Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: aldo_14 on September 29, 2001, 12:05:00 pm
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I've been thinking about this, and I'm wondering about 1/2 things....
- When was the Orion introduced?
According to the old FSURPs 14-year war timetable, the Typhon was only introduced in 2333, so I doubt the Vasudans would let the GTA have a technological suoperiority for that long if the Orion had been introduced in the early 2310's
- did the GTA / PVD have large-ships before the Great war, such as older destroyer and cruiser class ships?
I'm assuming that the Orion and Typhon would both have predecessors. If only one side had one destroyer class when the war started, it would not have lasted as long...
- how large were the first starfaring vessels?
I think at least 1km+ for colony ships - namely as jump driove tech wouldn't have been perfected yet, and also there would be probably be a greater need for coolant, etc
- when did the Vasudans discover subspace?
Techroom says they were 'young' when they first entered space, so I'm assuming it would be around 2300-2310 (GTA - 2313)
- How large was the Vasudan empire when first contact was made?
My assumption is that first contact was probably in Antares, and that the Vasudans would have had control of everything from Vasuda to Antares, and all the nodes to and including Vega
- did the GTA have fighter-based lasers from the start?
Possibly they initially used mass-driver tech, and 'learned' effective fighter lasers from studying Vasudan technology?
- Did the GTA even have a fleet when they first met the Vasudans?
No need if Earth was untied, bar a few anti-pirate / crime ships, and a few wing sof fighters. Maybe the first contact with Vasudans prompted both to start building a space fleet?
Just some ideas i thought I'd throw to ya (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif)
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I believe the largest ship back then was the Fenris class. 250 meters
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The largest may have been the fenris, because wartime situations can spawn great improvements in technology.
But at the same time I can imagine there was a go-between in production that was scrapped in favor of a more powerful ship.
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And what pissed them off so much that they would declare war against eachother?
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"You know you've played Freespace too much when you're driving along trying to use countermeasures to shake off pursuing highway police." - Top Gun
Material Defender Studios ("http://www.mdstudios.f2s.com/index.html")
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Originally posted by MD-2389:
And what pissed them off so much that they would declare war against eachother?
the terrans did not respect the "conversation" (or something like that) according to FS2 techroom.
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You've read my mind aldo. And now my thoughts on, at least, the evolution of the destroyer. All names, except Sagittarius, may be changed. Please comment to correct any canon errors. Enjoy the probably history of the destroyer.
Orion: The First Destroyer
For this I have decided to, for the time being, ignore the Shivans. We know so
little about them that it simply isn’t practical. However, we know quite a bit about the Terrans, and can speculate with some accuracy about the Vasudans, especially their interactions. So I will start the story here, and a bunch of speculation.
The first destroyer class vessel was nothing like what we know today. In fact,
destroyers probably haven’t been around for nearly as long as we suspect. To begin, though, we must examine the ships that came before, for which the only evidence we have is our own imagination. So allow me some leeway here.
The final war of a series known as the Unification Wars ended in 2316, and with it the GTA as we have come to know it was formed. A united Terran military force to help keep the various alliance members in line and protect all from pirates was formed, and former enemies now became shipmates and wingmen. The transition would not be easy, and until the 14 Year War some five years later would it be complete.
But the fleets now united under GTA command were each enormous. The biggest three fleets, from the old Terran Alliance, Lunar Republic and Jovian Alliance, had nearly a thousand ships each, creating a logistical, and financial nightmare. As the various Admirals of the united fleet met for the first time in one of the new Arcadia stations high above Earth, their most pressing matter was to try to figure out how to manage such an unmanageable fleet. Though many ideas were purposed, and some used, the one we’ll be concerned about is the decision to retire one of the ship classes that all but dominated the fleet: the Leo battleship.
In an age before advanced anti-capital ship bombs had been developed, a whole battleship was needed to fight off their equivalents, and protect the fleet. This was a role that, in 2301, the Leo was designed for. But time had finally come knocking, and the ship was no longer up to standards. Their reactors were old, inefficient, and falling apart. The weapons weren’t on the same technological level as the newer ship in the fleet, the Fenris cruiser. So the decision was handed down to replace the Leo with a more modern
battleship.
The project was eventually turned over to the Han-Ronald Corporation, the famed creators of the Fenris cruiser. Within their employ was a genius, Robert Williams. Williams had been the key designer of the Fenris as well as a multitude of impressive transports including the Elysium, a transport that would serve far into the future. He was an expert at making designs that could be easily upgraded with the latest technology. So good was he that the Fenris and the later Leviathan would serve far beyond their predicted lifetimes.
The problem for Williams, of course, was to make a much larger, more powerful warship than a simple cruiser. After careful study of the tactics and theories regarding the use of such ships he decided that replacing the Leo was not the answer. Instead, he decided that both the Leo and its carrier companion, the Sagittarius, could, and should, be replaced by one ship that could do both. The leadership of the GTA liked the idea, and
Williams was given the green light to try. The result would change battlefield tactics
forever. But first, he had to fail.
It took him nearly five months to design the new class of ship, doing most of the work by himself. His blood, sweat and tears went into the design, and he named it the Orion Destroyer. But this isn’t the destroyer we have all come to know and love. In fact, many who would study this ship would call it the Pocket Orion, a name that fits it far better than any other I could come up with. The PO (easier to write don’t you think) was little more than a third of the size of our Orion, about 750-800 meters long. Though small, the ship was quite advanced supporting the ability to literally replace every part short of the hull with the most advanced technology, something that would carry over to our Orion. It was designed to combine the capital ship smacking power of the Leo with the swarming fighter capacity of the Sagittarius.
The problem, however, was that it couldn’t do either job very well. Primitive
reactors and low fighter compliments didn’t allow it to accomplish missions as well as the pairing of the Sagittarius and Leo through computer simulations. The design was still brilliant, but failed in too many areas. The first destroyer was rejected, not even a prototype was built. And Robert Williams was crushed. Many believed that he was washed up at this point, the spark gone. History would prove them wrong.
He returned to the task he had begun, and tried to fix the problems with the PO.
Though its unclear how the final design for the Orion came to him, but according to his own biography, Williams was bored one night and simply ordered the computer to simply upscale the ship. He liked the idea, and called in everyone he knew, because this was a project that would need more than just him to do. It took two months, and the Orion as we know it was born of the genius of every Terran ship designer alive.
The Orion we know today faced only one hurdle to approval, cost. The ship was
frighteningly expensive, even to the very deep pockets of the GTA. In the short term, it was decided that the Orion would be little more than a figurehead, and aside from a prototype, the GTD Orion, only four would be initially ordered, and due to their size, Han-Roland couldn’t do the job. Instead, the Orions would be built by the newly formed Department of Starship Management (DoSM), an office designed specifically to build the Orion. As the years would go by, every warship would pass through DoSM, including the Hecate and Aeolus. But as a symbol of their pride, the insignia that hangs on the main office door still has a picture of an Orion under construction.
GTD Orion would come off the assembly lines in July of 2319, some six months before the Vasudans were encountered. This triggered a push on construction, completing the second Orion, GTD Gaia, by July of the next year. Gaia and Orion were in functional service just as the 14 Year War began. The Gaia would be the first Orion in combat, defending Earth from a Vasudan raiding party very early in the war. So successful was it, that the Gaia would become the defender of Earth, and the command ship of the 1st Terran Fleet. Following the raid, the remaining four came out of the Io shipyards, with orders for many more to follow. By the 2328, all of the old Leos had been either destroyed or retired, and only a handful of Sagittarius’ remained in limited service. The Orion would serve as the biggest ship in the combined Terran and Vasudan fleets until 2349, when the Hatshepsut (or Hecate, unsure on this issue) was introduced. Even as new technology was developed, the Orion would be updated, replacing reactors, weapons, sensors, fighter bays, nearly everything, and this ability was used to stuff the Bastion and Nereid with meson warheads and seal the nodes to Capella.
A bust of Williams was placed outside the offices of DoSM after his death in 2333.
His last design, the Hippocrates, wouldn’t be built until after the Great War. In his honor, one was named after him, but was destroyed in a Hammer of Light raid in 2338. There are no plans to name another one after him.
The Vasudan Destroyers
The raid on Earth in late 2321 changed the Vasudans greatly. After training for years to fight hoards of religious fanatics, they couldn’t get over the accuracy, and power of GTA weapons. But what scared them more than anything were the rumors of a super ship that had dished out most of the damage. The Gaia shook PVN command to core, and they quickly scrambled to meet the new challenge. In less than six months, the Vasudans produced their first destroyer, the PVD Thanatos. Unfortunately for the Vasudans, they had made the same mistake Williams had made nearly four years earlier, the Thanatos was simply to small to be very effective.
Though the Thanatos was an unmediated disaster, it showed the GTA the speed with which this new enemy could adjust their tactics. The Vasudans cranked out nearly fifty Thanatos’ in less than four years, swamping the battlefield with them. Despite their design, however, they were eventually regulated to the classic battleship role, leaving the small and ineffective fighter bays to be turned in to a easily destroyable reactor housing.
Eventually, the Thanatos would vanish from the battlefield, the last one going down in the Battle of Talnia in 2327.
But those four years of mass producing Thanatos’ had not been wasted. Careful study of the Orion had revealed the flaws in the design, and a new destroyer, the Savior class, was developed. In 2326, the first Savior’s came off the line. They were one and a half kilometers long, and capable of taking on an Orion at point blank range. But their true weakness was soon exposed. In an attempt to emulate some of the design decisions of the Orion, they placed the Saviors reactor near the outer hull without realizing that it was there to be easily removed in case of failure or need for replacement. Of course, they weren’t stupid and quickly placed a turret on the spot to protect the reactor. But instead of protecting it, they simply turned it into a target. By the end of the cease fire of 2328, the GTA began exploiting the poor design decision, and sending Saviors down in droves.
Despite the horrendous losses of Saviors, the Vasudans continued to produce them until 2333, when the first Typhon came off the line. Eventually, the remaining Saviors were either destroyed or recycled, and the Typhon became the frontline destroyer for the Vasudan Empire. The new design made the Terrans laugh, until the Eisenhower and the 4th fleet fell at the hands of a fleet led by one. The reason it finally worked, as opposed to the old Saviors, was that it was based on Vasudan design philosophy instead of Terran. This led to the reactor was buried deep in the hull to protect it. Despite this, GTA planners tried to blast the turrets off of Typhons hoping to hit the reactor, thus the reason why GTA info on the ship indicated that the turret armor was weaker than expected.
The Typhon would serve a long and proud history, but by placing the reactor deep in the hull, the new weapons of the fleet doomed many to death. As time would pass, the new Hatshepsut class leaned even farther toward their own design ideas and away from the Orion. But at the same time, the general destroyer concept changed as well. While the Hatshepsut became more like the battleship of old, the Hecate, then new Terran destroyer, became more like a carrier. Considering this trend, eventually the old division between carrier and battleship will make a comeback, and the reign of the destroyer as queen of the fleet will fade once again into history.
I'm working on another version of the 14 Year War timeline and history. That'll take a bit longer than this did. Later.
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Here's something I compiled for a campaign idea. It's not cannon, but hey (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
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The History of Exodus Fleet
Long before the outbreak of war between the GTA and the Vasudan Emperium, the GTI, then under the command of Admiral Allenson, was tasked with the advance exploration of potential star systems for colonization. They had many resources at their disposal including the full backing of the GTA security council and their own base of operations in a remote area of Delta Serpentis. From there, they launched many expeditions to uncharted systems, but soon discovered the logistics of such expeditions were extremely hard to meet using the smaller craft supplied to them by the military. They petitioned the GTA for permissions to begin research into larger craft.
Over the next 17 years, the GTI conducted research into large-scale reactor systems, stabilizing devices, jump drives, and high-stress framework. There were many failures, including the GTXS Andromeda and the GTXS Hixos, until a new prototype, the GTXS Nebus, became the first Terran capital ship put into active service. This flying colony spanned over 2 kilometers in length and was fully equipped to deal with the hazards of exploring new terretories. It was equipped with enough life support and and cargo space to support up to 10,000 passengers and crew for up to 6 months at a time, with space left over for sample storage heavy machinery.
However, a short time after that, in 2303, a historic meeting took place in the Ribos system. The GTSC Tendros, making routine surveys in the Ribos, detected an energy signature of unknown configuration. Several minutes later, the Science Cruiser was face to face with a small alien cruiser. It took several days just to set up a method of communication. The species, identifying themselves as "Vasudans" in the Terran Language, were an intriguing lot, very sophisticated, cultured, and advanced. Meetings were set up in both Sol and the Vasudan Home System of Vasuda Prime, and soon the two species became trading partners, exchanging knowledge and learning about each other.
The GTA security council, however, took a sharply different view of this development. They knew that another sentient species so close to Sol could and will eventually result in conflict. So, while fostering good relations with the Vasudans diplomatically, they instructed the GTI to create more powerful and advanced weaponery and warships in preparation. The GTI undertook several projects, fully funded by the GTA SC, and this netted several outstanding new weapons. The ML-16 Laser became the GTA's newest weapon, capable of destabilizing the molecular bonds between atoms, and also the disruptor Cannon, capable of knocking out electronic subsystems. The Apollo fighter and the Angel Scout craft entered their Op-eval phases, and, most importantly, the GTXS Nebus was modified to incorporate more weapons turrets, a stronger hull, and combat spacecraft and became the very first Terran Destroyer, the GTD Orion.
Even with these new advances, the GTI began to go further, researching how to build even bigger and more powerful warships and weapons. However, the outbreak of the T-V war shifted the GTI's main focus to intelligence gathering and sabatoge, which severely cut into its weapons research programs. All but the most crucial were cut, and work on the larger warships was suspended until further notice.
That notice never came. The war dragged on for nearly 14 years with no end in sight.
The GTA Security Council desired a new avenue of attack. They charged the GTI to seek out new territories from which to attack the Vasudans, hopefully finding nodes that the Vasudans hadn't yet discovered. Antares, Ikeya, and Ross 128 became launch points for these expeditions. Barnard's Star and Gamma Draconis were discovered at this time, but lacking any real jump nodes into Vasudan Territory, these systems were largely ignored.
In the year 2333, a GTI scouting wing in the Ross 128 system came accross a small asteroid field. They detected strange power signatures coming from inside. Assuming a possible Vasudan Ambush position, they entered the asteroid field. Contact was very shortly lost with the wing, and all available fighters were deployed to the area. The GTI cruiser in the area, the GTC Zane, found little trace of the Wing Gamma, and also found something alltogether strange. A strange looking fightercraft sat in the nebula, apparently completely disabled. There was nothing to suggest anything that it was this ship that destroyed Gamma Wing, and black boxes recovered from these craft showed bits and pieces of a violent first contact. The fighter was commandeered by GTI special ops forces and all evidence of the meeting was erased from records. The fighter itself was towed back to the Sol System and underwent extensive research. This, too, was, however, a second string project that was soon suspended to bend more resources to war.
2335. Everyone remembers the year that we first encounter the Shivans, and the year of the Great War. Never before had either the Terrans or the Vasudans encountered a species of this great of power and technology. When they pulled together, they shared ideas and technology, and discovered that each other weren't so bad after all, but even stealing and adapting Shivan technology didn't appear to be enough to stop them. The appearence of the SD Lucifer and the destruciton of Vasuda Prime was a deciding factor in reopening the the old GTI Technology project, renamed project Exodus, classified Level Omega. This called for the remodification of 2 Orion Ships and several smaller craft in preparation for a mass exodus from Terran-Vasudan Space. This proved to be unecessary, however, with the destruction of the SD Lucifer and the collapsing of the Sol Jump Node. The GTI HQ in Delta Serpentis shifted focus again, gathering together all shivan technology they could get their hands on, which led to the GTI Hades Rebellion of 2336. The GTI lost this war, and their records were largely destroyed.
Ten years later, work began on the GTVA Collossus. This was largely a result of of analyzing Shivan Technology and combining the best aspects of both Terran and Vasudan sophistication. In preparation, the newly formed GTVA and GTVI took a look at some of the former projects of the Rogue GTI, and came accross Project Exodus.
During the Collossus construction period, several large ship secrets were discovered, including massive fusion reactor technology. The GTVI believed in the Collossus, but they also needed a contingency plan for the survival of both species. In 2253, Project Exodus, renamed GTVI Directive Omega 18, was revived in the now lightly travelled Delta Serpentis System. The project, which called for a modification of 2 Orions, now called for the construction of a ship much larger than the Colossus. The design was originally redesigned for a Juggernaut about 5 kilometers in length, but as more advances were made with the Colossus project, and as more needs were added, the craft underwent several redesigns, getting bigger and bigger. The final design, the GTWS Exodus could, if necessary, serve as a colony ship for over 100,000 Terran and Vasudan Soldiers and Civilians, with its own escort fleet. Those who would go were pre-chosen, and the list was updated every 5 years. The ship itself, a monument to engineering, spans over 16 kilometers in length, and sports a Subspace Stabilizing Drive based on scans taken from the Lucifer and the Hades. A fully functional colony equipped with living space, cargo space, factories, processing plants, 2 fighterbays and 1 heavy launch bay, hydroponic and agricultural domes, Entertainment and business facilities, medical facilities, and everything else that it might need for self-sufficiency. The ship itself has its own division of over 600 fighters and bombers and pilots, soldiers, and other military installations, as well as a sizeable escort fleet(see details on concept art) and an elite detachment of marines and security forces. Completed early in 2365, it sat in dry-dock in Delta Sepentis awaiting the fateful order that everybody hoped that nobody would have to give. Gradually, the GTVA brass became confident that the Shivan threat was over, so plans were made to strip parts of the Exodus for parts and supplies.
Unfortunately, those dreams were shattered in the Spring of 2367, when the NTF re-established contact with the Shivans in the Gamma Draconis System. This time, it appeared that there was no stopping them, they poured from the Nebula, through the Knossos, into GTVA Space. The contingency plan was put into motion, with all selected personnel and civilians being ferried to the Exodus. Its escort fleet formed, including the GTD Delecroix(wasn't destroyed in the fight with the SD Ravanna), the GVD Aldebaran, and several smaller cruisers, corvettes, and transports Following the near loss of the Aquataine and the Appearance of the Shivan Juggernaut, Exodus Fleet made its departure through an uncharted jump node found during the reconstruction period. Contact has been lost with GTVA Space, and we fear the worst. We may very well be the last surviving Terrans and Vasudans in the universe. That was 23 years ago.
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Now, 2390, is a year like any year. We've been adrift for some time now, and we're still no closer to finding our new home. *sigh* I guess it's back to swapping the deck again. At least I'll be in the military in a few weeks; maybe I'll get to fly one of those new fighters next year. *sigh* Can't wait.
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harg! two long posts. I'll read that later (considers this as a "bump" (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif) )
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Originally posted by venom2506:
harg! two long posts. I'll read that later (considers this as a "bump" (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif) )
(http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/lol.gif) what he said (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
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[email protected] Staff member of
Inferno,
Don't loose
your headz
over it.
Soc Inferno
Project Rebellion ("http://www.avengershome.co.uk/rebellionhtml/")
Gost of the past ("http://www.gotp.f2s.com/")
iqc 102628858
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Originally posted by darkage:
(http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/lol.gif) what he said (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
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"You know you've played Freespace too much when you're driving along trying to use countermeasures to shake off pursuing highway police." - Top Gun
Material Defender Studios ("http://www.mdstudios.f2s.com/index.html")
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During the T-V War (later called the 14-Year War) Terrans have excelled (over Vasudans) in the area of mass manufacturing and weaponry.
(from FSRef Bible)
If the GTA was better at both making ships, and had better weapons, how come the T-V war degenerated into a war of attrition, with both sides suffering heavy losses?
Does this mean that the PVE had a huge standing navy?
(and why have the little smily icons above this post vanished? (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif) )
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Perhaps it was sheer determination and skill?
The vasudans had some very speedy and manueverable fighters.
All this talk has me thinking about doing a battleship as well.
The main diference will be the addition of anti-fighter turrets.
They'll have special short range (800-900 meters or so) but a really fast firing time and turret turn time will be VERY quick.(0.1)
And alot better at anti-bomber defences.
Hmm, 10 30" Guns (Higher speed and damage, but it isn't an energy weapon so the ship would need to be rearmed after missions), 10 regular turrets, 5 multi-purpose missle launchers, and 15 screen defence guns.
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Play Cardinal Spear (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/tongue.gif)
I hope in the far future to renovate it totally into something that can go down as matching Volition quality. (i.e. actually do up some new models, weapon icons, a few dialogue tweaks, full cb animations, and it's then done)
In the Babel Effect, mention is made of the GTD Kemuel which is later the frame used for the Balius carriers.
The Orions were innovations of the mid V-T war, and the "Kemuel" was a ship first designed with artificial gravity shortly after the Fenris class.
We can assume that artificial gravity was later in the V-T war, with the Orions and similar craft as the Orion seems to be a 3rd generation ship, Fenris 2nd, and the older ships more then likely didn't have artificial gravity but did have a "paintjob" like the Fenris.
Anyhow in FS:FPS there is a lot that shows that artificial gravity isn't perfect in the 7th year of the V-T war, Orions are the new bastions of the fleet, and Typhons aren't there yet.
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Ace
Staff member FreeSpace Watch
http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/ ("http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/")
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My GTF-Congo Bomber was produced during the T-V war
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Originally posted by aldo_14:
[B- did the GTA have fighter-based lasers from the start?
Possibly they initially used mass-driver tech, and 'learned' effective fighter lasers from studying Vasudan technology?
[/B]
Except Terrans have always had better weapons than the Vasudans. Who was stealing the Avenger from us in the great war?
And another question. What started the war? E's probably got better ideas than me, but I'd say this.
1. Terrans and Vasudans have first contact and get along well.
2. A number of Terran and Vasudan ships are destroyed by unknown forces - Shivans? There are no survivors
3. Each side balmes the other for the attacks putting them on uneasy ground.
4. A Terran figher wing finds a terran cruiser (heavily dmaged by Shivans) with Vasudan rescue ships swarming around it.
5. Terrans assume that the Vasudans attacked and open fire on them. Vasudans fight back - War starts.
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I had an idea on the start of the T-V war myself;
Basically, first contact is made on 2319. According to the FS Ref bible, people are happy to learn of life.
Unfortunately, a number of rogue elements in both sides are involved in minor skirmishes. Although there is no war, tensions are inflamed and both sides begin to improve their fleets. When a Vasudan colonisation ship is destroyed by Terran rebels, killing an important dignitary, the 2 races become ever more paranoid.
PEace hangs on a knife-edge.
The breaking point comes when a Terran dignitary is meeting with a Vasudan counterpart on a (unknown-ype) VasDestroyer, to discuss trade rights in the uncolonised systems.
Unfortunately, the Terran makes a communications error upon his trnasport leaving the ship - offending the Vasudan dignitary enough for them to attack and destroy the Elysium.
War.
(just an idea - feel free to better it (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif) )
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Sounds pretty close to what Volition had established Aldo. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif)
I'd actually go a step further, that the rebellious Vasudans could even be the HoL, believing that the Terrans are the "all powerful race" and wish to start the war to cleanse the Vasudan people.
The actual war being sparked by conversation being mishandled during a diplomatic meeting on colonial settlement also works, with tensions on both sides leading to armed conflict almost instantly.
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Ace
Staff member FreeSpace Watch
http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/ ("http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/")
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Well, the 14 Year War started for the same reason all wars start, resources, fear, nationalism, imperialism, ect, ect. I think political factors played a major part in why the war last as long as it did, though I do believe there were several cease fires along the way.
In the end, it wasn't that the conversation ceremony was messed up, it was the fact that neither side decided to forgive it. By the timeline I've done, initial contact was actually quite peaceful, with two experianced and intellengent diplomats trying to ensure peace for the next few decades. Then the treaty they work out is rejected by the goverments, and the diplomats shipped off to obscure stations. Now two idiots meet, get all pissy, and. . . Well, you know the rest.
By my estimation, though, its likely there was contact long before "official" contact. Unfortunatly, it mostly had to do with illegal trade (drugs mostly).
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Visit Warpstorm. ("http://www.warpstorm.com") Do it now.
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I know there is a method, but all I see is madness.
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Originally posted by Eishtmo:
By my estimation, though, its likely there was contact long before "official" contact. Unfortunatly, it mostly had to do with illegal trade (drugs mostly).
Ys, but not by tht long. I'll admit that Pirates and the likes probably made firt contact firt, but no matter how hard they tried, they'd only be abl to keep it a secret for a month. Two at best.
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Originally posted by Culloden:
Ys, but not by tht long. I'll admit that Pirates and the likes probably made firt contact firt, but no matter how hard they tried, they'd only be abl to keep it a secret for a month. Two at best.
I don't think that really makes sense IMO....
1/ How would the pirates / smugglers be able to communicate? I doubt any criminal enterprise finance the development of a translator.
2/ Would there even be any pirates in Vasudan systems? Because the initial colonisation would be by government/GTA ships, any initial contact would surely be by either the colonisation ships, or the initial colonists. Especially if the GTA sent in scout fighters / ships first.
3/ first contact would probably be either in a 'new' system, or as Vasudans entered a jumpnode. New systems are highly unlikely to be pirated, as there would be relatively little business there. Also, initial concentrations of GTA forces would be high, to secure the system. Jumpnodes would obviously be protected.
4/Actual contact between Vasudans and terran renegades would be highly unlikely, as the Vasudans are suppossedly very caste conscious. They would probably frown on criminal groups.
Another thing is that first contact would be a truly earth-shattering (maybe not the right word (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif) )experience.... it would be almost impossible for someone to kep it quiet, even if they wanted to.
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This is on topic believe it or not.
Pre-FS1 weaponry would cover today's weapons too.
Wired news has an article on a weapon that fires One MILLION rounds per minute.
It's still in development obviously, but to even say you can do it...
http://www.wired.com/news/conflict/0,2100,46570,00.html ("http://www.wired.com/news/conflict/0,2100,46570,00.html")
Tale a look for yourself and see. Wow.
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6-tailed modder.
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Originally posted by aldo_14:
1/ How would the pirates / smugglers be able to communicate? I doubt any criminal enterprise finance the development of a translator.
I'm sure they found a way. Besides, there must have been some basis for the original development of the translators, and this could very well be it. Also, when I say 'official' contact, we're talking the one where the GTA and PVE admit they've had contact. Imagine what the intellegence groups would hold back. . .
2/ Would there even be any pirates in Vasudan systems? Because the initial colonisation would be by government/GTA ships, any initial contact would surely be by either the colonisation ships, or the initial colonists. Especially if the GTA sent in scout fighters / ships first.
Not historically. Goverment sponsered colonization is rarely first contact. Usually people looking to make money make first contact, sometimes long before the goverment even attempts such a feat.
3/ first contact would probably be either in a 'new' system, or as Vasudans entered a jumpnode. New systems are highly unlikely to be pirated, as there would be relatively little business there. Also, initial concentrations of GTA forces would be high, to secure the system. Jumpnodes would obviously be protected.
That's only true if the sensors on a GTA/PVE ship were looking for other life. Likely, they wouldn't, and so they could pass right by some planets without even looking. Space is a big place. Jumpnodes would only be protected if one side knew they were there in the first place.
4/Actual contact between Vasudans and terran renegades would be highly unlikely, as the Vasudans are suppossedly very caste conscious. They would probably frown on criminal groups.
There's no proof of a caste system, and even in such a system there are always crimials of some sort. "Probably frown on crimial groups?" Understatement of the year, and a similar view is likely held by the GTA.
Another thing is that first contact would be a truly earth-shattering (maybe not the right word (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif) )experience.... it would be almost impossible for someone to kep it quiet, even if they wanted to.
To quote a favorite comic of mine: "There is no conspiracy, there doesn't need to be." They wouldn't need to force people to keep quite, many would willingly do it (because they're making money on it, imagine the monopoly!), and many more would simply be ignored. That's the way the world works sometimes.
BTW, you keep missing a letter or two, usually 's's and 't's.
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i'll support ald on that point. I just doubt there was prates at all then. Imagine, it was a time of exploration and colonisation, etc. I doubt that civilians ahd ships then. Even in FS2 we have no clue that civilians have access to ships. It's very likely that then, space craft were not that common, and really expensive things that only a huge government could afford to have.
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Originally posted by venom2506:
i'll support ald on that point. I just doubt there was prates at all then. Imagine, it was a time of exploration and colonisation, etc. I doubt that civilians ahd ships then. Even in FS2 we have no clue that civilians have access to ships. It's very likely that then, space craft were not that common, and really expensive things that only a huge government could afford to have.
How did the GTA survive without trade? Military transports alone? I doubt it. In the beginning, yes, the goverment would control access to the node, but once a permeant colony is set up in other systems, the civilian transit had to come. Soon after, groups looking for a place to start anew would begin branching out. It's actually proven to be true by FS itself. Refer to the command briefing regarding the Flail cannon: "A group of Terran scientists has returned from a previously unexplored system known as Laramis." As a general rule, scientists usually don't like being military lackies, and the system was previously unexplored. This could, of course, be taken many ways, but it seems to indicate that this was a civilian enterprise, not a goverment one (though the rest of the research for the weapon came from Sol).
And since when did pirates need inter-system drives to operate. We can reasonably assume that there is intra-system civilian traffic, and with modification, a few of those ships could be converted to combat, pirate style.
Freespace isn't the ideal world you two seem to think it is. Piracy, crime, drugs, all the bad things we have in our socity now will likely be in the socities of the future. FS is no exception.
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Originally posted by Eishtmo:
How did the GTA survive without trade? Military transports alone? I doubt it. In the beginning, yes, the goverment would control access to the node, but once a permeant colony is set up in other systems, the civilian transit had to come. Soon after, groups looking for a place to start anew would begin branching out. It's actually proven to be true by FS itself. Refer to the command briefing regarding the Flail cannon: "A group of Terran scientists has returned from a previously unexplored system known as Laramis." As a general rule, scientists usually don't like being military lackies, and the system was previously unexplored. This could, of course, be taken many ways, but it seems to indicate that this was a civilian enterprise, not a goverment one (though the rest of the research for the weapon came from Sol).
And since when did pirates need inter-system drives to operate. We can reasonably assume that there is intra-system civilian traffic, and with modification, a few of those ships could be converted to combat, pirate style.
Freespace isn't the ideal world you two seem to think it is. Piracy, crime, drugs, all the bad things we have in our socity now will likely be in the socities of the future. FS is no exception.
How do you know how I think the FS world is?
I'm merely sure scientist missions are under military contracts. You think the GTA (built around a military system), will let civilians hit the road, discovers new techs on lots of worlds, make first contacts if there's possiblities of it, let the outcome of such an event in civilian hands and all? I don't think so. The exploration of new territories is a military action, not a pretty journey into the country.
Who talked about intersystem jumps? not me. I asked how pirates could have ships at all? Pirates don't have planes nowadays, for what I know. How could they afford to buy a space ship? A ship must cost the pelt of the a$$, we're not in Privateer. And btw, how can you assume intra systems are not needed? I'm sure you noticed like me how FS ships are slow. I don't think pirates would be willing to wait for 8 months their cargoes to arrive in their hidden outpost in an asteroid field (assuming they can afford the incredible cost to build one).
And btw I doubt civilians colonies are left on their own, w/o any militaries. Just an exemple: it's said every colonized system has an arcadia. Well the arcadia always comes along with a full complement of fighters, and for what I noticed, they're always next to a node. So the GTA doesn't look at all nodes, but they look at the strategic ones. If pirates won't use these ones, to whom will they sell the stolen stuff? I think space traffic and all that stuff is really restricted, for civilians. Hospital ships, mining ships, science ships. Thats' all I think the GTA wouuld allow, plus they're ships that could belong to very rich companies, the only civilians who could afford a thing like a spaceship. Shall I remind you the cost of an aircraft carrier nowadays? a simple fenris is bigger, and probably much more advanced tech wise., and I assume a ship like the pre FS1 Angel is also way more advanced than a 21th century recon plane.
edit: loads of typos (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/tongue.gif)
[This message has been edited by venom2506 (edited 10-05-2001).]
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The Galactic Terran Alliance is just that, an Alliance. It's kind of like NATO, with a central command structure for the fleet. This system was carried over when the GTVA formed, if you'll notice. They may be a military orginization, but when it comes to internal matters of the individual member nations, I doubt they had anything beyond the general protection from hostile forces (Vasudans, pirates, ect.). In fact, the FSRB makes it relativly clear what the GTA is and what it does. And I quote: "It's largely a defense and research organization, and has few domestic influences, focusing it's attention on matters in outer space, and the exploration thereof." Likely they have little or no control over inter-colony trade beyond coming to the rescue in case of disaster or attack.
Yes, its likely as a general rule, exploration would be a military action. But that doesn't mean civilians looking for a new home wouldn't have done it on their own if they could. Ever hear of the Mormons? Or the exploration of the American West?
Where did I say there were no intra-system drives for pirates? I said they didn't need inter-system drives. It's unreasonable for intra-system drives not to be fairly common amoung civilians. An effective pirate force could live almost totally without inter-system nodes, hijacking ships moving toward far-flung colonies. And of course they could perchase ships, certianly not a Fenris cruiser (I'm still trying to figure out why you assumed that's the kind of ship they would buy) or even fighters. You know what the average size of a ship is on this planet? A bit bigger than a dingy. Odds are, they could get their hands on ships of varying sizes, mostly small, and use them efffectivly. Good god, they probably have several Elysium transports, you know, the ones "used by everyone, civilian and military" since space colonization began. Nothing there says you can't make money transporting goods and materials within a system or between systems and not make one hell of profit even for a bunch of small time transport companies. And if the GTA tried to stop that to all but contested systems, do you know what kind of holy hell would be raised?
Arcadias are big, take a while to build (especially on the frontier), and there's at least one per colonized system. Space is big, and one Arcadia couldn't possibly keep pirates out of systems. Most aren't at nodes (not that it would bother intra-system pirates), but located high above populated planets. Hell, I actually don't remember a single Arcadia located right next to a node in any canon mission (of course, I haven't played in a while, feel free to correct me).
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the fenris was just an exemple. But tell me how would you hijack a ship w/o fighters? i imagine the scene: "shut down yuor engines or we ram you with our elysium" hem...
As for exploring america, a horse car and an exploration ship have not the same cost, for what I know. And waht happened when the civil first met the US american natives? It turned bad. I don't think the GTVA would make such a mistake. Pluys you said it all in your quote "focusing it's attention on matters in outer space, and the exploration thereof" If the civialians do that too, the GTA is indda useless for that task after all don't you think? intra systems and inter systems are the same thing for me. Civilians won't have that more than todays civ planes have afterburners and inflight fueling. And you know whay? Coz the GTA will surely not want pirates that can go where they want. All this stuff is military, not civilian, neither are shields or I dunno what.
Don't get me wrong: I DO like the idea of pirates and so on, my first aborted campaign was about that, mainly. But I think it's not realistic.
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Actually, its quite realistic, and very likely. Space, my friend, is a very big place.
Ramming? You do know those transports have turrets don't you? And a smart pirate would upgrade them to fit their needs. You need to get away from thinking that everything needs fighters, it doesn't. With enough ships and a bad attitude, you can capture a lot of ships. In the age of sail, most pirates didn't fire a shot, their victims just surrendered, rather than die in a hopeless cause.
You're right, horses, cars and space ships do not have the same cost, but you have to understand economics. For most of history, the horse was one of the few modes of land transportation (other than the foot, in general) and as such, they cost a pretty penny. In fact, if you count for inflation, a horse at the peak of that period probably cost just as much as a car. And likely, a space ship would cost as much as a car. Space ships are frightfully expensive now because they're made one of a kind, like the cars of old. Mass production could slash that price by a bundle.
Yes, the GTA does explore deep space, but that doesn't mean civilians didn't do it without the GTA's approval. Hell, I'd bet that the first people into most systems did it without GTA approval or even knowledge.
And I do remember what happened to Indians, and guess what? That's probably one of the reasons the 14 Year War started.
Oh, and regardless of what the two terms mean to you, they have very strict definitions. Intra-system is within a system, and inter-system is between systems. Learn it, live it, love it.
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...And to furthur Eishtmo's defense, why do you think that pretty much ALL Elysium's are armed with turrets? Civilian craft wouldn't be armed at all if it wasn't needed (when's the last time you saw a bunch of '50-cal turrets on a 747?)
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Originally posted by Eishtmo:
Intra-system is within a system, and inter-system is between systems
Thanx, I know that. As for comparing ships to cars, it's ridiculous. In todays world, the equivalent of a spaceship is suremy not a car (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/rolleyes.gif) . It's planes, large 4 reactors freighters and all that stuff. Now it's known that pirates are evrywhere over the seas and the unhabited lands, cruising the skies in stolen C10 galaxies or C5 hercules. And you can put any turret on a elysium, if it's not up to beams, it will do crap to another capship. Why turrets on a Elysium?
Coz, off course, the vasudans were all nice peoples and didn't attack any capships in the space, and asteroids are smart enough to avoid collisions.
Bah, anyway, you just tell I'm wrong, but you won't prove anything. This discussion is useless and, for me, over.
[This message has been edited by venom2506 (edited 10-06-2001).]
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OK, this is my first post, so here goes (sorry if it's long and a p1pm for my campaign...) I've been thinking a lot about what happens between now (ie 2001) and the start of the T-V war.
I've been working on a campaign "The First Small Steps." It begins with the discovery of intra system subspace drives, and ends at the outbreak of the T-V war.
The set up is that all political boundaries on Earth have finally been dissolved, and everyone now recognizes the UN. "We are entering a new period of peace and prosperity ..." (yeah right, we've heard that before (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/rolleyes.gif) )
Although subspace is a new technology, we've been colonizing Earth's orbit, the Moon, and the Asteriod Belt for a while... the Belt is a rich source of raw materials that have been exhuasted on Earth.
The action starts off with pirate raids in the Belt, and it turns out the Belter Alliance (the pirates) are better equipped and have better ships (more raw materials, etc.) Earth is blockaded, and the UN is forced to recognize the Belt as a separate (non) political entity (so we have the UN and the Belt at peace).
But the military research and buildup has begun, so we actually have some fighters, bombers, small cap-ships, etc. This will be important when we meet the Vasudans...
With the advances in subspace research, we discover the jump nodes to Delta Serpentis, build inter-system drives, and begin exploration of nearby systems. Once colonies are established, the UN and Belt Alliance form the GTA with the outer colonies.
However, 60 years previously, unknown to anyone outside the UN Intelligence Council (now GTI), a convoy of "sleeper ships" was dispatched to colonize and explore Alpha Centauri using normal-space drives. When the reach A.C. and come online, they find they're not alone (remember, A.C. is only one jump from Vasuda)
Initial contacts are peaceful, but lack of translation makes things difficult. After translation devices are developed, there is a non-aggression pact between the GTA and the Vasudans, but there are numerous points of friction, especially in systems like Alpha Centauri that both races are claiming.
That's all I have for now, I've got a few missions put together, and the storyline needs to be tightened up a little.
The mods are killing me (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/mad.gif) The early fighters would be nothing but converted freighers -- with no cargo bay, they're more manuverable, and they have better weapons, but they're still slow, weak and thinly armored (at least by FS1 standards).
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[This message has been edited by penguin (edited 10-06-2001).]
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Well, today space ships and cars are different, but in the future they may not be, and likely won't be if there is some form of inter-colony trade.
And this discussion wasn't useless. Debates like this help to finally define what the pre-FS1 world was like. It helps campaign designers and writers come up for the reasons why the world is the way it is. And while straining on me, it's actually been quite invigorating and fun.
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Originally posted by Eishtmo:
Well, today space ships and cars are different, but in the future they may not be, and likely won't be if there is some form of inter-colony trade.
And this discussion wasn't useless. Debates like this help to finally define what the pre-FS1 world was like. It helps campaign designers and writers come up for the reasons why the world is the way it is. And while straining on me, it's actually been quite invigorating and fun.
Lol (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif) I didn't mean the topic was useless, but both of us willing to prove the other wrong (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif), and we add nothing really new. Ok, I'll put my own vision of pirates, the ones i wanted to show in my Descent campaign. This applies to all civilians btw.
It was happening in sol after the node collapsed. first, no civ had any jumpdrive of any sort, same for shields. The ships are custom thinguys usually, built on old ships put to garbage (like the angel scout), and others are designed especially for civs. In any case, they're dead inferior to any military ship. Travel though sol is done via kinds of jumpgates, big nodes maintained open thanx to a big suspacedrive (I think I'll use that in OtT) all the weapons are much like the FS1 "don'trememberthename", and are useless agaisnt shields. The pirates exists because of a big society which pay them and give them equipment.
voila (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
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And that works for the early FS universe.
And I believe you were looking for "ML-16 Laser."
I believe that intra-system subspace fuctions with or without inter-system nodes in the system. There's no evidence that it can't, but no evidence that it can. As I've developed a probably early history of the GTA (pre-GTA, actually), I decided that intra drives were invented before inter drives. It makes the missions easier to design that way.
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