Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Su-tehp on January 30, 2020, 12:58:06 am
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So I've got a question for you guys. Since my recent return to HLP (https://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=96176.0), I'm slowly trying to get acclimated to Freespace modding in the hope that I might eventually finish my Devil and the Deep Blue (https://web.archive.org/web/20040506154834/http://www.3dap.com/hlp/hosted/datdb/story.shtml) campaign. To that end, if my story is going to involve the GTVA going on the offensive to the Shivan-held star systems, it occurred to me that I'm going to need to name those Shivan star systems. When I made my original map of Shivan space (or at least the small section of it that DatDB was going to take place in when I first conceived the story idea of DatDB), I just named that region of space as "Known Shivan Grid 1" and just labelled each star system as "KSS-001," "KSS-002" and so on (KSS stands for "Known Shivan System" in case you were wondering). Having just returned to HLP and DatDB, I'm now thinking that just using numbers to name the Shivan star systems is just a bit too lazy so I'm going for something different and I could use some help from anyone willing to contribute.
I've decided to name Shivan star systems after sinister places or figures from varied mythologies and literature, so long as they're "not too obscure" for Western audiences. And yes, I realize that definition is totally amorphous and near-meaningless and entirely subjective. Basically, you guys can come up with foreign words for "sinister" concepts in more archaic languages like Greek or Latin or for famous villain characters in any mythology of your choice and post your suggestions here and I'll make note of the ones I like best and will give them mentions as star systems involved in the story of DatDB.
Here's a partial list of what I came up with so far:
Anthelios (for the binary system where Knossos 3 is located; it means “anti-sun” in Latin)
Gehenna (a small valley near Jerusalem; in rabbinic literature, it's a place that is reserved for the damned; this is the name of the "local" Shivan HQ because I want to name the Shivan "homeworld" something else, assuming I even decide to have the Shivan "homeworld" in my story)
Tartarus (the Greek prison of the Titans; sometimes referred to as “the place beyond hell”)
Kaliban (the deformed man-creature from Shakespeare’s “The Tempest”)
Sycorax (Kaliban’s mother who is mentioned but never seen in “The Tempest”)
Ishtar (Babylonian goddess of love and war who released all fire and brimstone to kill Enkidu)
Atrox (Latin for “cruel” and the root for “atrocity”)
Janus (the Roman god of deceit)
Tantibus (Latin for “nightmare”)
Vanitas (Latin for “emptiness” or “futility”)
Carcer (Latin for “prison”)
Tenebris (Latin for “darkness”)
Umbra (Latin for “shadow”)
This list has more than a few Latin and Greek words, to be sure, but I'm hoping for some words from non-Western mythologies from you guys. Feel free to use the above list as a source of inspiration for your own suggestions. ;7
And if you have an entirely different naming convention for Shivan star systems, feel free to suggest that too. :nod:
EDIT: My other caveat is to ask you to try to limit your suggestions to three or four (maybe five at the most) syllables. Overly long unpronounceable words might be good for a gag, but I don't want to include anything that might detract from the Shivans' aura of menace. :nervous:
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TBH if they are stars, they should be named like stars. Majority of systems from both FS games are existing in the real world, and bear real-life names. Not each of them match their real-life equivalent, like Capella that in reallity is composed of 4 stars but is mentioned as singular "Capella star" in FS2. You can add those systems somekind of codenames, but I really doubt if anybody pick some dark name for a star system because there are shivans there. In my opinion everything should bear standard, astronomic names.
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TBH if they are stars, they should be named like stars. Majority of systems from both FS games are existing in the real world, and bear real-life names. Not each of them match their real-life equivalent, like Capella that in reallity is composed of 4 stars but is mentioned as singular "Capella star" in FS2. You can add those systems somekind of codenames, but I really doubt if anybody pick some dark name for a star system because there are shivans there. In my opinion everything should bear standard, astronomic names.
But what if we're dealing with an area of space so far away that the stars don't have names yet? Shivan space might not be limited to just our galaxy. With the Knossos portal technology, it's almost explicitly stated that the other side of the portal could lead to anywhere in the universe. If you emerge from a Knossos portal (or the jump node on the other side of a Knossos portal) into a completely unmapped/unexplored area of space that might very well be in a distant galaxy, how do you start classifying/naming the stars there? DatDB is specifically about the GTVA taking the battle to the Shivans, but who said Shivan-controlled space is limited to just the Milky Way galaxy? The Ancients' empire was said to encompass multiple galaxies. Wouldn't the Shivans' reach be even farther than that, especially with their ability to use unstable nodes that no one else could use?
For that matter, will you even be able to tell where Earth or even the Milky Way galaxy is from where you're at if you're that far away, and if so, how? (Anyone with experience in astronomy is welcome to answer this last question for real if possible.)
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I think it's OK to give systems original names if they're in a different galaxy. The number of named stars in Andromeda (that made it into Wikipedia) is pretty short: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Andromeda_Galaxy
For my kinda-fanfic-like project I named the system where you run into a Shivan Dyson Grid "Devils Ground" as it seemed to me that none of the classic greek or latin names seemed fitting to me; but that is the only Shivan system and it's quite... special case.
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If you are going for a catabasis-theme, wikipedia has a handy list for you:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underworld
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If we were capable of taking photos of distant black holes in 2019 like we did with Powehi, we'll be able to make fully 3D maps of whole Galaxies by 2367. The AI will be fully implemented at this point, and will process countless petabytes of astronomical data. AI searching the sky for new celestial bodies, naming them and cathegorizing is a matter of not so-distant future. Optics is so far our biggest problem, but it won't be in 2367.
As the same point, majority of stars bear both astronomical names and traditional names while number of custom-named stars is also growing. I frequently take part in polls organized by IAU and contribute to picking custom names for stars and planets. The polls were not happening when FS was released, but presumbly by the 2367, all star systems canon to FS would be also custom-named.
So I suggest to keep traditional/astronomical names for stars, because military is likely to use such and this is convention used by Volition. At the same time custom names should exist and may appear in chatters and other less-official text.
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Well the Binary System and the Nebula aren't identified at all so you could keep (atleast at the beginning) them nameless. It'd be more like "we reached a star in a different galaxy!".
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You could name them after engagements. Ie- after the dominant resident shivan vessel?
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Welcome to the Sathanas (ex-)system~
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Well the Binary System and the Nebula aren't identified at all so you could keep (atleast at the beginning) them nameless. It'd be more like "we reached a star in a different galaxy!".
Keeping the Nebula and the Binary System nameless served a very particular purpose in the context of FS2 narrative:
- As far as the Nebula is concerned its nameless-ness is part of what makes in an indeterminable element, onto which all principal actors of the story can project ambitions, goals and needs: For Bosch it is the desert he has to cross to "lead his people from Egypt" because of his messianic delusions. For the GTVA is both a ressource rich frontier to exploit and, more importantly, a proving ground for their military technology, which allows them to test themselves against adversity. As part of the FS2 conclusion it actually proves to be neither - both goals expose themselves to be unachievable: Bosch doesn't "lead his people" but abandons them because that's how a messianic dellusion plays out; and the GTVA has to accept just matching the Shivans technology ammounts to nothing as the Shivans are not military force.
- The Binary System being nameless has more to do with it being only transit point between where the Sathanas Fleet is coming from and where it is going; its an allusion to the fact that the Shivans' range and scale of action(s) is much larger than the GTVA's. As such not naming it makes it very much an "anywhere". It is further characterized as "just a piece of road" by the fact that is very much just Knossos 3 -> Nebula jump node, and its other points of interest being the unnamed communication nodes, another feature defined mostly by connecting two other unseen points.
The fact that it is binary star system could not be read as an identifiable feature but as an allusion to the only other time FS2 shows twinned stars: Bosch Monologue 2. Which is framed by the lines "I hear my enemies speculate about my motives, my ambitions." and "What my enemies will never understand is ...". Where as the cutscene actually gives us the answers straight from Bosch's mouth, the Shivans remain silent in face of the inquiry (remember this a recon mission which doesn't really provide new insights).
Both points actually no longer apply outside the context of FS2's story.
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Huh, I dont buy galaxy-brain conspiracy theories about symbolism. Reminds me Goober's and Sesq's explanations for backgrounds in Scroll, while I and I guess lots of other people were just like "Huh? Black Hole system? Awesome!" when we first entered Marnakh.
I have simpler explanation: Nameless systems makes the feel of mystery and unknown deeper. And it works well. I remember when I entered Binary Star for the first time. Vibe of "wtf am I" was strong.
Besides it's probably impossible to extrapolate coordinates of Nebula system being inside, because no stars are visible. As for Binary Systems, I guess GTVA later figured out which stars this system actually is, but it happened after FS2... Or never, because Binary System is located so far away that it's astronomical surrounding is unknown for our star maps.
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The fact that it is binary star system could not be read as an identifiable feature but as an allusion to the only other time FS2 shows twinned stars: Bosch Monologue 2. Which is framed by the lines "I hear my enemies speculate about my motives, my ambitions." and "What my enemies will never understand is ...". Where as the cutscene actually gives us the answers straight from Bosch's mouth, the Shivans remain silent in face of the inquiry (remember this a recon mission which doesn't really provide new insights).
I'd keep out the link between the monolog scene and the binary system, Bosch hasn't been there (atleast not in 1 piece).
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Besides it's probably impossible to extrapolate coordinates of Nebula system being inside, because no stars are visible. As for Binary Systems, I guess GTVA later figured out which stars this system actually is, but it happened after FS2... Or never, because Binary System is located so far away that it's astronomical surrounding is unknown for our star maps.
The only thing ever stated about the distance is in the first nebula mission, "we probably travel farther than ever before in the history of subspace flight" or something. I'd generally support that, but OTOH it seems that GTVA knows some basics about the nebula (elseway Bosch wouldn't know about the supernova 8k years ago), just that it doesn't matter for the actual plot. Also, spamming the player with astronical details might be nice for nerds and people playing the game 20 years later, but it distracts from the actual story(telling).
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Symbolism is a matter of ambition, both in terms of writing it and finding it. I freely admit that I might be streching to find layers of connections because I aspire (and fail) to weaving such "effortless" symbolism.
Besides it's probably impossible to extrapolate coordinates of Nebula system being inside, because no stars are visible.
Well, if you just add a layer of explaination, which FS doesn't have because the rules of subspace are elastic on purpose, you could also extrapolate the location of the Nebula-Gamma Draconis Jump Node, or at the very least which nebula it is located in, through properties of the intersystem jump. All you have to do is to commit to a consistent set of properties for jump nodes and intersystem travel.
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Assuming that Knossos nodes work the same way 8000 years later.
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If I remember correctly, early terran government was surprised that the first stable jumpnode leads to Delta Serpentis instead of Beta Aquilae. This implies thet they had no means to estimate both distance and destination.
But apparently interstellar subspace corridor leaves no trace in normal space. No vector, no spacetime distortions, no nothing. Only entry point is detectable, and it's not easy to find.
Logically possible distance between Gamma Draconis and nebulae could be meansured by travel time, but for some reason it's also not happening. It may be impossible. Subspace is macroscale quantum phenomenon, so we can safely assume a certain dose of non-determinism is present in it's mechanics. Subspace nodes are constantly shifting. Some of them are stable for nanoseconds, so all existing nodes are probably also "vibrating". Their stability is constantly changing, but nodes classified as "stable" never leave stable compartment on stability gradient... So far. GTVA also don't know for how long they will last, but estimate thousands of years.
But this way, travel time changes every time you traverse the node, because stability affects travel time. Considering the fact that subspace nodes may be hundreds of AU long, even small shift on stability gradient means or can mean completely different measurement results.
I know I probably overanalize and "split **** into atoms", but GTVA may be actually unable to investigate which celestial objects Nebula and Binary Star really are. Still "mystery vibe" is simpler and more believable explanation then quantum woo.
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While it might be somewhat confusing, I massively find it more interesting to have jump nodes appearing to be random. Don't know where the Beta aquilae vs Delta Serpentis quote is from, Alpha Centauri would be logical to have as the most proximous system, but subspace follows very special laws that can't be explained by 21st century logic while certainly having a logic behind them, what makes the whole franchise more interesting.
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Very carefully.
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Or subspace follows no certain laws and is perfectly random and non-deterministic.
Subspace may be based on some quantum particles that are somehow naturally shielded from background radiation. This background radiation still exist and affect our particles, but they naturally resist. They have "spectral mass", so they have no real physical mass but partially acts like mass-positive objects on similar principles to light. Vibrations of stability of jump nodes may be actually manifestation of this quantum objects actively resisting decoherence, and nodes may be based on spontanously happening quantum entanglement.
Or every node is unstable, partially stable and stable at the same time via Schrodinger's principles. Just manifestation in 3D space is shifting between countless states constantly, because they occur all at the same time.
Who knows. We need qualified quantum physicist.
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Still "mystery vibe" is simpler and more believable explanation then quantum woo.
Mysteries that are means unto themselves are tad banal, no? ;)
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Who knows. We need qualified quantum physicist.
Just ask a Shivan :p
Wouldn't consulting the FS Reference bible help there? I don't think :v-old: had something particular deep in mind.
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Nyctaeus, if you can find that quote where the Terrans were surprised that the first jump node they discovered led to Delta Serpentis rather than Alpha Centauri, let me know where it is so I can see it for myself. I've never heard of anything like that and want to confirm its canonicity for myself.
That said, I'd like to refocus the discussion on the original topic, namely how the GTVA would name newly discovered star systems that haven't been explored for the simple reason that they're too far away from our own galaxy to have been actually observed yet. The nature of subspace can be discussed in another thread if anyone here wishes to create a thread for it.
I like Nightmare's suggestion that stars can be given original names if they're in a different galaxy. I also like 0rph3u5' suggestion about a catabasis-themed list, which seems particularly appropriate for a taskforce deliberately going into hostile territory, especially when the enemy are named "the Destroyers." The story of FS1 and FS2 is about the Terrans and the Vasudans fighting on the defensive, trying to hold the line against the Shivans and only barely succeeding at great cost. Devil and the Deep Blue involves the GTVA taking the risk of willfully descending into hell/the underworld because the alternative of doing nothing is far worse in the long run. Maybe naming the star systems in Shivan space after the different underworlds in human mythology might not be great for morale, but then again, the GTVA is not going to be naming those places with names like "Happy Fun Sunshine Land (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0573.html)."
Nyctaeus mentioning that by 2367, we'll (likely) have advanced enough in astronomy and AI to be able to categorize all stars in the known universe so the Shivan star systems will have traditional names is intriguing. Then again, I don't want to use Bayer's Greek letter system (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranometria), nor the Flamsteed numbers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flamsteed_designation), nor even the IAU List of Star Names (https://www.iau.org/public/themes/naming_stars/). The reason for this is that using these naming conventions feels too "familiar" for a descent into the unknown/"underworld." It sort of ruins the mood if you go into unexplored enemy territory and you see and recognize recognizable landmarks (or the stellar equivalent, anyway) such as stars that have already been discovered, categorized and named centuries before.
Therefore, it makes more sense for the GTVA taskforce to name these new star systems as they go; the sense of menace one gets from having to maneuver away from the enemy while in hostile (as well as unexplored) territory won't be diminished if the nearby stars are so unfamiliar as to not even have names.
I'm basically thinking of The Hero's Journey: DatDB is nothing less than a story of the GTVA knowingly descending into the Abyss to stop the Shivans and save their homes. Granted, they tried to do that in FS2, only to find out just how outclassed they were. Brute force with the Colossus didn't work, so this time the GTVA has no choice but to descend into the Abyss again and rely on guile instead.
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A lot of people here seem unaware that in real life, stars have many different accepted names depending on context and/or catalogs-
EG:
Alpha Centauri -is- Toliman -is- Bungula -is- Rigel Kentaurus -is- Gliese 559
and:
Antares -is- Alpha Scorpii -is- ADS10074 -is- WDS-16294-2626
and it gets better:
Capella -is- Alhajoth -is- Hokulei -is- Alpha Aurigae -is- 13-Aurigae -is- ADS3831 -is- Gliese194 -is- GJ-194 -is- HR-1708
here's one more:
Epsilon Pegasi -is- Enif (RE: Enif Station) -is- 8-Pegasi -is- HIP107315 -is- HD-206778
So basically there is nothing stopping you from having cataloged stars and giving them a new name as they are explored.
EDIT: the GTA/GTVA could have made more catalogs too, Delta Serpentis could be marked down as "SJN-01" (subspace jump node 1) or something.
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Well if the goal is to have DatDB imitate human mythology you could choose one, like those of the Maya and name the systems after them.
One way or another, having places named immediatly makes them familiar, even if you've never been there before. Of course it's highly reasonable that in 2367 you have a catalogue of stars so once you arrive in Andromeda so you could just say "oh we arrived in XYZ" but it makes everything rather known when it supposed to be a explorer campaign.
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Bungula
Bungula
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If you are going for a catabasis-theme, wikipedia has a handy list for you:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underworld
I would take that and expand upon it. In many of these cultures, their version of the underworld has regions/sections/layers/houses etc.
The Greek underworld has a few named rivers, at least two named fields (Elysium and Asphodel), the Tartarus (which I see you're already using).
Dante's Inferno has the Nine Circles of Hell, and while I haven't read it, I assume there are plenty of named places in each of the Nine Circles.
Going by the wiki list, Islam and Judaism have plenty of names for hell-related places too.
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From "Behind Enemy Lines"
(https://web.archive.org/web/20071110120649if_/http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/bel/campaignmap3.jpg)
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Naraka
More info here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naraka_(Hinduism)
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Bungula!
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Bungula!
Bunga Bunga
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I remember when "Behind Enemy Lines" was first announced and I first saw this map. I remember how the guy who announced it did it at the behest of his son who, when finding out that Interplay and V went their separate ways and Freespace 3 was never going to get made, basically said, "Well, why don't we finish it, Dad?" D'awww.
Not to mention that this map served as inspiration for my map(s) of DatDB.
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Yeah, while bumping into an really old thread I realized I probably didn't tell you anything new: https://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=367.msg6636#msg6636
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D&D has the names of the Nine Hells, plus many varieties of demons.
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Nine_Hells
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Baatezu#Types_of_Baatezu
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Tanar%27ri#Types_of_Tanar.27ri
Personally, I don't care too much about following realistic conventions for system-naming. It's more important to me that it makes thematic sense or just sounds cool.
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D&D has the names of the Nine Hells, plus many varieties of demons.
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Nine_Hells
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Baatezu#Types_of_Baatezu
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Tanar%27ri#Types_of_Tanar.27ri
Personally, I don't care too much about following realistic conventions for system-naming. It's more important to me that it makes thematic sense or just sounds cool.
There is that, certainly. With these D&D references, I'm thinking I should look up related references in Pathfinder as well. For myself, I think I like the demonology references from FS2 better than the Hindu names from FS1. I think they make the Shivans look a lot more diabolical...but then the Shivans' very name conjures Hindu themes from Shiva herself. I guess it's just personal preference.
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D&D has the names of the Nine Hells, plus many varieties of demons.
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Nine_Hells
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Baatezu#Types_of_Baatezu
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Tanar%27ri#Types_of_Tanar.27ri
Oh those are neat, maybe some lovecraftain names (like what was done in Derelict) could work?
Somewhat off topic but I just wanted to go on quick a tangent here:
Personally, I don't care too much about following realistic conventions for system-naming. It's more important to me that it makes thematic sense or just sounds cool.
There aren't any conventions for system-naming as far as I know, the conventions are only for the catalog designations.
What you call a Star depends on context:
The Henry Draper catalog (HD-Number and HDE-Number) lists stars by spectroscopic classification,
and the Bayer designation (Greek letter/number, Constellation) tells you the apparent brightness and where in the sky the star is. .
You can have both, A star's formal name can be anything, You could even world-build new catalog systems and it will be just as realistic, go wild.