Hard Light Productions Forums
Site Management => Site Support / Feedback => Topic started by: Phantom Hoover on October 17, 2020, 10:31:14 am
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As I'm sure many site regulars are aware, nearly two weeks ago, Goober5000 took offence to a discussion that identified Trump and his base as supporting white nationalism, Goober included. He brought up the threat of legal action for defamation, and when this was roundly mocked and he was told that if he was going to support politicians the consequences were down to him, he unilaterally deleted the entire thread. This despite MP_Ryan doing what he wanted and asking community members to censor the offending material! At this point, the shutter came down, the mods said "we're dealing with it" and we've heard nothing since.
This is just not acceptable. Goober's far right views, tendency to argue about them and his willingness to use his official status in the community and membership of the leadership clique have, over the years, actively driven off several good members who were contributing to the community and has alienated far more people who just see the aforementioned clique acting first and foremost to prevent 'drama' and keep things amongst themselves, even if it means giving a toxic member his way. He has now flagrantly abused his administrative powers and every indication is that the admins of this site are intending to keep this hushed up and change absolutely nothing.
This must change. Goober is not essential to HLP. He does not need to be an administrator, the site does not need him in a leadership role, and in fact he is actively harming site leadership by remaining in his position. As non-moderator members of the community have been totally silenced and effectively told our voices mean nothing by the way the admins have chosen to handle this, I am publicly calling for him to resign or be stripped of his roles and for all who support this to join me in this thread.
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I think it sends quite a ****ty message that all discussion of this issue was kept internal, as though the only opinions that matter are staff ones.
No, Goober abusing his power isn't an issue that only concerns admins and moderators.
EDIT: oh, by the way:
by degrees or all-at-once, this has already been discussed
Yeah, and in that discussion (https://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=90964.msg1804065), everyone was either ok with it or indifferent, but Goober decided that his two dissenting voices were enough to decide the issue.
Goober abusing his power is hardly a new phenomenon.
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I'm very surprised that this moderation issue has taken this long, since I'm quite sure that anyone else who'd attempt to coerce people into retracting their views by taking legal action against a 90s game modding forum would just get an instant ban.
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I'm very surprised that this moderation issue has taken this long, since I'm quite sure that anyone else who'd attempt to coerce people into retracting their views by taking legal action against a 90s game modding forum would just get an instant ban.
I spend a lot of time lurking on HLP and very little posting, but even I can see that HLP has a time-honored tradition of arguing until everyone gets too bored/tired to do anything about the issue. This has been "in discussion" for 2 weeks and I don't expect any real change to come of it. I agree that he should be stripped of his role.
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Goober is not essential to HLP. He does not need to be an administrator, the site does not need him in a leadership role, and in fact he is actively harming site leadership by remaining in his position.
Says somebody who has contributed last time... how many years ago, if ever? HLP is a gaming forum, not a political discussion board; in particular none in which you need to have a certain opinion to participate in. Goober has spent like 1000 times more of his freetime operating the SCP and HLP as whole, than half of the people replying in this thread. I do not tolerate the abuse of moderating power in general; deleting the entire topic was certainly childish abuse and I hope that stuff like that doesn't happen again. However, the incident occured in question occured in a locked board, so it does not harm HLPs reputation by any sort. Also; you could say that ganging up on a member because of his views is damaging for HLPs reputation, scaring off people who don't consider themselves left-wing and perhaps prefer a community with non-toxic members.
The same way I could argue demoting The_E as Discord mod for his stupidity of kicking an active contributor over literally "idk, I somehow felt totally offended by this inoffensive statement somehow, can't really tell", but it got sorted out too.
And yeah the thread should be put somewhere where nobody can see it, no need to make the drama public.
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Says somebody who has contributed last time... how many years ago, if ever?
Who the **** cares? Contributing to the game does not require an admin title, and calling out abuse of power sure as **** shouldn't require it. If Goober can't deal with having his opinions meaningfully challenged without throwing a tantrum, then he's proven unfit for the job. I don't remember The_E, or Karajorma, or Sandwich, or Axem, or anyone else threatening legal action against anyone here or on discord.
And if enough contributions give you carte blanche do do whatever you want with nothing but a slap on the wrist, then at least stop pretending that the rules apply to everyone equally.
HLP is a gaming forum, not a political discussion board
Au contraire. The Political Discussions subforum is a political discussion board. You know, as the name implies.
Also; you could say that ganging up on a member because of his views is damaging for HLPs reputation, scaring off people who don't consider themselves left-wing and perhaps prefer a community with non-toxic members.
I don't remember anyone else throwing a tantrum like Goober did. If someone doesn't want to deal with having their ****ty political opinions called out, then they shouldn't participate in political discussions. No one forced Goober to rabidly defend Trump. Him deciding to do so and then throwing a tantrum because he got called out is like a schoolyard bully crying for his mommy the moment someone hits back.
no need to make the drama public.
Goober should have thought of that before throwing his tantrum.
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This isn't about political alignment. No other active admin has tried to pull a stunt like this to insulate their political views from criticism, at least not within the past several years. Goober's admin powers are a privilege afforded to him to help him serve the community just like everyone else's, not a right that he's earned by years of participation. He has made it abundantly clear that he is unworthy of that privilege.
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Who the **** cares? Contributing to the game does not require an admin title, and calling out abuse of power sure as **** shouldn't require it. If Goober can't deal with having his opinions meaningfully challenged without throwing a tantrum, then he's proven unfit for the job. I don't remember The_E, or Karajorma, or Sandwich, or Axem, or anyone else threatening legal action against anyone here or on discord.
And if enough contributions give you carte blanche do do whatever you want with nothing but a slap on the wrist, then at least stop pretending that the rules apply to everyone equally.
I don't remember anyone else throwing a tantrum like Goober did. If someone doesn't want to deal with having their ****ty political opinions called out, then they shouldn't participate in political discussions. No one forced Goober to rabidly defend Trump. Him deciding to do so and then throwing a tantrum because he got called out is like a schoolyard bully crying for his mommy the moment someone hits back.
TBH I just don't take internet drama that serious. If somebody who's not the lawyer of some big corp threatens people with legal action I give it a gringe and move along.
HLP is a gaming forum, not a political discussion board
Au contraire. The Political Discussions subforum is a political discussion board. You know, as the name implies.
WAIT. The Political Discussion forum is about something with politics? I thought it was about ****fighting.
no need to make the drama public.
Goober should have thought of that before throwing his tantrum.
Well Phantom Hoover decided to make it public, not I.
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HLP is a gaming forum, not a political discussion board; in particular none in which you need to have a certain opinion to participate in. I do not tolerate the abuse of moderating power in general; deleting the entire topic was certainly childish abuse and I hope that stuff like that doesn't happen again. However, the incident occured in question occured in a locked board, so it does not harm HLPs reputation by any sort.
Which makes it all the more baffling why Goober choose to threaten to sue people for defamation. It happened entirely because Goober disagreed with another member's political views, and the threats were made despite such political opinions existing not harming HLP's reputation or operation as an FS2 modding website, against people who have contributed a lot to FS2 modding over the years.
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Which makes it all the more baffling why Goober choose to threaten to sue people for defamation. It happened entirely because Goober disagreed with another member's political views, and the threats were made despite such political opinions existing not harming HLP's reputation or operation as an FS2 modding website, against people who have contributed a lot to FS2 modding over the years.
Yeah, I wouldn't doubt that that was pretty off, it just felt so completely out of place.
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Goober made this 'drama' public when he made public threats of legal action and then censored an entire thread when he thought he might not get his way. The consequences of his actions remain public. The real question is why it should have suddenly been made private for two weeks, other than to insulate Goober from the justifiable outrage and calls for him to face consequences from the general community.
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The whole issue about Goober and the thread in question has been discussed quite a bit in the internal boards and we're just in the middle of crafting public statements to communicate what's been decided and what's going to change going forward.
This has taken longer than we would have all liked, but people get busy so the discussion doesn't always come at as fast a pace as I'd like. For something like this I think it would've been a mistake to just let a couple staff members handle this mess alone.
Please continue to be patient.
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Just my 2 cents, as I don't pretend to be an authority on any matter.
What happens in General Discussion and Political Discussions should stay there. We've had plenty of drama on these two bards for nearly two decades, and said drama should not have an influence over other aspects of FreeSpace modding. (Political Discussions is rather recent as a board but it's essentially a branch of GD.)
This is a community where people actually get the stuff done, unlike many other communities of fans who can do nothing but argue over somebody else's work. HLP is different, it has always been.
I admit I haven't ventured deeper into the issue that occurred on GD between Goober and other members (I tend to avoid GD, anyway) but I don't see why an issue over there should have major implications on the way the productive part of the website is managed. I'd rather have GD and PD locked or vastly limited in activity than watch stuff like this happen.
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Threats of legal action over posts in PolDisc can hardly be said to have "stayed in PolDisc". Goober has crossed multiple important lines here, and I think waiting two weeks to see if the other admins recognise that and are willing to take measures to restore confidence in site leadership is more than enough time to be called 'patient'.
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I totally agree, and I'm going to do my best to make sure everyone on the forum gets this today.
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Threats of legal action over posts in PolDisc can hardly be said to have "stayed in PolDisc". Goober has crossed multiple important lines here, and I think waiting two weeks to see if the other admins recognise that and are willing to take measures to restore confidence in site leadership is more than enough time to be called 'patient'.
It doesn't change the fact that what you're proposing right at the beginning of this thread literally harms FreeSpace modding.
If you have an issue in GD/PD, limit your activity and replies over there, but don't involve FreeSpace modding in the process. As other community members have stated, HLP isn't a political discussion forum. This very website exists for a noble purpose that doesn't involve politics in any way.
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The whole issue about Goober and the thread in question has been discussed quite a bit in the internal boards and we're just in the middle of crafting public statements to communicate what's been decided and what's going to change going forward.
I don't doubt you're trying, but this should have never been kept to the internal boards to begin with. Why do only admin and moderator opinions count in this matter?
Well Phantom Hoover decided to make it public, not I.
Goober threw his tantrum in public, therefore he made it public.
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It doesn't change the fact that what you're proposing right at the beginning of this thread literally harms FreeSpace modding.
Seperate the art from the artist: Goober's ability to govern a website has nothing to do with his modding abilities. Goober not having an admin role on a forum does not affect his ability to work on FSPort or to contribute to the SCP, just like Mjn.Mixael not being an admin doesn't affect his ability to work on the FSU or on BTA. Ofcourse, the former dragging the latter into court -like Gooby threatened to do- would totally affect FS2 modding, which is in part why there's a bunch of outrage about this.
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I don't think so. That'd be one less person managing boards, codes and permissions. One less person attempting to get the website back online in case of hacking or server issues, and so on...
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It doesn't change the fact that what you're proposing right at the beginning of this thread literally harms FreeSpace modding.
Seperate the art from the artist: Goober's ability to govern a website has nothing to do with his modding abilities. Goober not having an admin role on a forum does not affect his ability to work on FSPort or to contribute to the SCP, just like Mjn.Mixael not being an admin doesn't affect his ability to work on the FSU or on BTA (although him being dragged into court for opinions by an admin of an internet forum would def. impact it).
This is correct, but that's a different thing between having talent at modding (elseway MJN would obv be admin) and doing technical stuff. Goober happens to be a programmer, what is necessary (to my understanding) to operate the forum as well as contributing to the SCP. Hence being Admin is not highest form of saying "you're the best dude EVA!!" or being popular, but that you can operate a forum technically; what Goob has been doing since... way before I came here first over 12 years ago.
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It never ceases to amaze me how some people will condemn those who call out toxic behavior as though the drama is their fault, rather than the fault of those who engaged in that toxic behavior in the first place.
All this drama you're complaining about could have been avoided if Goober wasn't such an asshole. Blame him, not the people calling him out for being an asshole.
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I don't think so. That'd be one less person managing boards, codes and permissions. One less person attempting to get the website back online in case of hacking or server issues, and so on...
If this is such a critical issue, it begs the question why Goober would choose to instead drag another FS2 modder to court.
If the argument is that Goober's special status as being one of the people who administrates this website protects him, my argument is that it shouldn't.
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I don't think so. That'd be one less person managing boards, codes and permissions. One less person attempting to get the website back online in case of hacking or server issues, and so on...
If this is such a critical issue, it begs the question why Goober would choose to instead drag another FS2 modder to court rather then preventing the site outage.
WTF that's completely unrelated. :confused: Also Goob isnt' the only Admin here.
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Also Goob isnt' the only Admin here.
Exactly! The website doesn't stand or fall by Gooby having an admin status.
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It never ceases to amaze me how some people will condemn those who call out toxic behavior as though the drama is their fault, rather than the fault of those who engaged in that toxic behavior in the first place.
I'm strongly against toxic behavior in any endeavor of my life.
The type of toxic behavior you're referring to has occurred, however, on two boards of this website that barely have any importance when it comes to the true purpose of the website itself. GD and PD are not HLP.
Also Goob isnt' the only Admin here.
Exactly!
[...] That'd be one less person managing boards, codes and permissions. One less person attempting to get the website back online in case of hacking or server issues, and so on...
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Also Goob isnt' the only Admin here.
Exactly! The website doesn't stand or fall by Gooby having an admin status.
I think he just was the guy who communicated the issue on Discord. AFAIK he hasn't got physical access to the server (somebody else has) so it's not in his scope.
Also, that happened like 2 weeks before the thing in PolDisc.
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This is correct, but that's a different thing between having talent at modding (elseway MJN would obv be admin) and doing technical stuff. Goober happens to be a programmer, what is necessary (to my understanding) to operate the forum as well as contributing to the SCP. Hence being Admin is not highest form of saying "you're the best dude EVA!!" or being popular, but that you can operate a forum technically; what Goob has been doing since... way before I came here first over 12 years ago.
I would not be an admin for the same reason that I'm not anything beyond a mod of the projects I lead... because I'm an asshole. At least I don't threaten dubious legal action over the interwebs and then delete entire arguments to censor it later. *shrug*
IMO, admins should rarely be moderating. Global mods should be moderating because they actually have to be good at it to get the job. Admins, with a handful of exceptions, just have to know how to do website stuff to get the most site access possible. HLP has a blurred line on this.
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I'm waiting to see the official response before I start posting hard again but I'm hoping this is a helpful clarification — I have no interest in "cancelling" Goober. I don't really mind if he continues to contribute to the SCP or modding efforts or even helps out on the server backend if he's behaving himself like the rest of us. My position is simply that his egregious misbehaviour has disqualified him from leadership, not participation.
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Also Goob isnt' the only Admin here.
While this is true, as I'm sure many if not all of you are aware - some of us are less active these days.
Incidentally, hello everyone!
Let me preface by saying I do understand the frustration and what's gone on lately and the time it's taken to form a response.
I've been made aware of what's taken place and would like to add my voice to Axem's in reassuring you that albeit behind closed doors - we are looking at how to move forward.
I don't want to see HLP fall apart. I don't want to see anyone wronged or feel wronged in this and ideally I'd love for all of you to get along. This site was founded out of a "love for the game" and while I realise politics is a matter of great importance, this site is not - first and foremost - a politics site.
As for *why* this hasn't been a public debate - few matters of running a forum ever are. Everyone would have their opinion, it'd take forever to get anything done and you'd almost never see any agreement on a course of action. Some kind of kangeroo court would simply not work.
Let me finish by echoing Axem again that something more will be said on this soon, it is being taken seriously and we really would welcome your patience while this process plays out. Ultimately *something* will be said.
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behold, the consequence of political debates and allowing places to debate politics in the year of our lord 2020; emotions run hot, feelings get butthurt, and nothing of value was gained
is there a button where i dont have to see this thread
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I'm strongly against toxic behavior in any endeavor of my life.
The type of toxic behavior you're referring to has occurred, however, on two boards of this website that barely have any importance when it comes to the true purpose of the website itself. GD and PD are not HLP.
But you're making excuses for toxic behavior when it occurs somewhere you don't care about. Which is to say, you're ok with toxic behavior as long as it doesn't affect you.
Goober losing admin status and moderator powers will affect the purpose of this board far less than him taking legal action against Mjn or The_E. Strangely, Goober had no issue threatening them with that. Clearly, he doesn't care about the SCP as much as you do.
> is there a button where i dont have to see this thread
Yeah, the back button.
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I’m a (nonpracticing) lawyer, and I know the legal definition of defamation (Which I’ll post more on later; I’m at work right now), but if Goober was threatening to sue for defamation just because he got insulted on a web forum, then any competent lawyer would tell Goober that he would not have a case. I’ll have to do more research on everything that happened here, but threats from Goober to sue over this seem like only so much hot air. Not to mention that any such suit Goober raises on this would likely be completely frivolous. Courts don’t take kindly to frivolous lawsuits.
More later.
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Of course it was nonsense, and it's the first thing I said to him after he made the threat. Doesn't change the fact that the threat was made, and the thread deleted because Goober just couldn't stand the insult to his pride.
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This is correct, but that's a different thing between having talent at modding (elseway MJN would obv be admin) and doing technical stuff. Goober happens to be a programmer, what is necessary (to my understanding) to operate the forum as well as contributing to the SCP. Hence being Admin is not highest form of saying "you're the best dude EVA!!" or being popular, but that you can operate a forum technically; what Goob has been doing since... way before I came here first over 12 years ago.
I would not be an admin for the same reason that I'm not anything beyond a mod of the projects I lead... because I'm an asshole. At least I don't threaten dubious legal action over the interwebs and then delete entire arguments to censor it later. *shrug*
IMO, admins should rarely be moderating. Global mods should be moderating because they actually have to be good at it to get the job. Admins, with a handful of exceptions, just have to know how to do website stuff to get the most site access possible. HLP has a blurred line on this.
I think HLP has a rather high share of Admins rarely talking, atleast from what I can see. Goober and Axem are to a lesser degree Kara are the only ones talking frequently; however I don't know many other sites that I could compare them with.
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is there a button where i dont have to see this thread
If you replace gooby as admin you can delete it :p
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I'm strongly against toxic behavior in any endeavor of my life.
The type of toxic behavior you're referring to has occurred, however, on two boards of this website that barely have any importance when it comes to the true purpose of the website itself. GD and PD are not HLP.
But you're making excuses for toxic behavior when it occurs somewhere you don't care about. Which is to say, you're ok with toxic behavior as long as it doesn't affect you.
Goober losing admin status and moderator powers will affect the purpose of this board far less than him taking legal action against Mjn or The_E. Strangely, Goober had no issue threatening them with that. Clearly, he doesn't care about the SCP as much as you do.
Not really.
What I'm saying is that the nature of this behavior, A.K.A. the circumstances of its occurrence, are such that any action taken to prevent them from happening again should not affect FreeSpace modding. As a matter of fact I believe that all of the drama happening in GD/PD should be treated differently compared to drama happening elsewhere.
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It never ceases to amaze me how some people will condemn those who call out toxic behavior as though the drama is their fault, rather than the fault of those who engaged in that toxic behavior in the first place.
I'm strongly against toxic behavior in any endeavor of my life.
The type of toxic behavior you're referring to has occurred, however, on two boards of this website that barely have any importance when it comes to the true purpose of the website itself. GD and PD are not HLP.
I'm sympathetic to the notion that what happens in poldisc shouldn't neccisarely affect other parts of the website, and I think that if HLP has issues with moderation there it should consider if this aspect of the website is even worth having.
But if you subscribe to the notion that what happens in Poldisc should stay in Poldisc, then Goober threatening to take what happens in Poldisc into court is a complete violation of that policy.
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It doesn't really matter if you're a fan of mild or strong moderation: Goober's moderation is a massive overreach by anyone's standards, the likes of which HLP hasn't even come close to seeing.
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Let me preface this by saying I haven’t seen any of the discussions this thread relates to, so I don’t have a valid opinion on it.
But it seems to me that having a political discussion board on what I am assuming is supposed to be an a-political video game modding site is inherently risky. This is especially so in the current political climate which has become extremely partisan and polarised seemingly throughout the western world. In short, it’s asking for trouble.
If PD didn’t exist, this whole sorry situation probably wouldn’t have happened in the first place. Perhaps we should simply do away with PD completely and remove the risk of political disagreements spilling out and affecting HLP as a whole? If people want to debate politics there are countless other online places to do so, places which are set up to be about politics first and foremost.
Genuine question - is HLP supposed to be a-political? (Outside of PD obviously) It appears to be in practice, but is this a formal policy, and if so, has this been formally stated anywhere? If not, I suggest we should do so ASAP, then make sure it is placed somewhere prominent. This is what I did with my website since I didn't want the added hassle of having to deal with the fallout from member's online political arguments.
Just my two cents. I'll shut up now.
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Hey folks. Just to reiterate, there is a very active discussion among staff underway at the moment on this issue and we have now settled on negotiated terms. A public statement is coming once the rest of the staff have had a chance to look over the draft text. Thanks for bearing with us. I know *exactly* how frustrating it can be waiting for a decision from other people on a matter of consequence, and we have been working at this as quickly as personal schedules have allowed.
You will likely see a public post later today.
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Hey folks. Just to reiterate, there is a very active discussion among staff underway at the moment on this issue and we have now settled on negotiated terms. A public statement is coming once the rest of the staff have had a chance to look over the draft text. Thanks for bearing with us. I know *exactly* how frustrating it can be waiting for a decision from other people on a matter of consequence, and we have been working at this as quickly as personal schedules have allowed.
You will likely see a public post later today.
My main concern is that goober's actions and opinions throughout the years have caused members to quit because of the position that he holds. Having a person with "administrator" on every one of their posts who goes around threatening to sue users cannot be good for HLP.
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My main concern is that goober's actions and opinions throughout the years have caused members to quit because of the position that he holds. Having a person with "administrator" on every one of their posts who goes around threatening to sue users cannot be good for HLP.
Do you have any evidence for that? I don't remember anybody quitting and saying "I'm not going to HLP anymore because I don't like the Admin there", also again the HLP staff mostly consists of left-wing people so I don't get where that should be an issue.
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Uh, there was that one time where he engaged in a "women should stay home and reproduce" discussion in some Freespace related topic, which resulted in a certain Ryan leaving the forum. Can't remember which topic it was, though.
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Ah yeah I remember that one; that gender-ratio in FS slapfight. That was a pretty singular case though (atleast in terms of FS discussion), with weird arguments on both sides. But aside that one loosing just it, nobody has left HLP-modding bc of some political argument.
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Let me just start by saying that I appreciate genuine time and care dedicated to making these kind of decisions - as the saying goes "No one ever heard of sensible sloth or haste."
That said...
1. An administrator threatening a member/members of the community they have taken the responisibility to help organize is a breach of trust - and considering the access they have to whatever little of personal information is kept in the user databse should result in stern sanction on a matter of principle, in my opinion.
2. Speculation as to the motive(s) for the actions of absent people is of low utility - its a rabbit hole of projecting your own wishes.
3. Take it from someone who can lay claim to be in a societal minority: "being apolitical" is a luxury not everyone gets to afford; Most of the all that people who use this idea are saying by that is they don't expect to be harmed from a position of authority. Even if the authorities are obligated to protect you de jure, the conciousness that your standing in society is a matter of authoritative approval, therefor political, can and will influence your life.
3a. Back when the decision was made to establish PolDisc I didn't speak up against the form it has taken (for reasons I don't feel obligated to share) and I've settled on modus vivendi with how that has influenced the way I work on HLP. After all, "living in their world" is the undeniable reality of adult life.
3b. I don't frequent PolDisc mostly because I rarely have the time to dedicate to discussions of low utility - the members of HLP I know I share a political discision making process with can be counted on one hand. And while occasionally something unknown to me comes to my attention via avenues like PolDisc, these instances are far and few between.
3c. Not having a place dedicated to "political discussions" is of no utility either, actually it helps a great deal to work out how to structure your working relationships, e.g. who do you ask when it comes to matters of content and how. I found it very high utility to observe some members of community "in the wild" so to say, and it has helped me to identify e.g. some people that I will not working with despite appricating their work to some degree.
Now, what I am saying may be of little utility by itself as you will be seeing increasing less of me in coming year(s) - the whole thing is just a matter of time and energy management, as running around HLP without concrete buisness just seems a poor allocation of my time and effort. I will welcome of the community of HLP as my audience when projects are finished, but for the time being my work proccess my need a little privacy so I can work with contributors of varying comfort levels to public exposure.
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Do you have any evidence for that? I don't remember anybody quitting and saying "I'm not going to HLP anymore because I don't like the Admin there", also again the HLP staff mostly consists of left-wing people so I don't get where that should be an issue.
How about Battuta? I know for a fact (because I speak with him on a regular basis, and I know he's self-banned) that he actively avoids HLP because of people like Goober and the weird stereotypical enlightened centrist attitude that you can disagree with something as long as you don't hurt anyone's feelings or pride doing it. It's ok to defend white supremacy if you're civil about it, but tell a white supremacist to **** off? Oh now you've crossed a line!
Can't even call Goober out for supporting white supremacists because that hurts his precious feelings. Can't remove his status as an admin, because that'll hurt his feelings. What if he ragequits HLP because we hurt his feelings? No, better ****ing accommodate him.
EDIT: oh, Scotty too! And I can't say that it's not one of the reasons I don't visit HLP much anymore.
People who start avoiding this place because of a huge asshole with power don't tend to make a huge deal about it. They just... avoid this place. Goober's admin status is a tacit endorsement of what he does and how he acts, whether or not that's the rest of the admin staff's intention. If he doesn't lose it here, then that's the rest of the staff deciding to present a united front and saying "we stand behind Goober", regardless of what was said behind closed doors.
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Do you have any evidence for that? I don't remember anybody quitting and saying "I'm not going to HLP anymore because I don't like the Admin there", also again the HLP staff mostly consists of left-wing people so I don't get where that should be an issue.
How about Battuta? I know for a fact (because I speak with him on a regular basis, and I know he's self-banned) that he actively avoids HLP because of people like Goober
Well I don't know about Battuta but he left private project servers too and from what I heard a bunch of other social media too. I know he despises Goober though.
Can't even call Goober out for supporting white supremacists because that hurts his precious feelings. Can't remove his status as an admin, because that'll hurt his feelings. What if he ragequits HLP because we hurt his feelings? No, better ****ing accommodate him.
If bringing up this kind of weirdness is all you think PolDisc is useful for it should probably be just as well closed.
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How about Battuta? I know for a fact (because I speak with him on a regular basis, and I know he's self-banned) that he actively avoids HLP because of people like Goober and the weird stereotypical enlightened centrist attitude that you can disagree with something as long as you don't hurt anyone's feelings or pride doing it. It's ok to defend white supremacy if you're civil about it, but tell a white supremacist to **** off? Oh now you've crossed a line!
Can't even call Goober out for supporting white supremacists because that hurts his precious feelings. Can't remove his status as an admin, because that'll hurt his feelings. What if he ragequits HLP because we hurt his feelings? No, better ****ing accommodate him.
EDIT: oh, Scotty too! And I can't say that it's not one of the reasons I don't visit HLP much anymore.
People who start avoiding this place because of a huge asshole with power don't tend to make a huge deal about it. They just... avoid this place. Goober's admin status is a tacit endorsement of what he does and how he acts, whether or not that's the rest of the admin staff's intention. If he doesn't lose it here, then that's the rest of the staff deciding to present a united front and saying "we stand behind Goober", regardless of what was said behind closed doors.
Well I don't know about Battuta but he left private project servers too and from what I heard a bunch of other social media too. I know he despises Goober though.
Goober and I have been at odds on and off for years for a whole lot of reasons... it's why I left FSPort, Scroll, etc. If it weren't for the other fine people here I do enjoy working with (Axem, Nyc, Odd, the BtA guys, and many others over the years) it's likely I wouldn't have stuck around as long.
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Well that's perfectly reasonable - modding should be fun, and nobody wants to work in a team with people they don't like.
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If bringing up this kind of weirdness is all you think PolDisc is useful for it should probably be just as well closed.
This but unironically. What purpose, if any, does PolDisc serve in a freespace modding forum, apart from to incite this sort of drama? Keeping political discussion on the internet sane is hard enough to do in dedicated political discussion spaces, let alone a community dedicated to modding a 20 year old game. We don't need to see modders driven away because of issues solely stemming from moderation of political discussion, we need modders. Nobody is going to go download FS2, download a mod and look for support but stay for the political discussion, and nobody is going to go looking for a place to post their political opinions and look at HLP, see the Trump thread and also discover some nice FS2 mods along the way.
On the topic of Goober: It's true that, without him, Inferno wouldn't have released, as he was the one who gave me the power to revive the project and add testers. I'm not sure what role he played in getting the HLP forums back up and running after the HDD failure, but I would not be surprised if it was a major one. I think he is an important contributor to the HLP community as an administrator. But the behaviour that sparked this complaint is frankly completely unacceptable, and I think if he is to continue in this role of administrator then at the very least the community deserves an apology and genuine assurances that this something like this won't ever happen again.
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Politics affect everyone especially in 2020 where the common decency of wearing a mask is apparently a political statement. People are going to talk about it. At least with a PolDisc board, it keeps it out of the modding forums (most of the time).
EDIT: The realty also is that we don't mod in a vacuum. The people we work with become friends and it's natural to discuss things other than freespace with those people. The Trump thread has been going for over four years with minor drama like this. The problem isn't PolDisc, it's individuals.
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PolDisc exists and will continue to exist as a members-only sub-board to function as a pressure relief value and stop the relatively few of us who are active moderators from constantly having to chase down political discussions that pop up in other places.
No politics rules, especially among old communities with lots of establish members, are extremely difficult to enforce and I, for one, would rather deal with all the **** in one spot.
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I don't think "our mods are inactive, hence we can't enforce rules properly" a good thing in many ways. The forum is by no means exploding with activity (neither in GD nor elsewhere), compared to Discords with hundreds of messages per day it seems rather easy. There's a report button which might be used in that case from the users end; also, you can recruit new mods (mostly for board-limited mods for GD) anytime. Most board moderators are mia or absent for *several years* by now.
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otoh, this moderation issue would have been solved in 5 seconds if the person causing it wasn't an admin. That's less time then it is to determine whether or not a thread is sliding into politicalness.
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Absolutely. There is no question that if someone was under consideration to be a new admin this behaviour would disqualify them in a heartbeat.
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Me checking in on what HLP is up to:
(https://am21.mediaite.com/tms/cnt/uploads/2016/12/giphy.gif)
Generally I'm in agreement with mjn, hoover, and mobius.
I've known Goober since HLP was hosted at 3D Action Planet, and he was a guest at my wedding (in 2014). I consider him a close friend.
I also don't talk politics or religion with him, because I cannot reconcile the guy I know with the stuff he apparently believes. But keeping political discussion on HLP to a dedicated board that I can avoid, helps me maintain that relationship by walling off the toxicity. I consider Goober to be the kind of guy I'm glad to work with during office hours, but since 2015 I've stopped going out to Happy Hour with him.
The contributions Goober has made to the community are immeasurable. He's been producer and editor on FSPort, ST:R, and Scroll, and those are just the ones I've worked with him on. He's also done tireless administration here. But the fact remains that he's unhinged in his personal life - remember that he pushed through the release of Scroll because he thought the world was ending? (https://www.unsealed.org/2016/12/the-great-sign.html)
Where that bleeds into the FS community, we need to be impartial and treat it on a case by case basis. A member threatening legal action against other forum members is out of line, and would merit discipline. Threads that are inflammatory should be locked, and left to decay unless there has been a gross violation of forum rules. Abusing moderator/administrator privileges to delete threads unflattering to the mod/admin is also unacceptable.
I hope that I can continue working with Goober on HLP in the future. I also hope I can continue working with other talented and thoughtful members of this board, and that they all feel welcome and respected. I look forward to what the admins have to say about keeping those both in effect.
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I'm locking this thread now that the official response from the rest of the HLP staff has been posted.
You can move your productive and even-measured discussion there. :)