General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Mortex on February 28, 2003, 04:25:40 am
Title: Colossus question
Post by: Mortex on February 28, 2003, 04:25:40 am
The Colossus cut scene we see the GTVA's 'greatest' warship docked with two(?) Ganymede rings in the late stages of construction.
Does anyone know or can hazard a guess at where this is taking place? Which system, or even shipyard?
Title: Colossus question
Post by: pyro-manic on February 28, 2003, 06:55:24 am
Doesn't it say in the cutscene voiceover?
I can't remember. I use FS2_open, so I haven't watched them for ages. If it doesn't say, then I'd guess it would probably be in one of the heavily industrialised systems with big shipyards and lots of resources. They wouldn't build a new yard just for the Colossus - they'd have to expand an existing one to fit it in.
Title: Colossus question
Post by: diamondgeezer on February 28, 2003, 08:27:29 am
But the question of whether or not the project was kept secret was never answered. The GTVA could not have used a regular shipyard for a classified project as big as Colossus, but on the other hand it seems unlikely they could have kept it secret at all given the project's immense scale.
Title: Colossus question
Post by: Solatar on February 28, 2003, 08:52:50 am
Considering all the Civilian contractors, I'd say it wasn't classified.
It says there were dozens from both species, hinting that they weren't all military.
Title: Colossus question
Post by: Knight Templar on February 28, 2003, 11:06:55 am
This was just brought up in another thread somewhere.
I think it was somewhere along the lines that the colossus wasn't really secret, but the state of it's construction (how far done it was) and its location were kept classified. I'd Assume especially during the NTF war.
Title: Colossus question
Post by: Petrarch of the VBB on February 28, 2003, 12:33:36 pm
Surely it would be hard to classify something of such proportions.
Isn't the shipyard in orbit around a planet? An inhabited planet? If you look at the official V desktop of the colossus construction, there's definitely a planet.
Title: Colossus question
Post by: CP5670 on February 28, 2003, 03:01:43 pm
The planet looks a little like the Cygnus Prime one, which is in Deneb, but I'm not sure if that means anything since they probably just used any planet model they had while making that cutscene.
Title: Colossus question
Post by: Mortex on February 28, 2003, 03:10:23 pm
Like knight Templar says, its likely the exact specifications and progress of construction were a secret. IMHO the populace would have known something was going on even if the couldn’t get close enough to find out exactly what.
With regard to civilian corporations don't we do this now? Isn’t that what no disclosure agreements/official secrets act (UK) are for? And with so many contractors involved would they have necessarily had a complete picture? With Subach building the beam cannons and Aketon corp building the engines or what ever would an individual corporation have known exactly what the GTVA were putting together?
So no ones going to hazard a guess at where? ;)
Title: Colossus question
Post by: StratComm on February 28, 2003, 03:29:48 pm
I think CP already did, Deneb in orbit around Cygnus Prime. The other possibility is that it was constructed over Vasuda Prime (isn't it :v: canon that the GTVA had a large shipyard there?) and so the planet would no longer be considered inhabited.
Title: Colossus question
Post by: beatspete on February 28, 2003, 03:32:27 pm
oooO! Just checked the cut scene: all the information about it is classified, Level Rho i think, and nice Mr Konsu II announced it to the GTVA security council - not exactly the public.
Title: Colossus question
Post by: Mortex on February 28, 2003, 03:38:22 pm
StratComm, I think me and CP cross posted. Course that means it took me nine minutes to write my post :o
humm, In Deneb... the NTF might have tried to sabotage the Colossus before it was finished, if they new about it.
Title: Colossus question
Post by: Goober5000 on February 28, 2003, 06:03:38 pm
I think he addressed the General Assembly, which would make it public. Probably people knew about the project itself, but not the technical specs.
Title: Colossus question
Post by: Eishtmo on March 02, 2003, 07:36:33 pm
Since we don't know the extent of shipyards within the GTVA, its hard to say. As far as I can recall, there is only one mentioned, that in Altair. I would assume that, given a lack of any other options, that is where the Colossus was built.
Title: Colossus question
Post by: diamondgeezer on March 02, 2003, 08:18:14 pm
What's always bugged me is that Bosch would have known about the Big C even if it was a secret, being an Admiral and all.
Title: Colossus question
Post by: Knight Templar on March 02, 2003, 09:04:36 pm
It could have been a bigger secret. They might and probably didn't go around telling all thier admirals unless they assigned to guard it.
Title: Colossus question
Post by: Alikchi on March 02, 2003, 11:26:41 pm
Ein 2365 or whenever, how many people go around in space on a regular basis and check for hidden installations? Since there was no need for real secrecy (at least until the NTF war) they probably just swore the press or random passerby who found the Colossus shipyards to secrecy. If anyone talked they be labeled as a loony; "NO, SERIOUSLY! THEY'RE BUILDING A SUPER MEGA SHIP THE SIZE OF, LIKE, HALF A DOZEN LUCIFERS! I SWEAR! ..hey, where are you going?"
Title: Colossus question
Post by: Petrarch of the VBB on March 03, 2003, 06:33:52 am
Just like area 51.
Title: Colossus question
Post by: Mortex on March 03, 2003, 08:14:58 am
Quote
Just like area 51.
I'd had the same thought, Sector 51 a top secret GTVA ship yard. :D
Regarding Bosch knowing about the Colossus it was only classified level Rho, As an admiral he would have had that level of clearance sorely.
Title: Colossus question
Post by: J3Vr6 on March 03, 2003, 08:35:08 am
Well, I personally think that Bosch probably knew. But the Colossus and the installation were probably extremely heavily defended. Remember, this was the flagship of the GTVA, and the biggest joint venture between terrans and vasudans, so they would have put everyone and their mother defending it who weren't committed to other parts of space. With the size and amount of people actually working on it, it wouldn't have been a secret for too long. It just would have been too much of a hassle to actually do anything about it.
Plus, guys, the cut scene and the game doens't say anywhere that it was never attacked or never had an attempted sabotage. You never know, maybe there were attempts to take out the installation, and maybe even Bosch tried to impede construction.
Would be a great campagin, actually... You're committed to defend the Colossus and the installation while construction... Watch those transports that are coming... they could be loaded with high-yielding explosives...
Title: Colossus question
Post by: Petrarch of the VBB on March 03, 2003, 08:41:13 am
Quote
Originally posted by J3Vr6 With the size and amount of people actually working on it, it wouldn't have been a secret for too long.
But it would be so departmentalised that people at the bottom of the chain would not know what the overall project on. Think about when the Versalife workers are talking in the LuckeyMoney in DeusEx.
Title: Colossus question
Post by: Galemp on March 03, 2003, 08:45:16 am
Quote
Originally posted by Petrarch of the VBB Think about when the Versalife workers are talking in the LuckeyMoney in DeusEx.
:wtf: Or, think about the British workers building the first Tank. They didn't know they were building Tanks, they thought they were building tanks. That's why Tanks are called tanks.
Title: Colossus question
Post by: Petrarch of the VBB on March 03, 2003, 08:49:06 am
Ahh yes, a far better example, thanks GE, I went temporaarily brain dead.
Title: Colossus question
Post by: Knight Templar on March 03, 2003, 10:17:22 am
Quote
Originally posted by GalacticEmperor
:wtf: Or, think about the British workers building the first Tank. They didn't know they were building Tanks, they thought they were building tanks. That's why Tanks are called tanks.
:wtf: They thought they were building tanks, but they were really building Tanks?
I got tank [as in battletank] but what other tank did they think they were making? :p
Title: Colossus question
Post by: Mortex on March 03, 2003, 10:21:11 am
My History is a bit fuzzy but tanks as in water tanks, large containers for liquid.
Title: Colossus question
Post by: Knight Templar on March 03, 2003, 10:42:38 am
oh..
They must have thought they'd be needing to design some pretty tough water tanks then... :doubt:
Title: Colossus question
Post by: J3Vr6 on March 03, 2003, 11:12:04 am
You're definitely right. I don't think they would have told everyone exactly what they were building. You only have to tell them the specs you need and have them build it.
But they weren't building something as small (in terms of scale compared to FS) as a tank. They were building this huge, massive ship. People would have talked, I'm sure. Maybe not the high-ups in the corporations, but the lowly blue collar worker who's screwing in 1 foot screws would probably hit the bar after work and chatter about it. You don't think people would have gotten curious on why they were building engines that was possibly 3 times the size of any other engine designed before? Or any other subsystem for that matter.
I'm sure rumors would have abound the shipyards and other stations about the GTVA building something... Something big. I'm just throwing that out there. I will admit and say I don't know a thing about confidentiality agreements and skunk projects, but I'm sure stories in the watering holes would have been told around.
Bosch I'm sure would have known. Even if he didn't have clearance to outright know, he's been in the GTA long enough and knows enough people to have had inside info before he defected.
Maybe I'm just talking out of my ass :blah:
Title: Colossus question
Post by: Mortex on March 03, 2003, 03:43:43 pm
Quote
They must have thought they'd be needing to design some pretty tough water tanks then...
I did some digging on this and a number of sources agree that the reason they where called tanks was because their shape made them look like giant water tanks. Not necessarily because the workers thought they were building water tanks. Seems like the navy was first involved in developing them as so called land ships. Truth is stranger than fiction.
Like I said my history was a little fuzzy :D
J3Vr6, I rearly like your take on this. Don't mind if I 'develop'some of your ideas do you. :wink:
Title: Colossus question
Post by: J3Vr6 on March 03, 2003, 04:30:21 pm
Go right ahead, don't mind if you do. I love Freespace and it's universe but I could never make the time to make a campaign or even try to make a single mission. I just always thought that would be interesting as a story line/campaign. Perhaps make some missions as buys someones loyalty on the project and you have to stop a ship from warping out with plans or whatever. Even some patrol missions where you're looking for snoopers or the media. Or even the other way around, where you're trying to figure out what the heck the GTVA is building out there. Whatever, that's your job :) Just let me play it when you're done ;)
Just a question that could relate to this: What about the media in this future? We're not connected to the Sol system, but I'm sure there is some sort of press out there. Is the GTVA a controlling government that runs media or are there independent press agencies? If that's the case, I'm sure some news might have leaked out about the Colossus. I remember when the Stealth Fighter/Bomber was still a skunk project. But everyone really knew about it because of press leaks a while before. They just didn't know it's full capabilities (only that it could be invisible to radar) or specs.
Um, I have no idea how i put that field in the middle of my post, but that was supposed to say: INPUT EVIL VILLAIN HERE
Sorry about that.
Title: Colossus question
Post by: aldo_14 on March 03, 2003, 04:52:17 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Mortex
I did some digging on this and a number of sources agree that the reason they where called tanks was because their shape made them look like giant water tanks. Not necessarily because the workers thought they were building water tanks. Seems like the navy was first involved in developing them as so called land ships. Truth is stranger than fiction.
Like I said my history was a little fuzzy :D
J3Vr6, I rearly like your take on this. Don't mind if I 'develop'some of your ideas do you. :wink:
I thought they'd been labelled as water tanks for secret shipping to the front lines..........at least, that's what I've been told.
Title: Colossus question
Post by: Hippo on March 03, 2003, 06:22:08 pm
evrything was probably shiped under an alias... Crew quarters could be pre-fab. and shipped in standard cargo containers, that are welded together at the site and have holes cut in them...
Title: Colossus question
Post by: Eishtmo on March 03, 2003, 07:16:50 pm
I doubt the project was a secret, and likely suffered several disasters (20 years to build? Something had to have happened). There are, though, probably two reasons Bosch never went after it.
1) He didn't care. Remember, the NTF was a cover to recover ETAK, so what if the Colossus blew them all to kingdom come?
2) He didn't think it was ready. I could be wrong, but I believe the Colossus wasn't completly ready to go. Problems with the launch bays aside, this is a big ship, and the odds that its shakedown was complete is pretty low. Bosch probably thought they had plenty of time before Command would risk their prize in combat. Then the NTF started doing well in the war, which brings us back to #1.
Title: Colossus question
Post by: Knight Templar on March 03, 2003, 07:35:54 pm
Well it might also be then that he wanted the colossus to vape the NTF, as if it wouldn't, then there would kinda be a big mess when bosch faded into the shivan love slave scene.
I don't know if I think/remember if Bosch really hated the GTVA as much as he led the NTF to beleive they should hate to GTVA to fuel the war. Odds are he didn't have much against them other than them being in the way of ETAK and maybe angry at them a little for 'supressing the future' or something for that affect.
Title: Colossus question
Post by: Stealth on March 03, 2003, 08:42:04 pm
Quote
Originally posted by J3Vr6 Perhaps make some missions as buys someones loyalty on the project and you have to stop a ship from warping out with plans or whatever.
Um, I have no idea how i put that field in the middle of my post, but that was supposed to say: INPUT EVIL VILLAIN HERE
Sorry about that.
it did that because you used the HTML brace (pointy bracket) and "input"... which makes an input field ;)
don't worry, it happens to the best of us :D
Title: Colossus question
Post by: Exarch on March 04, 2003, 11:51:02 am
Bosch in all likelyhood knew all there was to know about the readiness of the Colossus - he did have a saboteur planted on board, after all, for when it tried to prevent him from passing through the Knossos portal. As has been mentioned though, he probably just didn't care about it as long as it didn't directly interfere with his plans for contacting the Shivans. Nor did he care much for the NTF or their fate, as long as they kept the GTVA attention off his real plans for long enough to carry them out.
Nor do I remember seeing any indications in the campaign that he is actually opposed to the GTVA as such, rather than just fighting them out of necessity due to them being in his way, and as such he would have nothing to gain from destroying the Colossus. It would just weaken the GTVA against the Shivans, which despite his ETAK plans I doubt he would want. After all ETAK might fail in contacting them, leaving war as the last resort. And he doesn't seem to be after the destruction of the human race, but actually rather seems to be seeking a non-violent way to end the conflict.
Of course that doesn't seem very likely with the Shivans, but still, we never found out what happened to him so I guess you never know. He could be in some distant system trying to convince the Shivans to just let the Terrans and Vasudans have their little solitary bubble of space to themselves right now. Perhaps that's even why the Shivans blew up Capella, instead of just sending those 80 Sathanas through to Vega or Epsilon Pegasi...
Title: Colossus question
Post by: Hippo on March 04, 2003, 03:02:46 pm
WELCOME TO THE HLPBB!!! Exits are to the rear and left, but their locked, so use your head to bash them open. Shotguns and flamethrowers are under the seats, though neither work. Beware of 5 legged things crawling around you, but if its named Carl, give him some food and he won't hurt you.
Someone put the green beam in somewhere...
Title: Colossus question
Post by: Mortex on March 07, 2003, 06:44:14 pm
Regarding the location of the Colossus' construction I found this in the Ships.tbl
"The GTI Ganymede is the Alliance's newest repair and resupply facility. Ganymede installations are currently deployed behind the front lines in the Vega, Vasuda, and Capella systems."
So as the cut scene clearly shows the Colossus docked with Ganymede rings then its construction must have taken place at one of these 3 locations.
Probably... :nervous:
Title: Colossus question
Post by: Knight Templar on March 07, 2003, 07:46:29 pm
My guess is vasuda, as the other two would be heavily populated.
... if we are going by the ganymede tables.
Title: Colossus question
Post by: Petrarch of the VBB on March 08, 2003, 01:45:39 pm
I doubt that it's Vasuda. Vasuda is a sort of junction, isn't it, people pass through it all the time. it would be somewhere out of the way, like Mirfax.
In fact, Mirfax has a node to Epsilon Pegasi (I think) and the first Deployment of the colossus is in Epsilon Pegasi, so Mirfax is probably where it was built.
Title: Colossus question
Post by: karajorma on March 08, 2003, 02:43:28 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Petrarch of the VBB I doubt that it's Vasuda. Vasuda is a sort of junction, isn't it, people pass through it all the time. it would be somewhere out of the way, like Mirfax.
In fact, Mirfax has a node to Epsilon Pegasi (I think) and the first Deployment of the colossus is in Epsilon Pegasi, so Mirfax is probably where it was built.
I don`t know about Vasuda Prime being a good candidate. Although the planet is lifeless I`d imagine it's treated somewhat like Ground Zero in New York. Any civilians passing through the system would want to visit there (especially Vasudans of course).
That said are there any other planets in Vasuda? For that matter who needs a planet? Simply park a few hundred million km above or below the plane of the system. No one would ever look there. :)
Title: Colossus question
Post by: AnnihilaterD on March 08, 2003, 03:08:26 pm
It couldnt have been common knowledge as when you say it for the first time in that mission to defend that instalation against the ntf no-one knew what it was and command had to send a signal telling us to calm down or something like that. Another real life is the mulberry harbours in ww2 (the floating things they took accross to France so big ships could unload cargo). Thay were such a big project that just 1, in addition to tother construction, streched the uk's industry to the limit and no one knew what they were until they were deployed. The colosous could have been built in smaller sections before being put together at the very last stage, just like the harbours were. (they were only built when they were in position in France)