Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Carl on December 19, 2002, 06:33:56 pm
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1. All the blue prints, plans, ect. are already created. No design stage required.
2. Molds and casts have already been created for the parts.
3. Plants already have the machinery to make parts.
4. All the quirks and suprise engineering problems have been worked out.
5. Technology improvements allow for faster construction then they did 20 years ago.
6. Engineers have exprience build the ship.
7. Parts from the first Collosus may have been salvaged.
8. Spare parts that were created for the first one could be used in construction.
So with all this in mind, I think they could probably build a new one in a fraction of the time it took to build the first. Probably less than half. Your thoughts?
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it sucked :D
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Of course it would take less time. The first is always the worst. A replacement would take much less time.
Of course, it would be twice as foolish to build a second one as it was to build the first one.
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....:wtf:....:doubt:.........:blah:........:nod:.....:D....;7
He's right! They also would have found out a better way to *ahem* "Micro-manage" it, like reducing the crews, making it...well, more effecient then the POS the first one was like...and if I'm not mistaken, in the briefing after High Noon, it said that it would take 8 months for the Colossus to be repaired...maybe they were making spare parts when the Colossus was completed...maybe they were making...another one already, like a sister ship...maybe, maybe not.
Cor
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and i managed to get the colosus thru without any damage
why build anotherone ? :rolleyes:
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Economics ?
if the shivans have like 100´s Sathanas
why even bother to build another Collosus.
Even with all the improvements you list, it will take decades to build a fleet capeble of countering the sathanas.
instead they should focus on building the "sherman" or"T-34" of the battle-ships.
cheap, fast to build, easy to repair, and can get the job done when countering any enemies when enough is at hand.
The germans, during WWII focused on design and Quality rather than thinking of the aspects of war-fare.
that was one of the reason´s why they where defeated.
T-34´s from the East, and Shermans from the West.
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Originally posted by DTP
Shermans from the West.
Good point, bad example. Rounds from the shermans literally bounced off the hulks that were the german tanks. Personally, I think a fleet of small fast light carriers and vast numbers of bombers and fighters is more practical, especially fighters like the Myrmidon which can carry the Helios bomb. They're fast enough to get through the defenses with minimal losses and can deliver the payload up close and personal. A few squadrons of Myrmidons can spell the death of a sathanas in just a few passes, far more economical than parking a Colossus in front of it and trading beams back and forth for half an hour :D
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If the Myrmidon can carry the Helios, why can't it carry the smaller Cyclops? Oh well....
I don't think a fleet of carriers, but a fleet of destroyers with large hangerbays. That way Command could bring in a few destroyers to attack a Sathanas. The destroyers trade beams with it while their squadrons of Myrmidons protect squadrons of Boanerges. The Boanerges launch their Helios, and at the same time so do the Myrmidons that are providing them cover. The Myrmidons then try to cover the warheads as they impact the Sathanas' hull.
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Originally posted by Hades
If the Myrmidon can carry the Helios, why can't it carry the smaller Cyclops?
Because :V: sucks...
:nervous:
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Originally posted by diamondgeezer
Because :V: sucks...
:nervous:
What the hell have you been smokin'?
:rolleyes:
Burn the blasphemar!!!:)
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Originally posted by Hades
If the Myrmidon can carry the Helios, why can't it carry the smaller Cyclops? Oh well....
I don't think a fleet of carriers, but a fleet of destroyers with large hangerbays. That way Command could bring in a few destroyers to attack a Sathanas. The destroyers trade beams with it while their squadrons of Myrmidons protect squadrons of Boanerges. The Boanerges launch their Helios, and at the same time so do the Myrmidons that are providing them cover. The Myrmidons then try to cover the warheads as they impact the Sathanas' hull.
Destroyers dont trade beams with Sathani my friend, they take one hit and they're down for the count. The advantage with using smaller vessels is that they can be faster, they're more maneuverable, and can thus get into the jug's blinder areas whereas a destroyer could only lumber in the general direction hoping the crew of the Sathanas is taking a nap.
When just about anything that gets hit dies, you might as well lose a cruiser size carrier instead of a destroyer for each beam; in the end you lose far less.
As for using Boans to bomb a Sathanas, Boans can't get within a klick of a sathanas without eating flak or aaaf. Add to the equation the numerous fighters a Sathanas carries and you have a bunch of expensive slow vape-bait carrying equally expensive bombs. The only way the Boans would have a chance is if fighters went in first and disarmed the Sathanas and wiped out its fighters; if you're sending the fighters in first anyway, why not just have them take the bombs and deliver them while they're there? They can dump the bombs at the turrets at close range and then engage the fighters, withdraw to a safe distance, rearm, and repeat. Far more economical don't you agree?
;)
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But if you have three or four destroyers jump in behind a Sathanas, then have them launch Myrmidons and Boanerges, you're set. The Sathanas doesn't have any AAA that I'm aware of (It only has five beam cannons). The only threat to the destroyers is the backmounted beam cannon, but three or four destroyers can handle it.
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:wtf:
It has plenty of aaaf, they're just placed in all the wrong places.
And besides, I don't think V meant for it to be so easy for a pack of bombers to kill Their Juggs.. perhaps FS2 could use some balancing :confused:
I'm pretty sure the Myrmadon/Helios was an accident as It doesn't seem like something V would do.
As for sending in the Colossus directly infront of the Sath.. V sacrificed realsm for gameplay, which was a really poor choice IMO. If a few more beams were added around the Sath, or It actually used its fighters along with the Col, then It would have been better.
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Originally posted by Knight Templar
I'm pretty sure the Myrmadon/Helios was an accident as It doesn't seem like something V would do.
I'm pretty sure theres a tech breifing out there somewhere that specifically mentions this ability; makes sense as the Myrmidon is designed to be more of a strike craft for quick hits. As for the Sath being so easy to kill, a few bombs wont do much, but you get a few squadrons lined up and you have one dead juggernaut, the key is in the numbers.
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Actually I'll bet it was an easter egg. Not very many missions in the campaign let you arm the myrmidon with Helios, simply because one or the other isn't available.
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I suppose.. about squads though.. the FS Universe (due to Systems and Gameplay I guess) isn't really oriented to Squadrons
Hardly in a mission do you use a full 12 fighters. I always thought next to Brilliantly stupid Capship tactics, this was one of FS2's biggest gameplay weaknesses. Of course 6 Squadrons of Ursa's could mop a Sath, but V used cost, and not launching anywhere near the full amount of caps' fighters..
meh.. Whatya gonna do?
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It might work out, but it really depends on what the average citizen thought of the ship. If they see the original as a failed project and fruitless endeavor, you definitely want to give it a new name/appearance/statistics to distinguish and distance it from the original as much as possible. On the other hand, if it appears as a heroic vessel that concluded the NTF war and took down a number of Shivan destroyers with it, do the opposite. It is quite likely that they will try another "joint project" sometime, but whether it will follow the same design as the Colossus is questionable.
As for the Myrmidon/Helios thing, that was definitely unintentional. They probably intended to put in the Harpoon instead, for which there is no reason that a highly versatile space superiority fighter should not be able to carry; this thing is the best all round anti-fighter missile, so the Myrmidon should definitely have it. The Helios is not a standard-issue weapon at all and is only used in the most critical situations, and only the largest bombers in the game can carry it anyway.
Actually I'll bet it was an easter egg. Not very many missions in the campaign let you arm the myrmidon with Helios, simply because one or the other isn't available.
Yeah, actually there is no campaign mission at all which lets you do that; the only official missions where it can be done is in multiplayer, which are tweaked quite differently gameplay-wise.
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To be honest, I don't think building another Colossus is a good idea. I think the GTVA should focus more on properly defending current ships against Shivan weaponry.
* Capital ship shielding would be a big bonus. They've had access to shield tech for a good 36 years. I think its time to impliment some kind of capital ship shields.
*Secondly, bring back capital ship torpedoes! The Fenris and Leviathan-class ships are the only terran GTVA ships capabile of firing such weapons that I've seen.
*Increase the firing rate for the pulse cannons so that they can provide an adequate defense against fighters/bombs/asteroids.
*Making some decent escape pods that can actually take a beating! I mean, FFS! I can take out an escape pod within my first or second volley from my primaries! These things have GOT to be able to survive the shockwave of the destruction of the ship as well as any enemy fighter bombardments.
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Then why does it have those big, honker nacelles on the wing tips? The openings are way too big for any thing but a torpedo.
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Dude, those are missile launchers. (assuming you're referring to the Myrmedon)
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IIRC those don't have Secondary Banks on them.. just boosters ro something of the sort.
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You folks talk about fighters and lighter capships being more ecconomical than another Col and in terms of construction cost alone you'd be right. But maintanence would be a ***** for a fleet of smaller ships and carriers (not to mention the fighter groups embarked)
And then there's the logistical support like resupply and the ships required fer that. Plus lookit what the col does fer a livnig... you could easily use a hull like that as a mobile base of ops than constructing starbases, especially when your side is pushing the frontline back towards yer enemy when it may be... unwise to begin constructing hard targets in newly captured territories. Plus you can move it outta the way of any counter offensive.
Oh, and Narol's gotta point. I remember reading something about the Myrmey being able to carry a helios... isn't one of it's weapon bay a huge one? You'd be able to fit a couple in with a bit of tweaking... thought by that reasoning it should be able to use the cyclops too.
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nah, the weapon bays are comparatively small, and it can only carry 1, 1 and 2 bombs respectively in each bank. Where is this reference you guys are talking about? I can't remember seeing such a thing anywhere... (it only says that the Myrmidon is a very versatile ship, but only in roles from assault to recon)
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meh.. I don't ever remember there being a refrence.. just knowing it :p
But I thad to be a **** up on V's part, It's not like them to make a fighter like that. Most of their ships have strict guidelines as to how they act, even space supierority. Besides, as said, It would make a whole lot more sense if it were harpoons instead.
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Yeah, I was wondering why I didn't get the tech d/base dossiers on fighters like the Artemis DH and the Aries and long story short I found something, a .txt or a .cfg that had the write ups for each of the ships including the V pirate ship. I was pretty sure it said something in there about the Myrmey with torps. Dunno, it was a while ago, hopefully I've still got it. I'll hunt around for it.
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It didn't say anything about it in the Myr's Desc. IIRC which was visible at all times.. Whjy would it say it in the Ares or Pirate Ship's?
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I'd say that the Helios in the Myrmidon was either an Easter Egg or joke of some kind, so it probably shouldn't be used as a basis for some sort of Anti Sathannas Strategy. The Harpoon, however, was probably quite deliberate -
$Name: GTF Perseus
+Gun Mounts: 4
+Missile Banks: 2
$Max Velocity: 0.0, 0.0, 80.0
$Rotation time: 3.3, 3.3, 3.3
$SBank Capacity: ( 40, 40 )
$Shields: 350
$Hitpoints: 265
$AI Class: Captain
$Afterburner: YES
+Aburn Max Vel: 0.0, 0.0, 140.0
+Aburn For accel: 0.8
+Aburn Fuel: 330.0
+Aburn Burn Rate: 60.0
+Aburn Rec Rate: 25.0
$Countermeasures: 40
$Name: GTF Hercules Mark II
+Gun Mounts: 4
+Missile Banks: 2
$Max Velocity: 0.0, 0.0, 55.0
$Rotation time: 3.8, 4.2, 3.8
$SBank Capacity: ( 80, 100 )
$Shields: 610
$Hitpoints: 275
$Afterburner: YES
+Aburn Max Vel: 0.0, 0.0, 120.0
+Aburn For accel: 0.75
+Aburn Fuel: 400.0
+Aburn Burn Rate: 55.0
+Aburn Rec Rate: 19.0
$Countermeasures: 25
$Name: GTF Myrmidon
+Gun Mounts: 6
+Missile Banks: 3
$Max Velocity: 0.0, 0.0, 75.0
$Rotation time: 4.0, 3.7, 5
$SBank Capacity: ( 20, 20, 40 )
$Shields: 390
$Hitpoints: 290
$Afterburner: YES
+Aburn Max Vel: 0.0, 0.0, 135.0
+Aburn For accel: 0.8
+Aburn Fuel: 320.0
+Aburn Burn Rate: 60.0
+Aburn Rec Rate: 25.0
$Countermeasures: 36
Looking at the Myrmidon compared to the other two staple craft of the GTVA, it's vastly over powered. It's only 5 m/s slower than the Perseus, which was supposed to have some advanced propulsion system, yet it has a stronger hull than even the Herc 2, as well as more countermeasures and a less efficient afterburner - not only that, but uit has more firepower than the supposedly 'Heavy Assault' Herc 2 - if it weren't for the smaller secondary banks, and the lower shielde, the Myrmidon would be far better as a Heavy Assault - I'd say the Harpoon was taken out as an attempt to balance it somewhat...
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why not building a colossus right away:
coz the shivans are gone for probably a long time :p
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Perhaps the nacelles on the Myrmidon's wingtips are shield projectors? Just a thought.
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Originally posted by <<ERROR>>
Perhaps the nacelles on the Myrmidon's wingtips are shield projectors? Just a thought.
missile launchers, look at the pof :p
As for maintaining a fleet of smaller vessels, I think it'd be far easier than maitaining 1 colossal capital ship like the Colossus. You're talking about smaller parts which can be easily transported by things like an Elysium, an entire squadron of cruiser sized carriers can be reasonably repaired, resupplied, and get their medical check-ups done by a Hippocrates and a similar sized tender ship. As opposed to pulling a ship like the Colossus into drydock some 5 jumps behind the front lines to stay for a few months just to repair or replace a fuel cell or reactor core. Smaller parts are also easier to mass produce ;)
On the Myrmidon and Helios, even if it wasn't meant to carry the Helios, new fighters should be designed to be able to deliver such weapons, even if they have to strap it on to the outter hull. The point is not so much that the Myrmidon can do it, but that a fighter craft should. Bombers don't have a chance, which if you've ever tried to take a Boan in on a Sathanas, I'm sure you've quickly learned (like me in that Halcyon mission) :D
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Originally posted by LtNarol
Bombers don't have a chance, which if you've ever tried to take a Boan in on a Sathanas, I'm sure you've quickly learned (like me in that Halcyon mission) :D
Not quite true :D
But in BTS you better take an Ursa and have some good cover pilots with you ;)
Where standard bombers truely have no chance is my TDIC mission specially made for "Mrym only bombing" :)
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Originally posted by DTP
Economics ?
if the shivans have like 100´s Sathanas
why even bother to build another Collosus.
why not build 100 collosuses :D
or 10,000 sobeks with bomber escort
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Looking at the Myrmidon compared to the other two staple craft of the GTVA, it's vastly over powered. It's only 5 m/s slower than the Perseus, which was supposed to have some advanced propulsion system, yet it has a stronger hull than even the Herc 2, as well as more countermeasures and a less efficient afterburner - not only that, but uit has more firepower than the supposedly 'Heavy Assault' Herc 2 - if it weren't for the smaller secondary banks, and the lower shielde, the Myrmidon would be far better as a Heavy Assault - I'd say the Harpoon was taken out as an attempt to balance it somewhat...
You could be right about that actually; I did not know that the Myrmidon was so powerful until now. I guess this especially makes sense considering how effective the Harpoon is... (it is even taken out of most of the multiplayer TvT missions since it is too good there)
On the Myrmidon and Helios, even if it wasn't meant to carry the Helios, new fighters should be designed to be able to deliver such weapons, even if they have to strap it on to the outter hull. The point is not so much that the Myrmidon can do it, but that a fighter craft should. Bombers don't have a chance, which if you've ever tried to take a Boan in on a Sathanas, I'm sure you've quickly learned (like me in that Halcyon mission) :D
That will make the fighters way too powerful though, and there would be no real point in having bombers in the first place. A squad of fighters, or even one of bombers, should not be able to take down a destroyer just like that; ideally a typical attack on a large warship should involve a combination of swarms of fighters/bombers along with a cruiser or corvette.
I use a boanerges in that mission too; works okay for me though... :D (as Cet said, you just need good pilots covering you)
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:doubt:
"Why not build 100 Death Stars and just superlaser each Sathani?"
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one death star could superlaser all 100 sathani.
i think that's are solution. the GTVA should build a death star.
...
what? :confused:
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1st rule of Government spending: Why have one for normal price, when you could two for twice the price.
2... 100.. it's all relative.
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Contact! :D
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Originally posted by SayWhatNow?
long story short I found something, a .txt or a .cfg that had the write ups for each of the ships including the V pirate ship.
Uhhh... you mean ships.tbl?
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Originally posted by CP5670
That will make the fighters way too powerful though, and there would be no real point in having bombers in the first place.
Helios bombs are anti-matter weapons, they're supposed to be powerful. And rigging them to the outter hull of a fighter is pretty desperate, which makes sense if you're up against a hundred or so Sathani don't you think? ;)
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Originally posted by LtNarol
Helios bombs are anti-matter weapons, they're supposed to be powerful. And rigging them to the outter hull of a fighter is pretty desperate, which makes sense if you're up against a hundred or so Sathani don't you think? ;)
But what happens when the enemy fighters start targetting the bombs?
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You're screwed.:D
Well, I don't think even the GTVA is stupid enough to strap Helios on the side of a fighter......
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Originally posted by karajorma
But what happens when the enemy fighters start targetting the bombs?
Thats why you fly far apart and dodge ;)
Seriously though, if a bomber carrying helios gets shot down, the anti-matter would still lose EM containment and react with matter, so really its no different.
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They couldn't even if they wanted to. There wouldn't be enough SEXP nodes available to destroy the bomb subsystem every time the pilots fired their weapons :p
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Originally posted by LtNarol
Thats why you fly far apart and dodge ;)
Seriously though, if a bomber carrying helios gets shot down, the anti-matter would still lose EM containment and react with matter, so really its no different.
Well it is different in that this time the bomb is strapped to the hull of the fighter rather than being several hundred meters away. It's actually inside the shield which means that the shield would offer no protection from the blast
Shooting the bomb would either cripple or destroy the fighter. In addition we know how weak the hull is on a helios, one shot and the whole thing would go up.
As far as I`m concerned strapping bombs to fighters is an idea up there with strapping a 100mm cannon to your car and calling it a tank. One day people might be desperate enough to do it but for the military to actually plan it is just plain folly.
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The following is an announcement from the Ministry of Fidelity to Ancient Languages:
The plural of Sathanas is Sathanes.
The plural of Colossus is Colossi.
"Sathanas" is Greek, not Latin. The -as ending pluralises to -es in Greek. The -i plural ending belongs to Latin words like "Colossus." It does not belong on Sathanas. Thank you.
We now return you to your regularily scheduled off-topic thread.
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Originally posted by Sesquipedalian
The following is an announcement from the Ministry of Fidelity to Ancient Languages:
The plural of Sathanas is Sathanes.
The plural of Colossus is Colossi.
"Sathanas" is Greek, not Latin. The -as ending pluralises to -es in Greek. The -i plural ending belongs to Latin words like "Colossus." It does not belong on Sathanas. Thank you.
We now return you to your regularily scheduled off-topic thread.
*senses the death of the thread*
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for some reason I feel really angry now..
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...back on topic.
To defeat a Sathanas .-
Bigger beams on smaller ships
Its that simple. If destroyers could carry a BFgreen or two each then most cap ship wars would be solved much faster. Bombers and fighters aren't the way to do it, the resources should be put into developing current reactors and beams instead of huge productions and logistic efforts.
So no, they shouldnt build a new collosus.
why am i talking like this is actually real?
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there are a bunch of latin words in english, but we still use english plurals, hence: Sathani.
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Originally posted by beatspete
destroyers could carry a BFgreen or two each
that would be nice, it would also be nice if an apollo could fire the shivan super laser. if you want to carry a big weapon, you need a big ship. you can't just stick a beam on anything and expect it to work.
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I stuck a beam on my arse and it worked...
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Originally posted by Carl
there are a bunch of latin words in english, but we still use english plurals, hence: Sathani.
But you don't apply Latin endings to non-Latin words. If you want to use English pluralisation, it'd be Sathanases (which sounds funny). But why would you stick a Latin ending on a non-Latin word?
:)
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Originally posted by diamondgeezer
I stuck a beam on my arse and it worked...
kaboom.... :ick !
me thinks we all put too much guestimating into what a fictional government would do illogically.
the game writers at V did it a certain way for story purposes not gameplay enhancement. if we were to balance out every destroyer in the game, i bet u will have crusiers and corvetes speeding around as if there Soverign class ships or fighters running around at 50 M/S.
this ideal move woulda been nice but since a corvette is actually the size (maybe off a few meters) of the current enterprise for example, and that the fs ships are made to be hunking and slow, it would be safe to say that if all ships were balanced for gameplay FIRST AND FORMOST, i think freespace would have been a thousand times more entertaining and breathtaking with proper story writing.
if a hecate was running from an exploding ship or star, and had to reach a node right away, wouldnt it be more realistic and heart racing to see the ship move as if its flying yes sublight/subspace (yes i know subspace in terms of the game is just the worm hole, no artificial faster then light travel but u go faster cause of the subspace contium makeup) speed, but as if outrunning a shockwave.
realism has been one of the issues about the game and the ship itself. the irresponcible construction of the colossus might not be irresponcible if it didnt have so many friggen failures with its power, IE the script of the story etc. cause if u made the colossus like it was in the tech room script, and it was maxed out as stated, it would FUBAR'ed any ship in the game. forget all that powergrid failure nonsense, if it was suppose to fire 12 beam turrets that are LRBFgreen, then it should have friggen blown away the sahtanas in the game.
dont follow the script kiddies follow the logic of the TBL!
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tables say it has 6 BFG's and 6 TerSlashs like its supposed to.
The thing about the Colossus is that it has the most firepower in the game, but it's evenly distributed so that it can only bring about 50% of it's total firepower on a target at one time. That' coupled with bad tactics and failing to use more than 5% of It's given fighter complement was its downfall. Now I've never checked, but does the C have beams on the top or bottom parts of the ship?
And about the speed issue, I always thought it was appropriate. FS Ships are kinda made to seem big and hulking like today's warships. Besides, I don't really see Beams with ships going half the speed of light. And don't say they would be like Phasers, cuz they wouldn't. And if the the caps go the fast, the Fighters would go ungodly fast.. and I just don't think it would work out right.
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actually, there's no reason why the fighters wouldn't be just as fast as the cap ships. in the game that caps go 1/3 or so of the fighter's speed. they should both go the same speed. all you have to do is take the fighter engine and scale it up.
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Look, it's like it is cos V wanted it to feel like a WWII dogfighter... big, hulking cap ships and nippy little fighters buzzing around the big ships...
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*Thinks about the fs2 fighter speeds.*
The only way that would happen is if you install Shushi's velocity MOD.
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The only way that would happen is if you install Shushi's velocity MOD.
Or just be patient :drevil:
Anyway, something about the ol' Colossus - she's supposed to have missile launchers (and hence could've carried some of the more deadly ones) but the pof and tbl have no secondary banks. :wtf:
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Well, the Orion was supposed to be "bristling with dozens of Death Dealing turrets". But then again that isn't a great comparison as the Orion is a great warship. But the Colossus was good at what she was made for, pulverizing NTF ships. Don't forget, it wasn't designed to take on a Sathanas, and the fact that it did is a great achievement.
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Originally posted by Hades
Well, the Orion was supposed to be "bristling with dozens of Death Dealing turrets". But then again that isn't a great comparison as the Orion is a great warship. But the Colossus was good at what she was made for, pulverizing NTF ships. Don't forget, it wasn't designed to take on a Sathanas, and the fact that it did is a great achievement.
and... with the help of Alpha 1 :p
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Originally posted by Hades
Well, the Orion was supposed to be "bristling with dozens of Death Dealing turrets". But then again that isn't a great comparison as the Orion is a great warship. But the Colossus was good at what she was made for, pulverizing NTF ships. Don't forget, it wasn't designed to take on a Sathanas, and the fact that it did is a great achievement.
correction, it was designed to take on the Lucifer destroyer class, when they started building the thing, they knew nothing of sathanes.
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I stand corrected. But it still was designed to take on a Sathanas.:D
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Originally posted by Hades
I stand corrected. But it still was designed to take on a Sathanas.:D
ermm...didn't you just contradict yourself??
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Yeah Zy, the .tbl sounds about right maybe... dunno, memory's trashed... Does it say about the Myrmy and the H?
Gotta go with Geeze on the speed. I kinda think it pretty obvious to see that V wanted to make a distinction between 'aircraft' and cap-ships to give the feel of contemporary style aircraft and ships... it creates the specific feel of the game they wanted players to enjoy... what fun is there in chasing down yer ship down when it can outrun you and especially when it's just been spooked by a lucy or a sath?
I mean, as a player, I'd feel better knowing that if I'm going down, at least there are a lot of innocent people coming with me than if they escaped and left me for dead (like in WC 5) :thepimp:
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...you know... that whole 'fear of abandonment' issue... again.
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Originally posted by Hades
I stand corrected. But it still was designed to take on a Sathanas.:D
:nervous:
That's gotta be the stupidest typo I've ever done....
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Originally posted by Carl
if you want to carry a big weapon, you need a big ship. you can't just stick a beam on anything and expect it to work.
...and thats why I said they should spend time developing reactors and weapons instead of building bigger targets for the shivans.
see "Lilith"
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Originally posted by StratComm
Actually I'll bet it was an easter egg. Not very many missions in the campaign let you arm the myrmidon with Helios, simply because one or the other isn't available.
Nah... They did it so the Myrmidon wouldn't suck too bad.:D
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I thought the Myrmidon was an excellent fighter. Although the Ulysses has a higher survival rating against fighters(I did a test, Ulysses vs. Myrmidon. Which ste of wingmen would last longer against a wing of Dragons)
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Originally posted by SayWhatNow?
Yeah Zy, the .tbl sounds about right maybe... dunno, memory's trashed... Does it say about the Myrmy and the H?
Nope it says nothing about the myrm carrying helios's. In fact the myrm is far too small to carry a helios judging from these pics.
(http://homepage.ntlworld.com/karajorma/freespace/images/Myrmidon&Helios01.jpg)
(http://homepage.ntlworld.com/karajorma/freespace/images/Myrmidon&Helios02.jpg)
That said I`ve never compared any of the other FS2 missiles. They might all be too big :)
EDIT : odd. why didn`t the pics show up?
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LOL! The missile does look a bit big...
and on a side note, how did you get the textured ships into TS?
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I just extracted all the textures and converted them into BMP's using Irfanview (I find it easier to use that PSP for stuff like that) and then simply extracted the ship using modelview and converted it using PCS.
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Originally posted by Hades
I thought the Myrmidon was an excellent fighter. Although the Ulysses has a higher survival rating against fighters(I did a test, Ulysses vs. Myrmidon. Which ste of wingmen would last longer against a wing of Dragons)
actually if we wanna say in terms of fictional reality, the term space supiriority means, versitility, multi-role-multi-purpose fighter/bomber (which ever it may be). Much like the F-15 Eagle, its a air supiriority fighter and it has bombing capabilities (much like all fighters these days), but the f-15 anf f-16 for sake of argument, can drop nuclear bombs/small missiles (as of 1982 lol).
why not the Myrmydon, quick strike missions assisting bombers. if they want a hit and run, you use fast fighters that can attack and bug out, but if it cant, it can put up a decent fight. And being as how secondary wise, with 3 load outs, although bleak, real fighters dont have 15 Sidewinders, and 15 anti tank missles (IE 14 harpoons and 15 trebuchets), a real fighter (f-14-18 has up to 8 air to air missiles, 4 Air to land, etc.; thus meaning versitility, multirole air/space craft. the myrmidon, IS... the best all around fighter, although coulda used more speed lol...
and Hades, dude the typo was so.... :yes:
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Which is why I want to fly Typhoons when I finally join up - fourteen missiles plus a central fuel tank! Woosh!
That whole missile thing does get at me somewhat.I'd prefer a balance like, oh, I don't know - Space: Above And Beyond (yes, I'm going off on one again...). The pilots in that basically used their cannons and we saw missiles being used, like three times in the whole series, but they used them more like modern a2a missiles. That said, the game style and "physics" of FS favour the way :V: did missiles, I suppose. If I was making a campaign, I'd probably be leaning towards having fewer but bigger missiles than the current lot, kind of half way between harpoons and trebuchets...
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Unfortunately, with the discovery of the Juggys, the GTVA have very little choice but to invest in Colossus class ships, as they are the only (speedy) way to deal with a small incursion. From the GTVA's point of view, a lengthy engagement would be disastrous, as the complement of fighters and bombers carried by a Sathanas, over time, would easily overwhelm a star system.
Also, a Colossus class of ship makes a nice anchor point for a fleet. In terms of naval strategy, it also becomes a 'fleet in being', a bit like Bismarck (excuse spelling) in WW2. ('Fleet in being' is an extremely powerful ship or fleet that, if deployed, could cause serious damage to an enemy. The enemy is therefore forced to devote time and resources to find it and attack it, even if it does nothing.)
Regarding production and costs, it depends on how the Colossus was designed in the first place. In FS2, I suspect that it was to be a one of a kind trump card; but now has to be converted to mass production. Not a problem - we do it all of the time today. Think of the Nimitz class of carriers to see that it can be done.
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But the problem lies in the fact that building a fleet of Colossi would require more resources and capital than the GTVA has. Likewise, the Colossus class of vessel can't stand up to the 4 main beams of a Sathanas, none of the GTVA ships can for that matter. If you're going to lose a ship that fast anyway, why not lose smaller ones? Even the smallest of cruisers still take a beam 1 shot to kill, that means that while it takes all 4 beams on the Sathanas 2 shots to kill a Colossus those same beams could only kill 8 small cruisers in the same amount of time. Consider the costs: 1 colossus or 8 cruisers?
Small fighters doubling as bombers would also be far more effecient at dealing with Sathani than what a Colossus could do. Upscaling to match the Shivans just doesnt work when they pull out their trailer homes.
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Two very good points from LtNarol there, the second one being the most significant.
Likewise, the Colossus class of vessel can't stand up to the 4 main beams of a Sathanas ...
On this point, I would presume that standard GTVA tactics would be to scramble Helios armed bombers in the event of any Sathanas incursion and knock the main beams out. Only then bring a Colossus into the fray. (A bit tough if the Colossus is ambushed by a Juggy, though.)
On the resources issue, the GTVA are fighting for the survival of their respective speices. The threat of extinction mean that resources would be devoted to such a project, if deemed necessary.
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Originally posted by Cuttenslise
Two very good points from LtNarol there, the second one being the most significant. On this point, I would presume that standard GTVA tactics would be to scramble Helios armed bombers in the event of any Sathanas incursion and knock the main beams out. Only then bring a Colossus into the fray. (A bit tough if the Colossus is ambushed by a Juggy, though.)
On the resources issue, the GTVA are fighting for the survival of their respective speices. The threat of extinction mean that resources would be devoted to such a project, if deemed necessary.
Two problems:
1. Bombers are slow, with few exceptions and those exceptions can't carry the Helios, so as far as we're concerned, all bombers in question are slow sluggish bricks with engines strapped on their backs. Simply put: vapebait for any shivan pilot hungry for kills.
2. Even with strip mining, total economic and industrial conversion, and literal enslavement of the civilian populace, you can't pump out Colossus class vessels at a good rate, you're looking at years per ship and not months. Even assuming you can get them going at a reasonable rate, you run out of basic resources fast since a good sized moon could at best yield sufficient materials after refinement for a few such vessels. You also leave vast economic and social holes which you have to try to plug assuming you survive. Its just backing yourself into a corner :doubt:
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There's also the whole big "all your eggs" thing to consider
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Originally posted by diamondgeezer
..."all your eggs"...
...are belong to us??
:nervous:
*runs*
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The thing with the Colossus is that people want it to do what it's not meant to do. It doesn't dart in nose-to-nose with Shivan destroyers because that's not how it was designed. Just look at the turret layout for proof. You've got six huge beam cannons down each the port and starboard sides. It's like ye warships of olde (you know, the ones that float on the water) that maneuver to fire from the broadside of itself into the broadside of another ship. Put three Ravanas on each side of the Colossus, and they're meat. Put them in front of or behind the Colossus, and you've got a six kilometer long hunk of Terran-Vasudan scrap. You might want to note that that statement holds true for a lot of Terran ship designs. Just look at the turret placement on the Deimos, Iceni, Orion, etc. Most, if not all of the anti-capitalship punch comes from cannons mounted on the sides. Any ship is a lot more effective when the mission designer knows how it should be used. ;)
As for starting construction of a new Colossus immediately after Capella's destruction, it's a bad idea. The GTVA just lost an entire star system, along with a decent chunk of its workforce and consumer population. Maybe economic depression is an overstatement of what is likely to come, but the GTVA is definately doomed to a hard recession. Perhaps you could come up with the resources and labor, but if so, it would be better to use those resources to strengthen the economy before building a warship that isn't immediately necessary.
That leads to the next point. The Shivans are gone for an indefinate period, and the NTF has been crushed. For the moment, you're in a state of galactic peace, so there is no necessity for a huge warship to be built. This is a situation where a wise politician would be putting money into anything possible to get civilian manufacturing rebuilt and the number of taxpayers back up (the GTVA did just lose a whole lot of them, after all).
Finally, even if production time is halved due to equipment and designs already being prepared, the Colossus was really a twenty year old design before it even saw combat. Now, in present day navies, if a ship has run for twenty years, it's served its time and is due to be replaced by something less....well....obsolete. Building a new Colossus after the Capella incident would be roughly equivilant to me buying a Pentium 75MHz priced as new.
All said, a new Colossus would be a really bad idea. I've seen some better ideas rolling about campaigns in development though. New ship classes are probably the best idea. Carriers are a nice idea, as Juggernauts would have a hard time standing up against a determined squadron of Helios-equipped bombers with fighter escort. (Remember, future heavy bombers would likely be designed with the Helios in mind, simply because its bigger and badder than the Cyclops. As for bombers being slow, juggernauts don't exactly outpace the Perseus either. :P) Another idea would be increased specialization in capital ships. If you strip most of the anti-fighter defenses off a corvette, you can allocate more power to anti-warship beams, giving you a nifty little frigate capable of downing far larger capital ships. Likewise, if you yank the anti-warship equipment from a cruiser, you can beef up power to engines and tack on even more anti-fighter turrets to make an escort frigate.
The Colossus was a demonstration that bigger is not always better (though, it is more impressive when you see it just jump in and vape a corvette in one shot). Now, before you tout the Sathanas, remember it's not much better in any way. It's just designed for the kind of frontal assault that some people like to put juggernauts up to. I daresay the Sathanas is actually more vulnerable to bomber attack, but that's a train of thought for another day.
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We agree on more points than not, but on your suggestion of bombers, I must refute. Faster than Sathani big bombers may be, faster than those annoying things called enemy fighters (particularly the basilisk, as they have a good number of missiles) they are not. Thus, bombers, even with fighter escort, would have trouble getting through the shear number of enemy fighters Shivan trailer homes tend to carry. ;)
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Unless you have Alpha One as the fighter escort. In High Noon, for example, Cancer Wing would have destroyed a wing of fighter cover for your Bakhas, but had you been flying fighter escort instead of bombers, you could easily have kept the Shivans at bay long enough for the bombers to wreak havoc. The disadvantage would be that the AI bombers would not have prosecuted the Sathanas' beam with such prejudice, but that's the FS2 AI for you...
Sucking up to the boss aside, I'm sticking with Aldo's philosophy - taking fighters and bombers off the destroyers allows destroyers to be much tougher, dedicated anti-cap weapons whilst the new carrier classes can carry many more combat craft than a size-equvilent destroyer. Okay, you have to build two ships instead of one, but the carriers are relatively cheap (fighter assests aside), and each ship is far better at its assigned task than the old-style destroyers ever where. By combining the destroyer and carrier as the lynch-pin of a battle group, you increase both flexibility and offensive power :nod:
My plan for dealing with a Sathanas would be to fill the sky with bombers and fighter escort. Capital ships could hang back and give long-range beam support, retreating if threatened, but the brunt of the work wouild be done with bombers. Perhaps they would target a specific system such as the main beams or the engines, rather than to simply try and destroy the thing, but one the enemy was disarmed or disabled you could bring in caps to finish it off at leisure, bringing fighters back to cover your own warships. Easy money :nod:
*feels the need to write some Sathanas-killing missions...*
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If you put two wings of escort on one wing of medium/heavy bombers, you'd be surprised how well the bombers do, assuming they stick around the rear of the Sathanas, where it can contribute almost no anti-fighter fire of its own. Yes, the fighter bay is right there, but in that position, the escort can shoot fighters down practically as soon as they exit the bay. With the Sathanas, it's all about approach. Once you're in close, it's fairly easy to defend yourself and continue bombing, and that being the case, you just need a little bit of time and a diligent support ship.
It would still take a large number of fighters and bombers to survive the approach though, hence the need/desire for a dedicated carrier class vessel. Something almost destroyer size with a fighterbay taking up a third to half the innards...
Of course, a little creative use of a Meson Bomb does the trick even better than those dinky Helios. ;)
Sorry... That was shameless of me. I'm going to go sit in the corner and think about how I can feel less guilty about that next time.
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Originally posted by diamondgeezer
...'m sticking with Aldo's philosophy - taking fighters and bombers off the destroyers allows destroyers to be much tougher, dedicated anti-cap weapons whilst the new carrier classes can carry many more combat craft than a size-equvilent destroyer. Okay, you have to build two ships instead of one, but the carriers are relatively cheap (fighter assests aside), and each ship is far better at its assigned task than the old-style destroyers ever where. By combining the destroyer and carrier as the lynch-pin of a battle group, you increase both flexibility and offensive power :nod:
There is, after all, a reason why modern naval battlegroups are arranged the way they are: Destroyers are much better at being, well, destroyers when they don't need to worry about fighter launch/recovery. Carriers are much better at launching wings of fighters when they don't have to trade broadsides with enemy capital ships. Aldo is dead on. 100%.
Not only that, but a carrier should carry one hell of a lot more fighters than a destroyer AND be able to stay well back from the lines. Meanwhile, cruisers and destroyers get in the juggernauts face (and flanks) to distract it and the enemy fighter screen and provide cover for the incoming waves of superiority and bomber craft launched by the carriers.
Mind you, I don't want to be on that carrier when the Sathanas commander is the one picking the terms of the engagement.
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Originally posted by BlueFlames
Sorry... That was shameless of me. I'm going to go sit in the corner and think about how I can feel less guilty about that next time.
don't appologize...that is merely normal here on HLP :D
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Personally, I think that going specialized might be smart. The Colossus was designed to be a bit of everything. Anti-cap weapon, anti-figher abilities, and a massive figher bay. The combination rendered it too huge to be really effective at anything. I think that the ships need to be smaller, and more specialized.
First, I would make anti-bomb weapons. Beams are good, but bombs don't dodge. I'd take the standard 'laser' turrets, make them weaker, and pump up their firing rate. That should take care of the bombs. It would also allow the hull to have enhanced protection against energy weapons, if the risk of kinetic weapons is reduced.
Then, all the ships would serve more specific roles. There would be a carrier. It would be large, and equipped well enough so that it could handle a cruiser or a handful of fighter or bomber wings on its own, but its strength would be in massive fighter/bomber complement.
An anti-cap ship would be a must. It would have good anti-bomb defence, with anti-fighter weapons limited to close range combat. Even so, it would neccesarily weak against fighters. However, it would be equipped massive anti-cap beams and torps. I would probably put most of the beams in the forward arc, with some smaller cruiser defense beams on other firing arcs. I would balance it with high turning mobility, though. It may not need to be super fast, as it's not targeting highly mobile targets that could outrun it, but it would need a high turning rate, so as to make sure that it can always train its most powerful weapons on the target.
Next, the anti-fighter cruiser. It would probably be the smallest. It's defenses would be 360° as well. Fighter beams would probably be the main armament, along with the given anti-bomb turrets. It would be fast and maneuvorable, so as to quickly get to where it is needed.
Obviously, these ships would all need to work together, but it might be possible, since it would also be easier to customise a task force to a given assignment.
Each ship would be modular, so that parts can be quickly built, assembled, and repaired. They would also be highly automated, thus reducing overall size and crew complement.
This is just my idea, rather disjointed at this relatively late hour, but my idea nontheless.
2 cents over...
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Originally posted by JudgeMental
I'd take the standard 'laser' turrets, make them weaker, and pump up their firing rate.
*shamelessly points to CapShip Turret Upgrade link in siggy*
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sandwich couldnt say it better with his ARROW!
"look south of the sandwich young lad... see the link... see the link...!"
those turrets are hot u guys should try em sometime, the fire rate makes the game more intense.
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Originally posted by Carl
one death star could superlaser all 100 sathani.
i think that's are solution. the GTVA should build a death star.
...
what? :confused:
Or why not contact the borg? Or build a sun crusher? Or ask Piccard to lend us his tractor beams and push them into a star? Or get a cloaking device from the Romulans or Klingons...
If you could bring StarWars or Star Trek into this, the possibilities are endless... IIRC the first Death Star had some 6,000,000 crew... And it was 120 km in diamiter... thats 20 Colossuss'...
So then why even shoot? Just get the thing in the middle of a 1500 meter jump node and hollow out the inside. Fill the inside with tractor beams, bombs, beams, and akhaton sdg's... and make part of the hull into a capship plant... use debris from destroyed vessels...
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My money says this thread will never die
*waits for Shrike to close it in the next post*
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Originally posted by BlueFlames
I daresay the Sathanas is actually more vulnerable to bomber attack, but that's a train of thought for another day.
This is very true. I am in the process of finishing a mission that proves this very point.
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I tried a little scenario once, i put about 80 assorted bombers against a sathanas. About 1/3rd survived, the sathanas was destroyed eventually. Its not really practical for a mission though because of re-supplying that many bombers takes ages, even with multiple support craft.
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I was thinking - If you could disarm the back end of A Sathannas, even partially, you could have something like the Iceni (which has side mounted beams) move around behind it by synchronizing it's waypoint speeds with the Sath's rotation. No BFReds = Toasty Sathannas in relatively short order :D
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As long as another one doesn't jump in as back up... :shaking:
Look at it this way - how easy would the two Sathanas mission have been without the Shivan fighters? If only the Allies had provided decent fighter cover, your bombers could have dispatched the flak and beams with ease in the first one, then pummeled the bloody thing in the second one... easy money :nod:
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heh...alls that you really need to take down a sath is a horde of about 20 fenris coming in from behind. I think I tried that once...
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Me thinks, outfit a couple corvettes with Mjinor beam turrets, there low damage rate but constant rate of fire makes them better then standard big damage but once every 35 second shooting beams loosers...
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Well that depends. Fixed Mjolnir beams do ~90,000 dmg/min, but Mjolnir#home beams only do ~48,000 dmg/min. I guess the simplified fixed-beam mechanism lets them pump more power.
(stats thanks to the Beam FAQ (http://home.att.net/~clay.h/fs2/beamfaq.htm), natch)
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You can't go wrong with Mjolnirs. :)
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NOW U KNOW IF WE WERE THE SECURITY COUNCIL OR CONGRESS FOR THE GTVA WE'D GO CRAZY! hell THE NTF WOULDA WON LOL......... and shh we got a spy, he's a Shivan and he's an admin heheh:thepimp:in this thread...
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I think there should be a class called a Dreadnought which is like a mobile weapons platform. Here are the basic ideas behind it:
Rather large (Orion size or larger, but smaller than a Sath)
No fighterbay or very small one
Limited mobility
Beam turrets all over the ship so that there is no escape from the beams--both AAA and anti-warship beams in large numbers
150,000-1,000,000 hitpoints (depends on size)
At least one LRBGreen or BFGreen/Red/Vas/Purple (Ancient ships have purple beams)
*Dn designation (GTDn, GVDn, NTDn, SDn, etc.)
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You do realize that you bumped a 4 month old thread, right? And that such actions are not exactly looked upon favorably? :doubt:
Originally posted by diamondgeezer
My money says this thread will never die
Oh, the irony!!! :lol:
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:wtf: again? This one gets..
(http://www.3dap.com/hlp/hosted/datdb/KT/WW.gif)
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Originally posted by Knight Templar
:wtf: again? This one gets..
(http://www.3dap.com/hlp/hosted/datdb/KT/WW.gif)
:lol: Some people never seem to learn.
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Originally posted by diamondgeezer
My money says this thread will never die
*waits for Shrike to close it in the next post*
Excellent call DG!:D
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I think the idea of massive capital ships is compeltely bogus and absolutely wasteful and retarded. The only cap ships that should exist are ships solely designed to carry fighters and bombers. If you notice, cruisers are a compelte waste, a destroyers are a compelte waste (Ravana Mission) and massive Juggernauts like the Colossus is a big waste. (30,000 people vanished in less than a minute) ITs just like our modern warfare of today: big battleships are too costly and ineffective for them to be build like they are in FS2. You know the mission where you are in a vasudan bomber and you have to take out the Sathanas's turrets? Now, if you took those out and had the node blockaded by those new mobile beam turrets shooting at the engines of the Sathanas, the ship would be disabled and very easy to capture and or destroy. What i dont get is why the GTVA didnt attempt to disable and capture the Sathanas in Capella.
Instead of blowing trillions and trillions of currency on a ship that canbe vaporized very quickly and cost 30,000 lives a pop, the GTVA should invest much more in those beam turrets and make them mobile and more powerful.
Also, if the Colossus was ever to be rebuilt, they should screw the small turrets and flak crap, turn the whole ship into one big reactor and heat sink, and go all out with Large beam turrets: about 50-70 beam turrets. No fighterbay, no big crew, no little dinky guns... THE BIG GUNS. And then have deimos and aeolus class corvettes and cruisers guard it, but strip the big guns from the Deimos and Aeolus and make them specifically anti-fighter machines. See my point? The Sathanas has 4 big guns that dish out more damage than all of the Colossus's guns. If the COlossus had 60-70 guns, you ould place 2 near the Gamma Draconis Node inside Capella and fry each Sathanas as it comes it :) That way, the SHivans could never take over Capella no matter what they sent. Have fighter and bomber wings just in case the shivans get smart enough to send in a few Saraphims and Taurvis. Then when the 80 Juggernauts are gone, send the new Colossus's into the Knossos 2 sector and beyond trashing everything with an enemy IFF signature.
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let it die....please.....
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Originally posted by Carl
that would be nice, it would also be nice if an apollo could fire the shivan super laser. if you want to carry a big weapon, you need a big ship. you can't just stick a beam on anything and expect it to work.
*ahem*
http://descenteer.home.mindspring.com/SuperAten1.jpg
http://descenteer.home.mindspring.com/SuperAten2.jpg
http://descenteer.home.mindspring.com/SuperAten3.jpg
:D :D :D
Sorry, just had to be posted...
I did those a long time ago, during a spell of boredom...
*edit*
OK OK, I'll let it die too, as requested...
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{Data voice} Actually, captain, this brings up an interesting point -- {/Data voice}
{Complete Nex-Gen bridge crew voices}Data, shut up!{/Complete Nex-Gen bridge crew voices}
:D