Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Sandwich on July 31, 2002, 06:54:56 am
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http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/Flash1.html
I don't even know who to begin to call to see if they're alive, I know so many people who could be there. :(
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Oh god, this isn't the same as yesterday is it? This is something else... :(
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Michael, ever thought of leaving that battlefield?
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:mad::sigh::mad2:
:sigh: That happens almost everyday...
How many people live in Jerusalem?
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Originally posted by Thunder
Oh god, this isn't the same as yesterday is it? This is something else... :(
Well, it's the same, but different - if you know what I mean...
Originally posted by Black Sheep
Michael, ever thought of leaving that battlefield?
Honestly, no. Despite the situation, I love not only this country, but this city especially. And it's strange, but whenever someone around my age (20's) comes to Israel to visit, they usually end up falling in love with the place, too. Look at these quotes from a friend of mine who was here for 9 months - happened to land here on 9/11, actually. He recently returned to the US to go to law school.
"I'm doing ok here, but every once in a while I get an extreme urge like I have to get back to Israel right away."
"I'm doing alright here, but I'm still getting used to the idea of not being in the middle east. I know it sounds weird, but I kind of miss the danger and excitement of the place."
"I just watched a documentary on TV about the Israel violence thing. It was kind of hard watching all of the bombings and stuff I saw over there condensed into one show, inadequately covered, and set to sad music. I wanted to cry and throw the TV out the window at the same time. Also it's difficult adjusting to seeing those same images over here. I know it's more detached for the people watching the same program as me here but for me it's not detached. I don't know. It's weird."
Originally posted by Redfang
How many people live in Jerusalem?
Approximately 600,000.
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This is sick in the most extreme way possible, my condolences sandwich.
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Damn. It never ends, does it? :(
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:mad:
that's all I can say :(
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:( Sorry to see this happening again.
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Originally posted by Redfang
:mad::sigh::mad2:
:sigh: That happens almost everyday...
How many people live in Jerusalem?
and none of it even makes sence :sigh:
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:mad: Those ****ers ! this is just extreme ! :mad: :(
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Originally posted by Dr.Zer0
and none of it even makes sence :sigh:
You're partially right. It does to them, the terrorists, they want to terrorize. :mad::mad2:
I don't know why.
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Sorry if I'm acting like an idiot here, but what happened? The page won't load...
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Terror bombing kills 7, wounds 70 at Jerusalem university
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I probably shouldn't say this since it'll turn this thread into a politics thread but:
After seeing the images and story on BBC News online, I got a strange feeling. I got a flash of my own University and the people I know - and got a vague idea how I would feel should the UK be in the same position Israel is, I now see why despite so much opposition in the west, Israel launches so many military offensives with such determination.
Alright, thats it. My hopes are for all your friends to be alright Sandwich. :nod:
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Originally posted by darkage
:mad: Those ****ers ! this is just extreme ! :mad: :(
Nothing is extreme. Remember the 9/11?
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Originally posted by vyper
My hopes are for all your friends to be alright Sandwich. :nod:
:nod:
Even two people at HLP are from Jerusalem... :shaking:
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One death is a tragedy, one million is a statistic....
To put it bluntly, I really don't care any more. There is no obvious end in sight, and neither side can claim a real moral high ground.
Call me a sheltered North American if you want. I won't feel hurt.
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One death is a tragedy, one million is a statistic....
To put it bluntly, I really don't care any more. There is no obvious end in sight, and neither side can claim a real moral high ground.
I quite agree there, so just go at it and may the strongest side win, but that would be Israel. :D (same situation as with US and Afghanistan; both are "evil," whatever that means, but one is more powerful than the other) I personally think Israel should have occupied the entire region there long ago; the only way to deal with these guys is to come down hard on them, and if terrorism increases as a result, keep smashing them until they are all dead. :D
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UPDATE: Well, I've talked to the person I was primarily worried about; she's fine. She wasn't even on campus at the time - Thank God. :yes:
Apparently only 2 of the dead were Israelis; all the rest are from abroad. I wonder what the responses will be from those respective nations. :doubt: At least one of them was an American woman.
Shrike, you are such a sheltered North American... :rolleyes:
:p
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Apparently only 2 of the dead were Israelis; all the rest are from abroad. I wonder what the responses will be from those respective nations. :doubt: At least one of them was an American woman.
That's interesting; now maybe there be less of this pacifist nonsense come from the rest of the world. :D
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Who's pacifist? A good chunk of the world is rooting for one side or another. The US is producing much of Israel's munitions, the Arab nations are supporting the Palestinians. I don't see how much more involved the world can get without dividing off into alliances, a la WWI, and having at each other for real. If you're asking for World War 3 and the hard rain, be patient. No doubt, it will come someday, and you can die miserably off in the parasite-infested, exploding trenches of some foreign nation happy.
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You know...I normally try to stay reasonable on-the-fence... I hate the terrorists, but I also hate the force used against them, because it justifies (in their minds) thier actions - NOT that i'm oppossed to killing terrorists in any way....
but when you see something like this, when it happens to people who are basically in exactly the same situation as me except for the country they study in... it begins to hit home harder.
And to be honest, I hope they kill them all. Every single terrorist, every bombmaker, every person that sells them their C4, or timers, or whatever should be dragged screaming in the streets and shot.
Because I don't see any hope of peace, and chance of the same thing as happened in Ireland, and can happen (bar the idiocy of ETA) in Catalonia / the Basques....
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The dispute in the middle east has gone on for so long, it's hard to understand which side is in the wrong. You see the suicide bombings in the news, but you also get reports of who palestinean villages being destroyed by isreali forces. I can't see a clear end in sight either, both sides think they have rights to the land (which i beleive is what all the argument is about) and its not fair for an external force to decide who gets it.
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Originally posted by aldo_14
And to be honest, I hope they kill them all. Every single terrorist, every bombmaker, every person that sells them their C4, or timers, or whatever should be dragged screaming in the streets and shot.
I always held the (probably foolishly idealistic) view that to kill the terrorist is somewhat hypocritical. In any case it merely serves to strengthen the resolve of other extremists and rarely acts as a scare tactic which is usually the point.
Reading news like this makes me feel depressed and useless.
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Originally posted by Maeglamor
I always held the (probably foolishly idealistic) view that to kill the terrorist is somewhat hypocritical.
True, killing isnt the answer. Put them in prison for the rest of they're lives, but setting out to kill them is just lowering youself to they're irrational (in general) standards.
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Originally posted by beatspete
True, killing isnt the answer. Put them in prison for the rest of they're lives, but setting out to kill them is just lowering youself to they're irrational (in general) standards.
Perhaps, but what do you do when they are released from that prison by a supporting regeime so that they can continue on with their murderous plans? You. Take. Them. Out.
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...and that may be the reason why you will never end the war. Even if you were to kill every palestinian terrorist you still have their allies to deal with. Any other state you enter into conflict with will then know that ultimately you will have a 'no compromise' position. They will have few reservations about carrying out extremely violent acts and you'll have even more determined ennemies to deal with. :(
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Originally posted by sandwich
Perhaps, but what do you do when they are released from that prison by a supporting regeime so that they can continue on with their murderous plans? You. Take. Them. Out.
You realize that argument can be used to support suicide bombers as well, right?
What do you do when they are enlisted by an occupying regime so that they can continue on with their oppressive plans? You. Take. Them. Out.
See why I'm sick of the whole Isreal thing? So many of the arguments used by either side can be applied to the other by changing a few words. Every time something like this is brought up it just worsens the cycle.
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Every nation deserves to have a place they can call HOME.
The Israelis did, and so the Palestinians. And I don't believe that anyone can disagree with that.
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And why I can't edit my post? I have this problems 2 days with the board.
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True, killing isnt the answer. Put them in prison for the rest of they're lives, but setting out to kill them is just lowering youself to they're irrational (in general) standards.
Like I said, everyone is a terrorist, and everyone is at the same level of "moral standards" as far as that goes. Of course killing them makes you a terrorist as well, but that doesn't matter at all as long as you have the power to do so. You may be "lowering yourself to their standards," but that is not at all what is wrong with these terrorists in the first place; it is just that they are against the civilized world, and we show hostilities to them in return. Neither side is or can be any more "right" or "wrong" than the other. Therefore, keep killing them until they are all dead. :D
Who's pacifist? A good chunk of the world is rooting for one side or another. The US is producing much of Israel's munitions, the Arab nations are supporting the Palestinians.
I was thinking more of Europe, from where I have not been hearing anything but calls for peace lately. :p (in the mainstream, at least)
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Originally posted by Shrike
You realize that argument can be used to support suicide bombers as well, right?
What do you do when they are enlisted by an occupying regime so that they can continue on with their oppressive plans? You. Take. Them. Out.
how is killing a mother and child in a pizza parlor on his birthday going to get the people out of you're (from there perspective) land, if they were atacking military and\or political instalations you may have a point,
but the Isralis are shooting at the people shooting at there famelys, there defending themselves
the palistinians are shooting at people in parks, and schools, people not directly atacking them, they are placeing ther famelys around them as human sheilds and when someone gets killed they use it to further there political needs, that is why they are the bad guys
I don't live there so I can't say for sure, but as far as I know there generaly arn't people rileing everyone into a homosidal rage at the Israili funerals and recruting people into killing themselves in an atampt to cause as much pain to the palistinians as posable.
CP5670
Like I said, everyone is a terrorist, and everyone is at the same level of "moral standards" as far as that goes.
please tell me you were being sarcastic
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Originally posted by Shrike
You realize that argument can be used to support suicide bombers as well, right?
What do you do when they are enlisted by an occupying regime so that they can continue on with their oppressive plans? You. Take. Them. Out.
See why I'm sick of the whole Isreal thing? So many of the arguments used by either side can be applied to the other by changing a few words. Every time something like this is brought up it just worsens the cycle.
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UPDATE: Well, I've talked to the person I was primarily worried about; she's fine. She wasn't even on campus at the time - Thank God.
Good stuff Sandwich:)
Its terrible anyone was hurt though, and the international reaction to both this event and Israels response will be interesting.
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Originally posted by Snakeseyes
And why I can't edit my post? I have this problems 2 days with the board.
We are working on fixing this problem, no need to ask about it on every thread. :)
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Maeg: All news makes me feel depressed and useless, because all news is a litany of human suffering that one can watch whilst sitting down in the evening, say "isn't that terrible" and go to sleep thinking that you know and care about the rest of the world.
Without doing anything, naturally. :sigh:
It's terrible, as always, that someone - anyone - who is not militarily involved has been killed in the Middle East. I don't have anything to say; I'm getting jaded again like I did before.
The only thing I would say (because I can't just say nothing, you know me) is that all these generalizations have to stop. Bobboau, your posts make it sound like every single Palestinian is a terrorist bent on the annihilation of Israel and the creation of new Death Camps, and every Israeli an innocent defender. Such black/white moral divides don't exist anywhere; nor have they ever existed.
CP's posts on the other hand make it sound like every single human act is one of an ill-defined 'terrorism' - which is an amusingly absurd idea. I don't suppose that I'm committing an act of terror now except in the most obtuse way imaginable - say, some of you are easily upset and my comments in this post cause you terror ( :wtf: ) or if the pollution caused by the electricity the computer is using can be considered environmental terrorism. :p
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please tell me you were being sarcastic
Think about it; there is no way to determine any moral standards from a truly objective point of view, and thus morals have no meaning whatsoever when we move out of the individual and into the society. This is not a fight of "good" and "bad;" it is one side against another and nothing more. But I am heavily in support of Israel/US/etc. anyway because they have the science and technology. ;7
CP's posts on the other hand make it sound like every single human act is one of an ill-defined 'terrorism' - which is an amusingly absurd idea. I don't suppose that I'm committing an act of terror now except in the most obtuse way imaginable - say, some of you are easily upset and my comments in this post cause you terror ( :wtf: ) or if the pollution caused by the electricity the computer is using can be considered environmental terrorism. :p
Technically, yes, I could say you are commiting henious acts of terrorism as you are writing that. (and there probably are people in the world who do really think you are by using electricity :D) Who is to say whether or not you "really" are a terrorist? :p Until "terrorism" has been given a mathematically precise meaning (which to my knowledge it has not), this is how things stand.
On a side note I just got an upgrade for Mathematica 4.2 in the mail and it seems to be able to simplify productlog functions; w00t! :D
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Originally posted by CP5670
On a side note I just got an upgrade for Mathematica 4.2 in the mail and it seems to be able to simplify productlog functions; w00t! :D
Words can't express the joy I feel for you.
Go back to your consumption. Consumer. :p
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I take it you are dropping the argument, then? Too bad, I wanted to keep going. :D
Words can't express the joy I feel for you.
cool! :D
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Originally posted by CP5670
I take it you are dropping the argument, then? Too bad, I wanted to keep going. :D
Nah, I just wanted to be sarcastic. I'll take up the argument once I reason out my response.
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Originally posted by CP5670
Technically, yes, I could say you are commiting henious acts of terrorism as you are writing that. (and there probably are people in the world who do really think you are by using electricity :D) Who is to say whether or not you "really" are a terrorist? :p Until "terrorism" has been given a mathematically precise meaning (which to my knowledge it has not), this is how things stand.
You can't say I'm a terrorist. The term 'terror' has no meaning according to your rationale, because the experience of terror is not universal or replicable. It has no mathematical definition. Basically, 'terror' and 'terrorism' are just empty phrases given meanings which are mathematically irrational.
Therefore, nobody can be a terrorist. :D
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You can't say I'm a terrorist. The term 'terror' has no meaning according to your rationale, because the experience of terror is not universal or replicable. It has no mathematical definition. Basically, 'terror' and 'terrorism' are just empty phrases given meanings which are mathematically irrational.
Therefore, nobody can be a terrorist. :D
Exactly, but that also means that everyone is terrorist. Remember that an idea cannot really exist without its counterpart, and the system collapses into a contradiction for nonexistant ideas. Therefore, everybody and nobody is a terrorist at the same time; the two words mean the exact same thing when applied to things like this. A bit weird, I know, but then again, dealing with non-absolute ideas is always a strange experience. :D
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Originally posted by CP5670
Exactly, but that also means that everyone is terrorist. Remember that an idea cannot really exist without its counterpart, and the system collapses into a contradiction for nonexistant ideas. Therefore, everybody and nobody is a terrorist at the same time; the two words mean the exact same thing when applied to things like this. A bit weird, I know, but then again, dealing with non-absolute ideas is always a strange experience. :D
Damn it. You're right. :blah:
But I was too. So we can call it quits. :D
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okay, sounds good. :D
going back to the math now... :nervous:
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There are plenty more things to argue about but I must say that just for the sake of argument the mathematical/logical approach to debate is the most defensible and easy. That doesn't necessarily mean I believe in it as a method of government...yet... ;)
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You have a new system of argument that "works" but isn't logical? Let's give it a try. :D
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Originally posted by CP5670
You have a new system of argument that "works" but isn't logical? Let's give it a try. :D
Yes yes...I'm just not willing to accept some of your more radical views about society and about terrorism, etc. I guess the terrorism is what I have the biggest logical problem about, to come back to the original meaning of the thread.
Maybe though I'm just in sway to all of the traditional and conservative elements of society. :p
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Yes yes...I'm just not willing to accept some of your more radical views about society and about terrorism, etc. I guess the terrorism is what I have the biggest logical problem about, to come back to the original meaning of the thread.
That is fine, but you have not said why yet. :p :D
Maybe though I'm just in sway to all of the traditional and conservative elements of society. :p
I think the resistance to change for its own sake might getting to you; try turning into a radical guy. :D
On a side note, have you happened to have heard of a guy named Theodore Kazcynski, also known as the "Unabomber?" He somehow published a new article from jail a few days ago: I thought it was pretty funny. :D (there is a copy here http://www.panix.com/~clays/Una/ )
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by "the palistinians" I was refering to those invoved in hostilities, wich would be those involved in (I know I am going to butcher the spelling, but who cares) Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Hezbola, Al Oqsa Marters brigade, ect...
people who would dress there three month old childeren in a marters uniform is included
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Originally posted by Bobboau
people who would dress there three month old childeren in a marters uniform is included
They actually showed that pic to the "outside" world?!? Wow - I'm impressed! What news agency carried it?
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Originally posted by sandwich
They actually showed that pic to the "outside" world?!? Wow - I'm impressed! What news agency carried it?
All of them. Almost all anyway.
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I saw it on fox news, a lot, for a while anyway
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Originally posted by beatspete
True, killing isnt the answer. Put them in prison for the rest of they're lives, but setting out to kill them is just lowering youself to they're irrational (in general) standards.
We are talking about people who value death more than life.
Simply kiling them will actually give them what they want.
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Originally posted by killadonuts
We are talking about people who value death more than life.
Simply kiling them will actually give them what they want.
Yes but their death has to be an act of 'divine justice'. i.e. if you don't murder a whole bunch of civilians on the way out you don't get to heaven; That means you may as well kiss the dozen virgins and the Audi-TT that're supposed to be waiting for you goodbye.
What you really need to do is remove whoever it is that makes the bombers think it's worth it. It's simply brainwashing.
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Can somebody help me raise Vlad Dracula back from the dead? I mean seriously, the last time this guy got ahold of the turks he really F'ed them up! :D
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Originally posted by CP5670
That is fine, but you have not said why yet. :p :D
Partly this is because I don't yet really know why myself. Finding one's way to life-beliefs can take time and effort. :)
Part of what troubles me about your 'logical' perspective is its seeming incompatibility with human behaviour. Since emotions, as you say cannot be rationalized, mathematicized and predicted with certainty, they do not seem logical. Indeed, from a perspective of mathematical logic they would not seem to exist absolutely. However, they quite patently do exist IMO (although I'm sure that I'm making some kind of logical error there). Basically what I'm saying is that your applications of a logical viewpoint to human problems seem questionable given the inherently illogical nature of humanity.
Perhaps this is due to conflicting base views. From what I have read from you, your belief in the Universe and humans seems to be of determinism, biological psychology and so on - something which I disagree with on a base level (though I find it difficult to articulate due to the nature of the subject, and the fact that it's nearly midnight and I got up at 7AM this morning).
I think the resistance to change for its own sake might [be?] getting to you; try turning into a radical guy. :D
Oh, don't get me wrong; I don't oppose all change - or do you mean that I oppose changes that happen not for a reason, but because they can? Anyway, I'm considered fairly radical though not in the directions that you are... ;)
Of course I want change - but I want it on my terms, like all other humans.
Oh, and the Unabomber article is an interesting read. "The Dangers of Leftism" indeed; I would like to see a comparative "Dangers of Rightism" analysis. :)
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Originally posted by sandwich
They actually showed that pic to the "outside" world?!? Wow - I'm impressed! What news agency carried it?
It was in all the papers too.
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All I have to say is this:
The English had a good plan with their penal colony idea. Take the dangerous element out of society, and make it almost impossible to get back.
Unfortunately, combined with a bit of oppression, it led to many innocent and semi-innocent people being taken out of their homes. Which is why I probably have a lot of relatives in Georgia and Australia....
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Originally posted by Grey Wolf 2009
All I have to say is this:
The English had a good plan with their penal colony idea. Take the dangerous element out of society, and make it almost impossible to get back.
Unfortunately, combined with a bit of oppression, it led to many innocent and semi-innocent people being taken out of their homes. Which is why I probably have a lot of relatives in Georgia and Australia....
The US have Camp X-Ray for the Bin laden terrorists.
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Yeah, we put them in exposed cages by the thousands in the middle of a country we don't recognize as legitimate. Clever, if thoroughly evil.
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I was just saying, dump them somewhere where they can live and we don't have to worry about them ever getting off. Not putting htem in cages....
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That would be nice, but nowadays there IS no such place, short of the Moon, and even if the U.S. COULD isolate them, our justice system is revenge-based. We want to remove their human dignity and treat them as animals till the end of their days first; safety issues/reform/considerations for human rights come second.
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And that is probably why this country is going ot ****....
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We have been since the 50s. And we're only going to **** in some aspects, while other things stay the same or improve. Much like anywhere. We're more powerful than ever, for one thing...
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I know this is politically incorrect, but frankly, I'm not paying for these people to live nice and comfortable in some first class jail cell. Throw them in a 4*4 cell without creature comforts or hang them. Either one works for me, but I'm not feeding the kind of **** these people are.
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Who cares about politically incorrect? That's inhuman. Most of our POWs had nothing to do with the WTC or anything of the sort. Those that did are getting "special treatment", you'd better believe. Most of the guys we're lockign in cages like dogs, they're just some Afghan farmboy who joined the militia so he could feel he had some control over his life, or so that he wouldn't get shot. Or, he's a member of what would amount to a political party in Afghanistan. They're every bit as human as the rest of us, they just happen to be on the losing, and thus "wrong" or "evil", side.
We probably will end up executing them, anyway, since we really can't send them back home, and can't just leave them there.
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at the least they were fighting for the talaban, if this is all they were doing they've got what they deserve, minumum
how long do they remain there, untill we can determine what all they were doing and if they should be kept somewere else or let go, it'll probly be a few years (3-6)
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Partly this is because I don't yet really know why myself. Finding one's way to life-beliefs can take time and effort.
I think you are in the situation I was in a few years ago - an indecisive one, which is not bad at all actually; anyway, good luck on this pursuit. ;)
Part of what troubles me about your 'logical' perspective is its seeming incompatibility with human behaviour. Since emotions, as you say cannot be rationalized, mathematicized and predicted with certainty, they do not seem logical. Indeed, from a perspective of mathematical logic they would not seem to exist absolutely. However, they quite patently do exist IMO (although I'm sure that I'm making some kind of logical error there). Basically what I'm saying is that your applications of a logical viewpoint to human problems seem questionable given the inherently illogical nature of humanity.
Actually, I do not think the human is inherently illogical at all in the way you are talking of here; the human perfectly conforms to the rules of logic, but uses more sets of starting assumptions. In a truly universal sense, nothing that lies in the absolute can be at all illogical if the consistency assumption is to hold, but we as humans require some additional assumptions for actually discovering and understanding our reality in addition to merely existing within it and being a part of it. So in other words, all of our actions are logical from a universal perspective (e.g. even if everyone in the world "decides" to kill themselves, it will just be part of the workings of reality), but since our assumptions should be chosen so to minimize their quantity while maximizing the indeterminacies resolved, we can thus narrow down our systems of logical consistency much further than the actual workings of the universe. This was a subject I was stuck on for a long time actually: a system of purpose (where everything in the universe has a definite meaning and purpose) led to all sorts of contradictions, but one that eschewed all meaning left too many things uncertain to be of much use as an assumption, so I have currently settled on a system where purpose/meaning is a perceptual attribute of any object, idea, etc. but can be made into an absolute quantity by putting into material practice, and this forms a sort of synthetic interaction between the two. (kind of a combination of the ideas of Wittgenstein, Hegel and Russell) The same applies for any non-absolute idea. This tends to stem into details regarding the connections between the various perceptive realms and the absolute one, but I won't go too much into that topic right now.
Also, I actually do think that there will be some point in the future where science will have advanced far enough to predict human emotions with mathematical accuracy. There is the possibility that emotions stem from true random events of sorts and thus would be impossible to fully predict, but there has really been nothing to suggest the truth of this any more than the probabilistic nature of, say, elementary particles.
Looks like I rambled on quite a bit there; some of this stuff is rather hard to explain but I should have it made more precise in the coming years.
Perhaps this is due to conflicting base views. From what I have read from you, your belief in the Universe and humans seems to be of determinism, biological psychology and so on - something which I disagree with on a base level (though I find it difficult to articulate due to the nature of the subject, and the fact that it's nearly midnight and I got up at 7AM this morning).
Yes, that is about right for my assumptions, since it would be against the principles of induction to assume that the human would be a probabilistic unit in a truly deterministic universe as long as we have no additional information; either both are determinstic or both are probabilistic. (same reason that scientists assume that the laws of physics will hold in the next galaxy just as well as they do here) The alternative is of course the probabilistic system (quantum theory-style), but that would still amount to an effective deterministic system for our purposes as far as this topic goes. Also, it is 10PM here and I just woke up, so I will be awake until 6 or so. :D
Oh, don't get me wrong; I don't oppose all change - or do you mean that I oppose changes that happen not for a reason, but because they can? Anyway, I'm considered fairly radical though not in the directions that you are... ;)
Well, almost all of the world's population resists change simply because it is change, so as long as you don't fall into that trap, all is good. :D
Of course I want change - but I want it on my terms, like all other humans.
That sounds fine, but what exactly defined "your terms?" Those are subject to change from outside influences. ;)
Oh, and the Unabomber article is an interesting read. "The Dangers of Leftism" indeed; I would like to see a comparative "Dangers of Rightism" analysis. :)
hehe, you could probably find something like that elsewhere on the internet...
Who cares about politically incorrect? That's inhuman. Most of our POWs had nothing to do with the WTC or anything of the sort. Those that did are getting "special treatment", you'd better believe. Most of the guys we're lockign in cages like dogs, they're just some Afghan farmboy who joined the militia so he could feel he had some control over his life, or so that he wouldn't get shot. Or, he's a member of what would amount to a political party in Afghanistan. They're every bit as human as the rest of us, they just happen to be on the losing, and thus "wrong" or "evil", side.
We probably will end up executing them, anyway, since we really can't send them back home, and can't just leave them there.
You speak as if there is something wrong with that. Of course the US is the biggest, most evil monster in the world, but so what? This brutality should work well as long as it is publicized and thus these people made an example of to future hostiles. Although there is nothing that really defines "human" as an adjective, keep labeling them as "inhuman" anyway, because that will serve as a good propaganda technique to get the masses to follow. :D Although I do agree with your "who cares about politically incorrect" statement.
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The other thing that I really hate is the School of the Americas, the official US Government training center for terrorists :doubt:
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Bobbau: And the soldiers drafted during the Vietnam war all belonged in their POW camps? Modern war is not even a question of ideologies- with the information they had, the (very) few who had a choice in the matter of what side they were on would have chosen the Taliban as the least of many evils.
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the soldiers captured in Vietnam did beling in POW camps, they didn't deserve some of the treatment they got,
but that is irrelivent becase we arn't doing anything I would be terably upset at another contry doing to an American soldier if that soldier was captured by that contry while we were engaged in hostilitys with them.
further, this isn't a traditional war and as such these arn't technicaly POWs as described by the geneva convention, wich means were not leting them go untill we know if they are going to be a threat to us
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That was a war in the only sense a war is ever a war, but in case you haven't noticed the U.S. is taking a few liberties with our international treaties these days.
If you don't think locking them in filthy, cramped, exposed cages is something nasty to do to a person, perhaps you yourself wouldn't object to it, eh? Believe me, if the Afghans were doing that to captured American soldiers, the propoganda machine would be cranking out outrages by the hour. But since it's us, we haven't even heard anything about the Guantanamo camps since the first POWs arrived. They've dissapeared, which, to my knowledge, generally is a foreboding thing to happen. After all, the Jews dissapeared, too, in the Holocaust, as did dissenters under Stalin and a dozen others who American history books vilify.
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Originally posted by CP5670
...but I should have it made more precise in the coming years.
...Years?!?!? :shaking:
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Originally posted by sandwich
...Years?!?!? :shaking:
Yes, it is all part of The Plan.
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But Cuba is hot, exposed cages are probably better for them.
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Originally posted by Kellan
Yes, it is all part of The Plan.
*cries*
Oh, wait - there's a smiley for that: :(
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there being fed and are being given medical atention, they are being kept healthy, that is all that is required
if Sadam captures some of our guys while were beating him down and he puts them in cages,
as long as they are being fed, given water, medical atantion, arn't forced to do things that go againsed there religon (ie, Sadam doesn't force them at gun point to pray to Alah every day), I wouldn't be more upset than just by the fact that they got captured and are imprisoned
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Actually, it is a part of t|-|€ rlah®©™, which is even greater than The Plan™. :D I have a little under ten years to get all this stuff ready to keep things according to schedule. ;7
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Originally posted by CP5670
Actually, it is a part of t|-|€ rlah®©™, which is even greater than The Plan™. :D I have a little under ten years to get all this stuff ready to keep things according to schedule. ;7
You can cut your time in half if you'd just STOP USING THAT WEIRD-CHARACTER L33T-SPEAK!!!!! :p :D
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It is called §uÞª® |_€3t $re£k and is far superior to 1337 5p33k!! Actually it only takes me about a minute to write one of these things since I copy/paste a lot of the stuff. :D ;7
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Originally posted by CP5670
It is called §uÞª® |_€3t $re£k and is far superior to 1337 5p33k!! Actually it only takes me about a minute to write one of these things since I copy/paste a lot of the stuff. :D ;7
...I never got a reply as to how you do that... Someone said it was magic, and all went down hill into lockage from there... Granted I had a helping hand, but was doomed for lockage anyways.
Oh crap...I'm probably endangering this thread too... *runs*
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Sorry, I don't think I saw any post from you about this before. Anyway, there are basically two kinds of special characters I use here: nonstandard Arial characters, and Symbol characters. The Arial ones are contained in the normal Arial font but cannot be accessed through the keyboard directly. To use these, go to Start->run and type charmap; this will open a small program that comes with Windows and that allows you to copy/paste the special characters into the forum window. The rest of the unusual characters are Greek letters and are part of the Symbol font, so you can follow the same procedure with charmap but you have to also use the font tags when pasting it into the forum textbox. Quote one of my posts to see an example.
Now start writing all your posts using this procedure. :D
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Originally posted by CP5670
...which is even greater than The Plan™.
Nothing is greater than The Plan™, says the guy with admin powers. ;)
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Originally posted by CP5670
Actually it only takes me about a minute to write one of these things since I copy/paste a lot of the stuff. :D ;7
Pfft. It would take me a few minutes to code a program that does the translation automatically. :p :rolleyes:
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I think CP has been looking at a certain campaign website :P
|>|-|34|2 73|-| |>14/\/
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thank you for derailing this discusion :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Bobboau
thank you for derailing this discusion :rolleyes:
Dont look at me, CP5670 started it :P
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there was a bus bombing today wasn't there?
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i'm just going ot take a wild guess that this thread has gone horribly off topic
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not untill someone started talking about leet speak,
there are people dieing, getting riped apart, and this is the best we can do :sigh:
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Originally posted by Bobboau
not untill someone started talking about leet speak,
there are people dieing, getting riped apart, and this is the best we can do :sigh:
Face it, people get ripped apart in innumerable mindless conflicts every single day. It's hard enough for the acerage person to keep up with what's actually happening in every place, let alone how, why, etc. After all, we're ignoring the suffering of a great number more Muslims in Kashmir by focusing on Israel so much; ignoring the plight of Sri Lanka by focusing on those two and the situation in the Philippines, Chechnya (which is probably the worst modern example, IMO) and so on.
Add to that all the suffering from famine, disease, homelessness and immigration (ie. Afghanistani asylum seekers) and there's just an information overload of suffering about which we know only the most rudimentary amount. How can we be so cruel as to focus on one conflict?
Basically, all this talk of intractable slaughter makes one jaded to the point where you couldn't give a damn, eventually.
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okay, so im going to try to underail the topic.
israel and palestine- its gone beyond stupidity. (sorry sandwich, you can contradict me if you like) someone said that a million murders is just a statistic... people get bored with the same news every day, even if every single bit of it is a tragedy. people forget. its impossible for a human mind to consciously remember all the horrific occurances it hears about all the time. we'd go mad if we did.
having said that, id like to add that i feel bad. it probably doesnt count to anyone, but- why would grief concern anyone except the one grieving? what would i know of grief? so yeah, since it has no effect on anyone except me...
i dont think they're fighting over land. they're just fighting, now. its like its in their blood, except... its a fatal disease.
CP, you're just damn depressing. im not going to bother trying to refute your arguments. im not even online often enough.
there is nothing to be done to give peace. the way of the world is to war.
sorry everyone, im depressed. for whatever its worth, im sorry.
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Originally posted by Bobboau
there was a bus bombing today wasn't there?
Yeah, or, yesterday, by now. :( Four terrorist attacks, actually, the largest of which was the bus bombing, occurred yesterday, with another shooting right after midnight this morning. 13 dead, all total. The attack this morning resulted in the deaths of a husband and wife, who was pregnant, in their car. Their 3-yr old son was moderately wounded, while the 9-month old was unharmed.
Here (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/headlines.php3?day=4&month=8&year=2002)'s a page with the updates from yesterday.
Originally posted by icespeed
okay, so im going to try to underail the topic.
israel and palestine- its gone beyond stupidity. (sorry sandwich, you can contradict me if you like) someone said that a million murders is just a statistic... people get bored with the same news every day, even if every single bit of it is a tragedy. people forget. its impossible for a human mind to consciously remember all the horrific occurances it hears about all the time. we'd go mad if we did.
having said that, id like to add that i feel bad. it probably doesnt count to anyone, but- why would grief concern anyone except the one grieving? what would i know of grief? so yeah, since it has no effect on anyone except me...
i dont think they're fighting over land. they're just fighting, now. its like its in their blood, except... its a fatal disease.
CP, you're just damn depressing. im not going to bother trying to refute your arguments. im not even online often enough.
there is nothing to be done to give peace. the way of the world is to war.
sorry everyone, im depressed. for whatever its worth, im sorry.
Couple of things to respond to. First off, yeah, I've become numbed in a way. I fully realize that it will be quite a shock, to say the least, when eventually someone I know gets injured or killed. Thank God that hasn't happened yet.
And this conflict is not about the "Occupied Territories". It's about the very existance of the Jews here.
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=27632
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Originally posted by sandwich
And this conflict is not about the "Occupied Territories". It's about the very existance of the Jews here.
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=27632
That's somewhat disingenuous, but I can't be bothered to argue the point right now. Whilst I'm not as depressed at the hopelessness of world situations as icespeed, I'm beginning to question why I should really give a **** about Israel over Kashmir or Chechnya that I'm ignoring otherwise. :doubt:
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Nothing is greater than The Plan™, says the guy with admin powers.
we shall see... ;7
Pfft. It would take me a few minutes to code a program that does the translation automatically. :p :rolleyes:
Okay, but that is a few minutes as compared to a single minute. :D
I think CP has been looking at a certain campaign website :P
eh? :confused:
CP, you're just damn depressing. im not going to bother trying to refute your arguments. im not even online often enough.
Depressing or not, the arguments make sense, and that actually makes them enlivening. The mathematician Hardy once told a friend of his, "If I could prove by logic that you would die in five minutes, I should be sorry you were going to die, but my sorrow would be very much mitigated by pleasure in the proof." :D
I'm beginning to question why I should really give a **** about Israel over Kashmir or Chechnya that I'm ignoring otherwise
It is interesting to speculate on the situations anyway though, since the man lives to think. :D
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Originally posted by CP5670
It is interesting to speculate on the situations anyway though, since the man lives to think. :D
Interesting but depressing and ultimately futile. We can speculate all we want but it doesn't do one bit of immediate difference on the ground. Unless you believe in some kind of ridiculous trickle-up effect whereby Colin Powell and Ariel Sharon are secret FS2 fanboys and read every post here. :lol:
*imagines this solving a lot of the world's problems*
:lol:
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Originally posted by Kellan
Unless you believe in some kind of ridiculous trickle-up effect whereby Colin Powell and Ariel Sharon are secret FS2 fanboys and read every post here. :lol:
*imagines this solving a lot of the world's problems*
:lol:
We should be so lucky! *sigh* :p
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Originally posted by Kellan
I'm beginning to question why I should really give a **** about Israel over Kashmir or Chechnya that I'm ignoring otherwise. :doubt:
1) becase it's fun to argue about things we have absolutly no controle over
2) we have no Kashmiries in the forum, and I don't know about Chechans, but I don't remember any. but we do have at least two Israelies.
3) would you like to talk about some other hopeless blood fued between two relitively small number of people killing each other for generations simply becase the other side is still alive.
Kashmir is a good one, it seems fairly simple, it needs to be ether a seperate contry or given to Pakistan being the only muslim majority teritory in India,
why does India want it so badly?
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1) becase it's fun to argue about things we have absolutly no controle over
Exactly. :D
why does India want it so badly?
The strategic location mainly; the mountaneous terrain there is right at the national border and thus makes for a very good artillery emplacement position in wartime.
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but isn't the only thing they ever go to war over is Kashmir?
(and the fact that they hate each other)
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Well, I think the second part is more correct; they hate each other. :D (and for good reason) Therefore, such a location would be quite valuable.