Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Su-tehp on August 08, 2002, 02:52:54 pm
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If anyone is interested in learning how to speak Quenya (High-Elvish) or Sindarin (common Elvish spoken in the LOTR movies), then I suggest you start here:
http://www.ardalambion.com/
This site absolutely rocks if you're trying to learn ANYTHING about Tolkein's languages. It even has a downloadable teaching course on how to learn Quenya, lessons and all! :cool:
It has buttloads of links to other useful sites.
Here's another site that has wave files of Sindarin spoken in the Fellowship of the Ring movie, with english translations!
http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/movie.htm
It's reccomended that you learn Quenya before you learn Sindarin (Quenya is supposed to be easier to learn, according to the Ardalambion site).
Ok, I've rambled on long enough. How many people here are interested in learning Elvish? (I mean, as a purely scholarly matter, of course! :cool: :D )
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In that case try and find out what 'maeglamor' means... :)
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Just one question: is "maeglamor" Quenya or Sindarin? I can give you a traslation, but I need to know which language it is.
EDIT: ok, NM, I figured it out; it's Sindarin. "Maeglamor" literally means "well echo."
mae adv. well (LotR/I:XII, Letters/308MS *mai (MAJ) ) (This means "well" as in "good", NOT "well" as in "water from the well.")
glamor n. echo (Ety/358MS *glamr, OS *glambr- (G-LAM) )
Thank God for the Sindarin dictionary!
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Hmmm, you're slightly off the mark there. :)
Try splitting it into Maegla and mor, although you might not find maegla easily.
BTW it's quenyan (mor)and sindarin (maeg) but it's interesting to know what the sindarin interpretation is. :nod:
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OK, "mor" is misspelled; it should be "môr" with the long o and the accent. This threw me off. "Môr" means "dark"
As for "maegla," the closest thing I found was "maegl" meaning "sharp".
So if I've translated it correctly, your name means "Sharp-Dark" but this doesn't make much sense.
I also found "magol" (I think the archaic form is "magl") which means "sword." So maybe you misspelled it, but I think you were aiming for "Dark Sword."
Am I right?
EDIT: Oh, crap! IS THIS QUENYA???? I THOUGHT IT WAS SINDARIN!!! NO WONDER I WAS THROWN OFF!!!
2nd EDIT: Oh, ok, this was Sindarin and the spelling was right; it was my interpretation that was wrong.
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Yeah you got it. It literally means dark and pointing or sharp. I don't use the circumflex or whatever it is above the 'o' for convienience.
It's not mean't to be taken literally though, it's sort of my way of saying 'pierce the darkness' or 'understanding'. It's somewhat abstract. :)
I'm sorry to have confused you, I need to double check the actual dialect myself because it's been a long time since I read any elvish.
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"Pierce the Darkness," I like that. :nod:
Yeah, I still have to work on conjugation and word forms and all that, and, as just illustrated above, I still have to figure out the differences between Quenya and Sindarin. I gotta learn both before i can tell them apart.
I think I can come up with a literal translation of "Pierce the Darkness," if you like, Maeglamor. All the same, I don't want to see you change your name; you've always been Maeglamor to me. :) :D
Oh, something else for all the HLP forum-surfers. I found a link to a sort of name-list in Quenya. Here it is:
http://www.elvish.org/elm/names.html
If your Real Life (TM) name is not too exotic, you should be able to find a Quenya translation of it here. Enjoy! :cool: :D
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Hmmm. Klingon pisses people off no end. Think how annoying I'd be if I could master Elvish.
*goes to learn Elvish and brush up on Klingon*
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LOL! IMHO, Elvish is a much more beautiful sounding language. Klingon is filled with harsh-sounding consonants. It's not hard to see that Klingon would be more annoying to most people than Elvish.
Then again, anon, it could just be you that people find annoying, no matter what language you speak! J/K ;) :D
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I always thought 'Elvish' was Shaun Connery playing the king of Rock 'n roll.......;7
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I heare that it's based on Finnish.
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Elves? We don't need no steenkeen elves!
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You people scare me... :nervous:
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Originally posted by Shrike
Elves? We don't need no steenkeen elves!
Yeah, we need Orcs. Then I could build my army of darkness a LOT quicker.
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How about trolls? Seem to be enough here...:D
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Originally posted by Stealth
I hear that it's based on Finnish.
The Elvish languages actually were influenced by many languages, not just Finnish. But you're right, Finnish did have a big early influence on them. Spanish did too, as I recall.
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nooo i don't think Spanish. I'd say it sounds a bit like French, but Spanish it definately doesn't sound like
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I'm going to have to fumigate this forum. I hate the smell of elves.
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Originally posted by Stryke 9
You people scare me... :nervous:
So it's not just me? :shaking:
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You know what I hate? Those damn Christmas Santa's-sweatshop elves. You know, the ones who get all slimy if you feed them at midnight and start trying to kill and eat you?
Oh, wait, that's gremlins. Pretty much the same thing, I guess.
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DOWN WITH PANSY ELVES!
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Originally posted by Stealth
nooo i don't think Spanish. I'd say it sounds a bit like French, but Spanish it definately doesn't sound like
Nah, I don't think Quenya sounds like French. Sure, there are sylables like "la" and "le" all over the place, but Elvish (either Quenya or Sindarin) doesn't really sound like French, not even a little bit, to me. (Just MHO.)
Quenya doesn't sound like Spanish all that much, either, now that I think about it. I just said that Spanish and Finnish were just influences on it. And by "influence" I was refering to the grammar and mechanics. Tolkien took small pieces from many different languages that he liked and inseted them into Quenya as he was making it.
Of course, Quenya is by no means an amalgam of the world's languages; it stands on its own as a completely new language unlike anything we have in the modern world today. Same for Sindarin, too. :)
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Elvish naturally sounds very Celtic or Gaelic to me. The best language I can think of it's near to that is still spoken is Welsh.
Anyone here speak Elephant? You simply say 'eleph' before every vowel sound (usually abbreviated to 'elf.') It's cool, but takes some practice.
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Originally posted by GalacticEmperor
Elvish naturally sounds very Celtic or Gaelic to me. The best language I can think of it's near to that is still spoken is Welsh.
Exactly right, GE! Welsh was a BIG influence on Tolkien's work. Tolkien loved how this language sounded and worked hard to incorporate Welsh elements in Quenya.
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Originally posted by Maeglamor
In that case try and find out what 'maeglamor' means... :)
What? You're saying that it's actually not a mispell of mega-lamor?!? :eek: :D
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Originally posted by Shrike
I'm going to have to fumigate this forum. I hate the smell of elves.
At least they're not gnomes. Gnomes are worse.
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what is elvish by the way? I don't think I have heard of this language...
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the language that the elves in Lord of the Rings (the new movie... the one that got nominated for like 9 academy awards. If you haven't heard of the movie then you've sleeping in a box or something :) just kidding... i know a lot of people that haven't heard of 'elvish' lol)
yeah... the elves in Lord of the Rings speak it briefly at times. In the other two you'll hear a lot more elvish (two towers; return of the king)
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lol I see; I thought it was a real spoken language or something... :D
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Originally posted by CP5670
lol I see; I thought it was a real spoken language or something... :D
Define "real." Languages are created things and they have no substance. What's the difference between an everyday language like English versus something like Elvish? The number of speakers?
There are as many fluent speakers of Klingon as there are of Gaelic (namely, about 1000 throughout the world). Is Klingon any less "real" than Gaelic?
Would Latin be more "real" than Elvish? Latin was created centuries ago and is a dead language (i.e. not spoken as a mother tongue by a native people) studied only by scholars. Elvish was created only within the last few decades with Tolkien fans creating new words according to Tolkien's grammatical rules that were published by him and his son. In other words, Latin is dead and isn't changing, while Elvish is actively spoken by professional language scholars and other people who aren't professional language scholars and continues to evolve today. Wouldn't this make Elvish more "real" than Latin?
This is just something to think about the next time someone who isn't a Tolkien fan (i.e. the "unclean" ;) )tries to tell you that Elvish isn't a "real" language.
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The main difference between the two "kinds" of language is that one is created for practical communication in the real world while the other is created for entertainment purposes as part of a story universe. Hey, one could even say that the commnode.wav file is actually an advanced language. :D
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Originally posted by CP5670
The main difference between the two "kinds" of language is that one is created for practical communication in the real world while the other is created for entertainment purposes as part of a story universe.
But languages like Klingon and Elvish do both. They're spoken in movies, true, but they are also spoken in the real world among people part of a community of like-minded fans. What's the difference? ;7 :nod:
Originally posted by CP5670
Hey, one could even say that the commnode.wav file is actually an advanced language. :D
LOL! Oh, really? Then how would you interpret this wavefile?
*Su-tehp moons CP and simultaneously uses the mesage-end.wav file of static to simulate a fart in CP's general direction*
;) :D
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I have a small elvish/orcish/whateverish dictionary from the LotR books, pretty cool, I used the orc language to name my converted chimera for warhammer, called it karshfaroth ( not sure about the spelling ). Cool stuff :)
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I wonder what "Gortef" would mean in Elvish :nervous:
sounds more like an Orcish name....
Tolkien did study Kalevala when he was creating Elvish language (still sounds like a drunk trying to spell Elvis :p). Go Väinämöinen! :D
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You know, when you look like a no-life geek to a community of computer geeks, you're pretty far gone, tovarisch.:D
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Originally posted by Stealth
yeah... the elves in Lord of the Rings speak it briefly at times. In the other two you'll hear a lot more elvish (two towers; return of the king)
I can barely contain my glee. "Let's use subtitles just for the sake of it!!!" Honestly, I don't think anyone except Tolkienites could care less what the elves speak in the movies, as long as it's English. :p
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I always liked it when he launched into Elvish in the books, 'cos that meant that there was that much less of the book to read. After the Tom Bombadil thing, I kinda lost my taste for the series.
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Originally posted by Stryke 9
I always liked it when he launched into Elvish in the books, 'cos that meant that there was that much less of the book to read. After the Tom Bombadil thing, I kinda lost my taste for the series.
I was always put off by the pansy prancy elves thing, and the idealised version of Medieval life which didn't exist. Where was the bubonic plage in The Fellowship of the Ring? Oh yeah, and the critics said it was full of homosexual references. :p :D
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People claim that every famous piece of literature (or quasi-literature) has homosexual references. And that it's Marxist. And feminist. And Fascist. And white supremacist. People are idiots
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Originally posted by Stryke 9
People claim that every famous piece of literature (or quasi-literature) has homosexual references. And that it's Marxist. And feminist. And Fascist. And white supremacist. People are idiots
Actually I was talking to Shrike about that yesterday. I said that it's a critics' job to find homosexual references in a book. :D
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AAAAAaaaahhhh... :D *Is proud to know fluently the language that elvish is based on...*
*Waves at the few others who know this ancient and sacred language!*
Perkele! :p
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Suomeen perustuva kieli? No ei ihan siltä kyllä näytä. :p
Heh, ymmäretään haltijakieltä mutta ei suomea, johan on kumma. :D
Edit2: Ihme on kyllä jos kukaan ei mainitse siitä että kirjotinkin suomenkieltä... tosin varmasti mainitsee.
Edit: But why did he "base" it on finnish? Did he think that it's some ancient language? :wtf::p
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Originally posted by Redfang
Suomeen perustuva kieli? No ei ihan siltä kyllä näytä. :p
Heh, ymmäretään haltijakieltä mutta ei suomea, johan on kumma. :D
Edit: But why did he "base" it on finnish? Did he think that it's some ancient language? :wtf::p
Olen joskus kuullu syyn miksi hän piti suomenkielestä mutta en enää musita :doubt:
Beat's me :p
Maybe it just sounded like Elvish in his ears
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Because who the hell knows Finnish? Finland's some icy backwater in the middle of nowhere with a population of about 12. It's to the now-destitute icy backwater of Russia what Canada is to the US.:D
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Originally posted by Gortef
Olen joskus kuullu syyn miksi hän piti suomenkielestä mutta en enää musita :doubt:
Beat's me :p
Maybe it just sounded like Elvish in his ears
Muistaakseni sen mielestä se kuullosti kauniilta. Meh...
Probably, though the best reply I got from a friend was that it sounded like cave people grunting to each other... :D
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Originally posted by Dark_4ce
Muistaakseni sen mielestä se kuullosti kauniilta. Meh...
Holy crap! I haven't seen this many double vowels since I played Homeworld! ;) :D
Originally posted by Dark_4ce
...it sounded like cave people grunting to each other... :D
You mean like Kellan and Strike 9 are doing to each other in this thread? :rolleyes:
Here I am trying to have a serious conversation about a language, and these two keep going off on their tangents about how LOTR sucks or comparing the Eldar to Christmas elves. :doubt: :sigh:
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[deleted. Can't type. Laughing ass off]
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Originally posted by Su-tehp
Holy crap! I haven't seen this many double vowels since I played Homeworld! ;) :D
You mean like Kellan and Strike 9 are doing to each other in this thread? :rolleyes:
Many finnish words have double vowels. :)
And Kellan and Stryke 9 aren't only doing that in this thread, but in quite many threads.
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Boog nugh! Arg! [hits Redfang with a femur]
What are you talking about, anyway? I'm mostly *****ing, moaning, and trying to get a game running properly, so I have something else to do.
****ing summer. ****ing weather. ****ing daylight. And sun.
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Originally posted by Su-tehp
Holy crap! I haven't seen this many double vowels since I played Homeworld! ;) :D
:lol: :lol:
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Originally posted by Redfang
And Kellan and Stryke 9 aren't only doing that in this thread, but in quite many threads.
I resent that. Even though it's true.
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I find elvish to be a very beautiful language, a lot better than Irish anyway, it sounds like a welsh person with a speech impediment. :rolleyes:
It's something I'd love to learn if I had the time. :nod:
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i think it sounds finnish, since it's based primarily on Finnish, but anyway :D
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Originally posted by Stealth
i think it sounds finnish, since it's based primarily on Finnish, but anyway :D
I don't think so, and I live in Finland... maybe it's just me. :)
But have you actually heard how finnish sounds?
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the first time i looked at the title I read:
How many people here are studying to speak Elvis?
I though you were crazy
The second time I looked at the title i read:
How many people here are studying to speak Elvish?
Now i thought that you might just as well ask how many geeks we have here....:blah:
;) I am of course making somekind of joke :p
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there was a guy from Finland in my class last year, and he spoke Finnish, English, and Swedish...
i'm sure it was him that said it was based on Finnish
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Yes, it is based on Finnish and Latin, it was on that site which Su-Tehp posted, I scrolled it down and noticed that.
So it's based on Finnish, but I still can't understand it at all. :D
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Originally posted by Dark_4ce
Muistaakseni sen mielestä se kuullosti kauniilta. Meh...
Probably, though the best reply I got from a friend was that it sounded like cave people grunting to each other... :D
Saatto olla...
Grunting... :lol: Ok... ok... I guess it sounds like it :D
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But languages like Klingon and Elvish do both. They're spoken in movies, true, but they are also spoken in the real world among people part of a community of like-minded fans. What's the difference?
Still, they were initially created for different purposes. :D
LOL! Oh, really? Then how would you interpret this wavefile?
*thinks of something*
That translates to "Begin transfer of Bosch Beer stockpile."
So now it is a great language as well! :D
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Originally posted by Su-tehp
LOL! Oh, really? Then how would you interpret this wavefile?
*Su-tehp moons CP and simultaneously uses the mesage-end.wav file of static to simulate a fart in CP's general direction*
;) :D
Originally posted by CP5670
*thinks of something*
That translates to "Begin transfer of Bosch Beer stockpile."
So now it is a great language as well! :D
That's the first time I've ever heard a static/fart translated as involving the consumption of some kind of beer...
Not that I'm complaing, mind you! ;) :D
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Normally, I'd post something about the Etherian language in a situation like this, but at this point I've decided to go with the path of laziness...
For those who have no clue what I'm talking about, Etherian is the language spoken by the Congaree Confederate Republic (CCR) and the Etherian Colonial Combine (ECC) in Nodewars.
I made it to be a mix of random languages, without as much Gaelic or Finnish influence, and more influence from Asian and Romance languages.
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Originally posted by an0n
Yeah, we need Orcs. Then I could build my army of darkness a LOT quicker.
En Taro Adun... errrmm... Zug Zug!
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"I amar prestar aen, han mathon ne nen, han mathon ne chae a han noston ne 'wilith."
"The world is changed; I can feel it in the water, I can feel it in the earth, I can smell it in the air."
--Galadriel, at the start of Lord of the Rings
You can fnd this wavefile (among many others) here:
http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/movie.htm
EDIT: Hmmm... I seem to have already posted this addy... Oh, well, live and learn! :D
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I have but one question.... Why would anyone ever bother wanting to learn a useless language like Elvish or Klingon? Yeah, they sound cool, but where the hell are you going to use it? If you wanna learn cool languages, learn French or Italian or Hebrew (I learnt this for a while when I was at school). Those languages kickass. Hell, even Finnish is worth learning, I guess. Oh well, I guess I just don't understand über-fanhood...
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Come to think of it, I agree with Dark_4ce. :)
I think only English is worth of learning... and of course own language. :p
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Learing the Tolkien languages is not just for speaking. It's also an art, studied for scholarly purposes. Why do people study Latin? After all, it's a dead language with no native speakers, but scholars the world over still stumble all over themselves to learn it. It's just something that scholars do: learn stuff just for the sake of learning it.
Same reason I'm studying Elvish: it's a scholarly thing. :D
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Su: People learn Latin because a good chunk of ancient literature is in it. And it helps a hell of a lot in understanding most medical and many technical terms. Or if you want to learn French or Spanish, both of which are quite similar. Latin proper is dead, but it's still everywhere. Klingon and Elvish exist only in fan fic and obsessive raving lunatic's weddings. That's why. Go ahead, compare Elvish to Greek or something, now. I dare ya.
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Find me a Greek poem and post it here and I'll do just that. :nod:
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*EDIT* I'm suupposed to post a 200-page epic poem on here? I suppose I could also include a MP3 of someone singing it.:rolleyes:
Pretty much all of the Greek literature we have now is long. Really long. And doesn't make sense unless you include a good bit of it. So I'll refer you to some exciting new titles originally in Greek, which you can most certainly purchase them in: The Illiad, The Odyssey, The Clouds, The Bees, The Metamorphoses, Dialogues of Plato... er, that's all I remember offhand. The Clouds might be in Latin, but I doubt it. You get the idea. Most famous works in literature, short of Shakespeare in general and the latest crap by Stephen King.
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Originally posted by Stryke 9
*EDIT* I'm suupposed to post a 200-page epic poem on here? I suppose I could also include a MP3 of someone singing it.:rolleyes:
Pretty much all of the Greek literature we have now is long. Really long. And doesn't make sense unless you include a good bit of it. So I'll refer you to some exciting new titles originally in Greek, which you can most certainly purchase them in: The Illiad, The Odyssey, The Clouds, The Bees, The Metamorphoses, Dialogues of Plato... er, that's all I remember offhand. The Clouds might be in Latin, but I doubt it. You get the idea. Most famous works in literature, short of Shakespeare in general and the latest crap by Stephen King.
Speaking of Shakespeare, you could always post Hamlet here in the original Klingon... ;7 ;) :D
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I agree that learning languages like Elvish and Klingon is a one form of art (and a good hobby :) )... but I'm not so into it.
The only language I'm wiling to start learning currently would be Japanese :D
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Yeah that would be a cool language to learn. Then I can finally watch all those anime's without buying them dubbed. :D
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haha my thoughts exactly :lol:
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What the...?
Who edited my post? Put it back! I WANT MY CURSING BACK!
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Originally posted by Stryke 9
What the...?
Who edited my post? Put it back! I WANT MY CURSING BACK!
Me.
A thread was already posted regarding swearing. Go read it.
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I'd read it before. It's ridiculous, and I have never believed in humoring the old ladies in tennis shoes. So what's so wrong with [edit]? It's a beautiful thing, and pretty much the only truly creative activity mankind can engage in. What about taking a [edit]? It's something everyone does, all the time. Might as well censor out the word "breathe", too- that's quite biological.
I'm still here
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oooooooooh
go maeglamor :D
Now that we're Off Topic:
So who here ISN'T learning elvish? :D :D :D :D :D
*raises hand * :)
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Originally posted by Stealth
oooooooooh
go maeglamor :D
Now that we're Off Topic:
So who here ISN'T learning elvish? :D :D
*raises hand * :)
Dude, Stealth, you're usurping my thread! :D
I think Maeglamor and I are the only ones here trying to learn Elvish. Stealth, if you ask everyone here who ISN't learning Elvish, most everyone here would suffer serious injuries from throwing out their arms in order to raise their hands. ;)
I really need to get a hardcover copy of Tolkien's "The Long Road"; that thing has an elvish etymology index! :cool:
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I was heavily into the Tolkien languages when I first read LOTR, back in the seventies. Althought I was more into the writing than the languages itself. But all of the linguistic analysis wasn't threre yet.
I still have my "Guide to Middle-Earth" which has a pretty good list of translations, but a lot of it was guesswork... stuff like The Simarillion hadn't been published yet...
"Still proud to be a geek after thirty years" :ha:
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i'm just kidding Stryke, i knew no one would reply anyway (to my post i mean) :D
I'm not learning Elvish, but i'm a great LOTR fan. :D
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...Did I say anything?
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Originally posted by Stryke 9
...Did I say anything?
:wtf: :confused:
what are you talking about!?
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I could ask you precisely the same thing. See above two posts.
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OIC, Stealth typed "Stryke" but I think he meant me when he said "i'm just kidding Stryke, i knew no one would reply anyway (to my post i mean) :D"
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:double post:
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I'm a bit confused by the main page on that first site. Quenya is the tongue of the Noldor, and Sindarin is the tongue of the Sindar, or Grey Elves. What are they talking about calling Sindarin the "noble tongue"?
BTW, I'm partial to Quenya and Adunaic myself. Here's a quiz for you: What does Helkanar translate to?
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Originally posted by Grey Wolf 2009
I'm a bit confused by the main page on that first site. Quenya is the tongue of the Noldor, and Sindarin is the tongue of the Sindar, or Grey Elves. What are they talking about calling Sindarin the "noble tongue"?
Probably this was a reference that came out of the Third Age. By the time of LOTR, the Exilic Noldor that left Valinor and came to Middle Earth to pursue Morgoth at the beginning of the First Age of the Sun had either returned to Valinor or were so thouroughly interbred with the Sindar that they were no longer Noldorin but were really Sindar. By the time of LOTR, no one in Middle Earth really spoke (or had a need to speak) Noldorin; most of the Elves in Middle Earth at the time spoke Sindarin and were overheard speaking Sindarin by the other races (men, dwarves, etc.). Quenya at this time was only known by the Elvish scholars and loremasters (and of course the Istari) and wasn't really spoken all that much by Sindarin Elves in general. The "noble tongue" reference probably came from the other races as they heard Sindarin and thought it to be a beautiful language. (Quenya, being so old and rarely spoken, was almost never heard by the other races, and so never had the chance to be described by the other races as a noble tongue.)
I think I remember this correctly.
Originally posted by Grey Wolf 2009
BTW, I'm partial to Quenya and Adunaic myself. Here's a quiz for you: What does Helkanar translate to?
Give me a day or so and I'll have an answer for you. :)
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Ok, Maeglamor, I came up with a reasonable translation of "stab the dark" which is the closest I've come so far to a literal rendition of "pierce the darkness"
In Sindarin, "stab the dark" roughly translates as "eithaimor", with "eitha-" being the stem form for "stab", "i" being "the" and "mor" of course being "dark".
As for "Helkanar", Grey Wolf, if you're sure this is Quenya, then I'll try to find an answer now.
EDIT: Ok, I think I got it. "Helka" means "ice" or "icecold" and "anar" means "sun" so "Helkanar" means "Icesun" or perhaps "Coldsun".
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I used the back of the Silmarrilion, and it listed -nar as being "flame", hence, Ice-Flame or Cold-Flame.
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Ok, so I was really close.
I REALLY gotta get me a copy of that Quenya Etymologies in the Long Road.