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Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Kazan on August 06, 2002, 09:43:28 am

Title: Stick this in your probability pipe and smoke it
Post by: Kazan on August 06, 2002, 09:43:28 am: http://www3.cosmiverse.com/news/space/0802/space08050201.html

that means there were two independant abiogenesis in the same solar system
Title: Re: Stick this in your probability pipe and smoke it
Post by: vyper on August 06, 2002, 10:13:16 am: Quote
Originally posted by Kazan
http://www3.cosmiverse.com/news/space/0802/space08050201.html

that means there were two independant abiogenesis in the same solar system

:thepimp: Very well, I shall!

*coughs and splutters*

Makes interesting reading... I still won't get excited about this until an alien pops up and says hello tho.
Title: Stick this in your probability pipe and smoke it
Post by: DragonClaw on August 06, 2002, 10:13:46 am: Or they could be totally mistaken and the rock is just from Earth?

I mean, jeez, it said "meteorite BELIEVED to be from Mars"
Title: Re: Re: Stick this in your probability pipe and smoke it
Post by: Redfang on August 06, 2002, 10:19:36 am: Quote
Originally posted by vyper
I still won't get excited about this until an alien pops up and says hello tho.

What if they won't say hello, but open fire? And cut your heads and throw them to boxes? :headz:
Title: Stick this in your probability pipe and smoke it
Post by: StratComm on August 06, 2002, 10:24:09 am: Actually, if the conditions are right, the probability that life will develop on a suitable world is fairly high. Mars and Earth have similar elemental makeup, similar masses (thus similar gravity), and both contain water, have atmospheres, and maintan temperatures within the liquid phase of water through much of the year. Mars is a bit on the cold side of the "habitable zone" but it is within it, so the odds of life developing have always been thought much higher than on, say, a Jupiter-sized gas giant orbiting a large, turbulent star in a ten day period. Truth is, we have no data on biogenesis (or lack therof) in any star system other than our own, and we don't know even remotely close to the actual probability of the development of life on a suitable world.
Title: Stick this in your probability pipe and smoke it
Post by: Bobboau on August 06, 2002, 10:38:23 am: I'm not going to jump up and down untill they find these on Mars it'self, the fact that these indicaters point to life that is just like anything on earth points to some post impact contamination. and it is odd that this is the only martian metiorite to have this evedence.
Title: Stick this in your probability pipe and smoke it
Post by: Dark_4ce on August 06, 2002, 10:43:50 am: I'm not all that exited about this whole microbes on mars thing. Yeah, it would be a great discovery and solid proof that life is out there. But I've basically taken it for a fact. I mean if were the only ones in this universe, it would be an awful lot of wasted space. but if they begin to find like Martian space monkey or some sort of giant arachnid with a mean temper, then I'll get exited! :D
Title: Stick this in your probability pipe and smoke it
Post by: CP5670 on August 06, 2002, 10:48:01 am: It is interesting no doubt, but like others, I still remain somewhat skeptical until more evidence is found, since there a lot of other important factors that also need to be favorable for "intelligent" life to come up. (these small bacterium groups might well be around, but that does not imply the existence of more advanced creatures)
Title: Stick this in your probability pipe and smoke it
Post by: Dark_4ce on August 06, 2002, 10:50:06 am: How about "intelligent" microbes?! ;7
Title: Stick this in your probability pipe and smoke it
Post by: Zeronet on August 06, 2002, 10:52:46 am: This proves that life has developed elsewhere in the universe and the fact is developed in the same solar system means the probability of life outside the solar system is greater.
Title: Stick this in your probability pipe and smoke it
Post by: CP5670 on August 06, 2002, 11:02:17 am: Quote
How about "intelligent" microbes?! ;7

well I guess to be classified as intelligent they need technology, which starts from fire, but how would these microbes create a fire? :D

Quote
This proves that life has developed elsewhere in the universe and the fact is developed in the same solar system means the probability of life outside the solar system is greater.

Oh yeah, I also think that the probability of life (or heck, even intelligent life) somewhere in the universe is actually very high.
Title: Stick this in your probability pipe and smoke it
Post by: Styxx on August 06, 2002, 11:43:23 am: Quote
Originally posted by CP5670
well I guess to be classified as intelligent they need technology, which starts from fire, but how would these microbes create a fire? :D

Dunno, they could drop by at the local K-Mart and buy some matches... :p :D
Title: Stick this in your probability pipe and smoke it
Post by: Kellan on August 06, 2002, 12:02:29 pm: Quote
Originally posted by CP5670

well I guess to be classified as intelligent they need technology, which starts from fire, but how would these microbes create a fire? :D

Nah; what if they could combine combustible chemicals as a heat source within their bodies or something? I guess what you're looking for here - a definition of 'intelligence' is so rooted in human experience that we can't comprehend other forms of intelligence. I mean, people would ask how anything could be intelligent in a way other than we are, and set impossible tests for it.

I guess a microbe could have nothing more than instinctual intelligence unless there's some weird group-mind shenanigans going on.

But enough of these microbes. They're hardly front-page exciting.
Title: Stick this in your probability pipe and smoke it
Post by: Dark_4ce on August 06, 2002, 12:30:33 pm: Yeah! Lets talk about those ill-tempered Arachnids! :D
Title: Stick this in your probability pipe and smoke it
Post by: Kazan on August 06, 2002, 01:40:19 pm: they have already ruled out post-impact contaiminatio - for example there were now pores i the rock for the contaiminates to get into that spot in the rock, the dates on them, etc
Title: Stick this in your probability pipe and smoke it
Post by: Zeronet on August 06, 2002, 01:44:59 pm: Quote
Originally posted by Kellan

Nah; what if they could combine combustible chemicals as a heat source within their bodies or something? I guess what you're looking for here - a definition of 'intelligence' is so rooted in human experience that we can't comprehend other forms of intelligence. I mean, people would ask how anything could be intelligent in a way other than we are, and set impossible tests for it.

I guess a microbe could have nothing more than instinctual intelligence unless there's some weird group-mind shenanigans going on.

But enough of these microbes. They're hardly front-page exciting.

Its life, nomatter how you view it and it proves life can develop on worlds other than our own.
Title: Stick this in your probability pipe and smoke it
Post by: Kellan on August 06, 2002, 01:51:34 pm: Quote
Originally posted by Zeronet

Its life, nomatter how you view it and it proves life can develop on worlds other than our own.

But that was never really in doubt.
Title: Stick this in your probability pipe and smoke it
Post by: Kazan on August 06, 2002, 01:54:41 pm: it was to some people that shall remain nameless
Title: Stick this in your probability pipe and smoke it
Post by: Kellan on August 06, 2002, 01:58:20 pm: Quote
Originally posted by Kazan
it was to some people that shall remain nameless

You mean God Botherers™? :p :D
Title: Stick this in your probability pipe and smoke it
Post by: Kazan on August 06, 2002, 02:22:15 pm: Falwellities
Title: Stick this in your probability pipe and smoke it
Post by: Shrike on August 06, 2002, 02:23:30 pm: I remember the last time they went on about Martian bacteria. :p
Title: Stick this in your probability pipe and smoke it
Post by: Kazan on August 06, 2002, 02:27:49 pm: they weren't using as good of testing practicies and techniques
Title: Stick this in your probability pipe and smoke it
Post by: CP5670 on August 06, 2002, 03:05:09 pm: Quote
Nah; what if they could combine combustible chemicals as a heat source within their bodies or something? I guess what you're looking for here - a definition of 'intelligence' is so rooted in human experience that we can't comprehend other forms of intelligence. I mean, people would ask how anything could be intelligent in a way other than we are, and set impossible tests for it.

You could say that, but what then is your generalized definition of intelligence? :D (aside from gaining knowledge about the universe in general, which is the usual definition)
Title: Stick this in your probability pipe and smoke it
Post by: Shrike on August 06, 2002, 03:06:04 pm: Quote
Originally posted by Kazan
they weren't using as good of testing practicies and techniques
So? It wasn't really earth-shattering then, and it's not earth-shattering now. ;)
Title: Stick this in your probability pipe and smoke it
Post by: aldo_14 on August 06, 2002, 04:01:24 pm: Quote
Originally posted by CP5670

well I guess to be classified as intelligent they need technology, which starts from fire, but how would these microbes create a fire? :D

That depends on your definition of 'technology' - it may be thatr (for example) a microbe conciously develops telekinetic powers that negate the use of transport, etc..... odds are that any aliens we encounter will have a completely different form of perception of the universe, yadayadayada.
Title: Stick this in your probability pipe and smoke it
Post by: demon442 on August 06, 2002, 10:10:28 pm: *whips out his probability pipe**packs in the article**whips out his green flame torch lighter**takes giant hit*
Title: Stick this in your probability pipe and smoke it
Post by: Nico on August 07, 2002, 02:20:53 am: MWAHAHAHAHA!
agian? :lol:
it's not the first time they find a "martian" asteroid with bacteries on it. they'll have to apologize again very soon :p
Title: Stick this in your probability pipe and smoke it
Post by: Kellan on August 07, 2002, 08:23:07 am: Quote
Originally posted by Kazan
Falwellities

As an interesting side note, the official position of the main Christian bodies does not deny entirely that extraterrestrial life may exist. It's merely given qualification. The Vatican definitions are as follows:

If extraterrestrial life exists, it must be either:

A. Living and intelligent but without a soul, and thus lesser than human beings.

B. Existing in a state of Pre-Fall prefection, since they were never tempted by the Serpent and inhabit a paradise. In this situation, humans should avoid contact with them because we are tainted and should not by association taint them.

C. Creations of the devil meant to tempt humans from the rightful path of God. In this situation they should be avoided because they are a temptation, etc etc.

---

Fairly interesting, IMO - especially the way in which the Church seeks to restrict contact between hypothetical species.
Title: Stick this in your probability pipe and smoke it
Post by: Kazan on August 07, 2002, 08:49:21 am: Quote
Originally posted by Shrike
So? It wasn't really earth-shattering then, and it's not earth-shattering now. ;)

i was talking about your "last time"
Title: Stick this in your probability pipe and smoke it
Post by: Kazan on August 07, 2002, 08:51:00 am: hey kellan, you know what that is - a lot of neurotheotically induced bull****ting
Title: Stick this in your probability pipe and smoke it
Post by: Styxx on August 07, 2002, 08:51:40 am: Quote
Originally posted by Kellan
Fairly interesting, IMO - especially the way in which the Church seeks to restrict contact between hypothetical species.

That's because they know what is out there... :nervous:
Title: Stick this in your probability pipe and smoke it
Post by: Kellan on August 07, 2002, 09:00:33 am: Quote
Originally posted by Kazan
hey kellan, you know what that is - a lot of neurotheotically induced bull****ting

By whom? Them or me? :confused:
Title: Stick this in your probability pipe and smoke it
Post by: Kazan on August 07, 2002, 09:01:15 am: by them
Title: Stick this in your probability pipe and smoke it
Post by: Kellan on August 07, 2002, 09:03:48 am: Oh, that's okay then.

And yes, they're trying to cover their bases and show that their religion 'accounts' for everything that God created and cannot be wrong, etc etc. Which just proves how nervous they are.
Title: Stick this in your probability pipe and smoke it
Post by: CP5670 on August 07, 2002, 09:46:25 am: If humans encounter extraterrestrial intelligent life within our lifetime, it will be very interesting to see how these churches respond to it. :D
Title: Stick this in your probability pipe and smoke it
Post by: delta_7890 on August 07, 2002, 10:15:30 am: Quote
Originally posted by CP5670
If humans encounter extraterrestrial intelligent life within our lifetime, it will be very interesting to see how these churches respond to it. :D

They'll try to convert them. ^^;
Title: Stick this in your probability pipe and smoke it
Post by: Zeronet on August 07, 2002, 10:31:39 am: God created them as well.
Title: Stick this in your probability pipe and smoke it
Post by: Redfang on August 07, 2002, 10:41:35 am: Quote
Originally posted by Zeronet
God created them as well.

Yes, that's how it goes. I know you know.

:rolleyes:

Edit: Of course that might[/i] be so, but you have no proof.
Title: Stick this in your probability pipe and smoke it
Post by: CP5670 on August 07, 2002, 10:42:45 am: Quote
God created them as well.

That is fine (for now); what is not fine is saying that humans are the "superior species" or something. :p
Title: Stick this in your probability pipe and smoke it
Post by: Bobboau on August 07, 2002, 10:44:00 am: then next day there will be a space race develop between the christians, jews, and muslums, christians will win and darken the skys with a fleet of "arcs" filled with merc... I mean misonaries.
:lol:

I'm still waiting for direct from mars evedence, it won't be much longer, if some random point on the planet was so heavily populated by bacteria that when hit by a meteor there were enough to survive (or the fosils of them) all the way to earth,
then the planet should be over run with this stuf
if there was once life there I would think it is still there, as once life starts it is very hard to get rid of it
Title: Stick this in your probability pipe and smoke it
Post by: Kellan on August 07, 2002, 11:00:28 am: Quote
Originally posted by CP5670
That is fine (for now); what is not fine is saying that humans are the "superior species" or something. :p

Saying God created them is the easy way out. :p

And basically, the Church's position on aliens is that they're either inhabitants of Heaven, missionaries from Hell or a lesser species. As I said above. If you want to read about this I'd recommend A Case of Conscience by James Blish. Good book.
Title: Stick this in your probability pipe and smoke it
Post by: Dark_4ce on August 07, 2002, 01:29:48 pm: You know, if they find life on Mars, there still be skeptics... Even if there is HARD PROOF! They'll go "Well, it was luck..." or "Well, look were basically made up of the same stuff so they're not alien species." So the next BIG thing to search for is life based on silicon or something. And probably even then, they wont be happy...
Title: Stick this in your probability pipe and smoke it
Post by: Kellan on August 07, 2002, 03:44:13 pm: No, what we need to find are aliens who don't have any concept of religion. :)
Title: Stick this in your probability pipe and smoke it
Post by: Kazan on August 07, 2002, 03:57:42 pm: Quote
Originally posted by Bobboau
then next day there will be a space race develop between the christians, jews, and muslums, christians will win and darken the skys with a fleet of "arcs" filled with merc... I mean misonaries.
:lol:

I'm still waiting for direct from mars evedence, it won't be much longer, if some random point on the planet was so heavily populated by bacteria that when hit by a meteor there were enough to survive (or the fosils of them) all the way to earth,
then the planet should be over run with this stuf
if there was once life there I would think it is still there, as once life starts it is very hard to get rid of it

mars is on the extreme cold limit of the habitable zone, possibly even beyond it - we know that it ones had a magnetic field [from rock magnetism being polarly aligned like it is on earth]

we also know there is water on mars, it's simply frozen

We Also know here on earth if our core were to go cold we'd end up a cold, lifeless rock, and our magnetic field would cease to exist

put it togeather
Title: Stick this in your probability pipe and smoke it
Post by: CP5670 on August 07, 2002, 04:45:46 pm: Quote
No, what we need to find are aliens who don't have any concept of religion. :)

That should be pretty easy if their society evolved differently, but they might have other strange concepts. :D
Title: Stick this in your probability pipe and smoke it
Post by: Fineus on August 07, 2002, 04:48:51 pm: I don't see it easy at all to be honest - I mean any society with a concept of the question "how did we get here?" must have come across the idea that they were put there for a purpose and for that there was something that did the putting. Therefore part of that society might dedicate itself to worshipping that idea and from that we get religion (in a rather basic - and my own - understanding).

All I'm saying is any race developed to human levels of thought may and probably has asked itself that question at least once.
Title: Stick this in your probability pipe and smoke it
Post by: Stealth on August 07, 2002, 04:55:26 pm: so what do you think thunder?

do you think we've been put here for a purpose? do you believe in religion?
Title: Stick this in your probability pipe and smoke it
Post by: Fineus on August 07, 2002, 05:00:41 pm: Shrikes going to love this (look at his sig to see why ;) EDIT: Ah, I see he's changed his sig since a couple of weeks ago... ho hum)

Whilst I realise that in most cases (including mine) religion is necessary as something to look to, something to fill the gap if you will - I don't feel it should constrict a person as much as many do, so I'm angling more and more to that of Wicca. Whilst I've only looked into it for about 6 months to a year now it seems to make more and more sense in the way of providing what someone should ask for out of a religion - moral values and something to believe in, it doesn't inhibit a person or impose unreasonable rules on them - it also (and more importantly in some cases) doesn't ask the person to hate followers of other religions, something I think more and more people are loosing the plot with these days.

Suffice to say it's still early days, but that's what I'm coming to think. As for wether we were put here for a reason? I don't know - but I'm only 18, I think coming to a conclusion about that kinda thing at this point is a bit premature.
Title: Stick this in your probability pipe and smoke it
Post by: CP5670 on August 07, 2002, 05:48:34 pm: Quote
I don't see it easy at all to be honest - I mean any society with a concept of the question "how did we get here?" must have come across the idea that they were put there for a purpose and for that there was something that did the putting. Therefore part of that society might dedicate itself to worshipping that idea and from that we get religion (in a rather basic - and my own - understanding).

Maybe that is only our mode of thought though; perhaps other species will instead say that their future descendants created a time machine and put in a new past, and this went on in an infinite sequence. ;) (I can see some flaws in this line of reasoning, but they might not ;))

Quote
Suffice to say it's still early days, but that's what I'm coming to think. As for wether we were put here for a reason? I don't know - but I'm only 18, I think coming to a conclusion about that kinda thing at this point is a bit premature.

Hey I have reached a suitable conclusion and I am 15; the next ten years will be spent fleshing out the details into a more coherent system. :D (you may hear of me later on ;7 :D)
Title: Stick this in your probability pipe and smoke it
Post by: beatspete on August 07, 2002, 06:10:07 pm: ....yes, bacteria could have traveled to/from earth to start life. I saw a program today about it, and they ran tests on samples of bacteria, firing them from a rifle. They found the bacteria could easilly survive 100000 G's of acceleration, and 300000G of deceleration. They theorised that in the instant after the impact, the bacteria would reform themselves back to normal. To confirm it, they did a test in 0 gravity, and saw that the bacteria didn't re-arange properly. They worked out that the bacteria use a gravitational field (ie of a planet) to realign themselves.
What this means for life on other planets, i dont know :doh:

Perhaps an alien race has no religion. Perhaps it is one hive mind and has no intrest in religion or how it got there, only its future expansion. A race of mind readers (theres a bigger word ending in ...path but i cant think of it) could evolve into one single mind. Similar to the Borg, except not mechanical.
I think its just our curiosity as humans that drives us to wonder where we came from. And religion is the product of fear of where we might have come from. I mean, what if we found out we are just bacteria living in the feicies of galaxy sized creatures? Would you accept it? No, you'd create a religion to tell you you are here to make peace and happiness.

Personally i neve think much about where life on earth came from, i tend to think more about where i came from. Technically i am just a conseince being fed sensory input. And how do i know that what i am told happened before i was born, did actually happen? How do i know anything before exactly now happened? All i have to go on is memories, and what can they really proove?
I've gone crazy (again). Good night people.
Title: Stick this in your probability pipe and smoke it
Post by: Bobboau on August 07, 2002, 09:49:18 pm: I'm not disagreeing with this, at the moment, I think it is more likely than not that there was (and if there was than there probly still is) life on mars, but I don't think it is conclusive,
I want something I can hold up and no one can deny it
Title: Stick this in your probability pipe and smoke it
Post by: Kellan on August 08, 2002, 02:58:28 am: Quote
Originally posted by CP5670
Maybe that is only our mode of thought though; perhaps other species will instead say that their future descendants created a time machine and put in a new past, and this went on in an infinite sequence. ;) (I can see some flaws in this line of reasoning, but they might not ;))

I agree that it's quite possible an extraterrestrial race could have very different values to our own societies. Whilst we can look at human societies and see common threads of language, religion and so on, humans share a common biology and environment. This is without mentioning that the various societies interact, leading to the spreading of ideas.

However, we can't know that an entirely separate society will share any values with ours. They might eat their young or kill their parents. We only find it impossible to believe that an entire race could not believe in God(s) because it's so deeply ingrained into most humans' psyches.
Title: Stick this in your probability pipe and smoke it
Post by: Megadude on August 08, 2002, 03:47:28 pm: To be brutally honest, i don't believe in God. If this offends anyone, go to your mommy and cry. I don't believe in the bible or the devil or anything a religion might include. I think the bible is just a bunch of stories used to teach morals (which i do have). I think that saying God created us is ludicrous. I cringe when people give credit to god for the things they've accomplished withe their boold and sweat. I don't believe in fate or destiny. I believe in goals and integrity and morals. I believe in are human characteristics. I am cynical person and I have every right to be one.

As for ET life, I think it is inevitable. Scientists have discovered bacteria living off of sulfur gas and metal. There are lifeforms in ocean trenches and encased in ice in Antartica. I have no doubt that mars has life. I have no doubt that Europa has life. To believe that we are special is farcical. To believe we were put here for a purpose is simply someone trying to justify their existence (which i don't have to do; i just live and be happy). To believe there are no other intelligent lifeforms is showing your ignorance. To ignore everything i said is showing that u don't have an open mind. If people don't have an open mind, humanity is doomed.

I said my piece,
L'Etoile Noir
Title: Stick this in your probability pipe and smoke it
Post by: Megadude on August 08, 2002, 03:50:40 pm: perhaps i should've posted in OT: Explain the universe

or not
Title: Stick this in your probability pipe and smoke it
Post by: Kellan on August 09, 2002, 05:03:52 am: Quote
Originally posted by Megadude
I am cynical person and I have every right to be one.

"A cynic is a person who knows the price of everything, and the value of nothing."

No wait, I'm a cynic too. I believe in all that stuff as well. Oh. Damn. :D
Title: Stick this in your probability pipe and smoke it
Post by: Fineus on August 09, 2002, 06:36:51 am: But you can be a cynic and an optimist, being a cynic doesn't always mean you're a universal cynic. I'm cynical about anything large corporations say at the moment but there's nothing to stop me being an optimist about other things...
Title: Stick this in your probability pipe and smoke it
Post by: Kellan on August 09, 2002, 06:49:52 am: Quote
Originally posted by Thunder
But you can be a cynic and an optimist, being a cynic doesn't always mean you're a universal cynic. I'm cynical about anything large corporations say at the moment but there's nothing to stop me being an optimist about other things...

Hey, don't blame me for what other, more cynical people said. :)
Title: Stick this in your probability pipe and smoke it
Post by: CODEDOG ND on August 10, 2002, 06:44:47 pm: hmmmm interesting but I'm still skeptical. Hence the word "BELIEVED."
Title: Stick this in your probability pipe and smoke it
Post by: Ace on August 11, 2002, 12:23:18 am: Quote
Originally posted by Thunder
I don't see it easy at all to be honest - I mean any society with a concept of the question "how did we get here?" must have come across the idea that they were put there for a purpose and for that there was something that did the putting. Therefore part of that society might dedicate itself to worshipping that idea and from that we get religion (in a rather basic - and my own - understanding).

All I'm saying is any race developed to human levels of thought may and probably has asked itself that question at least once.

You could take the stance that this theoretical species instead relied on hard observation to attempt to solve this question. Over time many schools of thought based on these observations and skewed ideas form within the conclusions of each. Which then of course forms into what could be interpreted as ritualistic religion from corrupted scientific method.