Hard Light Productions Forums
Site Management => Site Support / Feedback => Topic started by: Phantom Hoover on October 29, 2020, 01:12:08 pm
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Per clear consensus at the time (https://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=90964.0), overruled by admin malpractice, I move that https://wiki.hard-light.net/index.php/GTC_Aeolus be unprotected effective immediately, so that the ancient wiki Dance-a-Lot may continue.
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Seconded.
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Per clear consensus at the time (https://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=90964.0), overruled by admin malpractice, I move that https://wiki.hard-light.net/index.php/GTC_Aeolus be unprotected effective immediately, so that the ancient wiki Dance-a-Lot may continue.
Could you stop bringing up even more drama, like, seriously?
Where's the drama in this?
My drama warning is active.
Is anyone actually willing to edit that Wiki article? Any proposed changes?
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I think the proposed changes are related to flak, and flakking thereof.
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May the Aeolus page please be unprotected so I can add the veteran comment 'little in the middle but she got much flak,' a harmless joke which has become a perfect synecdoche for HLP nerds' willingness to blow things wholly out of proportion.
I am awestruck by how seriously people have taken this Sir Mixalot quite. Just flabbergasted
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May the Aeolus page please be unprotected so I can add the veteran comment 'little in the middle but she got much flak,' a harmless joke which has become a perfect synecdoche for HLP nerds' willingness to blow things wholly out of proportion.
The last time I checked, more or less explicit vulgarities were not allowed as per the Veteran Comments Policy (https://wiki.hard-light.net/index.php/Veteran_Comments_policy). There are many ways to rephrase that and make it look professional.
Also, is that quote based on this song (https://medium.com/@oliviadreschel/baby-got-back-the-sexual-objectification-of-women-and-gender-biases-in-sir-mix-a-lots-baby-got-a215ada85bfa)? :wtf:
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The last time I checked, more or less explicit vulgarities were not allowed as per the Veteran Comments Policy (https://wiki.hard-light.net/index.php/Veteran_Comments_policy). There are many ways to rephrase that in and make it look professional.
There is absolutely nothing explicit or vulgar about the phrase "little in the middle but she got much flak."
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Just lock this dump thread already
This thread may still have a purpose should someone come by and propose tangible changes to that Wiki article. Tangible and relevant. Judging from the replies however, it seems it's going the opposite direction.
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I just want to post my VC jokes :(
I'm all for VC jokes.
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**** Battuta, I think he's on to you. You're trying to demean women by pointing out the Aeolus' flak features, aren't you? That's been your goal for the past 5 years. Bad Battuta. Bad.
sir mix a lot promotes a healthy body image and so should the HLP wiki.
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Okay, so after a little consultation and break from yesterday's nonsense, here's the verdict. Discussing the wiki policy and specifically how and what jokes are acceptable is fair game. Go for it. I've attempted a sort-of-clearish split along those lines, but I probably ended up punting a few comments to the locked side. Rather than screwing around with more post splitting, people can re-post their thoughtful comments in this one.
To be absolutely clear: this discussion needs to be forward looking and about wiki content. Absolutely no slagging of past decisions, rubbing salt in current open wounds, or criticizing individuals, period. Any of that and the post gets punted to the locked thread and the offender gets a formal warning.
For what it's worth, my feelings are that a few harmless minor jokes in the wiki are a net positive, but we certainly don't want every wiki article to suddenly become littered with them. The rest of you who actually routinely contribute to the wiki can sort this out, however.
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For what it's worth, my feelings are that a few harmless minor jokes in the wiki are a net positive, but we certainly don't want every wiki article to suddenly become littered with them. The rest of you who actually routinely contribute to the wiki can sort this out, however.
This is pretty close to my own thoughts on the matter. It might be worth a general rule that if a comment is more entertaining than informative on uses of the ship, it should be shuffled to the bottom of the veteran comments to reduce any possible negative impact to the utility of that section, and it shouldn't be mislead either.
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IT IS DONE
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Hey, it's a singular pun in a not too consistent section that suggests not full accuracy by its own title. Surely it won't hurt to have some sideline humor in a community run Wiki.
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I think that "The Aeolus has a narrow structural spar for a midsection, and a large number of flak guns." is appropriate, but not "Little in the middle, but she got much flak"
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You should edit out then ;7
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My main beef is that it doesn't seem to be covered by the Veteran Comments policy (https://wiki.hard-light.net/index.php/Veteran_Comments_policy). However, that policy might be dated considering it was put into place 12 years ago under an administration that got nuked a few days ago. Does that require an update, and if so, what should be added to/removed from it? There's also the option of deleting the policy altogether, but that would run the risk of the VC sections (slowly) going back to what they used to be before the policy was implemented.
Is there a "better" way to place the mixalot, like a random quote at the top of the page, or is it intentional to hide it within the other VCs? Would it be even better if it was placed as an image tooltip, like what I've done to the banner on this article (https://wiki.hard-light.net/index.php/Just_Another_Day_Collector%27s_Edition), or would that be missing the joke entirely (not to mention that virtually no one using a touchscreen will ever see it)?
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You should edit out then ;7
It is done.
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IT IS HAPPENING AGAIN
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Maybe we should just make this a feature of the page.
Forever oscillating between silly and serious. Never knowing what you'll find when you navigate to it.
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My main beef is that it doesn't seem to be covered by the Veteran Comments policy (https://wiki.hard-light.net/index.php/Veteran_Comments_policy). However, that policy might be dated considering it was put into place 12 years ago under an administration that got nuked a few days ago. Does that require an update, and if so, what should be added to/removed from it? There's also the option of deleting the policy altogether, but that would run the risk of the VC sections (slowly) going back to what they used to be before the policy was implemented.
Is there a "better" way to place the mixalot, like a random quote at the top of the page, or is it intentional to hide it within the other VCs? Would it be even better if it was placed as an image tooltip, like what I've done to the banner on this article (https://wiki.hard-light.net/index.php/Just_Another_Day_Collector%27s_Edition), or would that be missing the joke entirely (not to mention that virtually no one using a touchscreen will ever see it)?
Policies on Veteran Comments should be pretty much the same regardless of the administrators who enforce them.
And just my two cents, even though the edit which has been proposed in this thread points to a joke which is easy to understand for the "broader public", I'd rather not fill the Wiki with jokes and funny references to stuff which can't be understood by those who don't live in countries other than the USA, UK, Australia, etc. This is an international community with players living literally all over the world except for Antarctica, so I'd still favor a form of "international English (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_English)". Too many funny quotes and references to stuff such as TV shows, which by definition aren't as "international" as the English language itself, may make someone feel estranged from the environment.
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Policies on Veteran Comments should be pretty much the same regardless of the administrators who enforce them.
Correct, but it's not up to us, the regular users, to enforce those policies. We can follow them to the best of our ability, but we have no authority to force it on other people, even if they don't really care for it, and it's us, not the administrators, who make up the bulk of contributions to the Wiki.
If a policy cannot be consistently enforced, or will not be enforced, then it fails as a policy regardless of the reason, and it should probably be changed or removed to adapt to the shortcoming.
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You're right, but it's tied to the second point I made in my previous post. If a Veteran Comment ended up like this:
GTVA Colossus
<insert funny reference to Saturday Night Live, written by an American player>
<insert funny quote from a BBC Two comedy actor, written by a British player>
<insert quote from Fox Comedy, written by an Australian player>
It'd derail quite a lot from the "International English" environment a community such as HLP should maintain. The "previous" policy, which is still valid, at least somehow prevented this from happening and required all VCs to be rather professional.
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I merged the two comments together so they both can be there at the same time. Battuta's edit comment (explaining the reference) was added into parenthesis and with a smaller font.
Can we lay this to rest finally? If this launches an avalanche of silly commentary and unknown references to the non-English-native readership, we can restart this debate. We can add "You can add literary references to your commentary as long as you add the reference and provide a proper explaination why it is relevant to the Veteran Comments section" to the policy if that helps. Does this sound good to you guys?
(By the way, I didn't get this reference until I saw Battuta's edit comment)
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For the record, I addressed the issue for the genuine reasons stated above. It has absolutely nothing to do with the previous admins, really.
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HLP has far too much Policy for the size and activity of the community. We’d be fine with just informal social consensus on issues like ‘is the pun situation in veteran comments out of hand’ but people for some reason think it needs to be resolved with legislation and moderator jurisprudence.
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It would be a matter of common sense under regular circumstances, and no rules would be required; this is an international community, therefore its "official" content has to take this into account.
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PH: You may be right in regards to the Wiki. You even have to request an account from an admin if you want to edit, which surely keeps well-meaning editors from editing. It's a shame, but if you remember the trouble we've had with bots spamming all across the Wiki recently, you understand why it's needed. As for HLP in general, including General and Political Discussion, I'm not sure, but it's not my area, so you need to ask someone else.
It doesn't hurt to have written rules as long as editors remember they are not set in stone, and some exceptions are permitted. Of course, it leaves room for subjectivity, but it's ultimately better than religiosly following the rules and reverting otherwise useful commentary because it's not 100% in line with them.
[EDIT]Also, we don't have guidelines for writing campaign/walkthrough/fiction articles, because the has not been a reason for them, so it's good. The Vet Comment policy is a different matter. Personal anecdote: I had to re-read the policy to understand why my "The Anubis is the TIE Fighter of FreeSpace"-kind of comment had to be edited out, so it's helpful for have it.
Mobius: I tried to address that, hence the suggestion to require people add references if they think their additions are not understandable for everyone.
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As a citizen of Eastern Europe, up until yesterday when this topic was addressed, my reaction was something in between "I don't understand what that means and it isn't important in any way for me to care" and "oh, so I guess someone made a pun I here, that's fine". When I learned what's the pun about, I snickered for the shortest of moments and moved along with my life and Freespace related activities. Is it too hard to do the same?
If you're arguing that having a singular pun hidden at the end of the notably misleading and opinionated section is bringing some sort of harm to the community as a whole, I would respond with arguing that yet another trashcan fire topic taking place in a very delicate time for the community is harming the community even more, vastly more. Just let Batutta have his fun!
That said, if such activities have noticeably gotten out of control, I think it'd be a reason for immediate moderating action. But due to the fact that this pun was there for really long and no such thing happened, I think it's reasonable to assume that it won't cause any problems in the future.
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I understand **** about it, but I guess it's a way for some people to vent. Okay, let is stay for a week or two, as some lelz newer hurt a man, but plz remove it after a while. Wiki is not proper environment for this kind of content.
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The ritual edit war over that line is the real treasure of HLP culture so i strongly support you editing it out, and then battuta’s next edit to put it back, et cetera
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No offense to anyone but I think the understandability of a Veteran Comment to all humans with a basic knowledge of English and FreeSpace lore should take precedence over the will to inject some funny quote most people will not understand.
Please note that we're talking about the Veteran Comments, only - people who want to say something funny about any given ship have plenty of room for that in other scenarios. Campaigns, Discord channels, forum posts, and so on are all circumstances where funny comments may be acceptable. Nobody is asking for a total ban on "fun".
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The ritual edit war over that line is the real treasure of HLP culture so i strongly support you editing it out, and then battuta’s next edit to put it back, et cetera
I hope you're being sarcastic.
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I'm afraid he's not. :(
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No offense to anyone but I think the understandability of a Veteran Comment to all humans with a basic knowledge of English and FreeSpace lore should take precedence over the will to inject some funny quote most people will not understand.
That's why I added the explanation to the reference.
Nobody is asking for a total ban on "fun".
Did anyone suggest this?
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Nobody is asking for a total ban on "fun".
Did anyone suggest this?
Well, if you take a look at some of the posts written on this thread, it seems that asking for VCs to be professional and subject to well-defined policies may be considered the "equivalent" of a censorship on fun.
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This is a wiki about a game. A niche game at that.
Let me ask you a question, Mobius: What makes you think that Veteran Comments are vital sources of information that must be kept factual and wiki-neutral?
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Mobius: I think we misunderstand each other. Since you added that sentence after arguing that Discord/the forum are better places for that, I assumed you wanted to make it clear you don't want censorship on "ban on fun" there.
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Let me ask you a question, Mobius: What makes you think that Veteran Comments are vital sources of information that must be kept factual and wiki-neutral?
I do read Veteran Comments on ships I'm not familiar with, and that definition includes many user-made ships which got released in the past few years. I rely on these comments to find out about each ship's peculiarities, mostly because there's stuff like blind spots and reported collision issues which can't be determined by simply reading table entries.
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okay, now, next question: What harm does it do when, amid this information (which is often specific to a ship's appearance in a single mod), there is an occasional joke that you don't get?
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It's not useful, it doesn't add anything to the VC section of that page, it serves no real purpose, I don't see why it should be added in the first place, etc., should I carry on?
Now, let me ask one question: do you at least realize that people occasionally use the Wiki for its intended purpose, which is learning information concerning the official and the unofficial FreeSpace universe? Are you somehow convinced it's a corner where people can do whatever they want, and kind of mess up with the main purpose of a Wiki?
EDIT: by the way, TopAce's edits on the GTC Aeolus' article are being undone back and forth. Someone may find this "game of edits" funny, I don't think it is.
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Now, let me ask one question: do you at least realize that people occasionally use the Wiki for its intended purpose, which is learning information concerning the official and the unofficial FreeSpace universe? Are you somehow convinced it's a corner where people can do whatever they want, and kind of mess up with the main purpose of a Wiki?
Oh, I do realize that completely.
However, I also realize that allowing the presence of some jokes does not stand in the way of that.
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No offense to anyone but I think the understandability of a Veteran Comment to all humans with a basic knowledge of English and FreeSpace lore should take precedence over the will to inject some funny quote most people will not understand.
It might be worth a general rule that if a comment is more entertaining than informative on uses of the ship, it should be shuffled to the bottom of the veteran comments to reduce any possible negative impact to the utility of that section, and it shouldn't be mislead either.
Currently the veteran comments for the Aeolus are 680 words long, 17 of which are joke and all the way at the bottom. If someone is reading them to research the uses and characteristics of the ship this should not be a noteworthy impediment, unless reading references they don't get or wordplay they don't appreciate makes their entire brain lock up.
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You could argue that "Little in the middle but she's got much flak" is a good way of remembering the properties of that particular ship.
So the comment is actually useful.
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Great! Battuta has just removed the explanatory remarks. Apparently, he's not open to compromises.
[EDIT] JSNerds's paraphrased solution, too.
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You should show him who's boss!
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everything is as it should be
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You should show him who's boss!
Then will come allegations of abusing my powers and I don't need that.
I just want this thing over with. I'm with Mobius in regards to making sure everyone understands the reference. Battuta offered his own wording for the explanation in his edit commentary, which he removed now. Copying it (from the non-mainspace to the mainspace) was probably wrong.
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I think the endless edit war is a bit of harmless fun that adds character to the page and the wiki. It's not on every line of every page, it's one line on one page. Some people are taking this way too seriously.
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I just want this thing over with.
Honest question: are you that unhappy with turning a blind eye to this one line on one page?
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I approve of "Little in the middle but she's got much flak".
Do not approve of adding the explanation for the reference, since the above expression in of itself is entirely an accurate description of the Aeolus.
I don't know about whole becky and the strut thing though. It's far less informative and I don't really think it needs to be there. Making the joke longer (or explaining it) takes away from its succinctness which makes it good in the first place. I feel it's bloat that doesn't need to be there, but hey what do I know?
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I have only recently learned that the line refers to a song and I thought the line was amazing before I knew that.
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Having read all the other veteran comments and having found them entirely contradictory, I propose we wipe the entirety of the Veteran Comments and only leave the "little in the middle but she got much flak", which is actually the most accurate line in the entire section.
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Like seriously all these VCs are awful
They're all talking about the dizzying flak array
yet the cruiser is outmatched by RockEye turret sniping.
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I just want this thing over with.
Honest question: are you that unhappy with turning a blind eye to this one line on one page?
Considering how much this has dragged on, yes, I'm indifferent to the outcome. I suggested a compromise, and it was rejected. It's obvious Batt won't give up and neither will the opposition.
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Why does it say 'post empty'
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In all seriousness, i have no problem with "little in the middle but she got much flak". I just think the oblique version is funnier, and will probably wait 2 weeks for the situation to calm down and everyone to forget about it before I edit it back in, if I don't forget about it myself. It's a harmless joke on a wiki page.
In not-so-seriousness,"little in the middle but she got much flak" is completely unacceptable and I will fight you to the death over this.