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General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: ZylonBane on October 24, 2001, 01:20:00 pm

Title: FS3?
Post by: ZylonBane on October 24, 2001, 01:20:00 pm
Apologies if this has already been linked to here. Hot off the VBB...
 http://vbb.volition-inc.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/015991.html (//"http://vbb.volition-inc.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/015991.html")
 http://faculty.concord.edu/manzione/index.html (//"http://faculty.concord.edu/manzione/index.html")

Hrrmmmmmm?

------------------
ZylonBane's opinions do not represent those of the management.
Title: FS3?
Post by: Darkage on October 24, 2001, 01:28:00 pm
Noooooo....you are posesed byt the FS3 virus.
*slaps Zylon on the head* wakeup wakeup!!!

Yup the top link was posted here but not the site (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)

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Title: FS3?
Post by: DragonClaw on October 24, 2001, 02:32:00 pm
That so called "campaign-map" is the map used in BEL(Behind Enemy Lines)... too bad it got cancelled...

------------------
    -Director of the staff of Hidden Terror. ("http://www.hiddenterror.f2s.com")
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Quote
The fear always controls our attitude, let us fear no more!
Title: FS3?
Post by: ZylonBane on October 24, 2001, 03:47:00 pm
 
Quote
Originally posted by darkage:
Yup the top link was posted here but not the site  (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
Oops, I guess I accidentally looked for it in the correct forum.  (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
Title: FS3?
Post by: karajorma on October 25, 2001, 05:12:00 pm
 
Quote
Originally posted by RKIF-DragonClaw:
That so called "campaign-map" is the map used in BEL(Behind Enemy Lines)...

Actually the entire campaign bears a startling resemblance to BEL.
Title: FS3?
Post by: TDM/JM on October 25, 2001, 09:31:00 pm
Should clarify that BEL was the campaign I was doing. The map over there is mine. The stuff you read about Vincent-somebody and pirates and Sunspot Corporation, etc., was the direction they were going when I decided to bail out -- I thought my ideas were better, what can I say?  (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/tongue.gif)

What Tim's been talking about and what's up at our site are some of the things I was working on in connection with BEL.

Ascraeus, who is Tim's dad
Title: FS3?
Post by: Stryke 9 on October 25, 2001, 10:12:00 pm
[Bangs ZB's head between two very hard rocks]
Already being discussed in several topics. It is not FS3. It does not mean that there will be FS3. All of this becomes obvious in the first .3 seconds of reading the topic.

Also, I really really wanted to do that to someone. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
[does it again]
Title: FS3?
Post by: Shrike on October 26, 2001, 01:52:00 am
 
Quote
Originally posted by TDM/JM:
Should clarify that BEL was the campaign I was doing. The map over there is mine. The stuff you read about Vincent-somebody and pirates and Sunspot Corporation, etc., was the direction they were going when I decided to bail out -- I thought my ideas were better, what can I say?   (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/tongue.gif)

What Tim's been talking about and what's up at our site are some of the things I was working on in connection with BEL.

Ascraeus, who is Tim's dad

You could have at least left a 'dear John' letter when you left, instead of simply bailing with no warning.   (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/tongue.gif)
Title: FS3?
Post by: TDM/JM on October 26, 2001, 01:52:00 am
Posted this on the VBB:

Tim asked me to put a few more files from my outline up on the site. You can find them at
                                http://faculty.concord.edu/manzione/ ("http://faculty.concord.edu/manzione/")  

under "New". There's some artwork, a mission map, a briefing, and a couple of mission outlines in sequence with the last ones posted.

On some of the comments made here:

(1) Having been convinced that there would be no FS3, I wrote the outline with the intent of creating a "campaign" FS3 -- the next best thing. But I also knew it would never be sold, and would probably not be played except by people who were experienced with FS1 & 2. Veterans. Like the player-character I created. In any game it's very "artificial" to ramp up skills levels through the early missions -- the real world often hits you with everything on your first outing. You survive, or you don't. So I decided to do it differently. No ramp up; real world.

(2) Besides, what makes you think that the Sathanas or Ravanas are the biggest, baddest ships out there? Or that Dragons are the fastest, or Seraphims the most powerful bombers, or Maras the best all-around superiority fighters? I took FS into Shivan space, where the "real" war is. What the GTVA finds on the Shivan/Andarta frontier are the "front-line first-echelon" units, and they aren't equipped with aging, obsolescent weapons systems like the Sathanas. In the Great War and at Gamma Draconis the GTVA faced catagory-C and rear-echelon guard units. Which is why you can kill 200 Shivan ships in FS2 and still fear Shivan "superiority" -- it doesn't work any other way. In the failure sequence in one of the missions I posted tonight, you can find mention of the "NBTS," what we referred to as the                             Notorious-Bigger-Than-the-Sathanas-Ship," which was never modded. Think about a vast, capship battlefield between the Shivans and the Andarta at Arawn system on the map. That's what the tiny GTVA task force stumbles into towards the back end of the campaign. It's a hell of a mission, too ambitious, maybe, sure, but then I was writing FS3, fer cryin out loud, knowing it would never be made, so I pushed as hard as I could without getting silly about it.

(3) On whether a GTVA task force can survive in Shivan space -- The Shivans have more important concerns at first. Only when the  force reaches the Dyson Sphere at Khrishna on the campaign map do the Shivans realize the possible objective is linkage to the Andarta. At that point the Shivans realign their priorities, and things get tougher.

(4) On my son Tim -- he's bright and talented, and a better writer than I was at that age. He's motivated, and drives me nuts sometimes by asking questions. ("Why do
they have the big eyes, dad? How do you spell 'nocturnal'? Can you read this and tell me what you think? How do I make the smiley face?") But I thank you all for accepting and encouraging him.

Ascraeus, who is Tim's dad

Fair enough.

Title: FS3?
Post by: aldo_14 on October 26, 2001, 03:30:00 am
'ships big enough to have a gravity field'...a remember DaveB or someone at   (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/v.gif) mentioning this when FS3 was still a possibility...

The frontline war is something I'm personally very keen on......

[This message has been edited by aldo_14 (edited 10-26-2001).]
Title: FS3?
Post by: ZylonBane on October 26, 2001, 08:28:00 pm
JMS made similar claims about the Minbari capships before B5 started as a series. They'd be so big they would warp the space around them, etc. Of course what he ended up with was big, but not that big.

Oh, and Stryke is a putz. Check out his latest behavior on the VBB for proof.
Title: FS3?
Post by: jonskowitz on October 26, 2001, 11:40:00 pm
hey TDM/JM, I can't get through on your link, it tells me the site is forbidden to me.

[This message has been edited by jonskowitz (edited 10-26-2001).]
Title: FS3?
Post by: Stryke 9 on October 27, 2001, 12:12:00 am
Ships big enouh to have a really noticeable gravity would necessarily collapse upon themselves under the strain- unless you reinforced them many times more than a standard ship yould be, which means more gravity, which means more density which means... and eventually you end up with nearly solid metal and a few tunnels, meaning you might have just added thrusters to a planet for all the good it does you.

Hmmm... Zylon, if you are going to act like you have a single neuron in that mothballed old cavity you call a skull, you might want to actually SAY THINGS WORTH HEARING/ reading. And keep it to the VBB, this is no-idiocy zone.

------------------
No, I can't remember the last time I posted something productive, mother.

<Ragnarok temporarily offline for sevicing>
Title: FS3?
Post by: TDM/JM on October 27, 2001, 09:08:00 am
My dad is putitng other things on his site from his work. He's going to have the FS outline on there too, next week and the notes and things he made. He's putting some of my things up too.

Somebody at VBB just said that my dad's been writing all this stuff, including my stuff. People can be dumb. I like Freespace. My dad's helping me. That's what dads are supposed to do, isnt it?  

Tim
Title: FS3?
Post by: Shrike on October 27, 2001, 02:44:00 pm
Zylon, Stryke... STFU, both of you.  (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/tongue.gif)
Title: FS3?
Post by: Stryke 9 on October 27, 2001, 03:23:00 pm
 
Quote
Originally posted by Shrike:
Zylon, Stryke... STFU, both of you.   (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/tongue.gif)

Don't know what STFU is, but yeah, sorry. I've been easily pissed for the past few days, had to work pretty much constantly all week and thus got no sleep until yesterday.
Title: FS3?
Post by: Shrike on October 27, 2001, 03:57:00 pm
STFU = Shut the F*ck Up.

I don't really mean it, (hence the  (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/tongue.gif)) but chill out, will you guys?
Title: FS3?
Post by: Nico on October 28, 2001, 11:41:00 am
bouh, I don't like this plot.
Title: FS3?
Post by: Sandwich on October 28, 2001, 01:01:00 pm
Personally, I love the plot (especially since it fits right in with my camp). Keep the info flowing!

Oh, yeah - the site is down...  (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/frown.gif)

Stryke 9: I don't think I've mentioned anything to you before, but I will now. You can easily get...annoying, to put it nicely. Please try to remember that because we're communicating in writing, facial expressions and body language are useless (except for smilies...). So many of your (hopefully) joking comments can come across as much worse then they (hopefully) were meant to be. So try to tone it down a few notches, ok?

And Zylon - try to be patient with the crazies here at HLP - we may not be as numerous as on the VBB, but we certainly are insaner (that isn't a word, is it. Oh well...) then they.  (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif) Oh yes, ummm, yeah. Hi.  (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/lol.gif)

------------------
America, stand assured that Israel truly understands what you are going through.

"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar ("http://michael.randelman.com"), the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)
Title: FS3?
Post by: ZylonBane on October 28, 2001, 09:47:00 pm
sandwich-- thanks, but my opinion of Stryke was formed entirely by his VBB behavior ("http://vbb.volition-inc.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/016026.html"). His antics here are just the icing on the cake.  (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)

And on-topic... it's a shame BEL wasn't finished. Sounds like it could have been a truly epic campaign.

------------------
ZylonBane's opinions do not represent those of the management.
Title: FS3?
Post by: Shrike on October 28, 2001, 09:56:00 pm
 
Quote
Originally posted by ZylonBane:
And on-topic... it's a shame BEL wasn't finished. Sounds like it could have been a truly epic campaign.

Yeah..... ah well.
Title: FS3?
Post by: IceFire on October 28, 2001, 10:01:00 pm
That them there site is still down.  (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
Title: FS3?
Post by: Su-tehp on October 29, 2001, 10:51:00 pm
Yeah, I just found out about this campaign. Ascraeus really seems to have done his homework on this.

Ascraeus, if you're reading this, I posted a reply on the VBB topic about your project; I also e-mailed you some thoughts that occured to me reading your son's posts. (Posting all that again here would be a little TOO redundant, so I'm not gonna do it.)

Damn, only nine years old, huh? He's gonna grow up to do great things, I have no doubt of that.  (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)

------------------
FRED Zone's Grammar editor/ FS history moderator
Former member of TCA
Member in good standing of 99th Skulls
Honorary member of TCS and UGC

"I created your civilization...now I will destroy it!"
--Ra, the Sun God
Title: FS3?
Post by: Setekh on October 30, 2001, 02:09:00 am
Hey Su-tehp, welcome to HLP  (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)

Wow, JMS certainly has a good future. Sometimes it makes me sad to think of future generations and realise that they may not see the pleasure of FS...

We need a bigger universe.
Title: FS3?
Post by: NeoHunter on October 30, 2001, 04:05:00 am
We can create our own universe.

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GTD Excellence  ("http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/excellence") Webmaster
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"Be flakked or be square!"
Title: FS3?
Post by: betterthanyou on October 30, 2001, 12:06:00 pm
don't like the creature... it looks, well not FSish at all  (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/hammer.gif)
Title: FS3?
Post by: Su-tehp on October 30, 2001, 07:43:00 pm
The website containing Ascraeus' notes is still down.  (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/frown.gif)

Any word on when it might be back up so we can see what Ascraeus came up with?

------------------
FRED Zone's Grammar editor/ FS history moderator
Former member of TCA
Member in good standing of 99th Skulls
Honorary member of TCS and UGC

"I created your civilization...now I will destroy it!"
--Ra, the Sun God
Title: FS3?
Post by: Shrike on October 30, 2001, 09:57:00 pm
 
Quote
Originally posted by Setekh:
Wow, JMS certainly has a good future.

*laughs*

You do know that JMS is also the guy who came up with B5, right?  Kinda funny, if you take your line there out of context.
Title: FS3?
Post by: TDM/JM on October 31, 2001, 12:41:00 am
It's up again. An intro briefing, and mission briefings, outcome briefings, and event outlines for missions 2 through 4. Also a campaign map, two mission maps, and some images used to give "a feeling". Go to:
 http://faculty.concord.edu/manzione/fs3.htm ("http://faculty.concord.edu/manzione/fs3.htm")

There's some movement on this -- some folks who have produced some very good campaigns have expressed an interest. Negotiations, schedules, other commitments, etc., have to be worked out. Likely be some changes.

Ascraeus
Title: FS3?
Post by: Su-tehp on October 31, 2001, 12:59:00 am
This stuff look great, Ascraeus!

If you need any help with mission designing, FRED Zone is standing by to render any needed assistance. (You need to talk to Cetanu; that guy is a frickin' FRED genius!)

By the way did you get the FREDZone Package I e-mailed you and Tim?

------------------
FRED Zone's Grammar editor/ FS history moderator
Former member of TCA
Member in good standing of 99th Skulls
Honorary member of TCS and UGC

"I created your civilization...now I will destroy it!"
--Ra, the Sun God
Title: FS3?
Post by: Kitsune on October 31, 2001, 03:09:00 am
Well, from here forward, if Zylon gripes at someone for a FS3 thread they now have a valid retort they can point to.

------------------
~Space Kitsuné
6-tailed modder.
Title: FS3?
Post by: Shrike on October 31, 2001, 06:11:00 pm
 
Quote
Originally posted by Kitsune:
Well, from here forward, if Zylon gripes at someone for a FS3 thread they now have a valid retort they can point to.

Ahh, but we don't have FS3 threads here....  (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif)
Title: FS3?
Post by: Nico on October 31, 2001, 06:12:00 pm
 
Quote
Originally posted by Shrike:
Ahh, but we don't have FS3 threads here....   (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif)

"looking at the name of the thread. looking at shrike, with a sad smile..."
 (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
Title: FS3?
Post by: Sandwich on October 31, 2001, 07:41:00 pm
 
Quote
Originally posted by Kitsune:
Well, from here forward, if Zylon gripes at someone for a FS3 thread they now have a valid retort they can point to.


*Looks at Kitsune, looks at topic starter, shakes head...*  (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)



------------------
America, stand assured that Israel truly understands what you are going through.

"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar ("http://michael.randelman.com"), the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)
Title: FS3?
Post by: Shrike on November 01, 2001, 02:18:00 pm
 
Quote
Originally posted by venom2506:
"looking at the name of the thread. looking at shrike, with a sad smile..."
  (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)

You didn't get my comment, did you?  This is an intelligent, rational thread... so it can't be a 'FS3' thread.   (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/tongue.gif)
Title: FS3?
Post by: Kitsune on November 01, 2001, 04:15:00 pm
Looks at shrike and nods.

True, true...  Only a couple of light blows thrown.  Nothing near as bad as VBB.

I haven't been to there in so long it's not even funny.
Title: FS3?
Post by: Sandwich on November 01, 2001, 05:03:00 pm
 
Quote
Originally posted by Kitsune:
True, true...  Only a couple of light blows thrown.  Nothing near as bad as VBB.

Actually, the equivalent topic of this one over at the VBB is incredibly informative, sane and rational - at least, it was a day ago or so. Haven't been there since...  (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)

------------------
America, stand assured that Israel truly understands what you are going through.

"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar ("http://michael.randelman.com"), the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)
Title: FS3?
Post by: Unidan on November 03, 2001, 06:08:00 am
OMG! Dyson Spheres!!!!!!!!!!! How can those be in the game? Your computer would explode!
Title: FS3?
Post by: aldo_14 on November 03, 2001, 07:59:00 am
 
Quote
Originally posted by Unidan:
OMG! Dyson Spheres!!!!!!!!!!! How can those be in the game? Your computer would explode!

If you can get a planet working, why not a sphere  (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
Title: FS3?
Post by: Su-tehp on November 03, 2001, 12:33:00 pm
Yeah, but but, Aldo, in some missions in FS 2.9, you're actually flying INSIDE the Sphere. This means getting rid of the regular "stars and nebula and planets" background and replacing it with actual ground/planetary terrain.

1 Astronomical Unit (A.U.)= distance from our Sun to Earth's orbit, which is equivalent to 8 light-minutes (I don't remember how many millions of miles it is, but it's a lot)

A Dyson sphere with a diameter of 1 A.U. would have the same suface area as AT LEAST 100 MILLION EARTHS.  (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/eek.gif)

Needless to say, that's a lot of ground to cover (pun intended).  (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif)

"...And when the ground covers the sky, when the ground IS the sky, this shall be a sign that the Destroyers are near..."
-- from the recorded FS ramblings of Su-tehp  (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif)

------------------
FRED Zone's Grammar editor/ FS history moderator
Former member of TCA
Member in good standing of 99th Skulls
Honorary member of TCS and UGC

"I created your civilization...now I will destroy it!"
--Ra, the Sun God
Title: FS3?
Post by: Sandwich on November 03, 2001, 02:55:00 pm
 
Quote
Originally posted by Su-tehp:
Yeah, but but, Aldo, in some missions in FS 2.9, you're actually flying INSIDE the Sphere. This means getting rid of the regular "stars and nebula and planets" background and replacing it with actual ground/planetary terrain.


That's actually not a problem... just make a low-poly sphere (think around 16 polies or so), have the face normals face inwards, and texture it with 16 different tiling earth-like tiles. Oh, and make it 50,000 km in diameter.   (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)

EDIT: Wait a sec... How do you know that some missions are inside Dyson spheres?

------------------
America, stand assured that Israel truly understands what you are going through.

"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar ("http://michael.randelman.com"), the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)

[This message has been edited by sandwich (edited 11-03-2001).]
Title: FS3?
Post by: Su-tehp on November 03, 2001, 03:56:00 pm
 
Quote
Originally posted by sandwich:
Wait a sec... How do you know that some missions are inside Dyson spheres?

It's easy enough to deduce, Sandwich. Remember that subspace jumps work by "phasing" a ship (making it insubstantial such that it can pass through objects in physical space) through a subspace hole smaller than a micron. This means that the jumping ship essentially "teleports" when it jumps, allowing it to "bypass" solid objects in space.

Looking at Ascraeus' map for FS 2.9, there are some routes for the GTVA task force that lead to star systems labeled with the words "Dyson Sphere". If Dyson spheres encompass whole star systems, then the only conclusion to reach is that the GTVA taskforce jumped/teleported INSIDE these Dyson Spheres because jump nodes form inside star systems, or at least form near stars. (The nebular jump nodes would seem to be an obvious exception to this rule, but there is a star seen inside the nebula as well when you fly some of the FS2 nebular missions.)

If there are jump nodes located inside the Dyson Sphere, then a ship can jump into the Sphere from the outside if there is an adjacent jump node connecting to a node inside the Sphere. A jumping ship would "bypass" the wall of the Sphere like it wasn't there.

It's easy enough to deduce, isn't it?

------------------
FRED Zone's Grammar editor/ FS history moderator
Former member of TCA
Member in good standing of 99th Skulls
Honorary member of TCS and UGC

"I created your civilization...now I will destroy it!"
--Ra, the Sun God


[This message has been edited by Su-tehp (edited 11-03-2001).]
Title: FS3?
Post by: jonskowitz on November 03, 2001, 04:03:00 pm
Didn't venom or somebody make a giant asteroid model (complete with tunnels) that you could fly inside?

And as far as the Dyson shpere problem, it seems to me that it should be even simpler than that.  use bitmaps for the background showing the scenery for the inside of the sphere and ser stars to 0.

[This message has been edited by jonskowitz (edited 11-03-2001).]
Title: FS3?
Post by: Sandwich on November 04, 2001, 02:58:00 am
 
Quote
Originally posted by Su-tehp:
 It's easy enough to deduce, Sandwich. Remember that subspace jumps work by "phasing" a ship (making it insubstantial such that it can pass through objects in physical space) through a subspace hole smaller than a micron. This means that the jumping ship essentially "teleports" when it jumps, allowing it to "bypass" solid objects in space.

Looking at Ascraeus' map for FS 2.9, there are some routes for the GTVA task force that lead to star systems labeled with the words "Dyson Sphere". If Dyson spheres encompass whole star systems, then the only conclusion to reach is that the GTVA taskforce jumped/teleported INSIDE these Dyson Spheres because jump nodes form inside star systems, or at least form near stars. (The nebular jump nodes would seem to be an obvious exception to this rule, but there is a star seen inside the nebula as well when you fly some of the FS2 nebular missions.)
There are a couple of flaws in your reasoning, although I don't doubt that some missions will take place inside Dyson spheres.

- One, subspace drives cause a ship to vibrate at a certain frequency in order to open up a way into subspace. However, this does not rule out ships being able to jump into and out ofa Dyson sphere freely using a simple local subspace jump (no node required).

- Two, Dyson spheres must have a radius equal to the distance of any given inhabitable planet from the sun. For Sol, a Dyson sphere would be 1 AU from the sun. For a Shivan system, a sphere would be at the distance that a Shivan-habitable planet would be (an idea I doubt is realistic, as Shivans don't use planets...).
With this in mind, there is a high likelyhood that a jump node would not be located inside the diameter of a Dyson sphere (ie. inside Eartg orbit).

Anyway, the reason I asked was because I thought maybe you managed to get "inside" information about the campaign somehow... I want in, too...  (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)

------------------
America, stand assured that Israel truly understands what you are going through.

"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar ("http://www.geocities.com/sandvich/index.html"), the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)
Title: FS3?
Post by: aldo_14 on November 04, 2001, 06:31:00 am
It was on his webpage / the VBB about being inside the Dyson spheres... actually, it would be easier to make inside a sphere than outside... it would be so large that it wouldn't appear curved (i.e. like the surface of the earth), so you could simply use a massive set of planes for sides (also using the limitations on battlefield side).

You could either make the inside a nebula (no need to worry 'bout backgropunds), or, again, use a set of giant planes some distance from the mission boundaries, to create the impression of a vast, distant surface.  Or, create a tiny object with a gigantic engine glow for the inner star, and have planets in the distance / asteroid fields..
Title: FS3?
Post by: Su-tehp on November 04, 2001, 11:03:00 am
 
Quote
Originally posted by sandwich:
There are a couple of flaws in your reasoning, although I don't doubt that some missions will take place inside Dyson spheres.

- One, subspace drives cause a ship to vibrate at a certain frequency in order to open up a way into subspace. However, this does not rule out ships being able to jump into and out of a Dyson sphere freely using a simple local subspace jump (no node required).

- Two, Dyson spheres must have a radius equal to the distance of any given inhabitable planet from the sun. For Sol, a Dyson sphere would be 1 AU from the sun. For a Shivan system, a sphere would be at the distance that a Shivan-habitable planet would be (an idea I doubt is realistic, as Shivans don't use planets...).
With this in mind, there is a high likelyhood that a jump node would not be located inside the diameter of a Dyson sphere (ie. inside Earth orbit).

The way I always envisioned Dyson Spheres to be was that they would have to encompass the ENTIRE solar system, meaning all the planets orciting the star the Sphere was built around.

Take our own solar system as an example. A single Dyson Sphere, just because of the amount of material and mass it would have to contain, would create a HUGE gravitaional field, many times more than any star. (Dyson Spheres are THAT massive.) If you attempted to build a Dyson Sphere here in our own solar system such that it would only go out to, say, just beyond Mars' orbit, then Jupiter, Saturn, Neptune, Uranus and Pluto would come crashing into the surface of the Sphere before long, because the increased gravity of the Sphere would pull more heavily on these planets, disrupting their orbits.

Also, if the Sphere was built too small as to be just beyond Mars' orbit, Mars might be pulled into the INSIDE suface of the Sphere because of the increased gravitational force pulling the opposite way.

In order to prevent this sort of gravitaional disruption, the Sphere built around Sol would have to go out beyond Pluto's orbit, which is, if I remember correctly, about 120 A.U.s from the Sun. Without question, in order to preserve all the planets in a solar system, a Dyson Sphere would have to encompass all planets in the star system. This would include jump nodes inside the system because jump nodes, so far as I know, form inside star systems.

 
Quote
Originally posted by sandwich:
- One, subspace drives cause a ship to vibrate at a certain frequency in order to open up a way into subspace. However, this does not rule out ships being able to jump into and out of a Dyson sphere freely using a simple local subspace jump (no node required).

Local jumps not requiring a jump node, also known as "intrasystem jumps," only take place near stellar gravity wells. Local jumps CANNOT be used in interstellar space where there are no stars. (This is mentioned in the Technical database under the "Subspace" entry in FS2.) Whether or not a Dyson Sphere's own gravity would be able to substitute for a star's gravity to allow local jumps is an open question.

 
Quote
Originally posted by sandwich:
Anyway, the reason I asked was because I thought maybe you managed to get "inside" information about the campaign somehow... I want in, too...    (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)

Nah, no inside info here. Just my own brain (such as it is...).

------------------
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Former member of TCA
Member in good standing of 99th Skulls
Honorary member of TCS and UGC

"I created your civilization...now I will destroy it!"
--Ra, the Sun God


[This message has been edited by Su-tehp (edited 11-04-2001).]
Title: FS3?
Post by: joek on November 04, 2001, 12:06:00 pm
 
Quote
Originally posted by Su-tehp:
In order to prevent this sort of gravitaional disruption, the Sphere built around Sol would have to go out beyond Pluto's orbit, which is, if I remember correctly, about 120 A.U.s from the Sun. Without question, in order to preserve all the planets in a solar system, a Dyson Sphere would have to encompass all planets in the star system. This would include jump nodes inside the system because jump nodes, so far as I know, form inside star systems.

But that's missing the whole point of a Dyson Sphere.

1a) A Dyson Sphere is created to collect all the energy from a star,
1b) while supporting the sentient beings who created the Dyson Sphere.

Because of this you want the Dyson Sphere's inside circumfrence(sp?) to be the same distance from your star as the planet you were created on. You also want the inside of the Sphere to have the same gravitational force as your planet of origin.

I don't remember who said it, or where I read it, but one scientist (or a group of) said that Dyson Spheres could never be created because their mass would require more material than exists inside of any star system.

So, because of how much mass the Dyson Sphere needs to:
A) hold it together from falling in towards the star, and
B) create the same gravitational force as the planet who's residents are building it,
basically the entire star system (except for the star of course) would be canabalized for the Dyson Sphere.

This means that you don't have to worry about Jupiter crashing into the Sphere, because Jupiter would have already been taken apart probably to create the gigantic atmosphere clinging to the inside of the Sphere.

So, (in conclusion),
1) a Dyson Sphere would on reach to the distance of the habitable zone of the star it surrounds, and
2) there would be no other planets, asteroids, etc in the star system because they would have been used to create the Sphere.

Now, on to the second point(s) I wanted to make.

Yes, the idea of six large textured planes (at a distance greater than Alpha 1 can fly), could be used to minic the inside of the Sphere.

And, for the exterior, I don't think that you need to create an object (like a planet object). Mainly because a Dyson Sphere would be much larger than a planet (and that's an understatement, at the distance above the Earth the Space Shuttle flys, if you were that distance above a Dyson Sphere, whereas the Earth looks round from that distance, the Dyson Sphere would look as flat as if you're standing on the Earth).

So how would I create a Dyson Sphere? Just create a Dyson Sphere .pcx and place it over the star in FRED (and I haven't tried this, so you might also need to make a black star or something to remove the star glow when Alpha 1 turns toward the Sphere.

Joe.

------------------
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Title: FS3?
Post by: Culloden on November 04, 2001, 12:10:00 pm
In general, the star accounts for 99% of the mass in the average star system, so you're right.
Title: FS3?
Post by: TDM/JM on November 04, 2001, 07:24:00 pm
Great discussion here! Very informative, and really fun to read. Sandwich, I posted a note to you over on the VBB thread.

A few points:

(1) Su-tehp is correct: a number of the missions do take place inside Dyson Spheres. For dramatic purposes, it would have to be done -- can you imagine flying around the periphery of such a construct without having a chance to go inside? What a rip!

(2) If you are inside a Dyson Sphere, flying high above the interior surface, light sourcing from the star and from surface illumination will give an indication of curvature, from what I've read. Large flat planes may not be convincing, unless they're blended and textured. If you are on the ground, the only sense you'll have of the sphere is "odd" look of the sky, particularly at sunset/sunrise and at night.

(3) It's not tough to imagine the sphere-builders leaving a planet or two inside the sphere, for aesthetic purposes. Or perhaps even preserving their home planet for sentimental reasons. There might also be a mechanism inside for blocking light and heat from the central star on a temporary, rotating basis, simulating night and day and the seasons -- like the "shadow squares" that Niven described in RINGWORLD.

(4) There are two ways to build a shell without creating a lot of mass (and therefore gravity). First: thin, high-tensile material that compresses with rotational torque, quark-weaved stuff that takes advantage of strong force on the subatomic scale. Two: extrusions of non-contiguous physical properties from another universe, shaped into barriers the way we shape metal or plastic. It would be impossible to break, but you could blow it up by disrupting the fields that shape it and hold it in check. See Greg Bear's novel EON, for example.

(5) None of the missions I envisioned took place near the interior surface, nor in the atmosphere of a Dyson Sphere, because I thought the technical issues might be too great. If someone wants to tell me differently, I'd be fascinated to hear it. The missions I wrote were "in space," near the central sun, or outside, near the exterior surface.

(6) On "getting into" the Dyson Sphere, I had envisioned several ways: a rare jump node in the interior, a Shivan-built portal inside (of course!), and an enormous, planet-sized "gate" on the exterior-to-interior surface that irised open.

(7) On the dimensions of a Dyson Sphere: matching the sphere's radius to the central star's "life zone" won't necessarily work. The interior surface will trap 100% of the star's radiation. Convective heat in the surface itself will add heat. Infrared reflection inside a sphere will not "cool" the surface as much. I'd imagine that the interior surface of the sphere would be further out that the original life zone, and much of the energy will ducted to the exterior surface and radiated into space using huge heat sinks. So a Dyson Sphere will glow red and orange in places, possibly putting out as much heat and light as a small star. In some ways, it's a trickier problem than gravity.

(8) Besides, who ever said that the sphere builders would be satisfied with a single, central star? Why not tow another star or two into the central space of an enormous sphere, and set them in stable orbits? That's what the GTVA task force encounters INSIDE Khrishna on the map -- Khrishna being the outermost "core" system of Shivan civilization -- the others are beyond the map.

(9) If you want a technical challenge, here's what I had envisioned for the Krishna missions -- Having uncovered the technical wherewithall to collapse stars and create the rebound effect that results in supernovaes (as witness the Capella explosion), the GTVA task force enters the Khrishna sphere with the intent of setting off the largest of the three central suns with an effect like a pipe bomb -- the whole sphere blows apart in titanic pieces of shrapnel. In the last of the Khrishna missions, the task force exits the sphere and must reach a jump node before the thing goes up, battling Shivan evacuation convoys. So the sphere blows just as the task force reaches the node, and the player has to race the expanding shock wave/debris wave to retrieval, with Shivans taking shots at him/her the whole way . . . .

Ascraeus
Title: FS3?
Post by: jonskowitz on November 04, 2001, 08:19:00 pm
Well, I was going to post something, but Ascraeus pretty much covered everything I was going to bring up, darnit...   (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)

------------------
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[This message has been edited by jonskowitz (edited 11-04-2001).]
Title: FS3?
Post by: joek on November 04, 2001, 08:33:00 pm
 
Quote
Originally posted by TDM/JM:
(2) ... If you are on the ground, the only sense you'll have of the sphere is "odd" look of the sky, particularly at sunset/sunrise and at night.

Actually, it would look very flat like the Earth, but the real thing you would notice is that there is no sunrise, sunset, nor even night. Since you're not on a planet that revolves its surface away from the star, you would never have night. (Unless of course the engineers created large orbiting planes to give sections of the sphere night at different times... D'oh! I see that point in #3  (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif))

 
Quote
Originally posted by TDM/JM:
(5) None of the missions I envisioned took place near the interior surface, nor in the atmosphere of a Dyson Sphere, because I thought the technical issues might be too great. If someone wants to tell me differently, I'd be fascinated to hear it.

Nah... then you'd just have to make atmospheric craft for FS2... I like flying in space.  (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)

 
Quote
Originally posted by TDM/JM:
(7) On the dimensions of a Dyson Sphere: matching the sphere's radius to the central star's "life zone" won't necessarily work. The interior surface will trap 100% of the star's radiation. Convective heat in the surface itself will add heat. Infrared reflection inside a sphere will not "cool" the surface as much. I'd imagine that the interior surface of the sphere would be further out that the original life zone, and much of the energy will ducted to the exterior surface and radiated into space using huge heat sinks. So a Dyson Sphere will glow red and orange in places, possibly putting out as much heat and light as a small star. In some ways, it's a trickier problem than gravity.

Interesting idea. But I still imagine that the reason you create the Sphere is to capture 100% of the star's energy, converting most of it into energy to power your systems (TV, computers  (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)). Maybe even if you don't build the Sphere with enough mass to create its own gravity, you've got the technology to generate your own gravity, and you'd use a chunk of the star's energy to power these gravity machines. Probably, rather then venting it into space, you'd use it to power up your space vehicles, maybe even things like laser sails.

 
Quote
Originally posted by TDM/JM:
(8) Besides, who ever said that the sphere builders would be satisfied with a single, central star? Why not tow another star or two into the central space of an enormous sphere, and set them in stable orbits? That's what the GTVA task force encounters INSIDE Khrishna on the map -- Khrishna being the outermost "core" system of Shivan civilization -- the others are beyond the map.

Now that sounds cool.  (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)

 
Quote
Originally posted by TDM/JM:
(9) If you want a technical challenge, here's what I had envisioned for the Krishna missions -- Having uncovered the technical wherewithall to collapse stars and create the rebound effect that results in supernovaes (as witness the Capella explosion), the GTVA task force enters the Khrishna sphere with the intent of setting off the largest of the three central suns with an effect like a pipe bomb -- the whole sphere blows apart in titanic pieces of shrapnel. In the last of the Khrishna missions, the task force exits the sphere and must reach a jump node before the thing goes up, battling Shivan evacuation convoys. So the sphere blows just as the task force reaches the node, and the player has to race the expanding shock wave/debris wave to retrieval, with Shivans taking shots at him/her the whole way . . . .

Hmm... that does sound tough, though I don't know if it's really that doable. I mean in the last FS2 mission the expanding shockwave vaporizes Alpha 1 if you don't get out in time.  (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)

Joe.

------------------
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Title: FS3?
Post by: jonskowitz on November 04, 2001, 10:35:00 pm
 
Quote
Originally posted by joek:
Nah... then you'd just have to make atmospheric craft for FS2... I like flying in space.

Besides, if we want atmospheric missions and craft we already have the 'Starfighter' conversion   (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)

Just wait until I get my terrain models finished.  I have 2 planned, one of Earth (at an undisclosed location) and the other of the western tip of the "martian grand canyon" don't remember the name right off hand, have to look at my martian maps when I get home).

------------------
I told you that It ("http://www.homestead.com/jskgames/files/home.html") would be done by November, well, mostly anyway...

[This message has been edited by jonskowitz (edited 11-04-2001).]
Title: FS3?
Post by: Shrike on November 04, 2001, 10:57:00 pm
Personally..... why would Shivans need Dyson Spheres?
Title: FS3?
Post by: jonskowitz on November 04, 2001, 11:03:00 pm
For the same reason anyone else would need them.  A place to live...

------------------
I told you that It ("http://www.homestead.com/jskgames/files/home.html") would be done by November, well, mostly anyway...
Title: FS3?
Post by: Shrike on November 04, 2001, 11:13:00 pm
But isn't the general idea that Shivans are Zeegee inhabiting critters?  What would they need all that room for when loose rocks would work just as well.
Title: FS3?
Post by: jonskowitz on November 04, 2001, 11:16:00 pm
Well, we still don't know exactly who or even what the Shivans are.  I think the point of this campaign was to (finally) show us a little bit about them.  How they live, what are they capable of, what drives them so xenophobic and unneighborly.
Title: FS3?
Post by: TDM/JM on November 05, 2001, 12:10:00 am
Dunno if anyone saw this on the VBB, but I was trying to frame the concept of "superwars" and how Dyson Spheres might give a sense of a "higher conflict" that the GTVA stumbles onto. It's another dimension of the DS idea.

**The only way you're going to destroy a Dyson Sphere is by doing what the Shivans did to Capella, which suggests that they're old hands at that sort of "superwar" on an astronomical scale.

Which means that if you do posit another terrifically-advanced species (the Andarta) in a "ten-thousand-year" war with Shivans, then you're going to have to do some thinking about redesigning the nature of war itself. You'll have to reflect that redesign in your campaign -- it's not just about fleets of big ships launching fighters. There's a whole strategic realm above and beyond that where
both sides fling stuff on an astonomical scale at each other. That's what the Capella mystery hinted at -- the Shivans do this sort of thing all the time.

You can design a campaign to give a sense of this -- the Dyson Sphere idea is one way. In my outline the GTVA task force stumbles across several nebulae which are the wreckage of old campaigns between the Shivans and Andarta (Prisni, Paranath, to a lesser degree, Erui). That's another way to create an "atmosphere" of "superwar." And of course, there's drama here -- the GTVA folks  have to react to a type of conflict they've never witnessed, etc.**

Shrike has a point. Both FS1 & 2 briefly imply that the Shivans seem at home in zeegee, and that they are connected somehow with interstitial hyperspace. I'm not sure that's solid enough information to negate the Dyson Sphere idea, however. Hard surfaces,  lots of it, 100% stellar energy, and control over transit points are attractive options, even for zeegee types.

Ultimately, if I'm forced to, I'll fall back to the following argument: it's cooler to have them building Dysons Spheres than floating around in space.  (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif)

Ascraeus
Title: FS3?
Post by: Shrike on November 05, 2001, 12:12:00 am
What, and fighting your way through ten thousand beam-spitting asteroids isn't?   (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
Title: FS3?
Post by: jonskowitz on November 05, 2001, 01:23:00 am
Naaaaah, that's just what we do for fun  (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)

------------------
I told you that It ("http://www.homestead.com/jskgames/files/home.html") would be done by November, well, mostly anyway...
Title: FS3?
Post by: joek on November 05, 2001, 08:23:00 am
 
Quote
Originally posted by Shrike:
But isn't the general idea that Shivans are Zeegee inhabiting critters?  What would they need all that room for when loose rocks would work just as well.

You know, they might not even need full Dyson Spheres. I mean they don't need gravity, so the Sphere wouldn't be loaded with mass to create gravity. So instead of Dyson Spheres as big terrestrial habitats around a star, the Shivans probably use them as huge spacedocks around a star.

Joe.

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Title: FS3?
Post by: Turnsky on November 06, 2001, 03:08:00 am
Well, with the rumoured prospect of the fs2 source code coming out, i guess full blown TC's would be on the horizon.
Title: FS3?
Post by: karajorma on November 06, 2001, 04:21:00 am
 
Quote
Originally posted by sandwich:
- Two, Dyson spheres must have a radius equal to the distance of any given inhabitable planet from the sun. For Sol, a Dyson sphere would be 1 AU from the sun. For a Shivan system, a sphere would be at the distance that a Shivan-habitable planet would be (an idea I doubt is realistic, as Shivans don't use planets...).

Did you consider the fact that the reason shivans don`t use planets is because they have dyson spheres?
 Why would the shivans need to invade planets in other star systems. They probably haven`t finished inhabiting their systems. All they need to do to planets is bombard enemy cities from space (which is exactly what they did!)

 Someone else claimed that shivans are zero G creatures but it's pretty obvious from looking at a shivan that it isn`t.
 Shivans have muscles all over their bodies that wouldn`t be important in a zero G creature. In fact looking at a shivan it looks like a creature from a more massive planet than earth not less.  
Title: FS3?
Post by: TDM/JM on November 06, 2001, 06:59:00 am
Agreed, good observation. Of course, what might have happened was a bioengineering agenda at some time in the past -- to create an exoframe that could operate efficiently in any environment. Which means they could have evolved/been manufactured in zeegee, or they could have e/bm on a heavy planet and then been engineered for zeegee. (What really happened, most likely, is that this was an minor inconsistency that escaped the Volition writers and art folks. No offense, it happens.)

But the overall point is that the Shivans remain a mystery, which means you could take them in a lot of directions, in terms of a plot.

Ascraeus
Title: FS3?
Post by: Ace on November 06, 2001, 09:43:00 pm
My only problem with this concept presented here is that the Andarta are not an elemental force on an equal plane with the Shivans. Yes, you may have written them with advanced technology, but the point is that they are not *alien* enough, there doesn't seem to be a need to stretch your thinking to try to understand what they possibly could be at all.

Shivans requiring Dyson spheres also seems slightly odd, but could be worked out in theory if Shivans are limited to using solar power. (since a Dyson sphere is meant to gain maximum energy efficientcy from a star)

The tie between mass and sub-space nodes means that Shivans would be more interested in Neutron Stars however, since they contain more "node clusters."

Now a Dyson Sphere could be the result of an attempt to reconfigure mass for new nodes coupled with using the surface area for advanced forms of Knossos technology...

------------------
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Staff member FreeSpace Watch
 http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/ ("http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/")
Title: FS3?
Post by: Su-tehp on November 06, 2001, 10:15:00 pm
 
Quote
Originally posted by Ace:
The tie between mass and sub-space nodes means that Shivans would be more interested in Neutron Stars however, since they contain more "node clusters."

Whoah! Where did you find THIS info? The only "node cluster" I've seen is the three jump node cluster in Alpha Centauri in the FS1 mission titled "Exodus", the mission where you have to protect several supply and refugee convoys just after the SD Lucifer destroyed Vasuda Prime.

Where did you get the info that node clusters form near neutron stars? As far as I know, NONE of the systems on the FS map are neutron stars, nor have I found any official info from the FS1 and FS2 games that says something to that effect.

Ace, how do you know this?

------------------
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Former member of TCA
Member in good standing of 99th Skulls
Honorary member of TCS and UGC

"I created your civilization...now I will destroy it!"
--Ra, the Sun God
Title: FS3?
Post by: joek on November 07, 2001, 08:30:00 am
 
Quote
Originally posted by Su-tehp:
Whoah! Where did you find THIS info? The only "node cluster" I've seen is the three jump node cluster in Alpha Centauri in the FS1 mission titled "Exodus", the mission where you have to protect several supply and refugee convoys just after the SD Lucifer destroyed Vasuda Prime.

Where did you get the info that node clusters form near neutron stars? As far as I know, NONE of the systems on the FS map are neutron stars, nor have I found any official info from the FS1 and FS2 games that says something to that effect.

Ace, how do you know this?


It's really just a (I'm wanting to say hypothesis, but it's where you get one piece of information dervived from another (like A=B & B=C therefore A=C))...

In FS we're told that in-system jumps need the gravity well of a star. And interstellular nodes form between stars. Since these opennings into subspace require a gravity well, it can be assumed (without making an a** out of u and me  (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/lol.gif) ) that the greater the gravity well, more nodes can be formed.

However though, I wouldn't say that neutron stars have more nodes, because they don't exactly have more mass than the stars who's death created them (although they could have more nodes than a regular sun-like star).

In my campaign, I'm going to make mention that the black holes at the center of galaxies contain intergalactic nodes.   (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)

Joe.

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[This message has been edited by joek (edited 11-07-2001).]
Title: FS3?
Post by: Su-tehp on November 07, 2001, 12:05:00 pm
 
Quote
Originally posted by joek:
In FS we're told that in-system jumps need the gravity well of a star. And interstellular nodes form between stars. Since these opennings into subspace require a gravity well, it can be assumed (without making an a** out of u and me   (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/lol.gif) ) that the greater the gravity well, more nodes can be formed.

You might be assuming too much, Joe. Rather than extrapolating from A to B to C, you seem to be reasoning by analogy. The vast majority of jump nodes form and destabilize with nanoseconds. It is only a small handful that somehow stabilize for years (maybe decades or centuries). (This is all found in the "Subspace" entry in the FS2 Technical database.

How and why these nodes "naturally" stabilize remains unknown (Artificially stabilizing them can be done with a Knossos device, no problem.)

But jump nodes are not easy for the GTVA to find and map. Just because one star system may have 3 mapped/known nodes and another may have 4 mapped/known nodes and a third system may have only one mapped/known node has nothing to do with the star's gravity. It's only determinant on whether the GTVA has been able to discover/map the nodes.

Who knows? Maybe there is an unknown jump node in Alpha Centauri that leads right back to Sol and the GTVA could have used it to return to Earth even just after the SD Lucifer collapsed the Delta Serpentis node, but for one thing: the GTVA never knew it was there.

This is another reason why the Shivans are so dangerous; we know that they are more adept at finding jump nodes than we are. The Shivans managed to greatly outmaneuver the Terrans and Vasudans during the start of the First Great War by using undiscovered nodes in Ross 128, Ikeya and Vega, I think. (Petrarch even mentions this in his final Command Briefing near the end of FS2.)

FS 2.9 idea: Once the GTVA manages to capture the SJ Anhuradha in FS 2.9, the Terrans and Vasudans manage to get a hold of this jump node mapping technology. Certainly at the very least, the GTVA will have to acquire a map of Shivan-Andarta space in order to know where they're going to send the taskforce. Sending the GTVA taskforce to do a reconnoiter in enemy territory is one thing, but sending it into enemy territory completely blind is damn well another...

------------------
FRED Zone's Grammar editor/ FS history moderator
Former member of TCA
Member in good standing of 99th Skulls
Honorary member of TCS and UGC

"I created your civilization...now I will destroy it!"
--Ra, the Sun God
Title: FS3?
Post by: jonskowitz on November 07, 2001, 01:16:00 pm
 
Quote
Originally posted by Su-tehp:
This is another reason why the Shivans are so dangerous; we know that they are more adept at finding jump nodes than we are. The Shivans managed to greatly outmaneuver the Terrans and Vasudans during the start of the First Great War by using undiscovered nodes in Ross 128, Ikeya and Vega, I think. (Petrarch even mentions this in his final Command Briefing near the end of FS2.)

Don't forget that we know for a fact that they fought a war in this area of space at least once before.  So most of the data on jump nodes already existed for the Shivans, making thier maneuvering even easier.



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Title: FS3?
Post by: aldo_14 on November 07, 2001, 01:47:00 pm
 
Quote
Originally posted by karajorma:
Did you consider the fact that the reason shivans don`t use planets is because they have dyson spheres?
 Why would the shivans need to invade planets in other star systems. They probably haven`t finished inhabiting their systems. All they need to do to planets is bombard enemy cities from space (which is exactly what they did!)

 Someone else claimed that shivans are zero G creatures but it's pretty obvious from looking at a shivan that it isn`t.
 Shivans have muscles all over their bodies that wouldn`t be important in a zero G creature. In fact looking at a shivan it looks like a creature from a more massive planet than earth not less.  

Possibly the Shivans were forced from their planets in the first place... maybe they had to do it to themselves to survive, and in the process, they became warped physically and mentally and evolved into the genocidal race they are now.
Title: FS3?
Post by: LAW ENFORCER on November 07, 2001, 05:02:00 pm
Thats like saying what you said but in a warped and genocidle way becasue you have been warped having to use TS.
Title: FS3?
Post by: LAW ENFORCER on November 07, 2001, 05:04:00 pm
Err... entierly possoble then...
Title: FS3?
Post by: aldo_14 on November 08, 2001, 04:01:00 pm
 
Quote
Originally posted by LAW ENFORCER:
Err... entierly possoble then...

Exactly....

 (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)

I've been working on the premise that the Shivans were forced into space because it was too dangerous for them to try and live on a planet - that subspace was their best refuge / attack point.

The way i differ from TDM/JMs' plan is that I have the Shivans as being unable to build up any reasonable force without being forced to fight with huge losses.... that both the Shivans and the Nightmares have been warped by an eon of conflict, to be less than animals, more a primal destrucitve entity.... like 2 stars colliding.

I don't think the Shivans takes stars/... i think they kill them.  And they won't stop till everything is dead in the Galaxy, and those beyond.  And neither wil the Nightmares.
Title: FS3?
Post by: Su-tehp on November 08, 2001, 09:34:00 pm
Aldo, do you have a website for your campaign? I want to see what you've come up with so far.

------------------
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"I created your civilization...now I will destroy it!"
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Title: FS3?
Post by: Ace on November 08, 2001, 10:46:00 pm
Su-Tehp the correlation is that areas with heavier gravity wells require less energy for intra-system artificial jumps. This states that the "micro sub-space nodes" are more stable due to this.

It is only logical that since a natural node is simply a form of enlarged "micro node", that energy requirements are similarly less and so more of these nodes are easily acessable without the use of Knossos type technology.

Now simply a neutron star or similar dense object may not be enough, and I highly doubt "galactic nodes" exist.

This is all logical deduction from canon, mass is tied to stability of the "smaller nodes" Knossos technology is a bridge between these nodes and "natural nodes" by strengthening them. If "small nodes" are stronger with mass, then natural nodes are stronger or more prevalent with proper mass distribution in a local or galactic scale.

Edit: If you need more "proof" then this, go talk to Mike Breault or another writer at Volition.  (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/tongue.gif)

------------------
Ace
Staff member FreeSpace Watch
 http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/ ("http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/")

[This message has been edited by Ace (edited 11-08-2001).]
Title: FS3?
Post by: TDM/JM on November 08, 2001, 11:31:00 pm
 
Quote
Originally posted by Su-tehp:
FS 2.9 idea: Once the GTVA manages to capture the SJ Anhuradha in FS 2.9, the Terrans and Vasudans manage to get a hold of this jump node mapping technology. Certainly at the very least, the GTVA will have to acquire a map of Shivan-Andarta space in order to know where they're going to send the taskforce. Sending the GTVA taskforce to do a reconnoiter in enemy territory is one thing, but sending it into enemy territory completely blind is damn well another...

Plundering the Anuradha's quantum computer network gets the GTVA a lot of different things, including memetic and personality constructs of other races and individuals that the Shivans have encountered over the previous 250K years. Bosch's construct is in there, too . . . . along with requisite information on technologies, systems, nodes, etc. So there's nothing blind about the GTVA's incursion into Shivan space; they merely see through the glass darkly.  (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif)

Ace's point is pretty much my understanding of the node thing -- stellar gravity wells are local distortions in the underlying geometry of space, and one effect of this "roiling" is the creation of large numbers of micronodes -- which could be compared to bubbles in liquid that had been disturbed.

Portals stabilize collapsed nodes, or ramp up micronodes into usable phenomenon. The stability of a micronode means that they are much more common across the universe; the real problem is identifying suitable ones. It follows that micronodes exist in places where nodes would be rare or nonexistent.

Ascraeus



[This message has been edited by TDM/JM (edited 11-08-2001).]
Title: FS3?
Post by: aldo_14 on November 09, 2001, 03:10:00 am
 
Quote
Originally posted by Su-tehp:
Aldo, do you have a website for your campaign? I want to see what you've come up with so far.

Storyline details there are a bit sparse, but;

Siggy
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Title: FS3?
Post by: Su-tehp on November 09, 2001, 10:15:00 am
Aldo, check your siggy; the Reciprocity website is down  (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/frown.gif)

 
Quote
Originally posted by Ace:
Su-Tehp the correlation is that areas with heavier gravity wells require less energy for intra-system artificial jumps. This states that the "micro sub-space nodes" are more stable due to this.

It is only logical that since a natural node is simply a form of enlarged "micro node", that energy requirements are similarly less and so more of these nodes are easily acessable without the use of Knossos type technology.

Now simply a neutron star or similar dense object may not be enough, and I highly doubt "galactic nodes" exist.

This is all logical deduction from canon, mass is tied to stability of the "smaller nodes" Knossos technology is a bridge between these nodes and "natural nodes" by strengthening them. If "small nodes" are stronger with mass, then natural nodes are stronger or more prevalent with proper mass distribution in a local or galactic scale.


Yeah, this makes sense to me, I think. Just wanted the clarification.

As for your statement about "galatic nodes", do you mean jump nodes that could lead to other galaxies? (I think you're right about them; they probably don't exist, but a Knossos might be able to extend a jump range reach that far. Bosch even implies it in one of his monologues when he says that the nebula is thousands, if not billions, of light-years from Earth...)

 
Quote
Originally posted by Ace:
If you need more "proof" then this, go talk to Mike Breault or another writer at Volition.    (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/tongue.gif)

Fair enough.   (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif)


------------------
FRED Zone's Grammar editor/ FS history moderator
Former member of TCA
Member in good standing of 99th Skulls
Honorary member of TCS and UGC

"I created your civilization...now I will destroy it!"
--Ra, the Sun God


[This message has been edited by Su-tehp (edited 11-09-2001).]
Title: FS3?
Post by: Su-tehp on November 09, 2001, 10:29:00 am
 
Quote
Originally posted by TDM/JM:
Ace's point is pretty much my understanding of the node thing -- stellar gravity wells are local distortions in the underlying geometry of space, and one effect of this "roiling" is the creation of large numbers of micronodes -- which could be compared to bubbles in liquid that had been disturbed.

And like any bubble in boiling liquid, the vast majority of these (micro)nodes pop/destabilize in only a few nanoseconds, while only a small handful (AKA "stable/regular" jump nodes) stabilize for centuries or millenia (as per the "Subspace" entry in the FS2 Technical database).

Yeah, this makes sense, too.

------------------
FRED Zone's Grammar editor/ FS history moderator
Former member of TCA
Member in good standing of 99th Skulls
Honorary member of TCS and UGC

"I created your civilization...now I will destroy it!"
--Ra, the Sun God
Title: FS3?
Post by: aldo_14 on November 09, 2001, 12:14:00 pm
 
Quote
Originally posted by Su-tehp:
Aldo, check your siggy; the Reciprocity website is down    (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/frown.gif)

 Fair enough.     (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif)


******  me....   (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/spineyes.gif)
 http://uk.geocities.com/gunnery_control ("http://uk.geocities.com/gunnery_control")  

should work - need to dig around the site a bit, though.

(EDIT - that works - wow, never though that word would be censored.... i'll try again - ******  )



[This message has been edited by aldo_14 (edited 11-09-2001).]
Title: FS3?
Post by: Sandwich on November 11, 2001, 03:51:00 am
*bump*

What's the latest, TDM/JM?  (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)

------------------
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Title: FS3?
Post by: Su-tehp on November 11, 2001, 08:13:00 pm
TDM/JM, Fighteer and I just noticed something. You mentioned in your outline that the Capella supernova expelled a huge cloud of radioactive gas throughout GTVA space, poisoning severl Terran and Vasudan planets, forcing the populations underground.

There's a problem with that: this radioactivity would only spread through space at less than the speed of light, so the radiation wouldn't travel very far. If FS2.9 takes place only 6 years after FS2, then the absolute maximum the radioactivity could travel is 6 light-years. Considering the distances between stars, the radioactivity wouldn't be able to affect any other GTVA planets.

This isn't a huge deal in terms of the FS2.9 story, but you'll have to change Alpha 1/the player's first personal log entry accordingly. I guess we can just say the GTVA's economy crashed when Capella was destroyed.

Just look at the World Trade Center. While the U.S. and world economies were already in a downturn, the destruction of the WTC, containing offices of many different worldwide businesses, made the economy much worse off than it would have been. It could be the same effect with Capella; losing an entire solar system, with all of its resources, could cause a similar economic downturn for the GTVA, making Terran-Vasudan society "meaner and harder in the process," as you stated in Alpha 1's personal log entry.

------------------
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Former member of TCA
Member in good standing of 99th Skulls
Honorary member of TCS and UGC

"I created your civilization...now I will destroy it!"
--Ra, the Sun God
Title: FS3?
Post by: Nico on November 12, 2001, 12:35:00 am
Big difference tho: the towers were an economic center, Capella is said to be a lesser system. I don't think Capella itself would disrupt economy. It would be the hordes of refugees, the real trouble( tho a couple of planets could host them without much trouble I suppose).
Title: FS3?
Post by: jonskowitz on November 12, 2001, 01:04:00 am
You're forgetting about the disruption to trade routes from the change in node geometry as a result from the nova.

------------------
I told you that It ("http://www.geocities.com/jskgames/home.html") would be done by November, well, mostly anyway...
Title: FS3?
Post by: Su-tehp on November 12, 2001, 01:41:00 am
 
Quote
Originally posted by jonskowitz:
You're forgetting about the disruption to trade routes from the change in node geometry as a result from the nova.

Change in node geometry as a result of the nova? Where in the name of God's infinite Universe did THAT come from? That was NEVER in any official FS canon!

And Venom, Capella wasn't a lesser system. Petrarch refers to it as being a heavily populated system in one of his command briefings. If it's heavily populated, it would have to be an economic powerhouse. 250 million people were living in Capella; they can't ALL be farmers!  (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/lol.gif)

------------------
FRED Zone's Grammar editor/ FS history moderator
Former member of TCA
Member in good standing of 99th Skulls
Honorary member of TCS and UGC

"I created your civilization...now I will destroy it!"
--Ra, the Sun God
Title: FS3?
Post by: aldo_14 on November 12, 2001, 03:00:00 am
 
Quote
Originally posted by Su-tehp:
Change in node geometry as a result of the nova? Where in the name of God's infinite Universe did THAT come from? That was NEVER in any official FS canon!

And Venom, Capella wasn't a lesser system. Petrarch refers to it as being a heavily populated system in one of his command briefings. If it's heavily populated, it would have to be an economic powerhouse. 250 million people were living in Capella; they can't ALL be farmers!   (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/lol.gif)

Wonder what the effect of a massive gravitational shift like that would be, anyway.... combined with the artificial destabilisation of the exisitng nodes with Meson bombs.  It could have a 'domino effect'.

Title: FS3?
Post by: joek on November 12, 2001, 09:16:00 am
 
Quote
Originally posted by Ace:
...and I highly doubt "galactic nodes" exist.

Why not? If you can connect the vast distances between stars with subspace nodes, then why not the even vaster distances between galaxies (with nodes created by even more gravity like galactic black holes)? Besides, having galactic nodes gives a nice ending to my campaign, and it could mean that Shivans occupy most of the universe rather than most of our galaxy (oops, I've said too much).  (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)

 
Quote
Originally posted by Su-tehp:
If FS2.9 takes place only 6 years after FS2, then the absolute maximum the radioactivity could travel is 6 light-years. Considering the distances between stars, the radioactivity wouldn't be able to affect any other GTVA planets.

I've thought about that before, and it would be nice to make a nodemap using stars in their actual positions relative to each other, that way you could see how far Capella is in light years from its nearest node-neighbor and its nearest physical neighbor.

As the radiation (which would also consist of gamma rays and x-rays so some would travel at light speed) expands, I can imagine that the GTVA could also evacuate people from systems closer to Capella to systems farther from it (like isn't Deneb very far away).

 
Quote
Originally posted by Su-tehp:
Change in node geometry as a result of the nova? Where in the name of God's infinite Universe did THAT come from? That was NEVER in any official FS canon!

Again, why not? One, it allows us to think up of more reasons why the Shivans would want to destroy Capella (example ("http://www.joek.com/other/freespace/rev_fiction_5.shtml")). Two, if gravity and subspace nodes are related, then something has to happen when one star's gravity suddenly changes dramatically. I'm trying to think of how to describe this, so I'll pull in more text from before:

 
Quote
Originally posted by Su-tehp:
And like any bubble in boiling liquid, the vast majority of these (micro)nodes pop/destabilize in only a few nanoseconds, while only a small handful (AKA "stable/regular" jump nodes) stabilize for centuries or millenia (as per the "Subspace" entry in the FS2 Technical database).

Yes, think about Jupiter. Most could formations come and go, but the Great Red Spot has remained for centuries. It's all in the interactions of the clouds, winds, gases, heat, everything.

So, for all the stellular nodes in a galaxy, it's the same. Stable nodes form and stay stable, but if you throw a big disruption into the mix (a supernova/suddenly-changing-mass-of-a-star), it's going to affect the rest of the "node soup". Just like when Shoemaker-Levy crashed into Jupiter it changed and created new cloud patterns (think some nodes changing), but the Great Red Spot still remained (think other (stronger) nodes staying the same).

That's why I support the changing nodemap theory.  (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)

Also (while I'm keeping all my thoughts to one post  (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif) )...

 
Quote
Originally posted by Su-tehp:
I guess we can just say the GTVA's economy crashed when Capella was destroyed.

Yeah, I'm sure there would definately be some economic distress... but I wouldn't liken it to the WTC disaster. I'd think of it more like a World War. Lots of times, new discoveries are made out of necessity, like during a large war (think how WWII developed nuclear weapons). I'd think that Capella would be similar. Sure, you initially have to economic distress of jobs and resources being lost, millions of people having to find new homes and means of survival, etc.

But I think (at least in my wish-full thinking and for my campaign), that with this sudden influx of refugees, some new discoveries would be made because of the necessity of having to find ways of supporting all those refugees. Like in Frederik Pohl's "Mining The Oort", they're terraforming Mars so they can farm it to create more food for the growing population. But then that endeavor is going to be cut short because someone developed a way of growing plants inside of greenhouse-space-stations. I don't know what the GTVA's state of technology is in FS2 in regards to farming, but I can imagine that if they didn't have techniques like space-bound greenhouses, after Capella they might have the need to develop them.

So, after an initial economic downturn, new discoveries could come about which could then give the GTVA an economic boom.  (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)

Joe.

------------------
 (http://www.joek.com/cgi-local/fs2rev_image.pl)  ("http://www.joek.com/other/freespace/")
Title: FS3?
Post by: Su-tehp on November 12, 2001, 10:41:00 am
 
Quote
Originally posted by joek:
But I think (at least in my wish-full thinking and for my campaign), that with this sudden influx of refugees, some new discoveries would be made because of the necessity of having to find ways of supporting all those refugees. Like in Frederik Pohl's "Mining The Oort", they're terraforming Mars so they can farm it to create more food for the growing population. But then that endeavor is going to be cut short because someone developed a way of growing plants inside of greenhouse-space-stations. I don't know what the GTVA's state of technology is in FS2 in regards to farming, but I can imagine that if they didn't have techniques like space-bound greenhouses, after Capella they might have the need to develop them.

So, after an initial economic downturn, new discoveries could come about which could then give the GTVA an economic boom.    (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)

Joe.

Joe, this thread isn't about your campaign, it's about Ascraeus' FS3 campaign. All the ideas I'm posting here have to do with his outline, not anyone else's campaign. All this talk and speculation about galatic nodes, shifting gravity altering the galatic node map and such is all very entertaining and infomative, but this particular post concerns Ascraeus' ideas for his FS3 campaign. I'd much rather leave wild (and non-relevant) speculation out of this thread. It would be more appropriate to have it in a different thread.

The talk of altering the galatic node map is particularly inappropriate (at least it seems that way to me...) because Ascraeus already designed a map for FS2.9 (the link for it is at the beginning of this thread)and there is not a single hint that any alteration of the node map occurred.

As for the economic recovery idea, well, the BEL campaign also had that and Ascraeus decided he didn't want to have that idea in his story long ago.

My speculations and ideas are posted here to stay in line with his outline. If I find any inconsistencies in his outline (like the radiation thing not being able to travel so far that it would affect all of GTVA space because all natural phenomona can only travel at less than the speed of light), then I post here with ideas of how he can make everything plausible and consistent with his story ideas. Since Ascraeus' radiation idea can't plausibly be responsible for the GTVA economic downturn in his story, I tried to post a different rationale for the downturn (namely the loss of resources from Capella). Arguing/speculating why the GTVA didn't suffer a downturn in the first place doesn't really help Ascraeus develop his story, which is what we're trying to do in this thread.

(Apologies for the harsh tone; it's been a rough month.)

------------------
FRED Zone's Grammar editor/ FS history moderator
Former member of TCA
Member in good standing of 99th Skulls
Honorary member of TCS and UGC

"I created your civilization...now I will destroy it!"
--Ra, the Sun God


[This message has been edited by Su-tehp (edited 11-12-2001).]
Title: FS3?
Post by: TDM/JM on November 12, 2001, 04:41:00 pm
 
Quote
Originally posted by Su-tehp:
TDM/JM, Fighteer and I just noticed something. You mentioned in your outline that the Capella supernova expelled a huge cloud of radioactive gas throughout GTVA space, poisoning severl Terran and Vasudan planets, forcing the populations underground.

There's a problem with that: this radioactivity would only spread through space at less than the speed of light, so the radiation wouldn't travel very far. If FS2.9 takes place only 6 years after FS2, then the absolute maximum the radioactivity could travel is 6 light-years. Considering the distances between stars, the radioactivity wouldn't be able to affect any other GTVA planets.

*Ahem*. Out of town, wasn't around for awhile. Su-tehp, you have a good point. Up to a point. We'd noticed this one before -- but the idea of a Shivan "leave-behind" economic and social superweapon to severely damage the GTVA was too good to pass up. So here's the explanation -- but you're right -- the draft intro screen didn't make it clear.

(1) Some classes of neutrinos show possible FTL characteristics. So there would be three wave fronts in the Capella supernovae: FTL neutrinos, C-velocity radiatiation, and much slower debris, such as excited plasmas and ionized gas. However, the neutrino front would have to be *very* densely packed. That's possible in a supernovae phenomenon, but only out to a limited number of light years. So we're thinking that there would be immediate short-term damage to nearby systems, and then another, sustained hammerblow to more distant systems in 20 or thirty years. (Which means . . . . the GTVA is *doomed*, and all the possbilities for drama that brings.)

(2) On distances -- I've always assumed "shrunken parsecs" in the FS universe -- otherwise the two original games wouldn't have made much sense. If you try to match the characteristics of known stellar systems to "V-canon," you'll run into a few problems -- as you and others have observed. Basically we're talking about "known space" being a few dozen light years across. In that framework, the Capella phenomenon could devastate a fair amount of real estate in a dozen years. And, of course, the social and economic effects of the "coming hard times" in systems further away would be devastating -- we all know how the stock markets react, don't we?  (Well, so did the Shivans, apparently.)

Things progress, and it looks like something on this outline is being done. The folks who are showing an interest want some confidentiality -- I guess they've been burned in the past by publicity. But there are detail changes as these sorts of issues are being worked out. I very much appreciate the comments being made in this thread -- everybody's been very helpful. May I pick your brains and ask for opinions in the future? I'd very much like to have a forum like this one to "run some ideas by." Thanks!

Ascraeus

Title: FS3?
Post by: Su-tehp on November 12, 2001, 08:34:00 pm
   
Quote
Originally posted by TDM/JM:
(1) Some classes of neutrinos show possible FTL characteristics. So there would be three wave fronts in the Capella supernovae: FTL neutrinos, C-velocity radiatiation, and much slower debris, such as excited plasmas and ionized gas. However, the neutrino front would have to be *very* densely packed. That's possible in a supernovae phenomenon, but only out to a limited number of light years. So we're thinking that there would be immediate short-term damage to nearby systems, and then another, sustained hammerblow to more distant systems in 20 or thirty years. (Which means . . . . the GTVA is *doomed*, and all the possbilities for drama that brings.)

Now that this has been explained, this makes sense. Damn, I didn't even know about the FTL neutrinos had even been theorized yet; you really DO learn something new every day!   (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/drevil.gif)  (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif)   (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)

   
Quote
Originally posted by TDM/JM:
(2) On distances -- I've always assumed "shrunken parsecs" in the FS universe -- otherwise the two original games wouldn't have made much sense. If you try to match the characteristics of known stellar systems to "V-canon," you'll run into a few problems -- as you and others have observed. Basically we're talking about "known space" being a few dozen light years across. In that framework, the Capella phenomenon could devastate a fair amount of real estate in a dozen years. And, of course, the social and economic effects of the "coming hard times" in systems further away would be devastating -- we all know how the stock markets react, don't we?  (Well, so did the Shivans, apparently.)

Yeah, the [V] starmap isn't exactly what you would call a concession to realism    (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/lol.gif) but that's neither here nor there. The "shrunken parsecs" thing is [V] canon, so we might as well stick with it for consistency's sake. This is a sci-fi game we're talking about here, after all. Despite my leanings towards sticking to realism (I was trained in the theatre as a contemporary realist actor), realism should take a back seat to [V] canon consistency here.

   
Quote
Originally posted by TDM/JM:
Things progress, and it looks like something on this outline is being done. The folks who are showing an interest want some confidentiality -- I guess they've been burned in the past by publicity. But there are detail changes as these sorts of issues are being worked out. I very much appreciate the comments being made in this thread -- everybody's been very helpful. May I pick your brains and ask for opinions in the future? I'd very much like to have a forum like this one to "run some ideas by." Thanks!

Ascraeus

Ascraeus, this is a significant favor you are asking us, one that cannot be granted lightly. I'm going to need  some time to think about this. Give me a moment, please.

*walks a few paces out of earshot, then proceeds to hop and dance in barely restrained glee*

*walks back to Ascraeus*

I've decided to accept your kind and generous offer.    (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/lol.gif)   (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)

------------------
FRED Zone's Grammar editor/ FS history moderator
Former member of TCA
Member in good standing of 99th Skulls
Honorary member of TCS and UGC

"I created your civilization...now I will destroy it!"
--Ra, the Sun God

[This message has been edited by Su-tehp (edited 11-12-2001).]
Title: FS3?
Post by: Shrike on November 13, 2001, 10:40:00 am
 
Quote
Originally posted by TDM/JM:
(1) Some classes of neutrinos show possible FTL characteristics. So there would be three wave fronts in the Capella supernovae: FTL neutrinos, C-velocity radiatiation, and much slower debris, such as excited plasmas and ionized gas. However, the neutrino front would have to be *very* densely packed. That's possible in a supernovae phenomenon, but only out to a limited number of light years. So we're thinking that there would be immediate short-term damage to nearby systems, and then another, sustained hammerblow to more distant systems in 20 or thirty years. (Which means . . . . the GTVA is *doomed*, and all the possbilities for drama that brings.)

Even if neutrinos can go FTL, they won't do anything other than cause a blip on neutrino detection gear over interstellar ranges.  My astronomy prof said that you'd receive a lethal dose of neutrino radiation at Jupiter's distance.  Even if he's off by a factor of 100, you're still looking at the neutrino wavefront being dissipated to effectively nothing by the time it reaches any other star.  The EM radiation from Capella is a different matter.  However, given that the FS2 Capella seemed to be some sort of main sequence G-type star, which cannot naturally go supernova, it is likely that it would be more akin to a 'mini-supernova' simply because it wouldn't have the mass of a true presupernova star.
Title: FS3?
Post by: Sandwich on November 13, 2001, 04:31:00 pm
 
Quote
Originally posted by Shrike:
However, given that the FS2 Capella seemed to be some sort of main sequence G-type star, which cannot naturally go supernova, it is likely that it would be more akin to a 'mini-supernova' simply because it wouldn't have the mass of a true presupernova star.

But then when you consider that the star did go supernova...  (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif)


------------------
America, stand assured that Israel truly understands what you are going through.

"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar ("http://www.geocities.com/sandvich/index.html"), the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)
Title: FS3?
Post by: Shrike on November 13, 2001, 06:47:00 pm
 
Quote
Originally posted by sandwich:
But then when you consider that the star did go supernova...   (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif)

I think you missed the point of my post.  A presupernova star has something like 8+ solar masses, a yellow star like Capella would probably have no more than about 1.5.  That's a big difference.
Title: FS3?
Post by: TDM/JM on November 13, 2001, 10:29:00 pm
 
Quote
Originally posted by Shrike:
Even if neutrinos can go FTL, they won't do anything other than cause a blip on neutrino detection gear over interstellar ranges.  My astronomy prof said that you'd receive a lethal dose of neutrino radiation at Jupiter's distance.  Even if he's off by a factor of 100, you're still looking at the neutrino wavefront being dissipated to effectively nothing by the time it reaches any other star.  The EM radiation from Capella is a different matter.  However, given that the FS2 Capella seemed to be some sort of main sequence G-type star, which cannot naturally go supernova, it is likely that it would be more akin to a 'mini-supernova' simply because it wouldn't have the mass of a true presupernova star.

The last thing I'm going to do is get into a debate with your astronomy professor, especially when all I've got is a few different degrees in physics, history, and journalism. He/she knows the stuff, and I be an amateur by comparison.  (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif)

Some things, though:

(1) From what I've read, one of the proposals on FTL neutrinos indicates that increased energy profiles give both mass and intensity, which means that such a wave front would behave more along the lines of hard EM than "garden-variety" neutrinos. Enough for the scenario we're discussing here? Unknown, but not unthinkable. And as long as it's "unknown," it's fair game for SF.

(2) This gets into an interesting issue: in building campaigns or games, or writing SF, or whatever, how do you do the science? Do you play around a little, or do you stick religiously to What Is Known? If we're completely honest, there's very little about V-canon or FS that's scientific -- nobody's going to be hot-rodding through space in cool little fighters 300 years from now, unless, perhaps, we're imagining pilot-and-ship being the same bio-engineered organism, perhaps. Naw, it'll all be VR, by remote, and computer-managed. My take: take some chances, deviate from What Is Known occasionally and *carefully*, but be logical and coherent, and make it fun and interesting. All good SF follows that creed, even the hard stuff from Clarke, Benford, Bear, etc. So really what we we're arguing here, Shrike, is what's believable in the context of the game.

(3) Had an interesting discussion with a guy named Sandwich, and he sketched out the following idea: The Shivans opened a remote plasma-teched portal inside Capella's core, and another inside the core of an unknown, massive star. Net effect: mass and energy pour from the massive star into Capella's core, eventually creating conditions for collapse-rebound-detonation characteristics of a supernovae. So Capella *does* have the mass; the Shivans added it. Thoughts?

Ascraeus
Title: FS3?
Post by: Shrike on November 13, 2001, 10:48:00 pm
Well, the thing is, you can easily cover part 2 without having to appeal to out there ideas.  The destruction of Capella could very well result in a significant downturn in the GTVA's economy, and it also makes it more human, more believable when you don't always appeal to outside forces unless you have to.
Title: FS3?
Post by: Su-tehp on November 13, 2001, 10:48:00 pm
   
Quote
Originally posted by TDM/JM:
(3) Had an interesting discussion with a guy named Sandwich, and he sketched out the following idea: The Shivans opened a remote plasma-teched portal inside Capella's core, and another inside the core of an unknown, massive star. Net effect: mass and energy pour from the massive star into Capella's core, eventually creating conditions for collapse-rebound-detonation characteristics of a supernovae. So Capella *does* have the mass; the Shivans added it. Thoughts?

Ascraeus

I'm not sure about this. The field that the juggernaut fleet created was rippling from the juggernauts to the Capella star. It seems simpler to say that the subspace field generated from the juggernaut fleet somehow "compressed" the star, thereby increasing its "mass" such that it would go supernova. I don't know if a further explanation of HOW the star went nova is needed, as opposed to WHY the Shivans made Capella go nova. And I think Ascraeus already has an idea about why the Shivans made Capella go nova.

Better to go with Occam's Razor: the simplest theory is the most likely to be true. Rather than go into a complicated pseudo-scientific explanation about "transporting stellar matter across thousands of light-years", we can just as easily say that the subspace flux generated by the juggernauts made the star go nova.

When the juggernauts finished generating their field, the glow around their ships "detonated". This suggests some kind of "critical mass detonation" rather than some sort of material transportation.

------------------
FRED Zone's ("http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/fredzone/home.shtml") Grammar editor/ FS history moderator
Former member of TCA
Member in good standing of 99th Skulls
Honorary member of TCS and UGC

"I created your civilization...now I will destroy it!"
--Ra, the Sun God


[This message has been edited by Su-tehp (edited 11-13-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Su-tehp (edited 11-13-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Su-tehp (edited 11-13-2001).]
Title: FS3?
Post by: Shrike on November 13, 2001, 10:53:00 pm
But again, pumping solar masses worth of crap into the core of Capella doesn't fit with what we get from the missions.  There is no mention of increased gravitation, just some sort of subspace field.  What is more likely is that the Shivans were either drastically altering some physical constants in the star's core to cause a supernova, or were adding/subtracting large amounts of energy.
Title: FS3?
Post by: Su-tehp on November 13, 2001, 11:18:00 pm
 
Quote
Originally posted by Shrike:
But again, pumping solar masses worth of crap into the core of Capella doesn't fit with what we get from the missions.  There is no mention of increased gravitation, just some sort of subspace field.  What is more likely is that the Shivans were either drastically altering some physical constants in the star's core to cause a supernova, or were adding/subtracting large amounts of energy.

Yeah, this is what I meant, but I was editing my post as Shrike posted this.
Title: FS3?
Post by: joek on November 14, 2001, 08:58:00 am
 
Quote
Originally posted by Su-tehp:
Joe, this thread isn't about your campaign, it's about Ascraeus' FS3 campaign. All the ideas I'm posting here have to do with his outline, not anyone else's campaign. All this talk and speculation about galatic nodes, shifting gravity altering the galatic node map and such is all very entertaining and infomative, but this particular post concerns Ascraeus' ideas for his FS3 campaign. I'd much rather leave wild (and non-relevant) speculation out of this thread. It would be more appropriate to have it in a different thread.

Sorry about that, but it's only natural for topics to drift (especially when scientific topics are brought up and we all become theorists). But then that's why people like yourself need to bring it back on topic.

And yes, I do have a tendency to say "my campaign" too much. But it's not for me trying to pimp it (as I rarely get to work on it), but I just use it go give some backing to my theories/ideas. I mean if I mention an idea of mine, but I'm not willing to support my own idea in a campaign or anything, then who cares about my idea (you may say who cares anyway)?

Besides, isn't the point of thread discussion to throw ideas around? Maybe some ideas won't work for his campaign, but those ideas might give him or others new ideas.

 
Quote
Originally posted by Su-tehp:
(Apologies for the harsh tone; it's been a rough month.)

No problem, I've been having a rough two months since I've been unemployed.

Now about the topic at hand... about the radiation vs. 6 years... I have another idea: why not change the date of the campaign to something greater than 6 years. I mean if you weigh in the amount of time for the scientists to figure out how to build a Knossos device, and then the amount of time to gather materials and build such a device (look how long it took to create the Colossus)... maybe 6 years is too soon after FS2?

Joe.
Title: FS3?
Post by: Sandwich on November 14, 2001, 05:45:00 pm
 
Quote
Originally posted by TDM/JM:
...Net effect: mass and energy pour from the massive star into Capella's core, eventually creating conditions for collapse-rebound-detonation characteristics of a supernovae. So Capella *does* have the mass; the Shivans added it...

Clarification: My original theory was somewhat different, but it, too, was based on the idea that the Shivans wanted to transfer stellar matter via subspace. Ascraeus, you were the one to use that as a basis for this theory - which, I might add, is simpler than my theory...  (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif)

 
Quote
Originally posted by Su-tehp:
Better to go with Occam's Razor: the simplest theory is the most likely to be true...

Occams Razor is an excellent guide to follow when searching for The Truth™, but that's not what we're looking for. We're looking for an explanation that 1) isn't off the wall, yet 2) is intruiging enough to be able to continue storylines from.

 
Quote
Originally posted by Su-tehp:
When the juggernauts finished generating their field, the glow around their ships "detonated". This suggests some kind of "critical mass detonation" rather than some sort of material transportation.

Not nessicarily - it could simply have been the SJ's completing the formation of a subspace node. Or, to hint at my theory, it could have been an emergency shutdown and escape... (Ascraeus - shhhhh.... (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif) )  (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)

 
Quote
Originally posted by Shrike:
But again, pumping solar masses worth of crap into the core of Capella doesn't fit with what we get from the missions.  There is no mention of increased gravitation, just some sort of subspace field.  What is more likely is that the Shivans were either drastically altering some physical constants in the star's core to cause a supernova, or were adding/subtracting large amounts of energy.

Because of the nature of the game, I would have to agree here, but do you truly think that in a Real Life™ FS2 situation you would be informed of half as much as you know as the infamous Alpha 1, let alone being notified of changing gravitic levels!? No way.

Funny you mentioned subtracting (another oblique refernce to my theory  (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/tongue.gif))... Does anyone know if a star could supernova if it had mass subtracted suddenly?


------------------
America, stand assured that Israel truly understands what you are going through.

"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar ("http://www.geocities.com/sandvich/index.html"), the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)
Title: FS3?
Post by: Ace on November 14, 2001, 11:34:00 pm
Correction on a misconception in the thread: The node chart is designed to show how the sub-space node "network" is arranged, nothing more and nothing less. Relative travel times may also be within this framework, but this is not proven.

Alpha Centuari in the FS universe is still 4 lightyears away, no "compressed parsecs" or other odd phenomenon then the fact that no nodes lead directly to Sol.

So it stands that Capella's shockwave wavefront by the time this story concept would occur would have negligible effect on the GTVA within 6 years. (unless a GTVA star is within 6 lightyears from Capella)

------------------
Ace
Staff member FreeSpace Watch
 http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/ ("http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/")
Title: FS3?
Post by: karajorma on November 15, 2001, 08:15:00 am
Okay a couple of points to make here

1) Re: dyson spheres. Just had a though about this. The gravitational pull inside a sphere is zero. The only gravitational pull inside a dyson sphere would be that of the sun in the centre.
 This could explain why the shivans built a dyson sphere. If they have adapted to being zero G creatures they would have trouble living on a planet but maybe they still need large nearly flat areas to build things on.
 
 Another point. Who says they live on the inside of the sphere? Maybe they use the inside for energy collection and live on the outside (which would have gravity!)

Re: Capellan supernova

I`ve heard two explainations for why a star goes nova. One said it was due to the build up of iron in the core making the star to heavy. The second said it was due to the star losing energy through the fusion of iron rather than gaining it. Either way could you make a star go supernova by jumping a large iron asteroid into its core? Maybe that's how the shivan's did it. (shouldn`t cause a large increase in mass either since the asteroid goes right into the centre of the star)
Title: FS3?
Post by: Pavonis on November 15, 2001, 09:29:00 am
 
Quote
Originally posted by Ace:
Correction on a misconception in the thread: The node chart is designed to show how the sub-space node "network" is arranged, nothing more and nothing less. Relative travel times may also be within this framework, but this is not proven.

Alpha Centuari in the FS universe is still 4 lightyears away, no "compressed parsecs" or other odd phenomenon then the fact that no nodes lead directly to Sol.

So it stands that Capella's shockwave wavefront by the time this story concept would occur would have negligible effect on the GTVA within 6 years. (unless a GTVA star is within 6 lightyears from Capella)

The misconception is yours. Read the thread. These topics have been covered in detail, and the folks who commented aren't saying what you say they're saying.

It's common knowledge that Volition wasn't very interested in stellar topography when they put together the FS "universe". And there's no reason why they should have been. It's a game for fun, after all. But the dialogue, the node stuctures and the references to other systems indicate a local structure that doesn't exist in reality. "Short parsecs" was an expression that recognizes this fact. The guy/gal was using a metaphor, not describing an actual condition. And since distance is not a "known" factor in FS doctrine, people can pretty much play around with this factor to make the story interesting.

As far as a Capella shockwave, Ascraeus is right. There has been some work done on FTL neutrinos, they would have different, more active characteristics than neutrinos, more like hard EM, if they exist, they could fry planetary environments out to the parsec range, and they do provide an interesting twist to the shockwave theory. But you miss the point if you think it's all about the Capella supernova. It's about the effect of a diabolical Shivan weapon on GTVA civilization, and that's what's interesting here. Let's discuss that, rather than shut the conversation down by trying to pose as an authority.   (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/rolleyes.gif)

Title: FS3?
Post by: Pavonis on November 15, 2001, 09:43:00 am
 
Quote
Originally posted by karajorma:
Okay a couple of points to make here

1) Re: dyson spheres. Just had a though about this. The gravitational pull inside a sphere is zero. The only gravitational pull inside a dyson sphere would be that of the sun in the centre.
 This could explain why the shivans built a dyson sphere. If they have adapted to being zero G creatures they would have trouble living on a planet but maybe they still need large nearly flat areas to build things on.
 
 Another point. Who says they live on the inside of the sphere? Maybe they use the inside for energy collection and live on the outside (which would have gravity!)

Re: Capellan supernova

I`ve heard two explainations for why a star goes nova. One said it was due to the build up of iron in the core making the star to heavy. The second said it was due to the star losing energy through the fusion of iron rather than gaining it. Either way could you make a star go supernova by jumping a large iron asteroid into its core? Maybe that's how the shivan's did it. (shouldn`t cause a large increase in mass either since the asteroid goes right into the centre of the star)

Better comment.  (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif)

On gravity in a Dyson Sphere: surface "gravity" would be provided by centrifugal force as the sphere spins around the "common point" (where the star would be parked)at center. The star would "anchor" the spin. If you don't spin the sphere, you'd have stability and drift problems.

On Shivans living outside, and collecting energy inside: interesting idea. Why don't you develop this a bit further.

On iron, stellar cores, and asteroids: a star fuses hydrogen into helium until that "fuel" runs out. Then it compresses, because fusion energy is no longer there to "hold up" the immense mass. At some point in the comression, the energy level soars, and fusion of helium into heavier elements begins. When all the helium is converted, the star compresses again, and these heavier elements began fusing into still-heavier elements, until the "iron horizon" is reached. Nothing except extremely exotic conditions can convert iron into heavier elements, so the star collapses catastrophically under its own mass. If it's the mass of the sun or less, it becomes a white dwarf. If it's several times the mass of the sun, the collapse "rebounds" when the "strong force" horizon is reached, when the star can no longer compress without distorting the strong force that holds the internal components of its atoms together. That rebound will blow off about half the star's mass into space, and that's your supernova.

So an iron asteroid won't do it. Even dropping a chunk of iron the size of Jupiter into a small star like the sun wouldn't have an appreciable effect.
Title: FS3?
Post by: Pavonis on November 15, 2001, 09:53:00 am
One futher point on stellar fusion: if the star has a bit more mass than the sun, the rebound will blow material into space, and what's left will compress into a neutron star or pulsar. That's a star about fifty kilometers in size, with the mass and gravity of a good size star, a wicked spray of radiation, and a composition of degraded or "crushed" atoms. It'll be surrounded by a nebula. The Crab Nebula in "real life" is such a structure.

If the star has a lot more mass than the sun, nothing will stop compression, and the it'll bend the geometry of space to infinity, becoming a black hole. Black holes suck of lot of their rebound nebula back in.
Title: FS3?
Post by: joek on November 15, 2001, 10:41:00 am
 
Quote
Originally posted by Ace:
Correction on a misconception in the thread: The node chart is designed to show how the sub-space node "network" is arranged, nothing more and nothing less. Relative travel times may also be within this framework, but this is not proven.

Alpha Centuari in the FS universe is still 4 lightyears away, no "compressed parsecs" or other odd phenomenon then the fact that no nodes lead directly to Sol.

So it stands that Capella's shockwave wavefront by the time this story concept would occur would have negligible effect on the GTVA within 6 years. (unless a GTVA star is within 6 lightyears from Capella)

Very true. Like the London tube maps ("http://www.thetube.com/content/tubemap/images/tube_map.jpg"), the FS nodemap represents node relationships rather than star locations (although I think they could have done a better job of this).

Needless to say, if you want to put the issue of who's going to get hit first by Capella's supernova (and how long it's going to take), I've created a 3D starmap in FRED2 representing the actual star locations. See this thread. ("http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/Forum1/HTML/000378.html#6") It should help to put Capella-supernova-radiation arguments to rest (at least I hope)  (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif).

Joe.

------------------
 (http://www.joek.com/cgi-local/fs2rev_image.pl)  ("http://www.joek.com/other/freespace/")
Title: FS3?
Post by: Shrike on November 15, 2001, 11:02:00 am
 
Quote
Originally posted by Pavonis:
One futher point on stellar fusion: if the star has a bit more mass than the sun, the rebound will blow material into space, and what's left will compress into a neutron star or pulsar. That's a star about fifty kilometers in size, with the mass and gravity of a good size star, a wicked spray of radiation, and a composition of degraded or "crushed" atoms. It'll be surrounded by a nebula. The Crab Nebula in "real life" is such a structure.

If the star has a lot more mass than the sun, nothing will stop compression, and the it'll bend the geometry of space to infinity, becoming a black hole. Black holes suck of lot of their rebound nebula back in.

More than a bit more mass, the supernova remnant has to be at least 1.4 solar masses to form a neutron star.  I think the minumum for a natural supernova is having a parent star of at least 8 solar masses, possibly more.  I can look at my astrophysics book when I get home.
Title: FS3?
Post by: karajorma on November 16, 2001, 07:34:00 pm
 Rather than blaming radiation from capella for the financial ruin of the GTVA why not blame the COST of preparing for the radiation.
 All the cities near capella have to be buried, shielded or evacuated. The drain on the GTVA would be immense.
Title: FS3?
Post by: karajorma on November 16, 2001, 08:11:00 pm
 
Quote
Originally posted by Pavonis:
Better comment.   (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif)

On gravity in a Dyson Sphere: surface "gravity" would be provided by centrifugal force as the sphere spins around the "common point" (where the star would be parked)at center. The star would "anchor" the spin. If you don't spin the sphere, you'd have stability and drift problems.  

Stability problems can be dealt with by mounting bussard ramjets on the inside of the sphere (or better yet poking through the shpere!). It's a brute force method but a lot easier than trying to rotate a sphere that size at the speeds needed to generate centrifugal force (not to mention having the the sphere not rip itself apart when you try to spin the sphere up).
 You`re going to need ramjets or some other type of engine on a dyson sphere anyway or else a solar flare will push the sphere out of it's orbit (yes I`ve read Ringworld Engineers!)
 Secondly if you spin the sphere you get variations in the gravity. The equator would be under full G but the poles would be weightless. While that might be useful, the majority of the sphere would be under less than full G and largely useless.  

 
Quote
Originally posted by Pavonis:
So an iron asteroid won't do it. Even dropping a chunk of iron the size of Jupiter into a small star like the sun wouldn't have an appreciable effect.

opps my bad. I was under the impression that fusion of iron into heavier atoms was the cause of a supernova when in fact it's mearly a side effect.  (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
Title: FS3?
Post by: SS_Bones on November 16, 2001, 10:11:00 pm
Damn, this is way over my head  (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif) I need to study more. Very good reading material though  (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)

------------------
Cdr, Satans Soldiers
"Kill em all & let GOD sort em out"
Title: FS3?
Post by: SS-Blue Lion on November 16, 2001, 10:25:00 pm
Yea, I got lost like a dozen posts in  (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif) Bones, email me, uh...now!  (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)

------------------
Fastest Man Alive
Let's Go Terps!
Title: FS3?
Post by: jonskowitz on November 17, 2001, 12:06:00 am
Uh, kaj, hate to be the one who points this out but Bussard ramjets only work at significant percentages of c.  

Besides, the object would have to be rotating from the time of it's construction (read: the components would need to maintain an orbit while the bits are being built and joined together).

------------------
I told you that It ("http://www.geocities.com/jskgames/home.html") would be done by November, well, mostly anyway...

[This message has been edited by jonskowitz (edited 11-16-2001).]
Title: FS3?
Post by: karajorma on November 17, 2001, 06:00:00 am
Build them big! Accelerate the protons up to high speed in the ramjet itself.
 Remember that unlike a ship (the usual use of ramjets) you`ve got an entire stars energy at your disposal so the energy reqired to generate large magnetic fields isn`t a problem. Build them over 1000km in size and it won't matter what speed the ionised hydrogen goes in at.  (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
 Your ramjet is going to have to be huge anyway because you wouldn`t want the exhast gases anywhere near your dyson sphere.
 An added bonus is that you could use the exhast as a weapon! (especially if you can figure out how to make it lase like they did with the meteor defense system in Ringworld)  (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)

Yes the parts of the sphere would have to be orbiting the star so you wouldn`t have to spin the sphere to make it rotate but at 1AU the orbital rotation speed is around 9km per second (back of an envelope calculation). Assuming Larry Niven did his sums correctly when he wrote Ringworld you need 770miles per second for nearly 1G. That would put a lot more strain on dyson sphere.

BTW I found a great website about dyson spheres here http://www.student.nada.kth.se/~nv91-asa/dysonFAQ.html ("http://www.student.nada.kth.se/~nv91-asa/dysonFAQ.html")

Apparently living on the outside of a dyson sphere would give some gravity but not a huge amount  (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
Title: FS3?
Post by: Nico on November 17, 2001, 06:19:00 am
Spheres would not fit with shivan design, no?
Why not a ... Dyson grid? mmh... wait, that's my idea, so: why not a Venom Grid (  (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif) )?
replace the sphere by a weblike structure, that would use much less resourcs to build it (imagine a geosphere in wireframe). in the holes, shivans could put some kinds of salar sails that would receive all the solar energy. The shivans wold live inside the wireframe, rather than on one side of it. The wire structure would allow the construction to be much more flexible, and it could be able to sustain much more easily all the gravital forces and stuff like that. And it would look better for a shivan structure  (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
Title: FS3?
Post by: TDM/JM on November 17, 2001, 09:44:00 am
Great stuff, people! Ramjet stabilization, Shivan-Dyson Grids, etc. I'm taking notes, keep it up!

Need clarifying: what's everybody's opinion about Shivan psychology, as might be expressed in their habitat designs?  

Ascraeus
Title: FS3?
Post by: aldo_14 on November 17, 2001, 09:52:00 am
 
Quote
Originally posted by TDM/JM:
Great stuff, people! Ramjet stabilization, Shivan-Dyson Grids, etc. I'm taking notes, keep it up!

Need clarifying: what's everybody's opinion about Shivan psychology, as might be expressed in their habitat designs?  

Ascraeus

I reckon they have pretty much no psychology - basically driven by an urge to kill, and all their emotions / actions are driven by that.  I think Shivan designs would be very 'simple', bare bones, nothing for comfort, just functionality.  I.e. nothing that could be interpreted as artistic.... also, their installations should look as 'wierd' as possible, as they are suppossed to be totally alien in technology, ships, etc......  so have things that would never be on a Terran / Vasudan installations, but which serve an (possibly unspecified) purpose.

------------------
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Title: FS3?
Post by: Nico on November 17, 2001, 09:54:00 am
for my grid, imagine lots of rakshasas ( veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery big ones of course) stuck the one with the others  (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
Title: FS3?
Post by: joek on November 17, 2001, 11:43:00 am
 
Quote
Originally posted by venom2506:
Spheres would not fit with shivan design, no?
Why not a ... Dyson grid? mmh... wait, that's my idea, so: why not a Venom Grid (   (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif) )?
replace the sphere by a weblike structure, that would use much less resourcs to build it (imagine a geosphere in wireframe). in the holes, shivans could put some kinds of salar sails that would receive all the solar energy. The shivans wold live inside the wireframe, rather than on one side of it. The wire structure would allow the construction to be much more flexible, and it could be able to sustain much more easily all the gravital forces and stuff like that. And it would look better for a shivan structure   (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)

Yeah, like Shivan ship yards so huge that they are the size of Dyson spheres (it would help explain how they build so many Sathani  (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)).

 
Quote
Originally posted by TDM/JM:
Need clarifying: what's everybody's opinion about Shivan psychology, as might be expressed in their habitat designs?  

Shivan psychology?

As for what we've seen of them, that could very well just be their military branch. Imagine some alien thinking that all humans walk around with big backpacks, camoflage, rifles, and eat drab means in plastic bags.

Who knows, the entire rest of their civilization could live in some form of subspace, making music and art, etc; and they come into our space to war with us because we keep going into their subspace.

But that's not what I really think as part of the Grand Scheme idea I've come up with. To me, the Shivans are afraid of us (hence why they're so bent on destroying us).

Joe.

------------------
 (http://www.joek.com/cgi-local/fs2rev_image.pl)  ("http://www.joek.com/other/freespace/")
Title: FS3?
Post by: Su-tehp on November 17, 2001, 11:45:00 am
 
Quote
Originally posted by TDM/JM:
Great stuff, people! Ramjet stabilization, Shivan-Dyson Grids, etc. I'm taking notes, keep it up!

Need clarifying: what's everybody's opinion about Shivan psychology, as might be expressed in their habitat designs?  

Ascraeus

There's a theory in the FS2 database saying that Shivan psychology is probably similar to an ant or insect colony. If I remember correctly, it was called the "hive mind" theory. Basically, a group of Shivans can only function when there is a central leader giving orders; once that leader has been eliminated, the rest of the group begins to break down and cannot coordinate their actions. This was evidenced by the behavior of the Shivans during the First Great War after the SD Lucifer was destroyed. After the Lucifer was destroyed, the Shivans couldn't coordinate their fleet effectively and the GTA and PVN were able to separate, corner and eventually destroy the Lucifer fleet over the course of several months.

This is in the "Shivans" entry in the "Intelligence" section of the FS2 technical database. I've paraphrased it some, but you can look it up yourselves.

Hope this helps, Ascraeus.

------------------
FRED Zone's ("http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/fredzone/home.shtml") Grammar editor/ FS history moderator
Former member of TCA
Member in good standing of 99th Skulls
Honorary member of TCS and UGC

"I created your civilization...now I will destroy it!"
--Ra, the Sun God


[This message has been edited by Su-tehp (edited 11-17-2001).]
Title: FS3?
Post by: Nico on November 17, 2001, 12:23:00 pm
 
Quote
Originally posted by Su-tehp:
 There's a theory in the FS2 database saying that Shivan psychology is probably similar to an ant or insect colony. If I remember correctly, it was called the "hive mind" theory. Basically, a group of Shivans can only function when there is a central leader giving orders; once that leader has been eliminated, the rest of the group begins to break down and cannot coordinate their actions. This was evidenced by the behavior of the Shivans during the First Great War after the SD Lucifer was destroyed. After the Lucifer was destroyed, the Shivans couldn't coordinate their fleet effectively and the GTA and PVN were able to separate, corner and eventually destroy the Lucifer fleet over the course of several months.

This is in the "Shivans" entry in the "Intelligence" section of the FS2 technical database. I've paraphrased it some, but you can look it up yourselves.

Hope this helps, Ascraeus.


yes, that's what's wrotten, but don't assume it's true. remember, it's a possiblilty thought off by the GTVA scientists, and not a proof.
Title: FS3?
Post by: Su-tehp on November 17, 2001, 02:44:00 pm
 
Quote
Originally posted by venom2506:
yes, that's what's written, but don't assume it's true. remember, it's a possiblilty thought off by the GTVA scientists, and not a proof.

True.



------------------
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"I created your civilization...now I will destroy it!"
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Title: FS3?
Post by: Sandwich on November 17, 2001, 04:09:00 pm
 
Quote
Originally posted by Su-tehp:
True.
Noooo.... possibly true.  (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)  (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif)  (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/tongue.gif)  (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/lol.gif)


------------------
America, stand assured that Israel truly understands what you are going through.

"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar ("http://www.geocities.com/sandvich/index.html"), the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)
Title: FS3?
Post by: Su-tehp on November 17, 2001, 05:22:00 pm
 
Quote
Originally posted by sandwich:
Quote
Originally posted by Su-tehp:
True.
Noooo.... possibly true.   (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)   (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif)   (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/tongue.gif)   (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/lol.gif)[/B]

LOL!

------------------
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Former member of TCA
Member in good standing of 99th Skulls
Honorary member of TCS and UGC

"I created your civilization...now I will destroy it!"
--Ra, the Sun God
Title: FS3?
Post by: YodaSean on November 17, 2001, 09:04:00 pm
Who cares about FS3?  I want to see FRED4!!!  (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
Title: FS3?
Post by: joek on November 19, 2001, 09:16:00 am
 
Quote
Originally posted by venom2506:
yes, that's what's wrotten, but don't assume it's true. remember, it's a possiblilty thought off by the GTVA scientists, and not a proof.

Yeah. And I (as some others I'm sure) am not very fond of the "hive mind" theory for the Shivans, as it would then group them in with the Borg, and we really hope that Volition would have been able to come up with a better alien speices then just another Borg-remake.

1) I think you can associate the disorganization after the Lucifer died to a couple of things, one of which is the "holy &%#$" mentality:

The Shivans are overconfident. They defeated the vast Ancients empire. Surely they figured mowing over these Terrans and Vasudans would be a piece of cake (it was for pounding the Vasudan homeworld). So, when we actually managed to destroy the Lucifer, all of the remaining Shivans (in our space) were stunned screaming such things as "holy *[email protected]#", "wtf!", etc. They were stunned, they did lose their command (and you can probably find many instances in our non-hive mind, human military history where armies became disorganized when they were in enemy land and they lost their command and the remaining forces argued with each other over what to do next).

So I don't think that you exactly need a "hive mind" theory to explain the disorganization after the Lucifer died.

2) You could consider them telepathic, or mentally linked via technology. Where as thinking this would make them "hive mind" as the Borg, it could also not. In "The Light of Other Days" (by Arthur C. Clarke & Stephen Baxter) and the "Forever..." series by Joe Haldeman ("Forever War", "Forever Peace", and "Forever Free"), the authors deal with the idea of people linking their minds together through technology. In both "The Light of Other Days" and "Forever Peace" people retain their individuality, but the mental link can provide them with like an Internet built into their minds. They can talk and discuss ideas with other people in fractions of a second. They can share memories and feelings of other people, while still having their own and their own individuality. In "Forever War" and "Forever Free", the linking of minds got rid of individuality, but it created a single mind, a single "Man" instead of a hive mind consisting of a queen and drones. In this scenario each "Man" is a single consciousness which shares many individual bodies. Either of these two scenarios use mind-links without being the typical Borg "hive mind".

3) As stated, what's in the techroom is just what the GTVA thinks about the Shivans. Where as the GTVA sees something like a hive mind, the true nature of how Shivans communicate with each other could be way beyond our understanding. Maybe they communicate via subspace the same way we communicate via sound. It's been stated that the Shivans have a sensitivity to subspace. Maybe they hear ships passing through subspace the way we hear planes passing through the air (or cars on the street, etc). Or maybe they communicate via subspace not like we do via sound, but like dolphins and whales do as sonar. Maybe they communicate like this, but they need a devise to pull their communications out of subspace into our space (freespace). Maybe that is what the Shivan Comm Nodes are, transmitting communications from subspace into freespace so all the Shivan ships can coordinate. And maybe the Lucifer carried such equipment aboard it, so that when it was destroyed, all the Shivans in GTA & PVA space lost communication with the rest of their species and became lost and disorganized. I know that they techroom says that "Shivan communication seems to occur in the electromagnetic spectrum" but that may just be them using the em spectrum like we use it: radio, TV, cellphones, etc.

But, as you can see from my rambling thinking  (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif), there are lots of ideas you can get about the Shivans based on what we know and do not know.

Joe.

------------------
 (http://www.joek.com/cgi-local/fs2rev_image.pl)  ("http://www.joek.com/other/freespace/")
Title: FS3?
Post by: Su-tehp on November 19, 2001, 10:12:00 am
Damn, Joe, you certainly put a lot of thought into this. Your ideas have great merit.

------------------
FRED Zone's ("http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/fredzone/home.shtml") Grammar editor/ FS history moderator
Former member of TCA
Member in good standing of 99th Skulls
Honorary member of TCS and UGC

"I created your civilization...now I will destroy it!"
--Ra, the Sun God
Title: FS3?
Post by: Star-Epock on November 19, 2001, 10:38:00 am
Joe is spot on methinks.

Maybe the Shivan Com Nodes are a from of signal booster for the subspace communications.

Could there destuction be linked to the destruction of Capella?

Ahh but its a loop mission, so no....

[This message has been edited by Star-Epock (edited 11-19-2001).]
Title: FS3?
Post by: Nico on November 19, 2001, 11:20:00 am
My time to expose my thoughts  (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
two things, actually. First, I like to think of shivans like ants. Don't scream joek!!!
People usually misunderstand how they're "working". Ants are not exactlly exemples of a true hive minds, unlike bees. They will surely serve the hive first, but they DO have consciousness of themselves. They communicate, and are actually able to act agaisnt the will of other ants of the same hive if they don't "agree" with the trend(can't find better term, sorry- an good exmple is rebelions in ant hives, things that really happen). I think shivans are millions of creatures whose only purpose is to serve the shivan species as a whole, but I think they have, also individual thoughts in their own way, which is quite different.
for the fact that shivans were disorganized after the lucifer was destroyed... well, I have no proof of that, but I like to think that it's not true. Some kind of GTVA propagnda if you want. I imagine a "shadow war", where the GTVA tries to eliminate shivans that are not disorganized at all (I'm not sure, but I don't remember the shivans in silent threat as a disorganized threat...). Shivans were weakened, harmed, their fleet spread throuhout GTVA space because of the rush of the lucifer toward sol, which left capships to guard nodes. Of course, in a way or another, the shivan "felt" that the outcome of the incursion was disastrous for them, and that weakened them. But I don't think they turned into mindless creatures, not able to survive on their own. I'm pretty sure they fought hard and brought as many GTVA ships as possible in the tomb.
The PVD and the GTA knew they had won the war, but the result was, after all, catastrophic. In a war they never expected, they lost two homeworlds, the largest part of their fleets, and moral was probably very low throught the populations. If you were a leader of some government, and your country just won a very difficult war, will you scream everywhere that there's still a lot of shivans everywhere, when nobody will be able to check? You need to boost the economy, you need people to be happy so they rebuild stuff. If they learn that they are still threatened by the shivans, do you think this will happen? There's no advantage for the PVD or the GTA to tell the truth.
That's what I think.
Title: FS3?
Post by: Su-tehp on November 19, 2001, 03:07:00 pm
 
Quote
Originally posted by venom2506:
for the fact that shivans were disorganized after the lucifer was destroyed... well, I have no proof of that, but I like to think that it's not true. Some kind of GTVA propagnda if you want. I imagine a "shadow war", where the GTVA tries to eliminate shivans that are not disorganized at all (I'm not sure, but I don't remember the shivans in silent threat as a disorganized threat...). Shivans were weakened, harmed, their fleet spread throuhout GTVA space because of the rush of the lucifer toward sol, which left capships to guard nodes. Of course, in a way or another, the shivan "felt" that the outcome of the incursion was disastrous for them, and that weakened them. But I don't think they turned into mindless creatures, not able to survive on their own. I'm pretty sure they fought hard and brought as many GTVA ships as possible in the tomb.
The PVD and the GTA knew they had won the war, but the result was, after all, catastrophic. In a war they never expected, they lost two homeworlds, the largest part of their fleets, and moral was probably very low throught the populations. If you were a leader of some government, and your country just won a very difficult war, will you scream everywhere that there's still a lot of shivans everywhere, when nobody will be able to check? You need to boost the economy, you need people to be happy so they rebuild stuff. If they learn that they are still threatened by the shivans, do you think this will happen? There's no advantage for the PVD or the GTA to tell the truth.
That's what I think.

Me, I like to think of the end of the Great War as being similar to the war on terrorism today. (Don't flame me, I'm headed somewhere with this.  (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif) ) The destruction of the SD Lucifer wasn't the end of the war, it was merely the turning point (I think all of us gathered that). But I've noticed some paralells between the Great War in FS and the war on terrorism today. Before Mazar-i-sharif fell, the war seemed to be going badly. We kept hearing that the Taliban wasn't going to budge and that we would have to hunmer down for a long, bloody ground war if we wanted to dislodge the Taliban and the terrorists. Great War parallel: long hopeless fight against the Shivans, a seemly unstoppable fleet.

Then the Northern Alliance advanced and took more than half of Afganistan where only a few days before they had only 10% of the land. Great War parallel: the destruction of the Lucifer. This is the turning point of both wars.

Nowadays, the war on terrorism is by no means over, but we have the Taliban and the terrorists on the run. Great War parallel: the Shivans in Silent Threat (incapable of great coordination, but still highly dangerous).

I'm not really convinced of the "shadow war" theory. Considering how many people were displaced (refugees and such in many of the systems the Shivans had entered), waging a secret war on the Shivans seems unlikely. You can't tell a bunch of refugees who have fled their homes that the war was won if they can't go back home. (Refugees from Vasuda Prime would be the exception that proves the rule.) Declaring victory to these people would ring hollow and damage your credibility. If you keep saying "We won, everything's fine" when you so clearly HAVEN'T won, then no one will believe anything you say. With Shivan ships still in control of jump nodes, interstellar commerce would still be disrupted, no goods would travel between systems and the interstellar economy would still be weak despite any propaganda trying to revive the economy.

If you keep saying, "Yeah, we defeated the Shivans, the war is over" and then a Demon-class destroyer shows up and kills a refugee convoy, this would expose the "shadow war" as a complete fraud.

------------------
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Former member of TCA
Member in good standing of 99th Skulls
Honorary member of TCS and UGC

"I created your civilization...now I will destroy it!"
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Title: FS3?
Post by: Su-tehp on November 20, 2001, 01:04:00 am
Ascraeus and Tim, I think that Alpha 1/the player's personal logs maybe shouldn't refer to a 20-year military career at the start of the game. It should be 6 or 7 years tops, for two reasons. It's simple mathmatics and also something else.

The outline you posted on your website refers to Alpha 1/the player being born during the Great War. Then he would be 32 years old during the events of FS2. (he would have been 30 or 31, if he was drafted into the GTVA military to fight the NTF.)

Six years later, (when FS2.9 occurs), you have Alpha 1/the player refering to being in the GTVA military for 20-odd years. If that is the case, then Alpha 1/the player would have to have joined the military at age 18, in the year 2353. But this seems unlikely because the personal log that you wrote says that Alpha 1/ the player originally wanted to be an artist. It seems unlikely that he would have joined the military unless he was drafted. (In 2353, were there any reasons to impose a draft? The NTF Rebellion wouldn't start for another 13 years.)

BUT if Alpha 1/the player in FS2.9 is the same person in FS2, then the ages would be different, because the Alpha 1/the player in FS2 was only an ensign at the start of FS2 in the year 2367. If he's an ensign, then he would be 22 years old, tops. (I know that Alpha 1/the player in FS2 starts out as an ensign because the first Command briefing starts out with the phrase "Welcome to Vega, Ensign..." The Alpha 1/the player in FS2 does become the squad leader of the 70th Blue Lions at the end of FS2. Your FS2.9 outline has Alpha 1/the player also start out as the squad leader of the 70th Blue Lions.

Reason number Two is if your Alpha 1/the player has been in the GTVA military for 20+ years, then it seems to me far more likely that he'd be driving a desk rather than a starfighter... (But this is a rebuttable presumption.)

My question is this: are Alpha 1/the player in FS2 and FS2.9 the same person? If they are, then the above inconsistencies need to be addressed. If not, then maybe that has to be pointed out somewhere in your story...

Just my two cents.

Let me know whay you think.

------------------
FRED Zone's ("http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/fredzone/home.shtml") Grammar editor/ FS history moderator
Former member of TCA
Member in good standing of 99th Skulls
Honorary member of TCS and UGC

"I created your civilization...now I will destroy it!"
--Ra, the Sun God


[This message has been edited by Su-tehp (edited 11-19-2001).]
Title: FS3?
Post by: Shrike on November 20, 2001, 01:08:00 am
 
Quote
Originally posted by Su-tehp:
Reason number Two is if your Alpha 1/the player has been in the GTVA military for 20+ years, then it seems to me far more likely that he'd be driving a desk rather than a starfighter... (But this is a rebuttable presumption.)

Or driving a Destroyer.  If the GTVA is anything like modern navies, you can't reach CO of a carrier unless you've been a pilot.  The Marine assault ships are the largest ships you can captain if you weren't a pilot.
Title: FS3?
Post by: Nico on November 20, 2001, 05:20:00 am
 
Quote
Originally posted by Su-tehp:
Me, I like to think of the end of the Great War as being similar to the war on terrorism today. (Don't flame me, I'm headed somewhere with this.   (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif) ) The destruction of the SD Lucifer wasn't the end of the war, it was merely the turning point (I think all of us gathered that). But I've noticed some paralells between the Great War in FS and the war on terrorism today. Before Mazar-i-sharif fell, the war seemed to be going badly. We kept hearing that the Taliban wasn't going to budge and that we would have to hunmer down for a long, bloody ground war if we wanted to dislodge the Taliban and the terrorists. Great War parallel: long hopeless fight against the Shivans, a seemly unstoppable fleet.

Then the Northern Alliance advanced and took more than half of Afganistan where only a few days before they had only 10% of the land. Great War parallel: the destruction of the Lucifer. This is the turning point of both wars.

Nowadays, the war on terrorism is by no means over, but we have the Taliban and the terrorists on the run. Great War parallel: the Shivans in Silent Threat (incapable of great coordination, but still highly dangerous).

I'm not really convinced of the "shadow war" theory. Considering how many people were displaced (refugees and such in many of the systems the Shivans had entered), waging a secret war on the Shivans seems unlikely. You can't tell a bunch of refugees who have fled their homes that the war was won if they can't go back home. (Refugees from Vasuda Prime would be the exception that proves the rule.) Declaring victory to these people would ring hollow and damage your credibility. If you keep saying "We won, everything's fine" when you so clearly HAVEN'T won, then no one will believe anything you say. With Shivan ships still in control of jump nodes, interstellar commerce would still be disrupted, no goods would travel between systems and the interstellar economy would still be weak despite any propaganda trying to revive the economy.

If you keep saying, "Yeah, we defeated the Shivans, the war is over" and then a Demon-class destroyer shows up and kills a refugee convoy, this would expose the "shadow war" as a complete fraud.


The only flaw in your answer is that it probably happened (demons showing etc). There's a lot of shivan ships everywhere, that was sure. And they probably attacked everything they could. I highly doubt they just diappeared, gather in one shadow corner of the galaxy and waited for the GTA fleets to finish them. So the "disorganized shivan" story. The GTA won't hide the fact that shivans are still there, coz it's obvious they are, and rtefugees probably saw them.
But the GTA will say that they're disoragnized, so people will think "ok, there's still many shivans around, but they'll be easily crushed". That's my idea, the GTA hiding the fact that shivans were not that easy to "clean", and that they were in no means disorganized.
Title: FS3?
Post by: TDM/JM on November 20, 2001, 08:20:00 am
 
Quote
Originally posted by Su-tehp:
Ascraeus and Tim, I think that Alpha 1/the player's personal logs maybe shouldn't refer to a 20-year military career at the start of the game. It should be 6 or 7 years tops, for two reasons. It's simple mathmatics and also something else.

Etc.

The material on the site consists of different (and the most complete) versions from the opening of the BEL campaign. E.g., there's a version of the second mission (Sathanas defection) in which a Shivan juggernaut actually did not defect - "something" else did. You're correct in pointing out some of the inconsistencies, but that's simply because you're looking at the early alpha version.

Let's get a bit looser -- the idea is to have the PLAYER's character be a veteran of the Gamma Draconis campaign and some of the civil actions since then. He/she is early-to-mid thirties, a squadron commander, with an excellent record and a great deal of respect. Promotion is coming, obviously, but until the reflexes fade, the best place for this person is in the field. Part of the drama comes from this person questioning whether humans/Vasudans can actually survive a galactic sector dominated by Shivans, which is another way of asking "Is my life worthwhile?" You do get to the point where you ask those questions, sometime in your thirties or forties, at least.

The other point of having this character be a decorated vet with command responsibilities is to give him/her the opportunity to be "inside" the senior command briefings for the task force. What I'd envisioned was not only playing the game, but solving the mystery.

Still, I very much appreciate the suggestions, and any opinions/comments on the above would be very helpful. Thanks!

Ascraeus

Title: FS3?
Post by: Sandwich on November 20, 2001, 09:50:00 am
 
Quote
Originally posted by TDM/JM:
The other point of having this character be a decorated vet with command responsibilities is to give him/her the opportunity to be "inside" the senior command briefings for the task force. What I'd envisioned was not only playing the game, but solving the mystery.


Towards the end of FS2, when the player is (I think) given command of the 70th, the command briefs noticably change to a more strategic tone, ie. ship and squadron movements, etc.


------------------
America, stand assured that Israel truly understands what you are going through.

"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar ("http://www.geocities.com/sandvich/index.html"), the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)
Title: FS3?
Post by: joek on November 20, 2001, 10:49:00 am
 
Quote
Originally posted by TDM/JM:
...the idea is to have the PLAYER's character be a veteran of the Gamma Draconis campaign and some of the civil actions since then...

I like this idea as it works so well for a fan-based campaign. When you finish the main FS2 campaign, you load this one, and play with your same pilot, carrying over the same rank and medals, etc (although then there would be no room for new medals).

But also, maybe for people who (heaven forbid) didn't finish the FS2 campaign, or they've uninstalled the game and recently reinstalled... are you thinking of, or would it work?, to have, along with all the .tbls and missions to be installed for the campaign, to have a pre-set pilot data. So that if someone doesn't have a pilot who's finished FS2, they won't start this campaign as an ensign while the story is saying that their an Admiral or something.

Joe.

------------------
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Title: FS3?
Post by: Su-tehp on November 20, 2001, 06:02:00 pm
 
Quote
Originally posted by TDM/JM:
You're correct in pointing out some of the inconsistencies, but that's simply because you're looking at the early alpha version.

This makes sense, but, hey, I gotta start somewhere!  (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)

 
Quote
Originally posted by TDM/JM:
Let's get a bit looser -- the idea is to have the PLAYER's character be a veteran of the Gamma Draconis campaign and some of the civil actions since then. He/she is early-to-mid thirties, a squadron commander, with an excellent record and a great deal of respect. Promotion is coming, obviously, but until the reflexes fade, the best place for this person is in the field.

Kinda like Wing Commander, or the final missions of FS2. Yah, this would make sense and would give the players of the FS games a new perspective. This is good.

 
Quote
Originally posted by TDM/JM:
Part of the drama comes from this person questioning whether humans/Vasudans can actually survive a galactic sector dominated by Shivans, which is another way of asking "Is my life worthwhile?"

With this story happening only 6 years after the NTF Rebellion, this is a good question to explore.

 
Quote
Originally posted by TDM/JM:
You do get to the point where you ask those questions, sometime in your thirties or forties, at least.

I wouldn't know. I'm only 29!  (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif) (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif) (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)

 
Quote
Originally posted by TDM/JM:
The other point of having this character be a decorated vet with command responsibilities is to give him/her the opportunity to be "inside" the senior command briefings for the task force. What I'd envisioned was not only playing the game, but solving the mystery.

Still, I very much appreciate the suggestions, and any opinions/comments on the above would be very helpful. Thanks!

Ascraeus

Yeah, people have played the role of the young, out-of-the-loop pilot long enough. Being a squad commander in an FS game would be a nice change of pace.

As for providing comments and suggestions, I'll be happy to continue doing so.  (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)

------------------
FRED Zone's ("http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/fredzone/home.shtml") Grammar editor/ FS history moderator
Former member of TCA
Member in good standing of 99th Skulls
Honorary member of TCS and UGC

"I created your civilization...now I will destroy it!"
--Ra, the Sun God
Title: FS3?
Post by: Shrike on November 20, 2001, 07:24:00 pm
 
Quote
Originally posted by TDM/JM:
Part of the drama comes from this person questioning whether humans/Vasudans can actually survive a galactic sector dominated by Shivans, which is another way of asking "Is my life worthwhile?"

Of course, because if you're having those thoughts, you'd better turn in your wings ASAP, because there are a lot of people back home depending on your to keep them safe.  Either fight or get out of the way of those who'll fight.
Title: FS3?
Post by: LAW ENFORCER on November 20, 2001, 07:33:00 pm
IDEAS!???!!!
shut up and get back to work, drones!
 (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
Title: FS3?
Post by: TDM/JM on November 20, 2001, 07:33:00 pm
Everybody in war asks questions like that, especially senior and mid-level combat officers. They're not much good if they don't -- it shows they don't have the personal depth to lead people into harm's way. Trust me on that one. I know whereof I speak.

Ascraeus
Title: FS3?
Post by: Shrike on November 20, 2001, 07:43:00 pm
If you're a fighter pilot, you'd definately keep that to the bunk though.  Because you are, like it or not, in harms way for a reason, and you had better be able to hack it.
Title: FS3?
Post by: jonskowitz on November 21, 2001, 10:28:00 am
Hey Shrike,  (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/tongue.gif)

I think most people who have gone into harm's way (for good reason or not) have similar thoughts.  But you're mostly right, they try to keep it to themselves (or at least among their peers).
Title: FS3?
Post by: Shrike on November 21, 2001, 10:54:00 am
The thing is, you're not facing some kid who was sent to kindergarden by their parents, who's got a girlfriend back home, who's got a little child.  You are facing a five-legged bug with incomprehensible thought processes which in all evidence is out to completely and totally annihilate your species, no quarter.  You cannot find common ground with the Shivans, at least not as far as the FS2 story has progressed.  There is only kill or be killed, nothing else.

------------------
-Knife missiles have a way of cutting to the heart of an argument.

Shall we import Lard or Steel?
Would you rather have Butter or Guns?
Guns makes us strong, Butter merely makes us fat.
Title: FS3?
Post by: Unidan on November 24, 2001, 08:11:00 pm
 
Quote
Originally posted by Shrike:
There is only kill or be killed, nothing else.

They are what they are, nothing more. There is nothing to explain because there is nothing to be explained.



------------------
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Title: FS3?
Post by: karajorma on November 24, 2001, 08:50:00 pm
But what if that isn`t what the shivans are up to?

In Enders Game the buggers killed large numbers of humans because they were a hive mind and didn`t understand that they were killing individuals. They saw kidnapping and disecting a few live humans the same way a human scientist would see taking a cell culture.

In B5 the shadows appear to be trying to wipe out all other life forms until halfway through you find out that their goal is to promote evolution through survival of the fittest.

Alien creatures can have completely alien motives for what they are doing. Even if they do have human motives though that doesn`t mean that they are genocidal as a species trait. What if the shivans currently have a Hitler style leader? The average shivan might not particularly want to wipe out humans.
 What if the capellan supernova was something like turning Jupiter into a star in 2010?
 Since we know next to nothing about the shivans so it's hard to say why they do what they do.
Title: FS3?
Post by: Sandwich on November 26, 2001, 10:12:00 am
 
Quote
Originally posted by karajorma:
What if the capellan supernova was something like turning Jupiter into a star in 2010?

Huh?  (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/confused.gif)



------------------
America, stand assured that Israel truly understands what you are going through.

"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
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Title: FS3?
Post by: karajorma on November 26, 2001, 11:41:00 am
In the movie 2010 (Sequal to 2001) Jupiter gets turned into a star because a higher power believes that humanity needed it to happen for their further development (I think that was the reason. It's been a long time since I saw that movie)
Title: FS3?
Post by: aldo_14 on November 26, 2001, 12:11:00 pm
 
Quote
Originally posted by karajorma:
In the movie 2010 (Sequal to 2001) Jupiter gets turned into a star because a higher power believes that humanity needed it to happen for their further development (I think that was the reason. It's been a long time since I saw that movie)

It was as a result of an impending war between the US and USSR, and they granted humans the moons around Europa  - except the Ice one (Europa?).
Title: FS3?
Post by: Su-tehp on November 26, 2001, 01:21:00 pm
The alien superbeing that created the monolith (Dave Bowman "met" it when he was taken "inside" the monolith at the end of 2001) turned Jupiter into a star in order to feed the chlorophyl that had been seeded on Europa. Apparently, this superbeing put chrolophyl on Europa because it saw that Europa had the potential to create intelligent/sentient life eons from now. Turning Jupiter into a star would speed up the process.

"Detonating" Jupiter was for this express purpose: creating new intelligent life on Europa. Using it as a demonstration of power to the USA and the USSR was merely incidental, but still accomplished a secondary goal: keeping humanity (another sentient race that the superbeing also "uplifted" alive. (Remember how the first monolith uplifted those apes at the start of 2001 and also uplifted those astronauts who discovered the monolith on the moon midway through 2001? The Discovery (Dave Bowman's spaceship)was built by those same astronauts 18 months later...)

------------------
FRED Zone's ("http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/fredzone/home.shtml") Grammar editor/ FS history moderator
Former member of TCA
Member in good standing of 99th Skulls
Honorary member of TCS and UGC

"I created your civilization...now I will destroy it!"
--Ra, the Sun God
Title: FS3?
Post by: karajorma on November 27, 2001, 09:28:00 am
Kinda proves my point though. Alien races can do destructive things for reasons that are much more benign than at first seen.
 It's wrong to assume that the shivans are just xenophobes out to destroy us just on the basis of their actions. It may be true but then again it may not. Bosch noticed that there was a way to communicate with them and even believed that it was possible to make an allience with them. Maybe he was wrong but then again maybe he was right.
Title: FS3?
Post by: Nico on November 27, 2001, 09:38:00 am
 
Quote
Originally posted by karajorma:
wrong to assume that the shivans are just xenophobes out to destroy us just on the basis of their actions.

Isn't the fact that they toasted Vasuda Prime and were about to do the same with earth, ignoring any other objective, isn't enough for you?
They're at least vasudaphobes and terraphobes  (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/tongue.gif)
Title: FS3?
Post by: karajorma on November 28, 2001, 04:33:00 am
Nope. It isn`t enough. The US nuked japan during the second world war but they weren`t japanaphobes were they?
  After the war we made peace with Japan and they ended up being one of the wests biggest allies.
 If the shivans are xenophobes there would never be any hope of anything apart from war with them. If however they mearly have different goals and motives there is that possibility.
 Considering that the campaign we are discussing her involves shivan defectors we`ve got proof that not all shivans are xenophobes
Title: FS3?
Post by: Nico on November 28, 2001, 07:44:00 am
 
Quote
Originally posted by karajorma:
Nope. It isn`t enough. The US nuked japan during the second world war but they weren`t japanaphobes were they?
  After the war we made peace with Japan and they ended up being one of the wests biggest allies.
 If the shivans are xenophobes there would never be any hope of anything apart from war with them. If however they mearly have different goals and motives there is that possibility.
 Considering that the campaign we are discussing her involves shivan defectors we`ve got proof that not all shivans are xenophobes

excuse me, but did the japanes were standing there, and then the US came to nuke them, just like did the shivans? No, the japanese attacked first, and before they used theit bombs, there was some years of war I believe...
shivan defectors doesn't prove that not all shivans are xenophobes. just that they don't share the same goals.
Don't understand me wrong, I don't think shivans are xenophobes, that they kill everything they meet (you'll now what I think in my campaign). No. But the fact is that the statements said above don't prove anything, and are not flawless  (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/frown.gif)
Title: FS3?
Post by: karajorma on November 28, 2001, 06:05:00 pm
Who says the shivans started it? We know that GTI had already met the shivans before they are introduced in FS1.
 Even if they did start it the shivans might not have been involved in a xenophobic attack. In both the attack on ross 128 and the first campign mission the shivans appear in the Humans are fighting vasudan forces. The shivans could believe themselves some kind of interstellar police force, exterminating any trouble makers (remember that the ancients were also subduing other races around them and then tried it on against the shivans before they got their butts kicked)
 My point about america VS japan was that to an outside observer who didn`t know why the war started it might look like xenophobia especially once nukes started being dropped. but WWII wasn`t about that and the shivan wars might not either.
Title: FS3?
Post by: Nico on November 28, 2001, 06:42:00 pm
 
Quote
Originally posted by karajorma:
Who says the shivans started it? We know that GTI had already met the shivans before they are introduced in FS1.
 Even if they did start it the shivans might not have been involved in a xenophobic attack. In both the attack on ross 128 and the first campign mission the shivans appear in the Humans are fighting vasudan forces. The shivans could believe themselves some kind of interstellar police force, exterminating any trouble makers (remember that the ancients were also subduing other races around them and then tried it on against the shivans before they got their butts kicked)
 My point about america VS japan was that to an outside observer who didn`t know why the war started it might look like xenophobia especially once nukes started being dropped. but WWII wasn`t about that and the shivan wars might not either.

mmh, only flaw there: the police defends those who are attacked, the shivan attacked the terrans, but they also annihilated the vasudans...
I see only one reason why they would do that then, but I'll keep it for myself  (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif)
Title: FS3?
Post by: karajorma on November 29, 2001, 06:32:00 am
The vasudans were fighting the terrans. So the shivans kill them both.
 If you notice it isn`t just the ancients who have vanished. All the races they subdued are also missing.
Title: FS3?
Post by: Nico on November 29, 2001, 10:25:00 am
 
Quote
Originally posted by karajorma:
The vasudans were fighting the terrans. So the shivans kill them both.
 If you notice it isn`t just the ancients who have vanished. All the races they subdued are also missing.

of course, the ancient didn't subdue them, they killed them ( it's said in the FS1 cutscenes). Anyway, I doubt the ancient empire was limited to the known GTVA space, so who knows what we could find after the boundaries of this known space?  (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
Title: FS3?
Post by: Setekh on December 01, 2001, 01:51:00 am
 
Quote
Originally posted by karajorma:
In the movie 2010 (Sequal to 2001)

There's a sequel to 2001? Man, I gotta stay awake...  (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/icons/icon4.gif)
Title: FS3?
Post by: karajorma on December 01, 2001, 06:22:00 am
I'm working along the lines that the shivans aren't mindless destroyers in my campaign. I`m not going to do an "Explaination for everything" type of campaign but I`ve got ideas that hint at an explaination for capella's destruction and what the shivans were upto during the Great War.
Title: FS3?
Post by: Nico on December 01, 2001, 08:15:00 am
 
Quote
Originally posted by karajorma:
I'm working along the lines that the shivans aren't mindless destroyers in my campaign. I`m not going to do an "Explaination for everything" type of campaign but I`ve got ideas that hint at an explaination for capella's destruction and what the shivans were upto during the Great War.

me too  (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif) and don't worry, shivans won't be mindless blood-thirsty creatures (tho they have about nothing in common with terrans or vasudans in any way).
Title: FS3?
Post by: Su-tehp on December 01, 2001, 12:21:00 pm
 
Quote
Originally posted by Setekh:
There's a sequel to 2001? Man, I gotta stay awake...   (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/icons/icon4.gif)  

 (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/lol.gif)
Title: FS3?
Post by: karajorma on December 01, 2001, 12:58:00 pm
The funny thing is that in FS2 the shivans are pretty mindless. I did think that maybe they were a species of much lower intelligence than humans who had somehow managed to get a leg up on the technological front. Then I played FS1. In that the shivans showed good knowledge of tactics that they didn`t show in the sequal. I guess their best general was on board the lucifer.

 
Title: FS3?
Post by: Nico on December 01, 2001, 01:17:00 pm
 
Quote
Originally posted by karajorma:
The funny thing is that in FS2 the shivans are pretty mindless. I did think that maybe they were a species of much lower intelligence than humans who had somehow managed to get a leg up on the technological front. Then I played FS1. In that the shivans showed good knowledge of tactics that they didn`t show in the sequal. I guess their best general was on board the lucifer.

 

well, I rather think that somehow the shivan were in a hurry in FS2, and didn't really wan to waste their time for terrans. In FS1, they had really limited resources: one lucifer, two or three demons, and that's about all. In FS2, they had much more resources. What's a ravana next to a sathanas fleet? I think shivans have no proble to use expandable troups when they need to, and, well, their goal was Capella, not the GTVA, so they completly suceeded in their task, and if you notice, the GTVA lost more ships than the shivans, in FS2. A juggernaught, a few destroyers and tha's all. The GVA lost at least as many vessels, and had much less available than the shivies, so...
Title: FS3?
Post by: karajorma on December 01, 2001, 04:57:00 pm
Still it says something about shivan society when the pilots of their ships are willing to die simply chucking themselves at the enemy dispite having numerical and technological superiority.
 I`ve just had a thought. What if the shivans were in a hurry cause they were scared of us?
 At the start of the last war humans couldn`t even touch Shivan fighters. By the end we had shields, weapons that could take their shields down our capships were reaching the point where with bombers we could take down theirs and we managed to take out the shivan superdestroyer.
 What if the hurry to take out humanity was cause they were scared that if the war took too long the GTVA might have managed to make it a level playing field?  
Title: FS3?
Post by: Nico on December 01, 2001, 05:18:00 pm
 
Quote
Originally posted by karajorma:
Still it says something about shivan society when the pilots of their ships are willing to die simply chucking themselves at the enemy dispite having numerical and technological superiority.
 I`ve just had a thought. What if the shivans were in a hurry cause they were scared of us?
 At the start of the last war humans couldn`t even touch Shivan fighters. By the end we had shields, weapons that could take their shields down our capships were reaching the point where with bombers we could take down theirs and we managed to take out the shivan superdestroyer.
 What if the hurry to take out humanity was cause they were scared that if the war took too long the GTVA might have managed to make it a level playing field?  

I don't think so. Did you look and them in FS2 and said: woah, they're scared? They didn't seem scared to me. I think they didn't even pay attention to us. If they were afraid of us, the 80 sathanas would have made a little journey, would have cleaned all the GTVA systems, the GTVA fleet could have done nothing against that, et voila, the shivans would have got rid of us w/o any pb.
Title: FS3?
Post by: diamondgeezer on December 02, 2001, 06:07:00 am
And in FS3 we'd find the remenants of the GTVA wandering the galazy in the few surviving destroyers, constatnly on the run... hmmm... the words 'campaign' and 'idea' have just infiltrated my brain...
Title: FS3?
Post by: aldo_14 on December 02, 2001, 08:27:00 am
 
Quote
Originally posted by venom2506:
well, I rather think that somehow the shivan were in a hurry in FS2, and didn't really wan to waste their time for terrans. In FS1, they had really limited resources: one lucifer, two or three demons, and that's about all. In FS2, they had much more resources. What's a ravana next to a sathanas fleet? I think shivans have no proble to use expandable troups when they need to, and, well, their goal was Capella, not the GTVA, so they completly suceeded in their task, and if you notice, the GTVA lost more ships than the shivans, in FS2. A juggernaught, a few destroyers and tha's all. The GVA lost at least as many vessels, and had much less available than the shivies, so...

Of course, maybe you're making a mistake in thinking that the FS1 and FS2 forces were seperate fleets... maybe the FS1 ships were the first elements of a far larger fleet sweeping through the galaxy, and the FS2 fleet was simply a slightly further back component of that - the very first full wave of ships, held up by the Knossos or another threat.
Title: FS3?
Post by: Nico on December 02, 2001, 08:53:00 am
 
Quote
Originally posted by aldo_14:
Of course, maybe you're making a mistake in thinking that the FS1 and FS2 forces were seperate fleets... maybe the FS1 ships were the first elements of a far larger fleet sweeping through the galaxy, and the FS2 fleet was simply a slightly further back component of that - the very first full wave of ships, held up by the Knossos or another threat.

I am confident they were completly unlinked.
first, if th fs2 fleet was the second wave, they would be damn late lol. Then their motives and the way they moved was obviously different. There's no common scheme between the fs1 and the fs2 shivans.
Title: FS3?
Post by: Setekh on December 03, 2001, 02:31:00 am
 
Quote
Originally posted by venom2506:
Then their motives and the way they moved was obviously different. There's no common scheme between the fs1 and the fs2 shivans.

The motives and the way they moved could be attributed to a difference in leadership - can Shivans have personality? Do they have leaders? Or are we still clinging to the hive mind theory? We must question everything.
Title: FS3?
Post by: karajorma on December 03, 2001, 03:59:00 am
I didn`t mean that the shivans were scared of us in that they were quaking in their boots.
 I meant that they thought that the GTVA was a small threat now but could become a big threat if not squashed quickly.
 Sort of like the way you squash a breeding pair of cockroaches quickly cause you`re scared that you`ll be dealing with thousends if you don't
Title: FS3?
Post by: joek on December 03, 2001, 08:23:00 am
Yes. I too think that the Shivans had different priorities between FS1 & FS2.

And, while I'm figuring that the Shivans are afraid of us (not just us Terrans and Vasudans, but all gravity-based life who learn to use subspace because of the threat we pose to them by entering their realm), but I just now thought of something else for why they (or how they can) send so many to die to stop us... what if they're clones?

And now I'm not going into any silly "attack of the clones" thinking here. But what I'm thinking is that, even if Shivans are individuals, what we're fighting are the clones of individuals. You're a well-trained Shivan fighter pilot, but instead of you going out to face the enemy, you clone yourself (along with your memories and personality), and send those clones off to do battle. If they die, no problem, you just clone yourself some more. If they don't die and return, you take in those new memories and experiences to improve your skills.

But then I just thought up of this idea just now.

Joe.

------------------
 (http://www.joek.com/cgi-local/fs2rev_image.pl)  ("http://www.joek.com/other/freespace/")
Title: FS3?
Post by: Sandwich on December 07, 2001, 02:14:00 pm
 
Quote
Originally posted by joek:
...I'm not going into any silly "attack of the clones" thinking here...

WAAHHHH!!!!!  (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/eek.gif)



------------------
America, stand assured that Israel truly understands what you are going through.

"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar ("http://www.geocities.com/sandvich/index.html"), the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)
Title: FS3?
Post by: Zeronet on December 10, 2001, 01:39:00 pm
If they arent linked then why does it say on the back on my FS2 Box "Your Nemesis has arrived..and they are wondering what happened to their scouting party"
Title: FS3?
Post by: joek on December 11, 2001, 08:10:00 am
 
Quote
Originally posted by Zeronet:
If they arent linked then why does it say on the back on my FS2 Box "Your Nemesis has arrived..and they are wondering what happened to their scouting party"

Going by what I heard elsewhere: marketing, marketing, marketing.

Joe.

------------------
 (http://www.joek.com/cgi-local/fs2rev_image.pl)  ("http://www.joek.com/other/freespace/")
Title: FS3?
Post by: Setekh on December 12, 2001, 03:02:00 am
 
Quote
Originally posted by sandwich:
WAAHHHH!!!!!   (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/eek.gif)

Indeed! Don't start us again...  (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif)