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Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Bobboau on August 21, 2002, 05:13:29 am

Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Bobboau on August 21, 2002, 05:13:29 am
well, I was just waching the news of the embasy thing and I sudenly had a question I could not answer
why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq,
(other than the Iraqies themselves)
do you think the husien regiem is a good thing?
do you think the crushing economic and political preasure aren't enough?
do you think they realy like him as there ruler?
come on! this guy is the best thing sence Hitler,
why is it that nobody and I mean nobody (we arn't even getting Canada to come along!!!) wants to rip Husein from power other than us?
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Nico on August 21, 2002, 05:26:02 am
coz yeah, they do like hussein as ruler, and it's none of USA business anymore.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Zeronet on August 21, 2002, 05:34:03 am
Quote
Originally posted by venom2506
coz yeah, they do like hussein as ruler, and it's none of USA business anymore.


Yep they do, that rebellion a few years ago was a figment of my and the rest of the worlds imagination.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Nico on August 21, 2002, 05:41:39 am
Quote
Originally posted by Zeronet


Yep they do, that rebellion a few years ago was a figment of my and the rest of the worlds imagination.


it was a minority, did i imagine all the US flags burnt and the people shooting Hussein's name during the war and the embargo (dunno english name)?
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Zeronet on August 21, 2002, 06:08:05 am
Its the other way round, just you never see the majority in any propaganda from Iraq.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Nico on August 21, 2002, 06:15:03 am
Quote
Originally posted by Zeronet
Its the other way round, just you never see the majority in any propaganda from Iraq.


then it's US propaganda to make people don't like Iraki people, coz it's CNN crap. Oh well, I don't give a damn anyway.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Bobboau on August 21, 2002, 06:21:09 am
how can they like him?
he's brought nothing but war, pain, misery, and a totalitarian police state of fear to his people?

and I guess I imagined all the guns pointed at there heads
if you don't adimately shoute the praises of Sadam he kills you, you're famely, youre frends people who knew of you ou're famely and you're frends
he has broken the tereaty that he agreed to to end the war so why should we hold up our end
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Tiara on August 21, 2002, 06:24:04 am
If someone were to invade Iraq they will retaliate with all their force (Nukes -If they have some-, massive army, suicide squads, you name it). THAT is the main reason nobody invades (I think :p).
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Zeronet on August 21, 2002, 06:26:47 am
He doesnt have nukes and we can protect our troops from biochemcial weapons, *remembers NBC suit*. His Army uses equipment thats year out of date, we wiped the floor clean with it during the Gulf war.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Tiara on August 21, 2002, 06:30:29 am
Quote
Originally posted by Zeronet
He doesnt have nukes and we can protect our troops from biochemcial weapons, *remembers NBC suit*. His Army uses equipment thats year out of date, we wiped the floor clean with it during the Gulf war.


He CAN have nukes. And your protect our troops is a bit silly. Cause he won't target military instalations...  He's a madman remember?

His army are fanatics. Like a mob. Nobody can take a mob without being severely hurt.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Bobboau on August 21, 2002, 06:30:50 am
unless you bomb them from 20,000 feet

and it is our busnes, he would like nothing better than to send a nuke into NY harbor, and as long as he sits there he is a constant looming threat,
are you going to wait untill after someone nukes Paris before you get concerned about him?
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Tiara on August 21, 2002, 06:32:11 am
Quote
Originally posted by Bobboau
and it is our busnes, he would like nothing better than to send a nuke into NY harbor, and as long as he sits there he is a constant looming threat,
are you going to wait untill after someone nukes Paris before you get concerned about him?


Didn't say that... But simply invading is stupid.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Bobboau on August 21, 2002, 06:32:53 am
well simply leaving him there is radiantly stupid
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Zeronet on August 21, 2002, 06:35:16 am
His Army fanatics? Not at all, his soldiers surrendered to Apaches, our tanks outrange his old T72's. Iraq is trying to get nukes, but we're gonna stop em.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Tiara on August 21, 2002, 06:36:17 am
Quote
Originally posted by Bobboau
well simply leaving him there is radiantly stupid


But if he sends a nuke when we attack it will be mainly our fault. And he has also forces wich would help him (Think almost ALL terrorist factions against the US, etc).

If we were to attack it has to be covert. We must firdt determine if he actually has nukes and act upon that.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Tiara on August 21, 2002, 06:40:59 am
Quote
Originally posted by Zeronet
His Army fanatics? Not at all, his soldiers surrendered to Apaches, our tanks outrange his old T72's. Iraq is trying to get nukes, but we're gonna stop em.


Z, the real world isn't NodeWars. You can't just rush in, cush them and rush out.... MAJOR repercussions will come with this. And you must consider them all.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Zeronet on August 21, 2002, 06:41:38 am
he doesnt have nukes! if he did, we'd know. Also you bring up another good reason TO attack him, his state sponsers terrorism. We(Britian, US, Canada mainly it seems) are fighting a war against terrorism. This aint about nukes, nukes dont scare me as much as biological and chemical weapons do. There's stuff that melts your skin off, while your still alive.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Zeronet on August 21, 2002, 06:42:48 am
Quote
Originally posted by Tiara


Z, the real world isn't NodeWars. You can't just rush in, cush them and rush out.... MAJOR repercussions will come with this. And you must consider them all.


Who mentioned rushing in? You go in heavy, with Air,sea,land power and eliminate his armed forces, take control of Bagdad and arrest Saddamn for crimes against humanity(namely gassing Kurds).
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Tiara on August 21, 2002, 06:43:29 am
Quote
Originally posted by Zeronet
he doesnt have nukes! if he did, we'd know. Also you bring up another good reason TO attack him, his state sponsers terrorism. We(Britian, US, Canada mainly it seems) are fighting a war against terrorism. This aint about nukes, nukes dont scare me as much as biological and chemical weapons do. There's stuff that melts your skin off, while your still alive.


Again you act as if we kknow everything... WE DON'T! He might have dozens of 'm in a secret bunker somewhere...

BTW, The alqaida have demonstrated the capability to release chemical gasses. It was on the news. And not scared of a nuke? Wait till it blows near your...
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Tiara on August 21, 2002, 06:44:04 am
Quote
Originally posted by Zeronet


Who mentioned rushing in? You go in heavy, with Air,sea,land power and eliminate his armed forces, take control of Bagdad and arrest Saddamn for crimes against humanity(namely gassing Kurds).


As I said rushing in is no option...
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: LtNarol on August 21, 2002, 06:48:25 am
If he had nukes, the US would be a crater.

one the biggest reasons why the European nations wants to leave him be is they're taking the politically correct route, Bush on the other hand is a redneck who wants to finish what his old man didnt.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Tiara on August 21, 2002, 06:49:16 am
*cough* (http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/iraq/)
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Bobboau on August 21, 2002, 06:49:24 am
Quote
Originally posted by Tiara


Again you act as if we kknow everything... WE DON'T! He might have dozens of 'm in a secret bunker somewhere...

BTW, The alqaida have demonstrated the capability to release chemical gasses. It was on the news. And not scared of a nuke? Wait till it blows near your...


so this is why we shouldn't atack, becase were afriad of him
if anything what you just sayed is the reason why we've got to go in now
cowering in terror at this is the death song of western civilisation
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Tiara on August 21, 2002, 06:50:24 am
Quote
Originally posted by Bobboau


so this is why we shouldn't atack, becase were afriad of him
if anything what you just sayed is the reason why we've got to go in now
cowering in terror at this is the death song of western civilisation


Ahem... I mean we should be CAREFULL. Is that so hard to understand? Ppl just want to rush in. And believe me, it will fail. Major riots will arise against the agression of the UN/US (Always stupid ppl around).
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Zeronet on August 21, 2002, 06:51:44 am
Quote
Originally posted by Tiara


Again you act as if we kknow everything... WE DON'T! He might have dozens of 'm in a secret bunker somewhere...

BTW, The alqaida have demonstrated the capability to release chemical gasses. It was on the news. And not scared of a nuke? Wait till it blows near your...


I said "Nukes dont scare me AS MUCH"

Also if he had nukes, we'd know, cos he would use them. Also we do know a lot about his activities, just seems everybody wants this top secret data to ogle over.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: LtNarol on August 21, 2002, 06:52:20 am
The European nations want to keep their hands clean by using apeasment again (remember WWII? its happening again).  The US on the other hand knows that Iraq will use its weapons of mass destruction without hesitation whenever Hussain feels like pushing the big red button, if they had Nukes the US would know because the US would be feeling them.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Tiara on August 21, 2002, 06:52:50 am
Quote
Originally posted by Zeronet


I said "Nukes dont scare me AS MUCH"

Also if he had nukes, we'd know, cos he would use them. Also we do know a lot about his activities, just seems everybody wants this top secret data to ogle over.


Hes a madman but NOT stupid! If he'd use 'm he knows hes a dead man. He keeps them as a failsafe device so he can keep his regiem.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: LtNarol on August 21, 2002, 06:57:44 am
Given how much he hates the US, I think that he'd be mass producing Nukes and firing them over to the US as they come off the the assembly line...Although im not sure his original reason for hating the US so much, its enough that he does.  What I have to say to the European nations is simple: what will you do when the US is nothing more than a crater and Hussain feels the urge to expand his influence.  Will the French intervene? With their pathetic army? Don't make me laugh, at least the UK has a decent airforce and navy.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Tiara on August 21, 2002, 06:59:45 am
Quote
Originally posted by LtNarol
Given how much he hates the US, I think that he'd be mass producing Nukes and firing them over to the US as they come off the the assembly line...Although im not sure his original reason for hating the US so much, its enough that he does.  What I have to say to the European nations is simple: what will you do when the US is nothing more than a crater and Hussain feels the urge to expand his influence.  Will the French intervene? With their pathetic army? Don't make me laugh, at least the UK has a decent airforce and navy.


I never said we should do nothing at all. I merely stated that if we invade head on we will be creating more problems then we have.

All the things that will come with war are BAD. Only victory is good but often tastes bitter.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Bobboau on August 21, 2002, 07:00:51 am
if he nukes us then there isn't much need to worry about the environmental impact of a few more (of our) nukes going off,
he does not want to play that game
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Tiara on August 21, 2002, 07:01:49 am
Quote
Originally posted by Bobboau
if he nukes us then there isn't much need to worry about the environmental impact of a few more (of our) nukes going off,
he does not want to play that game


Exactly. Even saddam isn't THAT stupid.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: LtNarol on August 21, 2002, 07:03:03 am
Invading Iraq would be very costly to any nation that participates in it, but doing nothing will end up costing more, and in this I do agree with the Americans.  Hit him now while we still can.

As for how, I remember the US's F-117s did rather well against Iraqs air defenses, and the B-2 bombers followed them in hitting the installations.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Bobboau on August 21, 2002, 07:03:58 am
but he might pass them off to some of his frends
I want him taken out as fast and completly as posable
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Tiara on August 21, 2002, 07:05:08 am
Quote
Originally posted by LtNarol
Invading Iraq would be very costly to any nation that participates in it, but doing nothing will end up costing more, and in this I do agree with the Americans.  Hit him now while we still can.

As for how, I remember the US's F-117s did rather well against Iraqs air defenses, and the B-2 bombers followed them in hitting the installations.


I know something needs to be done. But we can't just go in head on. We need to plan things carefully if we wish to hit him so hard that he will barely be able to retaliate. And this is NOT an easy thing so we shouldn't rush things.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Bobboau on August 21, 2002, 07:07:33 am
well what would you sudjest
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Tiara on August 21, 2002, 07:11:55 am
Quote
Originally posted by Bobboau
well what would you sudjest


1). Survey Iraq with satallites for force concentrations.
2). Use intel. to gain information on who is supporting them.
3). (If possible) Neutralize any supporting force.
4). Precision strikes on targets sighted by satallite.
5). Mass attack now they are weakened.

-This but with MAJOR planning-

Reasons for failure -

*Miss and hit a city or civil target.
*Fail to eliminate all troops thus leaving room for a nasty resistance faction.
*High risk of riots.
*etc, etc, etc....
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Tiara on August 21, 2002, 07:17:15 am
Ow and I forgot the economical impact this would have. As seen with the WTC terrorist strike it severely degraded the economical status. With this war it will degrade even further.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Bobboau on August 21, 2002, 07:22:53 am
1) done
2) done (there have been SF guys in Iraq for the last seven months)
3) not sure what you mean
4) will be done in three days
5) within a month Iraq will be like Afganistan is today, wich is better than it was a year ago

we can't be too concerned with hiting civilian targets, there the bad guys untill Sadam falls, so though we arn't going to be aiming for it, and we'll be embarised and sorry when we hit schools and hospitals, it's war, **** happens

most of there troops surendered (to recon drones!!!) in that last war, I don't see any reason why this should be diferent this time

I don't think there'll be many riots, were not going to enslave these people, were going to set up a national democratic republic, there is already a bunch of people redy to assume this role
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Bobboau on August 21, 2002, 07:23:37 am
not if you invest in munitions manufactures ;)
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Tiara on August 21, 2002, 07:27:48 am
Quote
Originally posted by Bobboau
1) done
2) done (there have been SF guys in Iraq for the last seven months)

Doubt they'll see everything.

3) not sure what you mean

I mean eliminate them from the game.

4) will be done in three days

AHEM!

5) within a month Iraq will be like Afganistan is today, wich is better than it was a year ago

And with that new terrorist factions will arise... Wich will be FAR more radical then those we have today.

we can't be too concerned with hiting civilian targets, there the bad guys untill Sadam falls, so though we arn't going to be aiming for it, and we'll be embarised and sorry when we hit schools and hospitals, it's war, **** happens

True but some ppl might think differently.

most of there troops surendered (to recon drones!!!) in that last war, I don't see any reason why this should be diferent this time

If WE invade them they will think differently. They will blame us. They knew that last time they were to blame. This time that is not the thruth (from their viewpoint).

I don't think there'll be many riots, were not going to enslave these people, were going to set up a national democratic republic, there is already a bunch of people redy to assume this role

Imeant riots in our countries. You always have those peace lovin'  ppl who don't want war one way or another. (Sad but true)
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: an0n on August 21, 2002, 07:36:45 am
Reasons to invade Iraq:

So, basically, everyone should attack because America wants Hussein dead. Despite the fact that he's done nothing particularly wrong since the Gulf War.

Reasons not to invade Iraq:


They don't give a **** about global stability or wiping out terrorists. They're simply wanting to settle old scores, increase their influence over those in the region and trying to act big and hard in order to scare people like China and Russia into line.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Tiara on August 21, 2002, 07:40:29 am
Quote
Originally posted by an0n
Reasons to invade Iraq:
  • America ****ed up the first time and want to try and win this time (I classify winning as destroying Husseins regime)
  • America say that they have bio, chem and nuke weapons and they're basing this on the fact that Hussein has been looking into building nukes......err....just like every other president, king and prime minister for the last 50 years.

So, basically, everyone should attack because America wants Hussein dead. Despite the fact that he's done nothing particularly wrong since the Gulf War.

Reasons not to invade Iraq:
  • Hundreds of thousands of troops will die
  • They probably won't get Hussein anyway
  • If America invade another middle-eastern country then everyone in the region is gonna get spooked and Americas power in the region will be nullified.
  • America have no business medling in the affairs of others
  • America are hypocrits. They want war because of his facist regime which imprisons enemies of the state at will and tortures them........Hmmm. Can anyone say PATRIOT?


They don't give a **** about global stability or wiping out terrorists. They're simply wanting to settle old scores, increase their influence over those in the region and trying to act big and hard in order to scare people like China and Russia into line. [/B]


:D Exactly! :D
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Zeronet on August 21, 2002, 07:42:55 am
Tell me, where is Saddamn getting this magically powerful Army from? The Boy scouts have more of a backbone, does anyway remember the highway of Death?
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: an0n on August 21, 2002, 07:45:21 am
No army = No defence = No chance of launching bio, chem or nuke weapons as they'd get instantly whooped. So why the **** does anyone care?

And you don't need troops to kill people, just a few men with landmine filled trucks and rocket launchers.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Tiara on August 21, 2002, 07:49:59 am
OK, this is getting nowhere...

*leaves thread...*
Title: Re: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: RandomTiger on August 21, 2002, 08:29:27 am
Quote
Originally posted by Bobboau
why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq


The UK is somewhat divided (between Blair and the 80 % of the population). If it came to it and the UK got invloved I think there would be some big protests in the street.

Here are some of the reasons. Note I do not argee with all of them:

1. Some people think that attacks wont get to Saddam and will just kill civialians.
2. People dont want the middle east to get any more crazy
3. Its techinically illegal (this is the one that bothers me *)
4. Other people just dont trust America and think its all about oil.
5. Other people think war solves nothing.

* If we are not willing to stick to our rules when things get tough, why should anyone else?

I read an interesting article that said that America's main worry in a conflict with the Iraq is that Saddam will retaliate by attacking israel with missles (like it did before). Israel has stated something along the lines that it *would* retaliate under such cirmumstances, unlike last time. Also apparently American, note: American officials have stated that if Israel was to recieve heavy casuaties from any bio attacks it would consider using nuclear weapons.
Title: Re: Re: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: an0n on August 21, 2002, 08:33:48 am
Quote
note: American officials have stated that if Israel was to recieve heavy casuaties from any bio attacks it would consider using nuclear weapons.

Oh, God I hope they do. The UN would ****ing rape them, they'd never be allowed to attack or bully ANYONE ever again without UN approval, all their embargos against countries like Cuba would be nullified when the UN turned on them, China and Russia would use it to impose heavy restrictions on American weaponry. The world in general would be a better place.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: RandomTiger on August 21, 2002, 08:37:01 am
Quote
Originally posted by an0n
Reasons to invade Iraq:
They don't give a **** about global stability or wiping out terrorists. They're simply wanting to settle old scores, increase their influence over those in the region and trying to act big and hard in order to scare people like China and Russia into line.


Probably more China than Russia. Russia wants to invade Georgia but:

"Weapons no longer work, planes cannot fly for lack of parts and fuel."

Another interesting point is that *apparently* the US wont let weapons inpectors into its weapons facilities either.
Title: Re: Re: Re: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: RandomTiger on August 21, 2002, 08:41:05 am
Quote
Originally posted by an0n

Oh, God I hope they do. The world in general would be a better place.


Except for Iraq.

However, ironically I imagine America would do anything in their power to stop that from happening.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Top Gun on August 21, 2002, 08:43:54 am
WOW america actually interested in the affairs of other nations :rolleyes: Give me a break. The only reason war with Iraq is on the cards is so the shrub can get his grubby little hands on all their oil and not have to worry about what people think. After all they're only foregners, who cares if they get blown up, maimed or starve :rolleyes:


-There has been NO evidence to link Iraq with Al Quaeda.


-Saddam Hussein's regieme inside iraq is probable the least fundamentalist in that area (with the exception of the UAE). The guy has more in common with Stalin than Osama (still not good).


-The reason they hate America is because of the Genocidal blockade on the country that has been condemmed by nearly every humanitarian organization including some from within the UN.

 
-Saddam's regieme may be far from perfect but America has supported far worse regiemes in the past, funded and armed far worse regiemes in the past (Including the Taliban, Al Quaeda and ironically Saddam) and tried to overthrow reasonably good governments (Cuba Anyone?) for its own selfish wants.


-The War crimes committed in Vietnam by America were far worse than anything Saddam Hussein has ever been capable of, so perhaps the rest of the world should have bombed America to rubble and installed a puppet government that has no interest at all in the people its supposed to represent.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: RandomTiger on August 21, 2002, 08:52:56 am
Quote
Originally posted by LtNarol
If he had nukes, the US would be a crater.


There are two parts to a weapon, the payload and the delivery system. Thankfully countries like Iraq do not have missles that go very far, otherwise who knows what would be going on.

I think its safe to say that America would have a had a bio attack from Saddam if that wasnt the case.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: an0n on August 21, 2002, 08:57:47 am
Quote
Originally posted by RandomTiger


There are two parts to a weapon, the payload and the delivery system. Thankfully countries like Iraq do not have missles that go very far, otherwise who knows what would be going on.

I think its safe to say that America would have a had a bio attack from Saddam if that wasnt the case.
This is why America kicked Japans ass in WW2, force projection. They used their massively superior aircraft carriers to deliver their war-planes further and more easily into Japanese territory.

It's also why Germany got whooped. Lots of kick-ass range on their rockets but no real firepower.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Tiara on August 21, 2002, 09:01:09 am
Quote
Originally posted by an0n
This is why America kicked Japans ass in WW2, force projection. They used their massively superior aircraft carriers to deliver their war-planes further and more easily into Japanese territory.


Still, those kami planes did some real damage...
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: an0n on August 21, 2002, 09:03:47 am
Quote
Originally posted by Tiara
Still, those kami planes did some real damage...

They were pretty damn cost effective too. Normally you'd have to pay for a bomb, a plane, plane fuel for a round trip, pilots wages. But with kamikaze planes you've just got to pay for the plane, half as much fuel and some explosives to pack it with.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: CP5670 on August 21, 2002, 10:10:55 am
Ah, a politics thread. :D

Quote
it's none of USA business anymore.


This thing about "it's none of your business" is a bunch of nonsense; anything and everything is everyone's business if there are controlling interests at stake, which is always the case. At the very least, we will eliminate a very real potential threat to the survival of Americans; why worry about them when you can simply get rid of them?

Quote
WOW america actually interested in the affairs of other nations  Give me a break. The only reason war with Iraq is on the cards is so the shrub can get his grubby little hands on all their oil and not have to worry about what people think. After all they're only foregners, who cares if they get blown up, maimed or starve


You stated the last part very well there. As vyper said in an earlier thread, governments exist to protect their and only their populations. It does not matter if all the Iraqis get "blown up, maimed or straved" if it helps the Americans in any way, and this can be reduced to enough precision such that no opinions matter at all and everything can be objectively deduced from logic. I think that at some point there will be a single united government that rules the entire globe, but for today, this is the way the world works and how things stand.

Quote
There has been NO evidence to link Iraq with Al Quaeda.


I doubt they would release all of the top secret information they have to the public; how would you know?

I don't quite trust the US government either to make truly rational decisions based on the information, looking at their history (e.g. irrational fear of communism), but these petty moral excuses that people use against them are just pathetic.

Quote
-Saddam Hussein's regieme inside iraq is probable the least fundamentalist in that area (with the exception of the UAE). The guy has more in common with Stalin than Osama (still not good).


Sure, but that is no reason not to get rid of him anyway. We can install in some other guy who may be equally brutal but is more friendly towards the western nations, which would be in our interest, and that is all that matters.

Quote
-The reason they hate America is because of the Genocidal blockade on the country that has been condemmed by nearly every humanitarian organization including some from within the UN.


Actually, I would say that this is the reason that only the current government hates the US; the propaganda systems cause parts of the population to go along with that as well, but I would not exactly say that the US is uniformly hated and Hussein is considered a great savior of the people throughout the nation.

Many of those humanitarian organizations are just more of these fools who try to base everything on some nonexistant ethical values; again, tell me why, say, Hitler's ethics are in any way inferior to ours.

Quote
-Saddam's regieme may be far from perfect but America has supported far worse regiemes in the past, funded and armed far worse regiemes in the past (Including the Taliban, Al Quaeda and ironically Saddam) and tried to overthrow reasonably good governments (Cuba Anyone?) for its own selfish wants.

The War crimes committed in Vietnam by America were far worse than anything Saddam Hussein has ever been capable of, so perhaps the rest of the world should have bombed America to rubble and installed a puppet government that has no interest at all in the people its supposed to represent.


I cannot see how this has anything whatsoever to do with the topic at hand. People apparently just love to use these moralistic excuses; the US may be the biggest, baddest monster regime in the world (and probably is), but so what? The Vietnam events were bad, but for completely different reasons. I have said this many times and I will say it again: the truly sensible nations do not fight for any stupid ethical values, but they fight for the continued long-term survival of their people and their people alone.

Someone get daveb in here... :D
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Styxx on August 21, 2002, 10:33:21 am
The reason the US wants to invade is simple:

Oil.

The reason the rest of the world doesn't want to invade is simple:

Oil.


If the US invaded, even with the help of the other nations, it would cause a temporary collapse on the worldwide oil distribution. It would raise the price of the oil to astronomical levels, causing a massive impact on the world's economy. Strangely enough, the US would be the only country not to be affected, simply because it would control all those reserves that formerly belonged to Iraq. Convenient, huh?

Also, despite any technology difference, such invasion would have a tremendous cost, both in personnel and equipment. There would have to be occupation, or else the invasion would have been for nothing, and guerilla units can cause extreme damage to occupation forces, suffering only minor losses. They could also sabotage the oil extraction facilities if they felt they were about to lose, destroying the very objective of the invasion in the first place.

Considering the costs, and the fact that the US would be the only country to benefit from the invasion, it's no wonder that no other country want to be a part of it.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: an0n on August 21, 2002, 10:39:30 am
*hugs the North Sea oil fields*
*showers*
*brags about how much Britain would benefit from selling oil at $40,000 per barrell*
*thinks about how good it'd be to force people to start using electric cars adn the likes*
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Levyathan on August 21, 2002, 10:42:25 am
Quote
Originally posted by CP5670
You stated the last part very well there. As vyper said in an earlier thread, governments exist to protect their and only their populations. It does not matter if all the Iraqis get "blown up, maimed or straved" if it helps the Americans in any way, and this can be reduced to enough precision such that no opinions matter at all and everything can be objectively deduced from logic.


:rolleyes:

Oh boy. I better keep my mouth shut for the good of my membership.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: CP5670 on August 21, 2002, 10:44:16 am
Yeah, the oil is another important issue. It makes perfect sense that others do not want to have anything to do with the invasion, but the issue is more whether the US alone should go in or not. (actually, the others would also benefit if they go in as well, grabbing their shares of the "spoils of war," i.e. the oil )

Quote
If the US invaded, even with the help of the other nations, it would cause a temporary collapse on the worldwide oil distribution. It would raise the price of the oil to astronomical levels, causing a massive impact on the world's economy. Strangely enough, the US would be the only country not to be affected, simply because it would control all those reserves that formerly belonged to Iraq. Convenient, huh?


I'm not too sure that the oil prices would change around enough to be so devastating; there would be a significant increase in prices but it would not be anywhere near dangerous to the global economic system and things will settle themselves out quickly once the initial invasion is over.

Quote
:rolleyes:

Oh boy. I better keep my mouth shut for the good of my membership.


In other words, you cannot think of more arguments? :D

Actually I doubt anyone will be banned simply because of this; feel free to voice out your views.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Levyathan on August 21, 2002, 11:01:45 am
Quote
Originally posted by CP5670
In other words, you cannot think of more arguments? :D


More arguments? What was my other argument?
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: CP5670 on August 21, 2002, 11:03:04 am
I assumed that the rolling eyes smiley was a substitute for an argument. :p :D
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: phreak on August 21, 2002, 11:04:25 am
Quote

why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq?


the world is too squeamish and doesn't like to see blood on anyone's hands.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: CP5670 on August 21, 2002, 11:09:09 am
That unfortunately has some truth to it. :p
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Levyathan on August 21, 2002, 11:09:39 am
Quote
Originally posted by CP5670
I assumed that the rolling eyes smiley was a substitute for an argument. :p :D


I see your points. All three of them.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: CP5670 on August 21, 2002, 11:10:44 am
Three points? I was actually trying to make just one. :D
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Levyathan on August 21, 2002, 11:12:58 am
That's my point.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: CP5670 on August 21, 2002, 11:14:05 am
eh? You talked about three of them... :p
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Top Gun on August 21, 2002, 11:14:18 am
Quote
Originally posted by CP5670
You stated the last part very well there. As vyper said in an earlier thread, governments exist to protect their and only their populations. It does not matter if all the Iraqis get "blown up, maimed or straved" if it helps the Americans in any way, and this can be reduced to enough precision such that no opinions matter at all and everything can be objectively deduced from logic. I think that at some point there will be a single united government that rules the entire globe, but for today, this is the way the world works and how things stand.

It depends wherther people are honest about this, which is never the case, especially with politicians so stating it a couple of times wouldn't do a lot of harm. Wherther all governments are like this is a different matter.



Quote
Originally posted by CP5670
I doubt they would release all of the top secret information.

No but blair has tryed to associate Iraq with Al Quaeda (which the MI later said wasn't true) in order to whip up war fever.

Quote
Originally posted by CP5670
I don't quite trust the US government either to make truly rational decisions based on the information, looking at their history (e.g. irrational fear of communism), but these petty moral excuses that people use against them are just pathetic.

The Plutocratic US government's fear of Communism was not irrational. They had a lot to fear from it, seems as most of the US Reps and Senators are way, way above the National average wealth scale and are financed by large corporations (which really have a lot to fear for communism).



Quote
Originally posted by CP5670
I cannot see how this has anything whatsoever to do with the topic at hand. People apparently just love to use these moralistic excuses; the US may be the biggest, baddest monster regime in the world (and probably is), but so what? The Vietnam events were bad, but for completely different reasons. I have said this many times and I will say it again: the truly sensible nations do not fight for any stupid ethical values.



Someone's been reading Nietzche ;)


But those morals are generally the ones preached by the politicians (with small differences) and the ones heald by the sheeple, which will ultimately decide wherther there is war or not.

Of course if we want to drag this thread way off topic, we could discuss the purpose of life (to live according to logic, to aquire knowledge, to pursue happiness (which is silly seems a shot of cocaine will make you more happy than you could ever be naturally), human nature (which can be modified to suit the former) and how it relates to others.


Quote
Originally posted by CP5670
Someone get daveb in here... :D

I'm assuming you're after him for his (and mine in rebuking him) entertainment value. Seems as he argues upon ethics rather than logic.

Quote
Originally posted by CP5670
but they fight for the continued long-term survival of their people and their people alone.

Interesting and probably right, although it depends who you define as your people. people you share a geographical location with or people who share your ideology? Mind you, if everyone in the world made their decisions based on logic then there would be no difference between any of the peoples and no war.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Styxx on August 21, 2002, 11:22:14 am
Quote
Originally posted by Levyathan
That's my point.


:lol: :lol:

0wnage.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Levyathan on August 21, 2002, 11:23:37 am
Quote
Originally posted by CP5670
eh? You talked about three of them... :p


Argh. Read the thread again, from my first post. You might even get it.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: CP5670 on August 21, 2002, 11:40:50 am
I need to go at the moment so I will have to make this quick, but I will come back later. :D

Quote
The Plutocratic US government's fear of Communism was not irrational. They had a lot to fear from it, seems as most of the US Reps and Senators are way, way above the National average wealth scale and are financed by large corporations (which really have a lot to fear for communism)


Yeah, but the businesses they are not really serving the interests of the people of the nation as a whole; they only serve the interests of individuals trying to make money. I suppose the business executives had the necessary political influence to stir up this anti-communist fever at that time though. (and they still do, unfortunately) Hey, I am just as opposed to the corporations as you are. ;)

Quote
Someone's been reading Nietzche ;)


You got that one right. :D

Quote
Yes, morals mean nothing but it's in Humanity's interests to have a set (otherwise we wouldn't exist for very long). But those morals are generally the ones preached by the politicians (with small differences) and the ones heald by the sheeple, which will ultimately decide wherther there is war or not.


Yes, but the governments themselves do not actually exist for the interests of everyone; they were founded and still exist only to serve a certain group of people. A government that existed for the interests of humanity would be a true world government, but that will form a bit later. In today's world, if a government tried to follow the morals like a religion, they would get beaten into the ground right away by everyone else (a good example of this is 1930s India under Gandhi) and in a world containing partially moral/partially logical and fully logical nations, it is pretty obvious who would emerge the victors. ;)

Quote
Of course if we want to drag this thread way off topic, we could discuss the purpose of life (to live according to logic, to aquire knowledge, to pursue happiness (which is silly seems a shot of cocaine will make you more happy than you could ever be naturally), human nature (which can be modified to suit the former) and how it relates to others.


Well, all these things are continuously related anyway, so everything in the end must be considered to get a result... :D (Hegel once said that "the truth is the whole;" I love that statement :D)

Quote
Interesting and probably right, although it depends who you define as your people. people you share a geographical location with or people who share your ideology?


I would go for the latter here; it is true that the nations of today are united only by their location/birthplace for the most part, but this seems to be slowly giving away to the ideological bonds instead. (note how societies based on ideas seem to be forming everywhere today; these will only grow more powerful over time) In this situation, any Iraqis that agree with US ideologies will probably instigate rebellions as the fighting starts, thus helping the US side anyway; in fact, it is unknown how many of Hussein's forces are actually loyal to him and will continue fighting if he dies.

Quote
Argh. Read the thread again, from my first post. You might even get it.


Sorry, I looked over your posts again but cannot understand what you are trying to say. Could you elaborate a bit?
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: vyper on August 21, 2002, 12:06:34 pm
Destroyed iraqi regime=regional chaos

regional chaos=everyone out there fighting each other

everyone out there fighting each other=not fighting us.

:drevil:
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: CP5670 on August 21, 2002, 12:23:10 pm
That would also work. :D
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Styxx on August 21, 2002, 12:24:32 pm
Weren't you leaving?
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: CP5670 on August 21, 2002, 12:30:48 pm
Only for about 20 minutes. :D But I have to go again now, this time for several hours. (brother is here :mad: )
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Grey Wolf on August 21, 2002, 12:32:50 pm
Anyone have a price for property on the moon? At this rate, I figure that'll give me a nice view of the mushroom clouds.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Levyathan on August 21, 2002, 12:36:20 pm
Quote
Originally posted by CP5670
Sorry, I looked over your posts again but cannot understand what you are trying to say. Could you elaborate a bit?


Quote
Oh boy.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: an0n on August 21, 2002, 12:41:54 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Grey Wolf 2009
Anyone have a price for property on the moon? At this rate, I figure that'll give me a nice view of the mushroom clouds.
Ah, so you wish to live in the an0nian Lunar Facist Reich? Eeeexcellent.

*starts nuking randomly from orbit*
*nukes Greenland*
*resumes nuking randomly*
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Tiara on August 21, 2002, 01:18:31 pm
Quote
Originally posted by an0n
Eeeexcellent.


Were you the mad doctor from Hitman 47?
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Kellan on August 21, 2002, 04:17:57 pm
I seem to have arrived a little late for this party. I'm sure that what I'm about to say has been covered by an0n, Top Gun and others, but that won't stop me from saying it. So there. :p

*ahem*

Anyway, the reasons that I oppose war on Iraq are as follows. First, the facts:
Now for my idelogical objections. Feel free to sigh, groan or roll your eyes at this point. :)
Phew. Well, that's it for now.

Where's Stryke 9 when you really need him to dispense withering sarcasm on the supporters of Bush and the war on Iraq, eh? Don't make me take his place... ;)
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Silver_Scythe on August 21, 2002, 04:18:51 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Tiara


Again you act as if we kknow everything... WE DON'T! He might have dozens of 'm in a secret bunker somewhere...

BTW, The alqaida have demonstrated the capability to release chemical gasses. It was on the news. And not scared of a nuke? Wait till it blows near your...

That was cyanide with sulferic acid not as bad as it could be. *thinks about VEHIX*
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Kellan on August 21, 2002, 04:20:49 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Silver_Scythe

That was cyanide with sulferic acid not as bad as it could be. *thinks about VEHIX*


I say Smallpox. Go Smallpox! Go Smallpox! We're not vaccinated! And there's no cure! Wooh! :p
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Zeronet on August 21, 2002, 04:25:09 pm
Occupation? Where are ppl getting all these ideas from? One bullet can solve the problem, because the Regime in Iraq consists of one person, Sadamn Hussien. Let me quote something from the telegraph.

"his regime is grounded in fear, paranoia and cruelty. His food is checked for poision and radiation by nuclear scientists. He is the auther of bad books that no one dares criticise. He enjoys films like "The Godfather"- a good choice, for he is a man who can weep even as he orders his opponents to be wiped out. Welcome to the world of Saddamn Hussien."

Another quote "He is now 65, an old man, but because his power is grounded in fear, not affection, he cannot be seen to age."

Loads of losses? Fanatical armies? His people tried to rebell against him, he keeps them inline through fear and imtimidation. If someone says a bad word against him, bang they are shot dead. His own people hate him, he blames the crippling of the state on the UN and US, but his people understand its his fault, a quote "Whenever he started blaming Americans for this and that, we would look at each other and roll our eyes" says Sabah Khalifa Khodada, a former Iraqi major.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Kellan on August 21, 2002, 04:32:53 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Zeronet
Occupation? Where are ppl getting all these ideas from? One bullet can solve the problem, because the Regime in Iraq consists of one person, Sadamn Hussien. Let me quote something from the telegraph.


First of all, let me stop you there. You're quoting from the Telegraph, a right-wing Tory rag that carries traditional right-wing Tory ideas - such as a love for wars, regardless of requirement. And unconditional support for the military.

Second, Saddam can't run the country on his own. It's physically impossible. He would have to be surrounded by a large number of advisors, ministers and administrators who liked him to some degree - the people who make the decisions. He would also have to have a loyal cadre of People Who Carry Guns™, to protect him from Other Disgruntled People With Guns And Rocks. So yeah, street fighting, bombing cities flat. That kind of thing.

Third, Saddam has at least one son.

Quote
Loads of losses? Fanatical armies? His people tried to rebell against him, he keeps them inline through fear and imtimidation. If someone says a bad word against him, bang they are shot dead. His own people hate him, he blames the crippling of the state on the UN and US, but his people understand its his fault, a quote "Whenever he started blaming Americans for this and that, we would look at each other and roll our eyes" says Sabah Khalifa Khodada, a former Iraqi major. [/B]


How surprising that an Iraqi defector dislikes Saddam Hussain. Really, you're killing me. No, really. :rolleyes:
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Kellan on August 21, 2002, 04:49:28 pm
I await the next answer from the "MIGHT is RIGHT!" brigade with barely-contained glee. ;)
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Zeronet on August 21, 2002, 04:59:35 pm
This report is not opinion, its based on fact, this guy rose to power by executing 60 of his rivals in the Revolutionary Council.
Shoot Saddamn, and his whole government will collapse around him, of course he doesnt think up everything. He just orders the 20ft high posters of himself to be built. His bodyguards are called the Al Himaya, he does have sons, he executed his sons-inlaw because they fled to jordan and spilled state secrets on biological, chemcial and nuclear weapon programs and his son Uday is paralysed from the waist down after getting shot in Baghdad, a warning to Saddamn. The major evidence that Saddamn is hated, is the rebellion in 1991, which was brutally(gassed, bombed) put down. Acording to my logic, you dont rebel against a leader you like. After the restoration of the Baghdad palace, the workers were marched out with sacks over their heads and hanged one by one. He doesnt walk in public because its too dangerous and people will see his limp.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: LtNarol on August 21, 2002, 05:00:24 pm
I dont have much time, so I havent read all the posts since page 2, so Im sorry if this has been said.

Saddam is not afraid of a nuclear reprisal from the US.  Why you ask? Because all he needs to do is build his silos and production plants underground and dig himself in, and then fire them off one after another because the US will NOT use nukes on the general population of Iraq, simply because the general population of Iraq wants Saddam out as much as the US.  Even if the US does use nukes on the general population, do you really think Saddam would care?  As long as the bombs cant get to him, he's happy.  This is exactly why we know he does not have any nukes because if he did there'd be a nuclear winter in North America.

He has literally nothing to lose at this point and everything to gain, he also happens to hate the US with a vengeance.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Zeronet on August 21, 2002, 05:01:40 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Kellan
I await the next answer from the "MIGHT is RIGHT!" brigade with barely-contained glee. ;)


What would you do? Is everyone ignoring the horrible acts he commited against his own people simply because they dont like the US? Do people think the No Fly zone exists for other reasons besides preventing Saddamn bombing his people(which he used to do)
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Kellan on August 21, 2002, 05:05:30 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Zeronet
The major evidence that Saddamn is hated, is the rebellion in 1991, which was brutally(gassed, bombed) put down. Acording to my logic, you dont rebel against a leader you like. After the restoration of the Baghdad palace, the workers were marched out with sacks over their heads and hanged one by one. He doesnt walk in public because its too dangerous and people will see his limp.


So an 11 year-old rebellion is reason to go to war? IIRC, the only reason that said rebellion took place was because Bush Snr. told the revolutionary leaders that he would support them in their uprising. Which he did not. Hence, they all died.

On the subject, there are always rebellions against unpopular dictators and they are always put down brutally. It's just that more often than not, they're Western-sponsored dictators. If you're going to lay down the law that unpopular unelected leaders should be deposed, Zeronet, at least do it uniformly. It reeks of hipocrisy otherwise.

Just like the rest of the Western response, so maybe it makes sense.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: an0n on August 21, 2002, 05:05:39 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Zeronet
Acording to my logic, you dont rebel against a leader you like

Duh. But it's a matter of how many people dislike him. Just because a few malcontents decide to start some trouble doesn't mean the rest hate him. A classica example of this noisy minority syndrome is football hooliganism. A few retards start causing trouble and immediately everyone worldwide thinks all british fans are violent retards.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Zeronet on August 21, 2002, 05:06:09 pm
Quote
Originally posted by LtNarol
I dont have much time, so I havent read all the posts since page 2, so Im sorry if this has been said.

Saddam is not afraid of a nuclear reprisal from the US.  Why you ask? Because all he needs to do is build his silos and production plants underground and dig himself in, and then fire them off one after another because the US will NOT use nukes on the general population of Iraq, simply because the general population of Iraq wants Saddam out as much as the US.  Even if the US does use nukes on the general population, do you really think Saddam would care?  As long as the bombs cant get to him, he's happy.  This is exactly why we know he does not have any nukes because if he did there'd be a nuclear winter in North America.

He has literally nothing to lose at this point and everything to gain, he also happens to hate the US with a vengeance.


Saddamn only cares about power, he doesnt care much about money, as much as he does vanity. He proclaims he is related to Mohammed, statues, posters are all over Iraq. He simply wants to be known and famous, forever.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: an0n on August 21, 2002, 05:10:51 pm
Z: You're wrong. Shut up! No matter how much you argue, it won't make you right. And you can spout 'facts' all you want, but the fact of the matter is that you're just spouting propaganda from some of the most biased sources known to man. If you want to understand what's really going on, don't read articles and opinions, read facts and figures and make up your own opinion from them instead of some pseudo opinion formed from the mush of brainwashing the media has thrown at you.

Fight the power!
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Kellan on August 21, 2002, 05:11:29 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Zeronet
What would you do? Is everyone ignoring the horrible acts he commited against his own people simply because they dont like the US? Do people think the No Fly zone exists for other reasons besides preventing Saddamn bombing his people(which he used to do)


Since you ask so nicely... :p

1. Send weapons inspectors into Iraq. Make clear that if Saddam defies us, we'll go to war.
2. Re-establish diplomatic relations with Iraq, fund non-military reconstruction based on conditions of peace and non-violence. If Saddam is so unpopular he should be desperate to improve his public image with this.
3. Make a series of escalatingly liberal demands of Saddam. At best, we'd get them. At worst, we'd go to war and be in no worse a position than for having not tried.

Basically, you're still missing the point. I don't oppose all war per se, it's just that at the present moment war is unneccessary. All non-military options have not been exhausted. Saddam presents no more of a threat now than he did 5 years ago. And don't tell me that the West has suddenly grown a conscience about all those people Saddam killed.

In addition, you think a war makes things happy and shiny? Wars are dirty. Wars leave damage. Damage must be repaired, and I have no confidence that the West will finance this in order to improve the lot of the ordinary Iraqi people.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Kellan on August 21, 2002, 05:13:53 pm
Quote
Originally posted by an0n
Z: You're wrong. Shut up! No matter how much you argue, it won't make you right. And you can spout 'facts' all you want, but the fact of the matter is that you're just spouting propaganda from some of the most biased sources known to man. If you want to understand what's really going on, don't read articles and opinions, read facts and figures and make up your own opinion from them instead of some pseudo opinion formed from the mush of brainwashing the media has thrown at you.

Fight the power!


I never thought that I'd be thanking the Lord for an0n as the voice of reason. But still...it's nice to have you around, man. :D

As for the rebellion thing: I fully agree. Just because a few thousand protesters claim that the government is wrong and capitalism is wrong every May Day doesn't mean there's a popular uprising. Nor does it mean that we need to US Army to depose Tony Blair for us. ;)
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: RandomTiger on August 21, 2002, 05:16:34 pm
Quote
Originally posted by an0n
A classica example of this noisy minority syndrome is football hooliganism. A few retards start causing trouble and immediately everyone worldwide thinks all british fans are violent retards.


Japan were crapping themselves about this. Most shops even took out special hooligan insurance and many others just didnt open while English fans were there. Dont think very much actually happened in the end. Shame, I would have liked to see the Japanese police deal with those thugs. They dont take any crap it would seem.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: an0n on August 21, 2002, 05:21:23 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Kellan
I never thought that I'd be thanking the Lord for an0n as the voice of reason. But still...it's nice to have you around, man. :D
No! I'm melting...meeeeltiiiinngg.....Oh, what world..........
Quote
Nor does it mean that we need to US Army to depose Tony Blair for us. ;)
Don't worry, they'll get to that soon enough.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: RandomTiger on August 21, 2002, 05:29:24 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Kellan

As for the rebellion thing: I fully agree. Just because a few thousand protesters claim that the government is wrong and capitalism is wrong every May Day doesn't mean there's a popular uprising.


I wouldnt be so sure about that, May Day seems to be getting bigger and bigger and drawing some very resectable people as well. I think it says something that our leaders have to meet in totally remote areas or even warships to hide from their own people. Also something that many Americans may not realise is that whenever Bush goes anywhere in Europe there are usually significant numbers of demonstrators.

Capitalism is clearly flawed at worst unethical. Sadly up until now its been the best, most stable option for most of the world. Doesnt mean we have to stick with it and I believe that if developed countries dont run into any big problems that distract them that their governments will eventually be forced by popular uprisings to change bit by bit to better systems.

Quote

Nor does it mean that we need to US Army to depose Tony Blair for us. ;)


What on earth are you talking about?
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: vyper on August 21, 2002, 05:30:14 pm
Iraq is hostile to both the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northen Ireland, and the United States. Iraq has the finance and the will to develop weapons in all the most feared categories (bio,chemical, nuclear). Therefore, it is in the best interests of both above countries to protect thier population from any future possible attack by destroying the current regime and any weapons (again, above) they may have.

If you want a fair fight, go join a boxing club. This the real world, with real politics and real consequences.

On the world stage there is no room for having a heart.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: an0n on August 21, 2002, 05:32:51 pm
Quote
Originally posted by vyper
.....the will to develop weapons in all the most feared categories (bio,chemical, nuclear). Therefore, it is in the best interests of both above countries to protect thier population from any future possible attack by destroying the current regime and any weapons (again, above) they may have.

WTF!?! Hell, I can make chemical weapons in my bath-tub. It's not hard (just extremely dangerous). You want the US army to come and obliterate me............don't answer that.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Zeronet on August 21, 2002, 05:34:08 pm
Wanna know what the word from Iraq  is on weapon inspectors? They said no, "because the jobs already done and its supposedly obvivous that Iraq has no NBC weapons". His refusal to allow weapon inspectors will be the deciding factor on whether the US gets a UN mandate probably, cos soon, their stalling actions will fail and the UN will realise they have only one option. Saddamn says no currently, which is why i favour an armed resolution. The man simply wont listen to anything else, he is 100% insane. All we demanded since 1998, is for him to let Weapons inspectors back in! Its 4 years down the road and he still says no! how long do you propose we wait? All the money we allow him to get, gets spent on military hardware, while his people starve. We made it clear we'd kill him if he didnt let them in and he wont. We all know they are spies, its just Saddamn doesnt want them to find his weapons.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: an0n on August 21, 2002, 05:37:41 pm
Okay. Time to end this argument:

an0n and lackeys:
[size=18]Right[/size]

Zeronet and lackeys:
Wrong
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Zeronet on August 21, 2002, 05:40:57 pm
Should it be Zeronet and lackeys "left", if your giving directions to where groups are located :p
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: an0n on August 21, 2002, 05:41:59 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Zeronet
Should it be Zeronet and lackeys "left", if your giving directions to where groups are located :p
See this is why you're ideas are screwed up. You can't understand basic principles of right and wrong.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: an0n on August 21, 2002, 05:47:02 pm
*claims victory*
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Zeronet on August 21, 2002, 05:47:54 pm
Oh i see, your talking about Just and unjust. I,ve always prefered to use those terms as opposed to right and wrong. let me state my opinion

"If Iraq doesnt let weapon inspectors back in, Then a war against Iraq is JUST and the right thing to do."
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: RandomTiger on August 21, 2002, 05:48:53 pm
Quote
Originally posted by vyper
If you want a fair fight, go join a boxing club. This the real world, with real politics and real consequences.

On the world stage there is no room for having a heart.


When people feel theres no way to get anything done without killing people its usually called terrorism.

Violence breads violence, I think that is clearly demonstrated on the world stage at the moment. Iraq is a tricky one since if we do nothing at all he will (if hes as mad as everyone says) do something awful. Doesnt mean violence should be our first option.

Saddam clearly wants to be the leader who brings east against west and if we are not careful we will play into his hands.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: an0n on August 21, 2002, 05:50:06 pm
Quote
Oh i see, your talking about Just and unjust. I,ve always prefered to use those terms as opposed to right and wrong. let me state my opinion

"If Iraq doesnt let weapon inspectors back in, Then a war against Iraq is JUST and the right thing to do."

Did you even read anything I posted?
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on August 21, 2002, 06:29:10 pm
Read up on Arab Armies (http://www.unc.edu/depts/diplomat/AD_Issues/amdipl_17/articles/deatkine_arabs1.html) and their internal culture first. An internal culture which is partly (if not completely) caused by the ex-army situation of local society.


From www.strategypage.com (http://www.strategypage.com/):

August 21, 2002; Fort Riley, Kansas, home to two heavy mechanized brigades, has repainted all of its equipment in desert tan, although the troops remain in European woodland (green). Several National Guard units coming to Riley for training all showed up in desert cammo. The New Hampshire National Guard was just issued new trucks in desert colors with orders not to repaint them.--Stephen V Cole


If this is true, and it seems it is, then the attack will go ahead at some point.

This is a series of posts from the Europa Universalis Board.

Quote
Originally by Crazy_Ivan80
P.S. the West may be dependent on oil, it is not dependen on Middel Eastern oil. In case of a prolongued oil-war the ME would only be hurting itself financially, economically, etc...

In case of such a conlict the west would end up on top because:

1. the west has all the hardware, that includes the long range delivery systems fo when things go pearshaped. In such a case we can make things go mushroom shaped (as a last result), the ME can't (in comparison).

2. when cut of from ME oil the west can go lok for alternative sources, which are almost all in the hands of western aligned countries, or countries which are becoming western. This would mean short term pain for the west, but long term pain for the ME as their entire economies are built on oil.

3. The west also has the luxury of being able to go search for alternative powersources, especially so since much of the tech is already there.


Quote
Originally by Keynes
Bingo. Among the problems of the scenario, it misunsderstands the contemporary economics of oil. In the early 70s, the ME oil countries were still relatively poor and had just secured full control over their oil supplies. So a boycott was a realistic strategy. Now these states have built vast bureaucracies, welfare states and patronage networks all funded solely from the flow of oil dollars. If they cut of spigot off, the system collapses. Thats why with regard to eg Iraq - its not Iraq that threatens to cut off oil supplies unless the West agrees to leave it alone, but the *West* that refuses to *buy* the oil unless the Iraqis do as they are told.


Quote
Originally by Kronn
Bingo. The ME oil nations are just as much dependent on oil sales as their customer's economies are dependent on it. We rarely see OPEC or probably more accurately, the Saudis, wanting to raise oil prices too much as to cause a recession or downturn in their customer's economies, since that means a reduction in oil sales.


Conclusion: Oil is a weapon the West can use to far greater effect than the Arab nation could because we can easily secure other supplies, or use our own. The Arab economies depend solely on oil.


However, the thread should the US attack Iraq without the proper alliance building and/or legal trappings then the Middle East will blow up in its face. In all our faces. Maybe not militarily (since they can't fight and win against the US) but in other, more underhand ways (OBL multiplied). That is a very real threat.

Several things to take into account:

1- Israel, as western ally (don't be fooled by criticism from Europe or others. The majority knows full well that Isreal is the good guy there), is extremely vulnerable to a massive arab attack, or massive arab terror attack. Lets not forget that several arab nations have missiles and that Iraq in particular still has SCUDS (or would't have to much trouble getting some). Those Missiles can be equipped with NBC weapons (though Saddam probably only has chemo and maybe bio weapons). Israel on the other hand has nukes and has, rightly so, said it will retaliate in force when attacked by NBC weapons (or if the nation is threatened by emminent demise)

2- Currently, due to Bin Laden, Islamitic fanticism (the real Islamo-Fascists) and stupid remaks by Bush and Co (Like Axis of Terror), the Islamic world (From Marocco to Indonesia) is convinced that the War on Terror is indeed a War against Islam. We all know they are wrong, but the people there don't know (and the governments there aren't going to tell them either... US hate is way to useful for that). So the past year has indeed succeeded in united the muslim world by using the oldest trick in the book: (percieved) mutual enemy: in this case the U.S (and close second: Europe). This could easily translate into action in the case of a US attack on Iraq.

---> currently both Sunni and Shi'a branches are united in their hatred for the US.

3- Also, several key allies in the region are dubious regimes at best, beyond contempt at worst. Those regimes aren't really stable due to their own stupidity and could be toppled, or change sides when threatened with demise, in case of a US attack. That would bring regimes into place that are even more anti US/West, and those regimes would not be unwilling to commit to attacking the US/Isreal either (which puts us back at 1). In case Pakistan: they have nukes and the missiles to deliver them anywhere in the region be that India or Israel (and they'd probably launch at both!). So it is vital that the US continues its policy of Divide et Impera Divide and Conquer/Rule. Only by keeping the Arab nations divided the US can win a conflict in Iraq easily, and that means Coalition Building.

---> following from 2 and 3: an attack could possible unite arch-enemies Iraq and Iran against the US. To prevent this a Pro-Iran policy might be usefull.


4- In case events go wrong: have people thought about that 5th column most Western nations could potentially have? Europe especially. We have large muslim communities in Europe, of which a sufficiently large number are fanatic and hostile towards us to pose a threat. How bad the problem really is would only be known when it happens, but in case of war I beleive surveillance of the muslim communities will increase, just like it did during the GIA (Algerian fanatics) period or when 11/09/01 (dd/mm/yy!!!!) happened. in any case: it ties down resources.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Mr. Vega on August 21, 2002, 08:24:49 pm
Ghandi was right.....an eye for an eye until the whole world goes blind
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Sandwich on August 21, 2002, 09:02:30 pm
Quote
Originally posted by CP5670
Someone get daveb in here... :D


Heh - he anticipated this kind of discussion cropping up, so he sent me this link about 9 days ago:

http://www.lileks.com/screed/college.html

Perhaps not exactly in line with the discussion, but an interesting read nontheless. :D
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Pegasus V on August 21, 2002, 11:21:20 pm
US is good, Iraq is evil. It's as simple as that. Bush and the US have not done anything bad to the world. They're trying to help it along by removing terrorists and building the economy to make their civilisation better for their civilians. Iraq has broken the treaty and simply deserves the consequences. I believe the US should be given supreme authority on Earth (like the GTVA in FreeSpace). But of course no-one else would want that. I don't even live or have even visited the US, but this is what I want.

Bobboau you mentioned the contributions of US-UK-Canada as the main contributors of the war against terrorism. But Australia has supplied much more forces than Canada. You should include us in that evaluation. Australia will support the US if any strike is made on Iraq and of course will contribute.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: CP5670 on August 21, 2002, 11:27:23 pm
I don't have the time to write a full response to the stuff posted so far; I'll try sometime tomorrow. :D

Quote
Ghandi was right.....an eye for an eye until the whole world goes blind


They will still have the other eye, though. :D Actually, what would happen here is that some people (the victors) would still have the "eyes" left and thus human history would continue on.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Kellan on August 22, 2002, 03:14:12 am
Quote
Originally posted by Zeronet
Should it be Zeronet and lackeys "left", if your giving directions to where groups are located :p


If you think you're on the Left of this debate then you're crazier than I thought. :p

Quote
In case events go wrong: have people thought about that 5th column most Western nations could potentially have? Europe especially. We have large muslim communities in Europe, of which a sufficiently large number are fanatic and hostile towards us to pose a threat. How bad the problem really is would only be known when it happens, but in case of war I beleive surveillance of the muslim communities will increase, just like it did during the GIA (Algerian fanatics) period or when 11/09/01 (dd/mm/yy!!!!) happened. in any case: it ties down resources.[/b]


Ivan, this seems to me nothing more than scaremongering. The reason that some 5th Columnists are so prominent is because they're few in number. The majority of British Muslims - and presumably other European Muslims - consider themselves British, although their religion is a large part of their self-identity. The majority are also economic migrants or refugees from mistreatment in Arab nations. I should expect that some would be happy to see Saudi Arabia etc toppled.

The only possible way I can see Muslims becoming a problem is if someone is stupid enough to make this a war against Islam.

In the meantime, scaremongering like that will lead to fear in both communities and possible reprisals. In fact, why don't we just have a nice Pogrom and wipe them out now? It will save Aryan Britain some trouble in the future. :rolleyes:

Quote
US is good, Iraq is evil. It's as simple as that. Bush and the US have not done anything bad to the world. They're trying to help it along by removing terrorists and building the economy to make their civilisation better for their civilians. Iraq has broken the treaty and simply deserves the consequences. I believe the US should be given supreme authority on Earth (like the GTVA in FreeSpace). But of course no-one else would want that. I don't even live or have even visited the US, but this is what I want.[/b]


If the jaw smilie was still around, I would need a row of them. As it is, I'll just have to settle for :eek: :eek2: :nervous: :shaking: :blah:

Bush and the US have not done anything bad to the world? Don't make me laugh. Every country has done bad things, although the US is first among equals, at the very least. Let;s see what I can think of off the top of my head. Bombing Cambodia? Bombing Granada? Embargo against Cuba? Tearing up the ABM Treaty, the Climate Change Protocol, the Chemical Weapons Proliferation Treaty? Being the world's largest polluter (25% of all CO2 emissions with only a few percent of the world population)?

The leaders of the US are only "helping Iraq along" if helping means 'with a gun in the back'. As for improving their economy, they're doing it slowly but with little regard for environmental consequences and profiting greatly from the process in the meantime.

I don't believe that any country is ready for global governance - nor, as you concede, is the world ready for (formal) rule by the US. Besides, if the US was in charge of the world I think you'd quickly find there wasn't much world left to be in charge of. :doubt:

Now I'm gonna read that article...
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Pegasus V on August 22, 2002, 03:26:32 am
Bush, Clinton and Bush have done a great job managing a superpower. What would you do if you were in their position? At least they're not using everyone as slaves or bombing countries without cause or supporting terrorism or killing anyone who opposes their regime. Need I go on? What would you do if you were President of the USA?
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Kellan on August 22, 2002, 03:42:07 am
Quote
Originally posted by Pegasus V
Bush, Clinton and Bush have done a great job managing a superpower. What would you do if you were in their position? At least they're not using everyone as slaves or bombing countries without cause or supporting terrorism or killing anyone who opposes their regime. Need I go on? What would you do if you were President of the USA?


My ideology would require something fairly radically different which probably isn't possible given the current state of the American public. For a start though, I'd pay more attention to the environment. It'd be a bummer to win your war against terrorism in time to see New York flooded and us choking on smog. :lol:

I didn't have a problem with the first Gulf War. Nor did I have a problem with Clinton except over things like bombing a Syrian paracetamol factory and other such foolishness.

From a current and historical perspective though, I'm going to put your statement that the US does not, and never has bombed countries without cause, supported terrorism etc.

1. The US provides financial support to the Colombian government, which in turn employs death squads.
2. The US provided financial support to General Pinochet, who committed acts of terrorism against his people.
3. US corporations funded the apartheid regime in South Africa. The US government did nothing.
4. The US bombed Cambodia - with more munitions than used in WW2 - just because it was Communist.
5. They then funded and supported Pol Pot, the incumbent Cambodian dictator - one of the worst modern terrorist leaders.

6. Most interesting of all is the story of the small island of Granada. The US thought that the new government there was hostile to the US and would attempt terrorism, so they pre-emptively struck, bombarbing it from the sea and destroying homes, businesses and the island's only airport. The only US casualties were 4 SEALS who drowned because their equipment was faulty.

In response the government of Granada took the US to the UN. Although the UN ruled that America's attack on Granada was not allowed by international law, the US overruled it, because it has a veto. Granada then went to the NATO security council but again, were overruled.

As you can see, the US exploits international law to its advantage. Of course it always appears good, in part because of US media proliferation, and in part because it writes international law.

Need I go on? :blah:
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Tiara on August 22, 2002, 03:53:02 am
Quote
Originally posted by an0n
You want the US army to come and obliterate me....


:nod:
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on August 22, 2002, 03:54:16 am
Quote
Originally posted by Kellan



Ivan, this seems to me nothing more than scaremongering. The reason that some 5th Columnists are so prominent is because they're few in number. The majority of British Muslims - and presumably other European Muslims - consider themselves British, although their religion is a large part of their self-identity. The majority are also economic migrants or refugees from mistreatment in Arab nations. I should expect that some would be happy to see Saudi Arabia etc toppled.

The only possible way I can see Muslims becoming a problem is if someone is stupid enough to make this a war against Islam.

In the meantime, scaremongering like that will lead to fear in both communities and possible reprisals. In fact, why don't we just have a nice Pogrom and wipe them out now? It will save Aryan Britain some trouble in the future. :rolleyes:




Things on the continent are not as peachy asin britain, kellan. The number of conservative, and even fanatical muslims is far greater in Continental Europa than in Britain. And they're a lot more dangerous too. Usually national security handles them but some groups seem to have made it through the 'net' and have established themselves. So there certainly is a possiblility for a '5th column'. But like in the original post it is all about 'IF'.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Tiara on August 22, 2002, 04:04:58 am
In this thread I have seen the worst stupidity ever (Not by all of you though :p) Some of you are talking as if Hussein is a push over... Even if we might win the war, have you ever thought about the impact that it would cause?



Sure, Saddam is a pain in the backside... But you can't just overrun him. I'm sure there are enough 'fanatical' Muslims in America to perform suicide bombing... Maybe more American/European citizens would die then ppl in the middle east.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Pegasus V on August 22, 2002, 04:06:14 am
Quote
Originally posted by Kellan
...The US thought that the new government there was hostile to the US and would attempt terrorism...


Maybe they were... Are you saying they weren't? When did all this happen?
Title: Re: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Razor on August 22, 2002, 04:48:05 am
Quote
Originally posted by Bobboau
well, I was just waching the news of the embasy thing and I sudenly had a question I could not answer
why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq,
(other than the Iraqies themselves)
do you think the husien regiem is a good thing?
do you think the crushing economic and political preasure aren't enough?
do you think they realy like him as there ruler?
come on! this guy is the best thing sence Hitler,
why is it that nobody and I mean nobody (we arn't even getting Canada to come along!!!) wants to rip Husein from power other than us?


One answer - "Because they didn't ask you for your opinion" :p
Title: UN Forces
Post by: Star Dragon on August 22, 2002, 05:53:16 am
Opinion on UN forces - Waste of time, money , and effort. Also the main reason the US has to go in cause at least WE do something. TRUE our leadership often changes horses but that's cause the're human and can be swayed by politics (few in this world can truly be committed to a goal).

     On Terrorists - That's why you have to understand the mind of a suicide bomber. They hate you, they will kill you, if their death is necissary to accomplish that goal so be it (it wil be done). That is why when I see clips of people (in any country) Burning our flag, and chanting 'Death to America' I say bring it on, let's get it over once and for all, winner takes everything!

On Iraq - One bullet can change the world (Kennedy). Last thing I'll say is "I'm gonna get into this Robot and KICK YOUR ASS!" - Gary Grahm (Robot Jox)...
Title: Re: UN Forces
Post by: Tiara on August 22, 2002, 06:02:02 am
Quote
Originally posted by Star Dragon
Opinion on UN forces - Waste of time, money , and effort. Also the main reason the US has to go in cause at least WE do something.


I truly despise this... You act as if America is THE best country in the world. They are NOT. They may have grown big they but that doesn't mean they can just decide what to do with the world.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Carl on August 22, 2002, 06:07:54 am
you know, it still baffles me why people hate us so much. America is probably the most generous, selfless nation to ever exsist on the planet earth. we've sent more aid and suppies than any other country, but people still hate us. you know, if saddam really did nuke us, the whole world would go down the toilet.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Kellan on August 22, 2002, 06:08:27 am
Quote
Originally posted by Pegasus V
Maybe they were... Are you saying they weren't? When did all this happen?


They weren't. For gadssakes, the island was tiny. It had one airport, recently built, that was commerical in nature. As it happened, the US eventually quietly withdrew its forces, offering no vindication nor apology/compensation.

Having read the article that Sandwich and daveb directed us to, I have to say that it plays on the emotions and on very obvious religious stereotypes more than it offers concrete evidence. By the logic of the article, I would be no more at fault if I opposed US/Christian world domination because the Bible has some incredibly archaic passages?

So, um...Christianity is all well and good, right? But how about the bits where it says women can't have jobs outside the home, or homosexuals should be killed and will go to hell, and how, when waging war it is important not only to kill the fighting men but to kill the civilians, men, women, children and cattle?

Oh, but you say that Christianity has evolved past that. That the vast majority of people are moderate in-between the poles of extremism. Funny that no other religion is like that, hmm? :rolleyes: :doubt:
Title: Re: Re: UN Forces
Post by: vyper on August 22, 2002, 06:09:33 am
Quote
Originally posted by Tiara


I truly despise this... You act as if America is THE best country in the world. They are NOT. They may have grown big they but that doesn't mean they can just decide what to do with the world.


*sits in corner waving little Union Jack*

Am I implying we are the best in the world? Surely not? *whips out Saltire*
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Kellan on August 22, 2002, 06:12:10 am
Quote
Originally posted by Carl
you know, it still baffles me why people hate us so much. America is probably the most generous, selfless nation to ever exsist on the planet earth. we've sent more aid and suppies than any other country, but people still hate us. you know, if saddam really did nuke us, the whole world would go down the toilet.


Nah-ah. America donates about 0.11% of it's GDP annually to foreign aid - or in other words, 11 cents in every $1000. That's a pitiful amount compared to the World Bank target of 4% GDP. Only countries like Denmark, Sweden, Norway and Holland meet or exceed that.

And you are confusing hating the American government's foreign policy with hating American people in general. I like the people. I hate the President. :p
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Tiara on August 22, 2002, 06:14:17 am
Quote
Originally posted by Kellan

Only countries like Denmark, Sweden, Norway and Holland meet or exceed that.


*Waves Dutch flag*

Thank you for stating so... ;)
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Kellan on August 22, 2002, 06:15:33 am
Quote
Originally posted by Tiara


*Waves Dutch flag*

Thank you for stating so... ;)


Credit where it's due, Tiara. If only we were a bit more like the Dutch. :)
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: vyper on August 22, 2002, 06:15:59 am
I've suddenly realised why many people don't want to go into Iraq. They're afraid we get drawn into a long term war with her allies and hence might get called up.... :nervous:


"If one good man does not act in the face of wrong, if one liberty is taken, if one cheek turned... then the first link of a chain is forged that binds us all"
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Kellan on August 22, 2002, 06:18:13 am
Quote
Originally posted by vyper
I've suddenly realised why many people don't want to go into Iraq. They're afraid we get drawn into a long term war with her allies and hence might get called up.... :nervous:


Oh, I see. The "call us all cowards" ploy. :lol:

I'm still undecided about the morality of fighting. Depends if the war in just or unjust - but even if it's just, I might still have moral objections about killing etc.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Tiara on August 22, 2002, 06:18:44 am
Quote
Originally posted by Kellan


Credit where it's due, Tiara. If only we were a bit more like the Dutch. :)


Now only if we coould have some better looking Minister-Presidents we'd be settled. :D

Quote
Originally posted by Kellan


Oh, I see. The "call us all cowards" ploy. :lol:

I'm still undecided about the morality of fighting. Depends if the war in just or unjust - but even if it's just, I might still have moral objections about killing etc.


Exactly!
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Carl on August 22, 2002, 06:19:28 am
Quote
Originally posted by Kellan
So, um...Christianity is all well and good, right? But how about the bits where it says women can't have jobs outside the home, or homosexuals should be killed and will go to hell, and how, when waging war it is important not only to kill the fighting men but to kill the civilians, men, women, children and cattle?


let's not let this turn into a religious discussion, because i will lock it the second it does.

and btw, it doesn't say women shouldn't have jobs outside the home, homosexuals are going to hell because they don't believe in God, and the war thing was a special case during the Isreal reconquest of canaan.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Kellan on August 22, 2002, 06:19:47 am
Quote
Originally posted by Tiara
Now only if we coould have some better looking Minister-Presidents we'd be settled. :D


:lol:

You like a man in a suit, or are you attracted to the power?
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Tiara on August 22, 2002, 06:20:26 am
Quote
Originally posted by Carl


let's not let this turn into a religious discussion, because i will lock it the second it does.

and btw, it doesn't say women shouldn't have jobs outside the home, homosexuals are going to hell because they don't believe in God, and the war thing was a special case during the Isreal reconquest of canaan.


First you say we shouldn't make it a religion thread and you start religoin talk.. :wtf: :p
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Carl on August 22, 2002, 06:22:17 am
just showing you your errors before going on to the original purpose of this thread, which is that we should attack iraq.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Kellan on August 22, 2002, 06:23:44 am
Quote
Originally posted by Carl
let's not let this turn into a religious discussion, because i will lock it the second it does.


I promise that this will be my last word on religion except in passing, but hear me out for this. And don't lock the thread. I like it. :)

Quote
homosexuals are going to hell because they don't believe in God, and the war thing was a special case during the Isreal reconquest of canaan. [/B]


How do homosexuals not believe in God? I know a gay person who is a Christian, y'know. Unless someone has actually rejected God you can't just assume that they have. And as for the war thing, what about the Crusades and so on?

Anyway, that's not my point. Those were just randomly picked examples. My point is that saying that all Muslims want to stone women to death, kill children and so on - like the article was saying - is tantamount to religious hatred. I bet that I couldn't get away with an article in which I played on myths about Jews, or claimed they "drank blood" or any of that ****. I'd be crucified, so to speak. :blah:

So cool the religious hatred, m'kay?
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Carl on August 22, 2002, 06:23:57 am
Quote
Originally posted by Kellan
Nah-ah. America donates about 0.11% of it's GDP annually to foreign aid - or in other words, 11 cents in every $1000. That's a pitiful amount compared to the World Bank target of 4% GDP. Only countries like Denmark, Sweden, Norway and Holland meet or exceed that.


it's still more money. bah, we don't even have to give anything.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Tiara on August 22, 2002, 06:24:04 am
Quote
Originally posted by Carl
just showing you your errors before going on to the original purpose of this thread, which is that we should attack iraq.


...or shouldn't... (yet)
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Kellan on August 22, 2002, 06:25:17 am
Quote
Originally posted by Carl
just showing you your errors before going on to the original purpose of this thread, which is that we should attack iraq.


You're distorting the thread if you start out from the assumption that we should attack Iraq. The question asked should be "should we attack Iraq?" A slight change in wording has a big change in meaning.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Tiara on August 22, 2002, 06:25:25 am
Quote
Originally posted by Carl


it's still more money. bah, we don't even have to give anything.


If the US would give 4% to foreign aid like some (:D) other countries do many problems could be solved.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Kellan on August 22, 2002, 06:26:50 am
Quote
Originally posted by Carl

it's still more money. bah, we don't even have to give anything.


Yeah, 'cause it's not like American wealth rests on slavery, exploitation of the Third World and war profiteering, is it? Is it? :doubt: The West in general needs to be more generous, given that average income in the West is 37 times greater than in the Third World. Tiara is right that 3.89% more would solve a lot of problems, and excusing yourself by saying you have a bigger economy anyway is no excuse at all. Bottom line: the Netherlands sacrifice more for a better future for the Third World than The US does.

I'll go off and find the new World Bank report that was published today. I think it deserves its own thread, though.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: icespeed on August 22, 2002, 06:28:12 am
any talk about politics is pointless, but I'd like to make several points anyway:

- quoting newspapers = quoting Western propaganda, which is obviously biased, unless you quote Iraqian (or whatever) propaganda; in which case its biased the other way. There's no such thing as unbiased media, so if you want proof you can't quote newspapers.
- America is neither the worse country nor the best country. It is merely a country whose actions are the most noticeable, and therefore it's mistakes and (insert the antonym; i can't think of it at the moment) are also the most noticeable
- the only way to become the leader is to get rid of your opponents. Saddam Hussein merely did this in a more extreme way.

in any case, attacking Iraq without fully thinking it through is stupid.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: NeoHunter on August 22, 2002, 06:29:35 am
The reason why I think America shouldn't just go into Iraq is simple. How can you just go into another country and oust the president as and when you like? For god's sake! There's something called the United Nations. If the US can go into other countries as and when they like, then what's the use of having a United Nations at all? It would become rather redundant, don't you think? The United Nations is where problems in the world can be discussed and solved peacefully. War should be the last thing on everybody's minds.

Just because America has one of the most advanced and most powerful military does not mean they should do whatever they like. Its not like I am against America. I think America has brought many technological advancements into this world. But everyday I read the newspapers and I see America this and America that. Its like they want to be the world's policeman.

Some of you may not know it but a lot of countries think the US is a bit too much of a busybody. Always poking their noses into other countries domestic problems. Especially China and other communist countries. Why bother with them?

And also the industries that sell arms to other countries. They know that there is tension between Taiwan and China. Selling defensive weapons to Taiwan was bad enough. Sure. You would say that it was sold to Taiwan for defense. Fine. But now these same industries are selling OFFENSIVE weapons to Taiwan?! WTF??!! And the US government doesn't even care! Is the US trying to start a war here or something?
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Tiara on August 22, 2002, 06:32:24 am
:nod: @ NeoHunter & Kellan & Icespeed
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Kellan on August 22, 2002, 06:33:33 am
Quote
Originally posted by icespeed
any talk about politics is pointless, but I'd like to make several points anyway:

- quoting newspapers = quoting Western propaganda, which is obviously biased, unless you quote Iraqian (or whatever) propaganda; in which case its biased the other way. There's no such thing as unbiased media, so if you want proof you can't quote newspapers.
- America is neither the worse country nor the best country. It is merely a country whose actions are the most noticeable, and therefore it's mistakes and (insert the antonym; i can't think of it at the moment) are also the most noticeable
- the only way to become the leader is to get rid of your opponents. Saddam Hussein merely did this in a more extreme way.

in any case, attacking Iraq without fully thinking it through is stupid.


I'd say that talking about politics is essential. If we don't, someone else will do something without our knowledge or consent, and by the time it's done it'll be too late.

However, I generally agree with the rest of your statements. All countries have blood on their hands but at the moment, America is the one people scrutinise. Fifty years ago it was Britain. However, that time Britain at least gave up its colonialist fantasies. And yes, I'm sure that Bush called in favours to economically beat his opponents or to blackmail them or use the internal politics of the Republican Party against them. He didn't have the luxury of bullets, but the priniciple is the same.

About biased media: you can always try to look for more or less biased media - but since every person has an inherent bias, the less biased ones are certainly more acceptable in a mass-concensus way.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: icespeed on August 22, 2002, 06:34:24 am
Neo! You've hit it right on the spot! THat's exactly what the US is trying to do!
It's an American conspiracy against the rest of the world and because it's America, they'll win!

( WARNING: Do not take this post seriously. It's meant to be taken in the spirit of a _joke_.)
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Kellan on August 22, 2002, 06:35:07 am
Quote
Originally posted by NeoHunter
The reason why I think America shouldn't just go into Iraq is simple. How can you just go into another country and oust the president as and when you like? For god's sake! There's something called the United Nations. If the US can go into other countries as and when they like, then what's the use of having a United Nations at all? It would become rather redundant, don't you think? The United Nations is where problems in the world can be discussed and solved peacefully. War should be the last thing on everybody's minds.


Oh thank the Lord. Somebody shows the necessary brainpower to understand the ideological precedent that this attack would set. :yes:
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: icespeed on August 22, 2002, 06:36:09 am
you realise that they do things without our consent anyway, Kellan.
the best we commoner civilians can do is kick up a fuss, which will have no effect on the Powers That Be anyway.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Kellan on August 22, 2002, 06:36:19 am
Quote
Originally posted by icespeed
Neo! You've hit it right on the spot! THat's exactly what the US is trying to do!


Do you doubt that America would dearly love to see Communism out of the way in China? One billion people is a whole lot of market opportunity.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Tiara on August 22, 2002, 06:36:50 am
Quote
Originally posted by icespeed
Neo! You've hit it right on the spot! THat's exactly what the US is trying to do!
It's an American conspiracy against the rest of the world and because it's America, they'll win!

( WARNING: Do not take this post seriously. It's meant to be taken in the spirit of a _joke_.)


Me >  :eek2:

Me >  :wtf:

Me >  :p

Me >  :lol:
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Kellan on August 22, 2002, 06:36:58 am
Quote
Originally posted by icespeed
you realise that they do things without our consent anyway, Kellan.
the best we commoner civilians can do is kick up a fuss, which will have no effect on the Powers That Be anyway.


October Revolution icespeed, October Revolution. ;)
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: icespeed on August 22, 2002, 06:37:44 am
and that was once in more that how many years of history?
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Kellan on August 22, 2002, 06:39:23 am
Quote
Originally posted by icespeed
and that was once in more that how many years of history?


It's a powerful example. But look at the collapse of the USSR, the overthrow of the Mexican, Korean, Vietnamese governments - and most recently, the overthrow of the Argentinian government.

Trust me, when things get bad enough there are plenty of revolutions.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: icespeed on August 22, 2002, 06:43:24 am
No, when things get bad enough, one small group of people convince the people to form a People's Militia and then when everything's over they set themselves up as before in a slightly different form, so that history can repeat itself.
Ever wonder why that phrase exists? Cos it's true. People are stupid. They can never get rid of all the tyrants, which is why they keep rising.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: NeoHunter on August 22, 2002, 06:44:25 am
But war should be avoided at all costs. Right now, the US seems to be enjoying going to war with other countries. I agree that a strike into Afganistan to weed out Al-Queda(sp?) was right. Terrorism should be stopped.

But the China-Taiwan issue should be left alone. The US government should stop the sales of arms to Taiwan. Right now, everybody sees it as the US is trying to start a war here indirectly. China will finally go to war with Taiwan when Taiwan president Chen Shui Bian does something stupid like say that Taiwan is independent. The US, like the world's policeman that they are trying to be, will step in with battleships, carriers, fighters and bombers and join in the bloodshed. Is that what the US really wants? Does the Us government really like killing so much?
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on August 22, 2002, 06:46:03 am
Quote
Originally posted by icespeed
you realise that they do things without our consent anyway, Kellan.
the best we commoner civilians can do is kick up a fuss, which will have no effect on the Powers That Be anyway.


Icespeed: it's because of this fatalism they can. They know we won't do anything, so they just go ahead.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: icespeed on August 22, 2002, 06:47:57 am
Neohunter. Are you saying that all countries should mind their own damn business? Cos they're not going to. It's not in human nature to keep your nose to yourself, and it's not in human nature to be peaceful, either. Humans might have all these nice, fancy ideological ideas, but have any of them ever worked?
I mean, communism was a _good_ idea... until it got put into practice, when human nature stuffed the theory up.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Kellan on August 22, 2002, 06:48:41 am
Quote
Originally posted by icespeed
No, when things get bad enough, one small group of people convince the people to form a People's Militia and then when everything's over they set themselves up as before in a slightly different form, so that history can repeat itself.
Ever wonder why that phrase exists? Cos it's true. People are stupid. They can never get rid of all the tyrants, which is why they keep rising.


History never repeats itself. The phrase "history repeats itself" is used by crass armchair historians with no sense for the details of a historical issue. Sure, if you look at something vaguely enough it appears to be like something else. Saying something like "this is a war with tanks, and so was that one so they are the same" is too vague to be accurate. It's like saying that all vehicles with four wheels are cars, and are all the same because they have the same basic characteristics.

Besides, there are lots of historical events that will never repeat. Look at climate change - that's unprecedented in recorded human history for the reasons it is happening now.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Kellan on August 22, 2002, 06:50:04 am
Quote
Originally posted by Crazy_Ivan80
Icespeed: it's because of this fatalism they can. They know we won't do anything, so they just go ahead.


Yeah. Fight the Power, as some people said.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on August 22, 2002, 06:51:26 am
Quote
Originally posted by Kellan


October Revolution icespeed, October Revolution. ;)


not really a good example.

better examples are:

1776-85: not really a revolution in the typical sence as it was a war of independence mostly, but the changes made and the impact on France were vital!

1789 -> 1792/3 (4 or 5 consecutive revolutions in France)

1815:  not a revolution but the opposite. This set the stage for further revolutions.

1830: new revolutions creating at least 1 'liberal' (for that time) democracy (Belgium)

1848: Definitive end of the Monarchy in France, another series of revolutions in Europe

the list goes on for quite a while still with

1968: massive protests

being the most important revolutionary date for the 20th century in Western Europe.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: icespeed on August 22, 2002, 06:52:17 am
hey Ivan, are you saying that you can stop them from doing whatever they want?

( I apologise in advance. I'm in a mood for a fight today.)

Kellan. History repeats itself. Oh, the exact events may not, but all wars end the same: in a lot of dead bodies. Politics gets one man the head position and another man loses it. Empires rise and fall, and people's lives go on. The exact details aren't important when you're looking at people's lives. Will anyone remember what you did a thousand years from now? Will anyone remember what Bush did? Oh, they might say he was an idiot for doing whatever, but it's not going to be important to them, not vital the way it is to us now.
Look at the big picture.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Tiara on August 22, 2002, 06:53:20 am
Quote
Originally posted by Kellan


Yeah. Fight the Power, as some people said.


(http://emoticons4u.com/violent/sterb135.gif)

(http://emoticons4u.com/violent/sterb196.gif) -New sniper smilie! (Shotgun actually :D)

BTW - Don't take this erious...
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Kellan on August 22, 2002, 06:57:00 am
Quote
Originally posted by icespeed
Kellan. History repeats itself. Oh, the exact events may not, but all wars end the same: in a lot of dead bodies. Politics gets one man the head position and another man loses it. Empires rise and fall, and people's lives go on. The exact details aren't important when you're looking at people's lives. Will anyone remember what you did a thousand years from now? Will anyone remember what Bush did? Oh, they might say he was an idiot for doing whatever, but it's not going to be important to them, not vital the way it is to us now.
Look at the big picture.


Precisely what I'm syaing is not to look at the big picture. Well, not exactly. I don't want to know what colour hair the leaders had or anything, but the reasons for war, and the rise and fall of empires and so on all change subtly.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: icespeed on August 22, 2002, 06:58:30 am
reason for war?
1. I want more land.
2. The people (I) need more land.
3. I don't like the other guy.
4. The other guy's invading me.
5. I'm a crazy fanatic.

If you can think of any more, tell me.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: icespeed on August 22, 2002, 07:11:43 am
it occurred to me this would be the right thread to ask it in, and ive been wondering.

does anyone know how big Iraq is? In square k's, preferably?
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Tiara on August 22, 2002, 07:17:29 am
Quote
Originally posted by icespeed
it occurred to me this would be the right thread to ask it in, and ive been wondering.

does anyone know how big Iraq is? In square k's, preferably?


This is the best I can do :

(http://www.iris.org.il/images/iraq.gif)
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: icespeed on August 22, 2002, 07:19:48 am
...
so does anyone know how big Israel is, then?
:)
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Tiara on August 22, 2002, 07:23:05 am
20,330 sq km
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: icespeed on August 22, 2002, 07:25:24 am
I estimate Iraq to be about ten times Israel, a bit less, I think. So bout 200,000ksquare?

Thanks, anyway. Now, anyone know how long it takes to fly a fighter plane at cruising speed across that?
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Tiara on August 22, 2002, 07:27:13 am
Cruising speed +/- 670 km/h (not fighter plane though)(So that other ppl can calculate it :p Too tireds right now...)

Fighter plane cruising speed = 800 mph / 1,300 km/h...
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: icespeed on August 22, 2002, 07:31:51 am
bout 200hrs.

Hey, if you're tired, go to bed. Sleep. If you have school tomorrow, don't wake up unless you have an exam. In which case, wake up, panic and then go to sleep again. Or, if you have free periods, go to school and sleep. If you have work, go to work and sleep.

Thanks again. Gonna go now, it's 10:30pm over here and i need to go "study". seeya later

love always God bless you
icespeed
(ps. sorry if I accidentally derailed the topic...)
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Sandwich on August 22, 2002, 08:11:31 am
Quote
Originally posted by icespeed
...
so does anyone know how big Israel is, then?
:)


Well, on a clear day, I can see Jordan to the west and would be able to see the ocean to the east if I had line-of-sight.

For more scientific data, how many times do I have to tell you that Atomica (http://www.atomica.com/) rules? :D I just typed in "Israel", and I get, among other things, this:





(http://www.atomica.com/content2/img/factbook/maps/is-150.jpg)Geography

Location: Middle East, bordering the Mediterranean Sea, between Egypt and Lebanon
Geographic coordinates: 31 30 N, 34 45 E
Area:
total: 20,770 sq km
land: 20,330 sq km
water: 440 sq km
Land boundaries:
total: 1,006 km
border countries: Egypt 255 km, Gaza Strip 51 km, Jordan 238 km, Lebanon 79 km, Syria 76 km, West Bank 307 km
Coastline: 273 km
Climate: temperate; hot and dry in southern and eastern desert areas
Terrain: Negev desert in the south; low coastal plain; central mountains; Jordan Rift Valley
Natural resources: copper, phosphates, bromide, potash, clay, sand, sulfur, asphalt, manganese, small amounts of natural gas and crude oil

Bah! While I'm at it I might as well look up Iraq, too:





(http://www.atomica.com/content2/img/factbook/maps/iz-150.jpg)Geography

Location: Middle East, bordering the Persian Gulf, between Iran and Kuwait
Geographic coordinates: 33 00 N, 44 00 E
Area:
total: 437,072 sq km
land: 432,162 sq km
water: 4,910 sq km
Land boundaries:
total: 3,631 km
border countries: Iran 1,458 km, Jordan 181 km, Kuwait 242 km, Saudi Arabia 814 km, Syria 605 km, Turkey 331 km
Coastline: 58 km
Climate: mostly desert; mild to cool winters with dry, hot, cloudless summers; northern mountainous regions along Iranian and Turkish borders experience cold winters with occasionally heavy snows that melt in early spring, sometimes causing extensive flooding in central and southern Iraq
Terrain: mostly broad plains; reedy marshes along Iranian border in south with large flooded areas; mountains along borders with Iran and Turkey
Natural resources: petroleum, natural gas, phosphates, sulfur
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on August 22, 2002, 08:47:50 am
Quote
Originally posted by icespeed
hey Ivan, are you saying that you can stop them from doing whatever they want?


No, i am saying that doing nothing will result in them doing anything they want.

Being interested in politics and keeping up to date, as well as doing ones democratic duty (voting or more) with as many people as possible does have an effect.

Very few individuals have the poser or strenght to influence policy, but when in group you can achieve anything. And politicians know that, and becuase of that they'll listen to you (and your group) because you have the power to vote them out.


Quote
Originally posted by icespeed
Kellan. History repeats itself. Oh, the exact events may not, but all wars end the same: in a lot of dead bodies.


hehe. War does not determine who's right, only who's left.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on August 22, 2002, 08:52:05 am
Quote
Originally posted by Tiara


This is the best I can do :

(http://www.iris.org.il/images/iraq.gif)


hehe, I wonder if anyone will understand this one.... :)


We, Cyrus the Great of Persia, give to the people of Isreal the right to return to their lands and live their lives in peace as subjects of us, the Emperor of Persia..


:)


edit: forgot a word :p
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Sandwich on August 22, 2002, 09:24:04 am
Quote
Originally posted by Crazy_Ivan80


hehe, I wonder if anyone will understand this one.... :)


We, Cyrus the Great of Persia, give to the people of Isreal the right to return to their lands and live their in peace as subjects of us, the Emperor of Persia..


:)



Hehehe - I do. Nice one. :nod:
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Zeronet on August 22, 2002, 10:22:17 am
Quote
Originally posted by Tiara
In this thread I have seen the worst stupidity ever (Not by all of you though :p) Some of you are talking as if Hussein is a push over... Even if we might win the war, have you ever thought about the impact that it would cause?

  • Economical crisis in the middle east (As far as it wasn't already like that) wich will affect the entire world.
  • If a single Muslim is killed every muslim in the western world will surely rebel.
  • If a single Muslim is killed every terrorist faction will become 'very active'.
  • Thousands of soldiers will die and chemical gasses WILL be used by Saddams army.
  • I could go on but you got the point (I hope).


Sure, Saddam is a pain in the backside... But you can't just overrun him. I'm sure there are enough 'fanatical' Muslims in America to perform suicide bombing... Maybe more American/European citizens would die then ppl in the middle east. [/B]


:wtf:

First point may have some relevance
Second and third point: :wtf: Did you know, thousands of taliban were killed, we shot em. Yet the muslim world didnt rebel, because not all Muslins are fanatics! A very large number arent raving lunitics who killed christians if they step on muslim land.
Fourth point: NBC suit, and pills.
Last point: They really arent that powerful, the simple closure of healthrow airport prevented Bin laden from hijacking planes and flying them into buildings in London. Their planning to attack all the time anyway, what we do will change that yes, because we'll prevent them inside of sitting idly by.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: an0n on August 22, 2002, 10:44:30 am
Simple facts:
After WW1 they entered an isolationist period and basically told the world they didn't give a **** and they could go rot under Nazi rule. Now they think that, despite allowing 6 million people to be slaughtered, they can take the morale high-ground and guilt others into and telling them they're evil if they let billions of poor Iraqis get butchered every hour. **** that. If they want to pick fights with other countries they can do it the same as every other world power; only with UN approval.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Tiara on August 22, 2002, 10:45:30 am
Quote
Originally posted by Zeronet


:wtf:

First point may have some relevance

:p

Second and third point: :wtf: Did you know, thousands of taliban were killed, we shot em. Yet the muslim world didnt rebel, because not all Muslins are fanatics! A very large number arent raving lunitics who killed christians if they step on muslim land.

Taliban = Terrorists. Even normal Muslims see that. But Iraq citizens are no terrorists and ppl will be angry and probably riot... (Comparing the Taliban with true Muslims pfffff)

Fourth point: NBC suit, and pills.

Sure... That would cost so much that even the American war budget would be almost depleted. And I don't think those suits would improve combat... :p

Last point: They really arent that powerful, the simple closure of healthrow airport prevented Bin laden from hijacking planes and flying them into buildings in London. Their planning to attack all the time anyway, what we do will change that yes, because we'll prevent them inside of sitting idly by.

DAMN your ignorant...

1). Not powerfull usually means guerilla war and is hard to defend against.
2). You really think that they are only at the healthrow airport? You'd need to virtually close ALL airports.
 
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Top Gun on August 22, 2002, 10:57:20 am
Quote
Originally posted by an0n
SAfter WW1 they entered an isolationist period and basically told the world they didn't give a **** and they could go rot under Nazi rule. Now they think that, despite allowing 6 million people to be slaughtered, they can take the morale high-ground and guilt others into and telling them they're evil if they let billions of poor Iraqis get butchered every hour. **** that. If they want to pick fights with other countries they can do it the same as every other world power; only with UN approval.


Eh? US corporations sold Hitler about half of his steel, half of his pig iron and half of his explosives. They were partially responsible for Nazi Germany's military machiene. The Industrialists who sold them it were all raging anti semites (Ford, GM, IBM and the Rockefeller family). There were Nazi style forced sterilizations, brain washing (in the form of compulsive schooling - www.johntaylorgatto.com ) and other atrocities carried out in the USA at the time of Hitler's rule. Any country could have gone fascist at that time, including the US.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Zeronet on August 22, 2002, 11:12:35 am
The Taliban are mostly dead and the terrorist attacks on September 11th were condemed by many muslims all over the world. Iraqi citizens are governed by a regime that is based on fear and intimidation, his body guards and troops keep the people in line, the No fly Zone exists to prevent Saddamn bombing his own people. What your doing is believing the state controlled TV that says everyone loves Saddamn. The Telegraph may not be totally neutral, but at least it can say whatever it wants and isnt forced to print poems wrote by Tony Blair.

NBC suits expensive? My Local RAF cadet unit has them. They had them in the Gulf war, they arent expensive at all.


Did you catch onto the fact that Heathrow Airport WAS closed down, as was every other airport and NO terrorist attack happened. Did you ever stop to think mabye the Iraqi people dont like living in fear, dont like having an insane leader who actively seeks weapons of mass destruction and who tried to build a supercannon to attack nations around him. The People of Iraq want him gone, Saddamn saying about no surrender etc is just his propaganda. Iraq doesnt need occupying, it wont be, Saddamn will be killed and a democractic government installed and his weapons of mass destruction removed.

Also Saddamn wont let Weapons inspectors back in. His stalling action wont last forever, they said no to them returning. If they have Nothing to hide they'd let them back in, thing is they do and thus they wont accept the order from the UN.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: CP5670 on August 22, 2002, 11:16:39 am
aaaahh....way too much ethical nonsense has developed here (every single anti-war argument boils down to that), and now I cannot reply to it all... :p :D

I guess I will just watch the proceedings here this time since I have fallen too far behind to participate any longer; just stop with all the morality!! :shaking: :D

*goes back to math*
Title: Un revisited...
Post by: Star Dragon on August 22, 2002, 11:35:56 am
First of all I really meant it about the UN Forces..(it doesn't matter what country I'm from, I could be Japanese and still think that at least America does something) UN Peacekeeping forces do not keep the peace, they are a dog and pony show. Where were they in Bosnia? While that failed legacy of The League of Nations (remember UN1?) continues to squabble and do nothing WWII genocide was being carried out along with mass rapes and tourtures, ect, for 4 YEARS!!! I was almost willing to go there and join as an independant fighter. Being Ex-Army I was VERY dissapointed in the way America handled the situation... At long last Millosevic's own people gave him up cause they knew the train was about to stop and their country was gonna get wasted... We did that by declaring that action would be taken wich resolved the situation : saving time, money, effort and set a precident...Finally!

As for the Weapons Inspectors: They wanted to do their job, they were not allowed to. It became a Joke to the Iraqis because they were not allowed to go anywhere without saying WHERE they wanted to look first...Ok after a long delay (gotta get the missle out), you can come in now... See Noting here you Stupid people now get outta here!" (they gone yet? Good get the stuff back here they won't think to look here again! Ha ha we so smart, stupid Evil western Satan Pigs!) Even Richard Butler (leader of the Inspectors) said in an interview that it was a waste of time, they are just playing with the UN, He won't go back no matter what they say to him, and that some sort of action SHOULD be taken! He's the expert folks, but you don't have to be to see what's been going on, and what WILL go on even if Iraq says,"oh come on back! Look Around"... It will be the same old BS... Wait , bait, and switch! I don't care what Bush decides to do just as long as the Iraqi people are considered more than was done for the Afghans... Too many incidents with civillians... Like I said 1 bullet (X)... I'm free this Weekend? BTW (Waves American Flag) this means you are entitled to your opinions and I respect them (though I disagree with some of you)...
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Grey Wolf on August 22, 2002, 12:19:27 pm
:Readies tactical nuclear missiles:
:Readies Vor'cha-class Klingon Cruiser:
:Readies Odin-class Dreadnought from NW:
:Steals Death Star, Readies it:
Hey an0n, I'm taking over the moon :p
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: vyper on August 22, 2002, 01:30:29 pm
*rubs crystal ball(s)*

I see Vyper sitting up late watching a p0r... *ahem*  movie. I see the film being cut suddenly, i see a news flash coming up.... I see the UK & America invading Iraq in the middle of the night (GMT). ;)
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Kellan on August 22, 2002, 04:36:24 pm
Quote
Originally posted by CP5670
the proceedings here this time since I have fallen too far behind to participate any longer; just stop with all the morality!! :shaking: :D


I guess from your purely logical standpoint anything we do, regardless of cost in civilian lives, environmental damage, etc etc is quite alright - simply because we have the ability to do it, and the other guy does not. It's cutthroat, but it makes things a lot simpler.

Still don't agree with it though. :ha: :p
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: CP5670 on August 22, 2002, 06:35:08 pm
Exactly, and besides, it is helping us, and that is all that matters. We want to reduce this to an objective where "agree" and "disagree" don't mean anything. :p (just like one cannot say that he does not agree that 1+1=2 :D)
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Sandwich on August 22, 2002, 07:30:58 pm
Quote
Originally posted by CP5670
(just like one cannot say that he does not agree that 1+1=2 :D)


Let's not go there again; as I recall you were the loudest proponent that you cannot prove that 1+1=2... :rolleyes:

:wink:
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Shrike on August 22, 2002, 07:48:31 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Tiara
His army are fanatics. Like a mob. Nobody can take a mob without being severely hurt.
Yes you can.  Equal numbers of disciplined soldiers will defeat a mob every time.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: CP5670 on August 22, 2002, 09:54:30 pm
Quote

Let's not go there again; as I recall you were the loudest proponent that you cannot prove that 1+1=2... :rolleyes:

:wink:


lol well, that was in a different context. :p :D I guess you could make a new math where 1+1=4 instead and it could still somehow be consistent, but it would not do a very good job of explaining anything in the material world. :D

Anyway, here is a better statement: one cannot say that he agrees that a statement is both true and false simultaneously. :D (in an absolute context, anyway)
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Bobboau on August 22, 2002, 09:58:22 pm
ok, so if it is none of our business what Iraq is doing, why is it any of your business if we want to invade?
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Kellan on August 23, 2002, 04:26:42 am
Quote
Originally posted by Bobboau
ok, so if it is none of our business what Iraq is doing, why is it any of your business if we want to invade?


Who are you talking to? If it's people from other countries, let's see...perhaps because our government has promised to send soldiers too? We could become a terrorist target? It sets a precedent that Bush can overrule any other nation and depose any other leader, and nobody can stop him - regardless of what we think of said leader? Because an attack on Iraq would destablise the oil economy?

Need I go on?
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Bobboau on August 23, 2002, 10:22:43 am
oh ok, so it's ok to set the president of alowing Sadam to violate UN mandates like a porn queen and develop all sorts of massively powerfull weapons he is going to use against his own people and probly you and us.

but it's not ok to set a president that if you violate the terms of a surrender, or fifty billion UN resolutions, nothing will happen

not to mention the fact that he is a bad evile person and his people hate him and it's million of people liveing in misery and we have a moral obligation to help them.
this is secondary in the issue however, becase none of you seem to care, and yes we do
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Blue Lion on August 23, 2002, 10:25:58 am
Quote
Originally posted by Kellan


It sets a precedent that Bush can overrule any other nation and depose any other leader, and nobody can stop him - regardless of what we think of said leader?


It's called war, that's hardly setting precedent
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Snakeseyes on August 23, 2002, 11:19:36 am
Quote
Originally posted by Bobboau
...becase none of you seem to care, and yes we do



When did the americans started to care about the others???

Did you cared about the victims of the Turkish governement, in Cyprus and Kurdistan??? No, so don't start using that lame excuse. And that also shows how much misleaded the american people is. You leave in a country that is control through the media, in ways that would make even Gebels(sp?) admire them.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Blue Lion on August 23, 2002, 11:23:27 am
Quote
Originally posted by Snakeseyes



When did the americans started to care about the others???

Did you cared about the victims of the Turkish governement, in Cyprus and Kurdistan??? No, so don't start using that lame excuse. And that also shows how much misleaded the american people is. You leave in a country that is control through the media, in ways that would make even Gebels(sp?) admire them.



Hmmm, I'll say this once. We're doing it because it's in our best interests, him being there is causing us problems. You don't like it? Do something about it
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: RandomTiger on August 23, 2002, 11:51:39 am
Quote
Originally posted by Blue Lion

Hmmm, I'll say this once. We're doing it because it's in our best interests, him being there is causing us problems. You don't like it? Do something about it


Not too long ago it was in America's interest to get Russia out of Afganistan. Bin Laden and extremists like him were apparently actually trained by you guys more so than the less extreme because they were 'better fighters'.

I truely hope that America's actions in the coming months do not come back to haunt us all.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Snakeseyes on August 23, 2002, 12:56:53 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Blue Lion


Hmmm, I'll say this once. We're doing it because it's in our best interests, him being there is causing us problems. You don't like it? Do something about it


That's exactly my point BL, thanks. Because some people have delusions and believe that the american government acts for the sake of the people of Iraq, or Serbia, or Albania, etc etc etc.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: aldo_14 on August 23, 2002, 01:04:48 pm
(I haven't read the prev. pages...but -)

The worry is that an attack on Iraq without clear justification (i.e. proof of aggressive intent, illegal weapons programmes or terrorist sponsorship, not accusations - and even that may not be considered enough) will lead to a cold war between the western (christian) countries and the Muslim world.... at the moment Iraq is simply not a threat to the US or Europe, and there's no hard proof given that it has any offensive capability or intent to strike at even Israel (the only real target for Hussein).

Even the dossier that Tony Blair was supposed to have justifying an attack on Iraq, has never been produced to parliament.   any attack on Iraq - without hard, definitive proof - will be seen as unprovoked, and even as a 'Crusade' against the Muslim world.  And any subsequent government will probably be seen as 'puppets' of the Western world.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Bobboau on August 23, 2002, 01:22:00 pm
Anytime we hear about some injustice we do care, but because the residence of a certan old world continent would whine about it being none of our business we do nothing.
We let Afghanistan go to hell for the last five-ten years because setting up a real government wasn't our business, even though our involvement in the region demanded we clean it up,  
Oh no I'm sure the factions will come together, we don't need to help,
Yes we ****ed that one up, why because we didn't want people *****ing at us for imperialising,
what would have happened if we had stayed in the reagon, if we set up a democratic government, and tried to get the reagon settled,
We would have been accused of doing what the USSR had just done, or that we were only there to get and oil pipeline, or spreading our evil-chirstian-jew-capitalistic evilness
So instead of doing what we are doing now
Setting up a halfway decent government
We let them go to hell,
Even then we did nothing why because
Who are we to impose our sense of morality on these people?
Well who the **** were the taliban, well they were some of the people we armed to get rid of the USSR, but they were from the reagon so somehow they were allowed to subjugate the country without condemnation,
So rather than trying to get rid of them we said OK everyone else says not to get rid of them so I Gus we should try to deal with them, yes that's what the Europeans want and they all sound so smart, yes lets give it a try...
Eventually we had to do it our way, and wow look at that, it worked, in a month!!!!

Same thing in Yugoslavia, people getting killed, we see this, are outraged want to do something, Europe says no (well they do have more of a right here seeing as this was in Europe, but), impose sanctions, apply political pressure, just what ever you do don't actually go in and physically stop it. Well after a few years situation goes from worse to crimes against humanity, and eventually we somehow convince you all, yes we must go in and do something,
wam! bam! Two months later, situation resolved
There may still be problems there but I haven't heard anything, it's certainly better than it was before the strikes

I was too young to remember any of the other major military strike againced people we didn't like as are most likely you

The reason we didn't like communism is because they sent tanks after people in there own country asking for change, they shot people trying to leave, and because they had nukes pointing at us (we probably have that last one in common with them)
The idea of communism we didn't like because from what we saw of it's implementation it
A) Didn't work
B) Removed all rights from its citizens

So is it a good idea to let Sadam stay there and continue his rain, building weapons he will use on people, we have done it you're way for the last ten years, is it anywhere near resolving this situation, or has it just allowed him to rebuild his stash,
Is it our business if he kills hundreds, thousands, millions
Was it our business when Germany was laying waist to Europe?
Why must we always wait until these things get to such an uncontrollable situation
It is our business because we are at war with terrorism
Quote
terrorism- the act of using a non-national militant force to intentionally kill civilians for the propose of gaining political leverage through fear

And Sadam does support it,
He doesn't need to support Al Qeda, just giving cash to suicide bombers' families is enough, this is also why we are pissed at Saudi Arabia whom we are slowly realizing are not our friends,

We need to cut oil consumption, we need to get fuel cell cars, and nuclear powerplants, we need to do it now, not just because of the Arab oil thing but also for the environment. Why the hell don't we have this stuff!! (I know, I know, evil corporations...)

I will write a letter to my congressperson

...Iraq

We need to do to Iraq what we are doing to Afghanistan
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: phreak on August 23, 2002, 01:45:41 pm
i think he snapped :nervous:
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Bobboau on August 23, 2002, 01:52:10 pm
AHHHGGGHH
you get nuke now!!!
*nukes padded cell were PhReAk is located*
gaahhhaahaha
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: GenesisToBe on August 23, 2002, 01:53:26 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Bobboau
AHHHGGGHH
you get nuke now!!!
*nukes padded cell were PhReAk is located*
gaahhhaahaha


This board is scary...

:shaking:
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: an0n on August 23, 2002, 01:53:47 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Bobboau
And Sadam does support it,
He doesn't need to support Al Qeda, just giving cash to suicide bombers' families is enough

Yeah, no-one should be allowed to pay compensation to the families of their armed forces.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Bobboau on August 23, 2002, 02:01:33 pm
oh, so Aloxa mayters brigade is the armed forces of Iraq, well that seems like it would make a good reason to invade Iraq, seeing as Isrial is our ally
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: an0n on August 23, 2002, 02:02:40 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Bobboau
oh, so Aloxa mayters brigade is the armed forces of Iraq, well that seems like it would make a good reason to invade Iraq, seeing as Isrial is our ally
Tis better to attack a country who kills foreigners than one that kills it's own.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Kellan on August 23, 2002, 03:54:44 pm
For ****'s sake, I think I'm going to snap if you keep going on like this, Bobb. (Note: I will probably swear a lot more in this post. If you are sensitive and/or stupid, please look away now).

Quote
Originally posted by Bobboau
Anytime we hear about some injustice we do care, but because the residence of a certan old world continent would whine about it being none of our business we do nothing.


Ah, the "blame Europe" ploy. In fact, blame anyone as long as it's not America. Good, glorious America, that only does good things in the interests of other people and at its own expense, expecting nothing in return. I'm not saying that Europe is sanguine - we're likely just as complicit (the Germans sold Saddam the gas that he used on Kurdish villagers, for example). However, the US has blood on its hands too, and you can't get away from that by making things up.

Look, I have no problem about the US being the world's policeman, so to speak, if it had to abide by the same rules that genuine police do - ie. habeas corpus, human rights and so on. I realise fully that if the West did not intervene anywhere for any reason, things would be worse. However, don't pretend that you care as a nation about every conflict you never stopped. The US stands by idly and does nothing about Chechnya, and about Kashmir, and so on, despite having the power to do so - and the precedent, given the intervention already in "other people's wars" in Israel, the Phillipines, etc. And there are a litany of past conflicts where nothing was done - or even worse, when outright lies were told by the US leadership - like in Hungary, or the Gulf War. So don't say you care about the people. Like any nation, it's all about what you can get out of a 'regime change' or whatever.

Quote
We let Afghanistan go to hell for the last five-ten years because setting up a real government wasn't our business, even though our involvement in the region demanded we clean it up...So instead of doing what we are doing now
Setting up a halfway decent government...[/b]
Quote


Actually, US aid to Afghanistan in military terms is now virtually non-existent since the war is over. As for financial aid, I do believe that the administration just pulled the plug. It's just European peacekeepers there now...y'know, the ones who never get involved in any conflict. Oh, except that one. And Bosnia and Kosovo. Oh, and Iraq. Ah, and remember those pesky little World Wars? :p

Quote
Well who the **** were the taliban, well they were some of the people we armed to get rid of the USSR, but they were from the reagon so somehow they were allowed to subjugate the country without condemnation[/b]


So now you say that you didn't condemn them? So you didn't care about the people, did you? Is that right?

Quote
Same thing in Yugoslavia, people getting killed, we see this, are outraged want to do something, Europe says no (well they do have more of a right here seeing as this was in Europe, but), impose sanctions, apply political pressure, just what ever you do don't actually go in and physically stop it. Well after a few years situation goes from worse to crimes against humanity, and eventually we somehow convince you all, yes we must go in and do something, wam! bam! Two months later, situation resolved
[/b]


No, wait. IIRC, the US was never particularly outraged and we had to convince you to help us pass the UN resolution and bomb Yugoslavia. As for imposing sanctions prior to invasion - I think that is called using the minimum necessary force first - to avoid casualties on both sides if at all possible. Otherwise we may get straight onto the nukes and save all the bother of trying to save lives.

Quote
The reason we didn't like communism is because they sent tanks after people in there own country asking for change, they shot people trying to leave, and because they had nukes pointing at us (we probably have that last one in common with them)[/b]


Oh wait, and what the **** were those National Guardsmen sent to break up the peaceful protests against the Vietnam War? And did those unfortunate students just die of surprise, or something? :rolleyes:

Quote
Was it our business when Germany was laying waist to Europe?[/b]


Actually, the Berlin-Tokyo-Rome Axis Alliance forced you into war with Germany through the attack on Pearl Harbor. You couldn't exactly have avoided it.

Quote
We need to cut oil consumption, we need to get fuel cell cars, and nuclear powerplants, we need to do it now, not just because of the Arab oil thing but also for the environment. Why the hell don't we have this stuff!! (I know, I know, evil corporations...)[/b]


1. Big Oil has influence in Washington.
2. It would be costly.
3. People are scared of nuclear reactors and whine like *****es about wind farms because they 'look ugly'. Well, so does burning black bits of rock. ;)

So you see, we do have one thing in common. :D
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: aldo_14 on August 23, 2002, 04:02:32 pm
You know, the US was perfectly willing to stand by whilst Iraq used mustard gas against Iran's troops during their war......
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Zeronet on August 23, 2002, 04:10:44 pm
You know, The No Fly Zone stops Iraq bombing its own people, set up by us and the US.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: aldo_14 on August 23, 2002, 04:16:31 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Zeronet
You know, The No Fly Zone stops Iraq bombing its own people, set up by us and the US.


You know, the same Kurds that the no-fly zone was set up to protect were also promised weapons and support in ousting Saddam - weapons and support that was denied.  The no-fly zone seems to be more functional in ensuring Iraq has minimal air defence.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Kellan on August 23, 2002, 04:25:13 pm
Quote
Originally posted by aldo_14
You know, the US was perfectly willing to stand by whilst Iraq used mustard gas against Iran's troops during their war......


Precisely.

And I presume you're referring to the little incident in the Gulf War when Bush promised the Iraqi opposition support in ousting Saddam, only to not deliver weapons, intelligence or support. Thus, they were all massacred.

Very much the same thing happened in the 1957 Hungarian Uprising. America, like every other nation, has lied to and betrayed people in the past.

And Zeronet - I very much doubt that Saddam could perpetrate a mass bombing campaign against his people, no-fly zone or not. There comes a point when you're killing so many of your own people that they don't care about being terrified anymore - they push you out. And no force on Earth, I suspect, can stop a whole civilian population from overthrowing its government.

Besides, he needs the masses to build things he likes. Such as his supposed-chemical weapons. :p
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: aldo_14 on August 23, 2002, 04:39:30 pm
Y' know, I just object to this whole 'saving the world' premise given for war... it's bollocks.  It's merely removing one less tenable dictator for, in all likelyhood, another.  Or even just killing a few hundred thousand 'furriners' to satisfy the blood lust of a population desperate for revenge.

Think of this - when was the last concrete development on the location of the most wanted Al-Queda terrorists, especially Bin Laden?  Because everyone is asking about Iraq, they've ignored the suppossed 'reason' (terrorism) for attacks.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Kellan on August 23, 2002, 04:40:52 pm
Quote
Originally posted by aldo_14
Think of this - when was the last concrete development on the location of the most wanted Al-Queda terrorists, especially Bin Laden?  Because everyone is asking about Iraq, they've ignored the suppossed 'reason' (terrorism) for attacks.


Well, that's the point, isn't it? Just like removing the Taliban was a front for the fact that the US had no idea where Bin Laden was but had to be seen to be doing something.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: CP5670 on August 23, 2002, 05:50:01 pm
Quote
For ****'s sake, I think I'm going to snap if you keep going on like this, Bobb. (Note: I will probably swear a lot more in this post. If you are sensitive and/or stupid, please look away now.


I think I'm going to go insane if I see you (among others) spewing out any more ethical nonsense... :p :D

I'll just reply to a few of these:

Quote
Look, I have no problem about the US being the world's policeman, so to speak, if it had to abide by the same rules that genuine police do - ie. habeas corpus, human rights and so on.


The US is indeed the big bad evil monster of the world, but frankly, so what? And human rights are just another piece of moral crap; in a time of conflict, nobody is foolish enough to actually go by that. (they only pretend to be all moralistic and "good" when the nation is prospering)

Quote
Y' know, I just object to this whole 'saving the world' premise given for war... it's bollocks. It's merely removing one less tenable dictator for, in all likelyhood, another. Or even just killing a few hundred thousand 'furriners' to satisfy the blood lust of a population desperate for revenge.


That is just silly (but very effective) propaganda, and it is very easy to see through. Still, there exist other, unrelated reasons to go after Iraq. Also, like I said before, it is okay if a Stalin-like guy gets put in Hussein's place if he is friendly towards the US.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: vyper on August 23, 2002, 06:32:24 pm
Quote
Originally posted by vyper



"If one good man does not act in the face of wrong, if one liberty is taken, if one cheek turned... then the first link of a chain is forged that binds us all"


I'm gonna keep saying this till someone understands.

Hmm, quoting myself? Oh dear this is getting bad.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Sandwich on August 23, 2002, 07:37:48 pm
Gosh, if America "taking care of" Saddam/Iraq is causing such a huge ruckus, they should just stand aside and let us (Israel) deal with him. ;7
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Blue Lion on August 23, 2002, 07:39:52 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Sandwich
Gosh, if America "taking care of" Saddam/Iraq is causing such a huge ruckus, they should just stand aside and let us (Israel) deal with him. ;7



no no no, we get to use our toys too
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: an0n on August 23, 2002, 07:44:26 pm
I hereby declare my point of view supreme and infinitely right. Any further opposition shall face my full troll wrath with no holds barred. Be warned.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Zeronet on August 23, 2002, 07:57:34 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Kellan


Precisely.

And I presume you're referring to the little incident in the Gulf War when Bush promised the Iraqi opposition support in ousting Saddam, only to not deliver weapons, intelligence or support. Thus, they were all massacred.

Very much the same thing happened in the 1957 Hungarian Uprising. America, like every other nation, has lied to and betrayed people in the past.

And Zeronet - I very much doubt that Saddam could perpetrate a mass bombing campaign against his people, no-fly zone or not. There comes a point when you're killing so many of your own people that they don't care about being terrified anymore - they push you out. And no force on Earth, I suspect, can stop a whole civilian population from overthrowing its government.

Besides, he needs the masses to build things he likes. Such as his supposed-chemical weapons. :p


I suspect very much if there wasnt a no fly zone, there wouldnt be kurds. Bush Senior was a politically movitivated fool, he caused this whole damn mess by not finishing the fight, because of this image.
(http://www.millersgulfwar.org/jm17.jpg)

The result of our last large engagement with Iraqi forces. The media was showing this and he thought it'd hurt his re-election chances if more images like this appeared.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: an0n on August 23, 2002, 08:08:46 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Zeronet
I suspect very much if there wasnt a no fly zone, there wouldnt be kurds.

~-=™! And you're basing this on what? Your indepth understanding of the inner working of the Iraqi and Saddam mindset? !™=-~

Bush Senior was a politically movitivated fool, he caused this whole damn mess by not finishing the fight, because of this image.
http://www.millersgulfwar.org/jm17.jpg

~-=™! No, he caused all this **** by starting the fighting. It seems to be just fine for America to invade Afghanistan without good reason but as soon as Iraq try it, it suddenly becomes wrong and evil. So some terrorists with minor ties to the Taliban attack America, you can be damn sure if ETA attacked America there'd be a ****ing lot less fighting then. America is picking on Afghanistan because they're assured of a complete slaughter and get a nice chance to show how big and hard they are, or at least they thought they were. The American armed forces leadership are a bunch of pussies, they never engage anyone unless they think they'll completely dominate them. And even then, fighting piss-poor countries with battered heirarchies and tired troops, they still never win. The only marginally successful operation the American armed forces have participated in in the last 50 years has been Kosovo and even then they were only a tiny part of the operation !™=-~
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Mr Carrot on August 23, 2002, 10:36:23 pm
Id like to make some statements about the millitary aspects of any campaign.

According to the latest Janes research Iraqs army once the 3rd largest in the world lies in ruins, the embargo was effective in preventing a resupply of heavy amour and AFV. Those outdated t-70s are still outdated t-79s there are just less of them.

The Iraqi millitary unlike the Taliban arnt fanatics, this includes the Republican Guard they are actually rather crap. After Saddam got rid of the UK/USA trained generals in his post Iranian war purges they dont have any qualified leadership either. The ease at which the well equipped Iraqi army crumbled in the Gulf War to forces a 1/10 of its size in places shows just how appaling it was. Again the much vaunted guard fell just as quickly.

Admitedly a ground campaign in Iraq would be harder faught, but the cost would be LESS then the original war simply because the Iraqis have nothing with which to harm the attacking forces.

Id like to point out that at this time France has the worlds third most effective armed forces after the USA and the UK, and that the German Bundeswher could take Iraq if they wanted to, such is that state of the Iraqi millitary. However, no one has thought of an important factor, Iraq sure as hell couldnt hit the USA with a NBC attack but he MIGHT be able to hit a European country. The threat is much larger and closer so think about that next time before you tear into the Germans.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Mr Carrot on August 23, 2002, 10:45:45 pm
Oh id like to point out from my luncheon with Mr Bush (snr) and his autobiogtaphy, it wasnt his idea to stop the campaign but the CIA.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: NeoHunter on August 24, 2002, 12:54:01 am
Quote
Originally posted by icespeed
Neohunter. Are you saying that all countries should mind their own damn business? Cos they're not going to. It's not in human nature to keep your nose to yourself, and it's not in human nature to be peaceful, either. Humans might have all these nice, fancy ideological ideas, but have any of them ever worked?
I mean, communism was a _good_ idea... until it got put into practice, when human nature stuffed the theory up.


What I mean is that the US should poke into other countries affairs less. They are like the world's biggest busybody now. Report on this country's human rights, saying that country should do this. For god's sake! Just shut up!!!

China is doing well now. Its still communist. So what? As long as its doing okay, why shold the US see a need to write reports on its human rights issues, tell it not to do this and that? Its like I don't lie the way you dress and I tell you to wear dresses instead. You like that?! Huh?!

Helping countries with tensions come to a resolution peacefully is good. In fact, I think others should do tht too. But when you overstep the line and start poking your nose into the businesses of others, including dometic ones, you become a nuisanse.

And before the US goes on some "holy war against terrorism" on Iraq, they better have some real CONCRETE evidence. Don't go into Iraq with the simple cock reason like "I believe he funded Al-Queada" ****. Its not enough.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: CODEDOG ND on August 24, 2002, 01:04:12 am
Hmmm....now where do I start my cynical remarks eh? ;7



Why doesn't the UN do anything about it and why does the US not care about the UN's position?

Because the UN is weak and a really screwed up piece of junk.  The US is one of the permanent members of the UN and the UN has really no authority over ANY of the permanent members.

America is doing this just for their own interest!

Umm...Do I really need to bust out the world history book people!
Britian, France, United States, Spain, Portugal, Soviet Union, Germany, Italy, etc etc etc.  Have all invaded others for personal interest, so who really has the right to tell another country not to invade?  The answer is nobody.

America is a bunch of hypocrits that just want the oil.

Your point being..................................what?  That you won't benefit from it?  Of course, it's all about that oil, and I want it.


The muslims will rebel!

Stereotyping....tsk tsk tsk.  

Iraq will inflict heavy casualities on any force that invades!

From what army?  And with what?  A couple of Yugo SKS's and some AK's.  US special forces now have the ability to shoot around a building accurately without showing the main body.  Come on people, have faith in militaries you bunch of damn leftist liberals!

Codedog, your an Neo-Facist Imperialist you asshole!!!

Yes....if you ask yourself that question you are correct!

The war would be unjust!


Moral issue once again.  Unjust can't be defined and is irrelevant.

America doesn't give much in forgien aid.

Bah!  If it was up to me I wouldn't give them a ****in thing.  We have enough homeless people.

Ok...Codedog what is your opinion then?

Invade of course, but I think the US should start in Australia and work your way up.  :)

Codedog, your **** is the most stupidest most unheard of crap you evil white supremist and conservative!  Just shut the hell up!


Hey...it's a free internet.  :)
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Bobboau on August 24, 2002, 01:04:52 am
Sadam proudly admits paying suicide bombers' famelies,
something like $20,000

that alone is suporting terrorism

if we have further suspisions they are irrelivent to this fact
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: NeoHunter on August 24, 2002, 01:11:33 am
Quote
Originally posted by Bobboau
Sadam proudly admits paying suicide bombers' famelies,
something like $20,000

that alone is suporting terrorism

if we have further suspisions they are irrelivent to this fact


Okay then. I gave Osama bin Laden $20,000 also. Now what? You want to tell the US army to descend on me like a pack of wolves?

I could also say that I own the MacDonald's chain of resturants if I want to.

All these are verbal. Where is the hard evidence?
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Blue Lion on August 24, 2002, 01:31:39 am
Quote
Originally posted by NeoHunter

Okay then. I gave Osama bin Laden $20,000 also. Now what? You want to tell the US army to descend on me like a pack of wolves?


Let's ask ourselves this, why did he say that? Because he wants us to attack him so he can look like the victim. Why don't we do what he wants, and accidently kill him in the process?
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Lonestar on August 24, 2002, 01:32:43 am
Quote
Originally posted by CODEDOG ND
Hmmm....now where do I start my cynical remarks eh? ;7



Why doesn't the UN do anything about it and why does the US not care about the UN's position?

Because the UN is weak and a really screwed up piece of junk.  The US is one of the permanent members of the UN and the UN has really no authority over ANY of the permanent members.

America is doing this just for their own interest!

Umm...Do I really need to bust out the world history book people!
Britian, France, United States, Spain, Portugal, Soviet Union, Germany, Italy, etc etc etc.  Have all invaded others for personal interest, so who really has the right to tell another country not to invade?  The answer is nobody.

America is a bunch of hypocrits that just want the oil.

Your point being..................................what?  That you won't benefit from it?  Of course, it's all about that oil, and I want it.


The muslims will rebel!

Stereotyping....tsk tsk tsk.  

Iraq will inflict heavy casualities on any force that invades!

From what army?  And with what?  A couple of Yugo SKS's and some AK's.  US special forces now have the ability to shoot around a building accurately without showing the main body.  Come on people, have faith in militaries you bunch of damn leftist liberals!

Codedog, your an Neo-Facist Imperialist you asshole!!!

Yes....if you ask yourself that question you are correct!

The war would be unjust!


Moral issue once again.  Unjust can't be defined and is irrelevant.

America doesn't give much in forgien aid.

Bah!  If it was up to me I wouldn't give them a ****in thing.  We have enough homeless people.

Ok...Codedog what is your opinion then?

Invade of course, but I think the US should start in Australia and work your way up.  :)

Codedog, your **** is the most stupidest most unheard of crap you evil white supremist and conservative!  Just shut the hell up!


Hey...it's a free internet.  :)


And these are all the reasons known as to why Codedog isnt a leader of any country and will never be.

UN a peice of crap? Go read you schmuck before you dig a hole so deep you'll change your name.

You got to understand most wars start, continue and end with the political front. No support means no fight or eventual end, support means a fight. Face facts here, not enough Europeans support this war on Saddam, and just over half of the US population support it. Its a PR nightmare to fight right now, when so many "political" issues can be put forth.

Next time I hear someone talk of the UN with such disdain they should be shot by me in Medal Of Honor: Allied Assault.

Codedog, your opinion is welcome, just really uninformed and also uneducated.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Bobboau on August 24, 2002, 01:44:49 am
the UN sucks ;)
Title: UN Decendants...
Post by: Star Dragon on August 24, 2002, 02:58:40 am
I forgot what movie that was in.. A character say something like,"and after the Un there was X,Y,Z all of which failed to achieve peace on Earth". LOL

So yes  I would say the CURRENT incarnation of the "world political body" blows goats (Baaaaah).

BTW I believe there should be a mix of TRUE COMMUNISM and DEMOCRACY. Each on their own is flawed and in the end (it doesn't even matter) ops I like that song!.. Anyway, who else here is in the military or ex-military (I was in Army Intelligence, that's why I got out after 3 years! Did you ever know that the emblem on the collar of the Colonial Warriors in BSG is the Army Intelligence Symbol? When I got mine I thought that was the coolest!) :cool:

BTW we have to attack soon before the asteroid turns Baghbad into a parkinglot!!! :lol:
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: CP5670 on August 24, 2002, 03:08:26 am
Codedog: very good points there. :nod:

Also, the thing about the UN is that it may keep saying things but it does not have any real power to actually influence any national government.

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BTW I believe there should be a mix of TRUE COMMUNISM and DEMOCRACY.


I want full communism with a computerized dictator running things. :D

Quote
Next time I hear someone talk of the UN with such disdain they should be shot by me in Medal Of Honor: Allied Assault.


I need to play with you guys in that sometime once I get my primary computer working again. ;)
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Mr Carrot on August 24, 2002, 08:35:14 am
The UN is great for providing a unified front against things such as poverty but agreed it is wank for doing important things..... like war.

The UN hasnt had any balls since Korea.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: an0n on August 24, 2002, 08:42:21 am
The idea of the League Of Nations and the UN was that there's strength in numbers and that people could only do something if it was permissable by the human race as a whole. But the idea has two flaws:

1) Governments (ideally) represent the population. UN ambassadors represent the government and somewhere along the way, the needs, wants and desires of the population are lost.
2) The permenant members of the security council (America, Britain, France, China, Russia and German methinks) has pretty much unquestionable power without the UN. If any of these countries wants someone dead then they're dead, regardless of how much support they have from the rest of the world. These nations control the bulk of the worlds force and could quite easily crush an alliance of any number of hostile nations. As such, they don't need to listen to anyone.

And through all this, time is wasted debating issues and in that time the situation gets worse and ultimately, nothing major is ever agreed upon.

The only real benefit of the UN is two fold:
1) It rings in the prophecies the Bible makes about the end of the world.
2) It stops the permenant members from nuking each other as the formality of the UN gives them a way to back down from nuclear war and still save face.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Carl on August 24, 2002, 08:44:27 am
...and amerca gets stuck with the bill.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Mr Carrot on August 24, 2002, 09:06:29 am
America pays the most but not proportionally.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Tiara on August 24, 2002, 09:11:29 am
Quote
Originally posted by Mr Carrot
America pays the most but not proportionally.


*waves Dutch flag again*
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: aldo_14 on August 24, 2002, 09:14:11 am
Quote
Originally posted by Carl
...and amerca gets stuck with the bill.


I don't think America can complain.... it got immunity for all it's peacekeepers from war crimes prosecution for the next 5 years or so - in other words, carte blanche.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: phreak on August 24, 2002, 11:06:23 am
Quote
Originally posted by Mr Carrot
The UN hasnt had any balls since Korea.


thats because it was 98% US, and many of the soldiers had battle experience in Europe or Pacific.  plus MacArthur :D
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Zeronet on August 24, 2002, 11:11:18 am
Which is more important, the thought(ie 4% of GNP) or the most money(ie what America gives)...its an interesting question.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Tiara on August 24, 2002, 11:18:39 am
Quote
Originally posted by Zeronet
Which is more important, the thought(ie 4% of GNP) or the most money(ie what America gives)...its an interesting question.


You really are ignorant, aren't you? :blah:

I didn't mean that I don't appreciate the money that the US gives but if the states would give 4% (Like some other countries) many problems around the globe could be solved.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Blue Lion on August 24, 2002, 11:21:19 am
Quote
Originally posted by aldo_14


I don't think America can complain.... it got immunity for all it's peacekeepers from war crimes prosecution for the next 5 years or so - in other words, carte blanche.


Cause you know we're out there killing babies and such. That's the only reason we're going over there, to commit war crimes. So thank god we can't be prosecuted, this is the chance we've been waiting for! :rolleyes:
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Blue Lion on August 24, 2002, 11:27:34 am
Quote
Originally posted by Tiara


You really are ignorant, aren't you? :blah:

I didn't mean that I don't appreciate the money that the US gives but if the states would give 4% (Like some other countries) many problems around the globe could be solved.


and 4% of our GNP could solve a lot of our problems. I'd rather the money go here instead.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: aldo_14 on August 24, 2002, 04:00:34 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Blue Lion


Cause you know we're out there killing babies and such. That's the only reason we're going over there, to commit war crimes. So thank god we can't be prosecuted, this is the chance we've been waiting for! :rolleyes:


I'm sure certain US soldiers would be very happy to feel free to be allowed  to, for example, torture Afghan POWs. No-one should have that freedom, regardless of good intentions or not.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on August 24, 2002, 04:09:37 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Blue Lion


and 4% of our GNP could solve a lot of our problems. I'd rather the money go here instead.


if the other 96% doesn't solve your problems that 4% extra won't make a difference :p
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: an0n on August 24, 2002, 04:13:41 pm
Quote
Originally posted by aldo_14
I'm sure certain US soldiers would be very happy to feel free to be allowed  to, for example, torture Afghan POWs. No-one should have that freedom, regardless of good intentions or not.

Yeah, and rape the more attractive of the population.

But then again, that kinda **** happens wether they've got immunity or not.

But I do think POW's (if they're at war for a decent reason), who've joined their armed forces voluntarily should be allowed to be tortured and killed.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Kellan on August 24, 2002, 04:13:43 pm
Quote
Originally posted by aldo_14
I'm sure certain US soldiers would be very happy to feel free to be allowed  to, for example, torture Afghan POWs. No-one should have that freedom, regardless of good intentions or not.


If anything goes, then it usually will. :blah:
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: GenesisToBe on August 24, 2002, 04:45:05 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Kellan


If anything goes, then it usually will. :blah:


Sad... But true... :blah:
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Kellan on August 24, 2002, 04:52:48 pm
Quote
Originally posted by GenesisToBe
Sad... But true... :blah:


Trusims usually are true.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Mr Carrot on August 24, 2002, 07:20:26 pm
Those were the UN forces, the UN council itself voted unanmously to proceede with milliatry action.... Russia was boycotting at the time because of the refusal to recognise Mao Tse Tung's Peoples Revolutionary Party as the real government of China over the Tiwanese exiles.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: deep_eyes on August 24, 2002, 08:57:10 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Bobboau
unless you bomb them from 20,000 feet

and it is our busnes, he would like nothing better than to send a nuke into NY harbor, and as long as he sits there he is a constant looming threat,
are you going to wait untill after someone nukes Paris before you get concerned about him?


<<<  -    Looks @ Bobboau when he says "nukes NY harbor"... and remembers "sum of all fears".....:nervous:

this real life, if he gonna nuke anything, it be his own damn self to martyr himself. if he's smart politically.

and or either this, he;s just a guy with power to his head, when he's under pressure he tries to move a lil under it all, and we keep missing his damn head with the meat cleaver.

beyond that propaganda or not, i dun care, they (the goverment) should say oops we dropped a cup on the perverbial "BUTTON" and nuke that part of the world of the planet. instant cleansing of terror in that region...
:devil:
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: CP5670 on August 24, 2002, 08:59:54 pm
Quote
If anything goes, then it usually will.


Including, say, Vasudans invading the planet and taking all the headz? :D

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I'm sure certain US soldiers would be very happy to feel free to be allowed to, for example, torture Afghan POWs. No-one should have that freedom, regardless of good intentions or not.


I say they "should" have the freedom to do whatever they please if they have the material capability. Who is to say who is right or not? :D

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beyond that propaganda or not, i dun care, they (the goverment) should say oops we dropped a cup on the perverbial "BUTTON" and nuke that part of the world of the planet. instant cleansing of terror in that region...


;7
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: icespeed on August 24, 2002, 10:38:09 pm
Quote
Originally posted by CP5670



I say they "should" have the freedom to do whatever they please if they have the material capability. Who is to say who is right or not? :D
;7


No one should blame someone else cos everyone is wrong. But that doesn't mean you can't try to behave well ourselves. If the whole world worked your way, CP, we'd already be all dead from nuclear war.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: CP5670 on August 24, 2002, 11:33:36 pm
Well, how come we are not dead yet? Because, frankly, that is the way the world works, and furthermore, that is the only way it can work if the independent nation system of today is to exist. Actually, in any war what would happen is that some would die and the rest would still be around, and the ones that survive would carry the civilization forward themselves.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: vyper on August 25, 2002, 05:18:05 am
And yet again this debate on military action has deteriorated into a bloody debate on ethics of combat.  :sigh:

No man has the right to torture another. Every human being has certain undeniable rights, no matter how "bad" that person is. If we treat them any less humanely then we ourselves become as "bad" as them. This is what we fight for currently, and this is what we (the allies of the UK,USA) have always fought for. We cannot abandon our principles when they become inconvenient.

The best way to think about this is from a personal perspective:
"Age doesn't make you a man." Think about it.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Snakeseyes on August 25, 2002, 06:09:12 am
Quote
Originally posted by CP5670
...Because, frankly, that is the way the world works, and furthermore, that is the only way it can work if the independent nation system of today is to exist...


Actualy, CP5670, this is the only way we 've ever tried. In Antiquity, Medieval age, in the present. But as the years pass, we, humans, want to think that our race , the human race, advances in more ways than that of technology. But seeing the world and what is happening, I believe that we never left the dark ages. We are "recycle" the same mistakes. And frankly, I don't believe that we, the humans, will destroy ourselves. And however much harsh is what I 'm gonna say, we deserve it and it will be unjust if we ever survive.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: CP5670 on August 25, 2002, 08:42:23 am
Quote
Actualy, CP5670, this is the only way we 've ever tried. In Antiquity, Medieval age, in the present. But as the years pass, we, humans, want to think that our race , the human race, advances in more ways than that of technology. But seeing the world and what is happening, I believe that we never left the dark ages. We are "recycle" the same mistakes. And frankly, I don't believe that we, the humans, will destroy ourselves. And however much harsh is what I 'm gonna say, we deserve it and it will be unjust if we ever survive.


Think about it, though. How can a system with independent national entities exist with this type of strict moral adherence? This is not a completely failsafe solution, and there is always the possibility that a Hitler-type conqueror comes up somewhere in the world, and not adhering to any ethics is going to give such a guy a significant advantage in a conflict. (note the appeasement policy of the Allies before WW2) The only way in which we have advanced, and probably the only way in which we can advance, is in our mastery of knowledge, and that is really all that matters.

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No man has the right to torture another. Every human being has certain undeniable rights, no matter how "bad" that person is. If we treat them any less humanely then we ourselves become as "bad" as them. This is what we fight for currently, and this is what we (the allies of the UK,USA) have always fought for. We cannot abandon our principles when they become inconvenient.


We're not fighting for any principles in the first place, though. We are fighting for our survival and nothing more. Also, nobody has any rights in the absolute anyway; these "rights" are simply defined by the political situation at the time. :p
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: vyper on August 25, 2002, 09:46:22 am
Quote
Originally posted by CP5670
Also, nobody has any rights in the absolute anyway; these "rights" are simply defined by the political situation at the time. :p


I propound that this is a false premise. The concept of rights is derived from the idea of "right and wrong". This itself comes from the simple fact that the life of the just (right) man is more profitable (in both social and economic terms) than that of the unjust man (wrong).

Now, I imagine you would argue that many men in our world are unjust and live well. This is also a false premise. When you live unjustly, you are spurning the idea of a just life and therefore are surrounded by other unjust men - whom are just as ruthless and dangerous as you are.

So therefore - rights are a nescessity, if you are a just man.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: CP5670 on August 25, 2002, 10:52:05 am
Okay, now tell me how one can objectively determine whether a given action we can perform is right/just or wrong/unjust.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Blue Lion on August 25, 2002, 10:53:06 am
You can't, there is no list from that we can reference for this kinda stuff
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: aldo_14 on August 25, 2002, 12:03:52 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Blue Lion
You can't, there is no list from that we can reference for this kinda stuff


It's an intrinsic part of human behaviour.... it's reflected in our society and religions, and is what kept us alive when we were unevolved animals living in huddled packs in caves.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: CP5670 on August 25, 2002, 12:18:01 pm
There is no such thing as an intrinsic part of human behavior. Why did Hitler not have it, and more importantly, how was he able to convince millions to also ditch it? Trying to defend morals with rationality is frankly a futile exercise.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: vyper on August 25, 2002, 12:56:14 pm
Quote
Originally posted by CP5670
There is no such thing as an intrinsic part of human behavior. Why did Hitler not have it, and more importantly, how was he able to convince millions to also ditch it? Trying to defend morals with rationality is frankly a futile exercise.


Hmm, I will explain again.

Right and wrong is determined through the benefits of one type of life against another. Living by what we today coin as "right" is more beneficial to any one man than living the "wrong" way.

Note: Hitler did not "ditch" all morality and rationality - he merely had a different version of it than the majority of humanity and benfited from it in the short-term (hence why people followed his lead) however he eventually lost in the long term because of this postion.

Without morality, and a sense of right and wrong, our society breaks down. At that point laws become nothing more than draconian chains around us: We no longer avoid doing something because its wrong, and rather because its illegal. This leads to a loss of law and order because law is much easier to disreguard than one's concience.

You are attempting to argue against ideals that have kept you alive today and allow you to post the messages you post here.
I am afraid it is your postion that is futile.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: aldo_14 on August 25, 2002, 01:11:25 pm
Quote
Originally posted by CP5670
There is no such thing as an intrinsic part of human behavior. Why did Hitler not have it, and more importantly, how was he able to convince millions to also ditch it? Trying to defend morals with rationality is frankly a futile exercise.


Firstly, hitler was deranged.  He was insane, and blamed his sufferings on hate figures - the Jews and Soviets.  It wasn;t obvious enough for people to pick up on - but it was there. If he was 'normal', we'd have a lot more 'Hitlers'.

Secondly, he didn't convince people to disregard their morals.  When Hitler came to power, Germany was in recession, and he offered them full employment - the killing of Jews came during the war, when nationalistic fervour ensured many didn't know, or chose not to believe.  Some in the SS were press ganged, and terrified of their commanders, or the truly vicous ones.

From a German (civillian) point of view, the war was (through propaganda) a war to 'free' German minorities being persecuted in Czechoslovakia and Poland, to reunite the German peoples, and  and to gain the security denied to them by the Treaty of Versailles....

Incidentally, the public had very little say in Hitlers actions once he took over.... but note this - when Hitler became Chancellor of a coalition government, the Nazi party had only around 1/3 or the vote...

Suffice to say, to say that millions gave up their morals is wrong.  Their morals may have been twisted by propaganda (also, the Church - traditional preserver of morality - had been outlawed), but the vast majority probably had no idea that jews, etc were being gassed.

Morals are essential to a group dynamic.  It';s ignorant and god-damn idiotic to say otherwise - else we'd have no need for police, medical or fire sevrices (why help others?), we'd be killing each other (including babies that were too difficult to care for, or children that were irritating) without hesitation and every basic facet of human life would cease to function.  no farming food for other people, no economy, etcetera.  human life would cease to function, and we'd probably eventually die out.  In fact, we'd probably have diead out as a nomad race, isolated and starving to death, thousands of years ago.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: CP5670 on August 25, 2002, 01:11:45 pm
Quote
Right and wrong is determined through the benefits of one type of life against another. Living by what we today coin as "right" is more beneficial to any one man than living the "wrong" way.


Not beneficial to any one man, but beneficial to the whole only as it leads to a definite purpose. If it is only for one man, then morals still remain at their perceptual level. Now, back to the original topic, tell me why torturing prisoners to get information out of them is "wrong."

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Note: Hitler did not "ditch" all morality and rationality - he merely had a different version of it than the majority of humanity and benfited from it in the short-term (hence why people followed his lead) however he eventually lost in the long term because of this postion.


He changed the ideas around, which is what counts. His followers lost faith in him because he lost the war; if he had won, they would all have followed his ethics. But I arguing against aldo's point there that these morals are "inherent" in people.

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Without morality, and a sense of right and wrong, our society breaks down. At that point laws become nothing more than draconian chains around us: We no longer avoid doing something because its wrong, and rather because its illegal.


Correct, and that is exactly what is happening and will become much more pronounced in the future.

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This leads to a loss of law and order because law is much easier to disreguard than one's concience.


And now tell me why it is so easy to influence masses to act like criminals rather than just having an iron fist of law enforcement.

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You are attempting to argue against ideals that have kept you alive today and allow you to post the messages you post here.
I am afraid it is your postion that is futile.


I am not arguing from my own intuitive position - that is a capital mistake - but from a rational point of viewwith the objective of the whole continuing to discover knowledge.

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Firstly, hitler was deranged. He was insane, and blamed his sufferings on hate figures - the Jews and Soviets. It wasn;t obvious enough for people to pick up on - but it was there. If he was 'normal', we'd have a lot more 'Hitlers'.


I doubt he would think so, and he would instead say you are insane. Who is right? Both and neither.

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Secondly, he didn't convince people to disregard their morals. When Hitler came to power, Germany was in recession, and he offered them full employment - the killing of Jews came during the war, when nationalistic fervour ensured many didn't know, or chose not to believe. Some in the SS were press ganged, and terrified of their commanders, or the truly vicous ones.


You think that will account for all of it? He would not have been able to recruit the huge bands of officers. Besides, after Hitler fell, many of his previous admirers felt completely disillusioned; they said that their very minds very being controlled. Now, we extend this principle. The culture of today heavily dictates these morals, and so we all follow them without question, since we have been taught to believe that only this is right.

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Suffice to say, to say that millions gave up their morals is wrong. Their morals may have been twisted by propaganda (also, the Church - traditional preserver of morality - had been outlawed), but the vast majority probably had no idea that jews, etc were being gassed.


The army officers all knew, and there were many of them. Heck, there was one incident with an SS commandant who was to oversee some medical experiments on some Jews, but when he was informed that one was actually not a Jew, he could not bring himself to do it. Just goes to show that the surrounding culture completely determines the morals, and they are thus not absolute.

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Morals are essential to a group dynamic. It';s ignorant and god-damn idiotic to say otherwise - else we'd have no need for police, medical or fire sevrices (why help others?), we'd be killing each other (including babies that were too difficult to care for, or children that were irritating) without hesitation and every basic facet of human life would cease to function. no farming food for other people, no economy, etcetera. human life would cease to function, and we'd probably eventually die out. In fact, we'd probably have diead out as a nomad race, isolated and starving to death, thousands of years ago.


You are talking about things that morals imply as a rational part of the civilization applied to certain area and then casually assuming that they must apply without exception to everything and everyone. Other conditons have changed and must be taken into account; instead, you follow it like a religion. People started helping others to get help in return, i.e. the mutual interest I spoke of earlier.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: aldo_14 on August 25, 2002, 01:31:22 pm
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Originally posted by CP5670

You are talking about things that morals imply as a rational part of the civilization applied to certain area and then casually assuming that they must apply without exception to everything and everyone. Other conditons have changed and must be taken into account; instead, you follow it like a religion. People started helping others to get help in return, i.e. the mutual interest I spoke of earlier.


There's no mutual interest in raising a child.... all it does is take up resources and time....  but that's the cornerstone of humankind.  And it's necessarry, because our brains are still very unformed at birth.  so we have an instinctive paternal drive to help young children, to protect them, and help them if need be.  In the same way, most of us will help an injured young animal if possible.  

Or what about helping a stranger sitting by the side of the road having a heart attack?

Or giving money to charity?

all these have no 'mutual benefit; that we can percieve, but we do them.

Morality is the cornerstone of human civillisation - it's what defines it, and it's lasted a long time.  Sure, it's changed, become diluted by the modern world.  But it's still there, and it's still a defining part of human behaviour.

Think of this - if you saw a man dying in the street, would you stop to phone an ambulance?
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: CP5670 on August 25, 2002, 01:36:19 pm
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Morality is the cornerstone of human civillisation - it's what defines it, and it's lasted a long time. Sure, it's changed, become diluted by the modern world. But it's still there, and it's still a defining part of human behaviour.


No, the search for knowledge is the true cornerstone. As I said morals have went up and down quite a bit, but this is really the only thing that has remained relatively constant.

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There's no mutual interest in raising a child.... all it does is take up resources and time.... but that's the cornerstone of humankind. And it's necessarry, because our brains are still very unformed at birth. so we have an instinctive paternal drive to help young children, to protect them, and help them if need be. In the same way, most of us will help an injured young animal if possible.


If we have such an instinctive drive, how can it be changed so easily? Nothing is truly inherent in the human brain; it starts off blank, but then assimilates information from its surroundings. Since we were brought up in a moral culture, we ourselves are moral, and we cannot imagine things otherwise. Think about this...why are we moral? The religious people at least have some excuse, namely that they don't want to be punished by the god, but why do the rest of us still follow it like a religion and yet call it rational? Because we have no choice. (I "intuitively" think just as all of you do, but I will not let that stop me from finding the truth)

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Think of this - if you saw a man dying in the street, would you stop to phone an ambulance?


Probably not, unless my emotions get the better of me.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Kellan on August 25, 2002, 03:23:01 pm
Quote
Originally posted by CP5670
Probably not, unless my emotions get the better of me.


That's odd. But I'm not going to go as far as to say you're sick. That would be...overly emotional. :p

As for Appeasement, it was at least in part an attempt by the European Allies to buy themselves some time to rearm, just like the Nazi-Soviet Pact was. We weren't stupid, y'know.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: CP5670 on August 25, 2002, 03:29:34 pm
Well, it also gave Germany time to rearm and they worked much faster since all of the nation's resources were being directed towards the military. Overall I am quite certain that if the Allied nations had fully known Hitler's intentions, they would have gone in immediately.

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That's odd. But I'm not going to go as far as to say you're sick. That would be...overly emotional.


It's okay, since almost everyone in the world is sick anyway. :D
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: aldo_14 on August 25, 2002, 04:28:27 pm
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Originally posted by CP5670


No, the search for knowledge is the true cornerstone. As I said morals have went up and down quite a bit, but this is really the only thing that has remained relatively constant.



Really?  Bollocks.  you're implying that all humans search for knowledge - truth is, very few do.  the majority just assimilate what they get told.  i bet 90% of your opinions, like most of us here, are based on what you've been told, not what you've actively sought out.

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If we have such an instinctive drive, how can it be changed so easily? Nothing is truly inherent in the human brain; it starts off blank, but then assimilates information from its surroundings. Since we were brought up in a moral culture, we ourselves are moral, and we cannot imagine things otherwise. Think about this...why are we moral? The religious people at least have some excuse, namely that they don't want to be punished by the god, but why do the rest of us still follow it like a religion and yet call it rational? Because we have no choice. (I "intuitively" think just as all of you do, but I will not let that stop me from finding the truth)


I think you'll find that much of our behaviour is intrinsic from birth - we can see, we can suckle, we know we don't want to wet ourselves, we know we need to sleep, we recognise our parents and trust them - i'm sure a child psychologist could give you a vast list of this behaviour.

I'm moral, because I feel I need to be.  It's instinct for me..... :nod:

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Probably not, unless my emotions get the better of me.


Does that mean your emotions are giving you an instinctive moral reaction to a given situation, so you know what's right?
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Kellan on August 25, 2002, 04:29:33 pm
Quote
Originally posted by CP5670
Well, it also gave Germany time to rearm and they worked much faster since all of the nation's resources were being directed towards the military. Overall I am quite certain that if the Allied nations had fully known Hitler's intentions, they would have gone in immediately.


Sure, if they had prevented him from ever re-occupying the Rhineland he'd have just been your average tin-pot anti-semitic local dictator - except with massive public works problems and no recessions, and so on.

However, since that little fantasy never happened, Appeasement was necessary to bring resources into usage in the Allied countries appropriate to the level of **** they found themselves in. :D
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: wEvil on August 25, 2002, 04:49:45 pm
Of course, they still failed to redress the very problems that allowed a local mad, anti-semitic dictator to rise to power.

The only difference is our modern dictators work via proxy.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Kellan on August 25, 2002, 04:51:49 pm
Quote
Originally posted by wEvil
Of course, they still failed to redress the very problems that allowed a local mad, anti-semitic dictator to rise to power.


Well, you can't have everything. :p
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: wEvil on August 25, 2002, 04:55:07 pm
on the contrary...it seems like one can't have anything.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Kellan on August 25, 2002, 04:57:51 pm
Quote
Originally posted by wEvil
on the contrary...it seems like one can't have anything.


Well, that depends who one is, and what one wants. But yes, for people with your (our?) ideological views, one can't have anything.

Anyway, I was joking. There's nothing wrong with dreaming.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: wEvil on August 25, 2002, 05:18:37 pm
Ideology is the blueprint, without that you just get a kind of cancerous seething mass of human detritus.

A bit like we're seeing now.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Kellan on August 25, 2002, 05:27:53 pm
Quote
Originally posted by wEvil
a kind of cancerous seething mass of human detritus


Now that is an image.

One, unfortunately, that I will take to bed with me.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Zeronet on August 25, 2002, 05:29:41 pm
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Originally posted by Kellan


Now that is an image.

One, unfortunately, that I will take to bed with me.


Its a negative image IMO.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Kellan on August 25, 2002, 05:30:58 pm
You think!?!
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Zeronet on August 25, 2002, 05:32:19 pm
Yeah i do.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: wEvil on August 25, 2002, 06:14:06 pm
:lol: :ha: :lol: :ha:
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: CODEDOG ND on August 25, 2002, 06:35:17 pm
CP is a little extreme, but I believe in morals on the indivdual scale which work and which make a society work, well sorta work.  

Morals in dealing with other countries is just plain stupid because it causes illogical descisions to be made.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: CP5670 on August 25, 2002, 09:05:27 pm
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Really? Bollocks. you're implying that all humans search for knowledge - truth is, very few do. the majority just assimilate what they get told. i bet 90% of your opinions, like most of us here, are based on what you've been told, not what you've actively sought out.


That is still searching for knowledge. If you assimilate what you are told, you are attempting to gain knowledge. And how much do you want bet on that last statement? :D (it can be verified in 9-10 years)

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I think you'll find that much of our behaviour is intrinsic from birth - we can see, we can suckle, we know we don't want to wet ourselves, we know we need to sleep, we recognise our parents and trust them - i'm sure a child psychologist could give you a vast list of this behaviour.


And this is much of our behavior? Notice that this all has to do with personal survival and does not even involve other humans. (trusting parents is not in the same category as the rest; we learn to do that)

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I'm moral, because I feel I need to be. It's instinct for me.....


And bin Laden is the way he is because he instinctively feels he needs to be, and suicide bombers blow up stuff because they feel they need to. :D Actually, I feel this instinct just as much as you do because I have been brought up in the same kind of surroundings, but I at least have recognized that, like every other "intuitive" thing out there, it is almost like a fatal disease when it comes to philosophical speculation.

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Does that mean your emotions are giving you an instinctive moral reaction to a given situation, so you know what's right?


Yes they are, just as they are for anyone else in the world today, but they are not necessarily helpful to my objectives. Just because you "feel" that something is right is no reason to rationally assume that it is right, or even influence thinking in that direction one bit.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: aldo_14 on August 26, 2002, 12:39:35 pm
It's interesting how, the more intelligent people are, the less they seem to be able to trust their brain.  Or their emotions.  Possibly because they can't control nor understand them, and that, in some way, scares them.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: CP5670 on August 27, 2002, 01:45:26 am
Perhaps that is because the more they learn, the more they are realizing that what they previously thought they understood and controlled is actually neither understood nor controlled. ;) (yet, that is)
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Bobboau on August 27, 2002, 02:01:56 am
or perhapse they fear a loss of control, or are useing there knowleg to gain a sence of superiority over others
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: wEvil on August 27, 2002, 02:35:08 am
I resent "feeling stupid".

I don't think there's any point in feeling superior to anybody because more often than not it just annoys them.

But the brain is like a muscle, excersise it and it gets better (marginally).  If you're stuck doinga mind-numblingly boring job (like I am at the moment) you realise just how important a deal of mental stimulation is.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Fineus on August 27, 2002, 02:35:37 am
There's nothing wrong with a sense of superiority - that can be kept safely in your own head. It's when you begin to let that affect how you interact with others that you (or they) get problems.

Add the posession of power into the mix and things get even worse.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Sandwich on August 27, 2002, 05:15:19 am
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Originally posted by Thunder
There's nothing wrong with a sense of superiority - that can be kept safely in your own head. It's when you begin to let that affect how you interact with others that you (or they) get problems.

Add the posession of power into the mix and things get even worse.


I'm not sure I agree with you there - an inner sense of superiority can and does affect our subconcious behavior in ways that we simply cannot notice nor control. Body language, gestures, even habits can change after some time. And usually (unless that person had suffered previously from a complete lack of self-worth), those changes are not positive ones.

So one needs to be careful about, essentially, pride.

"Let other lips praise you, not your own."
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: CP5670 on August 27, 2002, 12:52:35 pm
I think I agree with sandwich there; these things cannot really be removed as long as a "free will" exists, and some of these so-called "bad" traits (pride included) are one of the things that keep the human civilization progressing. Of course, that applies as a mainstream rule for the masses rather than for individual people. ;)
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: aldo_14 on August 27, 2002, 05:45:30 pm
#what about the pride that drives people on to achieve greater things?  Or the free will to experiment in ways that might not be open to them if other people had influence over them....... free will is one of the thing sthat defines humanity - don't knock it.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Sandwich on August 27, 2002, 08:10:49 pm
Quote
Originally posted by aldo_14
#what about the pride that drives people on to achieve greater things?  Or the free will to experiment in ways that might not be open to them if other people had influence over them....... free will is one of the thing sthat defines humanity - don't knock it.


:wtf: How did you get from pride to free will?? :confused:
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Stryke 9 on August 27, 2002, 09:08:35 pm
Yeah! Let's nuke those sand niggers and everyone else in that hemisphere! That'll teach the bastards to fail to emulate our politics and suck up to us! So what if we're at least as much of a threat to the world? So what if, at the very least, if Saddam really has bio-bombs this'd be the best exusce in the friggin' universe to use 'em? I want an a-rab head mounted on my Jeep hood! And while we're at it, we should move into a full-scale empire and take over those goddamn European ingrates, because everything is our ****ing business! USA! USA! USA!

Man, that felt good. Now I kinda don't wanna go back to using rational arguments. And I get to be offensive if I'm sarcastic! Whee!
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Stryke 9 on August 27, 2002, 09:24:03 pm
All right, how about this reason not to invade Iraq: It's none of our damned business. If the US is an empire, I'd feel much better if we came out and admitted it. Until then, we are most certainly NOT the high moral ground, or the judge of the world. Hell, we're the only industrialized Western nation still killing its own citizens. Like it or not, we're the psycho hicks of the world, and the less we meddle in other peoples' business, the better. And that includes to the extent of letting a charismatic despot kill his own people. When they get sick of it, they'll kick his ass something good, just like has ALWAYS HAPPENED, WITHOUT FAIL, when the government became too much, throughout history. The only reason to really intervene is that we're greedy powermongers, using this as a lever to increase our chokehold on the one area of the world that still openly bares its teeth to US imperialism. And our government's at least as despotic as Saddam, if recent foreign policy trends are any indicator, it's just that our government does it to everyone else's people.

Or, if you want to go the pro-US route, because our greedy powermongering and meddling where we should not is already losing us our allies. Europe, once essentially a puppet of the US, is really starting to get uncomfortable with us. Most nations already are starting to get unpleaasant with the US, like the drunk at a party that keeps picking fights, feeling up the women, and making loud declarations. We're toeing the line where they throw us out, except that in international politics, the dude doesn't go throw up in the nearest dumpster, the nation has its leaders killed, its morale crushed, and its population effectively enslaved by the invaders. I'm sick of being dicked with by government as it is, I don't wanna be a colony. The colony, as always in history, really gets it up the collective arse, and it's not fun.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: CP5670 on August 27, 2002, 10:54:03 pm
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#what about the pride that drives people on to achieve greater things?  Or the free will to experiment in ways that might not be open to them if other people had influence over them....... free will is one of the thing sthat defines humanity - don't knock it.


But do they have a free will? The individuals' likes and dislikes, which directly determine their wills, are almost completely based on their cultural surroundings as they are growing up, and they think it is a conscious decision.

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It's none of our damned business.


Once again, everything is everyone's business; using ethical arguments everywhere is just making you look silly. The US is indeed the big evil empire of the world and composed up of "greedy powermongers," and what is wrong with that?
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Liberator on August 27, 2002, 11:10:51 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Tiara


Didn't say that... But simply invading is stupid.


Stupid how?

Stryke 9, how's this for moral high-ground.
If and when we go in to get him and his cronies we will be acting to prevent him from igniting a war that would end up killing millions.

Example
Say he has some Nukes and uses them on Israel.  What's Israel going to do?  Nuke him back till the entire country glows.  Then Syria gets involved and invades from the east, and Egypt from the west.  The Isreali army moves and blunts the invasion.  Isreal is good but their not that good, so we move in and help.  Meanwhile, the @#$@# castrated European Union sit there and shouts instead of helping to stabilze an already huge disaster, because they still think they can negotiate their way out.  Remember, Words don't work with everybody.  Often as not they only stave off the inevitable.

Another thing why do you think they hate Israel and the United States?

1.  Israel and the United States are Republics.  Meaning that the citizentry is free to act as they will within certain loose guidelines.  This is anethema to dictators and true powermongers the world over.

2.  They hate Israel because its Israel, and the hatred goes back MILLENIA, not decades, or a century.  The Hatred of Israel predates the Roman empire.

3.  On some level, they hate Israel for having green grass and fields while they're own countries are essentially wasteland.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: vyper on August 28, 2002, 03:58:47 am
While I agree with you on a certain level Liberator I feel it my responsibility to point out that its not American against the world - the UK is not part of the "castrated European Union" in the sense of military action.  While I admit internal politics may be a stumbling block, this is our party too. :devil:
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on August 28, 2002, 04:40:33 am
Saddam and NBC weapons.

We know he has chemical weapons, most likely bioweapons too. Nuclear: still have to see the proof of that.

However, for all those screaming the'll use them irrigardless of the situation, you may want to remember that Saddam had the chance to gas Israel during the Gulf War. Of course he didn't as he knew that would mean the end of him altoghter.

Never forget that Saddam, above all, craves power. Even despite the rethoric he spouts.
So as long as he has nothing to lose he won't use WMD/NBC on anyone but his own (cruel in any case)

Cornering him so that there's no way out, no way to survive for him might very will trigger Saddam to use everything he has, to cause as much hurt as he can. After all, he'll be dead/out of power soon.

And that, IMHO, is the reason why anyone wanting to oust Saddam should thinkg not once, not twice, not trice, but many times before doing acting.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: TheCelestialOne on August 28, 2002, 04:57:17 am
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Originally posted by Liberator


Example
Say he has some Nukes and uses them on Israel.  What's Israel going to do?  Nuke him back till the entire country glows.  Then Syria gets involved and invades from the east, and Egypt from the west.  The Isreali army moves and blunts the invasion.  Isreal is good but their not that good, so we move in and help.  Meanwhile, the @#$@# castrated European Union sit there and shouts instead of helping to stabilze an already huge disaster, because they still think they can negotiate their way out.  Remember, Words don't work with everybody.  Often as not they only stave off the inevitable.

~And wait for the nice yellow snow during the nuclear winter~
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: vyper on August 28, 2002, 04:58:40 am
All the more reason to stop him now.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: TheCelestialOne on August 28, 2002, 05:00:41 am
Quote
Originally posted by vyper
All the more reason to stop him now.


...:wtf:...

This happens if YOU guys nuke 'm. Get things straight on your own continent and don't come bothering us before you are absolutle PERFECT yourself.

*looks at CP's artificial governmet*

*smiles*
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: vyper on August 28, 2002, 05:09:09 am
Quote
Originally posted by TheCelestialOne


...:wtf:...

This happens if YOU guys nuke 'm. Get things straight on your own continent and don't come bothering us before you are absolutle PERFECT yourself.

*looks at CP's artificial governmet*

*smiles*


Its an island, not a continent.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: TheCelestialOne on August 28, 2002, 05:13:06 am
Quote
Originally posted by vyper


Its an island, not a continent.


Sorry, was talking about America.

Then go back to your island and don't think you can decide over the fate of the world.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: CP5670 on August 28, 2002, 08:52:26 am
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Cornering him so that there's no way out, no way to survive for him might very will trigger Saddam to use everything he has, to cause as much hurt as he can. After all, he'll be dead/out of power soon.


The solution to this is simple: something like blitzkrieg, or lightning war. Destroy everything there completely before he has time to respond. (actually, a good idea is to send in commando teams to eliminate him first, and then immediately begin a surprise assault; this would already cause a good portion of his army to turn disloyal) Time is critical here, but with today's technology, the nation can easily be overtaken in a few hours, along with the deaths of all the high military officers.

I don't see how he would be dead or out of power any time soon as long as he is alive, and nobody within the nation is going to be so foolish as to try and stand against him. As long as he is alive, he is a threat.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on August 28, 2002, 09:15:02 am
Quote
Originally posted by vyper
All the more reason to stop him now.


Have you even read what I posted? This is what will/could/might happen if/when you attack.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Mr Carrot on August 28, 2002, 12:37:50 pm
Nah the millitary infrastructure is too big and well trained for a "lightning assault" with no backing to topple anything.

They how ever couldnt resist a drive by anything approaching Corps sized, its not going to be a high casualty conflict. The only problem is world oil price.

And stop raggin on Europe FFS, this is the first time in 10 years America left behind some of its isolationist policies, Europe was destroyed by war only 60 years ago, in Germany those wounds still havnt healed.

France and Britain are always up for a scrap IF its justified. I say go for it, but theres not enough proof to placate the large liberal communities in any country (including your own).
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Stryke 9 on August 28, 2002, 04:05:19 pm
Wait- what war? Saddam isn't really concerned with attacking anyone else around, and hasn't been since the Gulf War. He knows that attacking a significant source of Amerikan oil would mean the end of him, in a cloud of long-range missiles and bombs fired at complete random in his general direction. There's no way in hell he'd start a war, and there's no justifiable reason to go in there and kill people until and unless he starts one.
Title: Re: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: JR2000Z on August 28, 2002, 05:00:48 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Bobboau
do you think they realy like him as there ruler?




Do you think they had a choice? He killed anyone who threatened him.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Stryke 9 on August 28, 2002, 06:19:47 pm
Nothing new. He's not half as bad as most despots in history. Truth is, if the majority of people hated him so much they felt they had nothing to lose by overthrowiung him, he'd be dead by now. Simple fact of numbers- a good chunk of the population, fighting street warfare with whatever armanent they have handy on turf THEY understand implicitly, against any army, factoring in the number of military defections that result from attacking the civilian populace, amounts of captured weaponry, etc., etc.- He'd have a year of rebellion, then he'd be lynched in the streets. Simple as that, and there's really no denying it, since it has never failed. However, that ain't gonna happen. I'd wager one of the main reasons why is the unifying power that a constant state of siege by the U.S. has- it has a tendency to make the government more popular than ever. Look at what happened over even the little panic after September 11- now imagine the few days after that, when the mass's attention span was still on "we're under attack! Yaah! They hate us because we're good! USA! USA!" perpetuated every day, for years on end. Essentially, we're the ones who put him in power, we're the ones that kept him in power, we're the ones who've made him more beloved than ever.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: CP5670 on August 28, 2002, 07:12:07 pm
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Nah the millitary infrastructure is too big and well trained for a "lightning assault" with no backing to topple anything.


Yes, but you see, few of them are really loyal to him, and a good portion of his army will stop fighting when the new spread that he is dead. The best thing would be to strike at the heart first and eliminate all the top men, and then move outward from Baghdad.

Quote
Essentially, we're the ones who put him in power, we're the ones that kept him in power


So let us also be the ones to take him out of power. :D
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Stryke 9 on August 28, 2002, 07:17:27 pm
Why? We're doing such a good job!

Actually, we should be doing neither. Shortly after we stop getting involved, the people stop fixating on the enemy in the west, realize what a pain in the ass he is, and he's gone. Wham. We're still there, to defend our allies, so he won't be able to start another war too successfully to replace the current stalemate, and without threats from outside he's nothing. Just like Castro's free nation would be another of our poor, small-island slaves within months if we stopped the embargoes against him.
Title: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Post by: Mr Carrot on August 28, 2002, 07:43:49 pm
We never faught the republican guard in large numbers, these will be more loyal then the conscripts (and better trained).