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General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: -Joshua- on March 03, 2007, 10:26:36 am

Title: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: -Joshua- on March 03, 2007, 10:26:36 am
I played the FS2 campaign for the second time, and when was at the mission where you got to scan the sathanas and possibly take out one of its turrets, I took out one of the forward turrets. When I got to the mission where you have to destroy atleast 2 SJ beam cannons, I destroyed all of them... (Well, I did twice, but the first time I tried I was killed by the Sathanas jumping out... No LT Cmdr. Snipes there), and after disabling and destroying the destroyer who came after, I got to high noon.

Command: MORE FIREPOWER Collusus!
COllusus: Secondary and Tertiary reactors are down! We are giving it all we got!
LT. Joshua: Collusus! I destroyed all forward beam cannons! This ship poses no threat to you! Stop wasting your reactors!

they didnt listen... and the command briefing that came after it I was told that the collussus sustained hull damage and it would take months to repair... How deadly are comm signals?
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: Snail on March 03, 2007, 11:33:36 am
Would you rather have an empty mission where you just watch the thing blow up the Sath with no messages?
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: Mehrpack on March 03, 2007, 12:36:47 pm
hi,
no he mean that the mission ist not really smart.
if there two or one sathanas beam left, ok, then i can understand the messages.
but if you can get all of the beams out and destory all of the fighters, why to the hell the fire like the hell and damage the energy-system.
and the other things, where to the hell get the they the damage on the hull?
the colly start with 100% and the video say 80%, but there was no damage?

marketing for more tax :D?

Mehrpack
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: karajorma on March 03, 2007, 12:49:02 pm
I always like to say that Command were worried that the Sathanas could jump out, repair it's cannons and then come back again. The mission makes so much more sense if you assume that was the danger of not overloading the cannons.
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: -Joshua- on March 03, 2007, 01:19:29 pm
I also said the campaign....

Anyway, Karajorma, your theory makes sense, I played the mission again and saw that the Sathanas was on a collission course with the COllusus...
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: TrashMan on March 03, 2007, 03:58:52 pm
Colission?

Havn't noticed that. After I declaw the Sath the Collie jsut parks above it and shoots.

This mission would be a good place to use the is-previous-event-true/false SEXP's and set the ship strength and messages accordingly.
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: Mobius on March 03, 2007, 04:13:24 pm
Well my High Noon II is the High Noon of your dreams!


The beam cannons of the Sathanas aren't supposed to be destroyed when the Colossus CO sends that message. The problem is that the mission was simple. The Colossus has orders to attack the Sathanas and nothing more, no waypoints for it.
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: Mehrpack on March 03, 2007, 05:51:04 pm
I always like to say that Command were worried that the Sathanas could jump out, repair it's cannons and then come back again. The mission makes so much more sense if you assume that was the danger of not overloading the cannons.

hi,
mhh i dont think so.
if they really want to jump out they had enaugh time for that.
and i dont think that a ship of that size can had realy hide in capella system, with so many ships and traffic.
and the collossos / command had track it and jump after the sathanas.

to the collission course: yes, but so slow the sathanas fly, its was enough time to destroyed, imho, without overload the weapons and reactors.

Mehrpack
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: Bob-san on March 03, 2007, 06:08:53 pm
The Sathanas is almost 6,000 meters long. Even starting at cruising speed, it will take well over 6000 meters to jump out. I think this will illustrate my point... copy over High Noon and give it orders to jump out 10 seconds after it sustains >1% hull damage. It'll probably collide with the Big C.
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: Mobius on March 03, 2007, 06:14:10 pm
Well the Colossus moves to the Sathanas side so there's no risk of collision once the Colossus has started its meneuver.
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: karajorma on March 03, 2007, 06:23:16 pm
if they really want to jump out they had enaugh time for that.

Depends on how long it takes the Sathanas to recharge it's jump engines. That's a rather fluid concept that was never really addressed in FS2.

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and i dont think that a ship of that size can had realy hide in capella system, with so many ships and traffic.


Space is big. People tend to forget that. Astronomers have been searching the skies for as long as there have been Astronomers and yet they managed to miss Eris until 4 years ago even though it's 1200km in size. A 6km sathanas is likely to be much easier to miss, especially as distance from Capella increases.

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and the collossos / command had track it and jump after the sathanas.

Ah but we know for a fact that the Shivans have better subspace engines than the GTVA. What if that means they can jump further out from the centre of the gravity well? It could be that the GTVA would know damn well exactly where the Sathanas was but be unable to do a thing about it becuase it was so far out that they couldn't touch it. :)
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: castor on March 03, 2007, 09:21:13 pm
This is why one should never play below hard difficulty  ;)
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: Arkangel on March 04, 2007, 02:18:24 am
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and i dont think that a ship of that size can had realy hide in capella system, with so many ships and traffic.


Space is big. People tend to forget that. Astronomers have been searching the skies for as long as there have been Astronomers and yet they managed to miss Eris until 4 years ago even though it's 1200km in size. A 6km sathanas is likely to be much easier to miss, especially as distance from Capella increases.


Whilst this is very true don't ships emit signals that can easily be picked up? (Radio Telescopes) Isn't it possible that, not only would every Allied ship in Capella be searching for such a signal, the technology is far more superior to what we have know?

Personally i couldn't care but there we have it: My two cents :D
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: Kosh on March 04, 2007, 02:57:40 am
I also said the campaign....

Anyway, Karajorma, your theory makes sense, I played the mission again and saw that the Sathanas was on a collission course with the COllusus...


The Sathanas is also quite fast for a ship of that size.
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: karajorma on March 04, 2007, 07:12:21 am
Whilst this is very true don't ships emit signals that can easily be picked up? (Radio Telescopes) Isn't it possible that, not only would every Allied ship in Capella be searching for such a signal, the technology is far more superior to what we have know?

If it were that easy to pick up a warship you'd have to question how Bosch managed to conceal the Iceni inside an asteroid without anyone detecting it straight away.

Again we get back to the fact that space is big and that even if the ships in question are giving out a signal after an hour at the speed of light there won't be much of it left unless the ship is actively transmitting something.
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: Snail on March 04, 2007, 07:16:35 am
Long-Range sensors never seem to pick up things. In ST, it was said there were 2 Aten cruisers though when you begin the mission there are actually 4.
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: Mobius on March 04, 2007, 10:21:09 am
So? It was ST, a pretty old campaign.

Also, in the main FS2 campaign, a 107th pilot says that there were two freighters in system a moment before the Maul jumped in.
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: Snail on March 04, 2007, 10:28:39 am
Most likely an inconsistency.
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: Mehrpack on March 04, 2007, 12:35:07 pm
The Sathanas is almost 6,000 meters long. Even starting at cruising speed, it will take well over 6000 meters to jump out. I think this will illustrate my point... copy over High Noon and give it orders to jump out 10 seconds after it sustains >1% hull damage. It'll probably collide with the Big C.

hi,
ok dont know that, i had think they can faster jump out.

Space is big. People tend to forget that. Astronomers have been searching the skies for as long as there have been Astronomers and yet they managed to miss Eris until 4 years ago even though it's 1200km in size. A 6km sathanas is likely to be much easier to miss, especially as distance from Capella increases.

nope, i didnt forget that, but capella is to this time really high traffic, much more military is there on the route as normaly.
the other thing is that so a big ship do have more problems with high gravity as a cruiser, so maybe theres isnt a way to hide inside a gas giant (yeah i know in the end-video the sahtanas was really close to the capella sun but maybe there had can so close, why the sub-space effect field close some of the garavity in the sun and so blow it up).
and she is slower as a normal cruiser / capital ship.

and the GTVA hadnt so much primitiv sensors like we today and only 4% of our sky are observed by telecopes, today.
i think we cant really compare our potentiality to observed our sun system with the potentiality to observed a sun system for the GTVA and, as far i can me remember, command say reallv often if any enemy ship jump in.

i will not say that its not possible but i think its for the sathanas not so easy to run away in capella its self.

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Ah but we know for a fact that the Shivans have better subspace engines than the GTVA. What if that means they can jump further out from the centre of the gravity well? It could be that the GTVA would know damn well exactly where the Sathanas was but be unable to do a thing about it becuase it was so far out that they couldn't touch it. :)

maybe and a good point.

Mehrpack
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: NGTM-1R on March 04, 2007, 02:51:42 pm
If it were that easy to pick up a warship you'd have to question how Bosch managed to conceal the Iceni inside an asteroid without anyone detecting it straight away.

Again we get back to the fact that space is big and that even if the ships in question are giving out a signal after an hour at the speed of light there won't be much of it left unless the ship is actively transmitting something.

The GTVA almost certainly has some kind of faster-than-light active sensor system as standard, but if not the AWACS has it at least ("tachyon-enabled"). Still, if you EMCON and go somewhere waaaay off the plane of the ecliptic you'll probably be fairly safe. But that also keeps you from doing much.

It also assumes that entering and exiting subspace doesn't throw out signals such a FTL sensor could detect. Which it probably does, involving extradimensional weirdness.
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: karajorma on March 05, 2007, 01:19:50 pm
nope, i didnt forget that, but capella is to this time really high traffic, much more military is there on the route as normaly.

Sorry but I don't buy that. Capella would not be business as usual at that time. What traffic there was would be heading straight to the EP and Vega nodes as fasts as it could. The fleet had been decimated. What resources there were would be concentrating for a strike against the Sathanas. Sure they could spread out and find it once the Shivans had jumped out but I don't buy that they'd spot them straight away.

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the other thing is that so a big ship do have more problems with high gravity as a cruiser


No it doesn't. It would experience the exact same acceleration as a cruiser would. And given that it has a higher top speed and acceleration than say a leviathan I'd say that the Sathanas would probably experience less problems if it hid near a a gas giant than some cruisers would.

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and the GTVA hadnt so much primitiv sensors like we today and only 4% of our sky are observed by telecopes, today.
i think we cant really compare our potentiality to observed our sun system with the potentiality to observed a sun system for the GTVA and, as far i can me remember, command say reallv often if any enemy ship jump in.


Command have access to your sensors though. They don't need anything else to detect incoming ships.

Anyway the point I was trying to make is that space is vast. If the Sathanas tried to hide it would be much harder to find than you claim. Again I have to point at the Iceni. This time when it managed to get all the way to the Knossos portal without someone spotting it. Even if you buy the argument that command were allowing Bosch to escape it was a really paper thin cover if it's as easy to spot the Sathanas as you say.
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: Agent_Koopa on March 05, 2007, 05:10:15 pm
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the other thing is that so a big ship do have more problems with high gravity as a cruiser


No it doesn't. It would experience the exact same acceleration as a cruiser would. And given that it has a higher top speed and acceleration than say a leviathan I'd say that the Sathanas would probably experience less problems if it hid near a a gas giant than some cruisers would.

It's got much greater mass than a Fenris, hasn't it? It may be faster, but that doesn't change the fact that it would take more power to move it around. But of course, in reality, any ship could accelerate to huge speeds eventually.

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Command have access to your sensors though. They don't need anything else to detect incoming ships.

Anyway the point I was trying to make is that space is vast. If the Sathanas tried to hide it would be much harder to find than you claim. Again I have to point at the Iceni. This time when it managed to get all the way to the Knossos portal without someone spotting it. Even if you buy the argument that command were allowing Bosch to escape it was a really paper thin cover if it's as easy to spot the Sathanas as you say.

Your sensors only detect them once they start to exit subspace. Remember, in Surrender, Belisarius!, Command tracked the NTCv Belisarius to the location of the Psamptik. Also, Command was allowing him to escape. The Sathanas is a huge ship, likely with a huge energy signature,  The Iceni is much smaller, and designed with stealth, speed, etc. in mind. Even so, it probably could not have gotten through without GTVA interference. I doubt the allegiance of the alleged "rebels".

Whilst this is very true don't ships emit signals that can easily be picked up? (Radio Telescopes) Isn't it possible that, not only would every Allied ship in Capella be searching for such a signal, the technology is far more superior to what we have know?

If it were that easy to pick up a warship you'd have to question how Bosch managed to conceal the Iceni inside an asteroid without anyone detecting it straight away.

Systems were inactive.
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: Mehrpack on March 05, 2007, 07:33:56 pm
Sorry but I don't buy that. Capella would not be business as usual at that time. What traffic there was would be heading straight to the EP and Vega nodes as fasts as it could. The fleet had been decimated. What resources there were would be concentrating for a strike against the Sathanas. Sure they could spread out and find it once the Shivans had jumped out but I don't buy that they'd spot them straight away.

hi,
you dont need to buy it, its for free ;)

traffic is traffic, they have sensors and they have eyes.
its irrelevant if they try to escape or fly patrol, if they see a sathanas they called for help and run away so fast they can.

yes the fleet had taken damage in the civil war and in the first encouter of the shivans in the nebular.
but to this time, all remaining, not on their stations needed and necessary ships in the space of the GTVA, are or was at this time on the front.
so i think and if we look in the next missions, theres a lot of capital ships in the system.

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No it doesn't. It would experience the exact same acceleration as a cruiser would. And given that it has a higher top speed and acceleration than say a leviathan I'd say that the Sathanas would probably experience less problems if it hid near a a gas giant than some cruisers would.

not only the high-speed is important, the speedup is important too, to escape gravitiy.
if the speedup not high enough to hold against the gravitiy, so you get a problem.
but yes, if the values, comparte to it, the same, then it penterate gravitiy in the exactly way.
but i think theres are other problem too in the atmosphere, but im not really sure about the problem that it caused, i mean the hull-size.

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Command have access to your sensors though. They don't need anything else to detect incoming ships.

Anyway the point I was trying to make is that space is vast. If the Sathanas tried to hide it would be much harder to find than you claim. Again I have to point at the Iceni. This time when it managed to get all the way to the Knossos portal without someone spotting it. Even if you buy the argument that command were allowing Bosch to escape it was a really paper thin cover if it's as easy to spot the Sathanas as you say.

sorry but thats like if you play blind cow, you know where the cow was, but then you dont have a glue where she go.
in the war you need the ability to track and fellow escaping enemies.
not only detecting.

yes i know that the space is a big place and that we today have many problems to find asteriods in your sun-system and that they need a minimal size before we can they detect.
and that our solarsystems have a diameter of 3 lightyears (this 3 lightyears are the gravity influence of our sun, if we left that influence then first we left really the sun-system).
but a space ships isnt a death asteriod and if you knowing the starting point, its eaiser to track as if you try to find in a chaotic system one little fuzz.

to the iceni: bosh know how the alliance scanners work and the tactics, so he know the white spots in the system and had can escape.
the other thing is, that he had spy`s on the ships and in important places, so that he gatherer intelligence informations, that him help to plan the next steps.
but shivan doesnt have the same advantages.
yes they have better sub-space engines and they have better sensors.

Mehrpack
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: karajorma on March 06, 2007, 10:21:47 am
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the other thing is that so a big ship do have more problems with high gravity as a cruiser


No it doesn't. It would experience the exact same acceleration as a cruiser would. And given that it has a higher top speed and acceleration than say a leviathan I'd say that the Sathanas would probably experience less problems if it hid near a a gas giant than some cruisers would.

It's got much greater mass than a Fenris, hasn't it? It may be faster, but that doesn't change the fact that it would take more power to move it around. But of course, in reality, any ship could accelerate to huge speeds eventually.

I mentioned that the Sathanas has higher acceleration than the Leviathan so I really don't know what point you're trying to make here.

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Your sensors only detect them once they start to exit subspace. Remember, in Surrender, Belisarius!, Command tracked the NTCv Belisarius to the location of the Psamptik.


A terran ship mind you. We never see them track a Shivan ship that way except for the Lucifer 32 years earlier. 

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Also, Command was allowing him to escape. The Sathanas is a huge ship, likely with a huge energy signature,  The Iceni is much smaller, and designed with stealth, speed, etc. in mind. Even so, it probably could not have gotten through without GTVA interference. I doubt the allegiance of the alleged "rebels".

You are assuming that the Sathanas isn't capable of silent running though. Who's to say it isn't? There's no point in the main campaign when the Shivans would have ever cared about anyone detecting the Sathanas. So we have no idea what their emissions are like when they want to be stealthed.

its irrelevant if they try to escape or fly patrol, if they see a sathanas they called for help and run away so fast they can.


Oh but it is relevent. I don't buy that the GTVA had the forces to patrol an entire system. Not after what the Sathanas did to the fleet. 

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yes the fleet had taken damage in the civil war and in the first encouter of the shivans in the nebular.
but to this time, all remaining, not on their stations needed and necessary ships in the space of the GTVA, are or was at this time on the front.
so i think and if we look in the next missions, theres a lot of capital ships in the system.


Where? There's the Psamtik and the Colossus and that's it. By time High Noon is set the Sathanas has twice destroyed GTVA blockades. I see no proof that there are other ships in the system at all.

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not only the high-speed is important, the speedup is important too, to escape gravitiy.
if the speedup not high enough to hold against the gravitiy, so you get a problem.
but yes, if the values, comparte to it, the same, then it penterate gravitiy in the exactly way.
but i think theres are other problem too in the atmosphere, but im not really sure about the problem that it caused, i mean the hull-size.

You've also missed the same point as Agent_Koopa did. The Sathanas does have higher acceleration than the leviathan regardless of it's size or mass. Did you think I wouldn't check the tables before making a flat out statement that the Sathanas was faster? :lol:


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in the war you need the ability to track and fellow escaping enemies. not only detecting.


True but apart from the Leviathan what proof do you have that ships can track the Sathanas? I'd say that the events of Speaking in Tongues where the Sathanas was only spotted by reconnaissance not by subspace tracking means that they at least have some problem tracking it since they knew pretty damn well where it was in Monster in the Mists but yet have lost it by the following mission.

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yes i know that the space is a big place and that we today have many problems to find asteriods in your sun-system and that they need a minimal size before we can they detect.
and that our solarsystems have a diameter of 3 lightyears (this 3 lightyears are the gravity influence of our sun, if we left that influence then first we left really the sun-system).
but a space ships isnt a death asteriod and if you knowing the starting point, its eaiser to track as if you try to find in a chaotic system one little fuzz.


Again I don't buy it. Even if you claim the Sathanas is bigger than the Iceni then so is an Orion class destroyer yet the ones in The Sicilian Defense were located only by reconnaissance and not by subspace tracking despite the fact that they could have only entered the system by running the Capella node blockade. Command was very interested in following these ships and yet was only able to do it by means other than subspace tracking even though the systems of the Orion must be a lot better understood than those on the Sathanas.
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: Arkangel on March 06, 2007, 04:58:12 pm
Ahhhh Touche'
Can we just simply assume that Volition did not count a people taking such a detailed view on their universe and that the abilities or actions of these factions are sporadic. Whilst in detail it is confusing with many valid points these 'plot holes' allow the designers to have more variety when creating a mission.
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: karajorma on March 06, 2007, 05:07:48 pm
I suspect that Volition did have a reason why they were so worried about the Sathanas in High Noon though. Whether we've hit on it or if it was changes\removed later we'll probably never know.
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: Mobius on March 06, 2007, 05:11:07 pm
Which is definitely true... just think about comms between Alpha Centauri and Sol....
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: Agent_Koopa on March 06, 2007, 07:38:52 pm


I mentioned that the Sathanas has higher acceleration than the Leviathan so I really don't know what point you're trying to make here.

Huh. I have no idea either. It must have seemed like a good point at the time.

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Your sensors only detect them once they start to exit subspace. Remember, in Surrender, Belisarius!, Command tracked the NTCv Belisarius to the location of the Psamptik.


A terran ship mind you. We never see them track a Shivan ship that way except for the Lucifer 32 years earlier.
That's not my point. You claimed Command could detect incoming warships through your sensors, which simply isn't true. Your sensors only pick up incoming warships' name and status just after their warp opens and the ship starts to emerge. Command tells you that the Belisarius is arriving earlier than that, (subspace tracking!) and tells you of incoming warships just before you pick up their status. This could be for two reasons; Command relies on your sensors to tell you when ships arrive at your position, or Command is a very busy person (one guy manages every single battle you're involved in, and even the Aquitaine reports to him) and only gets around to informing you when a ship is just arriving. Otherwise, a warship that is not observed jumping out can only vaguely be  predicted jumping in, or something like that. Also, if they can track the Lucifer, they can track the Sathanas.

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Also, Command was allowing him to escape. The Sathanas is a huge ship, likely with a huge energy signature,  The Iceni is much smaller, and designed with stealth, speed, etc. in mind. Even so, it probably could not have gotten through without GTVA interference. I doubt the allegiance of the alleged "rebels".

You are assuming that the Sathanas isn't capable of silent running though. Who's to say it isn't? There's no point in the main campaign when the Shivans would have ever cared about anyone detecting the Sathanas. So we have no idea what their emissions are like when they want to be stealthed.

Who's to say it is? The reactor still runs, the life-support probably still runs, the engines might, the subspace weapon might require constant attention. These are conjecture, but so is the idea of a Sathanas running silent. We don't know enough about GTVA sensor systems to entertain either idea.

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in the war you need the ability to track and fellow escaping enemies. not only detecting.


True but apart from the Leviathan what proof do you have that ships can track the Sathanas? I'd say that the events of Speaking in Tongues where the Sathanas was only spotted by reconnaissance not by subspace tracking means that they at least have some problem tracking it since they knew pretty damn well where it was in Monster in the Mists but yet have lost it by the following mission.

Recon found the Sathanas in the nebula, IIRC in the same place they left it, but even so it was found by fighters (tell me if I'm wrong here). The nebula could obscure the observation of the warp.

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yes i know that the space is a big place and that we today have many problems to find asteriods in your sun-system and that they need a minimal size before we can they detect.
and that our solarsystems have a diameter of 3 lightyears (this 3 lightyears are the gravity influence of our sun, if we left that influence then first we left really the sun-system).
but a space ships isnt a death asteriod and if you knowing the starting point, its eaiser to track as if you try to find in a chaotic system one little fuzz.


Again I don't buy it. Even if you claim the Sathanas is bigger than the Iceni then so is an Orion class destroyer yet the ones in The Sicilian Defense were located only by reconnaissance and not by subspace tracking despite the fact that they could have only entered the system by running the Capella node blockade. Command was very interested in following these ships and yet was only able to do it by means other than subspace tracking even though the systems of the Orion must be a lot better understood than those on the Sathanas.

After a ship runs a blockade it jumps a second time to throw off pursuers. A higher priority was placed on minimizing the ships that got through than going after the ships that did. The Vindicator & friends jumped to a random point in the system, then jumped to the rally point before GTVA forces could follow them.


You're right, though. FreeSpace has shown several situations where tactics are used to find hiding enemies, like in Feint! Parry! Riposte!, and it can be assumed that the Sathanas is no different.
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: Turey on March 06, 2007, 09:44:58 pm
the life-support probably still runs

Lies! Go watch hallfight and shiphit06. Shivans don't need no steeking life support!
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: karajorma on March 07, 2007, 03:29:30 am
That's not my point. You claimed Command could detect incoming warships through your sensors, which simply isn't true.

Actually I was on about everything except the Belisarius. You threw me off with this.

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as far i can me remember, command say reallv often if any enemy ship jump in.

The Belisarius is the only ship that the GTVA tracks through subspace IIRC. They do however say really often when a ship actually jump in so I assumed that was what you were on about.

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Who's to say it is? The reactor still runs, the life-support probably still runs, the engines might, the subspace weapon might require constant attention. These are conjecture, but so is the idea of a Sathanas running silent. We don't know enough about GTVA sensor systems to entertain either idea.

I don't need to prove that the Sathanas is capable of silent running though. Have you forgotten the original topic under discussion? The point was that there was no reason why Command felt the Sathanas had to die so quickly. I countered with that it could hide. If you're going to prove me wrong you have to prove that the Sathanas being able to hide in Capella goes against canon. I don't have to prove that it could however. Just that it might have been able to and that might have been why Command was so scared.

The second you admit that there is no canon information either way about whether the Sathanas can go into silent running mode is the second you lose this part of the argument. Not my fault you choose to get into an argument with an uneven burden of proof. :p

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True but apart from the Leviathan what proof do you have that ships can track the Sathanas? I'd say that the events of Speaking in Tongues where the Sathanas was only spotted by reconnaissance not by subspace tracking means that they at least have some problem tracking it since they knew pretty damn well where it was in Monster in the Mists but yet have lost it by the following mission.

Recon found the Sathanas in the nebula, IIRC in the same place they left it, but even so it was found by fighters (tell me if I'm wrong here). The nebula could obscure the observation of the warp.

Nope. They they found the Sathanas heading towards the Gamma Draconis node in Speaking in Tongues. Till then they had no idea where the Sathanas was.

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You're right, though. FreeSpace has shown several situations where tactics are used to find hiding enemies, like in Feint! Parry! Riposte!, and it can be assumed that the Sathanas is no different.

But I'm not saying the Sathanas definitely would have been able to hide in Capella. I'm saying that Command was worried about the possibility of it doing so. Command had to consider the fact that there were 250 million people in Capella and large numbers of them could have died if the Sathanas jumped out, repaired even one cannon and then attacked a planet.

In a situation like that you don't take risks. You don't assume "Oh well its 4 beam cannons are down, we're safe now" The Sathanas was still a very big threat. It had to die quickly.
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: Wobble73 on March 07, 2007, 04:44:18 am
You do have a point Kara, but when have the Shivans ever used any kind of stealth tactic? I just don't see the Shivans running and hiding, it's just not their way. So why would Command be worried that they might suddenly start using such a tactic.
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: karajorma on March 07, 2007, 04:55:16 am
Cause for once they had a Shivan vessel which couldn't attack. That's also unprecedented too.

Shivan vessels might not care much about saving their own skins but it does seem odd to expect a Shivan to sit there and let the enemy take its time killing it don't you think? 
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: TrashMan on March 07, 2007, 06:49:38 am
I don't need to prove that the Sathanas is capable of silent running though. Have you forgotten the original topic under discussion? The point was that there was no reason why Command felt the Sathanas had to die so quickly. I countered with that it could hide. If you're going to prove me wrong you have to prove that the Sathanas being able to hide in Capella goes against canon. I don't have to prove that it could however. Just that it might have been able to and that might have been why Command was so scared.

The second you admit that there is no canon information either way about whether the Sathanas can go into silent running mode is the second you lose this part of the argument. Not my fault you choose to get into an argument with an uneven burden of proof. :p

Ehh...not really.
When making assumptions one should base it on what one actually knows about FS universe, not what one doesn't know or what could have been.

We do know the GTVA can track shivan ships if it can see it jumping out (i.e. - if it's inside sensor range of a allied warship)

We do know a sathanas can carry many fighters/bombers and that makes it dangerous even without the beam cannons. We do not know how many it had left (running though the blockade, the ones it lost while you took out the beams)

We do know that the Sath ran trough the blockade unscratched (impossible, but for story purposes...), the only damage it took before the fight with Colossuss is from the bombers.

I would agree that a Sath was still a big threat, but meltnig the colleis beam cannons makes no sense - it was in an allied system after all, with more allied warships on the way, chances that it could escape are slim. Even more important - melting the canons makes no sense if there was eve na remote possiblity taht the shivans had more than one sath (or if not all the beam cannosn were destroyed). That way you'd risk loosing the colossuss itself...
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: karajorma on March 07, 2007, 07:42:46 am
I would agree that a Sath was still a big threat, but meltnig the colleis beam cannons makes no sense - it was in an allied system after all, with more allied warships on the way, chances that it could escape are slim. Even more important - melting the canons makes no sense if there was eve na remote possiblity taht the shivans had more than one sath (or if not all the beam cannosn were destroyed). That way you'd risk loosing the colossuss itself...

We know pretty much for a fact that Command thought that the Shivans only had one Sathanas. They probably thought of the Sathanas as being the Shivan analogue to the Colossus. That assumption might have been stupid I'll agree but it was Command's belief at the time.

Given that assumption melting the canons was a perfectly sensible choice. And we don't know that more allied ships were on the way at all. Or that they'd arrive in time to make a difference if the Sathanas did manage to repair its beams. As I said before the only canon ships still known to be in system were the Colossus and the Psamtik.
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: Agent_Koopa on March 07, 2007, 04:45:58 pm
I would agree that a Sath was still a big threat, but meltnig the colleis beam cannons makes no sense - it was in an allied system after all, with more allied warships on the way, chances that it could escape are slim. Even more important - melting the canons makes no sense if there was eve na remote possiblity taht the shivans had more than one sath (or if not all the beam cannosn were destroyed). That way you'd risk loosing the colossuss itself...
They didn't completely melt their cannons, they were just on the verge of doing so. It makes no sense to destroy your own cannons if there's no guarantee that doing so will destroy the Sathanas faster.


And I'm too lazy to write anything other than I cede the argument to Karajorma.
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: Mehrpack on March 07, 2007, 06:01:07 pm
Oh but it is relevent. I don't buy that the GTVA had the forces to patrol an entire system. Not after what the Sathanas did to the fleet. 

hi,
dont meaning that they patroul the whole system, but i mean that is there traffic, escaping civilian and some military patrols.
if they see a shivan, they yell for help.

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Where? There's the Psamtik and the Colossus and that's it. By time High Noon is set the Sathanas has twice destroyed GTVA blockades. I see no proof that there are other ships in the system at all.

i think of the carrier the aquitaine was there too, and i dont think that command use the completly fleet to blockade the node.
all what they had need was time and the fighters/bomber of the sathanas are a great thread too.
so i think there was another military units in the system to intercept possible secondary targets, startet by the sathanas.

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You've also missed the same point as Agent_Koopa did. The Sathanas does have higher acceleration than the leviathan regardless of it's size or mass. Did you think I wouldn't check the tables before making a flat out statement that the Sathanas was faster? :lol:

ähm nope, sorry, ok under this sights they havnt so much problems with the gravity.

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True but apart from the Leviathan what proof do you have that ships can track the Sathanas? I'd say that the events of Speaking in Tongues where the Sathanas was only spotted by reconnaissance not by subspace tracking means that they at least have some problem tracking it since they knew pretty damn well where it was in Monster in the Mists but yet have lost it by the following mission.

we dont know what for ship have what for sensor ability, but a hecate as a commanding ship, imho need good sensors or good eyes.
but i didnt think that a leviathan or fenris have the best sensors of ships, aside the awacs, the ship design is many years old and didnt chance in last 30 years.

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Again I don't buy it. Even if you claim the Sathanas is bigger than the Iceni then so is an Orion class destroyer yet the ones in The Sicilian Defense were located only by reconnaissance and not by subspace tracking despite the fact that they could have only entered the system by running the Capella node blockade. Command was very interested in following these ships and yet was only able to do it by means other than subspace tracking even though the systems of the Orion must be a lot better understood than those on the Sathanas.

the enemy orion do have a better understanding about the searching pattern as the sathanas.
and i not only mean the mass, i mean the emission of so a great ship.
but we didnt know if the shivans have a special creep drive or stealth mode. i think its not really possible, because thats really match the tactics of the shivan.
they onslaught a race and dont creep, imo.

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Nope. They they found the Sathanas heading towards the Gamma Draconis node in Speaking in Tongues. Till then they had no idea where the Sathanas was.

the sathanas was to this time in the nebular, witch cause many problems for the allied sensor systems.
i think we can compare this area to a clear space area.

Mehrpack
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: karajorma on March 07, 2007, 08:01:56 pm
dont meaning that they patroul the whole system, but i mean that is there traffic, escaping civilian and some military patrols.
if they see a shivan, they yell for help.


I never denied that they would. But space is big and civilian traffic will do point to point jumps and will also have much crappier sensors than military craft. Unless the Sathanas jumps within visual range of a civilian ship they aren't going to see a thing.

Furthermore these ships are all going to be clustered around the planets anyway. They wouldn't be evenly spaced out. All the Sathanas has to do in order to hide is simply jump to an area of space where there are no planets for 100 million kilometres in any direction. Who the hell would be anywhere near there to detect them?

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i think of the carrier the aquitaine was there too


Based on what? The Aquitaine was last mentioned as being in the Nebula during Speaking in Tongues. After that we don't hear from it again until long after the Sathanas is destroyed.

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and i dont think that command use the completly fleet to blockade the node.


Again, based on what? Sending the Colossus against the Sathanas was an act of desperation. Yet no other capships were present in that mission to help the Colossus so where where they?

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the enemy orion do have a better understanding about the searching pattern as the sathanas.

Search patterns which I deny the validity of in the first place since space is so big that it could take years to search the entire system.

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and i not only mean the mass, i mean the emission of so a great ship.


Okay first lets challenge this assumption that a large ship has bigger emissions. Yes the Sathanas will have systems that use more power than a smaller ship but it also has much thicker armour which is going to cut the strength of those emissions down. Remember that a nuclear strike with an antimatter weapon doesn't wipe out the entire crew of a capship so we already know that whatever the Sathanas is built out of is largely impervious to EM radiation.

You haven't even proved that the Sathanas actually has higher emissions than a smaller ship.

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but we didnt know if the shivans have a special creep drive or stealth mode. i think its not really possible, because thats really match the tactics of the shivan.
they onslaught a race and dont creep, imo.


They don't sit still for 5 minutes and allow a weaker ship to blow the crap out of them with BGreens either. So whatever the Sathanas' response would have been was atypical anyway. And onslaught race or not let me point out that the Lucifer had a habit of wondering all over the place rather than simply staying where it was and taking on all comers. So there is canon proof of the Shivans not simply charging in at the enemy even when they had a vastly superior ship.

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the sathanas was to this time in the nebular, witch cause many problems for the allied sensor systems.
i think we can compare this area to a clear space area.

The nebula may have caused problems but that doesn't mean you can assume you can instantly find a needle in a haystack the second you are out of it.
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: TrashMan on March 08, 2007, 06:05:22 am
I wouldn't say an act of desperation.
It was planned. Command didn't want to loose the collie - they wanted to give him every possible advantage and thus the bombing run on sath's beams.

More important, a state-of-the-art ship like the Collie would have superb sensors. If the sath were to jump out the Collie would certanly be able to track it.
the saths beams were destroyed seconds before it jumped to Capella. Repairs on a ship that big take a LOT of time (evidenced by the hul repair on the collie). Fixing a beam cannon the size of a corvette would take resources and time - and I doubt the Sath would have either of it.
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: karajorma on March 08, 2007, 08:07:17 am
I wouldn't say an act of desperation.
It was planned. Command didn't want to loose the collie - they wanted to give him every possible advantage and thus the bombing run on sath's beams.

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The Satahanas entered the Capella system and obliterated the line of defense we had established to intercept it. We now have no choice but to send in the Colossus. With its beam cannons still operational, the Sathanas has sufficient firepower to win this engagement.

Do you even bother to look at the missions before coming out with those comments? The only way you don't get that intro is if you managed to take out all 4 beam cannons.

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More important, a state-of-the-art ship like the Collie would have superb sensors. If the sath were to jump out the Collie would certanly be able to track it.


Prove it. Don't just assert it. Prove it.

We have no idea what the recharge time is on the Sathanas' jump engines. Even if I believe you that the Colossus can track the Sathanas there might be nothing but empty space there by the time Command can send a capship to its location.

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the saths beams were destroyed seconds before it jumped to Capella.

Only on one particular outcome. You're cherry-picking data again.

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Repairs on a ship that big take a LOT of time (evidenced by the hul repair on the collie). Fixing a beam cannon the size of a corvette would take resources and time - and I doubt the Sath would have either of it.

 The colossus repairs it's disabled fighterbay only a few minutes after the start of Their Finest Hour. The Aquitaine's destroyed engine subsystems are repaired after only a few minutes work on them in Argonautica. Just because a subsystem is destroyed doesn't men it's reduced to scrap. It just means that the subsystem is incapacitated. The Colossus requires months worth of repairs because it took heavy damage from it's beam cannons over heating. This damage all occured internal to the Colossus and thus is different from the damage a ship takes from being shot.

Besides there is a huge difference between the time required for a battlefield jury-rig and a full naval dockyard refitting. You simply can't compare the repair times for the two.


Oh and if the Sathanas can simply jump further out of the gravity well than anything the Alliance have they're definitely ****ed.  The Sathanas could just sit and wait however long it wants to. I've got no proof either way and it might have definitely been a consideration for Command.
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: aldo_14 on March 08, 2007, 10:01:27 am
I don't need to prove that the Sathanas is capable of silent running though. Have you forgotten the original topic under discussion? The point was that there was no reason why Command felt the Sathanas had to die so quickly. I countered with that it could hide. If you're going to prove me wrong you have to prove that the Sathanas being able to hide in Capella goes against canon. I don't have to prove that it could however. Just that it might have been able to and that might have been why Command was so scared.

The second you admit that there is no canon information either way about whether the Sathanas can go into silent running mode is the second you lose this part of the argument. Not my fault you choose to get into an argument with an uneven burden of proof. :p

Ehh...not really.
When making assumptions one should base it on what one actually knows about FS universe, not what one doesn't know or what could have been.

We do know the GTVA can track shivan ships if it can see it jumping out (i.e. - if it's inside sensor range of a allied warship)

We do know a sathanas can carry many fighters/bombers and that makes it dangerous even without the beam cannons. We do not know how many it had left (running though the blockade, the ones it lost while you took out the beams)

We do know that the Sath ran trough the blockade unscratched (impossible, but for story purposes...), the only damage it took before the fight with Colossuss is from the bombers.

I would agree that a Sath was still a big threat, but meltnig the colleis beam cannons makes no sense - it was in an allied system after all, with more allied warships on the way, chances that it could escape are slim. Even more important - melting the canons makes no sense if there was eve na remote possiblity taht the shivans had more than one sath (or if not all the beam cannosn were destroyed). That way you'd risk loosing the colossuss itself...

It'd take a very special kind of idiot to give the greatest threat in human history the opportunity to walk away, when it was most vulnerable,  because they were afraid of a little cosmetic damage.  If the Colossus nearly melts itself killing the Sathani - slowly - what do you think it'd do to lesser beam cannons?  That juggernaught ain't gonna sit there forever doing nothing......  and what makes you think the Shivans wouldn't send reinforcements if it was in genuine trouble?
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: karajorma on March 08, 2007, 10:42:34 am
Hell even if you accept that the Sathanas can't hide in Capella what's to stop it buggering back off to the nebula and coming back 3 weeks later with fully repaired cannons?

It's not like there's much of the blockade left.
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: -Joshua- on March 08, 2007, 01:59:35 pm
THey don't mind... Just call in Alpha 1 again ;)
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: Mehrpack on March 08, 2007, 09:11:07 pm
I never denied that they would. But space is big and civilian traffic will do point to point jumps and will also have much crappier sensors than military craft. Unless the Sathanas jumps within visual range of a civilian ship they aren't going to see a thing.

Furthermore these ships are all going to be clustered around the planets anyway. They wouldn't be evenly spaced out. All the Sathanas has to do in order to hide is simply jump to an area of space where there are no planets for 100 million kilometres in any direction. Who the hell would be anywhere near there to detect them?

hi,
i know that the traffic isnt overall in the system but the traffic help, its the sathanas not here you can kick it of the list.
if the sathanas jump in this area, some one see it.
and again i know it, that a solar system is a great place, but i think isnt impossible to find a sathanas in a good time i a very populatet system.

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Based on what? The Aquitaine was last mentioned as being in the Nebula during Speaking in Tongues. After that we don't hear from it again until long after the Sathanas is destroyed.

the aquitaine is the flagship of the capella fleet, if they not to much damage, then is she in the system.
but yes we doesnt have any save informations that they is really in the system.
but the logical say, if they not in repair, then she is there to start their fighters.

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Again, based on what? Sending the Colossus against the Sathanas was an act of desperation. Yet no other capships were present in that mission to help the Colossus so where where they?

ok question: you have many civilian targets, a big thread that can start a lot of fighter, bombers and maybe corvetts.
do you give the civilian targets guards or not?

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Search patterns which I deny the validity of in the first place since space is so big that it could take years to search the entire system.

based on what?
do you really know how good and how fast is the GTVA ability do scan a lot of space?
today we need years, yes, but freespace isnt today.

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Okay first lets challenge this assumption that a large ship has bigger emissions. Yes the Sathanas will have systems that use more power than a smaller ship but it also has much thicker armour which is going to cut the strength of those emissions down. Remember that a nuclear strike with an antimatter weapon doesn't wipe out the entire crew of a capship so we already know that whatever the Sathanas is built out of is largely impervious to EM radiation.

You haven't even proved that the Sathanas actually has higher emissions than a smaller ship.

armor didnt reduce all of emissions.
gamma radiation for example.
but yes i dont know what the sathanas do emit, its only the thinking about a big ship with a strong weapons and engine.
maybe my thinking is wrong.
and yes i cant proved that the sathanas emit more than a smaller ship, but you can it didnt too, that they emit with the same strong as a smaller ship.
in the tables are no informations about this, and a sahtanas didnt exist in real.
so we can only think about it, and based on logical thinking we can discuss about it.

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They don't sit still for 5 minutes and allow a weaker ship to blow the crap out of them with BGreens either. So whatever the Sathanas' response would have been was atypical anyway. And onslaught race or not let me point out that the Lucifer had a habit of wondering all over the place rather than simply staying where it was and taking on all comers. So there is canon proof of the Shivans not simply charging in at the enemy even when they had a vastly superior ship.

the simples answer is: they have no fear and they convinced win.
but yes thats speculation.

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The nebula may have caused problems but that doesn't mean you can assume you can instantly find a needle in a haystack the second you are out of it.

i doesnt say instantly.
all what i say that is possible to find the sathanas and that can be hunted down.

Mehrpack
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: ssmit132 on March 09, 2007, 01:24:06 am
That juggernaught ain't gonna sit there forever doing nothing......  and what makes you think the Shivans wouldn't send reinforcements if it was in genuine trouble?

Even if they were going to send in reinforcments, The Sathanas would still be screwed, since they would have to come out of the nebula, through Gamma Draconis, and into Capella. The only other support ship that could be in the area would be the Beleth, and that should be destroyed anyway.
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: TrashMan on March 09, 2007, 03:44:25 am
I wouldn't say an act of desperation.
It was planned. Command didn't want to loose the collie - they wanted to give him every possible advantage and thus the bombing run on sath's beams.

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The Satahanas entered the Capella system and obliterated the line of defense we had established to intercept it. We now have no choice but to send in the Colossus. With its beam cannons still operational, the Sathanas has sufficient firepower to win this engagement.

Do you even bother to look at the missions before coming out with those comments? The only way you don't get that intro is if you managed to take out all 4 beam cannons.

I usually get 3 beams, so I saw that. All this confirms is that the Collie was plan B if the line of defence should fail...


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More important, a state-of-the-art ship like the Collie would have superb sensors. If the sath were to jump out the Collie would certanly be able to track it.


Prove it. Don't just assert it. Prove it.

We have no idea what the recharge time is on the Sathanas' jump engines. Even if I believe you that the Colossus can track the Sathanas there might be nothing but empty space there by the time Command can send a capship to its location.

The GTVA tracked other ship before, including shivan ones. It kinda makes sense that the mightiest ship in the GTVA fleet would have good sensory equipment. The NTF behaviour during blockade runs (jump to a random position and then to the rally point) proves that ships can be tracked easily.

Oh, let's not forget that the Sath just jumped in Capella and engaged the Collie immediately, while hte Collie was there for a long time - meaning, the collies jump drives were charged allready, while the Sath's needed to charge. This also means that the collei can immediately persue the Sath (at least for the first jump).
Just how much damage it could do a Sath before it jumps again is unknown tough.

Oh, and hte shivans don't have a tendancy to run. The Sath just stood there as the Collie obliderated it.


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the saths beams were destroyed seconds before it jumped to Capella.

Only on one particular outcome. You're cherry-picking data again. [/quote]

And the Collie would be well informed of the Saths status by the time it arrives given that node-travel takes time and would adjust it's strategy accordingly. Aslo, it had bombers allready in the air ready to take out the remaining beams (if any).
Let's not forget that no beams destroyed = failed outcome. But even that is no big problem given the bombers. Hell, I can take out a beam cannon just with trebs before the fighters the sath launches get half way to me...

Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: karajorma on March 09, 2007, 09:49:08 am
i know that the traffic isnt overall in the system but the traffic help, its the sathanas not here you can kick it of the list.
if the sathanas jump in this area, some one see it.
and again i know it, that a solar system is a great place, but i think isnt impossible to find a sathanas in a good time i a very populatet system.

I never said that the Sathanas was impossible to find. I said Command weren't willing to take the risk that they couldn't find it if it did try to hide. Completely different matter. Say the chance of the Sathanas hiding successfully was only 10%, but if it did succeed millions of people would die if it decided to attack a planet. You're Command. What would you do?

Maybe the Sathanas wouldn't have jumped out. Maybe the Colossus could easily have killed it using the weapons it had without needed to overcharge the beams but what most people are forgetting is that Command didn't know that!

You have to judge actions on what was the most sensible thing to do at the time. Not what is the most sensible thing to have done in hindsight. Both yourself and Trashman are missing this point. 

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Based on what? The Aquitaine was last mentioned as being in the Nebula during Speaking in Tongues. After that we don't hear from it again until long after the Sathanas is destroyed.

the aquitaine is the flagship of the capella fleet, if they not to much damage, then is she in the system.
but yes we doesnt have any save informations that they is really in the system.
but the logical say, if they not in repair, then she is there to start their fighters.


That's a pretty big assumption given that we know that there were other Shivan forces still in the nebula. What if the Aquitaine remained behind to engage these forces and prevent them from following the Sathanas into Gamma Draconis and beginning the second Shivan invasion? What if its ships were involved in the rescue efforts for the ships involved in the Gamma Draconis blockade? I can think of a few very important things the Aquitaine could have been doing that whole time (In fact there's a nice mini-campaign in that actually). You can't simply assume that the GTVA pulled every single ship all the way back to Capella and left the door open for the Shivans to just march into GTVA systems.

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ok question: you have many civilian targets, a big thread that can start a lot of fighter, bombers and maybe corvetts.
do you give the civilian targets guards or not?

Given that you can defend those targets by pumping up the blockade it's quite possible that Command did that instead of assigning them as guards for civilian tagets. How could Command possibly guard all this civilian traffic? And if they couldn't maybe it would be more sensible to stop the Sathanas before it could enter Capella and threaten the civilians in the first place?

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Search patterns which I deny the validity of in the first place since space is so big that it could take years to search the entire system.

based on what?
do you really know how good and how fast is the GTVA ability do scan a lot of space?
today we need years, yes, but freespace isnt today.

Yes I know the GTVA has greater technology but how much greater? If you can show me that they can scan the entire system quickly when a ship is actively trying to hide I might buy it. If not it could take years to scan a whole system as I said.

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armor didnt reduce all of emissions.
gamma radiation for example.


We know for an absolute fact that capship armour does block gamma rays simply because when you hit a ship with an antimatter weapon everyone doesn't immediately suffer a lethal does of radiation. So armour is definitely having an effect on gamma rays

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but yes i dont know what the sathanas do emit, its only the thinking about a big ship with a strong weapons and engine.
maybe my thinking is wrong.
and yes i cant proved that the sathanas emit more than a smaller ship, but you can it didnt too, that they emit with the same strong as a smaller ship.
in the tables are no informations about this, and a sahtanas didnt exist in real.
so we can only think about it, and based on logical thinking we can discuss about it.


And logic says that you can't answer the question in either direction. We already have canon proof that capship armour can block certain forms of EM. Larger ships have more armour so it's a reasonable assumption that they can also block more EM. What then matters is whether the increase in armour is enough to compensate for the larger emissions and we have no data on that.

So your argument that the Sathanas is bigger and therefore must have larger emissions is a fallacy. We simply don't know. Which is exactly what I said in the first place.

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They don't sit still for 5 minutes and allow a weaker ship to blow the crap out of them with BGreens either. So whatever the Sathanas' response would have been was atypical anyway. And onslaught race or not let me point out that the Lucifer had a habit of wondering all over the place rather than simply staying where it was and taking on all comers. So there is canon proof of the Shivans not simply charging in at the enemy even when they had a vastly superior ship.

the simples answer is: they have no fear and they convinced win.
but yes thats speculation.

It's also a pretty strange assumption. What were they planning to use to win? Harsh language? The Shivans might be xenophobes but the one thing they aren't is stupid.
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: Mehrpack on March 09, 2007, 07:28:22 pm
I never said that the Sathanas was impossible to find. I said Command weren't willing to take the risk that they couldn't find it if it did try to hide. Completely different matter. Say the chance of the Sathanas hiding successfully was only 10%, but if it did succeed millions of people would die if it decided to attack a planet. You're Command. What would you do?

Maybe the Sathanas wouldn't have jumped out. Maybe the Colossus could easily have killed it using the weapons it had without needed to overcharge the beams but what most people are forgetting is that Command didn't know that!

You have to judge actions on what was the most sensible thing to do at the time. Not what is the most sensible thing to have done in hindsight. Both yourself and Trashman are missing this point. 

hi,
ok, i wrong understood this, sorry.

mhh yeah you right under this point of view, i said yes.


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That's a pretty big assumption given that we know that there were other Shivan forces still in the nebula. What if the Aquitaine remained behind to engage these forces and prevent them from following the Sathanas into Gamma Draconis and beginning the second Shivan invasion? What if its ships were involved in the rescue efforts for the ships involved in the Gamma Draconis blockade? I can think of a few very important things the Aquitaine could have been doing that whole time (In fact there's a nice mini-campaign in that actually). You can't simply assume that the GTVA pulled every single ship all the way back to Capella and left the door open for the Shivans to just march into GTVA systems.

all units was on the fallback.
because they try to close the node, i think theres not many time between the arvial of the sathanas in gamma dragonics and the fight with the colossus.
and i think to run in a trap with low unit and no reinformence.
and capella is a GTVA system, they allready there.
but if units not in capella, then its more likly in gamma dragonics.
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ok question: you have many civilian targets, a big thread that can start a lot of fighter, bombers and maybe corvetts.
do you give the civilian targets guards or not?

Given that you can defend those targets by pumping up the blockade it's quite possible that Command did that instead of assigning them as guards for civilian tagets. How could Command possibly guard all this civilian traffic? And if they couldn't maybe it would be more sensible to stop the Sathanas before it could enter Capella and threaten the civilians in the first place?

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Yes I know the GTVA has greater technology but how much greater? If you can show me that they can scan the entire system quickly when a ship is actively trying to hide I might buy it. If not it could take years to scan a whole system as I said.

you so often say, that i write it, but yes your right, we dont know how fast the GTVA can scan a system.

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We know for an absolute fact that capship armour does block gamma rays simply because when you hit a ship with an antimatter weapon everyone doesn't immediately suffer a lethal does of radiation. So armour is definitely having an effect on gamma rays

yes i know was a bad example.
i note it, after i shuting down my pc, but i hadnt time to chance it.
but i think they dosent block radition thats do damage.
tachyons maybe, but we didnt know if they generate so a radition and if it really blocked.


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And logic says that you can't answer the question in either direction. We already have canon proof that capship armour can block certain forms of EM. Larger ships have more armour so it's a reasonable assumption that they can also block more EM. What then matters is whether the increase in armour is enough to compensate for the larger emissions and we have no data on that.

So your argument that the Sathanas is bigger and therefore must have larger emissions is a fallacy. We simply don't know. Which is exactly what I said in the first place.

i think its stand 50:50, and yes we cant it say really.
but i think thats impossible to block all radition, i believe that only radition is blocked was is dangerous for shivans.
but theres the next questions, what for radition is dangerous.
and then the open question of a creepy mode, where so radition are limited.

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It's also a pretty strange assumption. What were they planning to use to win? Harsh language? The Shivans might be xenophobes but the one thing they aren't is stupid.

i think its similary to the borg, a single borg fight to the death for the hive.
its for him irrelevant if he die or not, he protect the hive of all cost.
or like bees.
a bee die if she pang a enemy.
i think theres some parralles between the actions.
thats doesnt mean that shivans are stupid, but maybe its more instinct as we think.

a last word: i enjoy that discussion *g* its make me fun and its a nice training for me :) because i think you understand the most of my crap that i do write :D

Mehrpack
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: TrashMan on March 10, 2007, 05:18:30 pm
If I were Command, I wouldn't risk the Collie.
Even if the Sath would to jump out all the advantages are on the GTVA side - the Sath is in hostile territory, some GTVA ships were in-systems, other were on theri way, not to mention the sheer number of fighters/bombers the GTVA prolly has on the planets.

The Sath surely lost some of it's fighter complement (a lot actually) and can't re-supply in Capella, not to mention that there aren't any shivan shipyards where tehy could repair the thing.

But realisticly, the Collie would have launched all the bombers it had (i'd guess around 30 wings or so) and swarmed the sath as it entered Capella, then come close and finish it off...
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: karajorma on March 11, 2007, 03:05:38 am
all units was on the fallback.
because they try to close the node, i think theres not many time between the arvial of the sathanas in gamma dragonics and the fight with the colossus.
and i think to run in a trap with low unit and no reinformence.
and capella is a GTVA system, they allready there.
but if units not in capella, then its more likly in gamma dragonics.


Probably but once the the Sathanas proved that the node hadn't collapsed something needed to stay and guard that node wouldn't you agree?

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but i think they dosent block radition thats do damage.
tachyons maybe, but we didnt know if they generate so a radition and if it really blocked.


Gamma rays are damaging though. An antimatter weapon puts out only gamma rays. Any other form of energy/damage you see would be through  interactions with the vaporised ships hull etc. So there's going to be a very large gamma ray source right next to the hull when a bomb hits. When it comes to bombs, with the exception of the meson bomb the GTVA uses pretty scientifically accurate weapons (i.e either stuff we could build now or stuff we can actually predict quite well). Again apart from the meson bomb :v: never invented any bombs using anything which would have largely unknown properties. So it doesn't matter if the hull can block tachyons. We have no proof that any weapons use them.

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i think its stand 50:50, and yes we cant it say really.
but i think thats impossible to block all radition, i believe that only radition is blocked was is dangerous for shivans.


It doesn't have to block it all. Just enough to make it hard to tell from the background.

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i think its similary to the borg, a single borg fight to the death for the hive.
its for him irrelevant if he die or not, he protect the hive of all cost.
or like bees.
a bee die if she pang a enemy.
i think theres some parralles between the actions.
thats doesnt mean that shivans are stupid, but maybe its more instinct as we think.

The point though is that the Shivans had no weapons that could hurt the Colossus (Well maybe the LRed if it's not destroyed but we don't even see them turn to use it!).  If the Shivans really are that desperate to kill the Colossus surely they would have swarmed out of the Sathanas and tried using their personal beam cannons against it?

Hell even if you buy the whole "The Shivans stayed because they wanted to kill their enemy" argument if I were in command I would have told the Colossus too kill the Sathanas quickly to stop that possibility. The idea of Shivans boarding the Colossus is pretty horrific.

I usually get 3 beams, so I saw that. All this confirms is that the Collie was plan B if the line of defence should fail...


And that there was no plan C. Surely you understand what "We have no choice" means?

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The GTVA tracked other ship before, including shivan ones. It kinda makes sense that the mightiest ship in the GTVA fleet would have good sensory equipment. The NTF behaviour during blockade runs (jump to a random position and then to the rally point) proves that ships can be tracked easily.


Actually it doesn't. The As I pointed out before those rally points were found by recon. Not subspace tracking.

IIRC the Belisarius is the only ship that is definitely subspace tracked in FS2.

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Oh, let's not forget that the Sath just jumped in Capella and engaged the Collie immediately, while hte Collie was there for a long time - meaning, the collies jump drives were charged allready, while the Sath's needed to charge. This also means that the collei can immediately persue the Sath (at least for the first jump).

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The Satahanas entered the Capella system and obliterated the line of defense we had established to intercept it. We now have no choice but to send in the Colossus.

Run the mission. What do you see? The Sathanas. The Gamma Draconis node behind it and the Colossus. It's pretty obvious that the either the Colossus arrived after the Sathanas did or for some reason Command let it hang back and just sit there while the Sathanas chewed its way through the rest of the fleet.

So I'd say it's pretty reasonable to say that the Sathanas will be able to jump before the Colossus can.

(Actually the positioning of the Sathanas does rather beg the question of how the hell the Psamtik managed to get into the system to launch it's fighters without begin attacked by the Sathanas. :D )

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Oh, and hte shivans don't have a tendancy to run. The Sath just stood there as the Collie obliderated it.

That's not proof of anything. My whole point was that maybe the Shivans were trying to recharge/repair their jump drives to get the hell out. The fact that they sat there indicates absolutely nothing if that was what they were trying to do.

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And the Collie would be well informed of the Saths status by the time it arrives given that node-travel takes time and would adjust it's strategy accordingly. Aslo, it had bombers allready in the air ready to take out the remaining beams (if any).


What bombers? What mission are you playing?! The only bombers in the mission are Alpha wing and they're vasudan bombers from the Psamtik!

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Let's not forget that no beams destroyed = failed outcome. But even that is no big problem given the bombers. Hell, I can take out a beam cannon just with trebs before the fighters the sath launches get half way to me...

Again. What bombers?

If I were Command, I wouldn't risk the Collie.
Even if the Sath would to jump out all the advantages are on the GTVA side - the Sath is in hostile territory, some GTVA ships were in-systems, other were on theri way, not to mention the sheer number of fighters/bombers the GTVA prolly has on the planets.

To to mention I've given you about a dozen arguments why that might not be true. You can restate your argument all you wish but that doesn't make you right.

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The Sath surely lost some of it's fighter complement (a lot actually) and can't re-supply in Capella, not to mention that there aren't any shivan shipyards where tehy could repair the thing.

And who say the Colossus had a full complement? The Colossus had just finished destroying the NTF when the Sathanas was first spotted. Surely it too lost some of its fighters.

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But realisticly, the Collie would have launched all the bombers it had (i'd guess around 30 wings or so) and swarmed the sath as it entered Capella, then come close and finish it off...

Which surely indicates that it didn't have them then?
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: Snail on March 11, 2007, 04:51:35 am
But realisticly, the Collie would have launched all the bombers it had (i'd guess around 30 wings or so) and swarmed the sath as it entered Capella, then come close and finish it off...

I agree with Kara on that count, the the Colossus prolly had deployed all its bombers elsewhere at the aforementioned blockade.
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: wtf_cl0vvn on March 11, 2007, 03:53:35 pm
On the subject of the Aquitaine, since all ships were withdrawn from the nebula after the decision was made to destroy the portal, it was probably somewhere deeper within the system, or in another system, to be the half-assed Plan C.

The GTVA still has some sort of navy at that point, its just nowhere near what it used to be.

Remember, they still have enough strength to go dicking about in the nebula AFTER the Sathanas is destroyed, hunting for the Adm. Bosch, and when Knossos II is discovered, they send in the Psamtik to spearhead an expedition almost immediately.

It's not like the ENTIRE GTVA was reduced to nothing by the Sathanas. Remember, we still have to clean up after the NTF mess. Polaris and Sirius, though green on a star chart, are probably nowhere near stable. You'll have remnants of the NTF still raising hell, pro-NTF civilians raising hell, and general disorder after a huge rebellion. same with Polaris. Regulus would probably be even worse.

That the NTF is no threat is not necessarily true: remember that the NTF withdraws their assault on the portal after the Iceni crosses the node. There will be remnants of the organized NTF navy, and whatever militia they will have raised in desperation in the final days of the rebellion.

Plus the Alliance has to repair its fleets after the rebellion. They DID sustain huge casualties in the war: the 6th fleet lost over 75% of its men, the 3rd fleet and 13th Vas. Battlegroup lost however many pilots and capships in the retaliatory strikes in Deneb. That doesnt say anything about the other fleets/Vas. Battlegroups in A. Centauri, and the casualties sustained in the earlier year and a half of the war. The rebellion started in Polaris, and the GTVA ended up losing three more systems throughout the course of the entire war. E. Pegasi wasnt even as lost as Sirius and Regulus were, and think of how many casualties were sustained there by one fleet alone.

Lets also consider that until late in the game, the GTVA constantly underestimates the Shivan threat. Whenever Koth launches his attack on Epsilon Pegasi, the entire operation in the nebula is suspended. The portal is constantly left open, despite the several warnings to the contrary. Also, the GTVA believes they can take out the Sathanas with, IIRC, three destroyers (Psamtik, Aquitaine, and Toeris). Three destroyers, even if they attack from the rear, are utterly destroyed, and the Sathy suffers about 15% hull damage.

The Sathy suffering incredibly little damage to itself after wiping out the blockade is not as unbelievable as it seems: Attacking from the front, the Sathanas can take out about 10 destroyers (orions and hatshepsuts and hecates and typhons) and remain above 90% hull integrity.

And lets not forget the rest of the Shivan armada going through Gamma Drac. as well. Beleth anyone?

My guess is that the reason that no other capships were in system when the Sathanas was engaged was that they were: In the former NTF systems pacifying, in deeper systems getting repaired, escorting civilians and others out of Capella, or at least to safer systems farther away from entry points, or waiting to engage whatever other Shivan ships come out of G. Draconis. For them to engage the Sathanas would probably be counter-productive, and would most likely add only to the already huge casualty list. I think that GTVA command was pretty much robbed of their illusions of the ability of destroyers to stand up to the Sathanas after the blockade was torn asunder and the Phoenicia obliterated when attempting to challenge the juggernaut.

As to the beam overloading? Probably for the same reason. Beams or no beams, you cant ignore the Sathanas. After all of Command's assumptions regarding the shivans were ripped to shreds (tactical superiority-where was THAT when the fleet engaged the Ravana?), im pretty sure they would be little more careful in assuming what the ships weaknesses were. Not like that cautious attitude remained after the colossus's victory, but enough to order the colossus to possibly inflict damage to its own systems if need be.


btw, i think it was in this thread that someone pointed out that a gtva fighter pilot claims two freighters in that shivan depot raid mission. IIRC there is a transport and and a freighter. Inaccuracies like that arent surprising, especially when Cmdr. Beckett refers to a Deimos class as an AWACS ship (GTA Monitor).
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: karajorma on March 11, 2007, 06:47:33 pm
My guess is that the reason that no other capships were in system when the Sathanas was engaged was that they were: In the former NTF systems pacifying, in deeper systems getting repaired, escorting civilians and others out of Capella, or at least to safer systems farther away from entry points, or waiting to engage whatever other Shivan ships come out of G. Draconis.

While I don't disagree with you completely I think you've only got a part of the answer. I'll tell you what the majority of the GTVA fleet were doing. They were heading to Capella!

What most people seem to be forgetting is the sheer speed of the Sathanas' assault. In Speaking in Tongues the Sathanas is spotted heading to the GD jump node. In A Flaming Sword the plan to stop the Sathanas fails and fighting it moves from contingency plan to a necessity. From that moment on try working out how long actually elapses till the end of High Noon!

t=0, Sathanas arrives in Gamma Draconis
t=x (where x = time taken for the sath to recharge for an intrasystem jump), Sathanas arrives at the Capella node.
t=x+y (Where y= time required to recharge for an intersystem jump - I'm assuming it took less time than this to wipe out the fleet! :D )
t=x+y+~10 minutes Sathanas arrives in Capella and starts wiping out the fleet
t=x+y+~15 minutes Sathanas has wiped out the fleet, The Psamtick has arrived and then departed, Colossus has arrived.

So it's not like the GTVA could have gotten ships into position apart from those in Vega and EP and we already know the EP fleet was largely destroyed by the NTF already. Hell I suspect the second fleet the Sathanas decimated was partly or even mostly comprised of the Colossus' battlegroup (with the Capella fleet being the ones wiped out in GD).
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: Mobius on March 11, 2007, 07:15:51 pm
We know that High Noon wasn't FREDded that well and whoever designed it forgot to take in consideration the fact that many ships could survive the Sathanas first attack(when the number of beams remained is 1 or 0, many ships can arrive safely to the Juggernaut's port and starboard flanks, making even the LRed useless).

The point is that the might have escaped...but Command wouldn't let some warships escape if the Colossus is risking a lot. There should have been at least a cruiser attacking the Sathanas, at least when all the BFReds are down. Most part of the fleet was decimated(not a single ship if all te BFReds are down) but I don't think Command has sortied all the ships available in that moment against the Sathanas.

There are millions of civilians there, a consistent part of the fleet should have been cruising near colonized planets or civilian and military outposts. These forces should have been available in case the Colossus was getting pwned.

There's just one thing we should talk about: the fact that High Noon is too simple.
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: Mehrpack on March 11, 2007, 07:56:00 pm
Probably but once the the Sathanas proved that the node hadn't collapsed something needed to stay and guard that node wouldn't you agree?

hi,
mhh i think to this time the GTVA see the most of gamma dragonic as lost.
but is a good question.
but in this situation, i think the better way is, to give up gamma dragonics, blockade the gamma dragonic / cappella jump node on the capella size.
need some ship in the sektor help, you can send your forces easier and faster, as they have to travel to a jump node.

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Gamma rays are damaging though. An antimatter weapon puts out only gamma rays. Any other form of energy/damage you see would be through  interactions with the vaporised ships hull etc. So there's going to be a very large gamma ray source right next to the hull when a bomb hits. When it comes to bombs, with the exception of the meson bomb the GTVA uses pretty scientifically accurate weapons (i.e either stuff we could build now or stuff we can actually predict quite well). Again apart from the meson bomb :v: never invented any bombs using anything which would have largely unknown properties. So it doesn't matter if the hull can block tachyons. We have no proof that any weapons use them.

i doesnt mean gamma ray itsself, i mean that more generally.
and i would say that, if shivan generate a tachyon radition, then this radtion doesnt block by the armour and so its eaiser to detection.

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It doesn't have to block it all. Just enough to make it hard to tell from the background.

yeah, thats true.
but imho have the background radition its on muster, if i remember me correctly.

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The point though is that the Shivans had no weapons that could hurt the Colossus (Well maybe the LRed if it's not destroyed but we don't even see them turn to use it!).  If the Shivans really are that desperate to kill the Colossus surely they would have swarmed out of the Sathanas and tried using their personal beam cannons against it?

Hell even if you buy the whole "The Shivans stayed because they wanted to kill their enemy" argument if I were in command I would have told the Colossus too kill the Sathanas quickly to stop that possibility. The idea of Shivans boarding the Colossus is pretty horrific.

yeah boarding shivans are horror, but imho is there not really accident where shivans board a enemy ship.
but i think a ship can do damage to another ship too.
mhh yes, is a argument to destroy the sathanas so quickly as possible, to prevent that they rampage to drive against the collossus.

Mehrpack
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: karajorma on March 12, 2007, 04:39:08 am
hi,
mhh i think to this time the GTVA see the most of gamma dragonic as lost.
but is a good question.
but in this situation, i think the better way is, to give up gamma dragonics, blockade the gamma dragonic / cappella jump node on the capella size.
need some ship in the sektor help, you can send your forces easier and faster, as they have to travel to a jump node.


There's a small problem with that theory. High Noon is set just in front of the GD node in Capella. And sometime between Bearbaiting and High Noon the Sathanas wipes out the entire fleet guarding that end of the node.

So maybe that was a good idea but it simply didn't work.

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i doesnt mean gamma ray itsself, i mean that more generally.
and i would say that, if shivan generate a tachyon radition, then this radtion doesnt block by the armour and so its eaiser to detection.


I'm not saying that the Sathanas is easier or harder to detect. Similarly I'm not saying the Sathanas puts out Tachyons or that the armour would block them. We simply don't know about any of this stuff.
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: TrashMan on March 12, 2007, 04:58:32 am
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The GTVA tracked other ship before, including shivan ones. It kinda makes sense that the mightiest ship in the GTVA fleet would have good sensory equipment. The NTF behaviour during blockade runs (jump to a random position and then to the rally point) proves that ships can be tracked easily.


Actually it doesn't. The As I pointed out before those rally points were found by recon. Not subspace tracking.

IIRC the Belisarius is the only ship that is definitely subspace tracked in FS2.

Ahem..that's becoause the ships didn't jump directly to the really point. Ships breaking trough the blockade jump to point A, B, C, D, E (or whatever) where they can be tracked. As soon as their jump-drives are cherged tehy jump again - if there's no GTVA around ship they jump to the rally point, if there is one they jump to another random location to shake off the persuit.

The the Collie would easily follow the Sath for the FIRST jump at leat...


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Run the mission. What do you see? The Sathanas. The Gamma Draconis node behind it and the Colossus. It's pretty obvious that the either the Colossus arrived after the Sathanas did or for some reason Command let it hang back and just sit there while the Sathanas chewed its way through the rest of the fleet.

So I'd say it's pretty reasonable to say that the Sathanas will be able to jump before the Colossus can.

(Actually the positioning of the Sathanas does rather beg the question of how the hell the Psamtik managed to get into the system to launch it's fighters without begin attacked by the Sathanas. :D )

The positioning in the mission is quite strange, especially since we know that the Colossus was in GD before the incursion, and moved to Capela later. If it was in GD at the time the Sath was there, surely it would bolster the blockade.


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And the Collie would be well informed of the Saths status by the time it arrives given that node-travel takes time and would adjust it's strategy accordingly. Aslo, it had bombers allready in the air ready to take out the remaining beams (if any).


What bombers? What mission are you playing?! The only bombers in the mission are Alpha wing and they're vasudan bombers from the Psamtik!

again another logical hole. The Collie has 60 fighter & bomber wings. It's fighterbay was operational in High Noon. Why the hell send bombers from the Psamtik and not launch a single craft from the Collie itself?

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Let's not forget that no beams destroyed = failed outcome. But even that is no big problem given the bombers. Hell, I can take out a beam cannon just with trebs before the fighters the sath launches get half way to me...

Again. What bombers?

You realise you do fly a wing of bombers in High Noon, don't you? The Sath launches only fighters...

 
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The Sath surely lost some of it's fighter complement (a lot actually) and can't re-supply in Capella, not to mention that there aren't any shivan shipyards where tehy could repair the thing.

And who say the Colossus had a full complement? The Colossus had just finished destroying the NTF when the Sathanas was first spotted. Surely it too lost some of its fighters.

Just? There are 3-4  missions between the NTF destruction and the Sath vs. Collie fight. Capella - a industialized and friendly system was just next door - sending a new complement of fighters and bombers to the Collie would be a peace of cake.
Which also reminds me - did hte collie actually launch a single fighter during the NTF campaign? It just seems to pulverize ships on it's own.

Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: karajorma on March 12, 2007, 08:32:45 am
Ahem..that's becoause the ships didn't jump directly to the really point. Ships breaking trough the blockade jump to point A, B, C, D, E (or whatever) where they can be tracked. As soon as their jump-drives are cherged tehy jump again - if there's no GTVA around ship they jump to the rally point, if there is one they jump to another random location to shake off the persuit.

The the Collie would easily follow the Sath for the FIRST jump at leat...


My bad. I misread and thought you were saying the rally points were found through subspace tracking. However that still doesn't change the basic point that we have no proof that GTVA ships can subspace track Shivan ships. The GTVA familiarity with the NTF ships is likely to make them a lot easier to track than unknown ships.

And again even if the Sath could be tracked to the location of the first jump what would there have been that could engage it?

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The positioning in the mission is quite strange, especially since we know that the Colossus was in GD before the incursion, and moved to Capela later. If it was in GD at the time the Sath was there, surely it would bolster the blockade.

What the hell are you on about? The Colossus is obviously in Gamma Draconis during Endgame. The next we hear of it is during A Flaming Sword

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Command has begun the process of evacuating the two hundred fifty million civilians inhabiting Capella, the largest exodus since the Great War. The Colossus will remain in that system to engage the Sathanas should we fail.

We have no idea when it moved there but there aren't many missions between the two so my guess would be that immediately after Endgame the Colossus went back to Capella. i.e before the Sathanas was discovered.

Nonetheless I still don't have a clue what point you were trying to make with any of this.  :confused: The positioning doesn't seem that strange to me. The Sathanas jumps in, wipes out the blockade at the node and then the Colossus jumps in to attack it. What's strange about that?

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again another logical hole. The Collie has 60 fighter & bomber wings. It's fighterbay was operational in High Noon. Why the hell send bombers from the Psamtik and not launch a single craft from the Collie itself?


Cause the Colossus didn't have 60  fighter & bomber wings by then. I'll get to why further down.

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You realise you do fly a wing of bombers in High Noon, don't you? The Sath launches only fighters...


Oh so you aren't referring to the same non-existent bombers from the Colossus? My bad. I thought you were on about them again.
 
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Just? There are 3-4  missions between the NTF destruction and the Sath vs. Collie fight. Capella - a industialized and friendly system was just next door - sending a new complement of fighters and bombers to the Collie would be a peace of cake.


Okay. Lets count off the holes in that argument.



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Which also reminds me - did hte collie actually launch a single fighter during the NTF campaign? It just seems to pulverize ships on it's own.

We only see a small fraction of the overall NTF campaign. But in the missions we do see it never launches a single ship. I grepped the entire mission set for $Arrival Anchor: Colossus and the arrival cues for Gamma, Delta, Kappa and Iota wings in Their Finest Hour was the only hit.
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: aldo_14 on March 12, 2007, 11:25:51 am
That juggernaught ain't gonna sit there forever doing nothing......  and what makes you think the Shivans wouldn't send reinforcements if it was in genuine trouble?

Even if they were going to send in reinforcments, The Sathanas would still be screwed, since they would have to come out of the nebula, through Gamma Draconis, and into Capella. The only other support ship that could be in the area would be the Beleth, and that should be destroyed anyway.

The entire GTVA blockade was decimated by the Sathanas; even if we assume no other Shivan vessels broke through during the time, there's no logical reason for them not doing so in the aftermath given that the GTVA defense was torn to pieces.

If I were Command, I wouldn't risk the Collie.
Even if the Sath would to jump out all the advantages are on the GTVA side - the Sath is in hostile territory, some GTVA ships were in-systems, other were on theri way, not to mention the sheer number of fighters/bombers the GTVA prolly has on the planets.

The Sath surely lost some of it's fighter complement (a lot actually) and can't re-supply in Capella, not to mention that there aren't any shivan shipyards where tehy could repair the thing.

But realisticly, the Collie would have launched all the bombers it had (i'd guess around 30 wings or so) and swarmed the sath as it entered Capella, then come close and finish it off...

a) hostile territory is only hostile until you capture it.  There's no attrition damage from sitting in formerly-hostile space rebuilding, repairing, or setting up supply depots for the next battlegroup.
b) the Colossus likely had to provide fighter and bomber cover for the entire system (much like a destroyer).  Moreso, what makes you think the Sathanas hadn't used it's own fighter and bomber complement to draw away the Colossus'?
c)you're making a massive - and rather ridiculous - assumption about the fighters and bombers station on-planet.  We have no evidence that atmospheric fighters such as that (if they even exist) are space-capable or combat-effective.  AFAIK the only ship conclusively shown in-atmo was a large Satis (?) freighter escaping Vasuda prime.  A similar assumption is being made about how many fighters and bombers the Sath had left.... in fact, if we want to make assumptions for the sake of argument, why not assume the Sathanas has the capability to manufacture fighters and bombers?
d) why wouldn't the Shivans bring in logistics support for the Sathanas, once it's secure in Capella.  I mean, if the GTVA are too scared to even deploy the Colossus, the Shivans would surely be pretty comfortable in their position.  And why would the Shivans need shipyards?
e) what makes you think the Colossus hadn't sent its bomber complement to assist the blockade at the GD node beforehand?
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: TrashMan on March 12, 2007, 01:35:17 pm
The Sathy suffering incredibly little damage to itself after wiping out the blockade is not as unbelievable as it seems: Attacking from the front, the Sathanas can take out about 10 destroyers (orions and hatshepsuts and hecates and typhons) and remain above 90% hull integrity.

N.F.W.

There's no way a Sathanas can simply waltz trough a blockade consisting of several destroyers (and god knows how many fighters/bombers + smaller warships) and appear 15 minutes later with 100% hull integrity.


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t=0, Sathanas arrives in Gamma Draconis
t=x (where x = time taken for the sath to recharge for an intrasystem jump), Sathanas arrives at the Capella node.
t=x+y (Where y= time required to recharge for an intersystem jump - I'm assuming it took less time than this to wipe out the fleet! Big grin )
t=x+y+~10 minutes Sathanas arrives in Capella and starts wiping out the fleet
t=x+y+~15 minutes Sathanas has wiped out the fleet, The Psamtick has arrived and then departed, Colossus has arrived.

Ahem... Wans't te blockade set at the Gamma-Draconis side of the node? When you jump in the Phoenicia is the only ship left and the sath jumps trought the node to Capella and you follow after it a few minutes later...
I recall no blockade from the Capella side of the node or surely the Collie would be part of it..
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: TrashMan on March 12, 2007, 01:55:21 pm
My bad. I misread and thought you were saying the rally points were found through subspace tracking. However that still doesn't change the basic point that we have no proof that GTVA ships can subspace track Shivan ships. The GTVA familiarity with the NTF ships is likely to make them a lot easier to track than unknown ships.

And again even if the Sath could be tracked to the location of the first jump what would there have been that could engage it?

1. The GTVA tracked the Lucifer, so I fail to see why they couldn't track other shivan ships. After all, they use subspace they same way we do.
 
2. The Collie could persue, and what other ship could join in is unknown, as we don't know all the ships in Capella.


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We have no idea when it moved there but there aren't many missions between the two so my guess would be that immediately after Endgame the Colossus went back to Capella. i.e before the Sathanas was discovered.

Nonetheless I still don't have a clue what point you were trying to make with any of this.  :confused: The positioning doesn't seem that strange to me. The Sathanas jumps in, wipes out the blockade at the node and then the Colossus jumps in to attack it. What's strange about that?

My point? Colossuss waits in Capella with jump dirves charged, Sath jump in and has to re-charge them. Thus, Collie is ready for a persuit and doens't need to wait for drives to charge.


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  • We know that the Colossus goes back to Capella some time between Endgame and A Flaming Sword. We also know that events move quickly from the time that Speaking In Tongues starts until High Noon. So 3-4 missions is not a huge amount of time when Speaking In Tongues, A Flaming Sword, Bearbaiting and High Noon all take place in a couple of hours.
  • It's only at the end of a A Flaming Swordthat it becomes certain that a second line of defence is needed. Before that the Colossus may have been presumed able to resupply at leisure. So it only really becomes an emergency in the last couple of hours before High Noon.
  • Why would Capella have 60 fighter and bomber wings sitting about doing nothing anyway? 3rd Fleet headquarters not withstanding 60 fighter and bomber wings is a fair chunk of the GTVA's combat power. Why are you assuming that there would have to be that many available?
  • Even if they have the fighters who says that they have the pilots to fly them?
  • Even if the Colossus did resupply who is to say that the complement wasn't wiped out by the Sathanas' fighter and bomber complement? We have no canon numbers on what that was. It could easily be enough to wipe out the blockade and everything the Colossus launched at it before the Colossus jumped in to challenge it personally

And just how long would it take to re-ssuply a ships in FS2? If the Sath can traverse 3 systems in a matter of hours, so can a freighter/fighter.
Capella being a pupulated system would surely have some fighters/bombers stationed on the planet.
Just count the number of fighter planes on Earth today - tens of thousands. I'm sure Capella had at least a 100.

Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: karajorma on March 12, 2007, 02:58:38 pm
Ahem... Wans't te blockade set at the Gamma-Draconis side of the node? When you jump in the Phoenicia is the only ship left and the sath jumps trought the node to Capella and you follow after it a few minutes later...
I recall no blockade from the Capella side of the node or surely the Collie would be part of it..

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The Satahanas entered the Capella system and obliterated the line of defense we had established to intercept it. We now have no choice but to send in the Colossus

Wrong on both counts. There was a blockade in Gamma Draconis though. It is destroyed before Bearbaiting not High Noon

1. The GTVA tracked the Lucifer, so I fail to see why they couldn't track other shivan ships. After all, they use subspace they same way we do.


Lucifer != Sathanas. For a start the Sathanas may be newer (by up to 8000 years on some estimates). The Sathanas doesn't have the five rector subsystems (which may make tracking easier). And the Lucifer was only canonically tracked during an intersystem jump. I don't see any proof that the Lucifer was ever tracked during an intrasystem jump at all.
 
Quote
2. The Collie could persue, and what other ship could join in is unknown, as we don't know all the ships in Capella.

Exactly my point. We don't have any proof whatsoever that there is anything else left in Capella other than the Colossus and the Psamtik. And the Colossus would still have to recharge its jump engines before it could follow.


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My point? Colossuss waits in Capella with jump dirves charged, Sath jump in and has to re-charge them. Thus, Collie is ready for a persuit and doens't need to wait for drives to charge.


My point. That is complete bollocks which I disproved earlier in the thread. The quote above together with the positioning of the Sathanas in High Noon shows that the Colossus jumped in to attack the Sathanas and not the other way around.

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And just how long would it take to re-ssuply a ships in FS2? If the Sath can traverse 3 systems in a matter of hours, so can a freighter/fighter.
Capella being a pupulated system would surely have some fighters/bombers stationed on the planet.
Just count the number of fighter planes on Earth today - tens of thousands. I'm sure Capella had at least a 100.

If Capella can station ships somewhere other than a capship why would they bother resupplying the Colossus in the first place? Just launch everything from where ever they have it?

Simple answer is that they don't do that.
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: TrashMan on March 13, 2007, 06:36:45 am
Command is utterly dumb. If the Collie was in Capella why wasn't it part of the blockade? With him there the Sath wouldn' have survived (especially since the player relieves the sath of a few beam cannons)

***

AFAIK - a ship selects it's destination before the jump and then the jump drives "create" a opening. By scanning that opening one can detect where a ship will go.
and GTVA does track shivan ships - remeber the Deamon that jumps in after the Sath leaves? Command informs you it's coming your way and they couldn't possibly know that unless they were tracking him.

***

 Are you sure the Collie jumped in and that it wasn't waiting there? Besides, by the time he and the sath actually close the distance and start to duke it out a whole fleet can re-charge it's jump drives....
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: karajorma on March 13, 2007, 10:43:44 am
Command is utterly dumb. If the Collie was in Capella why wasn't it part of the blockade? With him there the Sath wouldn' have survived (especially since the player relieves the sath of a few beam cannons)


It depends on briefing you're actually getting. If you destroy all the forward beams you never hear about a second blockade.

But yeah I tend to agree. Wouldn't have made for a good mission though. Not that High Noon is a great mission anyway.

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AFAIK - a ship selects it's destination before the jump and then the jump drives "create" a opening. By scanning that opening one can detect where a ship will go.

Complete conjecture. There's no proof of that. I tend to suspect it is something like that but there's no proof that it's not done in some other way.

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and GTVA does track shivan ships - remeber the Deamon that jumps in after the Sath leaves? Command informs you it's coming your way and they couldn't possibly know that unless they were tracking him.


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Gamma Draconis is a remote, uninhabited system discovered shortly before the outbreak of the Great War. The system has no planets and no viable resources.

Where the **** else was it going to go? :p The game never says that they've tracked the Beleth and in fact if you look at the mission in question there's a lot of evidence that it wasn't subspace tracking responsible for that.

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Well done, Alpha. The Thebes will be in system momentarily to secure the node. Rearm and repair quickly. More enemy warships are inbound. Gamma wing deployed.

Sent when the Sathanas departs. If this message is an indication of subspace tracking it's a pretty bad one. Only the Beleth ever arrives! Seems more likely that more warships were present and command guessed that they would jump to the node.

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Alpha wing just resolved a tactical engagement, Thebes. Recon has sited a Demon-class destroyer, designation Beleth. The warship will be upon us momentarily.

Note no word of tracking and that it was recon who spotted it. Recon is unlikely to be capships so unless you're saying fighters have subspace tracking it seems unlikely that tracking is at work here

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A Demon-class destroyer has jumped in. Command is well-informed.

Maybe I'm being picky but how is command well informed for being able to read the coordinates off a subspace tracking device? Now if they have taken a guess that when the Beleth jumped it would be heading to that location I'd say it qualifies a lot better.


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Are you sure the Collie jumped in and that it wasn't waiting there? Besides, by the time he and the sath actually close the distance and start to duke it out a whole fleet can re-charge it's jump drives....

Cause dumb as Command are, deliberately jumping the Colossus within sight of the blockade but far away enough to not be able to fire it's guns is a whole quantum level of stupidity above anything else we've seen from them.
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: aldo_14 on March 13, 2007, 10:57:20 am
Command is utterly dumb. If the Collie was in Capella why wasn't it part of the blockade? With him there the Sath wouldn' have survived (especially since the player relieves the sath of a few beam cannons)

Because command did not want to risk its most powerful, valuable warship until absolutely necessary to stop the Sathanas.  Hell, the Colossus only defeated the Sathanas thanks to the efforts of countless warships (in the blockade), and the player damaging its beam turrets.

Also, if the Beleth was observed escorting the Sathanas, then it stands to reason it'd arrive more or less with it.
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: Goober5000 on March 13, 2007, 01:47:00 pm
Quote
Pilots, the NTC Alba has run our blockade of the Capella jump node. We are tracking the vessel to your rallying point. The Alba will emerge from subspace momentarily.
Yarr.
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: TrashMan on March 14, 2007, 04:33:26 am
GD is a big system.
Just by observation there's no way you can tell where the ship will jump. Who knows where the Beleth could have gone too - it's not like there weren't any GTVA ship left in GD for it to pray upon.

Besides, who sez subspace tracking requires massive sensors or uber-tech. It's probably quite simple, just the principles behind it had to be understood first. Recon flight can see a warship jumping, but without tracking there's no way they can tell where it will jump to. Command was SURE where it will go. They didn't say it might jump in, they said it WILL jump in.


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Because command did not want to risk its most powerful, valuable warship until absolutely necessary to stop the Sathanas.  Hell, the Colossus only defeated the Sathanas thanks to the efforts of countless warships (in the blockade), and the player damaging its beam turrets.[\quote]

Command would know the status of hte Sath's beams long before it arrived in Capella (given that it takes 10-15 minutes for node travel). That's more than enough time to remove the blockade if it's too strong or to bring in the Colossuss.
Either way, concetrated firepower is logicly and tacticly more sound than spreading your forces - especially is the Sath is as big as a threat as some claimed command thought it was.
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: karajorma on March 14, 2007, 05:09:50 am
GD is a big system.
Just by observation there's no way you can tell where the ship will jump. Who knows where the Beleth could have gone too - it's not like there weren't any GTVA ship left in GD for it to pray upon.


We have no firm data on either numbers nor disposition of GTVA forces in the system. The only ships we know are present for certain are the Psamtik, Thebes and Phonecia (presuming it lived!) IIRC.

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Besides, who sez subspace tracking requires massive sensors or uber-tech. It's probably quite simple, just the principles behind it had to be understood first. Recon flight can see a warship jumping, but without tracking there's no way they can tell where it will jump to. Command was SURE where it will go. They didn't say it might jump in, they said it WILL jump in.

They also said other warships would jump in. What happened to them? If Command did subspace track the Beleth why did they screw up with the others?
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: TrashMan on March 14, 2007, 06:31:37 am
What other warships?
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: aldo_14 on March 14, 2007, 06:56:10 am
Command would know the status of hte Sath's beams long before it arrived in Capella (given that it takes 10-15 minutes for node travel). That's more than enough time to remove the blockade if it's too strong or to bring in the Colossuss.
Either way, concetrated firepower is logicly and tacticly more sound than spreading your forces - especially is the Sath is as big as a threat as some claimed command thought it was.

They did concentrate their firepower.  That's what a blockade is, remember?  Or are you suggesting they risk the Colossus first?  What happens if the Sathanas destroys the Colossus?
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: karajorma on March 14, 2007, 07:38:42 am
What other warships?

The ones in the quote above.
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: TrashMan on March 15, 2007, 06:16:09 am
Quote
They did concentrate their firepower.  That's what a blockade is, remember?  Or are you suggesting they risk the Colossus first?  What happens if the Sathanas destroys the Colossus?[\quote]

If they did the Sath would have recived some[\i] damage. It doesn't stop after a fight, just continues on. So basicly, he went trough 2 blockades within 20 minutes and sustained NO damage whatsoever... You can't really repair a hull of something that big in 20 minutes...


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The ones in the quote above. [\quote]

The only one specificly mentioned in the Beleth.

If you're refering to this:
"Well done, Alpha. The Thebes will be in system momentarily to secure the node. Rearm and repair quickly. More enemy warships are inbound. Gamma wing deployed."

It can very well mean inbound to allied positionswithin the system, not this specific one. It is also possible other enemy warship will arrive later (after you departed)
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: karajorma on March 15, 2007, 09:28:03 am
How do you explain the fact that they still haven't arrived 5 minutes later then? A subspace jump does not take 5 minutes. Yet the other ships still haven't arrived well after the Beleth is toasted.

You're contradicting your earlier argument Trashman. If as you say that message refers to ships that would arrive after you have departed that is conclusive proof that Command knew those ships were inbound without using subspace tracking. Which means that your argument that you have conclusive proof of subspace tracking of shivans in FS2 is also out of the window.
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: TrashMan on March 15, 2007, 10:43:07 am
It doesn't. That was one possible explanation..

the other one - the one you so conveniately ignored - it that they didn't jump to your position, but rather somewhere else in-system.

"Well done, Alpha. The Thebes will be in system momentarily to secure the node. Rearm and repair quickly. More enemy warships are inbound. Gamma wing deployed."  - this doesn't specify where tehy are headed. Could very well mean that multiple enemy warship have just entered GD and are moving against GTVA positions.

Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: karajorma on March 15, 2007, 12:52:07 pm
Except that is so ridiculous I didn't even think it needed explanation.

Why would the player give a damn about Shivan vessels leaping out to other locations? Surely the Beleth a large warship which according to you, command knows is headed directly for the player would be a much more important thing to notify the player of. Why would anyone at the node appreciate such a useless comment as "There are more enemy ships about but although we're subspace tracking them we're not going to tell you which ones are going to your location"

Regardless of that fact you can't prove that command didn't simply guess where the Beleth was going so your entire point is moot anyway.
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: Mobius on March 15, 2007, 01:52:52 pm
I don't understand a thing in this mess but I can say just one thing:

Karajorma is right, and the others should abandon the discussion! :lol:
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: Snail on March 15, 2007, 02:56:16 pm
of course...  :doubt:
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: Mobius on March 15, 2007, 03:30:23 pm
Then tell me who is right :P
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: TrashMan on March 16, 2007, 03:20:14 am
Except that is so ridiculous I didn't even think it needed explanation.

Why would the player give a damn about Shivan vessels leaping out to other locations? Surely the Beleth a large warship which according to you, command knows is headed directly for the player would be a much more important thing to notify the player of. Why would anyone at the node appreciate such a useless comment as "There are more enemy ships about but although we're subspace tracking them we're not going to tell you which ones are going to your location"

Regardless of that fact you can't prove that command didn't simply guess where the Beleth was going so your entire point is moot anyway.

LOL! Who's skiping on the facts now?

Why would a player give a damn about other shivan vessels in the system? Indeed. Why would he give a damn about the defeat of the 6th fleet or the fact that the Collie destroyed the NTD Andronicus? Why would he give a damn about Bosh being intercepted at the portal?
Could it be...*gasp* situational awareness...you now, a bit more info that just what going on 3 feet from you?

And do you even listen to yourself? Command DID tell you the Beleth will jump in momentarily. They weren't guessing they knew.

So think of it this way - comamand informs the forces that more shivan warshipd have entred GD. At the point where you got that info they prolly don't know where they're heading yet.
As soon as recon traked the Beleth they tell you it's jumping to your position.

Redicolous? Hardly... Actually, I find your post redicolous...
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: karajorma on March 16, 2007, 04:33:07 am
Redicolous? Hardly... Actually, I find your post redicolous...

Then you need to learn to spell it :p

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Why would a player give a damn about other shivan vessels in the system? Indeed. Why would he give a damn about the defeat of the 6th fleet or the fact that the Collie destroyed the NTD Andronicus? Why would he give a damn about Bosh being intercepted at the portal?
Could it be...*gasp* situational awareness...you now, a bit more info that just what going on 3 feet from you?


Command briefings and other such messages however do not confuse the player about what is going on. There is a difference between situational awareness and screaming "Enemy warships are on the way! When they aren't on the way to the player at all."

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And do you even listen to yourself? Command DID tell you the Beleth will jump in momentarily. They weren't guessing they knew.

As I said before you've got no proof that wasn't simply because there was no where else for the Beleth to go.

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So think of it this way - comamand informs the forces that more shivan warshipd have entred GD. At the point where you got that info they prolly don't know where they're heading yet.
As soon as recon traked the Beleth they tell you it's jumping to your position.


That's one possible interpretation. An equally likely one is that they said more ships were on the way because they knew that shivan ships had arrived in GD and said the Beleth was on it's way as soon as it jumped out (While the rest of the ships stayed at the GD-Nebula node). If you're going to claim that the Beleth is definative proof of Command using subspace tracking on Shivan ships you need to prove that my scenario didn't happen.

You have to conclusively prove that the Beleth was subspace tracked. I only need prove that it could have been either subspace tracking or a guess to win this one. As I said before it's not my fault that you decided to get into an argument where you have to conclusively prove your points while I just have to give possibilities. So prove it. Or give up.
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: Snail on March 16, 2007, 01:38:51 pm
I think that subspace tracking is difficult during the GW, but later becomes commonplace. Remember, the Ancient cutscene says "In subspace, they cannot use their shields. And into subspace, they can be tracked."

This implies it is new information that they can be tracked, unless they were just stating the obvious. Or something.
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: karajorma on March 16, 2007, 02:25:56 pm
That was an intersystem jump that was tracked in FS1 though. They could be a lot easier to track.
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: Mobius on March 16, 2007, 03:08:21 pm
22,000!

I think that subspace tracking is difficult during the GW, but later becomes commonplace. Remember, the Ancient cutscene says "In subspace, they cannot use their shields. And into subspace, they can be tracked."

This implies it is new information that they can be tracked, unless they were just stating the obvious. Or something.

It was from FS1, so we can't be sure.
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: Snail on March 17, 2007, 05:33:34 am
Well it is not contradicted or supported in FS2 so it stands to reason it is still canon.
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: karajorma on March 17, 2007, 05:38:58 am
I don't doubt that the GTVA can subspace track GTVA ships. I don't doubt that they can track the Lucifer during an intersystem jump. My point is that there is no proof in either direction that this isn't the limit of what they can do with it.
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: TrashMan on March 17, 2007, 07:32:30 am
Why couldn't they track shivan ship?

The tracking tech is there for some time, shivan electronics and engines have been studied by the GTVA also for some time. If they can track NTF ships why would tehy have troublew with shivan ones?

Look how long it took them to track and target shivan ships on radar. The GTVA retrofitted Dragons and Maras' which are stated as the best shivan craft..and you can't do that without a good knowledge of shivan tech.
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: karajorma on March 17, 2007, 08:44:32 am
Why couldn't they track shivan ship?

Why should they?

The Shivans are masters of subspace. Why shouldn't they be able to stop more primitive species from being able to track their ships?

And don't bring up the Lucifer as it's 32 years since they tracked it, the shivans had no reason to think the GTVA had the tech to track it and it may have been an 8000 year old design anyway.
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: Mobius on March 17, 2007, 04:28:58 pm
Well it is not contradicted or supported in FS2 so it stands to reason it is still canon.

It's not contradicted because Ancients are mentioned in FS2 only a few times, and only by Terrans.
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: Snail on March 17, 2007, 05:17:18 pm
It's not contradicted because Ancients are mentioned in FS2 only a few times, and only by Terrans.

What is meant by 'only by Terrans?'

What is not contradicted in FS2 is still canon since it's information in FS1, which is still a part of the same universe.
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: aldo_14 on March 17, 2007, 07:09:38 pm
Why couldn't they track shivan ship?

Why should they?

The Shivans are masters of subspace. Why shouldn't they be able to stop more primitive species from being able to track their ships?

And don't bring up the Lucifer as it's 32 years since they tracked it, the shivans had no reason to think the GTVA had the tech to track it and it may have been an 8000 year old design anyway.

Moreso, the Lucifer was only tracked using Ancient technology that was designed to track it (or some similar shielded vessel); there's no reason to assume that the GTVA has mastered that technology for tracking all possible Shivan craft (particularly given the new variety and technological level of FS2 Shivans vessels versus FS1) opposed to simply reusing the Ancients specific work  Plus, the Lucifer was a rather unique vessel, and there's no way of knowing whether its unique characteristics were what allowed the Ancients to track it.
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: Agent_Koopa on March 17, 2007, 11:32:49 pm
Why couldn't they track shivan ship?

Why should they?

The Shivans are masters of subspace. Why shouldn't they be able to stop more primitive species from being able to track their ships?

And don't bring up the Lucifer as it's 32 years since they tracked it, the shivans had no reason to think the GTVA had the tech to track it and it may have been an 8000 year old design anyway.

A master of juggling still has to make the balls fly through the air. Again, there's no evidence as to how jump tracking works. It could work simply by looking at the warp or by tracking the ship itself. If it's the former then any ship can be tracked if something is there to observe it leaving. If it's the latter it's trickier and possibly can be guarded against.


Moreso, the Lucifer was only tracked using Ancient technology that was designed to track it (or some similar shielded vessel); there's no reason to assume that the GTVA has mastered that technology for tracking all possible Shivan craft (particularly given the new variety and technological level of FS2 Shivans vessels versus FS1) opposed to simply reusing the Ancients specific work  Plus, the Lucifer was a rather unique vessel, and there's no way of knowing whether its unique characteristics were what allowed the Ancients to track it.

Then how can the Terrans track the Belisarius? Are you implying that the GTVA developed subspace tracking on their own?
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: karajorma on March 18, 2007, 04:35:33 am
A master of juggling still has to make the balls fly through the air. Again, there's no evidence as to how jump tracking works. It could work simply by looking at the warp or by tracking the ship itself. If it's the former then any ship can be tracked if something is there to observe it leaving. If it's the latter it's trickier and possibly can be guarded against.

Here's a point I thought up after posting last time that I found rather interesting. We only ever see subspace tracking used 4 times in total AFAIK.

The Lucifer is tracked through subspace on the way to Earth. This was an intersystem jump and probably tracked something different from the others (after all who really needed tracking to know where the Lucifer was going? It was pretty obvious).

The NTCv Belisarius on the way to it's show down with the Psamtik.
The Iceni to the Sirius node in Deneb
The NTC Alba at the NTF Rallying point.

What's interesting is that although we know (or suspect) that there were GTVA ships present at the departure point in all 3 intrasystem jumps what no one seems to have considered is that there were GTVA ships at the destination points too. So what if subspace tracking only works when you have a subspace tracking capable ship at both endpoints?

Not only does that fit all the data it gives a very good explanation why Command couldn't simply say "Oh who cares if the Sathanas jumps. We'll just track it!" If it didn't happen to jump in right next to a terran ship capable of subspace tracking then it would be quite successfully hidden until the GTVA could find it.
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: TrashMan on March 18, 2007, 09:35:45 am
Nah...the subspace rift on the exit point only opens exaclty before the ship arrives, not when it departs it's previous location.

Also, when a ship is comming it's allways command who tells you that (and it got that info from the ships near hte blockade). If the Psamtik could detect incoming ships why doesn't it inform you of that? It's the same in every other situation - you are never informed by a ship that's near you.

Also, the thing about the Beleth having no where else to go - that's pure rubbish. GD is a big system - it vcould have jumped anywhere, attacked any otehr GTVA ships in the system. OR it could have jumped on the other side of the system and start launching fihgter/bomber attacks - no need to come up close and personal without an abdundant fihgtercover.
You might also notice that it doesn't follow hte Sathanas - if you don't destroy it it will jmp out, but not at the node - thus it jumps somewhere else in the system.

you also might notice the working of the messages sent by command - there is no doubt or insecurity about where the Beleth will go. That's not guesswork.

Quote
Maybe I'm being picky but how is command well informed for being able to read the coordinates off a subspace tracking device? Now if they have taken a guess that when the Beleth jumped it would be heading to that location I'd say it qualifies a lot better.

How does taking a guess qualify as being well informed? Getting a lot of accurate information (from any source) is being well-informed.
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: Snail on March 18, 2007, 09:56:07 am
Maybe, just maybe, it's a very small possibility, that the Beleth was going to support the Sathanas? (note sarcasm) ::)
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: karajorma on March 18, 2007, 10:11:25 am
Nah...the subspace rift on the exit point only opens exaclty before the ship arrives, not when it departs it's previous location.

Completely irrelevant to my point.

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Also, when a ship is comming it's allways command who tells you that (and it got that info from the ships near hte blockade). If the Psamtik could detect incoming ships why doesn't it inform you of that? It's the same in every other situation - you are never informed by a ship that's near you.


Who says that it is the Psamtik alone doing the detection though? Perhaps intrasystem tracking is reliant on having two ships and detecting the differences in subspace between them. It could work like this. A ship jumps out and command notifies all ships to go to active tracking mode. Command then detects the differences between all the locations it has ships and uses that to generate a vector for where it thinks the enemy ship is going.

It could easily be that if you don't have a ship within a set distance of the arrival location your readings simply aren't good enough and therefore tracking is useless. As the central node in the tracking net it would be Command who knew where the ship was going. The Psamtik's data would be completely useless on its own.

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Also, the thing about the Beleth having no where else to go - that's pure rubbish. GD is a big system - it vcould have jumped anywhere, attacked any otehr GTVA ships in the system. OR it could have jumped on the other side of the system and start launching fihgter/bomber attacks - no need to come up close and personal without an abdundant fihgtercover.

And now I use your own argument against you. When have we ever seen a Shivan vessel jump away in order to launch fighters? Your argument is that the Shivans are such xenophobes that the sathanas would never run away from a fight except to go to another one so why on Earth would they do something as unlikely as jumping away from a battle to launch fighter cover?

And if you're saying they'd do that, jumping away to repair beam cannons suddenly becomes a lot more likely doesn't it?

As for there being other places to go. Why? Why on Earth would Command have ships in GD that weren't guarding either node? They put everything they had into the blockades.

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You might also notice that it doesn't follow hte Sathanas - if you don't destroy it it will jmp out, but not at the node - thus it jumps somewhere else in the system.

Haven't got time to test that in game but from the looks of it in the mission file V just missed the centre of the node by about 700m. That should still be just within the jump node. The debriefing certainly speaks against your theory that it didn't jump to Capella. Look at the recommendation for the Beleth.

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Disabling the engines of the Beleth would keep it in system.


Seems like the Beleth isn't in system. Are you seriously telling me that command are telling you that it's returned to the nebula?

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you also might notice the working of the messages sent by command - there is no doubt or insecurity about where the Beleth will go. That's not guesswork.


Command frequently are certain about things that were ****ing idiotic to be certain about. Besides if as I said there is nowhere else to go they could be pretty certain that it was going there. It's you who keeps insisting that there were other places for it to go. There quite easily could have been nowhere else for it to go.

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How does taking a guess qualify as being well informed? Getting a lot of accurate information (from any source) is being well-informed.

But this wasn't a random-assed guess. You want to make out it was. But I'm saying that Command had logically figured out that there was nothing else of value to the Shivans in the system and that their only target of interest would be the Capella node. If that turned out to be true I would quite happily say that it was an example of Command being well informed.

The Vasudan sounded very impressed that Command had got it right. Reading data off of a subspace tracker is not impressive.
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: TrashMan on March 18, 2007, 11:29:25 am
Nah...the subspace rift on the exit point only opens exaclty before the ship arrives, not when it departs it's previous location.

Completely irrelevant to my point.

Quite relevant.
If the subspace rift opens only seconds before the ship arrives, then what use is the data from the ship at the arrival point. By the time it gets any data at all the enemy ships is allready there - you can tell visually.

Secodnly you onyl get informed of tracked ships when some of your forces are present at hte arrival point for quite logical reasons - becouse you're there. If command tracked a enemy ship and determined that it will emerge near Capella 3, but you're stationed near the Caplella node, why on earth would it tell you that, given that you won't attack it in that mission? 


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Also, the thing about the Beleth having no where else to go - that's pure rubbish. GD is a big system - it vcould have jumped anywhere, attacked any otehr GTVA ships in the system. OR it could have jumped on the other side of the system and start launching fihgter/bomber attacks - no need to come up close and personal without an abdundant fihgtercover.

And now I use your own argument against you. When have we ever seen a Shivan vessel jump away in order to launch fighters? Your argument is that the Shivans are such xenophobes that the sathanas would never run away from a fight except to go to another one so why on Earth would they do something as unlikely as jumping away from a battle to launch fighter cover?

And if you're saying they'd do that, jumping away to repair beam cannons suddenly becomes a lot more likely doesn't it?

As for there being other places to go. Why? Why on Earth would Command have ships in GD that weren't guarding either node? They put everything they had into the blockades.

1. Jumping from the node to point B, preparing for an attack and then proceeding to attack point C is very different from attacking point C, and then jumping out to point B before returing to C.
One is getting ready to conduct an attack, the other one is runnign away.

2. Sathanas broke trough the blockade - but that doesn't mean that every single ship is destroyed - some could have escaped - for instance the Phoenicia! Those surviving ships would be easy prey for the Beleth.
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: karajorma on March 18, 2007, 01:56:53 pm
Quite relevant.
If the subspace rift opens only seconds before the ship arrives, then what use is the data from the ship at the arrival point. By the time it gets any data at all the enemy ships is allready there - you can tell visually.

Nope irrelevant. There are other kinds of effects on subspace beyond the opening of a jump hole. Who are you to say that there aren't minute changes in subspace just prior to the opening of a jump point? How can you possibly know that they can't be tracked?


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Secodnly you onyl get informed of tracked ships when some of your forces are present at hte arrival point for quite logical reasons - becouse you're there. If command tracked a enemy ship and determined that it will emerge near Capella 3, but you're stationed near the Caplella node, why on earth would it tell you that, given that you won't attack it in that mission?


Weren't you arguing about situational awareness a few posts back?


But lets ignore that and mention the point that apart from those 3 occasions pretty much every single other time that a ship jumps out and is later tracked down Command mentions recon as having done it. There isn't a single case in either game where Command mentions tracking a ship with subspace tracking where there weren't GTVA ships at the arrival location, even in cases where this would be incredibly useful. And I'm not talking about just in mission. I'm also talking about in debriefs and mission briefs too where they definitely would mention it.

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1. Jumping from the node to point B, preparing for an attack and then proceeding to attack point C is very different from attacking point C, and then jumping out to point B before returing to C.
One is getting ready to conduct an attack, the other one is runnign away.

And neither were things we ever saw the Shivans do.

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2. Sathanas broke trough the blockade - but that doesn't mean that every single ship is destroyed - some could have escaped - for instance the Phoenicia! Those surviving ships would be easy prey for the Beleth.

Poor example since the Phoenica gets killed about half the time. But again the Shivans have never shown much interest in picking off the stragglers. The only place the Beleth could have been expected to go was to Capella.
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: TrashMan on March 18, 2007, 05:50:46 pm
Quite relevant.
If the subspace rift opens only seconds before the ship arrives, then what use is the data from the ship at the arrival point. By the time it gets any data at all the enemy ships is allready there - you can tell visually.

Nope irrelevant. There are other kinds of effects on subspace beyond the opening of a jump hole. Who are you to say that there aren't minute changes in subspace just prior to the opening of a jump point? How can you possibly know that they can't be tracked?

Subspace is another dimension outside our space. I find it highly unlikely that you can see waht's ging in in there without having a "open fdoor2 so to speak..


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1. Jumping from the node to point B, preparing for an attack and then proceeding to attack point C is very different from attacking point C, and then jumping out to point B before returing to C.
One is getting ready to conduct an attack, the other one is runnign away.

And neither were things we ever saw the Shivans do.

Sez who? We seen a lot of time shivan fighter/bomber attacks with destroyers following eihter later or not at all (thus, they're hanging back)

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2. Sathanas broke trough the blockade - but that doesn't mean that every single ship is destroyed - some could have escaped - for instance the Phoenicia! Those surviving ships would be easy prey for the Beleth.

Poor example since the Phoenica gets killed about half the time. But again the Shivans have never shown much interest in picking off the stragglers. The only place the Beleth could have been expected to go was to Capella.

The Phoienicia can get destroyed becosue of the SEXP that triggers too late. It's clear that [V] meant for it to survive, so it IS a possible target for the Beleth. But regardless, you have no proof that there are no other ships beside it in the system.

Also, Shivans seem to be intent on killing everyone. They have shown that they are quite willing to attack anything that moves - from damaged/stranded ships to civilian transports..
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: Ace on March 18, 2007, 06:17:09 pm
Nope irrelevant. There are other kinds of effects on subspace beyond the opening of a jump hole. Who are you to say that there aren't minute changes in subspace just prior to the opening of a jump point? How can you possibly know that they can't be tracked?

Subspace is another dimension outside our space. I find it highly unlikely that you can see waht's ging in in there without having a "open fdoor2 so to speak..
[/quote]

Remember that subspace tracking technology was developed by the Ancients... and right before they were annihilated.

It is interesting that effectively we had a group that was unable to stop the Shivans due to their shields, but still learned of a weakness (following them into subspace) but in the end were annihilated at the point that they knew how to fight them.
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: karajorma on March 18, 2007, 08:24:35 pm
Subspace is another dimension outside our space. I find it highly unlikely that you can see waht's ging in in there without having a "open fdoor2 so to speak..

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Over 80 Shivan Juggernauts are now in position around the Capella sun. Science vessels monitoring their activity have detected an anomalous subspace field rippling from the Juggernaut fleet. Though we can barely detect the field with our instruments, its intensity has been increasing slowly over the past seventy-two hours. We have known since the Great War that the Shivans possess advanced subspace technologies, but this field goes beyond our wildest speculations.

Funny that. None of them are jumping out yet the scientists are detecting a subspace field from them.

Actually, more simply, If you can't see anything from subspace except when a jump point is open you have to wonder how on Earth you find a new jump node?

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Sez who? We seen a lot of time shivan fighter/bomber attacks with destroyers following eihter later or not at all (thus, they're hanging back)


Name a single time in the main campaign we see a Shivan vessel leave a fight and then send fighters to attack something without jumping to the same point itself?
 
I never said Shivans didn't hang back. I said that we've never seen them leave a fight so that they can launch fighters.
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: TrashMan on March 19, 2007, 07:03:51 am
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Over 80 Shivan Juggernauts are now in position around the Capella sun. Science vessels monitoring their activity have detected an anomalous subspace field rippling from the Juggernaut fleet. Though we can barely detect the field with our instruments, its intensity has been increasing slowly over the past seventy-two hours. We have known since the Great War that the Shivans possess advanced subspace technologies, but this field goes beyond our wildest speculations.

Funny that. None of them are jumping out yet the scientists are detecting a subspace field from them.

What about that green ripply field they made with their 4 claws? That's a subspace emitter/riftmaker of some kind.

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Actually, more simply, If you can't see anything from subspace except when a jump point is open you have to wonder how on Earth you find a new jump node?

I'd guess that jump nodes and standard jumping are vey different, given that nodes are fixed and stable, so they ought to give SOME stable readings.


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Name a single time in the main campaign we see a Shivan vessel leave a fight and then send fighters to attack something without jumping to the same point itself?
 I never said Shivans didn't hang back. I said that we've never seen them leave a fight so that they can launch fighters.

What are you on about? How can you leave a fight if you don't get inot it in the first place?
read carefully:

Beleth jumping from the other side of hte system to point B (either to attack something at point B, like the Phoenicia or to launch fighters and prepare) and THEN proceeding to point C (Capella node).

This is far different than jumping to hte node, fihgting, jumping somewhere else and then launchiing fihgters..


Wahtever, I belive it's time to use your own arguments against you:

You have to conclusively prove that the Beleth was subspace tracked. I only need prove that it could have been either subspace tracking or a guess to win this one. As I said before it's not my fault that you decided to get into an argument where you have to conclusively prove your points while I just have to give possibilities. So prove it. Or give up.

You have to prove there we no other plausable destinations for the Beleth in order for the educated guess theory to havy any sense. All I have top do is give other posibilites.
I belive I have done more than by proving other possible destinations for the Beleth existed  ;7

so...give up? :drevil:

Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: karajorma on March 19, 2007, 07:34:59 am
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Over 80 Shivan Juggernauts are now in position around the Capella sun. Science vessels monitoring their activity have detected an anomalous subspace field rippling from the Juggernaut fleet. Though we can barely detect the field with our instruments, its intensity has been increasing slowly over the past seventy-two hours. We have known since the Great War that the Shivans possess advanced subspace technologies, but this field goes beyond our wildest speculations.

Funny that. None of them are jumping out yet the scientists are detecting a subspace field from them.

What about that green ripply field they made with their 4 claws? That's a subspace emitter/riftmaker of some kind.


You mean the subspace field that they generate only 20 minutes after that briefing? Yep, that's great proof that you can't take subspace readings from something you can't see. :rolleyes:

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I'd guess that jump nodes and standard jumping are vey different, given that nodes are fixed and stable, so they ought to give SOME stable readings.


But that does disprove your point that you can't read anything about subspace without an open jump point, doesn't it?

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Beleth jumping from the other side of hte system to point B (either to attack something at point B, like the Phoenicia or to launch fighters and prepare) and THEN proceeding to point C (Capella node).

What the **** are you on about? What does that even have to do with the subject under discussion? We weren't talking about the Beleth. We were talking about the other Shivan ships mentioned in that mission.

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You have to prove there we no other plausable destinations for the Beleth in order for the educated guess theory to havy any sense. All I have top do is give other posibilites.

Wrong! I don't need to prove that there weren't any other plausible destinations. I only need to prove that Command might have thought that there weren't any other plausible destinations and therefore took a guess. You can talk about the Phonecia all you like but the fact it that it's quite possible that Command didn't consider it a likely target.
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: Goober5000 on March 19, 2007, 08:59:25 pm
Don't mind me, I'm just stirring the pot. :)


Here's a point I thought up after posting last time that I found rather interesting. We only ever see subspace tracking used 4 times in total AFAIK.

...

So what if subspace tracking only works when you have a subspace tracking capable ship at both endpoints?
That would be pretty useless IMHO.  Anyway...

1) I don't think there were GTVA ships at the Sirius node.  Command pulled the blockade, remember.

2) If Shivans track ships through subspace the same way Terrans and Vasudans do, then I have a counterexample.  The Lucifer tracked the Taranis to Tombaugh Installation, and we can probably assume there were no Shivans there before the Lucifer showed up.


Name a single time in the main campaign we see a Shivan vessel leave a fight and then send fighters to attack something without jumping to the same point itself?
I'm not sure I understand your wording, but here are two interesting incidents:

1) Doomsday (FS1): The Lucifer sends fighters and bombers to attack the Galatea before eventually jumping there itself;

2) A Failure to Communicate (FS1): The Lucifer jumps out after nuking the installation, but still sends fighters to attack the communications terminal.
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: karajorma on March 20, 2007, 02:39:21 am
That would be pretty useless IMHO.  Anyway...

Notice that subspace tracking in FS2 is pretty useless. The GTVA rarely manages to get any kind of advantage from it at all.

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1) I don't think there were GTVA ships at the Sirius node.  Command pulled the blockade, remember.

We don't know when Command pulls the blockade. It's worth noting that The Romans Blunder was originally designed as a red alert mission so it's likely that :v:'s intent is that the Iceni jumps straight from its location in The Place of Chariots.
 Now if that is the case Command probably were pulling the blockade at the exact same time as they were telling Bosch there was no way they would do that. There was no time for the Iceni to jump out, hold secret negotiations with command and then head to the node. So there probably would have been ships at the node when Bosch jumped out. They just weren't there when the player jumped in.

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2) If Shivans track ships through subspace the same way Terrans and Vasudans do, then I have a counterexample.  The Lucifer tracked the Taranis to Tombaugh Installation, and we can probably assume there were no Shivans there before the Lucifer showed up.

The Shivans use their own system of subspace tracking. It could work on completely different principles from the Ancient-based version which the GTVA have. Hell even if the Ancient system didn't require a ship at both ends that doesn't mean the GTVA were able to duplicate it perfectly.

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Name a single time in the main campaign we see a Shivan vessel leave a fight and then send fighters to attack something without jumping to the same point itself?

I'm not sure I understand your wording, but here are two interesting incidents:

1) Doomsday (FS1): The Lucifer sends fighters and bombers to attack the Galatea before eventually jumping there itself;

2) A Failure to Communicate (FS1): The Lucifer jumps out after nuking the installation, but still sends fighters to attack the communications terminal.

If you read the rest of the thread you'll see I'm on about the Shivans jumping out from a battle so that they can launch a fighter screen for when they re-enter a battle. The Shivans never did anything like that.

I don't see any good reason why they shouldn't but Trashman's entire argument is based upon the premise that the Shivans are such xenophobes that they'd sit there and take it from the Colossus rather than do a pretty similar manoeuvre to the one he claims the other Shivans might have done.

So thanks for butting in and stopping me make him disprove his own theory. :p
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: brandx0 on March 20, 2007, 03:12:58 am
I'm not sure if this has been brought up in this thread yet, but I'd like to note that proving your point in an argument is very different from disproving the other guys.

On the one hand, yes some of the arguments towards the possibility of subspace tracking have been debunked, the other side of the argument has to step it up a notch and prove that subspace tracking ISN'T used or possible.  C'mon guys, I know its the internet, but step it up. 
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: TrashMan on March 20, 2007, 03:55:29 am
I'd guess that jump nodes and standard jumping are vey different, given that nodes are fixed and stable, so they ought to give SOME stable readings.


But that does disprove your point that you can't read anything about subspace without an open jump point, doesn't it?


Not really, since inter-system and intra-system jump are way different.
Like I siad, jump nodes have fixed points, and thus those fixed points have to be detectable in some way.
IMHO:
Standard jumping has no fixed ending - it like an endless number of possible micro jump-nodes. Scanning them all would be impossible (practicly infinite ammount of data to process).

AFAIK, during a normal jump you set your destination point during the jump, you cna't change it mid-jump, thus scannin the opening while a ships is jumping should by any logic give you an insight to where it is going...


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What the **** are you on about? What does that even have to do with the subject under discussion? We weren't talking about the Beleth. We were talking about the other Shivan ships mentioned in that mission.

We were talking about shivan ships in general, and Beleth is one of them...

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You have to prove there we no other plausable destinations for the Beleth in order for the educated guess theory to havy any sense. All I have top do is give other posibilites.

Wrong! I don't need to prove that there weren't any other plausible destinations. I only need to prove that Command might have thought that there weren't any other plausible destinations and therefore took a guess. You can talk about the Phonecia all you like but the fact it that it's quite possible that Command didn't consider it a likely target.

You want to prove what a fictional charachter might have thought? [\b]Do you even realise how absurd that is?

How hard is to understant that you can't say for certain a ship will go to point B unless you're tracking it... especially if there are other logical places where it could go. Command was sure - that's not guesswork (well, not unless Command is even dumber than it appears).
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: karajorma on March 20, 2007, 04:12:49 am
I'm not even going to bother replying until you figure out how to use the quote tags properly. :p

I'm not sure if this has been brought up in this thread yet, but I'd like to note that proving your point in an argument is very different from disproving the other guys.

On the one hand, yes some of the arguments towards the possibility of subspace tracking have been debunked, the other side of the argument has to step it up a notch and prove that subspace tracking ISN'T used or possible.  C'mon guys, I know its the internet, but step it up.

I've pointed that fact out several times in fact. My point is not to say that subspace tracking could have been used at other points in the game. It's to point out that it can't be proved one way or the other if it was used or not.

This entire argument started over whether Command was stupid to be worried about killing the Sathanas. Arguments based on "But command could have tracked them" are pointless if there is any doubt as to whether or not they could have. So until Trashman can conclusively prove that they could have Command weren't dumb at all (At least not about this).
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: aldo_14 on March 20, 2007, 04:51:36 am

Moreso, the Lucifer was only tracked using Ancient technology that was designed to track it (or some similar shielded vessel); there's no reason to assume that the GTVA has mastered that technology for tracking all possible Shivan craft (particularly given the new variety and technological level of FS2 Shivans vessels versus FS1) opposed to simply reusing the Ancients specific work  Plus, the Lucifer was a rather unique vessel, and there's no way of knowing whether its unique characteristics were what allowed the Ancients to track it.

Then how can the Terrans track the Belisarius? Are you implying that the GTVA developed subspace tracking on their own?

I'm implying that GTVA technology is easier to track than Shivan, what with it being less sophisticated and better 'known'. :)  I.e. that they could use the Ancient technology for tracking the Lucifer specifically and adapt it to Terran/Vasudan jumpdrives but not necessarily the more enigmatic Shivan technology.
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: TrashMan on March 21, 2007, 05:02:23 am
I'm not even going to bother replying until you figure out how to use the quote tags properly. :p

Way to avoid the issue. :yes: Yer slippin... :P
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: Desert Tyrant on March 24, 2007, 04:42:00 pm
Long-Range sensors never seem to pick up things. In ST, it was said there were 2 Aten cruisers though when you begin the mission there are actually 4.
Thou shall not metion Silent Threat, unless you something horrible done... :pimp:
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: Snail on March 24, 2007, 04:49:05 pm
Silent Threat is fully canon. Nothing you can come up with, or the Silent Threat: Reborn team, can come up with that can overpower any information in any of the official games.
Title: Re: Campaign is not very smart.
Post by: Aardwolf on March 25, 2007, 10:05:53 pm
I am starting a new thread. It will be called STOP COMMITING WANTON ACTS OF SACRILEGE. Look for it in this board.