Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: CT27 on April 13, 2020, 06:31:36 pm
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The "Command's mistakes" threads I've seen around here talk about what people think Command did wrong in FS2.
This is a thread for the previous games. Did Command make mistakes in FS1 (or ST...I'll also allow STR)?
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#1. It is nonsensical to refer to a Vasudan 'foothold' in their own home system
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How about the Command's inability to actually properly describe the amount of casualties in the briefing part on Operation Thresher?
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How about the Command's inability to actually properly describe the amount of casualties in the briefing part on Operation Thresher?
It's part of a military operation?
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"See if you can get into the Lucifer's fighter bay!"
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"See if you can get into the Lucifer's fighter bay!"
I think that could be explained in a meaningful way, but it's not done in the mission so it's just headcanon territory.
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What were Command's mistakes in FS1?
The same as in Fs2 - breathing, eating, talking, everything
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No, I meant the
Terran Command estimates Terran losses at 504 pilots dead, fourteen missing and presumed dead.
Is that a total casualty count? Is that only a pilot casualty count? Why even bother giving numbers when you're not going to show the whole picture?
Everyone criticises the "See if you can get into the Lucifer's fighterbay" part but... it kinda makes sense. This could possibly result in some major finding, or maybe a way to penetrate Lucy's shield.
Maybe that one moment where Command orders a transport to dock with Shivan cargo, and both explode shortly after?
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No, I meant the Terran Command estimates Terran losses at 504 pilots dead, fourteen missing and presumed dead.
Is that a total casualty count? Is that only a pilot casualty count? Why even bother giving numbers when you're not going to show the whole picture?
Maybe because the offensive was mostly carried out by fighters? It doesn't qualify as "worst thing" command did anyway.
Maybe that one moment where Command orders a transport to dock with Shivan cargo, and both explode shortly after?
Well they're fighting an enemy that wants to erase them, so risking the live of a couple people on a transport might be worth it if the cargo contains anything of relevance.
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How about in The Great Hunt when the Bastion is, what, 10k+ away from the Lucifer and command is hoping to have the Bastion close the distance. Really? I mean, command does eventually realize it's hopeless, but what was command's plan if it somehow did? Lob it to death? All the fighters/bombers already had the special subspace drives. Just launch ALL the fighters/bombers (ok, maybe save a few for defense).
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How about in The Great Hunt when the Bastion is, what, 10k+ away from the Lucifer and command is hoping to have the Bastion close the distance. Really? I mean, command does eventually realize it's hopeless, but what was command's plan if it somehow did? Lob it to death? All the fighters/bombers already had the special subspace drives. Just launch ALL the fighters/bombers (ok, maybe save a few for defense).
I disagree with this, let me make my case real quick.
The Bastion could:
Provide cover, draw fire, and do some damage when it had the opportunity.
And Standard plasma/laser turrets are surprisingly deadly when shields are taken out of the equation, plus even a little Point defense is better then no point defense.
Not to mention Earth and possibly all of humanity's survival is at stake, if the Bastion can help even just a little bit it's worth it, heck, Kamikaze-ing the Lucifer with the Bastion would have been a perfectly legit plan in this scenario! This is an All-Costs mission!
Furthermore, The late arrival was due to the Lucifer being faster and more subspace agile, not to mention the Bastion was slowed by a surprise Demon attack in the mission prior.
Command makes some dumb choices yeah, but I think in this instance it's just bad circumstance.
Now a real bad case: Why did command tell the transport to dock with the shivan cargo after the first one blew up? Isn't shivan tech beyond most scanners at that point? Just because the scanners said it was safe does not mean it was! And the other one read as safe too, and it still blew up!
Command literally made the exact same mistake twice in a row and learned nothing.
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For all Command knew, only the first cargo container was booby-trapped. That one wasn't scanned, but the second one was scanned.
(Also, about a minute earlier in the mission two other cargo containers were retrieved with no trouble.)
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Command should've parked a Orion on the exit side of the Sol-Delta Serpentis node.
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For all Command knew, only the first cargo container was booby-trapped. That one wasn't scanned, but the second one was scanned.
(Also, about a minute earlier in the mission two other cargo containers were retrieved with no trouble.)
I played this mission recently. After I scanned the second container it said "Indeterminate" so could they actually be sure?
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For all Command knew, only the first cargo container was booby-trapped. That one wasn't scanned, but the second one was scanned.
(Also, about a minute earlier in the mission two other cargo containers were retrieved with no trouble.)
I played this mission recently. After I scanned the second container it said "Indeterminate" so could they actually be sure?
Well the first time Terrans encountered Shivan cargo (the shield devices) they all self destructed so it's probably always a risk.
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For all Command knew, only the first cargo container was booby-trapped. That one wasn't scanned, but the second one was scanned.
(Also, about a minute earlier in the mission two other cargo containers were retrieved with no trouble.)
I played this mission recently. After I scanned the second container it said "Indeterminate" so could they actually be sure?
Well the first time Terrans encountered Shivan cargo (the shield devices) they all self destructed so it's probably always a risk.
The Shivans purposefully left those containers behind when the GTA showed up, And then one of them blew up once it was docked with, even if you take Genre Blindness into account It was still an obvious set up.
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Well GTA still managed to capture cargo (shield devices) even though it was made clear that the Shivans would rather have them self destructed then captured.
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Well GTA still managed to capture cargo (shield devices) even though it was made clear that the Shivans would rather have them self destructed then captured.
Oh, no no I was still talking about the mission with the two freighters that both get destroyed.
That is a different circumstance.
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I know- what I meant is following: despite the usuall Shivan habit of self-destructing cargo, GTA managed to capture some pieces despite the limited toolset they had. So even though it is risky to dock with a cargo with unknown content, it is not per se a death sentence.
All that happens in the context of a war where every bit of information might change the outcome (survival vs total annihilation)- ultimatly it was decided by the cargo of 3 Elysium transports. Even generic supplies might make a difference in understanding/adapting to the Shivans or reverse engineering due to the vast technological supremecy of the enemy.
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Command should've parked a Orion on the exit side of the Sol-Delta Serpentis node.
Do you mean have an Orion waiting inside the jump corridor right before the exit to Sol?
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Command should've parked a Orion on the exit side of the Sol-Delta Serpentis node.
Do you mean have an Orion waiting inside the jump corridor right before the exit to Sol?
Exactly. I doubt it would end well for Lucy.
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I heavily doubt an Orion, even with a full broadside at point blank range, could do enough damage to the Lucifer to cripple it before it flipped its shields back on. We are talking about a Super destroyer here. Emphasis on super. And if you mean a ram, even then that's doubtful.
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FS1 gameplay is really underdeveloped when it comes to capship battles. The closest there is to a proper anti-capital weapon mounted on any other capital ship is the Fusion Mortar. Which isn't mounted on an Orion.
My understanding is that in such a scenario (for example Lucy being actually chased down by the Bastion in some subspace node) the primary means of dealing damage would be strikecraft. After all, basically a single wing of bombers with several escort wings managed to nail her in Good Luck. Imagine what would the Bastion be able to launch directly while also acting as a diversion for the Shivan turrets and fighters.
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I heavily doubt an Orion, even with a full broadside at point blank range, could do enough damage to the Lucifer to cripple it before it flipped its shields back on. We are talking about a Super destroyer here. Emphasis on super. And if you mean a ram, even then that's doubtful.
Orion: 2km.
Lucifer: 2.7km.
Lucifer leaves subspace with several 100m/s.
Yeah I'd call it a ram.
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FS1 gameplay is really underdeveloped when it comes to capship battles. The closest there is to a proper anti-capital weapon mounted on any other capital ship is the Fusion Mortar. Which isn't mounted on an Orion.
My understanding is that in such a scenario (for example Lucy being actually chased down by the Bastion in some subspace node) the primary means of dealing damage would be strikecraft. After all, basically a single wing of bombers with several escort wings managed to nail her in Good Luck. Imagine what would the Bastion be able to launch directly while also acting as a diversion for the Shivan turrets and fighters.
I like the idea that FS1 destroyers are mostly carriers. That goes for Orion, Typhon and Demon. Also you have the other weapons (mortars) only on cruisers which serves as escort or assault units.
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Slightly off topic but I think it's worth repeating, (especially after playing frontlines) That the standard Terran/Vasuden turrets are actuality quite deadly against fighters and bombers before the advent of shields, so maybe cruisers could also fill an anti-fighter roll?
Like, I think that before shield systems became a thing, fighters and bombers would probably have been much lower on the "food chain", and used differently.
But even then I would still agree that FS1 destroyers are really just carriers by another name.
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What were Command's mistakes in FS1?
Not proofreading their briefings.
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Not vetting the GTI command structure for crazy megaship construction ideas.
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IMO, making the Hornet.
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IMO, making the Hornet.
Making so many useless weapons in general.
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Hornet's pretty good, but pilots should probably be warned that it's pretty much useless against fighters.
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I just always keep my hands away from them.
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Like me with waitresses when out with nah wife.