Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Su-tehp on September 12, 2002, 03:15:16 am
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I'm only a writer...and a law student. I know next to nothing about computer programming, cb animations, ship or weapon modding...hell, I can only use FRED when I'm under duress!
But enough of my shortcomings... I'm here to ask what sort of expertise is needed to make a good campaign. I need a list of what sort of work, like FREDding, cb animation, etc. is done on other campaigns and how such work is done.
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Skills needed for a great campaign.
Great story writing skills
Good Fred skills
That's it. Everything else is optional. If you can think of a good story and turn that story into missions that are fun to play that's all you need.
If you have the skill to add new ships, new cb_ani's etc that's a good addition to the campaign but you can make a great campaign with the default ships and animations.
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Just a tip. If you do make a campaign with the default ships, make sure the campaign takes place around the 2nd Shivan war, not suring the great war, or 30 years after the second great war. Get to work, I can't wait to play whatever you're cooking up!
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Not that it was made into a campaign, but I'd higly recommend looking over Ascraeus' mission outlines - with special attention paid to the way he emphasizes the atmosphere of each mission through nebula colors and music, and the pilot chatter revealing them to be more than just dumb AI's, but actual people with actual fears, opinions, and hatreds.
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Great idea sandwich but where's the link?
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i would probably say the story is most important. Let the AI's tell it. The missions should revolve around the story, not the other way around. I've played some campaigns where although the mission was neat, and thew circumstances were nifty, the mission in question did nothing to further the story. Even a nifty or neato scenario for a few missions could be tangential, but it should further the story you are telling. Even if you don't realize it until 7 missions after. A good story is the best. Then like Kar said, good fredding. That's both layers of your cake, the rest is just icing.
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Yeah, I know the story is the most important element; I learned that during my time at FRED Zone. I spent alot of time culling missions from possible validation because they weren't in line with the Freespace story (and I like to consider myself an expert on that since I make it a point to remeber all the little details about the events of both FS1 and FS2).
I've managed to find good FREDders (and I may yet recruit more if they are needed in the future), so both of the two most important aspects of my campaign (story and FRED) are covered.
Sandwich makes a good point about Ascraeus' mission outlines: they are VERY detailed and include stuff like mission maps, comm chatter, and even ship and weapon loadouts. I'm taking a page from Ascraeus' book and trying to make my mission outlines as detailed as this. Right now, I'm still writing the overall story script of "Devil and the Deep Blue" and so far I have only a two or three sentence summary of several missions, but as I complete the DatDB story, I'll flesh out the missions a la Ascraeus as I go. So, yeah, ShadowWolf and Sandwich, I understand your advice and I am (and have been) taking it, so you guys don't need to worry on that score.
Oh, since Karajorma wanted the link to Ascraeus' mission outlines, here it is:
http://faculty.concord.edu/manzione/fs3.htm
This is the site for Ascraeus' oft-mentioned "FS2.9" project. No word on when (or whether) it will be completed...
But I know that the story and FRED are the essential components; those are taken care of. To use ShadowWolf's metaphor, I have the cake, I'm just looking for advice on the icing.
So please, continue with your comments.... :nod:
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personally, i would say a creative storyline, intresting ideas for missions, and imaginative use of FRED. Simple things can work in FRED, so long as they are fun.
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i would probably say the story is most important. Let the AI's tell it. The missions should revolve around the story, not the other way around. I've played some campaigns where although the mission was neat, and thew circumstances were nifty, the mission in question did nothing to further the story. Even a nifty or neato scenario for a few missions could be tangential, but it should further the story you are telling. Even if you don't realize it until 7 missions after. A good story is the best. Then like Kar said, good fredding. That's both layers of your cake, the rest is just icing.
I personally would disagree there and think that it is the mission quality that really counts even more so than the story. Story is of course very important, but mission polish is really what sets a campaign apart from most of the others out there. All of the campaigns out there have at least reasonably good plotlines, but many also have poor missions, and this tends to ruin the campaign in my experience. (this is what Derelict suffered from) If you just want a story you could always read fan faction or something, but campaigns are designed to be played. ;)
I find the mission outlines discussed here a very good idea too; for my campaign I am just writing some broken sentences in text files to jot down any ideas I come up with, but if more people were involved I would do something more organized.
btw Su, I have my computer back up again along with my email, so I can now recieve anything you wanted to send me earlier. :)
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I'm not a FREDer, but IMO;
-missions should always try to be as unique as possible... if you have a plain ole defensive mission, then add some new elements in, like protecting an AWACs that is revealing enemy stealth ships, or so on
- if you add new stuff (weapons, ships, et al), make sure it's bloody good, so people actually want to use them. And if you have new ships, try to do stuff that's not been done before.
- Make the story compact... a 100 mission campaign sounds impressive, but you'd probably forget the story midway through and get bored
- Missions that are too long are evil.
- The background, and especially placement of planets and stars, can be very improtant in atmoshpere.
- Missions don;t have to always form an integral part of the story.... not all the events in the campaign will happen to the player, unless you want to disregard realism
- Make it fun. ;)
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Originally posted by CP5670
...for my campaign...
:lol: That made me look under your name, and the first thing I saw was "PI", which I thought was overly fitting. :p
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Hmm
"PiD"
o.O
That makes even less sense
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Originally posted by aldo_14
I'm not a FREDer, but IMO;
- The background, and especially placement of planets and stars, can be very improtant in atmoshpere.
Yeah, thats true... is near a jump node in the gravational field between to large stars? Is it near a space station in high orbit of a gas giant and its many small moons... I just like some sort of physical feeling of the area of space you are playying in.
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This is all great advice, guys, but what I really want to know about is how to make cutscenes, new weapon selection icons and command briefing animations. What sort of expertise do I need for this stuff and who has it?
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You have to fill out form GTVA-45972/02 for the firght to have these skills and then fill out form GTVA-45270/01B for your right to use these skills. Also forms GTVA-9975/G andGTVA-607/B must be completed so you can represent weapons of tiny right up to mass destruction and the ability to portray these weapons in an acurate form. These should be sent to GTVA porsseing office (now located on the deep space station Alpha 103-G. After a background check lasting 5 days, you will recive form GTVA-90957/CORT within 28 days whichmust be completed and returned within 14 days. You will then recive your offical Skills badge and number enabling you to learn, use and profit from these skills.
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All the things you mentioned are .anis which are built from .pcx files using Anibuilder (there is other but not as good). I am sure someone will arrive and elborate further.
Good PSP or PS skills neede to do most icons etc. Rendering neede for cutscences (and code)
EDIT - I just noticed this in Aldos post.
- Make the story compact... a 100 mission campaign sounds impressive, but you'd probably forget the story midway through and get bored
Since I seem to be the only one doing a 100 mission campign, It MUST be targeted at me! (im paranoid by the way).
My TC will not be boring! You will not forget the plot, it is simple in its construction but complex in its execution (hey that sounded cool!). (And then theres the tranning! This ain't no 'learn to shoot' TSMMSTSMMSTMSM-0201010120304/3!)
P.S. I don't REALLY think Aldo is out to get me :nervous:
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Originally posted by Su-tehp
This is all great advice, guys, but what I really want to know about is how to make cutscenes, new weapon selection icons and command briefing animations. What sort of expertise do I need for this stuff and who has it?
Cutscenes: Someone who can use Lightwave or 3DSMAX effectively to animate space scenes.
Weapon selection icons: What exactly do you mean? The little sillohettes (sp?) of the weapons, or the hi-poly weapon render on a green grid?
Command Briefing Anims: same as cutscenes, possibly with vector graphics knowledge for schematic-type animations.
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Originally posted by Sandwich
Weapon selection icons: What exactly do you mean? The little sillohettes (sp?) of the weapons, or the hi-poly weapon render on a green grid?
I meant the little silhouettes that you select and grab to arm your fighter, but yeah, info on the hi-poly weaon render would also be useful. I need info on both, please.
This is good stuff people, exactly what I wanted to know. Keep those suggestions coming! :)
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Originally posted by Su-tehp
I meant the little silhouettes that you select and grab to arm your fighter, but yeah, info on the hi-poly weaon render would also be useful. I need info on both, please.
This is good stuff people, exactly what I wanted to know. Keep those suggestions coming! :)
The "high poly render" is nothing more than a 3d model rendered in a good engine using ray tracing and anti-aliasing (>8*8). Contact me PM if you want to know more on that. (I've never rendered weapons 'cos I ain't got no models, but I have done ship rendering for the loadout)
Now, as for little icons, well I always found them a bugger so... :nervous:
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Your just a regular vacum arn't ya:p
Snadwhich, what do you mean by vector graphics for schmatic animations. They way I see it they are to cumbersome for it.
What did :v: use?
SU, do you want to leanr this or hire people with the knowledge of what they actually do?
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Originally posted by LAW ENFORCER
Su, do you want to learn this or hire people with the knowledge of what they actually do?
I don't have the time to learn all this because of Real Life (TM) issues (including law school), but I'm hoping to add people to my DatDB staff with this expertise.
Basically, I wanted to know what kinds of additional bells and whistles I could add to the DatDB campaign to make it as similar to the original campaign as possible (cutscenes, origial command briefing anis, etc.)
If people posting here are willing to join the DatDB campaign and have the needed expertise, then I'll let them join.
Any prospective candidates need to remember that I'm delegating as much work as I can, but I HAVEN'T finished scripting the story or mission outlines yet. Work assignments on the campaign will be intermittent at best, so anyone who wants to join needs to be made aware of that fact.
And I don't expect this campaign to be complete for at least a year, maybe two.
Law Enforcer, you wouldn't be interested in signing on, would you? :)
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Where can i get ani builder?
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Originally posted by Sheepy
Where can i get ani builder?
Here:
http://www.descent-network.com/
Lots of other good campaign building tools here, too, feel free to check them out.
And, Sheepy, if you make me ANIs so impressive as to give me involuntary bowel movements (translation: if your ANIs are so good that they make me ****), I'll friggin' promote you to my second-in-command on the DatDB staff (and screw Lone!) J/K ;)
Geez, Sheepy, you're shaping up to be a regular campaign-building Renaissance man! :lol: ;7
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Would now be a good time to tell u i ment for the lil shillote type jobbie things, i dont have a renderer for the other stuff .... hmmm *has an idea, tinkers in the background*
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Oh God, I've inadvertently created a monster...:nervous: :shaking: :wtf:
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If u need ani's done with those maps i may be able to sort em out, but dont hold me to it.
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Originally posted by Sheepy
If u need ani's done with those maps i may be able to sort em out, but dont hold me to it.
Fair enough, but anything you learn as a result of experimenting with it may become useful. I trust your judgment, Sheepy. :nod:
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what are the dimensions for the briefing ani's, well the bits before the briefings if u know what i mean :p
I could go search for them, but im laisy
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Originally posted by LAW ENFORCER
Snadwhich, what do you mean by vector graphics for schmatic animations. They way I see it they are to cumbersome for it.
What did :v: use?
Ok, together now: S-A-N-D-W-I-C-H... Sandwich! :rolleyes:
Sorry, bad description - I meant line graphics, like the teeny-tiny paragraphs of unreadble text surrounded by a thin line/box, supposedly with information about this star system, or that piece of tech. Graphs, statistics, that sort of thing - stuff that can't be done via TS/MAX because it should be 2D to begin with.
Originally posted by Su-tehp
....involuntary bowel movements ...
Hmm, had you said "Involuntary Convulsive Bowel Movements", I would have started worrying that you were from Iraq and were gonna nuke us from afar. :wink: :p :lol:
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That made me look under your name, and the first thing I saw was "PI", which I thought was overly fitting.
I also noticed that a while ago; the campaign name initials happen to be the same as a math constant, which fits quite well in there. :D
supposedly with information about this star system...
:lol: :lol: ;)
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Hey Sutehp anything you need graphic wise, whether it be a simple PS file to a Vecotr graphic file or even 3d Studio files, i can help you out NP. If you can find someone to do them great tho as time is not on my side.
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Originally posted by CP5670
:lol: :lol: ;)
Bah - you saw that topic a while back about what was really written in those boxes of text, right? I can't think of any appropriate keywords to search for it, though... :doubt:
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Originally posted by Lonestar
Hey Sutehp anything you need graphic wise, whether it be a simple PS file to a Vecotr graphic file or even 3d Studio files, i can help you out NP. If you can find someone to do them great tho as time is not on my side.
I don't even know what a PS file is, that's the extent of my ignorance of computer programming and computer graphics....
Well, actually, it isn't. I'm sure my ignorance extends much farther than that...
Anyway, Lone, just FYI, I have Sheepy working on new FS2 squadron logos for DatDB. I just sent him some suggestions on about maybe a dozen newly named squads. No word on when they'll be done, but it's not like we're in a rush or anything.
When I have word on this, I'll let you know.
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PS is Postscript if I remember correctly; I think it is the format that most printer drivers convert data to before sending to the printer.
Bah - you saw that topic a while back about what was really written in those boxes of text, right? I can't think of any appropriate keywords to search for it, though... :doubt:
See my third post in this: http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,6133.0.html :D
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Originally posted by CP5670
PS is Postscript if I remember correctly; I think it is the format that most printer drivers convert data to before sending to the printer.
See my third post in this: http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,6133.0.html :D
No its Photoshop, the standard in designing any pictures on the internet, besides of course Fireworks but it handles entirely different pictures although they both can do the same thing almost.
As for making pics for printers, thats a whole other subject entirely which would take quite awhile to explain.
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Originally posted by Lonestar
No its Photoshop, the standard in designing any pictures on the internet, besides of course Fireworks but it handles entirely different pictures although they both can do the same thing almost.
Actually, PS is PostScript, and Photoshop is PSD, but who's counting, right? :)
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Ugh, too many letters and abbreviations...
My brain hurts...:shaking:
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Making ani's is simple:)
Animations overall are simple to do i can do then in 4/5 hours, if you have the skills ofcourse,
I use LW7.5 for my animations and CB's for campaigns but it took me months to make a decent looking animation. So you proberly better of whit someone doing it for ya instead nof learning it.;)
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Originally posted by darkage
Making ani's is simple:)
Animations overall are simple to do i can do then in 4/5 hours, if you have the skills ofcourse,
I use LW7.5 for my animations and CB's for campaigns but it took me months to make a decent looking animation. So you proberly better of whit someone doing it for ya instead nof learning it.;)
Darkage, ol' buddy, ol' pal, can I interest you into joining the "Devil and the Deep Blue" staff? :D
You'd get the opportunity to make some _interesting_ anis! :nod:
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Originally posted by Su-tehp
My brain hurts...:shaking:
*massages Su's brain*
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Originally posted by Su-tehp
Darkage, ol' buddy, ol' pal, can I interest you into joining the "Devil and the Deep Blue" staff? :D
You'd get the opportunity to make some _interesting_ anis! :nod:
Hehe, sorry to disapoint you Su, but i already have a butload of work that needs finishing and some stuff i need to start on.
Maby later when i am not so busy anymore,but i'll mail you or PM you when i might help ya out.
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management sills and an idea.
My campaign started with this sweet idea, then became a written decription, then a staff was formed, now i'm managing.
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Originally posted by darkage
Hehe, sorry to disapoint you Su, but i already have a butload of work that needs finishing and some stuff i need to start on.
Maby later when i am not so busy anymore,but i'll mail you or PM you when i might help ya out.
Yeah, considering the number of avatars under your name, I figured you'd be too busy, but I figured it was worth a shot...
No sweat, Darkage. DatDB is a long term project, with a probable release date two years from now. If you find time between now and then, let me know.
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Advance the storyline in mission. Don't just have the command briefings explain what's happening. Integrating them into the actual missions makes the player feel as if he's actually taking part in events, rather than on the sidelines watching.
Throw surprises at the player. That's something I believe the main FS2 campaign excelled at. When you first hear about Bosch's Etak project, you undoubtedly assumed that it was some sort of weapon. In the briefings, that notion is reinforced, when the officers repeatedly say it is "probably a weapon of mass destruction". I mean, what else would a villain be constructing anyway? It then comes as a much bigger surprise when it's revealed to actually be a communications device.
People often comment that the Bosch monologues were all boring. I've always found the second one quite entertaining. How often do you see the evil guy denigrating all his men as an "army of stupid cattle"? It's the little pieces that combine to form a great story.
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OK, this is starting to seem more than a little troll-like, Executor. Best stay clear of Thunder, m'kay?
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:wtf: where did this come from...
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*Beats Executor with a rotting frozen fish*
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I .....
Smell .......
(http://www.fattonys.com/images/Upload/ownage.jpg)
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umm....
whats this? an old thread you say?
Prepare the Thread Blaster 5000!
*pulls out giant, black cannon-like object thats about twice as big as an Apollo*
Power up main closing beam cannons....
FIRE!
*any admins out there? that's your cue*