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Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Bryan See on April 10, 2019, 12:08:36 pm

Title: First-ever direct image of a black hole
Post by: Bryan See on April 10, 2019, 12:08:36 pm
(https://static.projects.iq.harvard.edu/files/styles/os_files_xlarge/public/eht/files/20190410-78m-800x466.png)

There is widespread attention about the first-ever direct image of a black hole and its shadow, taken by the ground-based Event Horizon Telescope (EHT).
Title: Re: First-ever direct image of a black hole
Post by: DefCynodont119 on April 10, 2019, 02:17:17 pm

here's some context.
Title: Re: First-ever direct image of a black hole
Post by: DefCynodont119 on April 10, 2019, 02:23:10 pm
Scott manly context:

Title: Re: First-ever direct image of a black hole
Post by: Colt on April 10, 2019, 04:00:51 pm
I honestly wasn't expecting the quality of the image to be this good. Thought it'd be more blurry. Very exciting!

And to think, this one's in a galaxy much much farther away from us compared to our own resident black hole. I look forward to when they can get an image of Sgr.A
Title: Re: First-ever direct image of a black hole
Post by: perihelion on April 10, 2019, 08:34:02 pm
There’s an awful lot of interstellar gas and dust between us and Sagittarius A*. Not to mention a lot of stars very close to the target and within the visual arc the make for a very poor signal to noise ratio in virtually every wavelength we’ve tried so far. Direct line of sight may not be possible.

But it is still sending goosebumps down my spine to see hard visual confirmation of these monsters! (In a good way!) 
Title: Re: First-ever direct image of a black hole
Post by: Bryan See on April 10, 2019, 09:07:13 pm
Does it mean all black holes look the same?
Title: Re: First-ever direct image of a black hole
Post by: Black Wolf on April 10, 2019, 09:28:31 pm
All black holes look exactly the same, apart from size. I imagine there's probably some variation in the accretion disc, but probably not massive variation. I doubt there's vast visual difference between black holes.
Title: Re: First-ever direct image of a black hole
Post by: Luis Dias on April 11, 2019, 10:38:02 am
I'm slightly skeptical about the end result, there's a lot of algorithmic pressupositions that were used to fill in the gaps of just using around 8 telescopes around the globe.

But the feat is amazing in itself. I can't wait for new radiotelescopes to enter the network, and to see if there are noticeable differences if they use, say, 20 or 30 telescopes instead of the ones they used.
Title: Re: First-ever direct image of a black hole
Post by: The E on April 11, 2019, 11:46:41 am
I'm slightly skeptical about the end result, there's a lot of algorithmic pressupositions that were used to fill in the gaps of just using around 8 telescopes around the globe.

But the feat is amazing in itself. I can't wait for new radiotelescopes to enter the network, and to see if there are noticeable differences if they use, say, 20 or 30 telescopes instead of the ones they used.

I don't think more scopes will fundamentally alter the basic facts here; It's not like anything we'd be able to see at higher resolution would invalidate the point that Relativity has been confirmed again.
Title: Re: First-ever direct image of a black hole
Post by: X3N0-Life-Form on April 12, 2019, 04:04:10 am
xkcd doodled a size comparison, to give some perspective on the scale of this thing.
(https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/m87_black_hole_size_comparison.png)
Title: Re: First-ever direct image of a black hole
Post by: HLD_Prophecy on April 12, 2019, 08:04:34 am
I guess people think about this on a higher plane than I do.

lotta people on the net be like: confirms relativity science billions and billions science noise ratio science telescopes

and I'm just looking at this thinking dang, there's the thing that haunted my nightmares as a kid, confirmed.  :lol: Sense of wonder level turned up to eleven  :p
Title: Re: First-ever direct image of a black hole
Post by: perihelion on April 12, 2019, 08:27:47 am
 ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
They shouldn’t be mutually exclusive. For me, one reinforces the other. The more I learn, the more I understand, the more amazing the universe becomes!
Title: Re: First-ever direct image of a black hole
Post by: Luis Dias on April 12, 2019, 08:47:46 am
I'm slightly skeptical about the end result, there's a lot of algorithmic pressupositions that were used to fill in the gaps of just using around 8 telescopes around the globe.

But the feat is amazing in itself. I can't wait for new radiotelescopes to enter the network, and to see if there are noticeable differences if they use, say, 20 or 30 telescopes instead of the ones they used.

I don't think more scopes will fundamentally alter the basic facts here; It's not like anything we'd be able to see at higher resolution would invalidate the point that Relativity has been confirmed again.

Have to say, quite tired of more of this "Einstein's proven right yet again!" marketing schticks. It's not as if we hadn't had conclusive evidence of black holes before, let alone all the millions of different confirmations of GR.

But YES, the picture is brilliant... I have to disagree with your assessment though, there was a lot in that image that was "inferred". I wonder how much, and how much of algorithmic prejudice was put in the works so that the picture ended up very similar to the previous simulations.
Title: Re: First-ever direct image of a black hole
Post by: Phantom Hoover on April 12, 2019, 09:44:59 am
It's not as if we hadn't had conclusive evidence of black holes before,

We, uh, hadn't. Look it up. Previous observational evidence proved, I believe, the existence of various ultra-compact objects bounded by a sphere less than about 1.5 times the Schwarzschild radius, but this is the first time observations have been able to directly probe the event horizon.
Title: Re: First-ever direct image of a black hole
Post by: BlueFlames on April 12, 2019, 09:47:23 am
Five petabytes of data isn't enough for Luis.  Too many holes to fill in.  (You know, besides the one being observed.)
Title: Re: First-ever direct image of a black hole
Post by: HLD_Prophecy on April 12, 2019, 01:37:59 pm
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
They shouldn’t be mutually exclusive. For me, one reinforces the other. The more I learn, the more I understand, the more amazing the universe becomes!

Lol, you're right. Didn't mean it that way at all, just saying that it was only after reading people's reactions that I was like 'ohey, this is scientifically very notable and important'  :p my personal reaction having just been some variation of:

duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuude that's rad and creepy-cool  :lol:
Title: Re: First-ever direct image of a black hole
Post by: Mongoose on April 12, 2019, 01:51:15 pm
How many seconds from release until the first goatse of it? :p
Title: Re: First-ever direct image of a black hole
Post by: X3N0-Life-Form on April 13, 2019, 02:20:29 am
It's not as if we hadn't had conclusive evidence of black holes before,

We, uh, hadn't. Look it up. Previous observational evidence proved, I believe, the existence of various ultra-compact objects bounded by a sphere less than about 1.5 times the Schwarzschild radius, but this is the first time observations have been able to directly probe the event horizon.
Don't mind Luis, I can't recall the last time I've seen him be positive about anything. :)

How many seconds from release until the first goatse of it? :p
Well, goatse died some 15-20 years ago, so that seems unlikely.
Title: Re: First-ever direct image of a black hole
Post by: General Battuta on April 13, 2019, 04:03:51 am
All black holes look exactly the same, apart from size. I imagine there's probably some variation in the accretion disc, but probably not massive variation. I doubt there's vast visual difference between black holes.

Nah you can get a lot of funny stuff. Spin and related frame dragging will change its appearance (though almost all holes in nature are probably spinning Kerr types, unless they've been spun down with Penrose robbery). There'll be effects on the accretion disc and its apparent separation from the event horizon depending on spin type, presence or absence of polar jets, jet mechanism (also linked to spin type), the event horizon becoming oblong with higher spin, and, best of all, exciting differences if you dip your head into the photon sphere to see what's trapped there!

The big changes in appearance would be due to spin rate, matter in the ergosphere, and jets.

e: Also holy **** we skipped over the BIG difference - a tame, domestic stellar mass black hole couldn't look more different from an active galactic nucleus, our ol' buddy the quasar, which is among the most luminous things in the universe. Different types of black holes have the VASTEST visual difference!
Title: Re: First-ever direct image of a black hole
Post by: Colonol Dekker on April 13, 2019, 04:33:30 am
I wish you wrote high school text books......before I needed them in mean.
Title: Re: First-ever direct image of a black hole
Post by: Bryan See on April 13, 2019, 01:54:27 pm
Can this black hole really the window to some alternate universe?
Title: Re: First-ever direct image of a black hole
Post by: The E on April 13, 2019, 02:03:02 pm
No.
Title: Re: First-ever direct image of a black hole
Post by: DefCynodont119 on April 13, 2019, 02:25:55 pm
Quote from: Peter Hess
Once all 1,000 pounds of hard drives were filled with these 5 petabytes of raw data, they were loaded onto airplanes and flown to two centralized “correlators,” located in Massachusetts and Germany.

“The fastest way to do that is not over the internet, it’s actually to put them on planes,” said Marrone. “There’s no internet that can compete with 5 petabytes of data on a plane.”

Adding to this challenge, the scientists had to wait until summer to send the hard drives from the South Pole Telescope, as the images were captured during Antarctica’s winter.

The correlators then began the job of syncing up all the data from the telescopes with each other. This means that supercomputers took all the raw observational data collected by the telescopes and used the atomic clock information to line them all up with one another, creating a seamless record of the wavefront of light from the black hole as it reached Earth.

Full article: https://www.inverse.com/article/54833-m87-black-hole-photo-data-storage-feat


This is just bad*ss cool stuff right here.
Title: Re: First-ever direct image of a black hole
Post by: Bryan See on April 13, 2019, 03:22:27 pm
"Imagine a mod with the size of 5 petabytes of assets, textures and models. I doubt FSO, Knossos and HLP will handle it."

So how did these 5 petabytes of data can't be handled on the Internet? I wonder these limitations of over the Internet and cloud computing in general.
Title: Re: First-ever direct image of a black hole
Post by: The E on April 13, 2019, 03:34:18 pm
So how did these 5 petabytes of data can't be handled on the Internet? I wonder these limitations of over the Internet and cloud computing in general.

If you had read the articles about this project, you'd have seen that the data for this project wasn't handled over the internet. They just transported the storage media from the observatories to the University.
Title: Re: First-ever direct image of a black hole
Post by: Colonol Dekker on April 13, 2019, 03:49:15 pm
And there is no connection to mortal engines either.   Any mention of it will result in threadsplit and lock.
Title: Re: First-ever direct image of a black hole
Post by: Nightmare on April 13, 2019, 04:30:40 pm
On a more general note, it's amazing how fast telescope technology is advancing these days; something like this was considered impossible just 10 years ago IIRC.
Title: Re: First-ever direct image of a black hole
Post by: DefCynodont119 on April 13, 2019, 09:28:46 pm
On a more general note, it's amazing how fast telescope technology is advancing these days; something like this was considered impossible just 10 years ago IIRC.

One of the reasons I can't wait for James-Webb to be launched!

Seriously, the delays are driving me nuts. . . .
Title: Re: First-ever direct image of a black hole
Post by: TheBigCore on April 14, 2019, 08:04:57 pm
(https://static.projects.iq.harvard.edu/files/styles/os_files_xlarge/public/eht/files/20190410-78m-800x466.png)

There is widespread attention about the first-ever direct image of a black hole and its shadow, taken by the ground-based Event Horizon Telescope (EHT).

Now the real question becomes: What is inside the black hole?
Title: Re: First-ever direct image of a black hole
Post by: General Battuta on April 14, 2019, 11:24:42 pm
Now the real question becomes: What is inside the black hole?

Quality username/post combo
Title: Re: First-ever direct image of a black hole
Post by: Luis Dias on April 15, 2019, 06:27:10 am
Five petabytes of data isn't enough for Luis.  Too many holes to fill in.  (You know, besides the one being observed.)

[insert obvious obviousness about quality not being about quantity]

I mean, it's not as if the end result isn't a bitmap with less than 100kb of data, upsized on photoshopped with nearest neighbor filter or smth.

But my point was different, I won't repeat myself. Those who are bent to misunderstand me won't profit from such effort.

It's not as if we hadn't had conclusive evidence of black holes before,

We, uh, hadn't. Look it up. Previous observational evidence proved, I believe, the existence of various ultra-compact objects bounded by a sphere less than about 1.5 times the Schwarzschild radius, but this is the first time observations have been able to directly probe the event horizon.
Don't mind Luis, I can't recall the last time I've seen him be positive about anything. :)

He's on my ignore list, so if you hadn't quoted him it wouldn't even have crossed my mind in the first place ;). His point is just pedantic to the extreme, all predictions about the nature of BHs had been confirmed multiple times from multiple angles, astrophysicists have been studying supermassive black holes for a lot of decades now, no one has seriously doubted their existence for eons now.
Title: Re: First-ever direct image of a black hole
Post by: Phantom Hoover on April 15, 2019, 09:46:19 am
He's on my ignore list, so if you hadn't quoted him it wouldn't even have crossed my mind in the first place ;).

he was telling me to ignore you, idiot
Title: Re: First-ever direct image of a black hole
Post by: Colonol Dekker on April 15, 2019, 12:53:37 pm
Everyone be nice.
Title: Re: First-ever direct image of a black hole
Post by: Phantom Hoover on April 15, 2019, 05:30:04 pm
but luis has me ignored so if i call him a badger-molesting cuckold guilty of a litany of financial crimes what's the actual harm...?
Title: Re: First-ever direct image of a black hole
Post by: Colonol Dekker on April 16, 2019, 03:53:39 am
Good point well presented.
Title: Re: First-ever direct image of a black hole
Post by: General Battuta on April 30, 2019, 12:48:40 pm
We were doing black hole math yesterday to figure something out for a story, and discovered that very small black holes (on the order of millions or billions of tons, nothing you'd ever see up there in the sky) are actually insanely luminous, not from accretion disc or polar jet behavior but just from Hawking radiation (!). A hole in the <1 billion ton range will radiate more than one gigawatt! You'd be vaporized by its light before you could get close enough to get sucked in!
Title: Re: First-ever direct image of a black hole
Post by: General Battuta on April 30, 2019, 01:20:04 pm
Interestingly this also means that if you put in the energy to crush a given mass down to a black hole, then collect the hole's radiant energy for the rest of its lifetime, you'll actually come out ahead! Pure matter to energy conversion! It just takes ****ing forever.
Title: Re: First-ever direct image of a black hole
Post by: Nightmare on April 30, 2019, 02:21:28 pm
Is it actually only a GW? It is not that much on a cosmic scale.
Title: Re: First-ever direct image of a black hole
Post by: Colonol Dekker on April 30, 2019, 02:26:31 pm
.28 shy of time travel though ;)
Title: Re: First-ever direct image of a black hole
Post by: X3N0-Life-Form on April 30, 2019, 02:32:05 pm
Well, I've always said black holes were cool, but now I think I need to switch to saying black holes are shiny.

Incidentally, I've also been doing black hole math lately (using a million ton (tonne?) black hole), and now I wonder how many other around the world have been doing that following the release of Messier 87's picture. Black hole math is fun ! You can actually see spaghettification just from calculating things like the gravitational force and watch thing get wacky as you get within 5 meters of the point mass, or figure out how many centimeters away you'll need a rocket engine to pull away.
Title: Re: First-ever direct image of a black hole
Post by: Scourge of Ages on April 30, 2019, 02:36:24 pm
A hole in the <1 billion ton range will radiate more than one gigawatt! You'd be vaporized by its light before you could get close enough to get sucked in!

So, you're saying we would only need about 1,210,000,000 tons of black hole to time travel?
(also is that per second or hour?)

Is it actually only a GW? It is not that much on a cosmic scale.

No, it wouldn't be, but it's also ridiculously small. "A trillion kg, puts you at about the mass of a moderate size mountain" (src (https://www.quora.com/How-do-I-visualise-a-1-million-kg-What-on-Earth-is-this-heavy)) which would be compressed to black-hole size.

EDIT: Dang it, ninja Dekker!
Title: Re: First-ever direct image of a black hole
Post by: Phantom Hoover on April 30, 2019, 04:07:52 pm
note that the brightness of Hawking radiation is inversely proportional to the square of the mass; there’s no known way to produce black holes with masses less than a star, so these small bright holes remain entirely hypothetical
Title: Re: First-ever direct image of a black hole
Post by: General Battuta on April 30, 2019, 09:06:49 pm
Is it actually only a GW? It is not that much on a cosmic scale.

From something smaller than a picometer and not tremendously massive? Yes it is.
Title: Re: First-ever direct image of a black hole
Post by: Nightmare on April 30, 2019, 09:18:53 pm
Is it actually only a GW? It is not that much on a cosmic scale.

From something smaller than a picometer and not tremendously massive? Yes it is.

I don't doubt that a GW/<picometer is a lot; just compared to other things cosmic things it doesn't seem that much out of human scale.
Title: Re: First-ever direct image of a black hole
Post by: Colonol Dekker on May 01, 2019, 01:37:55 am
So the d'deridex was on to something....
Title: Re: First-ever direct image of a black hole
Post by: 666maslo666 on May 01, 2019, 02:29:05 am
We were doing black hole math yesterday to figure something out for a story, and discovered that very small black holes (on the order of millions or billions of tons, nothing you'd ever see up there in the sky) are actually insanely luminous

Black hole Hawking radiation was even proposed as very efficient starship propulsion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_hole_starship
Title: Re: First-ever direct image of a black hole
Post by: Mito [PL] on May 01, 2019, 05:44:19 am
Back some time ago, Isaac Arthur made a couple videos on how black holes can be used as an energy source or a matter-to-energy conversion tool. I suggest you watch it, these videos are really good.

Also, isn't what happens at LHD when particles impact each other technically creating single super tiny black holes that "evaporate" via Hawking radiation?
Title: Re: First-ever direct image of a black hole
Post by: Phantom Hoover on May 01, 2019, 06:19:05 am
No, that’s never been observed. As far as I’m aware individual particles are not expected to exhibit black hole-like behaviour until around the Planck energy, which is astronomically far beyond the wildest dreams of the LHC.
Title: Re: First-ever direct image of a black hole
Post by: General Battuta on May 01, 2019, 07:27:38 am
Is it actually only a GW? It is not that much on a cosmic scale.

From something smaller than a picometer and not tremendously massive? Yes it is.

I don't doubt that a GW/<picometer is a lot; just compared to other things cosmic things it doesn't seem that much out of human scale.

I don't know how to explain it to you if you don't get it already. It's not on the cosmic scale. It is a fraction of the size of a helium atom and weighs a very earthly amount (about the mass of a large mountain).
Title: Re: First-ever direct image of a black hole
Post by: Nightmare on May 01, 2019, 08:00:14 am
Just that if you had used something different you might have come to more impressive results.

Here's something that's still tiny but utterly destructive from a (hard) sci-fi side (I hope they did their math right): https://orionsarm.com/eg-article/49fe3e605d052.
Title: Re: First-ever direct image of a black hole
Post by: General Battuta on May 01, 2019, 08:02:20 am
:rolleyes:
Title: Re: First-ever direct image of a black hole
Post by: Nightmare on May 01, 2019, 08:16:26 am
?
Title: Re: First-ever direct image of a black hole
Post by: General Battuta on May 01, 2019, 08:29:11 am
You are not making sense on a number of levels.

1. Conversations aren't about having the biggest numbers, this isn't Stardestroyer.net

2. Yes, if you make things up, you can make very big numbers. If half of the matter in the universe became antimatter, and then we teleported it all to be coterminous with the other half, we could make a very impressive 'result'.

3. Yes, if we were talking about something different, we would indeed be talking about something different.

4. Why do you think any of this is...interesting to say? What are you trying to communicate?
Title: Re: First-ever direct image of a black hole
Post by: Nightmare on May 01, 2019, 03:34:29 pm
1. Conversations aren't about having the biggest numbers, this isn't Stardestroyer.net

Who says that? :P

I felt somehow that this was quite a more spectecular use of space-time things, but over the years since I read the article I forgot that it wasn't about hawking radiation, yeah... :sigh:
Title: Re: First-ever direct image of a black hole
Post by: X3N0-Life-Form on May 02, 2019, 02:55:46 am
For those who are curious about how the EHT does its interferometry thing, in about 12 minutes:
Title: Re: First-ever direct image of a black hole
Post by: Luis Dias on May 02, 2019, 03:07:13 am
Battuta, during your calculations, did you figure out how much time would that mountain-mass black hole would survive before complete evaporation?
Title: Re: First-ever direct image of a black hole
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on May 02, 2019, 05:27:24 am
Battuta, during your calculations, did you figure out how much time would that mountain-mass black hole would survive before complete evaporation?
I mean, since it's direct matter->energy conversion and you know it's radiating at a gigawatt (to start with) you can give a rough estimate of 1 billion tons * c² / 1 GW = approximately... 2.584 * 10^12 years, or approximately 190 times the age of the universe. That's an upper bound, though; the smaller the black hole, the faster it evaporates, meaning that the actual time will be significantly less. Specifically, according to the formula for black hole lifetime I found, it would take... 1.99 * 10^12 years, or approximately 140 times the age of the universe. So, still a fantastically long time.

(A black hole the mass of an aircraft carrier would apparently last about 2 years.)
Title: Re: First-ever direct image of a black hole
Post by: Luis Dias on May 02, 2019, 05:46:48 am
Whoa that's quite a lot of energy.
Title: Re: First-ever direct image of a black hole
Post by: General Battuta on May 02, 2019, 09:36:45 am
Battuta, during your calculations, did you figure out how much time would that mountain-mass black hole would survive before complete evaporation?

I did but I forget. It wasn't short by human standards. It should probably be easy to recalculate with any number of black hole doohickies, let me check...

I get something like 8*10^9 years.