Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: diamondgeezer on November 02, 2003, 02:08:23 am
-
I'm in a spot of bother with the S:AAB mod for HomeWorld team. They're not best pleased with the blatant nickage of their stuff. So to set the record straight for any one here who didn't know or hadn't guessed (due to my lack of modelling talent), the models on display at my site are not my originals. All I did was convert them and bugger about with the textures a bit. They were 'aquired' for me by another HLPite and I don't have credits for them (I'm looking to research a bit there).
I apologise completely to the HW lads. Sorry guys.
-
Funny that fellow S:AAB fans would jump on you like that wether you were being a dick or not. You'd think they'd want to keep the idea alive.
-
Heh. Like how we jumped on the HomeWorld guys? :rolleyes:
-
It's only fair that they get recognition for their work but it's not like DG ever said the models were his work so like the Freelancer thread it will most likely be another storm in a teacup.
-
I told you you shoulda asked.
-
An important lesson I guess... if you're going to build upon somone elses work (or just plain steal it - not implying you did but it's how it could be viewed). Ask them first. Some might be honored that their work is being put to use elsewhere, but some might feel it was stolen from them. Ask and avoid the trouble :)
-
Originally posted by Raa Tor'h
Heh. Like how we jumped on the HomeWorld guys? :rolleyes:
Hey, I didn't jump on anyone so :p
-
This should go into the FAQ.
-
It was never Diamond Geezer's fault, it was MINE alone!
I was the one who converted the models to a general format for him to use without his knowledge until recently of where they came from...
So here in public I wipe DG's hands clean and dirty my own name (Though I had palnned on tracking down teh mod credits from the HW mod and attaching them as original model source and also talking to them BEFORE the demoe was ready to be relased and definately before the full mod was released... For now it was a project between a very few individuals to see if it could be done.
ANY and all blame should be directed sorely at me, though I apologise I make no excuses as a fan of the show.. In fact I will and will continue to do the same for ANY show,movie, or series I deem worthy of them enigne FS2... As long as proper credit is given (as stated in MOST of the mod credits included in the downloads...) It may be a TECHNICALITY that no other games are mentioned in the usage or non usage so I took it for face value, proper credit WOULD be given, period...
Now if people think I should be ostracized or turned into a pariah for it, fine.... It's not like people are breaking down my door to help with MY projects anyway. BUT I do not want my actions or association to hurt DG and his furture and contributions within the community.
Sincerely,
Star Dragon...
-
Awefully big of you. I take my hat off to you.
-
I'll take off my toupe' (sp?)
-
Well thanks for the support Dragon mate, but the responsibility for publishing the things was mine. I never really asked you where you got them. It comes back to me as the guy actually making the mod.
But heroism aside, the HW guys have accepted my apology and are now having a (snigger) mass debate as to whether or not to allow me to use their models. Bear in mind that if they say no, the chances of a S:AAB mod for FS2 are reduced to about 0.003%.
-
Originally posted by diamondgeezer
But heroism aside, the HW guys have accepted my apology and are now having a (snigger) mass debate as to whether or not to allow me to use their models. Bear in mind that if they say no, the chances of a S:AAB mod for FS2 are reduced to about 0.003%.
Unless someone else models the ships, correct? :)
-
Are you using the Hammerhead from Aldo's modeldump?
-
don't want to be harsh guys, but if you have a model not done by you, well somebody else had to do it.
Models just don't grow alone as mushrooms....
to verify their source, and the possibility to use them is ALWAYS a must, not to mention that contacting an author before using his artwork (even if you already have permission), is a form of respect
-
That said, no man stands taller than he who can stand corrected, so kudos for admitting the oversight :)
Flipside :D
-
Look, we really do not want our work being taken from us and used in other mods or websites. Period. There was NO permission given by any of us because your party decided NOT to contact us regarding the usage of our material in any way, shape, or form. It does not pay to be sneaky in the modding community, fellas.
Maybe, JUST maybe, we would have given permission if you would have asked. But since you already screwed up, there is no chance now.
Like I said before, I am sorry. Good luck with your project, and if you would like some pointers for your mod or need SAAB expertise, drop by the SAAB: Homeworld forum and ask.
Just consider what you have learned from this experience. Sucks to learn lessons the hard way.
-
Feel the love, boys and girls.
-
Originally posted by Black Wolf
Are you using the Hammerhead from Aldo's modeldump?
God...I'd forgotten about that. I'm still quite proud of my only attempt so far at 'copied' work - especially as it's probably more accurate, a lot more 'tightly' modelled and far better mapped than the 10k+ model I initially used for a reference.
Map needs darkened a bit, though - albeit the actual rivets, etc are pretty much in the exact same place as the TV model.
-
So much for the friendly modding community and the sharing of knowledge and an attempt to build undestanding across the great divide......
I can understand them being annoyed, that is understandable, however, I'm not sure I like the tone of Jason8472... 'My Mod! My Mod! Nurdy Nurdy nur nur!'.
Possibly something along the lines of 'Sorry to let you down, but this Mod is the property of the Homeworld community and we would rather you didn't use it. Had your team contacted us, before starting it may have been possible that we would have allowed you to use the data, however, next time please bear in mind that doing so would have been considered more polite'.
It doesn't say anything different, it also doesn't sound like an 8 year old complaining that someone else is playing with his Action Man.
Flipside.
-
I'm not even gonna mention Fair Use as it'd just be too ironic.
-
Originally posted by aldo_14
God...I'd forgotten about that. I'm still quite proud of my only attempt so far at 'copied' work - especially as it's probably more accurate, a lot more 'tightly' modelled and far better mapped than the 10k+ model I initially used for a reference.
Map needs darkened a bit, though - albeit the actual rivets, etc are pretty much in the exact same place as the TV model.
See this boys and Girls? You know you've gotten complacent in your own skills when you can forget a mod that'd be a crowning glory for almost any other modder in the community :p
-
If I had the time DG, I would offer to lend a hand where I could with the S:AAB Mod, and I've never even watched the series!
Maybe in a couple of months :)
Flipside :D
-
I was going to repost my apolgy in their forum, but I guess it's a moot point now...
-
Sorry if I came off as sounding like a tight ass, but we have had others ask us if they may use our material, and we have said no. I do not model or handle in game subjects. Spooky and Thursday are the primary game modelers. Jeff makes the high poly meshes and textures that they work from. Spooky and Thursday have had instances where someone took their work and used it in their own work without permission. They were very stoked at that and rarely give permission to use their material. Im sure you can see why now.
Being a S:AAB fan, I can most definitely relate to having more S:AAB games/mods out there on the net. It almost saddens me to see that no one else has taken advantage of the qualities of S:AAB and put them into a game, period.
And as for acting like a child, as was said by someone here but dont remember his/her handle, we most certainly are not. I would like to see this team make their own material, have it taken from them and put into someone else's mod, not have them informed that the material was taken, and then see how THEY feel. Plus, Geezer didnt have the balls to put a link up on his website even AFTER he found out that we found out our material was being used by someone else without permission.
You have to see 2 sides of the coin here. I will be giving Spooky and Thursday the link to this thread in hopes they might be able to clear up some things and maybe to add the way they personally feel.
And any of you would like to comment on the thread that I started at my forum about this subject....
http://www.thegamingunion.co.uk/Forum/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=17;t=000412
feel free.
-
Well this has turned into a right Royal ****up.
-
Gotta luv teh intarnat
-
Honestly, that's got to be the most snobbish, stuck-up community standard I've ever heard of. Granted, it's usually best to go ahead and seek permissions before using other people's work. However, by the simple facts that 1) these meshes are not the original work of their creators but rather almost certainly unpermissioned copies of someone elses designs, and 2) the fact that these models are available without hacking their computers is generally more than enough grounds to assume that they are for public use. All the FS:AAB mod did was convert them from homeworld meshes, right? I don't see how "ripping" them is grounds for a **** off letter, or such a defensive "our content, our content" whine. Really now people, grow up. That's not really any different than converting a model from Homeworld, with the sole exception that these models are not credited to the homeworld staff so crediting them properly takes research. Unless of course they were somehow planning to make money on the deal, in which case I say go right ahead and see how long it takes both Sierra and whoever produced S:AAB to sue their asses off. They are right, this is a modding community. By that fact we assume that we all would rather see our work reach as broad an audience as possible, and should take the use of our work by others (so long as it is properly credited) as a both a form of flattery and of publicity for the rest of your work. If they want to be dicks about it and deny permission now, then that's their problem, but they would never have given the permissions to begin with from the responses they are giving here and in their own forums. For that matter, since they are a part of a public mod, don't they practically lose claim to the models anyway? Unless they went to the trouble of making them legally theirs by copyrighting them or whatever (which they couldn't do, since they were taking copyrighted material and putting it into someone elses copyrighted file format) then unless I'm mistaken there's not much of legal or a logical claim that they can't be used.
To all members of the HLP community, please never act like such a child when someone else wants to use your work. It's embarrasing.
EDIT: And for the record, I would think that having "content" (in this case models) used with an appropriate link to the original project would be far preferable to not having them used; the reasoning that "you've screwed up so you can't have permission" is extremely childish. There's really no way around it.
-
Originally posted by StratComm
Stuff
:yes: :yes: :yes:
-
For the record, Jason, I didn't rip down the pics immediately since a) I was waiting for a follow up to the email telling me the matter was being discussed and b) my FTP access was down for f'n ages
BTW I'm assuming you're this Jake Hughes person that's been sending me angry emails. Just so I know who's who in this affair.
-
this whole thing can be summed up in one word: ridiculous.
-
If somebody used my models without permission, but didnt actually claim they belonged to them, i wouldnt get all upset and cry. Not unless, after i informed them i made the models and they refused to credit me or something, then i'd be a annoyed somewhat.
-
Originally posted by jason8472
Look, we really do not want our work being taken from us and used in other mods or websites. Period. There was NO permission given by any of us because your party decided NOT to contact us regarding the usage of our material in any way, shape, or form. It does not pay to be sneaky in the modding community, fellas.
Maybe, JUST maybe, we would have given permission if you would have asked. But since you already screwed up, there is no chance now.
Like I said before, I am sorry. Good luck with your project, and if you would like some pointers for your mod or need SAAB expertise, drop by the SAAB: Homeworld forum and ask.
Just consider what you have learned from this experience. Sucks to learn lessons the hard way.
*stares*
Well at least he's to the point....:blah:
EDIT: Besides, I'm starting to wonder how legal YOUR models are since they are copies of someone else's models in the first place.
-
I'm not taking sides here though.
DG, you shoulda asked.
Jason, you shouldn't have acted rude.
sucks for you DG...:D Too bad though, I was looking forward to playing this.
-
There's nothing to stop DG making his own SAAB models for the mod and if he did that nobody could whine at him.
-
Originally posted by Knight Templar
Hey, I didn't jump on anyone so :p
Just because they have no female members doesn't mean you aren't guilty :p
-
Originally posted by Killfrenzy
There's nothing to stop DG making his own SAAB models for the mod and if he did that nobody could whine at him.
I could make the UEF carrier from scratch if I absolutely had to. But those textures? No chance.
-
I never said anything about textures, I just said models! :D
Heck, I'll even give you a hand if I can find a snippet of time and a couple of simple designs! :D
-
1. Stratcomm: please.
2. Yep, Im Jake Hughes
3. I really dont care if you guys think Im being rude. You HAVE to put yourselves in our shoes.
4. Solatar: I find it rude that no asked us for permission in the first place.
5. Yes, I am to the point.
-
Dude, ignore this lot for now. No disrespect to them but this is for you and me to resolve. With that in mind, have you read the statement on my website and considered the matter further? This is the last time I'll poke the issue.
-
But since it was never discussed I have a folder in my shipyard folder containing hundreds of ships from multiple games ( HOMEWORLD just being ONE of these games )... PLUS credits that were included with those mods (once instead of just enjoying viewing them of making renders for my own amusement, I discovered they can be converted) I started keeping those posts and including them with the mod folders they came from for future use should anyone actually be interested in my ship library (since I am NOT a modler and have NO skills).
This is how it would have gone down...
Once Demo was ready (soon), I or DG would have informed your team of our efforts. He only recently found out from me where they came from originally besides the word homeworld... even I had fogotten the link and would have gone back to searching, but I took that responsibility on myself. Due to work, military, and other issues in my daily life (of which modding is just a hobby and NOT MY LIFE) I put it on the back burner... Even if your response would have been negative, at least it would have been a better ending if I had been able to approach you and say, HI I'm (so and so) and my associates and I have this mod we've been working on and since we both love the show would you be willing to let us use your work in our mod since it is easily convertabile..ect...
BLAH.... Worse case senario a negative result would have restricted the mod to the team members and not the general public after so much work went into the "secret project" of junior modders (term meaning few projects worked on or beginning modders)... But regardless the credits you have included in your mod download would have been included in force so all model and texture credits "would" have been listed (Or I would have to give DG an earfull, not that he hasn't already ;7 My rant is done.
As for any future work I have most of the episodes and am willing to do the voice rips of what I can, but background noise from the show (mostly music) really throws the atmosphere off if we have music playing for that mission also, plus a second or to of out of context music is distracting...
"oh yeah, and one more thing... It's ok to be scared." - TC McQueen
-
Where is Razor when you need him?:p
-
Originally posted by Darkage
Where is Razor when you need him?:p
How dare you. You know better than ask such a stupid question!
*trouts Darkage*
-
Was bored:)
-
*Flame*
Listen here "Jason" - coming from someone who has had to rip on people for blatantly stealing my PROGRAM CODE before your actions are unjustifiable and deploreable. Your attitude is snobbishly 8 year old "this is my sandbox, get out". Let me familiarize you with how this works
A) Person X produces a Hammerhead model, which is an unlicensed, un permissioned rip of the show's model for game Alpha -- Person X is allowed to do with under fair use
B) Person Y converts Person X's moel from game Alpha's format to game Beta's format - PERSON Y DOES NOT HAVE TO OBTAIN PERMISSION, As long as person Y credits Person X with the actual creation of the model then Person Y has not even slighted Person X - if Person Y takes credit for Person X's work they are being dishonest, but not breaking any law since Person X's work is not origional [they are both fair-use exercises]
This is not the same for program code though, such as code I've ripped on people for copying and the like. Program code is (normally) origional work, even if it's dealing with a file format you do not have permission to read/edit/write it's still origional work - this is why POF Constructor Suite, VP Constructor Suite, etc are actually covered by copyright law, as when your models _are_ _not_.
---------------
The slight against you here was _Accidental_ and they had the maturity to step up to the plate and apologize, for an accident. You then had the gaul to yell at them, act stobbish, stomp your feet and pout about people playing in your sandbox. You came to their sandbox to do this, how foolish.
Furthermore, before you try and make an analogy between this situation, and the balatant copying of a Volition model into HW and that person claiming it is his - that person copied an AUTHORIZED, COPYRIGHTED MODEL, then CLAIMED ORIGIONAL WORKMANSHIP for it - he blatantly violated copyrights, just as if someone were to copy my code without my permission.
*End Flame*
/me hands Jason a Clue-a-gram
-
Originally posted by Kazan
*snip*
Well, said...:nod:
*retreats into shadows*
-
Yeah, that's great, if not for one little thing: Fair Use died with the rise of the DMCA.
-
I like how he screeches like a banshee at everyone for "stealing" his Precious, rants on about how he never lets anyone touch his stuff no matter what, and then turns around and starts complaining about how nobody's set up a proper S:AAB mod yet and he doesn't understand why. Funny ****.
Anyway, after having read this thread, I am impressed, nay mildly disgusted by the degree of self-abasement and ass-suckage DG went to. You know, that more than made up for the relatively minor model thefts, especially since on cursory review they weren't exactly da Vincis of CG in the first place. And especially since it's DG, and it's fun to see him grovel. Had you spent long months working on those models, invested a large amount of personal soul in them, anything, you might come out sounding different. Were you even the person who'd made them, rather than a self-appointed spokesman for those who did, you might have come out sounding different. As is, I'm inclined to point out that in this rather uncomfortable situation you are in, you really can't do anything to solve anything but talk, and hence I'd recommend you start talking well. Treating people like **** is not a good way to get them to do what you want if you exert no power over them.
Keep in mind that I don't have to do much imagining- I have been in your shoes before, more or less. You still come off sounding like a jerk. What does that say about your approach?
Also, that's precisely the reason I watermark all my limited-access stuff that goes up for download. Which is very easy to do, and highly recommended for anyone who can be bothered to keep tabs on their ****. Ahem.
-
Kazan, shut up. Your imput is not needed.
In fact, all of you shut up. This is between DG, Star Dragon and the HW S:AAB team. Nobody else.
-
Shrike how can a put this simply: Bite me
-
{This is Kazan's gf}
Originally posted by Shrike
Kazan, shut up. Your imput is not needed.
Considering this took place on the very public HLP boards, it seems rather stupid to get upset that other people in the community are responding to it. It also seems very childish to tell a person who has done a lot for the board (not saying you haven't - its a matter of being proffesional) to shut up "your input is not needed." It seems like most everyone in this thread is trying to resolve this little tiff and get the community back to a peaceful state. Your comment was unnessecary and against the general attitude of the board.
In fact, all of you shut up. This is between DG, Star Dragon and the HW S:AAB team. Nobody else.
Ditto. If you post it on a public forum, don't be so naive as to think that other people won't respond to it. If you really wanted to keep it between the people and groups mentioned, you should've kept it off the board. Common sense there.
-
Never mind that, as a mod for the general community, this affects the entire community. Both communities, actually.
And if you lock the thread everyone'll just go over to the other guy's forum, which'll be a far uglier scene, so don't think it.
-
How about 'STFU because you're not involved and just jumped in and started flaming.' DG already said that he wanted to resolve this privately. Your comments and barracks-room lawyering were definately uncalled for and unneeded.
Yes, this was public. Until DG said that he wanted to resolve it privately.
-
Originally posted by Stryke 9
Never mind that, as a mod for the general community, this affects the entire community. Both communities, actually.
And if you lock the thread everyone'll just go over to the other guy's forum, which'll be a far uglier scene, so don't think it.
Sounds like you're having fun over there.
Incidentally, I agree with what you posted there. I have had a piece of artwork used without my knowledge, but when I spotted it we were able to resolve the entire issue equitably. I didn't mind them actually using it, except for the whole thing about I hadn't given my permission, and they weren't aware who had made it - all they knew that someone from Spacebattles had posted it a long time back. So we talked it over a couple emails, they gave me a 'sorry' (it wasn't THAT big of a deal), I got credit for the original pencil image on the site and now I might be doing a couple more for them. So it all worked out in the end.
Had someone used, say, my Alcyone with my permission I might be a bit more peeved, as more work went into that, but who knows. I think not trying to find out who made the original model wasn't very bright, but either you get over it and support the modders after chastisement or see your support wither. It's probably a lot easier to find who did models because generally they're fairly rare and/or people know them - especially for something as uncommon as S:AAB.
Anyhow, I hope both sides come to some sort of agreement.
-
Eh, it's either this or homework. :D
Anyway, yeah, I think everyone's been there at some point. I suspect sooner or later more level heads will come into play. But we'll see- maybe the flaming will go on interminably! Fun!
-
this whole thread has been quite amuzing :D
*looks at jasons lame retoric*
*looks at Kaz heartlessly beat him down*
*looks at Srike making no sense*
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
-
Indeed. I want to learn to rage like Kaz.
-
Am I the only one who read through Kazan's last post with a female head-voice?
Very strange, that.
-
I read all of your posts in a voice that sounds like Cheech.
Okay, not really, but I wish I did.
-
I do all yours in a Scooby-Doo voice.
-
an0n: that would be very good.. considering my girlfriend wrote that post - as she mentioned at the beginning of that
she's not a computer gamer so she doesn't have an account here, just decided to read this thread and stick her head in since i talked about it
------------
Stryke 9: two years chatting in a religious debates forum will whip anyone into debating (/ crushing the opisition) shape :D
it just tuned the skill i already had though... I can be absolutely merciless
-
Y'know, now that I've re-read the thread and thought about it a bit, this community is REALLY ****in' protective of it's members when it comes to other organizations *****in at them.
That's pretty cool.
Kudos to everyone.
-
Umm...Shrike?
If you recall I did write the correct spelling of your "location" in the HLP movie thread I belive. You should fix that..
Allso...the HLP Hammer of justice..Is it one-handed or two-handed? double-sided or one-sided? Cylindrical or boxy?
(been drawing some sketches...);7
-
Originally posted by TrashMan
Allso...the HLP Hammer of justice..Is it one-handed or two-handed? double-sided or one-sided? Cylindrical or boxy?
(been drawing some sketches...);7
I still think the Hammer is obsolete.
*bows to the Axe of Justice™*
:p
-
.......No. Shrike replaced the HOJ with Gridfire, back when he fitted all the flame-throwers.
-
from them forums:
What is the point in coming here and instigating things?
har har! that's funnay.
sorry shrike.