Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Sandwich on January 08, 2017, 07:37:47 am
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A Palestinian ran his truck into a group of Israeli soldiers visiting the Haas Promenade about 2 blocks from my house. After smashing through the crowd, he then proceeded to reverse his truck back over the bodies.
WARNING: GRAPHIC VIDEO (no blood shown, but hard to watch. "Action" starts at around 44 seconds.).
4 dead so far.
I had to walk to pick up my 6-year-old daughter from her school in the neighborhood since the roads were understandably blocked off, causing high traffic in the entire area. I explained to her that "something happened that made a lot of traffic up the road".
This is not the way to achieve peace. This is not proper or equivalent response to houses being built where you don't like. This is madness.
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This is just terrible.
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Why is it the only time you post it's pushing an agenda? Do you honestly expect HLP to have anything, literally anything, to do with this, or about this? Something bad happened near you, that's really unfortunate. You'd probably have my condolences if you didn't immediately use it as a political statement in a place that doesn't give a **** about the politics of it.
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Why is it the only time you post it's pushing an agenda? Do you honestly expect HLP to have anything, literally anything, to do with this, or about this? Something bad happened near you, that's really unfortunate. You'd probably have my condolences if you didn't immediately use it as a political statement in a place that doesn't give a **** about the politics of it.
So posting something that seriously affected me & my family is pushing an agenda. Gotcha.
Oh wait, you must be referring to the line I ended my post with, about how terrorism doesn't attain peace. Well let me educate you about something. To you it's politics because you don't live around here, but what you call "politics", we call "daily life". In a country the size of New Jersey, there's not much separation between events here and "you" (not you-you, but people-you). Call our desire for peace "political" if you want—to you perhaps it is—but to us, every day is filled with this type of stuff, and the desire for real peace is real. Do you think I enjoyed essentially wasting 3 of my life mandatorily serving in the military here? How about the 3-4 weeks per year of reserve duty in the 15 years that followed my release, somehow always falling on the worst times of the year to have life interrupted? Do you think any Israeli wants to have to do that stuff to defend our families and country? Do you think I like it when sh*t like this happens?
...a political statement in a place that doesn't give a **** about the politics of it.
So this is you not giving a sh*t about the politics of it? All those gigantic Israel-related political threads are filled with people not caring about the politics of it? Could've fooled m—no wait, you did fool me. Huh. My bad. :rolleyes:
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If this happened two blocks away from Sandwich, then that is certainly worthy of a post on HLP, IMHO.
This is not the way to achieve peace. This is not proper or equivalent response to houses being built where you don't like. This is madness.
I dont really follow who is building houses where and if it is or isnt justified, so I am not going to judge.
But speaking in general, violence is a proper response to being colonized. So be a bit careful where you built your houses.
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That does assume that the houses are why this happened and not the dozens of other things that have happened. Considering the targets were soldiers, there's probably a long list of grievances one can pick and choose from.
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Why is it the only time you post it's pushing an agenda? Do you honestly expect HLP to have anything, literally anything, to do with this, or about this? Something bad happened near you, that's really unfortunate. You'd probably have my condolences if you didn't immediately use it as a political statement in a place that doesn't give a **** about the politics of it.
Counter question, why is it that EVERY time Sandwich posts about something that happens around him, you and others go on the attack? If you don't give a **** about the politics of it, why are you even talking about it? FAR less relevant things have been posted by other members. I'm getting really goddamn sick of the hypocrisy of the HLP hivemind. If you want to talk about pushing agendas, may I refer you to the 100+ page Trump butthurt thread.
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Why is it the only time you post it's pushing an agenda? Do you honestly expect HLP to have anything, literally anything, to do with this, or about this? Something bad happened near you, that's really unfortunate. You'd probably have my condolences if you didn't immediately use it as a political statement in a place that doesn't give a **** about the politics of it.
Why do we have a 110 page topic devoted to tearing down Trump?
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Why do we have a 110 page topic devoted to tearing down Trump?
For the same reason we have a 90 page thread on Star Citizen, obviously. Apperently, commenting on an overhyped, overpromising wreck lead by people who really don't know what they are doing is something we're into :P
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Stay safe, Sandwich. I can't imagine what having this sort of thing happen so near must be like.
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Why is it the only time you post it's pushing an agenda? Do you honestly expect HLP to have anything, literally anything, to do with this, or about this? Something bad happened near you, that's really unfortunate. You'd probably have my condolences if you didn't immediately use it as a political statement in a place that doesn't give a **** about the politics of it.
Counter question, why is it that EVERY time Sandwich posts about something that happens around him, you and others go on the attack? If you don't give a **** about the politics of it, why are you even talking about it? FAR less relevant things have been posted by other members. I'm getting really goddamn sick of the hypocrisy of the HLP hivemind. If you want to talk about pushing agendas, may I refer you to the 100+ page Trump butthurt thread.
If somebody were to post a new topic detailing the police-involved shooting of a young black man near their neighborhood, and then at the end include a condescending rhetorical "This is not the way you reduce crime" in the same manner that Sandwich did, I'd call that out for politicizing a tragedy, too, even though I largely agree with the politics associated with it. You're welcome to call that hypocrisy if you want, I suppose.
People are dead, and the very first thing Sandwich did about it on these boards was use it as a springboard to blame those dastardly Palestinians again. **** that.
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You'll forgive me if I don't believe you. The record speaks for itself. Right on the front page, in the Berlin terror thread. Turned political immediately, starting with an attack on "the right". No one called that out. In fact you yourself defended it when someone countered. The only difference to this is who posted it and who turned it political. It's even the same kind of attack FFS.
Hell, the membership here has even been known to continually goad and provoke conservative members and then ban after the inevitable response.
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Why is it the only time you post it's pushing an agenda? Do you honestly expect HLP to have anything, literally anything, to do with this, or about this? Something bad happened near you, that's really unfortunate. You'd probably have my condolences if you didn't immediately use it as a political statement in a place that doesn't give a **** about the politics of it.
Sandwich would probably have your condolences if he didn't make it a political statement? And since he did make it a political statement, he doesn't have your condolences?
Also: as Klaustrophobia pointed out, HLP clearly does give a **** about the politics of it.
People are dead, and the very first thing Sandwich did about it on these boards was use it as a springboard to blame those dastardly Palestinians again. **** that.
Okay, next time there's a mass shooting in the US, nobody's allowed to talk about gun control.
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You'll forgive me if I don't believe you. The record speaks for itself. Right on the front page, in the Berlin terror thread. Turned political immediately, starting with an attack on "the right".
As the person who made that remark, I'd like to point out again that I did so because Geert Wilder's response to the attack was to post a picture of Angela Merkel with blood on her hands on twitter, before any information about who and what and why. Nigel Farage's response to the attack was a string of accusationary statements that ended with Farage accusing Joe Cox's widower of being an extremist (Joe Cox having been shot by a political extremist). I was expressing my disgust at an event being politicized so readily.
I also would note that the discussion was about 'the far right', which is a very intentional distinction that doesn't translate well across national boundaries.
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Okay, next time there's a mass shooting in the US, nobody's allowed to talk about gun control.
Yeah, it's generally a pretty ****ty topic to talk about in the immediate aftermath.
You'll forgive me if I don't believe you. The record speaks for itself. Right on the front page, in the Berlin terror thread. Turned political immediately, starting with an attack on "the right". No one called that out. In fact you yourself defended it when someone countered. The only difference to this is who posted it and who turned it political. It's even the same kind of attack FFS.
Hell, the membership here has even been known to continually goad and provoke conservative members and then ban after the inevitable response.
You should probably go read that again, because that's absolutely not what I defended. In fact, I didn't defend anything, unless telling Maslo to not bring his rhetoric into the conversation is suddenly defending politicizing a tragedy. And that's even besides the fact that the discussion turning political immediately (in the sense that commentary on an organization politicizing a tragedy is turning it political) was not actually anyone on this forum using the tragedy to make a political point.
But I'm not terribly surprised, you're clearly looking for reasons to lash out against the "HLP hivemind" and I doubt anything I say will change your mind.
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Apparently some of you have trouble seeing how Sandwich tried, with all the subtlety of a bulldozer, to spin this incident to delegitimise opposition to illegal Israeli settlements in the original post.
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You know... there is a small possibility that rather than being some sort of calculated chess move to try and use something for some sort of gain, it might just be how he actually felt about it and he was just being honest and open.
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So he's an unwitting propagandist that immediately used a tragedy to make a political statement. You're right, that's so much better.
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Yeah I don't mean to imply Sandwich wasn't speaking in earnest, I think his perspective is such that he genuinely looks at every issue and immediately sees how the Palestinians are solely to blame for it.
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People are dead, and the very first thing Sandwich did about it on these boards was use it as a springboard to blame those dastardly Palestinians again. **** that.
Would you have preferred I blame Global Warming instead??
http://www.timesofisrael.com/jerusalem-terrorists-sister-says-family-thankful-for-his-martyrdom/
...Fadi al-Qanbar... had carried out the attack of his own volition. ...
The Hamas terrorist organization on Sunday hailed the attack as a “heroic” act and encouraged other Palestinians to do the same and “escalate the resistance.”
Qanbar was a resident of the nearby Jabel Mukaber neighborhood of East Jerusalem...
... in Gaza several youths could be seen giving out candies and sweets to passersby to celebrate the attack. ...
When asked by a reporter for the Quds News Network what she thought of the attack, Qanbar’s sister responded, “God chose him for this martyrdom. Thank God. We are patient and we thank God for this… It is the most beautiful martyrdom.”
Qunbar was in his late 20s, was married and reportedly had four children.
:mad:
Yeah I don't mean to imply Sandwich wasn't speaking in earnest, I think his perspective is such that he genuinely looks at every issue and immediately sees how the Palestinians are solely to blame for it.
So you'd justify mass murder because...?
I blame Palestinians for Palestinian acts. Nothing more, nothing less. If you can't handle it when reality spits in the face of your idealized "persecuted minority" Hollywood-esque bullsh*t, go hide in a hole somewhere for the rest of your life. Not only are the Palestinians to blame for this attack—specifically, the guy who drove the truck, and the people who actively encourage such acts in official Palestinian media, education, etc—but they went around handing out sweets to celebrate immediately after the attack.
Now let's look at the other side of the coin. What has Israel done to "deserve" these types of actions? Built houses on disputed territory? Don't try to come up with some sort of moral equivalency between carrying out acts of murder and constructing houses on disputed lands. And yet that's exactly the comparison the UN recently condemned us for, which may very well have given the driver of the truck some misguided sense of justification for his actions in the world's eyes, in addition to the support and encouragement towards acts of violence he received his entire life through the Palestinian media and education system.
So yeah, you're damn right I immediately see the blame for Palestinians murdering Israelis resting in the lap of said Palestinians.
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These threads are basically just trolling at this stage, you're only making them to spoil for a fight.
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Actually it's his life.
I have lost long friendships over merely not opposing Israel, it seems this weird little strip of land brings out the worst in everyone. But then again the Holy Order of Social Justice does seem to have a weird hard-on for the religion of submission, maybe it's more that everyone is going along with Islam except the people Islam wants to wholesale rape/murder. Can I ask the people who are fuming at me right now, why do you have such a love affair with this ****ing death cult? You have no problem attacking Christianity for the insanity it is. Is it like the pro-life people who if you press them on the issue it turns out they just want to punish people who had sex outside a context they approve of? Are you just trying to destroy the dominant power in the world in hopes you can replace it with some sort of Utopia and you feel so hopelessly outgunned that you think you need to side with literally anyone who opposes it for any reason? Do you ever take a step back and ask yourself if you've fallen into a faulty line of reasoning? What are you fighting for? what is the world heading for? it doesn't look like anything good.
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To Bobboau: someone has taken exception to the phrase "****ing death cult" as being highly inflammatory. Try not to be so... er... succinct, I guess.
To Phantom Hoover: kindly do not accuse someone who has posted about a tragic incident directly affecting his family and his neighborhood as "trolling".
To everyone: please keep in mind that everyone has strong, even passionate feelings about things being discussed in the thread. You might want to reread what you write before you post it.
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and no one took exception with me describing Christianity as "insanity"? hmmm... weird.
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To Bobboau: someone has taken exception to the phrase "****ing death cult" as being highly inflammatory. Try not to be so... er... succinct, I guess.
Oh **** off, Goober. Take your own advice sometime.
and no one took exception with me describing Christianity as "insanity"? hmmm... weird.
If you call someone a "stupid mother****er" and then in the next breath call someone else "a little slow" which one do you think is going to get mentioned in a report? Reports have a limited character count.
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Well, this thread degenerated quickly.
For the record, I don't think Sandwich making a political point, however he chooses to do so, is at all off base for GenDisc. The rest of this thread could be discarded quite readily, however.
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Well, this thread degenerated quickly.
For the record, I don't think Sandwich making a political point, however he chooses to do so, is at all off base for GenDisc. The rest of this thread could be discarded quite readily, however.
It's not. Sandwich can make whatever political point he wants. The specific exception I took was that it looked (and still looks) for all the world like he was using a recent tragedy to score political points.
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To you. That is your opinion. It is not universally shared. Get over yourself already.
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It's not a universally shared opinion that the Earth is round, either. :doubt: Sandwich made his position abundantly clear with his follow up post. The perception remains unchanged.
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except by all the people challenging it.
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Now let's look at the other side of the coin. What has Israel done to "deserve" these types of actions? Built houses on disputed territory?
The fact that you believe this is the only thing Israel has done to the Palestinians is the exact reason why this sort of thing keeps happening.
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except by all the people challenging it.
...And they changed Scotty's perception without him knowing how...?
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It's not a universally shared opinion that the Earth is round, either. :doubt: Sandwich made his position abundantly clear with his follow up post. The perception remains unchanged.
Nice false equivalence there. You are the first person to accuse of politicization. Several people have stated that they do not perceive such. Yet you persist in insisting that your viewpoint is a fact and an absolute. This is not so. Just because you think it does not make it true. In contrast, the flat earth is prima facie absurd given that the Earth was known to be spherical even in Columbus' day (The idea that it was flat vs round earth geography at stake in Christopher's mission is an urban legend. The debate was what size of spheroid it was, though why I don't know, because...), and the circumference had been fairly accurately calculated some centuries before that.
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I don't know why I bothered. Predictable HLP is predictable.
BTW, Joshua I wasn't referring to you in the Berlin thread, I was referring to PH.
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Now let's look at the other side of the coin. What has Israel done to "deserve" these types of actions? Built houses on disputed territory? Don't try to come up with some sort of moral equivalency between carrying out acts of murder and constructing houses on disputed lands. And yet that's exactly the comparison the UN recently condemned us for, which may very well have given the driver of the truck some misguided sense of justification for his actions in the world's eyes, in addition to the support and encouragement towards acts of violence he received his entire life through the Palestinian media and education system.
The building houses on disputed territory, as recently supported by Netanyahu's government (which is the crucial difference that made the vote go that way) is symbolical of a far bigger problem: That the Palestinians on the west bank don't have self determination. The Area C settlements in the west bank are inhabited in part by Palestinians but they don't get to vote in the proceedings there, and the situation is similar in Eastern Jerusalem. Israel maintains the infrastructure in these regions but it does not give the Palestinians access to that same infrastructure. The problem that the UN has condemned is one of Israel treating the areas it occupies as areas it owns without giving a significant portion of the people that live inside those areas the right to make decisions about that, or even just basic human rights.
Putting more of Israel's civilians inside the territory it occupies gives it a mandate to increase IMF presence. It means that it has to expand the infrastructure to support these houses, which in turn means that Palestinian houses are demolished to make way (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_demolition_in_the_Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict), Palestinian civilians are expelled from their homes and that the Palestinian government is denied access to natural resources (water). Israel has the power to detain anyone in these areas indefinitely and without trail, and it frequently uses this with the stated cause of protecting the civilians it has moved or did not bar from moving into these territories from protestors (or they just shoot the protestors). When the Israel government commits to building more houses it commits to doing this even more, indicating that it is not committed to peace. It's so much more then just a bunch of bricks.
The issue is not whether or not these things are somehow morally equivalent. Two wrongs don't make a right.
BTW, Joshua I wasn't referring to you in the Berlin thread, I was referring to PH.
Phantom Hoover's post was a direct response to mine, they have not done anything I haven't there.
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This thread is ****, and Sandwhich is responsible for 0% of that ****tiness. It's incredible to me that people who have no dog in the fight whatsoever, like Scotty say, can be the one to respond in such an emotionally charged manner against someone who *does* live this **** every day. Check your ****ing privilege, Scotty. Armchair opinionating about foreign struggles while condemning people who live it everyday is really ****ing ****ty.
I might agree or disagree with the politics. It matters not. You can say so without completely disrespecting people and their experiences.
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But then again the Holy Order of Social Justice does seem to have a weird hard-on for the religion of submission, maybe it's more that everyone is going along with Islam except the people Islam wants to wholesale rape/murder. Can I ask the people who are fuming at me right now, why do you have such a love affair with this ****ing death cult? You have no problem attacking Christianity for the insanity it is. Is it like the pro-life people who if you press them on the issue it turns out they just want to punish people who had sex outside a context they approve of? Are you just trying to destroy the dominant power in the world in hopes you can replace it with some sort of Utopia and you feel so hopelessly outgunned that you think you need to side with literally anyone who opposes it for any reason? Do you ever take a step back and ask yourself if you've fallen into a faulty line of reasoning? What are you fighting for? what is the world heading for? it doesn't look like anything good.
As a member of the Holy Order of Social Justice, a position that shall only be taken away over my dead and organ-harvested body, I have absolutely no idea why you went from the notion of refugees having the right to be protected or everyone having equal rights or my contributions to Israel discussions in the past as a sign that I or anyone who has argued similar things has a love affair with a death cult, like I am thrilled at the prospect of terror attacks. This is not a with us or against us game.
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Holy Order of Social Justice
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There are an awful lot of people here who have apparently never read a Sandwich GenDisc thread before.
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What I expected was another Sandwich thread about how evil the Palestinians are, what I got was all the mods and admins yelling at each other. Not expecting that.
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Just because you think it does not make it true. In contrast, the flat earth is prima facie absurd given that the Earth was known to be spherical even in Columbus' day
People have known that the Earth is a few billions years old since Charles Lyell's day, in the 19th century. Yet you'd still probably oppose that.
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I'd make the obviously controversial point that political disputes are a tiny lil bit less consensual than the roundness of the planet, and thus that to speak in the same tone for those two different topics exposes a lil lack of nuance...
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It's not that I know much about the conflict.
I think anyone would be terrified/angry/whatever else if someone just killed several people in the nearest neighborhood. And I think there's a lot of difference between hearing "Some people were killed here and there some time ago" and actually witnessing something like that happen just several hundred meters away from where you live. Doesn't it become sort of personal? I mean - the place changes from just a normal parkside ground, where you get to pass by when going to work/school/whatever to a place just screaming at you "Four people were killed here!!!". I think just that is disturbing enough.
It's kinda how politics affect the life of an average person, I guess. In one situation, it's the amount of taxes you will pay or other slow, economical processes interacting with your life on a daily basis that get modified... But on the other hand, politic actions also affect the propability of something like the topic of the discussion here happening to you or your closest environment. So it is rather related to politics whether we like it or not, and it would be actually strange if something else would be discussed here.
And while I recognise that in the light of recent events that in Islam-related (or being in any conflict with other local people groups, in this case) minorities there's just an probability of something like that happening, I hate to generalise. Thus, the people I blame for these extremistic actions are the extremists themself. One can find some of them in any nationality or religion, but it happens that Islam, due to ideals and values it promotes, definitely "produces" a lot more of them than the others. Though it doesn't change the fact that it's the actions of single people that get so known of throughout the world, and there's still a lot of people in those nations/religions that just want to live their lives peacefully.
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Just because you think it does not make it true. In contrast, the flat earth is prima facie absurd given that the Earth was known to be spherical even in Columbus' day
People have known that the Earth is a few billions years old since Charles Lyell's day, in the 19th century. Yet you'd still probably oppose that.
The earth was not known to be billions of years old. Lyell, a LAWYER, not a geologist or any other sort of scientist, who was distinctly opposed the very idea of there being a God that he had to answer to, essentially invented that idea.
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Charles Lyell very much was a geologist. That he also was a laywer doesn't suddenly invalidate his geological credentials. And he did not invent the idea either: Uniformitarianism, the idea that the same geological and geomorphical processes that we see today are also responsible for the shape of all the mountains and valleys and any other shape on this earth (except the netherlands :p), was one proposed by James Hutton.
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****ing hell, this is worse than twitter.
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****ing hell, this is worse than twitter.
QFT.
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****ing hell, this is worse than twitter.
mlyp
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Is this a terrorist attack? Seems to me, if you're fighting a war (declared or not), soldiers are perfectly legitimate targets.
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Right. I think everyone, including the OP, has missed this little nuance. It seems to me that the dead were soldiers. For some reason, attacking Nazi and Soviet soldiers in occupied Poland was a grand and heroic action (even before we found out about the camps!). Attacking British soldiers in occupied Ireland was morally questionable, but you'd find plenty of people arguing it was needed, especially in context of the early 20th century IRA. Attacking Israeli soldiers in occupied Palestine is murder. It seems that we've lost our perspective a bit. I've been indoctrinated about our partisans for quite a while in grade and middle school, but when I now look at things I've read, they've been pretty despicable. We're really lucky that Nazis turned out to be such bastards after the war, aren't we?
Make no mistake, guerilla tactics in both of these cases were similarly underhanded. Martyrdom isn't a Muslim invention, it dates back centuries. Even the idea of attacking civilian population is not new. The exact tactics change, as do weapons and equipment, but the general idea remains the same. So remember that next time you remember the heroic partisans of WWII. Partisans killing German civilians in Poland wasn't unknown, either. This particular attack does not rank very high on the guerilla atrocity scale.
Yes, it's traumatic. It's meant to be. That's the only way guerillas can win a war. By making their enemies' lives enough of a hell that they decide the land they're occupying is not worth the trouble (or allowing someone else to kick them out, that can work, too). Yes, it does take place in front of the children. All such wars do. Children planting bombs under train tracks, then hiding in the bushes and detonating them as the train passes. WWII Poland or modern Israel? The only thing that differs is the type of train.
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Right. I think everyone, including the OP, has missed this little nuance.
Heeey! I mentioned that at reply #5!
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The earth was not known to be billions of years old. Lyell, a LAWYER, not a geologist or any other sort of scientist, who was distinctly opposed the very idea of there being a God that he had to answer to, essentially invented that idea.
1.) Science believed the Earth to be a few hundred MILLION years old before Lyell, his ideas in no way contributed to disproving YEC. It was already pretty weak way before Lyell theorised the Earth to be a few billion years old. His ~40 years of geologic work had nothing to do with his faith.
2.)Lyell was very much a Geologoist, he was even elected secretary of the Geological society years before he published his "Principles of Geology"
You can believe what you want to but it's pretty hypocritical to call flat earth theories "absurd" while believing something equally absurd yourself.
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Right. I think everyone, including the OP, has missed this little nuance.
Heeey! I mentioned that at reply #5!
Right. Everyone but one person. Who was promptly ignored in favor of mods and admins fighting. :) Way to go, HLP.
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Is this a terrorist attack? Seems to me, if you're fighting a war (declared or not), soldiers are perfectly legitimate targets.
Right. I think everyone, including the OP, has missed this little nuance.
Nope. I was wondering how long the "is this/isn't this" terrorism question would come up since before I even began this thread.
Look through my posts. I never called this attack "terrorism". An attack, mass murder, yes. Terrorism, no... although it does succeed in causing terror, the definition of "terrorism" (AFAIK) is "attacks directed at a civilian populace to invoke terror, often for political reasons".
While I did mention terrorism in my second post when I wrote "terrorism doesn't attain peace", I then went on to refer to the many years we've suffered these types of attacks, thus clarifying that when I said "terrorism", I meant most everything we've gone through over the years, not this specific attack. The styles are the same as past acts of terrorism, but because the target was military forces, it technically counts as "legitimate".
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Killing enemy soldiers is not murder, let alone mass murder.
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Actually, that would depend on what combination of location, duty status, and in or out of uniform they are.
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Actually, that would depend on what combination of location, duty status, and in or out of uniform they are.
Most countries have a similar definition of what constitutes a "combatant" (https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/customary-ihl/eng/docs/v2_rul_rule3), but Israel in particular considers it to be “soldiers serving in the army (regular and reserve) or in well-ordered militia forces (e.g. the SLA or the State National Guards in the United States)”. It's just duty status which defines whether or not someone is military.
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While I did mention terrorism in my second post when I wrote "terrorism doesn't attain peace", I then went on to refer to the many years we've suffered these types of attacks, thus clarifying that when I said "terrorism", I meant most everything we've gone through over the years, not this specific attack. The styles are the same as past acts of terrorism, but because the target was military forces, it technically counts as "legitimate".
Yo, we all get that Israel is a rather ****ty place to live in, but why did you in the same breath attempt to justify Israel reneging on any peace agreement it has been party to? The attacks have been ongoing for decades, but Isreal's occupation has been ongoing for decades too, with rather destructive results, and it has only further escalated. As a participant in Israel's democratic process you do actually have some power in changing that.
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I honestly don't think there's much point in discussing this with Sandwich, because he's very entrenched in the idea that the conflict is entirely the fault of Them, the Palestinians, and that the Israelis have never, ever done anything wrong or provocative. You can see this on the first page where he blows up the part about the guy who was "married and reportedly had four children" apparently because he finds that particularly outrageous; but I'm willing to bet that he feels no such outrage when Israeli shells kill Palestinian children because to him Israeli actions are always justified and proportionate.
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Yo, we all get that Israel is a rather ****ty place to live in, but why did you in the same breath attempt to justify Israel reneging on any peace agreement it has been party to?
Huh? What peace agreement are we reneging on? How did you even get to that conclusion? :confused:
The attacks have been ongoing for decades, but Isreal's occupation has been ongoing for decades too, with rather destructive results, and it has only further escalated. As a participant in Israel's democratic process you do actually have some power in changing that.
:wtf: In the time period between 1948 and 1967, there were no "settlements" to get all up in arms about. No "occupation". So why were the Arabs/Palestinians attacking Israeli civilians? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_attacks_against_Israeli_civilians_before_1967
I'll tell you why. Settlements/Occupation are a convenient excuse for the Islamic goal of killing Jews wherever they are found. Jewish existence is an affront to Allah or something, so they rile themselves up with incitement and inflammatory sermons (https://www.alaraby.co.uk/english/news/2016/9/25/israel-jails-palestinian-preacher-for-al-aqsa-sermon) about slaughtering the Jew (http://www.globes.co.il/en/article-is-calls-on-palestinians-to-slaughter-jews-1001074641), and go out to kill those pigs and monkeys, the infernal Jews (http://www.forbes.com/sites/richardbehar/2013/01/11/news-flash-jews-are-apes-and-pigs-so-why-is-egypts-morsi-the-elephant-in-americas-newsrooms/#77aa8e3c22fb).
Newsflash: There is such a thing as actual evil intent in the world. The minority isn't always in the right just because they're the minority. Fundamental Muslims want to kill Jews because of all the anti-Semitic hatred and the incitement they're inundated with from the time they can walk (https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/pics/large/1279.jpg). They want to get those 72 virgins, perhaps have a street (http://www.haaretz.com/news/pa-names-ramallah-street-after-hamas-terror-mastermind-1.891), school (http://www.thetower.org/4070-palestinian-authority-names-school-after-planner-of-munich-olympics-massacre/), soccer team (http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/11/16/palestinian-soccer-tourney-features-teams-named-after-terrorists-report.html), or park (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/12/world/middleeast/12westbank.html) named after them, and have their family handsomely compensated (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/11/british-american-aid-subsidises-palestinian-terrorism).
Besides, the West Bank is at best (at worst?) disputed territory, not occupied territory. I won't get into that now though.
I honestly don't think there's much point in discussing this with Sandwich, because he's very entrenched in the idea that the conflict is entirely the fault of Them, the Palestinians, and that the Israelis have never, ever done anything wrong or provocative. You can see this on the first page where he blows up the part about the guy who was "married and reportedly had four children" apparently because he finds that particularly outrageous...
You do realize that the guy I was upset about, the guy who was married and had four children, was the Palestinian driver of the truck that rammed into the group of IDF soldiers, right? I.E. the perpetrator, not one of the victims? He had a family to take care of, and he goes and does what he did. That is evil.
...but I'm willing to bet that he feels no such outrage when Israeli shells kill Palestinian children...
Israel protects its children with its soldiers. Palestinians protect their fighters with their children.
Where is your outrage over their use of children as human shields? Where is your outrage when they launch rockets at Israeli cities from schoolyards and mosques? Where is your outrage over their indoctrination of their own children from before they can speak with the glorification of hatred, violence, and murder?
Why is it that I, an Israeli Messianic Jew, appear to be the only one outraged over what the Palestinians are doing to their own children?
...because to him Israeli actions are always justified and proportionate.
Which one of us has performed those "Israeli actions" firsthand? Which one of us has had to take the precautions, risk his life to do things the dangerous, door-to-door way, instead of just bombing an entire village and calling it a day? The IDF is one of the most humane militaries in the world, taking extraordinary precautions to avoid collateral damage. Quit being an armchair general, deluded into thinking that you have an inkling what you're talking about just because you saw something on the news.
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someone break out the bingo square
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You're not the only one outraged at it, I at least assure you of that.
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Yo, we all get that Israel is a rather ****ty place to live in, but why did you in the same breath attempt to justify Israel reneging on any peace agreement it has been party to?
Huh? What peace agreement are we reneging on? How did you even get to that conclusion? :confused:
The Oslo Accords. Or, indeed, any. All the post 1967 peace talks that have been done have always involved Israel agreeing to withdrawing from the west bank. So far, it has only expanded into the west bank.
Besides, the West Bank is at best (at worst?) disputed territory, not occupied territory. I won't get into that now though.
Actually, this is important. It's perhaps more important then you trying to repaint all of Islam as some sort of continuation of Nazi Germany, or all of Palestina as terrorists. Because there are two ways of looking at this:
Either:
Israel is occupying Palestina. This is a view held by everyone, including the Israeli High Court of Justice, but not by the current Israeli government. Following this view means that Israel is in violation of the Geneva convention by putting civilians into territory that is occupied by their military, as well as expelling palestinian civilians from that same territory. That's why those UN resolutions exist, but okay... You don't share that view. That's fine. But...
Or:
The West Bank belongs to Israel, according to Israel. Other states may claim that they own it, and they do, and that's why it's disputed territory, but okay. Israel owns it. It's cool.
So why doesn't Israel take responsibility for what's happening there? Why does it have to make a political point out of building houses? Wny aren't the palestinians allowed to vote? Why is there such a large disparity between two ethnic groups? Why is that disparity not being adressed? Why is there so much state violence going on? Why is there so much anti-state violence going on? Why is Israel not protecting it's own citizens? You state that education is a problem, so why isn't the disparity in education being adressed? If Israel controls the territory, it means that they hold all the cards. Why aren't they dealing them?
Israel protects its children with its soldiers. Palestinians protect their fighters with their children.
Where is your outrage over their use of children as human shields? Where is your outrage when they launch rockets at Israeli cities from schoolyards and mosques? Where is your outrage over their indoctrination of their own children from before they can speak with the glorification of hatred, violence, and murder?
Why is it that I, an Israeli Messianic Jew, appear to be the only one outraged over what the Palestinians are doing to their own children?
If you really think that was the case, you're not paying attention. But have you noticed? There are no Palestinians in this thread for us to voice our concerns to. There is no palestinian state for us to voice our concerns to, or atleast not one recognized by either the UN or the EU. We are as outraged at Israeli civilians being killed as we are at Palestinian civilians being killed. And no: The IDF isn't doing a whole lot against civilian deaths, it has only used heavier ordenance in the last few offensives, it's just that it's government is less and less interested in holding it to account. Because the Israeli government is not interested in peace. The amount of effort they've put into the peace proposals done by neutral parties shows it. The world is distraught by a conflict which has no end in sight. The reason why you're hearing the critique that is aimed at the Israeli's is because... you're Israeli. That doesn't mean that the Palestinians are not also being critiqued, it just so happens that that critique isn't adressed at you.
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I've been to Israel, beautiful country. Got a pretty interesting perspective too - one of the guards on my trip was Muslim, and was involved in policing operations in Palestine. He showed me footage of when he had to kill someone there. It was an interesting perspective. I'd like to go back there again sometime.
There's two sides to every story, I don't really care to get into it because arguing on a forum thread won't solve anything. I'm also going to remain impartial.
I don't think I've locked a thread in like...3 years? Please play nice and, I don't know, try to let go of preconceived notions and allow for the possibility of outside influences that you might not be aware of.
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someone break out the bingo square
If this is the level of discourse you're bringing to this thread, proceed to vacate it.
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:wtf: In the time period between 1948 and 1967, there were no "settlements" to get all up in arms about. No "occupation". So why were the Arabs/Palestinians attacking Israeli civilians? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_attacks_against_Israeli_civilians_before_1967
I'll dive into this point and further in a bit more detail, but my geuss? It probably has something to do with this (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_War#Demographic_outcome). And no - the existence of Jews really isn't an affront to Allah considering who they all worship, but okay. Let's roll with it. Like the Americans did in Afghanistan, or in Iraq after they removed Hussein, or in Vietnam, or during the Second World War. Let's ignore the complexities surrounding Hamas, the PA and the situation in East Jerusalem, suppose Islam is a fascistic ideology as it is referred to by the dutch far right and suppose it's the prime motivator for aggression.
Then it boils down to this: The Germans were able to point to the Versailles treaty in order to justify their aggression. The Vietnamese communists were able to point to agent orange and bombing of civilians with napalm to justify their own resistance. The Taliban and Al-Queda were able to point to regime changes, the torture of innocents in Gitmo, and the excessive usage of NATO airstrikes that invariably hit civilians due to their crudeness in order to justify their actions and recruit more followers. These are not prime motivators (or atleast, not in their ideologue, they might well be for some of their supporters). They are important becuase only one of the aforementioned was crippled after the war ended.
Fighting a war, crippling another economy without an economic rescue plan and without any hearts and minds campaign means that in the long run, everybody loses, be it the WW1 versailles treaty inevetibly leading towards WW2 or the US's failure to actually let people know why they were in afghanistan (http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2011/09/lot-afghans-dont-know-what-happened-911/338226/). Look at what those attacks between 1948 and 1967 actually meant: That the foreign policy that Israel has carried out since 1967 has not meaningfully changed the situation towards it's stated goals of protecting it's own civilians. Polls indicate that there are many palestinians who would prefer to be Israeli citizens (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4013000,00.html). Mabye exploit that, rather then continuing a 50 or 70 year old cycle.
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Actually, Israel is the only nation in the region that will give palestinian arabs full citizenship if they wish it. There are even palestinian arab members the Knesset. All other surrounding nations refuse to do grant palestinian arabs any citizenship. The UN even has a resolution in place declaring that palestinian arabs permanent refugees until they have their own state. Except they do have the two state solution they keep demanding, but the palestinian government, which happens to be a KNOWN TERRORIST ORGANIZATION, keeps screwing it up because the two state solution is not what they really want. The anti-Israel bias of this is clear. The other nations don't want a solution. They want the "palestinian problem" as a club with which to beat Israel over the head. And the palestinian government just wants all the jews pushed into the sea. But what is perhaps the saddest thing of all is that if the Children of Israel had waited about 50 years to return to the Promised Land, there would be no "palestinian problem" to be debated. The Egyptian and Jordanian colonists who became what we now call "Palestinians" were dying out. They had ruined the arable land. They had inadequate healthcare even by the standards of the world at the time of the Israeli war of independence. The survival rate of children born to them was below even replacement rate, to the point that 50 years or so would have left what was then called Palestine a deserted wasteland. It was the return of the Jewish people and the creation of the modern nation of Israel that prevented this, and I guess some of them just can't stand knowing they wouldn't any of them be around to argue the point if it weren't for the Jews whom so many of them hate saving their miserable hides.
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Remember what I said above, about the complexities surrounding Hamas and the PA?
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But those are not "complexities", those are horrible moral failures by the arab states and the palestinians. Every time someone mentions all of these failures, it's a "complex problem", everytime someone mentions Israel's failures, it's a humans' rights issue that israelis should apologize for.
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What complexity? The Palestinian Authority IS Hamas. Whether through actual support or intimidation tactics or even (possibly) bribery, they got the palestinian arabs to VOTE THEM IN and they are the PA. There's no complexity there at all.
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What complexity? The Palestinian Authority IS Hamas. Whether through actual support or intimidation tactics or even (possibly) bribery, they got the palestinian arabs to VOTE THEM IN and they are the PA. There's no complexity there at all.
Nope. Hamas is in Gaza. The PA is a severely crippled shell in the west bank. That's what makes it so grrrworthy: There is no singular authority that the Palestinians answer to. The "Palestinians" are not one unified people but rather divided trough Hamas, PA and Israeli authority. But the situation in the West Bank (which is the one that is being discussed) and the situation in Gaza is very different, as is the PA's and Hamas's goals: Hamas has stated that it has no interest in a two state solution, the PA has.
But those are not "complexities", those are horrible moral failures by the arab states and the palestinians. Every time someone mentions all of these failures, it's a "complex problem", everytime someone mentions Israel's failures, it's a humans' rights issue that israelis should apologize for.
The Arab states are just as responsible for the situation in the west bank as Israel is (although they haven't been involved for a while wihlst Israel has). But see above. That's in part why a two-state solution is preferable to most of the world: A Palestinian state means that there's someone to actually hold accountable, just like Israel and the Arab states are responsible for the decisions made by the people that work for their governments. And ... err - the violence perpetuated on the palestinian end of things is denounced all the time. If you want to argue that there's an assymetry in the world's reactions, you would be right - There is an assymetry because the situation itself is assymetrical. (https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2016/country-chapters/israel/palestine) Browse back trough the years (you can alter the url to 2015, for instance). It's not like either Hamas or the PA is underrepresented there.
The difference this year is that the UN resolution this year passed. Usually the US vetoes anything that critiques Israel, but this year Netanyahu exploded simply because the UN dared to mention that Israel is going too far in the west bank, calling it a decleration of war. It's in this light that the discussions rests. The debate on the national level in the western world never revolves around whether Hamas should be condemned: It always is. The question is whether the actions of Hamas or palestinians in the west bank justify Israel's responses.
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You want to try that again? Abbas is a known member of Hamas. If the PA is a crippled shell, it's because Hamas wants it that way. Also explain how if Hamas =/= the PA, why the PA pays the families of Hamas "martyrs" who die killing Israelis. I think it's fairly obvious that the crippled shell government thing is a false front.
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Abbas is a member of Fatah, not Hamas. (https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Abbas) And no, they aren't the same thing. This is not really what being the same thing looks like (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Gaza_(2007)).
I think it's fairly obvious that the crippled shell government thing is a false front.
Unless you are suddenly going to shout that there is no Israeli presence in the West Bank, it really isn't. The west bank is subdivided into different parts where the PA and Israel has authority. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Bank_Areas_in_the_Oslo_II_Accord) The PA is a crippled government of the west bank as it does not actually control most of the west bank.
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Completely off-topic:
I just want to interject here that I truly appreciate you all, even those of you I have vehement disagreements with. It's actually somewhat reminiscent of Middle-Eastern culture; people can have a loud debate, filled with energetically gesturing hand-waving and hostile body language—and then call it settled and go grab a cup of coffee together as the bestest of friends.
I don't know if our rapport here is quite at that level, but it's darned close. :rolleyes: :p
<3
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You're ridiculous but it's nice to have you around. :) :p
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It occurs to me that the 'mods and admins yelling at each other' portion of this thread is going to be really difficult to parse for future readers. :P
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@all: You know most Conservative types just leave this place alone as far as posting their views, right? You have effectively created an echo chamber, with only a few open minds to question the brigading that happens whenever a conservative / right leaning voice speaks (which I don't know why they even bother any more, most just do what Razor's Kiss and others have done and bugger off, or what I do and just stay out of areas where their opinion isn't welcome.).
If you want proof, just look at the shockingly mild advice Goober gave to everyone here (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=93003.msg1838342#msg1838342) and how well it was received.
To Bobboau: someone has taken exception to the phrase "****ing death cult" as being highly inflammatory. Try not to be so... er... succinct, I guess.
To Phantom Hoover: kindly do not accuse someone who has posted about a tragic incident directly affecting his family and his neighborhood as "trolling".
To everyone: please keep in mind that everyone has strong, even passionate feelings about things being discussed in the thread. You might want to reread what you write before you post it.
EDIT: I should say, this thread has mellowed out somewhat in the last page and half or so. :shrug: Until the next wave of tirades, I guess.
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There are more US conservatives on this forum then there are people with similar views in dutch politics :nervous:.
I'm not even joking, actually: If I would characterize the US conservative wing, there is simply no faction in Dutch politics that both argues a strong adherence to the principles of the constitution, a lack of support from the government on social issues (I was going to say "Economic issues" but Trump's current statements on manufacturing jobs does depart from that paradigm) and is aggressively interventionist and anti-muslim.
There have been several people who have stated their support for the Republican party. There are no such people who have stated their support for the Democratic party: Most, if not all, arguments against Trump have come from people who do not live in the US. There are several people who have stated that they believe Jesus Christ to be the messias. There are several people who have stated to be atheïstic. There are no people who have stated to be Muslim, Buddhist or Hindu. All of the gendisc posters come from what is characterized as 'The west" with the exception of Karajorma, who has only recently started living in China. Nearly all of the active posters are men.
My point is: US conservatives on this forum are rather well presented considering their rather small numbers compared to the sheer size of the world.
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@all: You know most Conservative types just leave this place alone as far as posting their views, right? You have effectively created an echo chamber, with only a few open minds to question the brigading that happens whenever a conservative / right leaning voice speaks
probably if the conservatives learned to bring facts that backed up their beliefs it would go better for them
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That's not true for all the conservatives on here, but it is often a cause of dispute.
If you want proof, just look at the shockingly mild advice Goober gave to everyone here (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=93003.msg1838342#msg1838342) and how well it was received.
To Bobboau: someone has taken exception to the phrase "****ing death cult" as being highly inflammatory. Try not to be so... er... succinct, I guess.
The cause of the problem was that the advice was too mild actually. :p