Hard Light Productions Forums
FreeSpace Releases => Asset Releases => Topic started by: 1234567890 on July 15, 2024, 02:20:33 pm
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I was part of the team that worked on the Blackwater Operations project. After two decades of development, I am going to dump it. It's designed to work with Freespace Open 3.6.12. I'd rather keep my contribution anonymous. You can download it from this link: https://www.mediafire.com/file/atx4f1abr33ohvz/BWODump.7z/file (https://www.mediafire.com/file/atx4f1abr33ohvz/BWODump.7z/file)
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Interesting mod - most of the missions look like they run. Surprising amount of models that haven’t been seen before, along with some rather creatively retooled older MVP ships. Too bad it was in development hell for so long it’s well overripe by now.
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Dude. Is this the BWO that people were talking about, like, ten years ago?
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Hmm. Appears to be a dead link......
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Hmm. Appears to be a dead link......
I got it before the link died. Will give it a playthrough, fix any fatal errors(with some help), and put it on Knossos.
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Heya, thanks for this. It's always a bit of a shame to let perfectly good models and content go to waste.
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Sad that this will not be a completed Mod. I'm sure it would have been great and Derelict left me with unanswered questions
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Dude. Is this the BWO that people were talking about, like, ten years ago?
Feels like 20
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Sad that this will not be a completed Mod. I'm sure it would have been great and Derelict left me with unanswered questions
It doesn't really answer questions from Derelict. It goes for it's own themes.
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A lot of these models are pretty awesome, especially Sol's arsenal! Nice work on the Banshee variant, Nyct!
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A lot of these models are pretty awesome, especially Sol's arsenal! Nice work on the Banshee variant, Nyct!
GTF Persephone is Raven's. Most of the new assets are pure excellence and skill of Raven2001.
I never managed to really complete anything for BWO. I started reworking Sol transport ship and had a complete mesh, then personal issues completely overwhelmed me, and I disappeared from HLP. When I returned, BWO was pretty dead, so I completed the transport as independent asset and released as GTT Anteros.
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Here's the campaign order and notes for a campaign file:
Mission File Act
BWO-E1M1 One
BWO-E1M2 One
BWO-E1MX Act One SOC Loop
BWO-E1MX2 Act One SOC Loop
BWO-E1M3 One
BWO-E1M4 One
BWO-E1M5 One
BWO-E1M6 One
BWO-E1M7 One
BWO-E1M8a One
BWO-E1M8b One
BWO-E1M9 One
BWO-E1M10 One
BWO-E1M11 One
BWO-E1M12 One
BWO-E1M13 One
BWO-E1M14 One
BWO-E1M15 One
BWO-E1M16 One
BWO-E1M17 One
BWO-E1M18 One
BWO-E1M19 One
BWO-E1M20 One Destroy GTC Qada- Go to Act 3. GTC Qada jumps go to Act 2
BWO-E2M1 Two NTA Branch
BWO-E2M2 Two NTA Branch
BWO-E2M3 Two NTA Branch
BWO-E2M4 Two NTA Branch
BWO-E2M5 Two NTA Branch
BWO-E2M6 Two NTA Branch
BWO-E2M7 Two NTA Branch
BWO-E2MX Act Two SOC Loop
BWO-E2M8 Two NTA Branch
BWO-E2M9 Two NTA Branch
BWO-E2M10 Two NTA Branch
BWO-E2M11 Two NTA Branch
BWO-E3M1 Three GTVA Branch
BWO-E3M2 Three GTVA Branch
BWO-E3M3 Three GTVA Branch
BWO-E3MX Act Three SOC Loop
BWO-E3M4 Three GTVA Branch BWO-E3M4M is an incorrect older version before IceFire and I reworked the mission
BWO-E3M5 Three GTVA Branch
BWO-E3M6 Three GTVA Branch
BWO-E3M7 Three GTVA Branch
BWO-E3M8 Three GTVA Branch
BWO-E3M9 Three GTVA Branch
BWO-E3M10 Three GTVA Branch
BWO-E3M11 Three GTVA Branch
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Can't find it on Knossos; is it awaiting some work re: campaign file?
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Try updating Knossos - it works for me.
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Regrettably, the first mission crashes to desktop in multiple ways; the furthest I get is about five seconds into the mission itself as I start to lock missiles. Debug log: https://fsnebula.org/log/66a476d2aaca1c2bfa0010c4 Note that the debug build crashes in different ways than the normal build; in normal I can get to the weapon selection screen but in debug I can't.
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We're getting an SVN together to fix the new bugs that've popped up - after the release I had issues where ship selection would crash(but not weapon selection) and the campaign would crash in any mission. Asteroth is working on hunting that bug down as the logs don't give any indication of what's causing it.
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My first attempt it crashed on trying to go to ship selection. The second time I went to weapon selection first and then ship selection from there rather than straight to ship selection from the briefing, and it worked fine and let me pick a Herc 2, only to crash upon attempting to target a turret when locking Trebuchets onto the enemy cruiser. Then I went into the debug build, and running debug it crashes upon any of going to ship selection, weapon selection, or starting the mission.
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Initially mine crashed upon commit with some message about light_rgb? Now simply crashes at ship selection/commit like rest
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Just throwing ideas in here:
- Shouldn't this thread be merged with this (https://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=99347.0) and moved to the main BWO board?
- Now that this mod is released at least two of the board moderators are active and ready to reply to posts, shouldn't the board be de-archived? It's a released project, afterall, whether it's active or not.
- That said, and judging from the comments above, some serious bugfixing can improve this dump and make it fully playable. If it stays in an archived board, it's less noticeable/effective.
- Legacy BWO members can answer questions and provide hints should anyone be willing to fill gaps in the dump.
- A general plot outline and additional details should be added to the FreeSpace Wiki (https://wiki.hard-light.net/index.php/Blackwater_Operations). The current BWO article is abysmal.
- Why not, even a #bwo subchannel on HLP's Discord would be welcome.
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Just throwing ideas in here:
- Shouldn't this thread be merged with this (https://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=99347.0) and moved to the main BWO board?
- Now that this mod is released at least two of the board moderators are active and ready to reply to posts, shouldn't the board be de-archived? It's a released project, afterall, whether it's active or not.
- That said, and judging from the comments above, some serious bugfixing can improve this dump and make it fully playable. If it stays in an archived board, it's less noticeable/effective.
- Legacy BWO members can answer questions and provide hints should anyone be willing to fill gaps in the dump.
- A general plot outline and additional details should be added to the FreeSpace Wiki (https://wiki.hard-light.net/index.php/Blackwater_Operations). The current BWO article is abysmal.
- Why not, even a #bwo subchannel on HLP's Discord would be welcome.
I'm not sure a dump constitutes a release. Sounds like you're wanting to transform this unfinished work into a full release complete with developer support and everything. Is that what we have? It doesn't seem like it.
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I'm not sure a dump constitutes a release. Sounds like you're wanting to transform this unfinished work into a full release complete with developer support and everything. Is that what we have? It doesn't seem like it.
To be fair, after we get the final bugs out, the dump will hopefully have a complete, functional campaign, so it would've evolved from dump to release at that point.
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This could at least warrant a highlight.
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Could someone just re-up the dump please instead of having to wait for someone to mess with it
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Could someone just re-up the dump please instead of having to wait for someone to mess with it
It's on Knossos right now under Blackwater Operations Dump.
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I'm not sure a dump constitutes a release. Sounds like you're wanting to transform this unfinished work into a full release complete with developer support and everything. Is that what we have? It doesn't seem like it.
To be fair, after we get the final bugs out, the dump will hopefully have a complete, functional campaign, so it would've evolved from dump to release at that point.
In addition to that, I would like to point out that BWO is part of the Cold Element continuity and all other projects in CE have been released (Aftermath, Warzone, Derelict, Twilight). New versions of these campaigns even have voice acting, and are fully compatible with the latest FSO builds and MVPs. BWO was the only campaign in CE that got stuck in a development limbo.
I'm not familiar with the community lore behind the choice of having an ad hoc BWO board instead of a full CE portal, but at this point, I don't see why the Blackwater Operations board shouldn't be renamed "Cold Element". Relevant threads related to Derelict, Warzone, Aftermath and Twilight releases/upgrades should be moved there, too.
All these campaigns are part of a single, consistent continuity: let's group them in one place.
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I'm in agreement with MJN here.
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I'm not sure a dump constitutes a release. Sounds like you're wanting to transform this unfinished work into a full release complete with developer support and everything. Is that what we have? It doesn't seem like it.
To be fair, after we get the final bugs out, the dump will hopefully have a complete, functional campaign, so it would've evolved from dump to release at that point.
In addition to that, I would like to point out that BWO is part of the Cold Element continuity and all other projects in CE have been released (Aftermath, Warzone, Derelict, Twilight). New versions of these campaigns even have voice acting, and are fully compatible with the latest FSO builds and MVPs. BWO was the only campaign in CE that got stuck in a development limbo.
I'm not familiar with the community lore behind the choice of having an ad hoc BWO board instead of a full CE portal, but at this point, I don't see why the Blackwater Operations board shouldn't be renamed "Cold Element". Relevant threads related to Derelict, Warzone, Aftermath and Twilight releases/upgrades should be moved there, too.
All these campaigns are part of a single, consistent continuity: let's group them in one place.
Twilight was never part of the CE continuity it was Ace own project that was going to continue in his own project called Babel Effect that was cancelled
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I'm not sure a dump constitutes a release. Sounds like you're wanting to transform this unfinished work into a full release complete with developer support and everything. Is that what we have? It doesn't seem like it.
To be fair, after we get the final bugs out, the dump will hopefully have a complete, functional campaign, so it would've evolved from dump to release at that point.
In addition to that, I would like to point out that BWO is part of the Cold Element continuity and all other projects in CE have been released (Aftermath, Warzone, Derelict, Twilight). New versions of these campaigns even have voice acting, and are fully compatible with the latest FSO builds and MVPs. BWO was the only campaign in CE that got stuck in a development limbo.
I'm not familiar with the community lore behind the choice of having an ad hoc BWO board instead of a full CE portal, but at this point, I don't see why the Blackwater Operations board shouldn't be renamed "Cold Element". Relevant threads related to Derelict, Warzone, Aftermath and Twilight releases/upgrades should be moved there, too.
All these campaigns are part of a single, consistent continuity: let's group them in one place.
Twilight was never part of the CE continuity it was Ace own project that was going to continue in his own project called Babel Effect that was cancelled
Twilight was listed as part of Cold Element per the wiki since 2008: https://wiki.hard-light.net/index.php/Cold_Element (https://wiki.hard-light.net/index.php/Cold_Element)
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I'm not sure a dump constitutes a release. Sounds like you're wanting to transform this unfinished work into a full release complete with developer support and everything. Is that what we have? It doesn't seem like it.
To be fair, after we get the final bugs out, the dump will hopefully have a complete, functional campaign, so it would've evolved from dump to release at that point.
I think there is a big difference between fixing the missions ("functional") and having a "complete campaign". Probably the most accurate statement on BWOs progress was "the missions dont communicate what they're supposed to". Having played and actually worked on BWO like half a decade ago, I remember that a lot of the worldbuilding did not make sense or wasn't coherent, but if I look at Aces explinations regarding the plot in the other thread they were in fact intentional, just that nobody remembered why, say, all of Sol was declared a ragtag army in techroom descriptions when they clearly were pretty strong. Unless you were part of the original (2000s era) dev team a fair ammount of the plot and everything tied to it will not make sense, and will not unless a major edit (either in favor of the original vision or a different one).
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I'm not sure a dump constitutes a release. Sounds like you're wanting to transform this unfinished work into a full release complete with developer support and everything. Is that what we have? It doesn't seem like it.
To be fair, after we get the final bugs out, the dump will hopefully have a complete, functional campaign, so it would've evolved from dump to release at that point.
In addition to that, I would like to point out that BWO is part of the Cold Element continuity and all other projects in CE have been released (Aftermath, Warzone, Derelict, Twilight). New versions of these campaigns even have voice acting, and are fully compatible with the latest FSO builds and MVPs. BWO was the only campaign in CE that got stuck in a development limbo.
I'm not familiar with the community lore behind the choice of having an ad hoc BWO board instead of a full CE portal, but at this point, I don't see why the Blackwater Operations board shouldn't be renamed "Cold Element". Relevant threads related to Derelict, Warzone, Aftermath and Twilight releases/upgrades should be moved there, too.
All these campaigns are part of a single, consistent continuity: let's group them in one place.
Twilight was never part of the CE continuity it was Ace own project that was going to continue in his own project called Babel Effect that was cancelled
Twilight was listed as part of Cold Element per the wiki since 2008: https://wiki.hard-light.net/index.php/Cold_Element (https://wiki.hard-light.net/index.php/Cold_Element)
It wasnt listed on the original website of CE: http://web.archive.org/web/20090604090207/http://ce.hard-light.net/
Also, on the list of Twilight/TBE mods I have from the Twilights webarchive site you can find things like a Vasudan Akrotiri (GVJ Semnai) and a Terran carrier that obviously dont fit into CE. http://web.archive.org/web/20060504122435/http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/babel_effect/plot_ships.htm
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I'm not sure a dump constitutes a release. Sounds like you're wanting to transform this unfinished work into a full release complete with developer support and everything. Is that what we have? It doesn't seem like it.
To be fair, after we get the final bugs out, the dump will hopefully have a complete, functional campaign, so it would've evolved from dump to release at that point.
I think there is a big difference between fixing the missions ("functional") and having a "complete campaign". Probably the most accurate statement on BWOs progress was "the missions dont communicate what they're supposed to". Having played and actually worked on BWO like half a decade ago, I remember that a lot of the worldbuilding did not make sense or wasn't coherent, but if I look at Aces explinations regarding the plot in the other thread they were in fact intentional, just that nobody remembered why, say, all of Sol was declared a ragtag army in techroom descriptions when they clearly were pretty strong. Unless you were part of the original (2000s era) dev team a fair ammount of the plot and everything tied to it will not make sense, and will not unless a major edit (either in favor of the original vision or a different one).
I do support technical fixes for missions and I have provided comments for the campaign file. I do not support dialog rewrites proposed to missions that are being floated as "bug fixes."
I do not support this line of discussion of current community members wanting to rewrite or "remaster" BWO in their own image. Or framing it as making it "complete." Of course there is nothing I can do to stop someone from doing their own version, other than state it does not have my support or consent.
I want to be clear, this leak is a massive breach of community trust. HLP admins having access to a project SVN and FTP in this manner is incredibly problematic.
I think both BD and I are taking the high ground on this, with the "release with critical bug fixes" stance to make the best of this.
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Twilight is part of Cold Element.
Again on SCP ships the design and tech descriptions are intentional. SCP ships are "strong" but are "ragtag" because of resource constraints in the Sol system. That's why they focused on heavy torpedo weapons and heavy armor. Chinese navy vs. US navy.
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It is slightly concerning to me to see BlackDove's reasons for keeping the campaign under wraps (https://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=99347.msg1920099#msg1920099) just immeadiately manifest themselves in public now that a dump is available.
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I want to be clear, this leak is a massive breach of community trust. HLP admins having access to a project SVN and FTP in this manner is incredibly problematic.
... Hold up. That's a pretty big deal
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I want to be clear, this leak is a massive breach of community trust. HLP admins having access to a project SVN and FTP in this manner is incredibly problematic.
... Hold up. That's a pretty big deal
Correct. This should be a red flag.
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I do support technical fixes for missions and I have provided comments for the campaign file. I do not support dialog rewrites proposed to missions that are being floated as "bug fixes."
I do not support this line of discussion of current community members wanting to rewrite or "remaster" BWO in their own image. Or framing it as making it "complete." Of course there is nothing I can do to stop someone from doing their own version, other than state it does not have my support or consent.
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Again on SCP ships the design and tech descriptions are intentional. SCP ships are "strong" but are "ragtag" because of resource constraints in the Sol system. That's why they focused on heavy torpedo weapons and heavy armor. Chinese navy vs. US navy.
Yes, per above, it was what I'd consider "vision does not translate well into player experience". Even taking propaganda in techroom entries into account, dismissing a cruiser of which 2 or 3 can wipe an Orion as "weak" and calling every advanced fighter trashy will lead to disastrous casaulties. The impression I got was ironically that the project had been through so many hands that the original vision (such as regarding Sols capabilities) was lost somewhere in development hell, when it was actually just the opposite - yet, there was nobody left to explain it, nor anything to hint about it in-game (well, IIRC) so I'd presume that many people could come to the same conclusion that it was just a lack of consistency.
Altering the vision and calling it "bug fixes" is unfair though. There are different takes on a story, and how to tell it. What I remember explicetly was that "improve writing and dialog" was part of the goal list when I was working on it... 4 years ago? But the extent was rather vaguely defined.
Regarding the SCP ships themselves as well as their MagLev weapons, I think they're an amazing take on a FS2.5 Sol fleet, and even with many other Sol-war campaigns around I think BWO had the best approach. Dont think I asked it before, but who made the SCP designs/weapons back then, Dark? Or were they based on things :v-old: revealed what they would have done in that FS2.5 expansion?
Twilight is part of Cold Element.
Wasn't The Babel Effect a sequel to Twilight? I'm wondering because the description on the TBE-website I linked said something of 6 GVJ Semnai class juggernauts what doesnt really fit into BWO/CE continuity that was about mass-producing Golgothas AFAIK
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I think there is a big difference between fixing the missions ("functional") and having a "complete campaign". Probably the most accurate statement on BWOs progress was "the missions dont communicate what they're supposed to". Having played and actually worked on BWO like half a decade ago, I remember that a lot of the worldbuilding did not make sense or wasn't coherent, but if I look at Aces explinations regarding the plot in the other thread they were in fact intentional, just that nobody remembered why, say, all of Sol was declared a ragtag army in techroom descriptions when they clearly were pretty strong. Unless you were part of the original (2000s era) dev team a fair ammount of the plot and everything tied to it will not make sense, and will not unless a major edit (either in favor of the original vision or a different one).
Having played through the campaign 3 times now for bug testing (piecemeal, the campaign itself still has enough issues that a proper playthrough from start to finish to both endings isn't doable yet), the story seems sound and cohesive. Incidentally, about 90% of the bugs have been quashed, albeit the Magtorps are definitely gonna need a significant nerf. At least 3, maybe 4 missions that are impossible to complete properly due to how strong they are, even with them having gotten the nerf bat.
I do support technical fixes for missions and I have provided comments for the campaign file. I do not support dialog rewrites proposed to missions that are being floated as "bug fixes."
I do not support this line of discussion of current community members wanting to rewrite or "remaster" BWO in their own image. Or framing it as making it "complete." Of course there is nothing I can do to stop someone from doing their own version, other than state it does not have my support or consent.
As the guy who snagged the copy, there's been zero dialog rewrites and frankly it's not worth the effort to "remaster" given so much as sneezing on the campaign seems to break it. So far as "complete" goes, you gave the mission list, and the campaign follows it to the letter. The fully debugged release should be exactly as was described - every mission should be fully playable, and people will be able to play the campaign from start to finish. Frankly the only thing I've talked with Nelson about doing that wouldn't follow the original mod would be taking a page out of Scrolls and having a second campaign set up at the split, so players don't have to replay the campaign from start to finish just to play the other path for the third act. Again, if the worry is that BWO's story, writing, missions, or campaign are going to somehow be altered in any way that does not involve making them work as intended, then there's no need to worry, since that isn't happening.
I want to be clear, this leak is a massive breach of community trust. HLP admins having access to a project SVN and FTP in this manner is incredibly problematic.
I'm a little confused on this - what HLP admin has access to the BWO SVN? The only other people who have access to the SVN being used to bugfix are Nelson (handling the bug fixing), Goober (made the SVN after I asked so updates to the mod can be done more easily), and possibly Colt (made a fix for the SMB Medusa, but can't remember if it was included by Nelson in the SVN). I don't believe any of them are current admins (I know Goober used to be one, but he's just staff on keeping the FSU stuff going now iirc). I'm not exactly sure how this can be "problematic" when to my knowledge no one actively working on bugfixing has even seen the original BWO SVN - I don't even know if there is or was one at any point. I just snagged the Mediafire copy.
I think both BD and I are taking the high ground on this, with the "release with critical bug fixes" stance to make the best of this.
I mean, that's basically been the plan since the initial dump turned out to be more bug-ridden than a log full of termites. I don't get why people are either being concerned over the plot being changed (it won't be) or, frankly, why they'd think the plot would be changed given how long it's been (which makes no sense). It really wouldn't be worth trying to change the story of a twenty-year old basically complete mod when there are other campaigns in active development and the only thing BWO needs is significant bug fixing to work with the current FSO and MVP versions. Again, there's no reason to be concerned that the story, plot, lore, missions, or campaign will be changed in any way from what they were intended to be, if for no other reason than it wouldn't be worth the effort.
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Considering IceFire handed the project to BlackDove, and BlackDove was clear about preserving plot points, I must view that statement on rewrites to be factually incorrect.
The specifics of SVN or a Mediafire leak from another source is irrelevant. The key point is the breach of community trust by the leak and other statements are merely to obscure that simple truth.
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A sincere question: if the mod hadn't been leaked by a former team member, and others and I weren't working to get the mod functional to a point where it could be enjoyed as it was, per you, explicitly intended, would anyone from the BWO team have finished the mod at some indeterminate point in the future and released it to the public? I'm genuinely curious because both answers to that raise other questions that are admittedly a bit confusing insofar as the concern regarding the bugfixed campaign.
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I don't think they would, if they could it wouldn't have been dumped.
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Blackdove raised the issues regarding this dump already.
Again this is a breach of trust and this alleged former team member made no effort to reach out to other active community members who were involved with BWO to address the very valid concerns raised about releasing it versus letting it it.
If the campaign is in such a sorry state, why permit this leak at all? Let it die? Unless of course the actual reason are tied to the concerns Blackdove raised.
There are very valid reasons to be concerned 1) on the very fact this leak happened and 2) the rationale behind this leak
Actually making an effort to reach out to the different former team members and being clear "this was a warts and all data dump" is a bare minimum.
To hammer home how problematic this issue is: members of the Diaspora team worked for BtRL. We have FS Open assets for Galactica and the Viper MK2. We have not leaked it because although some of those assets were done by Omni and other arists as well he raised concerns, like Blackdove, about them being released in the "wild."
How is this different than "a former BtrL member" deciding to violate that trust?
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The breach in trust is definitely a thing, but I roll my eyes at the subtle finger pointing to the HLP admins. I have serious doubts they worked together to perform some kind of project coup. That's nonsense.
The fact that the dump was posted by an account made months before the only post by the account shows forethought and probably some second guessing at times. The way it was dumped was pretty cowardly, though, if you ask me.
Finally, I'm thoroughly against any sort of BWO remaster. The cats out of the bag at this point, but anything short of fixing CTDs is making some version of BWO that is not actually BWO. The version everyone wants doesn't exist and no amount of polish or tweaks on the dump will make it that. People need to be OK with it being a dump and not a release. Ever.
And to Fusion's question, I don't think it matters if the team would have finished it and released it or not. It's their work, not the community's. I think they should have decided years ago what the plan was and been more clear about that plan. If they weren't going to finish it, then dumping the assets to respect all of the original team member's work would have been a good decision. Or to finish it in some basic form would be been cool for everyone. The worst decision was the non-decision of constant limbo and that's probably why this person finally got fed up and dumped it in the first place.
But again, anything beyond fixing obvious crashes makes this not BWO. This is, and always will be, a dump. Not a release. Please, I beg of everyone out of respect for the original authors, do not treat it like a release that can be finished or remastered.
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BWO dump was one of the most random thing i have seen in a long time and it was made in a wrong way without asking whole team what they think about it
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tl;dr
mod becomes a community wide meme, symbol for unfinishedness
internal bad faith actors / ego trips intentionally cockblock mod from releasing anything
someone becomes sad about so much work going to waste, decides 'fine i'll do it myself' like some vigilantee, dump goes live
drama
wishing a successful session of stitching it together, intrigued to play some good ol classic mod once again
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And to Fusion's question, I don't think it matters if the team would have finished it and released it or not. It's their work, not the community's. I think they should have decided years ago what the plan was and been more clear about that plan. If they weren't going to finish it, then dumping the assets to respect all of the original team member's work would have been a good decision. Or to finish it in some basic form would be been cool for everyone. The worst decision was the non-decision of constant limbo and that's probably why this person finally got fed up and dumped it in the first place.
But again, anything beyond fixing obvious crashes makes this not BWO. This is, and always will be, a dump. Not a release. Please, I beg of everyone out of respect for the original authors, do not treat it like a release that can be finished or remastered.
I want to make sure I'm understanding your position correctly.
You're saying something like:
"The BWO team may have made a number of poor design and administrative decisions over the years that prevented an actual release of BWO. It's also a shame they seem to want it to remain in perpetual limbo when there are apparently those who want to push it over the finish line or at least release the assets. However, not releasing assets or at least a playable rough draft campaign at FS2 retail level...that is their right to do so."
Is that kind of what you're saying? (I'm not criticizing that particular opinion in this post, I just want to be sure I'm understanding you correctly)