Hard Light Productions Forums
Site Management => Site Support / Feedback => Topic started by: Hades on October 25, 2015, 02:31:47 am
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The warning I received made all of my posts require approval by moderation approval before being displayed also causes this functionality with internal, project-specific subforums which is pretty silly and rather counterproductive.
I'd also like to mention that I had to find this out myself, since the message I got telling me I was warned said nothing about this imposed posting moderation, which seems a bit silly to me. It really seemed as if it was too busy being threatening and not busy enough being informative. I can't even talk to the moderator or admin who issued it about it because it gets sent through the forums as opposed of through them.
I'll just reply in the OP here because this post moderation is a dumb punishment that just punishes the moderators for my behavior:
Come on, Hades, you're a smart guy. You had to know when you made that post that it was over the line. And when you step over the line, posting rights are temporarily taken away to incentivise you not to do it again. By its nature, it's meant to be an inconvenience.
This is the system working as it ought to - a feature, not a bug.
I'm not arguing being punished or that I ****posted, what I'm arguing with is how needlessly tedious it makes on people other than myself to post in mod development internal boards (and in general) while trying to help with development of said mods. It's one thing to take away easy public forum access but it's another to disrupt developer communication on a forum for developing. This is the same ****ing issue people had with monkeying years ago that the administration/mods still haven't seemed to learn from, since they're repeating that same mistake again.
And again, a big issue is that I had to find this out myself, as the warning message told me nothing about being punished and I wouldn't know who to talk to about the punishment either. There's a big lack of transparency and that's a big issue.
And I STILL don't know how long this is going to last, that's another thing left out of the warning message, which again, was useless in every way except for telling me what was offensive.
Hades,
You have received a warning for insulting other users and/or staff members in regards to the message:
Re: Warships of the TEI (GTD Titan WIP) (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?msg=1800007).
Please cease these activities and abide by the forum rules otherwise we will take further action.
Regards,
The Hard Light Productions Forums Team.
This is completely opaque. I do not know that I am punished (since warning doesn't mean punishing someone), I don't know how long I am punished for the punishment I don't know I have, and I don't know who gave it out so I don't know who to talk to about it. This is egregious, this is a big part of the issues the community has had with HLP's moderation and administration.
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Come on, Hades, you're a smart guy. You had to know when you made that post that it was over the line. And when you step over the line, posting rights are temporarily taken away to incentivise you not to do it again. By its nature, it's meant to be an inconvenience.
This is the system working as it ought to - a feature, not a bug.
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I'm not arguing with the punishment or that I ****posted, what I'm arguing with is how needlessly tedious it makes on people other than myself to post in mod development internal boards while trying to help with development of said mods. It's one thing to take away easy public forum access but it's another to disrupt developer communication on a forum for developing.
And again, a big issue is that I had to find this out myself, as the warning message told me nothing about being punished and I wouldn't know who to talk to about the punishment either. There's a big lack of transparency and that's a big issue.
And I STILL don't know how long this is going to last, that's another thing left out of the warning message, which again, was useless in every way except for telling me what was offensive.
EDIT: In fact I'll just post ut.
Hades,
You have received a warning for insulting other users and/or staff members in regards to the message:
Re: Warships of the TEI (GTD Titan WIP) (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?msg=1800007).
Please cease these activities and abide by the forum rules otherwise we will take further action.
Regards,
The Hard Light Productions Forums Team.
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The warning I received made all of my posts require approval by moderation approval before being displayed also causes this functionality with internal, project-specific subforums which is pretty silly and rather counterproductive.
I'd also like to mention that I had to find this out myself, since the message I got telling me I was warned said nothing about this imposed posting moderation, which seems a bit silly to me. It really seemed as if it was too busy being threatening and not busy enough being informative. I can't even talk to the moderator or admin who issued it about it because it gets sent through the forums as opposed of through them.
Same but I too am sexy
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Come on, Hades, you're a smart guy.
Yes, by noticing this is a modding forum dedicated to ensure the productivity of mods, he is a smart guy. When you're inconveniencing mod progress, you're denying the very purpose of HLP.
Besides, since moderators are the ones who have to approve posts, I don't think the most inconvenienced are the ones you think.
Guess who isn't a smart guy in this thread. Come on, you can do it.
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Come on, Hades, you're a smart guy.
Yes, by noticing this is a modding forum dedicated to ensure the productivity of mods, he is a smart guy. When you're inconveniencing mod progress, you're denying the very purpose of HLP.
Besides, since moderators are the ones who have to approve posts, I don't think the most inconvenienced are the ones you think.
Guess who isn't a smart guy in this thread. Come on, you can do it.
Yeah what Matth said.
But hey, HLP moderation that isn't ****ing with its content creators? Un****ing heard of.
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Yo we're in crunch on a big release and need quick iteration, gotta get those Hades posts into our beta forum.
Can someone just monkey him, at least that way he can post on internal boards. He wouldn't give a ****.
Alternately, Hades, register a new account and we can add you to beta boards.
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I'm not going to get into yet another argument about moderation with the same old group of people. Hades, you got a 25% warning that has dropped to 20%. You'll be back to normal within 24 hours. If an admin wants to change the way the warning system word, they're welcome to. In the meantime, avoid homophobic slurs against other forum members during release date crunch periods. Or, you know, all the time.
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While we all value you lot attempting to save us inconvenience, moderating posts isn't half as much of a chore as you seem to imagine it is.
I'll monkey Hades though since that appears to be less of an inconvenience to all concerned.
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I'm not going to get into yet another argument about moderation with the same old group of people. Hades, you got a 25% warning that has dropped to 20%. You'll be back to normal within 24 hours. If an admin wants to change the way the warning system word, they're welcome to. In the meantime, avoid homophobic slurs against other forum members during release date crunch periods. Or, you know, all the time.
The warning was perfectly deserved and a good use of the warning system, it's just inconvenient that it also applies to project boards. That's why we fixed monkeys to only apply to public boards.
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I'm not going to get into yet another argument about moderation with the same old group of people. Hades, you got a 25% warning that has dropped to 20%. You'll be back to normal within 24 hours. If an admin wants to change the way the warning system word, they're welcome to. In the meantime, avoid homophobic slurs against other forum members during release date crunch periods. Or, you know, all the time.
You could as a moderator, I dunno, PM the user personally instead if you can't set up the warning system to actually give useful messages?
How do you not see issue with how opaque this whole system is? As an end user I had no idea this percentage system was a thing or how it works, and I don't really know how it works still. When action is taken against a user, they should know as much as possible, not have to find out action has been taken through posting/trying to post.
I mean I don't really know why I'm trying, HLP moderation has pretty much been terrible for as long as I've been around and it shows no willingness to change. Feels like I'm yelling into a void, which I mean if the HLP moderation was going for an empty space theme style of moderation bravo I guess.
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Problem is, Black wolf, is that you don't learn from your mistakes. And yet again, you are putting your fingers in your ears and start shouting "LALALA I can't hear you!".
Last time you ****ed up in the WoD forum, you could have avoided all of it by PMing instead. In this case too, this whole thread wouldn't have been a thing if you had PM'd instead. Think about it, you're a smart guy. As Hades already pointed out, the warning system is incredible opaque. Nobody in the thread that this happened in, saw you issue a warning to Hades, nobody outside of a few moderator enabled members can even see that Hades account is set to moderated or watched. And the warning message pm didn't tell Hades anything meaningful.
So in effect you acomplished nothing. The 'public' didn't see you take action and Hades was told nothing.
I don't have to spell out from here how a PM would have been a better idea, right? You're a smart guy after all.
Instead now you have to deal with 'same old group of people' again. Doesn't that get tiresome?
I mean I don't really know why I'm trying, HLP moderation has pretty much been terrible for as long as I've been around and it shows no willingness to change. Feels like I'm yelling into a void, which I mean if the HLP moderation was going for an empty space theme style of moderation bravo I guess.
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I'm not going to get into yet another argument about moderation with the same old group of people.
Yeah, because that's totally OUR fault this comes up all the time. Totally not your absolute incapacity to moderate correctly, no sir.
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In which various people think that yelling insults at someone will convince them that they made a mistake.
Look, I agree that it would probably be best if at all possible to not apply post approval to private project boards (I don't know how flexible SMF is in that regard). I'll also acknowledge that we can and should do a better job at communicating the warning system and its consequences, whether that's in the individual warning message or in the floated Guidelines for Forum Conduct thread. I do feel as though moderator actions shouldn't necessarily be broadcast publicly: as far as I'm concerned it's a matter between the moderator and the poster, and if the latter then chooses to share what happened with anyone else, they're free to do so.
Speaking more personally, though, I almost feel as though BW is right, and that moderation actions temporarily affecting even private board posts could be viewed as a feature, and not an issue to be corrected. The way we do moderation here basically comes down to Wheaton's Law: don't be a dick. If you do choose to be a dick in an egregious manner, then you should be subject to the consequences of such, and it shouldn't matter whether you're a decade-long prolific modder, or a total n00b making his first post about that weird web cursor bitmap error. During my years here I've sometimes felt as though certain individuals have received pass after pass for egregious behavior just because they happened to be really skilled coders or fantastic modelers, and that's not something I want to see happen. If your own actions happen to impact your mod team negatively, then perhaps that should be all the more incentive to not act that way.
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During my years here I've sometimes felt as though certain individuals have received pass after pass for egregious behavior just because they happened to be really skilled coders or fantastic modelers, and that's not something I want to see happen. If your own actions happen to impact your mod team negatively, then perhaps that should be all the more incentive to not act that way.
This absolutely happens, though personally I've felt it to be more down to cronyism / favouritism. Though I have been told myself being a content creator helps you in this regard by at least one member of the staff. Some people enjoy a certain level of protection. We are not all treated the same.
I wonder if there's anyone here on Hard Light these days outside of the advantaged ones who feels Hard Light moderation has an overall positive effect on this board.
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In which various people think that yelling insults at someone will convince them that they made a mistake.
Look, I agree that it would probably be best if at all possible to not apply post approval to private project boards (I don't know how flexible SMF is in that regard). I'll also acknowledge that we can and should do a better job at communicating the warning system and its consequences, whether that's in the individual warning message or in the floated Guidelines for Forum Conduct thread. I do feel as though moderator actions shouldn't necessarily be broadcast publicly: as far as I'm concerned it's a matter between the moderator and the poster, and if the latter then chooses to share what happened with anyone else, they're free to do so.
Speaking more personally, though, I almost feel as though BW is right, and that moderation actions temporarily affecting even private board posts could be viewed as a feature, and not an issue to be corrected. The way we do moderation here basically comes down to Wheaton's Law: don't be a dick. If you do choose to be a dick in an egregious manner, then you should be subject to the consequences of such, and it shouldn't matter whether you're a decade-long prolific modder, or a total n00b making his first post about that weird web cursor bitmap error. During my years here I've sometimes felt as though certain individuals have received pass after pass for egregious behavior just because they happened to be really skilled coders or fantastic modelers, and that's not something I want to see happen. If your own actions happen to impact your mod team negatively, then perhaps that should be all the more incentive to not act that way.
Already we've reached the stage where this goes from small issue to meta-issue where everyone hauls out decade-old grievances!
Make mods, play mods. If people are dicks in a certain capacity, stop them from being dicks in that capacity. Don't stop them from doing useful things (for example, beta testing for a team you're not even on).
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For example, it's not cool to use homophobic language! If you do that, maybe you deserve a day off from posting in public to think about what you did.
Maybe some project you signed on to test for doesn't deserve a day off your necessary posts, because that project is not in charge of some beta tester's language decisions. This is a board for making mods for FreeSpace.
If you don't contribute positively to some aspect of the board, your ability to contribute there gets turned off. This is why we have political prisoners who can't post in GenDisc and no more Mobius on the wiki and so forth.
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This whole thread probably should've been handled by PM just like the original grievance, tho. A quick chat with Axem could've fixed it all up.
Now we get to metapost like it's 2009
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Unfortunately I had no idea who the moderator or admin was who gave the original punishment out was, so I couldn't just talk to them in PM and from what I know the mods and admins try to not step on each other's toes.
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Already we've reached the stage where this goes from small issue to meta-issue where everyone hauls out decade-old grievances!
Not what I was doing.
Just pointing out how Black Wolf hasn't taken any hints/learned anything from the previous drama. That and this, both could have been better handled with more transparancy and better communication (through PM or otherwise).
Make mods, play mods. If people are dicks in a certain capacity, stop them from being dicks in that capacity. Don't stop them from doing useful things (for example, beta testing for a team you're not even on).
True that tho.
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Unfortunately I had no idea who the moderator or admin was who gave the original punishment out was, so I couldn't just talk to them in PM and from what I know the mods and admins try to not step on each other's toes.
Whatever, it's all cool now. Let's just stop this thread before it turns into its own issue.
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Unfortunately I had no idea who the moderator or admin was who gave the original punishment out was, so I couldn't just talk to them in PM and from what I know the mods and admins try to not step on each other's toes.
That is true, but we also try to ask each other for advice and run more major stuff by each other before taking action. If there's ever a question about who's responsible for some particular action, you can ask any of us and we'll use our Secret Mod Telepathy (i.e. SMF's mod logs) to see who was responsible and let you know.
This whole thread probably should've been handled by PM just like the original grievance, tho. A quick chat with Axem could've fixed it all up.
Now we get to metapost like it's 2009
Wait you mean you don't miss those days? I was trying to go all #tbt but I'm perpetually late by a few days and I did it wrong. :(
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On a technical basis I think the whole warning points system should be disabled, though. Mods are human beings capable of thought: if they want to give someone a formal warning they can give them a formal warning, and if they want to restrict posting privileges they can restrict posting privileges. There's no need for forum software to second-guess them, especially in such an awkward and non-transparent way.
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I'll just say I really hate SMF's moderating features, they're not really good for this kind of community and are very binary (which is why Monkeying is a thing).
But I think its good to be clear and specific with the warnings and to sign a name to them so someone can go to them if they need clarification. I will surely do that and encourage all the other staff to do it as well.
So let's close this for now since I think the points have been made.
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I'll take a look to see if we can improve the default messages that the board hands out (That should be fairly easy).
I'll also investigate whether board moderators can approve posts when someone is moderated. They should be able to do so, it shouldn't require the actions of a global moderator to do it.
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Okay, I've altered the settings so that a user can see their own warning level. And I've added a bunch of templates that can automatically be sent when a user is given a warning. That should address quite a few of the concerns raised on this thread. I'm also going to give a 5% warning to everyone who posted on this thread so that they can see if the new system is better. It will be logged as a system test and won't affect your posting abilities.
I've also reopened this thread so that people can use it to give feedback on those changes. Try to stick to that rather than just general complaining though.
EDIT : Bloody hell! You lot look like a bunch of troublemakers now. :p I look fine though. Turns out SMF errors out if you try to give yourself a warning. :D
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MatthTheGeek,
You have received a warning because you posted on Hades thread about the warning system and thus have volunteered yourself to try out the upgrade Karajorma is trying out. You posted this message:Re: Dev posting w/ moderated posts (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?msg=1800083)
Had you actually done something wrong you would have received this message
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MatthTheGeek,
You have received a warning/ban (choose as applicable) for insulting other users and/or staff members in regards to the message: / posting offensive material in regards to the message: Re: Dev posting w/ moderated posts (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?msg=1800083)
This sort of activity goes against the community guidelines which you can read here (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=87037.0)
As a result you are not permitted to post on these forums for a period lasting <Fill in punishment length here> days.
After that time period is over, all posts you make for the next 48 hours will be moderated. They will not appear on the forum until approved by a member of the moderation staff.
Please cease these activities and abide by the forum rules otherwise we will take further action.
Regards,
The Hard Light Productions Forums Team.
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Please give any feedback about these changes on the thread.
I would add something about who sent the warning and/or who we can contact for further information about the warning.
So that means there's no way to restrict post moderating to specific subforums? Because the point is to sanction the user in question, not to sanction the people working with the user - as opposed to what we're actually doing so far, which basically punishes the wrong people.
If we can't let people work - both the moderated and the people trying to work with the moderated - we have to consider other courses of action. HLP has no reason to exist besides letting modders work together.
Also I don't see me watched right now, did you forget to give me 5% or am I unable to see my own moderated status?
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I gave some people 5% (which won't add them to the watched list) and some people 10%.
As for restrictions, I'm still not certain whether a board moderator can allow posts from a person under post moderation or not. I definitely couldn't see any controls allowing that sort of thing.
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Momma always told me I would get in trouble if I stuck around troublemakers too long. :sigh:
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I would add something about who sent the warning and/or who we can contact for further information about the warning.
This is a matter of the moderator/admin customizing the warning message. In the past, we've emphasized the need to let the individual know where he messed up and who he can talk to for further clarification. But it's easy for the staff member to forget, as they might be in a hurry, or think the offense is obvious. Threads like this are a good reminder of how it should be done.
So that means there's no way to restrict post moderating to specific subforums? Because the point is to sanction the user in question, not to sanction the people working with the user - as opposed to what we're actually doing so far, which basically punishes the wrong people.
I don't think subforum-specific warning is possible. But I'll look and see if there are any SMF forum mods to change this.
However, I disagree that this punishes the wrong people. A modder is perfectly capable of doing whatever work he needs to do to support his mod, first because all of the modding tools (FRED, Blender, even Notepad) are offline, and second because the warning does not prevent him from reading posts or PMming people.
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IRC is also unaffected, correct?
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I gave some people 5% (which won't add them to the watched list) and some people 10%.
As for restrictions, I'm still not certain whether a board moderator can allow posts from a person under post moderation or not. I definitely couldn't see any controls allowing that sort of thing.
I like the pm, you are doing good work
However, I disagree that this punishes the wrong people. A modder is perfectly capable of doing whatever work he needs to do to support his mod, first because all of the modding tools (FRED, Blender, even Notepad) are offline, and second because the warning does not prevent him from reading posts or PMming people.
Posting beta test results is not offline.
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New punishment/warning message is an improvement. As Matth already pointed out, could do with a who to contact for further information, but aside from that it looks fine to me.
However, I disagree that this punishes the wrong people. A modder is perfectly capable of doing whatever work he needs to do to support his mod, first because all of the modding tools (FRED, Blender, even Notepad) are offline, and second because the warning does not prevent him from reading posts or PMming people.
This very thread showed that it was punishing the wrong people, namely the BP team.
So that means there's no way to restrict post moderating to specific subforums? Because the point is to sanction the user in question, not to sanction the people working with the user - as opposed to what we're actually doing so far, which basically punishes the wrong people.
If we can't let people work - both the moderated and the people trying to work with the moderated - we have to consider other courses of action. HLP has no reason to exist besides letting modders work together.
This cannot be overstated. Thus I quote for truth.
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Well the question is whether a forum moderator can enable those posts. If they can, then it's up to you to enable those posts. While I can understand a certain element of frustration at not being able to get your feedback instantly, there is also an element of "Well, it was you who picked him".
It's sort of like depending on someone with a lot of criminal convictions. You've got to expect that there is a chance they might get put in jail at an inconvenient time. If you pick someone trustworthy, you're not really running that risk.
If on the other hand, forum moderators can't do that, then yeah, I can see that it is a problem that needs to be addressed.
That said, we can easily solve this problem regardless of that if people are prepared to accept a minor double standard . If you have a project badge, you simply get monkeyed and sent a warning for an offence that otherwise would have gotten you moderated or banned. It's a little unfair, but it's unfair in the direction of those who complained about being unable to post on internal forums.
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Forum moderators can enable posts, they're just not always awake (or in the same time zone).
Hades isn't gonna have a project badge, at least in the short run. He's a tester. Testers aren't selected for their civil behavior, they're selected for availability and quality of test output. If they're uncivil they should be rebuked in ways that target their incivility, not their test output.
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I'm happy to help.
I gave some people 5% (which won't add them to the watched list) and some people 10%.
As for restrictions, I'm still not certain whether a board moderator can allow posts from a person under post moderation or not. I definitely couldn't see any controls allowing that sort of thing.
Just to confirm, you gave me 10% and I can see that.
You could use the SockPuppet account to test this. Put it on moderated posts and try to post in Wings of Dawn with it and see if Spoon can allow the post.
About the message, if it automatically detects the level of punishment and informs the victim, then that can only be a good thing. I don't know if it's possible for it to automate detection of the person issuing the warning as well?
It's obviously possible for the person doing it to put in whatever text they want though, so they should be clear about what it's for and not be a dick themselves.
About the double standard I think it's okay. We're not in a position to be able to pick and choose talent.
It's good to see that we're getting to be part of bringing useful change, but this is like putting a sticking plaster over a paper cut while a deeper wound is gushing blood. I'm happy for us to get the sticking plaster applied, anything is better than nothing, but I hope there's room to do more.
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C'mon, this is 2015, not 1995. How are we still struggling with stuff like this? What happened to the future?
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Where's my flying DeLorean and Mattel hoverboard dammit?!?!
Re: the options for moderated project members, I guess what I'm left wondering is just how much a team member being unable to post for a day or two impacts mod progress in an era when it seems like just about every active mod has its own IRC channel and SVN and probably one or two other official means of extraforum team communication. And I'm not trying to cast doubts on anyone: if you say to me "yeah even with all of those other options this is a major issue," then I fully agree that we should implement alternate policies.
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I can say that from my experience, a mod having an active IRC channel is actually pretty rare.
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IRC is great for hashing things out or brainstorming (and making fun of Star Citizen, but I digresss), but its a terrible terrible avenue for making actual semi-permanent notes. I've only got 1 play tester for JAD and even after I get a live feedback session, I still need to go "hey what do I have to fix again?" and look back at the last few hours to pick up what. I couldn't imagine doing it for multiple people, I'd forget everything. Plus what if your fixers aren't on IRC at the time? Having a forum to record things like that is a good way to do it. A mantis could work too but I find that's only good for hard specific issues and less floaty "this mission needs some more zazz" feely ones.
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Where's my flying DeLorean and Mattel hoverboard dammit?!?!
Re: the options for moderated project members, I guess what I'm left wondering is just how much a team member being unable to post for a day or two impacts mod progress in an era when it seems like just about every active mod has its own IRC channel and SVN and probably one or two other official means of extraforum team communication. And I'm not trying to cast doubts on anyone: if you say to me "yeah even with all of those other options this is a major issue," then I fully agree that we should implement alternate policies.
BP has probably the most active IRC presence of any HLP project but we still absolutely need a forum to get things down in permanent form. Not all team members are going to be online all the time and I can't even remember what I'm doing long enough to keep it straight through an alt-tab.
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Posting beta test results is not offline.
I said warned members can still PM people (and you even quoted me saying that). Is there something wrong with a beta tester sending his reports by PM - to multiple people if necessary - instead of forum post?
And really, the fact that a warned member can't post on HLP ought to give him more free time for beta testing...
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Yep. PMs, even to multiple people, are not in the same threaded discussion as other beta information - they're functionally segregated. A user has to reply to posts via PM, moving his replies away from what they're replying to. This creates losses on task switching, which cognition is really bad at. It ****s up workflow and makes it harder for 'producers' inasmuch as anyone has them here to track information visibly.
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That is patently ridiculous. In the first place, if you are so fastidious about your workflow that you're worried about task switching, then you should be collaborating on Slack or something, not HLP. You could choose an environment suited to your needs and exercise full control over it.
In the second place, you can avoid the entire problem by simply copying the PM into the thread. Boom, now you've got all your discussion in one place, same as before.
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It's patently how we work best! HLP is a modding website, and its purpose is to be the best place to collaborate on FreeSpace mods. If it can't do that as well as some other service, it needs to step up!
It sounds like this issue's been handled - thanks for looking into it, Kara.
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That is patently ridiculous. In the first place, if you are so fastidious about your workflow that you're worried about task switching, then you should be collaborating on Slack or something, not HLP. You could choose an environment suited to your needs and exercise full control over it.
In the second place, you can avoid the entire problem by simply copying the PM into the thread. Boom, now you've got all your discussion in one place, same as before.
You, the administrator of a forum created as a resource for modders, are currently trying to convince a modder that he has no reason to use this forum for mod development because it isn't a useful resource for modders.
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You, the administrator of a forum created as a resource for modders, are currently trying to convince a modder that he has no reason to use this forum for mod development because it isn't a useful resource for modders.
No, that's not at all what I'm doing.
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Sure looks like it from where I'm standing.
If you are not doing that, then what? Are you just arguing with Battuta for the sake of arguing with Battuta? Cause if that is what you are doing, then I can only inform you that you are being destroyed in this argument.
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When I was at Bungle they actually insisted on multi-monitor setups just so people wouldn't have to waste time on swapping between windows, because taking information out of visual awareness was such a blow to moment-by-moment focus. I have no idea if it actually worked on a statistical level but it was good for me!
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But that is just a factoid, this thread has gotten its job done and I don't think we need to dogpile on anybody