killing people just for the heck of it (as it's one of the few places where a psychotic killer can find acceptance as long as he discriminates between targets). I've seen many second-hand reports, articles and analyses, but is there any definitive statement from anyone directly involved available?
Yes (oh hey, look - I was prophetic! Everyone ignored the article like I said!):
Here's another article by a Palestinian scholar that everyone's going to completely ignore just because it's published by the Gatestone Institute and because it supports Israel - or rather, states the fugly truth about why the Palestinians are on a murdering spree:
http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/6669/palestinian-terrorists
- Palestinian terrorists are not driven by poverty and deprivation, as many have long argued. Instead, they are driven by hatred for Jews -- because of what their leaders, media and mosques are telling them.
- These young people took advantage of their status as permanent residents of Israel to set out and murder Jews. Their Israeli ID cards allow them to travel freely inside Israel. They were also entitled to the social welfare benefits and free healthcare granted to all Israeli citizens.
- Muhannad Halabi wanted to murder Jews because he had been brainwashed by our leaders and media, and was driven by hatred -- he was not living in misery and deprivation. The family's house in the village of Surda, on the outskirts of Ramallah, looks as if it came out of a movie filmed in San Diego.
- This conflict is not about Islamic holy sites or Jerusalem. Murdering a Jewish couple in front of their four children has nothing to do with the Aqsa Mosque or "occupation."
- For the terrorists, all Jews are "settlers" and Israel is one big settlement. This is not an intifada -- it is just another killing-spree aimed at terrorizing the Jews and forcing them out of this part of the world. It already succeeded in the rest of the Middle East and is now being done there to the Christians as well.
- The current wave of terrorism is just another phase in our dream to wipe Israel off the face of the earth. The terrorists and their supporters are not struggling against a checkpoint or a wall. They want to see Israel destroyed, Jews slaughtered, and the streets of Israel running with Jewish blood.
Stop trying to justify murder.
Or, if you prefer to look at what the terrorists are writing on their social media accounts before going out to murder Jews, watch this:
(note: from 15:50 to 22:25 is in Hebrew, but he repeats much of what he says afterwards in English)
Israel (as a state, not individual people) seems, so far, to be punishing an entire ethnicity for the actions of the attackers.
What have you read to give you that idea?
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Oh come on Sandwich, that idea has been explained so many times in so many threads on here that no one is going to buy your mock surprise.
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Yes (oh hey, look - I was prophetic! Everyone ignored the article like I said!):
No, I actually checked out the article and it didn't convince me. That institute is good at pointing out things that are true, but are only a part of a bigger story. In fact, it spurred my question about leadership, due to claims it made and the fact they're about a number of specific cases. Believe it or not, some of those people could be fighting for voting rights. That a few rich idiots decided to go on a killing spree doesn't mean that they're the majority. I'm not denying that there is a lot of terrorism based on pure hatred (of which those are good examples of), but the latest "uprising" seems to be bigger than that.
Not very united - there's at least 4 different factions I can think of off the top of my head: Hamas, Fatah, Islamic Jihad, and the most recent, IS. That's of course not counting the regular Palestinians not particularly aligned with any one faction, nor the Israeli Arabs.
However, all the factions are virulently anti-Israel, and all have praised the "brave actions" yadda yadda, rejoicing over every drop of blood spilt. The radical leadership and incessant "Jews are evil monkeys and pigs" hate propaganda in their schools, mosques, and television programs has literally turned them into bloodthirsty savages. IMO it's the hate propaganda that needs to be stopped more than anything else.
This sounds like a fine piece of Israeli hate propaganda. I really don't think there isn't a single Imam in Israel calling for peace, or that radicals hold an iron grip over the soul of everyone who is not a member of the "Jewish master race" (yes, this is the vibe I'm getting from Israel sometimes). That people are more primitive in their thinking and culture does not, in itself, make them monsters. Radicals can do that, but what we are seeing seem to imply that people not aligned with radical organizations are rising up as well. Hate propaganda from Islamists definitely needs to be stopped (I wouldn't be opposed to Israel jamming/firewalling the more notorious providers), but I don't think it'd solve the underlying problem.
What have you read to give you that idea?
Recent news. For example about destroying houses, police repressions and all that. I didn't see a coordinated operation against radical elements in the society, that's for sure.
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But here's the thing. Are Israel's infractions stated as being in retaliation for similar ones from the Palestinians? Hell, are the Palestinians combatants even covered by the Geneva Conventions for the most part? Terrorists certainly aren't.
Certainly. When there was a bounty of $10K for a successful suicide bombing, Israel took to bulldozing the houses of the immediate family of suicide bombers in retaliation, making the $10K bounty moot. Air strikes in response to rocket launches. Major ground engagements in response to repeated provocations.
He sends one of yours to the hospital, you send a dozen of his to the morgue. Is it legal or moral? Not particularly. But as long as you can ultimately escalate further than the other guy, he has nothing to gain by following the cycle to its end. Israel has always been able to escalate further, and has played this game for most of its existence.
Given the inability of either of the groups who claim to speak for the Palestinians to meet the minimum definition of a state as the entity with a monopoly on the use of lethal force, we could go on like this forever due to a lack of better options.
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And settling in the West Bank? The issue that brought up the whole issue of the Geneva Convention? What is that in response to?
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Has anyone seen this video?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJyuTQ9kNCY
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And now, history!
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And settling in the West Bank? The issue that brought up the whole issue of the Geneva Convention? What is that in response to?
He sends one of yours to the hospital, you send a dozen of his to the morgue. Is it legal or moral? Not particularly. But as long as you can ultimately escalate further than the other guy, he has nothing to gain by following the cycle to its end. Israel has always been able to escalate further, and has played this game for most of its existence.
The point, it went over your head. Geneva has no bearing on the reality of the situation and probably never will. (Indeed, it probably doesn't have bearing on the settlement issue at all; I await a direct citation to prove otherwise.)
Who initiates the use-of-force cycle is irrelevant. Only Israel wins when it happens.
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The only reason that they were brought up is because Joshua asked why the hell Israel has to build settlements in violation of the Geneva convention in the first place. You've tried to make the claim that they are in direct retaliation for something but can't actually claim what that it. If you want to argue that Israel are ignoring the Geneva convention on this subject entirely because they have the power to do so, no one is going to argue with you. That's exactly what Joshua was on about in the first place. Why the hell are they acting like "Might makes right"?
Indeed, it probably doesn't have bearing on the settlement issue at all; I await a direct citation to prove otherwise.
You're not aware of the sheer number of UN resolutions that specifically cite that particular violation of the convention? Here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_law_and_Israeli_settlements#International_legal_opinions).