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General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Kie99 on August 19, 2007, 07:52:48 pm

Title: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Kie99 on August 19, 2007, 07:52:48 pm
What do you reckon?  Would the GTVA concentrate its resources into making more destroyers and corvettes, or an improved Colossus design, bearing in mind that it would take significantly less than 20 years to build another one.  The Colossus was a success at what it was designed for, crushing rebellions and eliminating destroyers, and any attempt to emulate the Sathanas would fall woefully short with the GTVA's tech level.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Hades on August 19, 2007, 08:00:51 pm
You would think that they would, but it would look abit different.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: StarSlayer on August 19, 2007, 08:07:20 pm
Depends on how much infrastructure was left after the first was built, and whether or not they had others in development at  the time of Capella.  If the yards were already specifically built to produce Colossi and it would be difficult to retool them then i would wager they might continue, though they might improve them with experience.  Especially if they continued to build them after the 1st slid out the yards.  On the other hand the GTVA would have been hurting at the end of Capella and the need for lighter classes probably was drastic.  The need for Destroyers Corvettes and Cruisers t protect GTVA space could definetly put the prospect of another Super Capital ship on the shelf.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: akenbosch on August 19, 2007, 08:20:39 pm
NO.


they would build smaller ships with more turrets, since turrets come cheap and they would have more powerful ships.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Kie99 on August 19, 2007, 08:21:39 pm
I think that in order to combat the Shivan threat, the GTVA would keep a Destroyer filled with Meson Bombs in every system, and if Shivans attack, destroy the jump node ASAP.  This would be the only reasonable strategy to stop the Shivans annihilating the GTVA.  Rebellion and the like would be what GTVA ships would be designed to fight.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: akenbosch on August 19, 2007, 08:28:16 pm
shivans can use unstable jump nodes, remember? the sathanas got through without a knossos, so why cant more shivans get through? you'd want many powerful ships that require minimal crew (and perhaps even automated ships, or atleast turrets). and they would probably replace blob turrets with something better (FL style ion cannons, fighter weapons, more beams). the fs2 fleet was, after all, the fs1 fleet with streamlining and beams.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Hades on August 19, 2007, 08:34:15 pm
The Reason that the FS2 ships have little guns is because they have powerful weapons that Require alot of energy.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: akenbosch on August 19, 2007, 09:20:33 pm
one 4th of the collosuss's turrets are beams (counting AAAs), and only 7 (2-5 of which are AAAs) of those ever face the enemy at one time.


and who says these weapons would be powerful on their own? im talking in the category of Kaysers and Maxims.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Sarafan on August 19, 2007, 09:33:01 pm
IMHO its a no go for another Colossus. The GTVA should focus instead in rebuilding its fleet and, instead of Juggernauts, they should build super-destroyers.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: TrashMan on August 20, 2007, 04:20:23 am
shivans can use unstable jump nodes, remember? the sathanas got through without a knossos, so why cant more shivans get through?

1. AFAIK, the node stablised...

2. We're talking about COMMAND here...in other words, think of hte worst possible strategy do deal with Capella and there's a 99% chance that's what the GTVA would do....
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: -Joshua- on August 20, 2007, 06:02:40 am
Why? whats wrong with the Use Alpha 1 (tm) tactic?
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Kie99 on August 20, 2007, 06:53:57 am
shivans can use unstable jump nodes, remember? the sathanas got through without a knossos, so why cant more shivans get through? you'd want many powerful ships that require minimal crew (and perhaps even automated ships, or atleast turrets). and they would probably replace blob turrets with something better (FL style ion cannons, fighter weapons, more beams). the fs2 fleet was, after all, the fs1 fleet with streamlining and beams.

As far as we know, they can't get through jump nodes that have been destroyed by having a big explosion in them.  That's why the GTVA tried to seal of Capella.

IMHO its a no go for another Colossus. The GTVA should focus instead in rebuilding its fleet and, instead of Juggernauts, they should build super-destroyers.

Building superdestroyers would require design phases, testing, prototyping, for the Colossus that has already been done.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mars on August 20, 2007, 08:50:17 am
In short no.

The Colossus took 20 years to build and was probably extraordinarily expensive. I don't think the GTVA would try to fight in the same way as the Shivans who obviously outnumber the GTVA considerabley. Taking another 15 years and who knows how much money to build something that was destroyed in minutes would probably not go over well.

Rather I think that specialized ships will appear, not sure what kind. Maybe something like the BWO's Golgotha, destroyers with some sort of Sathanas resistant armor and sexy unitasking beam, some type of meson-bomb equipped bomber.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Elukka on August 20, 2007, 08:58:59 am
Why would they build more huge, non-maneuverable ships? I think they'd concentrate on more maneuverable capital ships and fighters/bombers now, considering Shivans have those nasty beam cannons, especially on Sathani. Juggernauts and superdestroyers are especially easy prey for them.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Snail on August 20, 2007, 10:06:00 am
Just build 30 more Orions.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mars on August 20, 2007, 10:26:52 am
Just make the Hecate worthwhile by giving it subsystem armor and a nice powerful cannon up front, build a better heavy bomber, and mass produce both of them shamelessly
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on August 20, 2007, 11:10:40 am
Would the GTVA concentrate its resources into making more destroyers and corvettes, or an improved Colossus design, bearing in mind that it would take significantly less than 20 years to build another one.

The Colossus took 20 years to build and was probably extraordinarily expensive. I don't think the GTVA would try to fight in the same way as the Shivans who obviously outnumber the GTVA considerabley. Taking another 15 years and who knows how much money to build something that was destroyed in minutes would probably not go over well.

The first Colossus was a top secret project, that's why it needed 20 years to complete. All GTVA citizens and most members of the military knew nothing about its existance.

Try to imagine a debate at the General Assembly...

"These guys want to know why all their money wasn't used to build up a destroyer"

The construction of the Colossus must have proceeded slowly. The second Colossus would be constructed in about 10 years or less, since every single GTVA citizen would be called to help.

Try to imagine a Post-Capella GTVA, where even civilians know the importance of having a powerful fleet. People would donate their money to contruct a second Colossus!
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Snail on August 20, 2007, 11:19:36 am
That would be called Strategic Defense Endeavor (SDE). This would mean that taxes would rise, and people would be forced to pay more. All their money would go from welfare and free medical treatment to building more Colossi. What happens? Crime rates and general unhappiness in the fringe systems, such as Procyon, go up, leading to a huge rebellion called the Procyon Confederate Autonomy.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on August 20, 2007, 11:24:30 am
Keep in mind that the Reconstruction era GTVA suffered problems of integrity. It is probable that those problems were caused by taxes.

But everything should be different for the second Colossus. All citizens should know that a warship like that is necessary.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Sarafan on August 20, 2007, 11:25:14 am

Building superdestroyers would require design phases, testing, prototyping, for the Colossus that has already been done.

A SD would be far less costly than a Juggernaut and much faster to build, and any new ship requires design phases, testing, prototyping. To make a SD, the GTVA simply needs to downsize a Jug/build a bigger destroyer.


The first Colossus was a top secret project, that's why it needed 20 years to complete. All GTVA citizens and most members of the military knew nothing about its existance.

Try to imagine a debate at the General Assembly...

"These guys want to know why all their money wasn't used to build up a destroyer"

The construction of the Colossus must have proceeded slowly. The second Colossus would be constructed in about 10 years or less, since every single GTVA citizen would be called to help.

Try to imagine a Post-Capella GTVA, where even civilians know the importance of having a powerful fleet. People would donate their money to contruct a second Colossus!

What money? The GTVA just lost a important economic system and the whole fleet, they're in for a serious economic hardship after Capella, and nobody is going to give their money so the GTVA can build warships and go chase shivans.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Snail on August 20, 2007, 11:27:06 am
What money? The GTVA just lost a important economic system and the whole fleet, they're in for a serious economic hardship after Capella, and nobody is going to give their money so the GTVA can build warships and go chase shivans.

I'm going to go join the PCA. Do I get a shiny star-shaped badge? :cool:
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on August 20, 2007, 11:44:51 am
You exaggerate when you consider the loss of Capella a terrible one. Most civilians managed to escape and the GTVA suffered major losses in other battles(just think about Epsilon Pegasi...80,000 casualties!). Destroyers like the Messana and the Aquitaine escaped from the system before Apocalypse. Who knows how many other ships did the same!

Under an economical point of view, the might have lost important factories. But the NTF leaved much more problems.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Sarafan on August 20, 2007, 11:49:47 am
I dont exaggerate, together with the losses inflicted by both the NTF and the Shivans and the now thoushands of refugees in need, the GTVA is in for a serious hard time, that's obvious.

And we know how much of the fleet is left when Petrarch says the *whole fleet* has been pulverized. Even if two destroyers escaped, they are hardly enough to secure the whole GTVA, much less a important system.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Snail on August 20, 2007, 11:51:32 am
But pulling everyone's money from welfare and free medical care and whatever to making Colossi is BOUND to make something happen. How would you feel if your government went and raised the taxes by insane amounts to build nuclear warheads?
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on August 20, 2007, 12:16:43 pm
I dont exaggerate, together with the losses inflicted by both the NTF and the Shivans and the now thoushands of refugees in need, the GTVA is in for a serious hard time, that's obvious.

And we know how much of the fleet is left when Petrarch says the *whole fleet* has been pulverized. Even if two destroyers escaped, they are hardly enough to secure the whole GTVA, much less a important system.

Then consider also the NTF, not only Capella. Keep in mind that the NTF had almost 10 destroyers, the whole GTVA fleet should be immense. Though the losses in Capella were considerable, most assets were still available to put and end to any kind of military coup.

I don't think that the whole GTVA fleet got terminated in Capella. It's impossible!
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Sarafan on August 20, 2007, 12:20:27 pm

Then consider also the NTF, not only Capella. Keep in mind that the NTF had almost 10 destroyers, the whole GTVA fleet should be immense. Though the losses in Capella were considerable, most assets were still available to put and end to any kind of military coup.

I don't think that the whole GTVA fleet got terminated in Capella. It's impossible!

The canon information that we do have confirms that the entire fleet has been destroyed, it's right there.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Snail on August 20, 2007, 12:20:43 pm
... And *most* of our fleet.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Sarafan on August 20, 2007, 12:21:24 pm
... And *most* of our fleet.

What? :confused:
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on August 20, 2007, 12:23:03 pm
Come on! The whole GTVA fleet was destroyed in Capella?

And what about Wolf 359? That system has a fleet. Even in case of call for reinforcements when the first Sathanas appeared, the fleet coming from that system would have never arrived in time!
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Snail on August 20, 2007, 12:28:56 pm
The final cutscene.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Sarafan on August 20, 2007, 12:30:50 pm
Come on! The whole GTVA fleet was destroyed in Capella?

And what about Wolf 359? That system has a fleet. Even in case of call for reinforcements when the first Sathanas appeared, the fleet coming from that system would have never arrived in time!

Yes, the whole fleet.

And Wolf 359? That place is in the middle of nowhere, how much of a *fleet* such system would have? They would be lucky to have even a destroyer.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Kie99 on August 20, 2007, 01:34:36 pm
What evidence do you have for the whole fleet being destroyed?
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on August 20, 2007, 01:58:58 pm
And Wolf 359? That place is in the middle of nowhere, how much of a *fleet* such system would have? They would be lucky to have even a destroyer.

If you fail Argonautica, in the debriefing it is mentioned your reassignment to the Wolf 359 fleet. But of course, you have to replay the mission.

What evidence do you have for the whole fleet being destroyed?

I quote. There's no concrete evidence. Most of all, it is difficult to believe.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: karajorma on August 20, 2007, 02:15:00 pm
And what about Wolf 359? That system has a fleet. Even in case of call for reinforcements when the first Sathanas appeared, the fleet coming from that system would have never arrived in time!

How do you figure that? 10 minutes to transit the node, another couple of minutes to recharge engines for the in-system jump, another few minutes for the jump out. Even putting the time for the entire cycle at 30 minutes you could still get ships from any system to any other GTVA system in a day.

The final cutscene.

Petrarch may easily have been referring to 3rd Fleet, Capella rather than the entire GTVA fleet. It's quite hard to tell which one he meant.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on August 20, 2007, 02:23:28 pm
And what about Wolf 359? That system has a fleet. Even in case of call for reinforcements when the first Sathanas appeared, the fleet coming from that system would have never arrived in time!

How do you figure that? 10 minutes to transit the node, another couple of minutes to recharge engines for the in-system jump, another few minutes for the jump out. Even putting the time for the entire cycle at 30 minutes you could still get ships from any system to any other GTVA system in a day.

Depends. What if the nodes are too close for a intra system jump, but are still too far to be reached in time? One example is Knossos number 3. The Sathanas coming from it don't jump to the area near the node for the Nebula.

And the vessels need supplies during their travel. They shouldn't travel at all, it would cost too much. And there must have been GTVA fleets blockading the node to Capella, Vega and Epsilon Pegasi. What if a consistent Shivan force managed to pass through?

Petrarch may easily have been referring to 3rd Fleet, Capella rather than the entire GTVA fleet. It's quite hard to tell which one he meant.

At this point, becomes clear that Petrarch was refering to the 3rd Fleet. The system it was based on is gone, so "destroyed" would also work as a metaphore in this case.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: karajorma on August 20, 2007, 02:51:14 pm
Depends. What if the nodes are too close for a intra system jump, but are still too far to be reached in time? One example is Knossos number 3. The Sathanas coming from it don't jump to the area near the node for the Nebula.

Then they jump to a staging location and then back to the destination node. That would add 10 minutes to the journey time perhaps.

Quote
At this point, becomes clear that Petrarch was refering to the 3rd Fleet. The system it was based on is gone, so "destroyed" would also work as a metaphore in this case.

That's in no way proven. You can't tell me that you can tell what he's talking about with 100% certainty from this.

Quote
No one can fathom how or why the Shivans destroyed the Capella star. We lost a place many of us called home. We lost entire squadrons, the Colossus, and most of our fleet. We lost so many friends that we celebrate our victory with grief and mourning.

Especially given that the Colossus was NOT part of 3rd fleet.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Sarafan on August 20, 2007, 03:06:12 pm
The NTF already did significant damage to the GTVA fleet, like you said look at what they did to the 6th fleet at EP, they lasted for 18 months doing damage till the end.

Then you have the shivans, the first Sat already breaks all thats in Capella before its destroyed and now with 80+ Sathanas, do you think the GTVA would station only the 3rd fleet there to defend it? Of course not.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Frosty on August 20, 2007, 03:23:33 pm
But pulling everyone's money from welfare and free medical care and whatever to making Colossi is BOUND to make something happen. How would you feel if your government went and raised the taxes by insane amounts to build nuclear warheads?

I would not care as long as it meant that humanity would not be wiped out.  The shivans are the single biggest threat to the humanity's whole existence.  Finding a way to stop them would be the biggest concern on any GTVA citizens mind. 

IMO Petrarch was talking about th entire GTVA fleet as a whole when he said pulverized.  Pulverized doesn't necessarily mean destroyed either, it could mean that most of it was lost or damaged (ie. out of commission for at least a while), but not necessarily destroyed.

Besides we all saw the Sathanas take out that hecate in under 5s in Bearbating.  What good would making more Hecate's do when the Colossus was really the only thing that could stand toe to toe with a Sathanas.  I think the  GTVA should build more Colossus' at least for the meantime while it works to develop better destroyers or super destroyers that can actually last against a Sathanas.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on August 20, 2007, 03:36:40 pm
Depends. What if the nodes are too close for a intra system jump, but are still too far to be reached in time? One example is Knossos number 3. The Sathanas coming from it don't jump to the area near the node for the Nebula.

Then they jump to a staging location and then back to the destination node. That would add 10 minutes to the journey time perhaps.

It would be possible. We should take something in consideration: were the reinforcements sortied to face the first Sathanas or the Juggernaut fleet? In the second case, arriving in time would have been difficult.

Also, why would the GTVA send the whole fleet? Were the GTVA outposts in Vega, Epsilon Pegasi and Capella able to resupply a so big fleet? Epsilon Pegasi was still affected by what the NTF did a few weeks(days?)before.

Quote
At this point, becomes clear that Petrarch was refering to the 3rd Fleet. The system it was based on is gone, so "destroyed" would also work as a metaphore in this case.

That's in no way proven. You can't tell me that you can tell what he's talking about with 100% certainty from this.

I know, we can't be sure, but is probable that Petrarch was refering to the 3rd Fleet. Again, we can't be sure of it. :)

Then you have the shivans, the first Sat already breaks all thats in Capella before its destroyed and now with 80+ Sathanas, do you think the GTVA would station only the 3rd fleet there to defend it? Of course not.

Well, the player can prevent that massacre. This means that it shouldn't be considered. There are some glitches, like the Colossus that sustains moderate damage even if you disarm the Sathanas' main beam weapons in Bearbaiting. Again, we can't be sure :)

I would not care as long as it meant that humanity would not be wiped out.  The shivans are the single biggest threat to the humanity's whole existence.  Finding a way to stop them would be the biggest concern on any GTVA citizens mind.

I agree, but keep in mind that strange things happen under these circumstances. What if an apocalyptic sect(it could even be Terran)spreads propaganda? What if the GTVA citizens realize that nothing can survive? They will rather cut themselves off from the GTVA. For example, the goverment of a system could proclamate that system independent. They could collapse all nodes taking to other GTVA systems. "We have what we need. The Shivans won't get here to kill us, and you won't get here to take our money away!". I know that it may seem exaggerate, but...who knows?

IMO Petrarch was talking about th entire GTVA fleet as a whole when he said pulverized.  Pulverized doesn't necessarily mean destroyed either, it could mean that most of it was lost or damaged (ie. out of commission for at least a while), but not necessarily destroyed.

It may be a translation problem, but...pulverized means pulverized! Whatever Petrarch was refering to, it is now powder...

Besides we all saw the Sathanas take out that hecate in under 5s in Bearbating.  What good would making more Hecate's do when the Colossus was really the only thing that could stand toe to toe with a Sathanas.  I think the  GTVA should build more Colossus' at least for the meantime while it works to develop better destroyers or super destroyers that can actually last against a Sathanas.

Is the Phoenicia supposed to escape? You can't be sure of its destruction. The Thebes jumps in and its CO talks about a large debris field, ok, but the debris could be remnants of other GTVA ships, Phoenicia* excluded.

It's pretty much a plot hole: the Phoenicia isn't even mentioned in the debriefing. In case of destruction, it should have been mentioned. In case of desertion, it should have been mentioned....maybe not...  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Black Wolf on August 20, 2007, 03:43:13 pm
Collossus reconstruction could go either way. On the one hand, as has been pointed out, all the hard work (testing, designing etc. etc.) for collossus class ships had been done, they were exceptionally successful at what they were designed to do (eliminating destroyers)), plus all the yards and whatnot would have been in place, experienced personnel, etc. etc.

On the other hand, given the likely economic situation post capella, it might have been hard to get it budgetted for, especially with other major projects begging for funds (Sol knossos, Capellan refugee resettlement etc. etc.)

If I were in government, I think I'd raise taxes somewhat, and go for a second Collossus, while reactivating a few mothballed destroyers/cruisers etc. if they're available (I'm mostly thinking Typhons and atens here). I'd hold up the Collossus as a shining example of Terran Vasudan unity that was all that stood against the Shivan hordes, and a crew which bravely sacrificed their lives that others might be saved. In the event of the alliance fracturing (some of the old Terran Blocs breaking away, for example), a Collossus would be of great use in retaking them.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Sarafan on August 20, 2007, 03:45:03 pm

Well, the player can prevent that massacre. This means that it shouldn't be considered. There are some glitches, like the Colossus that sustains moderate damage even if you disarm the Sathanas' main beam weapons in Bearbaiting. Again, we can't be sure :)

What does that have to do with it? The facts still remain, the GTVA sorted its whole fleet at Capella to buy time for the evacuation and it got pulverized doing so.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on August 20, 2007, 03:48:12 pm
I was refering to the first Sathanas and the fact that he decimates a consistent GTVA fleet if the player doesn't disarm its BFReds in Bearbaiting. Does that loss count in a post Capella GTVA? I guess so...
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: TrashMan on August 20, 2007, 04:02:29 pm
Most of hte fleet lost...how much is that...60%...70%?

GTVA didn't lsoe all of it's fleet...otherwise the player, aquitaince and several other ship should also be very, very dead.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on August 20, 2007, 04:06:48 pm
We know that the Aquitaine and the Messana survived. :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Bob-san on August 20, 2007, 04:46:23 pm
Collossus reconstruction could go either way. On the one hand, as has been pointed out, all the hard work (testing, designing etc. etc.) for collossus class ships had been done, they were exceptionally successful at what they were designed to do (eliminating destroyers)), plus all the yards and whatnot would have been in place, experienced personnel, etc. etc.

On the other hand, given the likely economic situation post capella, it might have been hard to get it budgetted for, especially with other major projects begging for funds (Sol knossos, Capellan refugee resettlement etc. etc.)

If I were in government, I think I'd raise taxes somewhat, and go for a second Collossus, while reactivating a few mothballed destroyers/cruisers etc. if they're available (I'm mostly thinking Typhons and atens here). I'd hold up the Collossus as a shining example of Terran Vasudan unity that was all that stood against the Shivan hordes, and a crew which bravely sacrificed their lives that others might be saved. In the event of the alliance fracturing (some of the old Terran Blocs breaking away, for example), a Collossus would be of great use in retaking them.
I definitely have to agree with you... the GTVA might not be the tactical genius they think they are, but they're certainly not stupid. The Colossus would likely be rebuilt in under half the time--remember that the Colossus was nothing but an **idea** until 20 years prior to first deployment. They designed the ship's hull from scratch. They designed every system, likely several times over. They designed every square inch of the Colossus during peace-time (less funds for design), tested it under high scrutiny and secrecy, and likely changed out many major components. The fact that it got done in 20 years is amazing--they had limited funding (compared to war periods) and only the high ranked of the GTVA knew about it. It takes years for companies like Boeing to design their aircraft--and the aircraft are a tiny fraction the size of even a Fenris or Levithan! Anyways--something the scale of a Colossus can be redone (with most of the blueprints) and tweaked for better effectiveness. I'd say the second Colossus would come out of drydock for shakedown within 10 years, then a new Colossus following every 5-8 years.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: StarSlayer on August 20, 2007, 04:46:39 pm
From the cutscene it looks like they lost a Diemos  :ick:  *runs*
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: S-99 on August 20, 2007, 04:47:38 pm
shivans can use unstable jump nodes, remember? the sathanas got through without a knossos, so why cant more shivans get through? you'd want many powerful ships that require minimal crew (and perhaps even automated ships, or atleast turrets). and they would probably replace blob turrets with something better (FL style ion cannons, fighter weapons, more beams). the fs2 fleet was, after all, the fs1 fleet with streamlining and beams.

Correction. Shivans can't get through collapsed nodes. Unstable nodes sure they can.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: NGTM-1R on August 20, 2007, 04:57:24 pm
I doubt it, for the simple reason that the Colossus proved to be a logistical nightmare in practice, despite impressive combat performance. Then again, the 20-year development and construction cycle also likely played hell with systems integration. A newer design with a "frozen" hullform and gear would probably be a 5-8 year project.

But given the sheer expense of the Colossus and the resources it requires, and the need to rebuild the rest of the GTVA's military, it seems unlikely that another Colossus or similar ship would be in the works before the end of the decade immediately following Capella. Much of the ship's technology is likely to be reused however, possibly in a smaller, more manageable "hunter-killer" destroyer or superdestroyer. The concept proved sound but took too expensive a form; future designs would try and correct this.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: TrashMan on August 20, 2007, 05:12:39 pm
logistical nightmare? No more than any other ship really. All point to the "supply to Colossus mission" as evidence of this logistical nightmare.

The Collie jsut arrived from the shipyard, so it wasn't fully stocked yet. I'm willing to bet that any ship leaving hte shipyards goes to a supply base first. But the Collie wen't straight in without taking supplies first, so htey had to bring em to him...WOW..what a logistical nightmare... :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Bob-san on August 20, 2007, 05:45:09 pm
Not to mention that, when fully stocked, the Colossus could likely go for several weeks without support. Think of a week-long rampage against a fleet...

Anyways--the Colossus was perfect at what it was designed to do... be a bloody nightmare to your fleet. Still, who thinks it's plausible to redesign and tweak the Colossus design in 2 years, followed by production in 5-8 years?
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: TrashMan on August 20, 2007, 05:54:01 pm
possible :nod:
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Horus on August 20, 2007, 06:20:59 pm
Dosnt matter if the whole fleet was destroyed. As long as Alpha 1 survived then there is nothing to fear he can deal with any threat. You would think they would make the Collie V2. With the latest tech and new things they may have learned from fighting the saths
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Hades on August 20, 2007, 06:22:54 pm
Horus since your new I will tell you some rules, Please do not say stuff like "Alpha 1 can kill every thing" and such.

EDIT:I think i found karma's email address-      [email protected] For the HTL Colossus's ass.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Horus on August 20, 2007, 06:35:26 pm
Ok seriously then, you would think there would be some kind of defensive line on the other side of the node in case any Shavian ships made it through. And to commit the entire GTVA fleet to evacuate one system when they control heaps of systems is a bad decision when ya never know whats out there. You would think they would have considered that if the shivans find another way through like a unknown jump node or somethink the GTVA may need some defence so would have keep some ships in reserve.

Horus since your new I will tell you some rules, Please do not say stuff like "Alpha 1 can kill every thing" and such.

Sorry if that pissed some people off wasnt ment too and wont happen again
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: karajorma on August 21, 2007, 02:55:52 am
It would be possible. We should take something in consideration: were the reinforcements sortied to face the first Sathanas or the Juggernaut fleet? In the second case, arriving in time would have been difficult.

Also, why would the GTVA send the whole fleet?

Now that is a more sensible objection. Remember I'm not saying that the GTVA did send the fleet, just that they could have if the fleet was ready to do it. People seem to make the assumption that it takes weeks to do fleet manoeuvres in FS2. It doesn't. The game directly contradicts that sort of thinking in several places.

You claimed that there wasn't time between the arrival of the first Sathanas and the second larger invasion of Capella to get the fleet there. Seeing as we're probably looking at a timescale of weeks rather than days I find that rather hard to believe.

Quote
Were the GTVA outposts in Vega, Epsilon Pegasi and Capella able to resupply a so big fleet? Epsilon Pegasi was still affected by what the NTF did a few weeks(days?)before.

I don't buy the resupply argument. Why would ships leave their home bases and need to resupply a day later? The NTF didn't seem to need to when they did a shorter run from their systems to GD.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: NGTM-1R on August 21, 2007, 03:09:15 am
logistical nightmare? No more than any other ship really. All point to the "supply to Colossus mission" as evidence of this logistical nightmare.

Happens to be the only time you're assigned to guard a supply convoy for a single warship, too. That convoy was as large or larger than the one in Battle of the Wilderness, and the Wilderness convoy was intended for the entirety of 3rd Fleet. (It also included no fueling ships!) Also there is commentary on the Colossus being a logistical strain in command briefings, including specific complaints about poor fuel efficeny.

Nowhere in the FS series do we see a supply convoy of similar size dedicated to a single ship, and most of the convoys for whole fleets are considerably smaller.

The Collie jsut arrived from the shipyard, so it wasn't fully stocked yet. I'm willing to bet that any ship leaving hte shipyards goes to a supply base first. But the Collie wen't straight in without taking supplies first, so htey had to bring em to him...WOW..what a logistical nightmare... :rolleyes:

Why the hell was it not fully stocked after construction? Hell, during construction? I refuse to believe it left the shipyard without a full load of fuel, that's just stupid. Granted both possiblities are conjecture, but yours makes a lot less sense than mine.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: TrashMan on August 21, 2007, 04:32:22 am
Why the hell was it not fully stocked after construction? Hell, during construction? I refuse to believe it left the shipyard without a full load of fuel, that's just stupid. Granted both possiblities are conjecture, but yours makes a lot less sense than mine.

AFAIK, that's how it's done... Ships get fully stocked after launch, not while they are still in the shipyard. Someone corrrect me if I'm wrong.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Hades on August 21, 2007, 06:14:21 am
How do you know this?We don't know how long the Colossus was out of the ShipYards.If it was a week, that was probably why it needed fuel and such.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: TrashMan on August 21, 2007, 06:21:45 am
Ya, Command just got a brand new uber-toy in the middle of a civil war they are loosing..Ya, they are gonna wait to deploy that toy. :rolleyes:

Several test drives areound the block Jeeves!
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Hades on August 21, 2007, 06:26:42 am
Ya, Command just got a brand new uber-toy in the middle of a civil war they are loosing..Ya, they are gonna wait to deploy that toy. :rolleyes:

Several test drives areound the block Jeeves!

They have to test it for one, and two They Were Not Loosing.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: TrashMan on August 21, 2007, 06:35:27 am
COMMAND BRIEFING 2

Stalemate in Sirius

The GTD Aquitaine will lead the allied counterstrike against Koth and his warships. We will resupply in Capella before shipping out to the front.

We have also learned our campaign in Sirius has failed. A two-pronged offensive launched from Alpha Centauri and Deneb encountered fierce resistance. Unless we can devise a military solution for dealing with the rebels, the GTVA will be forced to recognize the NTF's authority in Sirius, Regulus, and Polaris.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Snail on August 21, 2007, 10:19:42 am
The Colossus may have been a good accomplishment combat-wise, but psychologically, it was a horrible memory. Think of it like 9/11. Why haven't the US built another World Trade Center at that spot? It would carry too many bad memories.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on August 21, 2007, 10:32:34 am
EDIT:I think i found karma's email address-      [email protected] For the HTL Colossus's ass.

He doesn't even read his e-mails. I tried to contact him a few months ago!

They have to test it for one, and two They Were Not Loosing.

Read TrashMan's post. They were losing the civil war. In any case, the NTF was more than a serious threat.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Frosty on August 21, 2007, 10:59:53 am
GTVA wasn't loosing the war, it wasnt going to loose the war.  Problem was that the conflict had gone on for longer than expected and more resources and men were being lost in a conflict that wasn't truly backed by the GTVA populace (think Vietnam here).  There was probably tons of political pressure on the GTVA to settle the conflict.

Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on August 21, 2007, 11:09:08 am
Being forced to reckognize the NTF's authority in three important systems in a terrible political defeat.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Bob-san on August 21, 2007, 01:04:41 pm
The NTF's authority would likely split the GTVA itself. More people see this rogue group saying "We are the NTF and we'd like to be as close to earth possible". More Terrans go off to join the NTF Rebellion and destroy all Vasudans, invite the Shivans back, and attend the first-ever Shivan-Terran BBQ! Unfortunately, the Terrans are now all ON the BBQ.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: AlphaOne on August 21, 2007, 06:21:16 pm
when are we talking about the whole fleet beeing destroyed we should consider if petrarch was refering to the whole fleet that was sent to capella to help evacuate the refugees and stop the shivans from getting out of the sistem or rather the entire GTVA fleet's put toghether! I mean come on!

Are you seriously gooing to stay there and say to me that GTVA command managed to lose at least 30 destroyers even more corvettes 50 or more and at least 60 or more cruisers in one day???

Since well we seem to have 1-2 destroyers per fleet ! Of course there could be more then 2 but i think 2 destroyers per fleet is the general deployment!
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Bob-san on August 21, 2007, 06:22:58 pm
I'd say it's plausible. Remember the GTVA have a limited number of ships... probably in the hundreds for combat ships (cruisers and up). Not to mention how many fighters they lost to the hordes of Shivans...
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Horus on August 21, 2007, 07:15:43 pm
To throw the entire fleet and thats millions of lives and prob trilloions of dollars into the fire to evacuate one system is a bad stragic decision and you would think the big genrals in command would have thought of that and kept somthing in resurve incase the plan didnt work.

Its no doubt that GTVA got a caining in Capella(and the entire shivan invasion) but they would not have lost everything like Trashman said prob 60-70% lost
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Bob-san on August 21, 2007, 07:57:16 pm
I'd say that post-Capella, the GTVA lost probably 40% of their ship-going personal to the NTF and the Shivans. Make no mistake--that is a heck of a lot of people to die... that would have absolutely decimated the GTVA offensive capability, as so much of the fleet would be required to simply sit around and "defend", making the presence of the fleet to quell rebellion, piracy, and boost civilian morale.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Sarafan on August 21, 2007, 08:36:03 pm
GTVA wasn't loosing the war, it wasnt going to loose the war.  Problem was that the conflict had gone on for longer than expected and more resources and men were being lost in a conflict that wasn't truly backed by the GTVA populace (think Vietnam here).  There was probably tons of political pressure on the GTVA to settle the conflict.



And how do we know that? In absolutely no place does the game show us the fact that the population doesnt support the war. For all we know the NTF might not even be that popular in its own systems!


when are we talking about the whole fleet beeing destroyed we should consider if petrarch was refering to the whole fleet that was sent to capella to help evacuate the refugees and stop the shivans from getting out of the sistem or rather the entire GTVA fleet's put toghether! I mean come on!

Are you seriously gooing to stay there and say to me that GTVA command managed to lose at least 30 destroyers even more corvettes 50 or more and at least 60 or more cruisers in one day???

Since well we seem to have 1-2 destroyers per fleet ! Of course there could be more then 2 but i think 2 destroyers per fleet is the general deployment!

To throw the entire fleet and thats millions of lives and prob trilloions of dollars into the fire to evacuate one system is a bad stragic decision and you would think the big genrals in command would have thought of that and kept somthing in resurve incase the plan didnt work.

Its no doubt that GTVA got a caining in Capella(and the entire shivan invasion) but they would not have lost everything like Trashman said prob 60-70% lost

Somewhat 30 destroyers, 50 corvettes and a unknow number of cruisers and fighters against a enemy that has more than that since we know the shivans are swarming/overruning allied positions and has 80 juggernauts. I agree that the GTVA might not have sent the whole fleet, some assets probably were held back for defence in case the shivans break trough, but they did sent the majority of the fleet.

The GTVA's objective is not just to evacuate Capella, it's to also stop the shivans at Capella because if they do break trough it's the end for the GTVA. And when you're facing the odds of virtual anhiliattion of your species you send out every ship to stop the enemy. Why do you think the GTVA resorted to a desperate tatic such as cutting off Capella? The GTVA saw that they had no chance to win this.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Kie99 on August 21, 2007, 08:47:59 pm
Sending your entire fleet to fight against 80 Juggernauts is absolute insanity.  It would not even slow the Shivans' advance.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Sarafan on August 21, 2007, 09:08:57 pm
Sending your entire fleet to fight against 80 Juggernauts is absolute insanity.  It would not even slow the Shivans' advance.

Exactly, there is no point in egaging them, that's something they clearly saw. That's why the GTVA decided to close the nodes, they were desperate, they sent the fleet to buy as much time to evacuate as much people as possible before it happened. However the Juggernauts just ignored them to do what they were going to do, much to the relief of the GTVA who of course didnt knew of the shivans's intentions. The rest of the shivans, which were a considerable force, however, engaged the GTVA fleet non stop.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Kie99 on August 21, 2007, 09:37:17 pm
No...regardless of that, if the Juggernauts had been intent on rampaging through Capella, the fleet wouldn't have posed any treat to them whatsoever.  Being generous, assume the GTVA sends 100 Destroyers.  That fleet would be gone within seconds once it came up against the Juggernaut fleet.  Just look at what happened to the Psamtik and Phoenecia.  It would have bought virtually no time.

Petrach states that there have been "Over 100,000 casualties" which sets an upper limit of about 125,000?  That's 12 or so destroyers, Terran and Vasudan, not to mention losses of corvettes, cruisers, installation and civilian casualties.  I doubt less than 12 destroyers forms more than say 30% of the GTVA's entire armada.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Sarafan on August 21, 2007, 09:49:01 pm
No, I understand and I agree with that, there is no point in engaging the Juggernauts, it's a lost battle. :) But the GTVA had to send the fleet, they're not just going to leave the millions of civillians there to die and that's why I said that much to the GTVA's relief, the Juggernauts just ignored them.

But definitely on the moment the GTVA notices that the Juggernauts are heading for them, they would pull out immediately.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Horus on August 21, 2007, 09:52:54 pm

The GTVA's objective is not just to evacuate Capella, it's to also stop the shivans at Capella because if they do break trough it's the end for the GTVA. And when you're facing the odds of virtual anhiliattion of your species you send out every ship to stop the enemy. Why do you think the GTVA resorted to a desperate tatic such as cutting off Capella? The GTVA saw that they had no chance to win this.
[/quote]

To hold the shivans in Capella it would be better to blockade the node rather than thinly spread your already damaged fleet across the whole system and deploy just whats necessary to cover the transports. Node is bottle neck and easy to bring all the firepower down on it.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Sarafan on August 21, 2007, 10:09:49 pm

To hold the shivans in Capella it would be better to blockade the node rather than thinly spread your already damaged fleet across the whole system and deploy just whats necessary to cover the transports. Node is bottle neck and easy to bring all the firepower down on it.

The GTVA was doing that, the problem is that the shivans had so much ships that they were overrun.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: morriscat on August 21, 2007, 10:31:38 pm
Actually, the really interesting thing about the Juggernauts is where they were going and what they were doing.

The Lucifer was one thing. It went straight for big population centers and destroyed them. The Sathanas however, as best as I can recall, only ever attacked GTVA military forces. Even then, they usually blew up one or two of whatever the biggest thing around was, and then left, even if there were other ships in the area. The Sathanas that takes down the Colossus, for example, leaves immediately afterwards, completely ignoring the other GTVA forces there.

Really, the only thing that really makes sense, from the Shivan perspective, was that their primary goal was to sever all links with Terran/Vasudan space while causing as few non-military casualties as they could. They identified the one system that linked into Shivan space (Capella), and assaulted military targets exclusively with sufficient force that the GTVA evacuated the system. Once that was underway, they blew up the star to completely eliminate any possible extended confrontation between themselves and the GTVA.

Think about it. They had dozens of Sathanas juggernauts. If their objective had been to lay waste, there's nothing the GTVA could have done to stop it. They would have flooded Capella with juggernauts, taken over all the jump nodes out of Capella AND their far sides, and turned any inhabited planets there into cinders, and the GTVA would have been completely helpless.

This was a defensive fight for the Shivans. THEY were trying to protect themselves from US. Nothing else really makes sense.

Anyway, back on topic, it doesn't seem likely that the GTVA would be building anything on the Colossus scale anytime soon. The NTF is gone, their fleet has been chopped way down, and they've got a LOT of star systems to patrol. The Colossus was built to be a fleet-buster, able to sail right into the middle of an enemy formation and lay waste in all directions. Right now, their primary enemies(pirates, rebels, mercenaries, etc) are going to small, scattered, and hard to pin down. What the GTVA is going to need first, and most desperately, is lots and lots of cruisers and corvettes just to keep sufficient military presence in their space to keep the peace.

Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Goober5000 on August 22, 2007, 01:28:49 am
That convoy was as large or larger than the one in Battle of the Wilderness, and the Wilderness convoy was intended for the entirety of 3rd Fleet. (It also included no fueling ships!)
Uh, no.  That convoy was only carrying TAG missiles, and only for the Warspite.  Reread the briefing.


This was a defensive fight for the Shivans. THEY were trying to protect themselves from US. Nothing else really makes sense.
And another uh, no.  This has already been discussed and refuted here.  It's inconceivable in so many ways that the Shivans would be scared of us.  Their objective wasn't annihilation this time; it was something different.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: S-99 on August 22, 2007, 01:42:05 am
The gtva didn't lose their whole fleet. That's stupid considering it's the gtva which spans many systems, and they have ships that number in the hundreds, if they didn't well then **** they're spread too thin to do anything. It seems obvious that they sent the appropriate resources to capella to oversee the evacuation since they were already evacuating way before those 80 sathani showed up. GTVA already had the ships necessary in system for evacuation and keeping the shivans from breaking through, it was resources set in place when the first sathanas showed up. Plus the GTVA had several ships in the nebula and gamma draconis already doing exploration and shivan hunting. They already had considerable resources that were already at or very close to capella...not to mention the evacuation fleet again doing what it was already doing.

With this evacuation plan in mind and existing forces already close to capella that were pulling out and were still around before they left capella. You know that the gtva was not spread too thin. They had all the necessary resources to do a system evacuation, but not really to blockade a node. From the last two missions, where the mesonned up orion is going to collapse the node, there was only a defense force for the mesonned orion....in other words no blockade necessary. And on the last mission of fs2 where you were on the other side of the last node to be collapsed, there was only a deimos, after that you had this convoy of evacuees coming through. Again, no blockade necessary, you just need to get the mesons through and you have a permanent blockade. I mean all it took was a couple wings of fighters and some cruisers to keep the shivans off of the mesonned up orion to get it to it's detonation spot. Not to mention the blockade of that node on the last mission is on the other side of it, and i don't mean the side that A1 was on. You want to see a real blockade? Go to that one mission in fs2 where you were with the 64th raptors and the mjolnir cannons, that's an actual blockade.

The gtva lost some valuable ships and stuff, but some stuff is apparent. They only had the resources set in place for evacuation and collapsing of the nodes. And by ****s sake you don't need all of the gtva's ships in the whole entire gtva to do that.

The gtva didn't lose 100% of all it's ships in capella. When petrarch says the fleet was decimated, wiped out, whatever, those stupid people just love to take that too broadly. The gtva is made up of ****loads of fleets. That means when petrarch says that the fleet was decimated after you outran a supernova and the rest of the fleet in capella couldn't, he figured that you'd know what he's talking about given that you were there.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: AlphaOne on August 22, 2007, 05:14:57 am
Agreed! There is no mention in the game of the shivans having anywhere near that many destroyers corvettes and cruisers as to pose a threat to the entire GTVA armada ! I mean come on we are talking about hundreds of warships here! They sent perhaps 1 more fleet to aid the 3-rd fleet that was already on station but was beeing hammered by the shivans.

That would make the combined fleet a lot bigger and under the overall command of Adm. Petrarch! this could be the fleet that petrach was talking about! The number of casualties just does not add up! Even if you had only destroyrs present which isw imposible they must of had cruiser and corvettes !
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Snail on August 22, 2007, 06:14:36 am
Agreed! There is no mention in the game of the shivans having anywhere near that many destroyers corvettes and cruisers as to pose a threat to the entire GTVA armada ! I mean come on we are talking about hundreds of warships here! They sent perhaps 1 more fleet to aid the 3-rd fleet that was already on station but was beeing hammered by the shivans.

I still don't get why everybody thinks the Shivans have 80 juggernauts but only 10 destroyers... It's... Well... Weird... And... Kind... of............ I don't know the word. :wtf:

... And on the last mission of fs2 where you were on the other side of the last node to be collapsed, there was only a deimos....

Nope. There was an Aeolus, a Hatshepsut, another Deimos, a load of other ships.... Watch the ending cutscene.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: AlphaOne on August 22, 2007, 09:18:05 am
Because from what we can see the shivans concentrated almost all of they firepower in FS2 on those sathany juggs! Also the small destroyer fleet is not that small when you consider the ciorvettes and cruisers involved!.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Snail on August 22, 2007, 10:08:31 am
What supports your theory that there are only a few destroyers if the Shivans have so many Sathanes? It's illogical.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: AlphaOne on August 22, 2007, 10:17:00 am
I see then do you have anything to support the fact that the shivans engaged the GTVA with at least 10 or more detroyers in game?? Other then the fact that you are asuming and guessing based on the size of the sathany fleet!
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Snail on August 22, 2007, 11:33:43 am
I see then do you have anything to support the fact that the shivans engaged the GTVA with at least 10 or more detroyers in game?? Other then the fact that you are asuming and guessing based on the size of the sathany fleet!

Logic.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on August 22, 2007, 12:04:10 pm
... And on the last mission of fs2 where you were on the other side of the last node to be collapsed, there was only a deimos....

Nope. There was an Aeolus, a Hatshepsut, another Deimos, a load of other ships.... Watch the ending cutscene.

:yes:

No BoE missions from :v:
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: S-99 on August 22, 2007, 12:54:20 pm
Nope. There was an Aeolus, a Hatshepsut, another Deimos, a load of other ships.... Watch the ending cutscene.

I didn't say the ending cutscene, i said the last mission. And no **** there's **** load of ships, there's a convoy with civillian vessels and military vessels. And the military vessels in the convoy sure weren't able to do much. Hell that ****ing deimos survived the best until the sathani cranked up uncle roasty on it.

Agreed! There is no mention in the game of the shivans having anywhere near that many destroyers corvettes and cruisers as to pose a threat to the entire GTVA armada ! I mean come on we are talking about hundreds of warships here! They sent perhaps 1 more fleet to aid the 3-rd fleet that was already on station but was beeing hammered by the shivans.

That would make the combined fleet a lot bigger and under the overall command of Adm. Petrarch! this could be the fleet that petrach was talking about! The number of casualties just does not add up! Even if you had only destroyrs present which isw imposible they must of had cruiser and corvettes !

The shivans have no problem warping in random ravana's, cains, and molochs as shown by the several missions where you're participating in helping to evacuate capella a little safer.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on August 22, 2007, 01:02:31 pm
The shivans have no problem warping in random ravana's, cains, and molochs as shown by the several missions where you're participating in helping to evacuate capella a little safer.

What do you mean? Even Terrans and Vasudans do the same. Only difference: they prefer to keep their destroyers far from the battlefield. But in FreeSpace 1, the Galatea was oftentimes sortied without no apparent reason.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Snail on August 22, 2007, 03:09:07 pm
I didn't say the ending cutscene, i said the last mission. And no **** there's **** load of ships, there's a convoy with civillian vessels and military vessels.

The ending cut and the last mission were in the same area.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: AlphaOne on August 22, 2007, 05:52:43 pm
Snail you are talking to me about logic about an enemy that defies all comon sense logic...! I men they blow up a frikking start sistem just so that they can war uot or something?? I mean come on!


Logic does not enter into the equation since it would be insane ilogical and plain idiotic concentrate more then 100 warships in one sistem to halt an anemy which clearely has no intention of leaving the sistem. I mean come on you must be joking!


If you want to stop them just blocade the reaking nodes or colapse them but you DO NOT send all of your fleet to be presumably destroyer by imaginary 100 or more destroyers and hundreds upon hundreds of cruisers and corvettes!
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Hades on August 22, 2007, 06:11:19 pm
I cannot read your post because they are to unintelligible.No offense. :P
Besides the ships were in Capella Before the Invasion.They stayed there to help the Civs.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Bob-san on August 22, 2007, 06:32:47 pm
By any account, the battle for Capella was lost upon the sighting of the third Sathanas. There was simply nothing the GTVA could do to stop a second or even a third--the Colossus was quite banged up... even if you kept the Big C at highest hull strength, she went around for a rampage and got battered up from that as well. By the time they saw a second Sathanas, the GTVA was very afraid. That's likely when they started drafting evacuation plans for every system, starting with another evacuation of the Nebula and followed by all systems! The GTVA would have no idea what the objectives of the Shivans was to be this time... they probably thought that the Shivans were headed back for Sol after laying waste to each and every system with multiple Sathani.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: S-99 on August 22, 2007, 08:45:52 pm
What do you mean? Even Terrans and Vasudans do the same. Only difference: they prefer to keep their destroyers far from the battlefield. But in FreeSpace 1, the Galatea was oftentimes sortied without no apparent reason.

What i meant is that the shivans can toss out cruisers and corvettes as if they were wings of fighters compared to the gtva in capella.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on August 23, 2007, 02:08:22 am
Are you sure? How you can say it? The number of Shivan cruisers and corvettes encountered in the last missions is...normal. With the NTF, things were similar.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: AlphaOne on August 23, 2007, 06:44:36 am
this is just ridiculous! The fleet was not sent to capella to evacutae the civilians! The plasnwere drawn up for the GTVA to evcuate capella the 3-rd fleet was  pulled out of capella and reinforcements were sent to help the 3-rd fleet in evacuating capella! Oh and about them not knowing what the shivans were dooing well when you have 80+ 5 km warships around the capella star well t least they are all haded that way at some poiunt you can pretty much asume they are not gooing to go after you sistems! Also tring to halt the shivans in capella would be idiotic since they would not stand any chance of dooing so! They would have better chances of inflicting damage if they went out of capella and imposed blocades!
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: TrashMan on August 23, 2007, 07:20:53 am
They must hve had some impressive blockedes in EP :nod:
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Snail on August 23, 2007, 08:28:09 am
What I don't understand is how some of you think that the Shivans have over 80 Sathanas juggernauts but fewer destroyers. It seems... Stupid. IMHO, of course.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on August 23, 2007, 11:27:31 am
There were only a few destroyers because the Shivans wanted to make Capella go Supernova. They needed the Sathanes for that. The other warships they sent were used as attrition against the GTVA fleet's movements. And to kill civilians.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Snail on August 23, 2007, 11:35:14 am
You're all weird. What makes you think the Shivans had few destroyers?
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on August 23, 2007, 11:43:17 am
In Capella. They had only a few destroyers...in Capella! They didn't want to penetrate in GTVA space with a consistent force. Everything they needed was an high number of Juggernauts to destroy Capella.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Snail on August 23, 2007, 11:45:08 am
My question is, what makes you think there are few destroyers in Capella?
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on August 23, 2007, 11:49:45 am
They didn't need so many destroyers. They just wanted to blow the star up. Three Ravanas and one or two Demons should have been enough.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Snail on August 23, 2007, 11:50:25 am
I KNOW!

But what EVIDENCE do you have that there are only 5 destroyers in Capella?
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on August 23, 2007, 11:53:26 am
The Messana, the Aquitaine and the 3rd Fleet Headquarters survived for a while. That's a valid explanation :lol:
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Snail on August 23, 2007, 11:54:07 am
Maybe the destroyers were protecting the Saths?
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on August 23, 2007, 11:55:11 am
No.

1) We don't see them in the final cutscene;

2) Destroyers escorting the Sathanes...are never mentioned;
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Snail on August 23, 2007, 11:55:56 am
Hmmm... Well we never see that many Sathanes in-game either.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on August 23, 2007, 11:57:08 am
The dots are supposed to represent many Sathanes. FRED has certain limits, remember :P
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Snail on August 23, 2007, 11:57:46 am
Ok. But just because we don't see the Ravanas doesn't mean they're not there.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on August 23, 2007, 12:00:19 pm
Helloo? The Nebiros and the Beast seem enough. And there were no other Shivan destroyers in Into the Lion's Den, for example.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Snail on August 23, 2007, 12:00:52 pm
There were only 9 Sathanes in Into the Lion's Den...
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on August 23, 2007, 12:03:39 pm
And two Rakshasas, plus the Nebiros. An awesome Shivan presence. There could have been other Shivan destroyers with the Sathanes. They could have been added without problems...
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Snail on August 23, 2007, 12:04:08 pm
The Nebiros arrived at the last moment.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Ghostavo on August 23, 2007, 12:06:01 pm
They didn't need so many destroyers. They just wanted to blow the star up. Three Ravanas and one or two Demons should have been enough.

How do you know they just wanted Capella to go nova? What makes you think that if left without oposition they wouldn't have ventured further into GTVA space?

Also, each time a Sathanas is sighted in GTVA space ingame, it had a destroyer close by. The first Sathanas had a Demon following it. The Sathanas that went after the Colossus had a Ravana going after the Colossus too just a few seconds before.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Snail on August 23, 2007, 12:08:18 pm
How do you know they just wanted Capella to go nova? What makes you think that if left without oposition they wouldn't have ventured further into GTVA space?

There were no enemy capships attempting to get through the Epsilon Pegasi node.

Also, each time a Sathanas is sighted in GTVA space ingame, it had a destroyer close by. The first Sathanas had a Demon following it. The Sathanas that went after the Colossus had a Ravana going after the Colossus too just a few seconds before.

Thanks, Ghostavo. Good point.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on August 23, 2007, 12:12:29 pm
The Nebiros arrived at the last moment.

In fact, no other Shivan destroyer attacks the 3rd Fleet Headquarters. A valid proof.

How do you know they just wanted Capella to go nova? What makes you think that if left without oposition they wouldn't have ventured further into GTVA space?

They had two choices...

1) Make Capella go supernova;

2) Penetrate in GTVA space;

They sortied an high number of Sathanes, not even Luciferi. They wanted to destroy a star, not to bombard planets.

And how could they send in an immense fleet with Capella going supernova? They simply couldn't do both things.

Also, each time a Sathanas is sighted in GTVA space ingame, it had a destroyer close by. The first Sathanas had a Demon following it. The Sathanas that went after the Colossus had a Ravana going after the Colossus too just a few seconds before.

That is more a coincidence, or a gameplay choice. :v: didn't want Bearbaiting to finish after the departure of the Sathanas. And they didn't want to send Sathanas 17 against the Colossus. The fact that two Shivan destroyers preceed/follow a Sathanas is a coincidence.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Ghostavo on August 23, 2007, 12:22:05 pm
How do you know they just wanted Capella to go nova? What makes you think that if left without oposition they wouldn't have ventured further into GTVA space?

They had two choices...

1) Make Capella go supernova;

2) Penetrate in GTVA space;

They sortied an high number of Sathanes, not even Luciferi. They wanted to destroy a star, not to bombard planets.

How do you even know they wanted Capella to go supernova? The fact that several Sathanas are rendered powerless before being destroyed by it puzzles that decision.

Quote
And how could they send in an immense fleet with Capella going supernova? They simply couldn't do both things.

Then why do ships continue to enter Capella in spite of the Shivans not encountering almost any oposition?

Quote
Also, each time a Sathanas is sighted in GTVA space ingame, it had a destroyer close by. The first Sathanas had a Demon following it. The Sathanas that went after the Colossus had a Ravana going after the Colossus too just a few seconds before.

That is more a coincidence, or a gameplay choice. :v: didn't want Bearbaiting to finish after the departure of the Sathanas. And they didn't want to send Sathanas 17 against the Colossus. The fact that two Shivan destroyers preceed/follow a Sathanas is a coincidence.

If you start excusing things as "coincidences" or "gameplay choices" you get nowhere. I can also say that :v: decided not to show any more destroyers for "gameplay choices" or that they wanted the player to worry more about the 80+ Sathanas armada instead of the 100+ destroyers supporting it or that they didn't want to make BOE missions to lag the player's computer, etc...
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: TrashMan on August 23, 2007, 12:29:46 pm
What were those Saths doing for 3 days around Capella then, if not powering up their uber-weapon?

It would be extreemly idiotic to send in a fleet in a systems that about to be vaporized by you. It's like USA sending troops in a city it's about to nuke.

Granted, shivans show absolutely no regard for their own lives.. :wtf:
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on August 23, 2007, 12:30:58 pm
How do you even know they wanted Capella to go supernova? The fact that several Sathanas are rendered powerless before being destroyed by it puzzles that decision.

The loss of those Sathanes was either unexpected or expected. In any case, the Shivans sacrifice their units very often.

Then why do ships continue to enter Capella in spite of the Shivans not encountering almost any oposition?

There's an opposition! The Colossus and many other GTVA vessels, plus plenties of fighter and bomber squadrons. And some Shivan forces attempted to penetrate in GTVA space. It wasn't an invasion force, they simply wanted to kill civilians. Or they simply realized that remaining in Capella, with the imminent supernova, was stupid.

And who knows what the freighters that appear in Their Finest Hour were carrying? Maybe something that would have ensured the survival of the Sathanes that powered down.

If you start excusing things as "coincidences" or "gameplay choices" you get nowhere. I can also say that :v: decided not to show any more destroyers for "gameplay choices" or that they wanted the player to worry more about the 80+ Sathanas armada instead of the 100+ destroyers supporting it or that they didn't want to make BOE missions to lag the player's computer, etc...

But Petrarch mentioned an big Juggernaut fleet, and nothing else. This leads me to think that the number of Shivan destroyers in Capella was "regular". Nothing out of the ordinary.

What were those Saths doing for 3 days around Capella then, if not powering up their uber-weapon?

It would be extreemly idiot to send in a fleet in a systems that about to be vaporized by you. It's like USA sending troops in a city it's about to nuke.

Granted, sivans show absolutely no regard for their own lives.. :wtf:

 :yes:
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Ghostavo on August 23, 2007, 12:40:32 pm
How do you even know they wanted Capella to go supernova? The fact that several Sathanas are rendered powerless before being destroyed by it puzzles that decision.

The loss of those Sathanes was either unexpected or expected. In any case, the Shivans sacrifice their units very often.

Then they also sacrificed every other ship in system. Some of which entered the system when there was no need to.

Quote
Then why do ships continue to enter Capella in spite of the Shivans not encountering almost any oposition?

There's an opposition! The Colossus and many other GTVA vessels, plus plenties of fighter and bomber squadrons. And some Shivan forces attempted to penetrate in GTVA space. It wasn't an invasion force, they simply wanted to kill civilians. Or they simply realized that remaining in Capella, with the imminent supernova, was stupid.

And who knows what the freighters that appear in Their Finest Hour were carrying? Maybe something that would have ensured the survival of the Sathanes that powered down.

The GTVA fleet wasn't engaging the Shivans directly. Hence there was no oposition. Unless you plan to tell me the GTVA fleet were engaging the Sathanas armada.

Quote
If you start excusing things as "coincidences" or "gameplay choices" you get nowhere. I can also say that :v: decided not to show any more destroyers for "gameplay choices" or that they wanted the player to worry more about the 80+ Sathanas armada instead of the 100+ destroyers supporting it or that they didn't want to make BOE missions to lag the player's computer, etc...

But Petrarch mentioned an big Juggernaut fleet, and nothing else. This leads me to think that the number of Shivan destroyers in Capella was "regular". Nothing out of the ordinary.

Petrarch also says "We've halted the Shivan advance.". And I don't see you mentioning that when you say the Shivans didn't want to venture further into GTVA space.

Regarding the destroyer count in Capella, you have a 80+ juggernaught fleet and a 80+ destroyer fleet. Would you focus on the larger threat or on the smaller threat? When he says a 80+ juggernaught fleet he must be including it's support vessels. He ignores the fighters on the Sathanas' fighterbays for a reason...
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on August 23, 2007, 01:12:54 pm
1) Again, they don't really care about their losses. If losing a Moloch means taking down an Argo, the Shivans are fine;

2) But the Shivans realized that there was no opposition when they entered the system. They chose their assault force at least a few days before. And they couldn't monitor Terran or Vasudan movements in other places than the nebula;

3) Because the attacking force, though small for Shivan standards, was fearsome for the GTVA;

4) We can't be sure of the fact that there were 80+ destroyers. The immense number of spacecraft at the disposal of the Sathanas fleet was enough to irritate the GTVA. If there were so many destroyers, why do we see only two of them in the last missions? A Demon or a Ravana could have attacked the Bastion, for example. And we know that the Bastion's group was decimated by fighter and bomber wings, possibly launched from the Juggernauts.

Command would have hardly accepted the risk of sending in the Bastions with 80+ Shivan destroyers lurking around. The Shivan fleet had two purposes: to destroy civilians and to engage as many GTVA forces as possible, so that the Supernova would have done the rest.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Ghostavo on August 23, 2007, 01:28:09 pm
2) But the Shivans realized that there was no opposition when they entered the system. They chose their assault force at least a few days before. And they couldn't monitor Terran or Vasudan movements in other places than the nebula;

How do you know that?

Quote
4) We can't be sure of the fact that there were 80+ destroyers. The immense number of spacecraft at the disposal of the Sathanas fleet was enough to irritate the GTVA. If there were so many destroyers, why do we see only two of them in the last missions? A Demon or a Ravana could have attacked the Bastion, for example. And we know that the Bastion's group was decimated by fighter and bomber wings, possibly launched from the Juggernauts.

Command would have hardly accepted the risk of sending in the Bastions with 80+ Shivan destroyers lurking around. The Shivan fleet had two purposes: to destroy civilians and to engage as many GTVA forces as possible, so that the Supernova would have done the rest.

If there was a fleet trying to protect the refugees in the last missions why don't we see it?

Also, why would Command hardly accepted the risk of sending in the Bastion with 80+ destroyers around if they accepted it when there was already a definite 80+ juggernaughts in the system? Command would have to deploy the Bastion no matter what the risk was. The survival of the entire GTVA was on the line.

Also, how do you know the Shivans motives?
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: TrashMan on August 23, 2007, 02:06:09 pm
Petrarch also says "We've halted the Shivan advance.". And I don't see you mentioning that when you say the Shivans didn't want to venture further into GTVA space.

Of course...by collapsing the node the shivans can't come... That's what's ment under "shivan advance"..not that they had a fleet of 100 destroyers. For they had no idea what the shivans were planing. As far as GTVA knew, the shivans were doing "something" and that Sath armada could rush in their core systems as soon as tehy were finished with the something..

IF the shivans really planned to blow up the star they would NEED the jugs in there to blow it up, however, they wouldn't need destroyers..what for? The jugs can handle themselves and have more than enough fighters and bomber on board. Some other shivan ships were in the system, probably to harass the GTVA, to keep them busy while the Saths were doing their job, bit no where is it even indicated it's a big destroyer armada.

Shivans may have no problem with sacrificing their own, but not even they are crazy enough to sacrifice 10 times more ships than they actually need.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Ghostavo on August 23, 2007, 02:15:33 pm
Petrarch also says "We've halted the Shivan advance.". And I don't see you mentioning that when you say the Shivans didn't want to venture further into GTVA space.

Of course...by collapsing the node the shivans can't come... That's what's ment under "shivan advance"..not that they had a fleet of 100 destroyers. For they had no idea what the shivans were planing. As far as GTVA knew, the shivans were doing "something" and that Sath armada could rush in their core systems as soon as tehy were finished with the something..

If they halted the shivan advance, it would mean there was an advance to begin with. Hence they may have had ventured further if nothing was done at all.

Quote
IF the shivans really planned to blow up the star they would NEED the jugs in there to blow it up, however, they wouldn't need destroyers..what for? The jugs can handle themselves and have more than enough fighters and bomber on board. Some other shivan ships were in the system, probably to harass the GTVA, to keep them busy while the Saths were doing their job, bit no where is it even indicated it's a big destroyer armada.

There is also no indication of a 3rd fleet (and possibly more) being blown to bits, but we still assume it to be in the system. And since the GTVA avoided the Sathanas and the Sathanas avoided the GTVA it means someone had to have been engaging the GTVA and gaining the upper hand.

Also, if you mention a big ship chances are you also are mentioning it's escort, the contents of it's fighterbays, etc... Unless you also believe that the 80+ Sathanas fleet was fighterless.

Quote
Shivans may have no problem with sacrificing their own, but not even they are crazy enough to sacrifice 10 times more ships than they actually need.

Then why engage the GTVA at all? Why even launch fighters and bombers if they could have continued to stare at Capella?
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: bluelotus on August 23, 2007, 03:08:23 pm
Quote
If they halted the shivan advance, it would mean there was an advance to begin with. Hence they may have had ventured further if nothing was done at all.

Wouldn't you call 80 jugs marching into Capella a shivan advance?
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Ghostavo on August 23, 2007, 03:17:53 pm
It's not much of an advance if all they do is stare at the nearest star.

Also, the "we" part of "We've halted the Shivan advance" would then be a bit egotistical.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: TrashMan on August 23, 2007, 03:29:25 pm
If they halted the shivan advance, it would mean there was an advance to begin with. Hence they may have had ventured further if nothing was done at all.

The 80 sathanases marching into the next system and blowing IT up IS the advance. And the jugs fighters and bombers weren't sitting idel either - tehy harrased the GTVA trought Capella. THAT is the advance.


Quote
Quote
IF the shivans really planned to blow up the star they would NEED the jugs in there to blow it up, however, they wouldn't need destroyers..what for? The jugs can handle themselves and have more than enough fighters and bomber on board. Some other shivan ships were in the system, probably to harass the GTVA, to keep them busy while the Saths were doing their job, bit no where is it even indicated it's a big destroyer armada.

There is also no indication of a 3rd fleet (and possibly more) being blown to bits, but we still assume it to be in the system. And since the GTVA avoided the Sathanas and the Sathanas avoided the GTVA it means someone had to have been engaging the GTVA and gaining the upper hand.

Also, if you mention a big ship chances are you also are mentioning it's escort, the contents of it's fighterbays, etc... Unless you also believe that the 80+ Sathanas fleet was fighterless.

It's HQ was in Capella, where else would the 3rd Fleet be? :wtf:

Also, when mentioning a destroyer/jug, it's fighter complements is automaticly included as it's a integral part of that ship.
Any extra escorts are NOT.
If you recall, GTVA often sends destroyers alone (fighters included) and sometimes it sends aditional ships with it.


Quote
Then why engage the GTVA at all? Why even launch fighters and bombers if they could have continued to stare at Capella?

To keep the GTVA from interefering with the staring? Maby they just enjoy causing havoc.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on August 23, 2007, 04:39:01 pm
If there was a fleet trying to protect the refugees in the last missions why don't we see it?

Battle Of Endor SyndromeTM?

To keep the GTVA from interefering with the staring? Maby they just enjoy causing havoc.

:yes:

FreeSpace is a game, the bad guys are all supposed to play their role. Supernova or not, they attack the GTVA. Full stop.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Snail on August 23, 2007, 05:34:38 pm
If there was a fleet trying to protect the refugees in the last missions why don't we see it?

We do, in the ending cutscene.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: TrashMan on August 23, 2007, 05:40:35 pm
Given that the GTVA was pulling out of Capella, and the last transports were allready on their way, I'd assume the bulk of hte GTVA fleet was either on the other side of the node, blockading, or on their way back.. probably both
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: AlphaOne on August 23, 2007, 06:25:49 pm
Agreed! also i  believe that petrach was peaking a lot more in general when refering to We've stopped..." then anyone believes i mean i believe it is a lot more plausible he was refering to the GTVA meaning terrans and the vasudans and not a pecific fleet !

This i believe would of been a more acurate asumption of what he meant to say! Something like "We terrans and vasudans stopped...." but that would be a lot more boring and not as dramatic! Remember it has to be dramatic and full of well dont know the word fo it .......tension or something!
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Ghostavo on August 23, 2007, 08:03:43 pm
If there was a fleet trying to protect the refugees in the last missions why don't we see it?

Battle Of Endor SyndromeTM?

If there was a fleet trying to protect the refugees in the last missions why don't we see it?

We do, in the ending cutscene.

You may like to read what that was responding to instead of replying out of context.

Sarcasm is lost these days...
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Gamma_Draconis on August 23, 2007, 10:07:59 pm
What I don't understand is why were there 2 Shivan cruisers attempting to leave the system? Remember at the end of the last mission, there were 2 Shivan cruisers trying to escape the system as well.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Snail on August 24, 2007, 06:35:32 am
You may like to read what that was responding to instead of replying out of context.

Ooops, sorry.

What I don't understand is why were there 2 Shivan cruisers attempting to leave the system? Remember at the end of the last mission, there were 2 Shivan cruisers trying to escape the system as well.

The Melchom, Bane and Thanatos.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on August 25, 2007, 04:55:17 pm
The Melchom, Bane and Thanatos.

The Thanatos was engaging the Lemnos. It wasn't attempting to penetrate in GTVA space...
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: AlphaOne on August 26, 2007, 03:49:57 am
well to put it another way building a collie right after the loss of capella would be a bad idea since there are some major problems to take care of! REmember the GTVA just ended 2 wars!

Amybe not in the first 5 or 7 years after capella but after that they would surely try to make new collie class warships since they have proven they can be a very very powerfull hip that the GTVA will definetely need! I think personaly they will split they ship classes in 2 ! One with huge ofensive capabilaties but with limited defence ! And one with huge defensive capabilaties but limited ofensive capabilaties. and make some sort of fleet out of these 2 classes! Also there would still be an allroud warship class but much more fewer then the ones above!
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on August 26, 2007, 04:02:47 am
No. They would have needed a new uber-warship immediately. In case of need of money, the GTVA would have taken care of private associations and "Rockefellers". Is the GTVA the most important authority? As Niccolò Machiavelli said, "Tutto è lecito". If forcing people to pay more money means having a hope of survival, one such choice can't be blamed.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Snail on August 26, 2007, 04:20:00 am
No. They would have needed a new uber-warship immediately. In case of need of money, the GTVA would have taken care of private associations and "Rockefellers". Is the GTVA the most important authority? As Niccolò Machiavelli said, "Tutto è lecito". If forcing people to pay more money means having a hope of survival, one such choice can't be blamed.

Why would they need an ubership immediately? The only threat is ****ing bandits! Forcing people to pay 10x their tax will put people in poverty. It may be for the "greater good", but raising taxes to build an uber ship just won't do.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on August 26, 2007, 04:24:43 am
Because another Shivan invasion was imminent. We can't believe that the Shivans come back after 30 or so years. And 10x? All civilians? No. Just hit the rich population, the ones who waste their money. Poor civilians shouldn't be affected.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Snail on August 26, 2007, 04:27:15 am
Because another Shivan invasion was imminent. We can't believe that the Shivans come back after 30 or so years. And 10x? All civilians? No. Just hit the rich population, the ones who waste their money. Poor civilians shouldn't be affected.

I still wouldn't be happy. If there was a (rebellious) movement, I'd join (so I don't have to) pay extra tax.

God, didn't you read the PI synopsis? This is exactly what caused the PCA! The GTVA wanted to make their fleet bigger, so they made the Strategic Defense Endeavor which taxed everyone and then people got unhappy and started the PCA!
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on August 26, 2007, 04:45:45 am
I take in consideration only canon events. You mentioned the PCA, I can mention Steadfast's AP and SthCrs' SLA. But I base my arguments on the main FreeSpace campaign.

The GTVA needs a better fleet, the GTVA has to spend a lot of money on weapons. A rebellion contained in a short amount of time is always better than a complete annihilation caused by the Shivans.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Snail on August 26, 2007, 05:04:04 am
I mentioned the PCA as an example.

Taxing people is not the way after a huge long war. Making people unhappy isn't getting you anywhere.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: TrashMan on August 26, 2007, 05:07:43 am
Because another Shivan invasion was imminent. We can't believe that the Shivans come back after 30 or so years. And 10x? All civilians? No. Just hit the rich population, the ones who waste their money. Poor civilians shouldn't be affected.

I still wouldn't be happy. If there was a (rebellious) movement, I'd join (so I don't have to) pay extra tax.

God, didn't you read the PI synopsis? This is exactly what caused the PCA! The GTVA wanted to make their fleet bigger, so they made the Strategic Defense Endeavor which taxed everyone and then people got unhappy and started the PCA!

f*** the people if they think like that. Remove ALL fleet assets from the rebelius systems, let them fend off the pirates and shivans themselves, the b******!
The shivans could find anyother way into GTVA space at any time. Tomorrow, ina month, year, a decade or even a century. Who knows?
But if you go easy thinking the shivans will give you 30-50 years of time, you DESERVE to be wiped out from the galaxy for your stupidity.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Snail on August 26, 2007, 05:11:45 am
You earn 5,000. The government takes away 4,750. You and your family starve.

"WE ARE GOING TO HELP ALL THE CITIZENS OF THE GTVA, BEHOLD AS WE UNVEIL THE GTVSJ COLOSSUS MARK II!!!!!! OMG!!!"

What do you do?
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: TrashMan on August 26, 2007, 05:17:50 am
Sacrifices must be made...I would be willing to forgo all luxury and would be happy with the basics (any kind of food, roof over my head, water) if it means SURVIVAL FOR MY WHOLE RACE.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Snail on August 26, 2007, 05:42:59 am
People don't think that way. If the British government began supertaxing so that they would win the war against the Humbuggs who had nuclear bombs, the British people would demonstrate, riot, etc. etc. For the GTVA, it's on a much larger scale. Taxing people for making a MEGA-UBER-SUPER juggernaut, of which the first of its class had become a complete catastrophe, is not a good idea.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on August 26, 2007, 05:52:51 am
I mentioned the PCA as an example.

Starvation caused by taxes and "oppression", and other classic rules... No offense, but I don't want to take it in consideration.

You earn 5,000. The government takes away 4,750. You and your family starve.

I earn 5,000 and the governments takes away 500-1,500. I continue to love and protect my family.

A guy earns 450,000 and the government takes away 200,000-300,000. It can be done without starving a family.

Sacrifices must be made...I would be willing to forgo all luxury and would be happy with the basics (any kind of food, roof over my head, water) if it means SURVIVAL FOR MY WHOLE RACE.

:yes:

People don't think that way. If the British government began supertaxing so that they would win the war against the Humbuggs who had nuclear bombs, the British people would demonstrate, riot, etc. etc.

Humbuggs = Argentinians ? = Germans ? = Italians ?  :wtf:

Anyways, we're talking about another Species, capable of destroying stars. You can't compare the Shivans to those...uhm..."Humbuggs".
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Snail on August 26, 2007, 06:15:30 am
'kay fine, why don't we just stop paying the workers? Then we're all happy that way.

(*cough*Altair Phoenixes*cough*)
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on August 26, 2007, 06:34:09 am
'kay fine, why don't we just stop paying the workers? Then we're all happy that way.

(*cough*Altair Phoenixes*cough*)

Ops. That's an exception.  :blah:

Rich people can be hit, they don't need all the money they have.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Hades on August 26, 2007, 07:00:35 am
Yes, rich people have to much money, and should give, "some of tat dough" to less fortunate.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: TrashMan on August 26, 2007, 07:25:29 am
People don't think that way. If the British government began supertaxing so that they would win the war against the Humbuggs who had nuclear bombs, the British people would demonstrate, riot, etc. etc. For the GTVA, it's on a much larger scale. Taxing people for making a MEGA-UBER-SUPER juggernaut, of which the first of its class had become a complete catastrophe, is not a good idea.

Except a coulpe of terrorists can in no way be compared to a thousads of years old, xenocidal race that's been wiping out civilizations. :doubt:


And nobody is going to tax ppl till starvation...you make sure people have WHAT THEY NEED.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Snail on August 26, 2007, 07:30:02 am
I would just reinstate slavery. So many problems salved, just like that.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Hades on August 26, 2007, 07:36:54 am
Yea I don't think they will think of that.
But they could do that to HOL and pirate inmates.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Snail on August 26, 2007, 07:40:20 am
There aren't too many HoL left... ANY inmates can do it too.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: TrashMan on August 26, 2007, 07:54:35 am
Nah...robotic worker machines...lots of htem..tehy don't eat, don't sleep, jsut work, work, work.....the GTVA will pump out some collies in no time...of course the ai robots will rebell as they allways do and seek to *exterminate all humans*... but if you got a dozen collies, who the cares? We'll just vaporize them.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Snail on August 26, 2007, 07:58:20 am
Nah...robotic worker machines...lots of htem..tehy don't eat, don't sleep, jsut work, work, work.....the GTVA will pump out some collies in no time...of course the ai robots will rebell as they allways do and seek to *exterminate all humans*... but if you got a dozen collies, who the cares? We'll just vaporize them.

Robots.... Hmm... Yeah. Robots could work.

But the Colossus was a disaster. I doubt anyone would like to see more of them.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Hades on August 26, 2007, 08:23:36 am
But what if the Robots want to kill the GTVA like robots always do?
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Snail on August 26, 2007, 08:26:13 am
It won't happen.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: TrashMan on August 26, 2007, 08:40:18 am
If hte rebell, jsut inplant a virus that makes htem thinks shivans are their masters, so they go after them...
OR
the GTVA will create the Terran version of shivans...the robots will want to *EXTERMINATE SHIVANS*
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Hades on August 26, 2007, 08:41:04 am
Good idea, now who wants to model a Shivan and give it Terran textures? :P
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Snail on August 26, 2007, 08:43:20 am
Ok put it this way. If the robots start trying to kill people, you turn them off. In fact, they won't start killing people if their only order is to "MOVE ARM THERE PUT THERE MOVE ARM PUT THERE MOVE ARM PUT THERE MOVE ARM PUT THERE MOVE ARM WELD WELD WELD WELD." :doubt:
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: TrashMan on August 26, 2007, 08:45:10 am
replace that commands with


"move ship there...move ship there...aim gun there...KILL KILL KILL!"
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Hades on August 26, 2007, 08:46:49 am
replace that commands with


"move ship there...move ship there...aim gun there...KILL KILL KILL!"

No thanks. :P
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Snail on August 26, 2007, 08:58:11 am
replace that commands with

"move ship there...move ship there...aim gun there...KILL KILL KILL!"

Yeah, but they won't miraculously reprogram themselves, will they?

But if the someone wants them to, they CAN make them start killing people by giving it like Amazon AI or something.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on August 26, 2007, 09:33:29 am
Wow. I go away(Gran Prix, Forza Ferrari!!!)and I find a total and pointless spamming. What are you talking about now...robots?!? :doubt:
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Gamma_Draconis on August 26, 2007, 09:43:43 am
Actually, if you watch the Collie cutscene, there appears to be a bunch of robots building it. I'm not sure if their manned or not though.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on August 26, 2007, 09:56:30 am
They may be unmanned, but it has nothing to do with the main subject of this thread. And in FreeSpace, drones aren't that smart(GTDr Amazon). It is unrealistic(how can drones be stupid in 2335-2367?).
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: TrashMan on August 26, 2007, 09:58:19 am
WEll, if htey were comissioned by COMMAND...  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on August 26, 2007, 10:16:19 am
Command? Are weapons and ships commissioned by the highest authorities of the GTVA? :wtf:
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Snail on August 26, 2007, 10:38:19 am
WEll, if htey were comissioned by COMMAND...  :rolleyes:

*facepalms*

No. No. Just not another one of those idiot **** jokes, okay?

They may be unmanned, but it has nothing to do with the main subject of this thread. And in FreeSpace, drones aren't that smart(GTDr Amazon). It is unrealistic(how can drones be stupid in 2335-2367?).

They're training drones.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Agent_Koopa on August 26, 2007, 10:40:49 am
Let's get back on topic, shall we?

I believe another Colossus would be built, assuming the GTVA has managed to withstand the financial/political impact. Capella had a relatively high population, meaning a large number of displaced persons. After a massive Shivan attack and the loss of the system, there would definitely be squabbling over the GTVA's ability to fend off the Shivans, and about what to do in case of another attack. If the GTVA could quell fears and maintain control, then it's not far-fetched to believe that they would construct a second Colossus, as another symbol of Terran-Vasudan co-operation, and also to protect the populace.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Snail on August 26, 2007, 10:44:21 am
The Colossus was a disaster. A catastrophe. I wouldn't want to see another one.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on August 26, 2007, 10:59:25 am
They may be unmanned, but it has nothing to do with the main subject of this thread. And in FreeSpace, drones aren't that smart(GTDr Amazon). It is unrealistic(how can drones be stupid in 2335-2367?).

They're training drones.

So? Training drones should be fearsome opponents.

The Colossus was a disaster. A catastrophe. I wouldn't want to see another one.

Even Goobie says that the Colossus wasn't a disaster. It put an end to the NTF rebellion, it destroyed the first Sathanas...it distracted the Shivans so that the Bastion could collapse the Epsilon Pegasi jump node...

Call it a disaster :doubt:
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Snail on August 26, 2007, 11:00:58 am
It may have been "successful" but the deaths of so many people isn't a success by any stretch of the imagination.

How many people are on the Colossus? How many people died there? A lot. It's a disaster because those people died, NOT BECAUSE IT FAILED TO DESTROY THE SATH.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Hades on August 26, 2007, 11:10:48 am
It kills way more people than it lost Snail.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on August 26, 2007, 11:20:06 am
Uhm:

NTD Repulse

NTD Andronicus

NTCv Hawkwood

NTCv Danton

NTCv Congreve

NTC Camisard

NTC Vanguard

SJ Sathanas

SD Beast

Also, take in consideration this: thanks to the Colossus, the GTVA didn't lose many assets. How many GTVA ships would have been lost when fighting the other ships(even without considering the Sathanas)?
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Snail on August 26, 2007, 12:00:28 pm
You don't get what I'm saying.

NTD Repulse

NTD Andronicus

NTCv Hawkwood

NTCv Danton

NTCv Congreve

NTC Camisard

NTC Vanguard

SJ Sathanas

SD Beast

Also, take in consideration this: thanks to the Colossus, the GTVA didn't lose many assets. How many GTVA ships would have been lost when fighting the other ships(even without considering the Sathanas)?

Yes, it killed those.



BUT HOW MANY PEOPLE WERE KILLED WHEN IT WENT DOWN!!!?!?!??!?!?!????!!???!?!!!!!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Lots. Many of probably the most elite people died on the Colossus. This is a bad thing. The Colossus is a symbol of death and a grim reminder of the Second Shivan War.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on August 26, 2007, 12:06:03 pm
But the Colossus saved many hundred thousand lives! What if, in case of stalemate, the GTVA was forced to send ground troops to end the NTF? Million, if not billions, of casualties. Even civilians. With the Colossus, Bosch had no choice but to try to enter the Nebula. Without the Colossus, the rebels would have fought, inflicting casualties.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Hades on August 26, 2007, 12:12:01 pm
The Colossus had 30k people IRRC.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: AlphaOne on August 26, 2007, 12:12:57 pm
I say that is absolute bull****! There is no way in hell the GTVA would stop buildin collies because of that! If you wanna go that way then how about we retire and stop building Hecates Deimos Orions....etc. since the GTVA lost a lot more of those!

Also has anyone considered the fact that the GTVA might of built or started building another Collie after the first one was done or imediately after the start of construction of the first Collie!

Also the collie was in so many ways superior to the Sath it makes the Sath look like a bad joke! The collie was truely a masterpiece of engeniering! sure they could of done a better job with its reactors but nevertheless it was superb! What was not superb was the fact that the Collie did not have beams equal or at least close in power to those of the Sath!

with beams that powerfull...i have just one thing to say....."80 + juggs have taken position around the capella sun.."


GTDStupidity(Read GTD Hecate class that gets in front of the Sath)"Command we have just reached Capella er......where did you say those sath were ...? all we read is a whole lot of debries fields"


I mean the Collie could bring to bear about 1 dozen heavy beams Imagine if they were even at 80% power as those BFReds.....ownage ppl ownage....!


also if every warship had a kill score board like that of the collie then i see the GTVA kicking the shivan er.......legs since i dont think they have asses..do they??
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Hades on August 26, 2007, 12:15:10 pm
The Colossus (Not Colli) was weaker.The Sathanas did 4 damage with 1 BFred.The BFreds fired every 5 seconds.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: AlphaOne on August 26, 2007, 12:19:28 pm
You dont get it ! The achilies heal for the GTVA is not that its ships are weaker design wise when compared to the shivan one in fact almost all of the GTVA warships are better design wise then the shivan ones! The problem is that the GTVA does not have any real beam cannons that can compare to the shivan ones! If they had beams even a 80% the power of those BFReds then the Colossu would have won hands down even if it had to engage up to 4 sdath at a time! Remember the GTVA has a longer range in its meabs then the shivans!
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Hades on August 26, 2007, 12:23:13 pm
4 Sathanas' would Desamate A Colossus with beams 80% as strong.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: TrashMan on August 26, 2007, 12:32:20 pm
I wonder why nobody on the Colossus used escape pods :confused:

They were damaged, and you don't need your whole crew fora heroic last stand. Petachs evacuated most of his crew from the Aquitaince, so why were the Colosuss officers so utterly stupid?

A collie with all BFGReens woudl really be somthin allright :nod:
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Snail on August 26, 2007, 12:42:40 pm
I give up.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Agent_Koopa on August 26, 2007, 12:57:38 pm
BUT HOW MANY PEOPLE WERE KILLED WHEN IT WENT DOWN!!!?!?!??!?!?!????!!???!?!!!!!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Lots. Many of probably the most elite people died on the Colossus. This is a bad thing. The Colossus is a symbol of death and a grim reminder of the Second Shivan War.

Okay, seriously, I don't know what kind of spin doctors you hire, but they really suck.

*ahem*

In an event we remember with great sadness, the GTVA Colossus perished under the overwhelming might of the Second Shivan Incursion. But today, we prove we can move beyond that. The GTVA (umm...) Hyperion will once more be a shining symbol of Terran-Vasudan goodwill, peace, and combined might. Like its forebear, the Hyperion will represent the union of our peoples, a union that can resist the Shivans.



There, how's that?
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Gamma_Draconis on August 26, 2007, 01:11:36 pm
Well, I guess all the men and women on the Collie were the best of the best so they felt dying with their ship would make them twice as heroic. But really, I really wished the Collie would have rammed that Sathanas. It would have been so much more epic.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on August 26, 2007, 01:18:58 pm
Are you sure that they were the best of the best? I know, it may seem logic...but were all members of the crew "the best of the best"? The Colossus should have been an SOC warship, then.

Keep in mind that it was a secret project, so:

1) The very elite crewmen of the GTVA were secretly reassigned to it;

2) Assigning 30,000 people to a warship without making someone suspicious would have been difficult;

The Colossus was quickly dispatched against the NTF first and the Shivans then, we can't be sure of the fact that more enlisted personnel was transfered after "The Sixth Wonder".

Basically...the GTVA lost thousands of excellent crewmen, not actually the best 30,000 crewmen of the GTVA. And what about the fighter wings? Should the player have been transfered to the Colossus? No! The very elite squadron was the Blue Lions, and it was based on the Aquitaine!
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: BloodEagle on August 26, 2007, 02:17:59 pm
They shouldn't even bother building capital ships, I can think of four solutions that are far more effective.

Massive fleets made of nothing but bombers:

It's always bothered me how easily a capital ship can be taken down by bombers, but that's the way the ball bounces. Send 100 bombers at a sathanas from behind, 'nough said.

Unmanned missile warfare:

Take a meson bomb or something stronger, and put two separate engines on it. One engine is used to warp into a system, the other to make an intra-system jump. Send a dozen of them at a capital ship, and you've won the day.

Junk/Asteroid warfare:

Collect the debris of old capital ships, place a massive engine on the back, and ram away.

Dyson Sphere-ish defense:

Create a perfect sphere that can be placed over a jump node, anything warping in will be destroyed instantly.

------

As far as the whole "but the Shivans were doing this" argument goes.... We have no knowledge of their society. Any attempt to understand such an unusual species is doomed to failure.

------

Quote from: Snail
Think of it like 9/11. Why haven't the US built another World Trade Center at that spot? It would carry too many bad memories.

Firstly, construction in the United States has gone at a ridiculously slow pace since the '60s or so.

Secondly, http://www.projectrebirth.org/about/index.html
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Hammer of HLP 0wnage on August 26, 2007, 02:42:12 pm
/me taps hammer...
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Hades on August 26, 2007, 02:42:59 pm
Uhh oh... :shaking:
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: akenbosch on August 26, 2007, 02:45:42 pm
he's back.

and we are back on topic.

would the GTVA build a new collosus, or build a small collosus with 3 times the turrets?
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Hades on August 26, 2007, 02:46:41 pm
Fs2 cannot support a Colossus with 189 turrets. :P
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: akenbosch on August 26, 2007, 02:47:20 pm
thats what we have the SCP for.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Hades on August 26, 2007, 02:48:01 pm
With SCP it can only support 100 turrets.
Off topic AGAIN.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: akenbosch on August 26, 2007, 02:49:16 pm
the SCP would burst into the GTVA, raise max turrets too 500, and have a team of modelers come in and build the tiny-collosus-with-189 turrets. problem solved  :p
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Hades on August 26, 2007, 02:50:26 pm
Why would they make a weaker smaller Colossus (Which I know you mean yours) Than a bigger more HP Colossus.We don't want a second Colossus at this time, we want a HTL Colossus. :P
BTW If it is a Colossus MK2 it will be the same size if not bigger. :P
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on August 26, 2007, 02:59:38 pm
Ha hem, we're talking about a realistic environment. No Alpha 1 owns all jokes, no Command is stupid jokes...and no model upgrade of the Colossus jokes.

Hey! Goober's second account! :lol:

Massive fleets made of nothing but bombers:

It's always bothered me how easily a capital ship can be taken down by bombers, but that's the way the ball bounces. Send 100 bombers at a sathanas from behind, 'nough said.

This concept is valid only ingame. A massive ship is much better. And the Sathanas has hundreds of fighters.


Another Colossus would have probably been built.

Why would they make a weaker smaller Colossus (Which I know you mean yours) Than a bigger more HP Colossus.We don't want a second Colossus at this time, we want a HTL Colossus. :P
BTW If it is a Colossus MK2 it will be the same size if not bigger. :P

Stop spamming, please! There's the Hammer lurking around...and this thread is a very good one!  :hopping:
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Kie99 on August 26, 2007, 03:51:27 pm
Dyson Sphere-ish defense:

Create a perfect sphere that can be placed over a jump node, anything warping in will be destroyed instantly.

That's actually a brilliant idea, would make for a **** game though.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on August 26, 2007, 04:27:52 pm
There are mines in Cardinal Spear, if I remember well.

And this concept was also used in Colony Wars ;7
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: TrashMan on August 26, 2007, 04:37:50 pm
I never figured out how those mines worked ya know....hm...should check the weapons.tbl  :nod:

Anyway, anything that makes it harder for a enemy to come trough a node is a step in a right direction. minefield, debris field, static defense cannons, long-range missiles and guns...arrange all that around a node and NOTHING...NOTHING will come true
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Hades on August 26, 2007, 04:45:35 pm
Shivan:Well were almost there.
Shivan:Emerging from subspace.
Shivan:Mice hull intergerty at 50, 40, 20, 1, well were dea......

 :D
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on August 26, 2007, 05:12:47 pm
I don't know how normal mines work...

Other stuff can be activated with is distance < X and self destruct...
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Sarafan on August 26, 2007, 05:28:56 pm
I never figured out how those mines worked ya know....hm...should check the weapons.tbl  :nod:

Anyway, anything that makes it harder for a enemy to come trough a node is a step in a right direction. minefield, debris field, static defense cannons, long-range missiles and guns...arrange all that around a node and NOTHING...NOTHING will come true

Blockading a node with that is a good idea, first a layer of mines backed up by a second layer of sentry guns. The only problem is that its also easy to destroy (specially if the mines have a homing capability), if you block the node with that, send a lot of debris through it first and it'll take out at least the mines.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on August 26, 2007, 05:34:09 pm
Though JAD tought us all that we can't be sure of the entrance point and/or the orientation of a ship arriving from a subspace corridor :lol:
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: TrashMan on August 26, 2007, 05:49:21 pm
Rubbish...we can be sure of it.. any time the GTVA blckades a node enemy ships ALLWAYS come in the same direction..

Remember the NTF gauntlet?
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on August 26, 2007, 05:52:07 pm
And does the GTVA know if its forces are blockading the node on the right side?
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Bob-san on August 26, 2007, 05:58:58 pm
Yes they do--it's how they setup their fleets. It's probably something logical like you're entering or exiting the node in a strait line with the actual orientation of both jump nodes, regardless of the distance.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: TrashMan on August 26, 2007, 06:00:46 pm
Bob-san beat me to it! :hopping:

He's right.. How does the GTVA know how to set up it's mjolnirs if not the fact that there is only one possble facing when EXITING the node?
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Bob-san on August 26, 2007, 08:26:37 pm
I don't know exactly how, but the GTVA and Shivans have always sortied forces on the "correct" side of a jump node... everything from the failed "intersection" of the Iceni at the jump node (mission 2 or 3--I don't remember) to the final mission (attempting to prevent the interception of fleeing transports)... everyone has always jumped into the correct "side" of the jump node. The Mjolnirs is exactly what I was talking about--they blockaded the node correctly by setting up said Mjolnirs pointed for the exit-area of the jump node.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Talhoe on August 26, 2007, 09:10:35 pm
If you really want to solve the problem of invasions, you can always send a destroyer packed with Meson bombs into the node :D
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: AlphaOne on August 27, 2007, 12:02:48 am
I dont get it ! The colossus fired upot the sath with about 6 or 8 beam cannons or were there more of them??  With that many beam cannons almost as powerfull as the BFReds and with the added range bonus how the hell can the Colossus be defeated!

Also Also as for the Colossus MK II it would be an improved version of the first one! A few twicks and upgrades here and there to make it more manouverable or more powerfull or whatever! Perhaps if will only carry about 200 spaceships to make room for more reactors so that it does not fry its damned beam cannons and reactors when engagde in heavy combat! ( I wonder if they actualy made those reactors to be overloaded for so long) I mean sure they did it but hey those ractors took the strainf for some time before colapsing under the huge power requirments!

Also for the love of god why on earth would you place slashers ona ship that BIG ! They are absolute rubbish on such a ship this has got to be the most humonguos mistake GTVA enegniers and designers made! Just arm the damned thing with BG BFG and LRBFG!
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: S-99 on August 27, 2007, 03:05:37 am
Yes they do--it's how they setup their fleets. It's probably something logical like you're entering or exiting the node in a strait line with the actual orientation of both jump nodes, regardless of the distance.

The same vector you enter a node is the same vector you leave a node regardless of distance. There, solves everybodies problems. Why would people think that if you enter on one vector, that you'd leave subspace on some random different vector? It's retarded thinking really.

EDIT: ummm, lol, i don't put things ****ing odd in responses. In other words i'm agreeing with you bob-san since i'm using you're quote, but the way i wrote doesn't seem that way even though it's another person who has the same thoughts :)
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: TrashMan on August 27, 2007, 05:11:40 am
The GTVA engineers never though the Volosuss would have to fight a ship like Sathanas. That's why they never developed anything more powerfull than a BGreen. The ship wasn't design (and the beams too) to be overcharged.

Now if a new Colosuss were to be built, some changes will of course be made. Better heat sinks, better beams..otherwise there's little point in making another one.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: darkship on August 27, 2007, 06:33:42 am
im just gonna jump in here and point out that while the GTVA colossus was able to focus, as AlphaOne states, 6 to 8 beam cannons on the Sathanas juggernaut, it just cant fire as quickly or sustain its fire as long. As a result the colossus would probably be able to get off hmmmm.. 2 shots from all their cannons while the shivans hit them 5 times everyshot? well in the end the colossus will be destroyed much more quickly.

Back on topic, i think the GTVA will construct a new version of the colossus, but only one. Since its gonna be pretty expensive to build alot of them. construction will be much quicker because a lot of proven tech would be integrated into the new design, not to mention the GTVA would prolly have learnt a couple of things when constructing the first colossus. Added with possible new technology and weapons, i cant see why wont the GTVA build a new one. plus you have the added benefit of the new colossus being a massive deterrant to any sort of rebellion or revolt that might arise. heck it could also be the new symbol of unity for the GTVA

well yeah that what i think
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Snail on August 27, 2007, 06:36:05 am
There are alternatives, that's why they're not used in many campaigns.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: TrashMan on August 27, 2007, 07:48:22 am
IMHO, the new Colosuss should be shaped like a ring with hordes of beam cannons - the perfect node blockade ship...a Sathanas jumping in goes straight trough it while hte beamz pummel it from ALL sides!
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Snail on August 27, 2007, 07:51:40 am
IMHO, the new Colosuss should be shaped like a ring with hordes of beam cannons - the perfect node blockade ship...a Sathanas jumping in goes straight trough it while hte beamz pummel it from ALL sides!

Then that's not exactly a Colossus, then, is it?
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: TrashMan on August 27, 2007, 08:11:11 am
No, ti's BETTER :p
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Bob-san on August 27, 2007, 12:47:05 pm
The only problem I can see with such a hard node blockade weapon... what happens when a truly massive ship jumps in? The ship jumps in and goes "in" the ring, but the massive speed destroys the defense. Anyways--I think upgraded Mjolnirs (to include the missile banks they're supposed to have but don't) are the best bet for node blockades...
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on August 27, 2007, 12:52:14 pm
No, ti's BETTER :p

And who can ensure us that the second Colossus would have a better weaponry? Only better reactor systems, not actually a better weaponry(I'm refering to beam cannons).

The only problem I can see with such a hard node blockade weapon... what happens when a truly massive ship jumps in? The ship jumps in and goes "in" the ring, but the massive speed destroys the defense. Anyways--I think upgraded Mjolnirs (to include the missile banks they're supposed to have but don't) are the best bet for node blockades...

But their beams are dumb. Though there's a variant with a normal beam, we can't consider it..."official". It's more a way to make some missions easier.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Agent_Koopa on August 27, 2007, 01:47:09 pm
But their beams are dumb. Though there's a variant with a normal beam, we can't consider it..."official". It's more a way to make some missions easier.

Good planning overcomes this. A good place to put a Mjolnir would be directly behind the node; it can't miss, and no beams will be aimed at it. Another good place would be a safe distance in front of the node; it prevents the ship from jumping out, and again can't miss.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: TrashMan on August 27, 2007, 01:56:23 pm
The only problem I can see with such a hard node blockade weapon... what happens when a truly massive ship jumps in? The ship jumps in and goes "in" the ring, but the massive speed destroys the defense.

That would destroy both ships then. ..or at least heavily damage the incoming one...the defense still does it's part then, doesn' it?

Or do you think a Collie could do better against a ship as large as that?



And who can ensure us that the second Colossus would have a better weaponry? Only better reactor systems, not actually a better weaponry(I'm refering to beam cannons).

ERm..the fact that technology moves forward...especially when it's imparative for the survival of your race...
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Bob-san on August 27, 2007, 02:32:58 pm
The only problem I can see with such a hard node blockade weapon... what happens when a truly massive ship jumps in? The ship jumps in and goes "in" the ring, but the massive speed destroys the defense.

That would destroy both ships then. ..or at least heavily damage the incoming one...the defense still does it's part then, doesn' it?

Or do you think a Collie could do better against a ship as large as that?
If you have a ship big enough, I'd put the Collie against it... place it smartly and don't have it directly in front of the node. Just imagine how big the RBC ring would have to be--even with thin connections between the beam ring, it would take a long time to setup with limited advantage. The best thing I would see is if it's all connected to have an easier transport.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: TrashMan on August 27, 2007, 02:44:13 pm
It's a friggin allmsot ring-shaped-ship. It is connected. It has engines. It can move.

Or if that doesn't work for you how about two half-ring shaped ships? That way tehy can be more apart in case something big jumps in...

But then again, what if the shivan jump in a planet-sized ship? System-sized? :lol:
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Bob-san on August 27, 2007, 02:55:02 pm
Only thing--put yourself about 100m closer to the jump node in the final SOC mission... oh, and try to avoid the Sathanas!

Anyways--I'm not saying its such a bad idea, but it's probably better to simply put Mjolnirs at a node, have them aim at the strait line out of the node at distances of 50m-5+KM.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: foolfromhell on August 27, 2007, 02:57:10 pm
shivans can use unstable jump nodes, remember? the sathanas got through without a knossos, so why cant more shivans get through? you'd want many powerful ships that require minimal crew (and perhaps even automated ships, or atleast turrets). and they would probably replace blob turrets with something better (FL style ion cannons, fighter weapons, more beams). the fs2 fleet was, after all, the fs1 fleet with streamlining and beams.

nope. The knossos stabilized the portal for a few centuries.
Even GTVA ships can go through it now...
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on August 27, 2007, 04:32:15 pm
And who can ensure us that the second Colossus would have a better weaponry? Only better reactor systems, not actually a better weaponry(I'm refering to beam cannons).

ERm..the fact that technology moves forward...especially when it's imparative for the survival of your race...

Who knows? The second Colossus might have been a huge carrier without exceptional anti-warship capabilities. The GTVA sustained major losses in Capella mostly because of the lack of escort fighters. When a GTVA fleet attacks a system, spacecraft at the disposal of one or two destroyers are enough. When you are to DEFEND a system, they're not enough.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Talhoe on August 27, 2007, 05:40:35 pm
Hmm. Something to keep in mind... The GTVA got the beam cannon technology from the Shivans, and you know what they say about replicas... never as good as the original. Though on another scary thought, what if the 80 sathanas survived the apocolypse?
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: AlphaOne on August 27, 2007, 06:27:05 pm
they did not at least part of them never even engaged theyr subspace drives they just died!


A new Colossus would definetly benefit from better beams! The GTVA has specs on the shivan beams ! Even if they are not as powerfull the GTVA beams would styll be a lot better then they are now in only a few years time! Perhaps even faster!


Also whre the hell are all those fighters/ bommbers that are suposed to defend the Capella sistem! I mnea come having the fighter/bommber compliment from just 2 or 3 destroyers is so stupid it makes mi brain go into warning mode!

"Warning massive stupidity ahead please check your sensor sitems and take evasive manouvering"


Also the GTVA will definetly try and improve on the range of its beams since well even if the GTVA develops beams that are 80% the power of the shivan ones they are not enough they need to have also some other advanatage like range on theyr side!

A new Colossus would definetly have permanent CAP patrolls around it consisting mostly of bommbers! You have be an idiot to try and atack the Collie with anything smaller then a Sath!


Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Fang_Taichou on August 27, 2007, 09:22:37 pm
BUT HOW MANY PEOPLE WERE KILLED WHEN IT WENT DOWN!!!?!?!??!?!?!????!!???!?!!!!!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Lots. Many of probably the most elite people died on the Colossus. This is a bad thing. The Colossus is a symbol of death and a grim reminder of the Second Shivan War.

Okay, seriously, I don't know what kind of spin doctors you hire, but they really suck.

*ahem*

In an event we remember with great sadness, the GTVA Colossus perished under the overwhelming might of the Second Shivan Incursion. But today, we prove we can move beyond that. The GTVA (umm...) Hyperion will once more be a shining symbol of Terran-Vasudan goodwill, peace, and combined might. Like its forebear, the Hyperion will represent the union of our peoples, a union that can resist the Shivans.



There, how's that?

LOL!  The GTVA Hyperion is the EXACT SAME designation I gave to the Colossus juggernaut in my personal-made campaign (I made the mission for in the beginning of August)  :lol: It's C.O. is Admiral Raynor (Guess we've both played Starcraft and watched the vids of SC2 huh?)

In any case, in my campaign, the Hyperion began construction in secret 1 year after the original Colossus began (GTVI and SOC convinced the Security Council + Vasudan Emperor to have a backup ship in case the 1st ever bit the dust).  It serves as command ship for GTVI and SOC, and in the aftermath of Capella builders re-tooled it to better handle Shivan juggernauts (still loses head-on, but has 5 LRBGreens, 3 in the bow, 2 at the stern, 2 BFReds in middle hull as standard weaponry, all remaining slash beams switched with BVas, + all AAAf now -> ULTRA-fighter beams (previous captured Shivan tech + debris allowed scientists and engineers to design radically improved reactors and heatsinks, no need for overdrive anymore, but main reactor still needs to feed 100% power solely for the BFReds).  The Hyperion is kept secret from the rest of the GTVA, gets used to fend off 2 juggernauts in Ross 128 (where it was built at top-secret shipyards = research centre), helps CAPTURE a derelict Shivan juggernaut (Shivan crew died from a freak accident, GTVI + SOC stumbled on it by good fortune), then covers the retreat of the GTVA's Sathanas (I had it renamed the GTVA Nirvana) back to Ross 128 for research (3 Shivan juggernauts & their bombers in hot pursuit of Hyperion and Nirvana, you get to disable their beam cannons while they chase).  Total firepower of Hyperion, Nirvana & new experimental blockade ships = dead Sathani in less than 30 SECONDS!   :lol:  (tests showed me that you need to give each Sathanas 4 minutes distance between each other when emerging from a jump node if you don't want them to collide with each other).  However, officially the Hyperion and Nirvana don't exist since they get the classified level Omega tag.

Officially in my campaign (still-in-progress), the 2nd Colossus, the GTVA Olympus, gets the go-ahead 1 year after the Capella supernova (slight majority passed the bill in General Assembly, after engineers + GTVI assured new one would be better equipped to take on Sathani), when Shivans pop up through Ikeya and Vega via newly discovered nodes, and after the GTVA finds that the system where the Shivans enter Vega from has an inhabitable planet and is LOADED in resources, especially some precious, rare elements needed to build a Knossos device.  Sure you have the Capella refugee issue, but if the $$$ coming in from capturing the system and exploiting it solves that issue, employs hundreds of thousands (maybe millions), and gives you enough leftovers to build several Colossi + supporting fleets, you'd go ahead and do it right?
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Kie99 on August 27, 2007, 09:35:00 pm
The Shivans entered Vega from Capella.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: GTF Hercules on August 27, 2007, 09:42:08 pm
What do you reckon?  Would the GTVA concentrate its resources into making more destroyers and corvettes, or an improved Colossus design, bearing in mind that it would take significantly less than 20 years to build another one.  The Colossus was a success at what it was designed for, crushing rebellions and eliminating destroyers, ....

I am not sure they would need one as big as the first, but maybe they would make another juggernaught. Although with the destruction of the NTF and the sealing of the Epsilon Pegasai node do they really need one?

and any attempt to emulate the Sathanas would fall woefully short with the GTVA's tech level

What about the GTD Hades the GTI managed to construct in Silent Threat?

Oh and Snail, I believe there were about 30000 crew on the Colossus
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Fang_Taichou on August 27, 2007, 09:45:04 pm
Like I said, my personally created campaign using FRED (aftermath of Capella, its node got collapsed but a new one formed in another sector of Vega).
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: S-99 on August 28, 2007, 03:45:24 pm
LOL, my posts were deleted by the admin, same with some of trashman's i guess :p

The campaign with the hyperion sounds interesting.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: TrashMan on August 28, 2007, 03:57:53 pm
Who the hall started that crap anyway?


So as I was saying... a ring shaped ship..with loz and lotz of beams
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Sarafan on August 28, 2007, 04:28:03 pm
Who the hall started that crap anyway?


So as I was saying... a ring shaped ship..with loz and lotz of beams

Why? That ship would look simply silly. Something that the GTVA should get is something to actually block the nodes, like that thing in the I-War intro.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: TrashMan on August 28, 2007, 04:59:59 pm
LOL...something like that would get RAMMED to hell..and destroyed pretty fast to boot...
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Sarafan on August 28, 2007, 05:07:52 pm
LOL...something like that would get RAMMED to hell..and destroyed pretty fast to boot...

It would at least take out the incoming ship. :D
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: akenbosch on August 28, 2007, 06:20:38 pm
you've played JAD, havent you?
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Fang_Taichou on August 28, 2007, 06:41:39 pm
A giant ringed ship with beams...and moves?  So...a mobile Knossos portal with guns?  Guess you could flip the power on/off switch so you can decide whether to let shipping thru or not (would only work if normally set to off, if you left it on the node will stabilize to a point where the Knossos is no longer necessary).

But anyways I still think post-Capella the GTVA already had another Colossus either near completion or already halfway done.  So they'd complete it, with modifications to deal with Shivan juggernauts better.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Sarafan on August 28, 2007, 07:39:14 pm
You know, a Knossos with guns is a interesting idea, like a defense system against shivans.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Hades on August 28, 2007, 07:52:01 pm
I like the "cannon" Colossus better than a ring...
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: StarSlayer on August 28, 2007, 10:45:36 pm
Call me a pessimist but...


(http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/4070/trashsfollypg5.png)
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Sarafan on August 28, 2007, 11:24:34 pm
 :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: S-99 on August 29, 2007, 01:45:20 am
You did an awesome job on the fenris :yes:
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: TrashMan on August 29, 2007, 05:22:12 am
That wouldn't happen given that ships have a lot of forward acceleration when they exit subspace...they would clear the "ring" before it started to fire, giving it a clear shot atthe enemies rear. I know, I tested it.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Hades on August 29, 2007, 06:32:55 am
I don't think a "ring" would be acceptable for FreeSpace 2.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: TrashMan on August 29, 2007, 07:13:41 am
I ment more sumtin' like this:

http://www.ferrium.org/trashman/Stuff/NodeBlockade.jpg

Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Colonol Dekker on August 29, 2007, 07:16:08 am
Romulan ships ;7 :lol:
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: jr2 on August 29, 2007, 09:52:20 am
Call me a pessimist but...

Pessimist!

You'd need a rotating, ring shaped ship, like a non- Knossos Knossos, with the beams facing inwards, slightly off center.  Spread 5-10 of them out evenly, set speed to liquefy, and watch shredded Shivans fly!
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: foolfromhell on August 29, 2007, 01:13:43 pm
You did an awesome job on the fenris :yes:

Thats a Leviathan.
Notice the blue light. Not red.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Fang_Taichou on August 29, 2007, 02:28:59 pm
Call me a pessimist but...

Pessimist!

You'd need a rotating, ring shaped ship, like a non- Knossos Knossos, with the beams facing inwards, slightly off center.  Spread 5-10 of them out evenly, set speed to liquefy, and watch shredded Shivans fly!

A Knossos portal with beam defenses installed wouldn't be bad, it the thing is it would be static (once the ship slides out of range, beams stop firing).  Just reinforce it with blockade ships to the sides out of reach of debris and enemy + friendly beams so they can extend the range of the deathzone.

If the GTVA ever captured or captures a Lilith they could build a Colossus with BFReds via reverse-engineering, just supersize the beam, reactors and heatsinks.  That would give it enough firepower to lay waste to a Sathanas.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on August 29, 2007, 02:37:15 pm
What if something far bigger than a Juggernaut jumps in? What if someone sends in a Meson bomb and activates the self destruction sequence? That ring would be destroyed!
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: akenbosch on August 29, 2007, 02:44:14 pm
what about inferno's transport-towed automated blockade platform? two of them would look alot like trashmans example. and it can MOVE! (granted you have an argo on hand)
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Fang_Taichou on August 29, 2007, 03:05:47 pm
Somehow I just find the idea of a 30km+ sized ship using a 2km radius jump node...a bit weird.  Would it get stuck or maybe destabilize the tunnel?
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Frosty on August 29, 2007, 03:58:10 pm
This ring would take years to build, and plenty of resources.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on August 29, 2007, 04:01:21 pm
Don't exaggerate. It should be difficult to build up, but the amount of resources is inferior to the one used to build up destroyers. Mass.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: akenbosch on August 29, 2007, 04:00:43 pm
trashamn, are your "romulan" ships actualy going to be worked on and released?
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: TrashMan on August 29, 2007, 04:27:48 pm
What if something far bigger than a Juggernaut jumps in? What if someone sends in a Meson bomb and activates the self destruction sequence? That ring would be destroyed!

If it's ring sahaped than the ships surface would be the furhest away from the xenter of hte node, now wouldn' it? Kinda hard to take it out that way with a warped-in bomb.


But as I said, a ring might not be the best solution, but rahter TWO ships ( one above, one below ). The mock-up example (no akenbosh, I won' be making those...I think ).
they're mobile, can fit on a node of any size and can bring a obscene ammount of firepower to any capital ships entering the system.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Gamma_Draconis on August 29, 2007, 05:17:42 pm
And the ring would be take down from mass bombers and fighters. Besides, the ring would probably be very weak if its attacked from the outside since most of its beams are on the inter section of the ring. Also, if the ring is suppose to be bigger then a jump node, then that means it will probably have to be stationary and built on a node itself.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: TrashMan on August 29, 2007, 05:44:08 pm
Don't you read? TWO ships...not rings...looky at the picture on hte previous page.

Attacked from the other side? Yes, that would be their main weakness...but given that anode is hte ONLY way into a system, no enemy should be there allready...anyone coming in will suffer your full wrath.

Mass fihgters and bombers can take it out? Your point being? Name me something that mass fighters and bobers can't take out? Ever heard of flak/AAAf and friendly fightercover?

IMHO, it would be best to put 90% if not ALL the turrets (anti-cap and anti-fighter) on the underside of the "rumulan-look-a-like" ships. That way you could bring 100% firepower at anything that enters the node. now give it the armament of a Colossus and do the math..
ALL of the weapons have a clear field of fire.. ;7 ;7 ;7
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: akenbosch on August 29, 2007, 06:03:37 pm
with top/rear/frontal/side armarents for anti fighter/broadside defense?
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Ghostavo on August 29, 2007, 06:04:28 pm
Has anyone ever heard of friendly fire?
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: akenbosch on August 29, 2007, 06:06:24 pm
are you implying that shivans would pose as GTVA pilots and blow the thing to bits?

 :lol:
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Ghostavo on August 29, 2007, 06:08:28 pm
No, I'm trying to say that a ship designed as a ring would run the risk of hitting itself. The same about a ship underneath another.

The option left is what's done in the campaign.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: akenbosch on August 29, 2007, 06:31:00 pm
friendly beam damage is decreased. my perseus can get hit by a friendly BFgreen and survive with no more than a few scratches.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Ghostavo on August 29, 2007, 06:35:02 pm
That's because of gameplay reason, and even then, no self respecting captain is going to command a ship that shoots itself repeatedly.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: akenbosch on August 29, 2007, 06:36:17 pm
then have one behind the node and another on top.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Ghostavo on August 29, 2007, 06:38:07 pm
The one behind the node will not do anything since it will easily be out of range. The best arrangement is likely the one done in the campaign.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: akenbosch on August 29, 2007, 06:40:09 pm
nope. its beam cannons would be on its front, and it would be facing the node. remember, ships jump in fron INSIDE the node. i think having a whole bunch of beams 10 meters away fron the node would be effective.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Ghostavo on August 29, 2007, 06:44:46 pm
Placing the ship behind the node will place it out of range. Ships jumping from the node will quickly be quite a distance from the node.

Also, blockading from inside the node is dangerous, you don't know from where inside the node the ship will appear.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: akenbosch on August 29, 2007, 06:46:23 pm
same for the top beam platform. the purpose of blockade-ships is too make the bombers job easier by significantly weakening the jumping in ships. alot like the mjolnir cannons.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Ghostavo on August 29, 2007, 06:55:48 pm
These (http://img382.imageshack.us/img382/8408/mjolnirdb1.jpg) are the positions of the Mjolnirs in the blockade mission.

If you were to put a ship safely behind the node, it would be out of range or in the best case scenario have a very short firing time.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: TrashMan on August 29, 2007, 07:07:22 pm
No, I'm trying a ship designed as a ring would run the risk of hitting itself. The same about a ship underneath another.

that wouldn't happen...Think for a moment what happens when a ship exits the node. ;7

Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Ghostavo on August 29, 2007, 07:08:44 pm
Then the purpose of it being ring shaped is useless. Which comes back to the way blockades are portraid in the campaign.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: TrashMan on August 29, 2007, 07:12:19 pm
wrong again. And it doesn't even have to be ring shaped.

but in order to be a effective blockade ship it has to have:
1) a large/long surface are pointed wowards the node, to where the enemy ships will be when they exit (momentum included)
2) that large area has to have practicly all of hte ships firepower...both anti-cap and anti-fighter

Get a few of these...and the day is yours.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Ghostavo on August 29, 2007, 07:14:55 pm
So what does that differ from a standard destroyer being in front of the node as in the campaign?
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: akenbosch on August 29, 2007, 07:17:05 pm
destroyer=2-4 beam cannons on one enemy

blockade-ship=10 cannons on the enemy per ship if you use trashmans desings(romulans, hoop-da-loop).
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Ghostavo on August 29, 2007, 07:18:29 pm
TrashMan's designs are simply not possible if you stick with the game's logic.

Hell, even the Sathanas only has 4 beam cannons on one side and that's already the most offensive ship you can get.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Fang_Taichou on August 29, 2007, 08:16:18 pm
TrashMan's designs are simply not possible if you stick with the game's logic.

Hell, even the Sathanas only has 4 beam cannons on one side and that's already the most offensive ship you can get.

Actually, the Colossus unloads the biggest barrage.  If it broadsides a Sathanas facing vertically up with y-coordinates slightly positive, with the Colossus beams in overdrive (so the Colossus is standard facing forward in FRED with the Sathanas either left or right, pointing up and exposing its rear to the lower beams and its front to the upper beams), it can theoretically deliver 8 LRBGreens (best to set pilot and gunner Ai to General and set difficulty to insane), which is about 32.8% of the Sathanas hull integrity per volley.  This is theoretical, I'll try to pull this off with FRED and see how it goes.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: akenbosch on August 29, 2007, 08:19:32 pm
now have blockade ships with 10 BFgreens all facing twoards the sathanas.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Fang_Taichou on August 29, 2007, 10:12:34 pm
Well I just did my FRED simulation, under optimal conditions a Colossus with overdrived beams (LRBGreens) WILL be able to broadside a Sathanas with 8 of its cannons, taking down 1/3 of the Shivan juggernaut's hull integrity within seconds.  Recharge time is 35 seconds, enough to destroy the Sathanas before it maneuvers to fire back.

Anyone can make a giant ship/installaion with 60+ LRBGreens/BFReds facing one direction, but that wouldn't be realistic, let alone canon.  So I'd say they would build a Colossus after Capella, they just need to soup up the beam, reactors and heatsinks then get a top-notch captain for it.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: jr2 on August 30, 2007, 01:41:17 am
Erm... if they were designing the Colossus around destroying a Sath, they would have made more beams with more reactors with better heatsinks... they thought they were going after a Lucy.  And, if they were... put that into your test.  Lucy toast!
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: TrashMan on August 30, 2007, 04:28:22 am
destroyer=2-4 beam cannons on one enemy

blockade-ship=10 cannons on the enemy per ship if you use trashmans desings(romulans, hoop-da-loop).

Yup..and focused and concetrated AF defense so that you can't get disarmed easily.. A shup that's designed to blockade a not - NOT sit in front of it, but rahter above/below/left/right
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Wobble73 on August 30, 2007, 05:07:50 am
Yup..and focused and concetrated AF defense so that you can't get disarmed easily.. A shup that's designed to blockade a not - NOT sit in front of it, but rahter above/below/left/right

Ummm, we are talking a node in space here! what is above and below in space? Which way is up? Also, say a Sathanas exits the node at a different angle than expected and heading in a different direction, (say your up direction), it's going to ram one of your ships and thus destroy it, half the blockade down!

After all, we don't know that all ships exiting a node, always exit at the same point and head in the same direction, do we?
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: TrashMan on August 30, 2007, 06:28:19 am
Ummm, we are talking a node in space here! what is above and below in space? Which way is up? Also, say a Sathanas exits the node at a different angle than expected and heading in a different direction, (say your up direction), it's going to ram one of your ships and thus destroy it, half the blockade down!

After all, we don't know that all ships exiting a node, always exit at the same point and head in the same direction, do we?

AS far as we can see in FS2, all ships exist along the same vector.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Kie99 on August 30, 2007, 07:04:28 am
Yup..and focused and concetrated AF defense so that you can't get disarmed easily.. A shup that's designed to blockade a not - NOT sit in front of it, but rahter above/below/left/right

Ummm, we are talking a node in space here! what is above and below in space? Which way is up? Also, say a Sathanas exits the node at a different angle than expected and heading in a different direction, (say your up direction), it's going to ram one of your ships and thus destroy it, half the blockade down!

After all, we don't know that all ships exiting a node, always exit at the same point and head in the same direction, do we?

Yes, we do, play The King's Gambit.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: GTF Hercules on August 30, 2007, 07:47:38 am
Ummm, we are talking a node in space here! what is above and below in space? Which way is up? Also, say a Sathanas exits the node at a different angle than expected and heading in a different direction, (say your up direction), it's going to ram one of your ships and thus destroy it, half the blockade down!

After all, we don't know that all ships exiting a node, always exit at the same point and head in the same direction, do we?
Well, you could speculate that since nodes hae a definate length that yes, it does exit at the same point.  And since they have definite pathes (From node to node) and you cannot enter a node sideways, yes same direction too.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Wobble73 on August 30, 2007, 07:57:26 am
Well I just thought that seeing as you can enter a node from any direction and facing any way, that you may well exit in a similar fashion. You know, depending on what vector you entered the node, that may be the vector you exit? Maybe?  :confused:
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: TrashMan on August 30, 2007, 07:59:12 am
IMHO, it may be possible to ENTER the node sideways, but not exit it....

Immagine it like some sort of river with a very strong current..you cna enter it i na dozen ways, but it's flow will carry you in a single direction.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Ghostavo on August 30, 2007, 08:03:12 am
It certainly fits with what happens ingame.

I'm not sure about this but in the mission where you were supposed to chase the Iceni ("I can live with being a pawn if the game makes sense") doesn't the Iceni jump in one direction and the ships you are supposed to stop from escaping are heading towards the node in a diferent direction?
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: TrashMan on August 30, 2007, 09:59:35 am
allmost the same direction IIRC... the NTF convoy was... a few degrees to the side.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Wobble73 on August 30, 2007, 10:22:21 am
No, say the node (and the Iceni) are in a northerly direction from you at the start of the mission, then by the time you reach the node, they convoy approaches from a east to south easterly direction.

But that is beside the point anyway! You can enter (and approach) a node from any direction, but will you always exit a node in the same direction. (Of course in game it's FREDded that way but for speculations sake, is it possible you could exit the node in the opposite direction?)
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on August 30, 2007, 10:24:36 am
It may be enough to claim that jumps are possible, no matter of the degrees. And I was about to mention that mission, too.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: akenbosch on August 30, 2007, 12:26:06 pm
another JAD moment...a deimos escapes a blockade by exiting the node facing "up" relative to the other deimos blockading, evading its ramming strategy.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on August 30, 2007, 12:30:07 pm
That orientation is obviously exaggerated, we were talking about light differences between angles.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: BloodEagle on August 30, 2007, 01:33:55 pm
another JAD moment...a deimos escapes a blockade by exiting the node facing "up" relative to the other deimos blockading, evading its ramming strategy.

I don't think JAD is canon.

IMHO, it may be possible to ENTER the node sideways, but not exit it....

Immagine it like some sort of river with a very strong current..you cna enter it i na dozen ways, but it's flow will carry you in a single direction.

I'm pretty sure that you use warp drives to exit subspace, so the direction you face when exiting subspace shouldn't be one set direction.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: akenbosch on August 30, 2007, 01:35:35 pm
in subspace mission you see shivans come out of the "walls", so i guess the direction thing is just to make sure the poor NTF ships dont ram the mjolnir cannons/so you dont have too fly an extra 2000 m to your just-warped-in escort.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Kie99 on August 30, 2007, 02:04:19 pm
in subspace mission you see shivans come out of the "walls", so i guess the direction thing is just to make sure the poor NTF ships dont ram the mjolnir cannons/so you dont have too fly an extra 2000 m to your just-warped-in escort.

That never happens in FS.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Polpolion on August 30, 2007, 02:30:05 pm
Hey everybody, just for clarifacation:

canon = happened in FS1, ST or FS2
non-canon = didn't happen in FS1, ST or FS2

So:

Derelict = non-canon
JAD = non-canon
Inferno = non-canon


etc...
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: akenbosch on August 30, 2007, 03:33:02 pm
in subspace mission you see shivans come out of the "walls", so i guess the direction thing is just to make sure the poor NTF ships dont ram the mjolnir cannons/so you dont have too fly an extra 2000 m to your just-warped-in escort.

That never happens in FS.

in the fs1 subspace mission. i saw shivans come from the "walls" and right infront of me depending on my orientation/position.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: TrashMan on August 30, 2007, 03:55:21 pm
never happens..only time you're in subspace in FS1 is in the last mission...and all fihgters come from Lucys fighterbays
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Hades on August 30, 2007, 04:04:59 pm
Were did you get the "Shivans came from the walls" ****?
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on August 30, 2007, 04:07:21 pm
canon = happened in FS1, ST or FS2
non-canon = didn't happen in FS1, ST or FS2

Uh-huh.

These fonts are contraddittory. :blah:
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: akenbosch on August 30, 2007, 04:14:33 pm
Were did you get the "Shivans came from the walls" ****?

because you see the warp effects from the side (in subspace missions) as if they are inset into the subspace "walls". if this was the intended effect from [v]...then subspace is not a one-vector entrance/exit system, but more like b5 hyperspace, only without the gates (which are the only things that restrict vector)
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: TrashMan on August 30, 2007, 04:25:20 pm
It must have been someones campaing and not FS1..Thou art mistaken...no shivan fighter in the last mission jsut warps in..they ALL come from Lucys fighterbay.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: akenbosch on August 30, 2007, 04:31:01 pm
oh noes...some one has hacked my fs1 missions!

...

im going to kill that little spamming n00b.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on August 30, 2007, 04:32:13 pm
Confirmed. There are some fighters that escort the Lucifer at the beginning of the mission, but none of them jumps in.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Kie99 on August 30, 2007, 07:28:04 pm
Only mission where ships coming from the walls are mentioned is Derelict.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: AlphaOne on August 30, 2007, 10:32:40 pm
I believe we also see something like that in Homesick but cant remember corectly! Or was it transcend or meh i'm too sleepy right now i just remember i saw it in some other camapaign as well!
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Wobble73 on August 31, 2007, 03:52:14 am
Only mission where ships coming from the walls are mentioned is Derelict.

Yep! Nyarlthotep.....Nyarlhtrutep...........Nayrlt................t he second Shivan Lucy comes through the walls!
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Jeff Vader on August 31, 2007, 03:53:35 am
Also, the pirate fighters in the same mission. But apart from the... um... yeah, second Lucy, no Shivans.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Polpolion on August 31, 2007, 02:45:57 pm
canon = happened in FS1, ST or FS2
non-canon = didn't happen in FS1, ST or FS2

Uh-huh.

These fonts are contraddittory. :blah:

:wtf:

That post made absolutely no sense at all.


EDIT: @the recent conversation: Transcend, Homesick and Derelict are non-canon.

But I suppose if you guys are still using non-canon campaigns...

I'm making a 0 mission campaign that completely contradicts the entire FS universe. Since it's 0 missions, I already finished it, and all of you have also played it. I win.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on August 31, 2007, 03:11:02 pm
My posts makes more sense than yours :P

Firing points, the Hades in Deneb, three jump points from Sol...there are things we can't accept as valid!
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Snail on August 31, 2007, 03:15:27 pm
Firing points, the Hades in Deneb, three jump points from Sol...there are things we can't accept as valid!

Why not? They're canon. Canon inconsistencies, yes, but canon nonetheless.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on August 31, 2007, 03:21:06 pm
They're not canon. Though Alpha 1 of FS1 talks about "the jump points to Earth", in FS2 only the Gamma Draconis-Sol corridor is mentioned.

The Manticore has certain firing points, they can't be changed. And I can't think of a variant of this fighter.

And let's forget the Hades... :blah:
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Snail on August 31, 2007, 03:24:23 pm
They're not canon. Though Alpha 1 of FS1 talks about "the jump points to Earth", in FS2 only the Gamma Draconis-Sol corridor is mentioned.

They are canon inconsistencies.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on August 31, 2007, 03:25:14 pm
They're inconsistencies...and we can't trust them.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: AlphaOne on August 31, 2007, 06:54:18 pm
That is why we should replace them with what is convenient for us?? Dont agree with that!

I there were more jump point from delta serpentis to sol then why did the lucy pick the Delta serpentis node to jump to sol? Why also didnt the rest of the fleet managed to get out of Sol via the other nodes?? The fact is that either V made a mistake ar rewriten the storyline of thegame at some point or all those subspace nodes were taken out or severely damaged to render them inoperable !
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Hades on August 31, 2007, 07:01:48 pm
Yes; that was a bad loophole in the story.When I noticed that, I was like " :wtf: why did they do that?"
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Snail on September 01, 2007, 06:11:29 am
They're inconsistencies...and we can't trust them.

They are canon inconsistencies! They are inconsistencies! But they are canon! It is up to you which canon thing you choose! But you cannot say they are completely not canon! And you cannot replace them with non-canon facts!
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on September 01, 2007, 07:50:29 am
I don't replace it with non-canon facts. I replace it with FS2 canon, which is preferable over FS1 "canon".
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: TrashMan on September 01, 2007, 08:46:23 am
Some guy making the cutscene or hte nodemap made a mistake... big deal...live with it!
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Vip on September 01, 2007, 08:53:44 am
Some guy making the cutscene or hte nodemap made a mistake... big deal...live with it!

No, Trashman ! Please... We can't live with such inconsistencies ! I feel I'm falling apart... Help... Help... HELP ME !!!

On another note - wasn't that discussed already ? Like a dozen times ?
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Hades on September 01, 2007, 08:56:11 am
Yes it has been.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on September 01, 2007, 09:06:29 am
That's right. But people think that "inconstency" means "another valid truth" :doubt:
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Vip on September 01, 2007, 09:24:52 am
And if there was a mission where the Sathanas is a freaking Transformer ? Unless people at Volition say "Hey, just an Easter Egg, it's shouldn't really be there, don't treat it seriously" it is still canon...
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Snail on September 01, 2007, 09:26:00 am
That's right. But people think that "inconstency" means "another valid truth" :doubt:

No. It's an inconsistency in canon. You can choose either one.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Hades on September 01, 2007, 09:28:14 am
And if there was a mission where the Sathanas is a freaking Transformer ? Unless people at Volition say "Hey, just an Easter Egg, it's shouldn't really be there, don't treat it seriously" it is still canon...

You know what would have been a great easter egg?
Break dancing Shivans!
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on September 01, 2007, 09:40:06 am
That's right. But people think that "inconstency" means "another valid truth" :doubt:

No. It's an inconsistency in canon. You can choose either one.

No, I choose the one from FS2...which is better.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mongoose on September 03, 2007, 03:35:43 am
To drag this fairly interesting thread back on-topic, I'd also agree that a second Colossus, or at the very least a Colossus-esque project, would be something that the GTVA would most likely consider if at all possible.  However, I'd also expect that presumably-limited resources would be first directed toward more manageable projects, such as advances in the corvette/frigate range, or more specialized anti-capship weaponry.  The GTVA has to know for a fact that nothing at all (or at the very least, nothing in the foreseeable future) could make any sort of dent in a full-fledged Shivan invasion.  In lieu of coming up with some method of doing so, focusing on improving current technology against what would be feasible immediate threats would make the most sense.

That being said, I did come up with a specialized weapon that seems somewhat feasible and would be invaluable against any future Shivan encounters.  In "High Noon," we saw that the Colossus's (albeit overloaded) beam cannons were capable of out-ranging those of the Sathanas.  We also know that the main beam cannons of the Sathanas were each able to be destroyed with a single double Helios volley, a damage level well within the GTVA's current beam weaponry limits.  So...why not take advantage of all of this?  With sufficient levels of fire control accuracy, and a beam with coherence (but not power) equal to that of the Colossus's main guns, it seems to me that it would be feasible to develop an anti-turret beam cannon, capable of disarming main beam weaponry from a fair distance away.  Throw a few of these on a corvette or destroyer, and you'd be able to cripple an enemy before it could return fire.  After that, send in whatever ships you want to finish the job.  Specialty weapons like this seem like they'd offer the GTVA their only chance of surviving any future encounters with something at the level of a Sathanas.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Wobble73 on September 03, 2007, 03:40:11 am
Hmmmm, anti-weaponry weaponry. It's a thought!  :nod:
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: achtung on September 03, 2007, 03:45:31 am
I think that the GTVA  has learned not to put all of it's eggs in one basket, and won't build something as large as the colossus again for a good long while.  I mean, just think about it, would you rather have a bunch of fast and small destroyers that are easier to repair/deploy, or a gigantic ship like the colossus that just seems like a supply/repair nightmare?

There's a reason the Battleship has been pushed out of naval warfare in modern times.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Wobble73 on September 03, 2007, 04:21:08 am

There's a reason the Battleship has been pushed out of naval warfare in modern times.

And that reason is the ballistic missile! And the FreeSpace equivalent is......?
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: CB on September 03, 2007, 05:50:06 am
Actually, I think a Knossos project would take priority in the post Capella scenario.
Remember folks, Sol was *the*  industrial center of the GTA, and odds are the GTVA still is in contact with the forces there (sure, radio takes its time, but iti s only a couple of years from Alpha Centaury)
But even if not, think of the shipyards, of the factories, refineries.... well, if they didn't nuke themselves or something as idiotic as that. (yeah, no guarantees here)

on any case, the time it took to build Colossus? I bet a large part was infrastructure to do so. and the first one always takes longer.
Now, I am guessing it would get some redesign, so it would get a better beam convergence, or maybe improved armor.... seems she was designed before collapsed core molby was incorporated, so she might het an armor and hull overhaul.

finally, what about a missile based system for Meson delivery? the thing is big, but why not tie it to a huge drone like missile? would make an interesting standoff weapon (specially if they can do a missile spam... now, picture it, meson missile spam! that'd be the sight)
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Wobble73 on September 03, 2007, 06:03:48 am
Actually, I think a Knossos project would take priority in the post Capella scenario.
Remember folks, Sol was *the*  industrial center of the GTA, and odds are the GTVA still is in contact with the forces there (sure, radio takes its time, but iti s only a couple of years from Alpha Centaury)
But even if not, think of the shipyards, of the factories, refineries.... well, if they didn't nuke themselves or something as idiotic as that. (yeah, no guarantees here)

on any case, the time it took to build Colossus? I bet a large part was infrastructure to do so. and the first one always takes longer.
Now, I am guessing it would get some redesign, so it would get a better beam convergence, or maybe improved armor.... seems she was designed before collapsed core molby was incorporated, so she might het an armor and hull overhaul.

finally, what about a missile based system for Meson delivery? the thing is big, but why not tie it to a huge drone like missile? would make an interesting standoff weapon (specially if they can do a missile spam... now, picture it, meson missile spam! that'd be the sight)

Er... Hi CB, don't know if you have been welcomed yet so............

:welcome:

If the meson bomb was small enough to fit into a drone fighter they would have done so in FS2 (blowing up the Bastion), Why waste a destroyer, even one that was de-commissioned, when you could salvage that and use a cheap drone. (I'm unsure why they didn't just freighter unless it was the armament that the Bastion had that helped it get through, in that case a drone is more likely to be taken down)
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Vip on September 03, 2007, 06:38:50 am
Well, I always thought they used an Orion because they expected oposition... The Bastion was really damaged even before Alpha 1 joined the fight (dunno if it wasn't due to the destroyer being decomissioned), so I guess that they had to put a helluva fight there.  Besides, an Orion can be hit with multiple Cyclopses and be in good form, whereas most freighters won't survive even a single torpedo.

As already said many times before, I think that they could produce another Colossus in a matter of 5 years, assuming they would find enough resources for this. As far as improvements go, probably tougher armor, better reactors and maybe equip it with those "60 fighter and bomber wings" at last :P Unless the GTVA makes some breakthrough in weaponry, I don't think that they could create any anti-juggernaut weapons before next century, however the Colossus works great as destroyer-killer, and it should be used as such.

Ah, and according to the FSWiki, the Collie had only 18 blobs... wasn't it supposed to have "45 laser turrets" ? If you could give it so many blobs, then why not replace them with more flaks ? This way it would own most bombs before they reach it.

And about contact with Earth - I believe that the Earth forces could have retrived the "arms" of the Lucy, the ones that contained the SSLs. According to the FS1 outro they were one of the few elements that survive the explosion. of course, most of the weapon itself would be damaged, however even researching hitsinks or such could give some great results. Remember, the GTVA built its beams basing only on scans. I believe that they could create much better ones if they had access to the wrecks of the original ones ;)
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: CB on September 03, 2007, 07:35:38 am
Actually, I think a Knossos project would take priority in the post Capella scenario.
Remember folks, Sol was *the*  industrial center of the GTA, and odds are the GTVA still is in contact with the forces there (sure, radio takes its time, but iti s only a couple of years from Alpha Centaury)
But even if not, think of the shipyards, of the factories, refineries.... well, if they didn't nuke themselves or something as idiotic as that. (yeah, no guarantees here)

on any case, the time it took to build Colossus? I bet a large part was infrastructure to do so. and the first one always takes longer.
Now, I am guessing it would get some redesign, so it would get a better beam convergence, or maybe improved armor.... seems she was designed before collapsed core molby was incorporated, so she might het an armor and hull overhaul.

finally, what about a missile based system for Meson delivery? the thing is big, but why not tie it to a huge drone like missile? would make an interesting standoff weapon (specially if they can do a missile spam... now, picture it, meson missile spam! that'd be the sight)

Er... Hi CB, don't know if you have been welcomed yet so............

:welcome:

If the meson bomb was small enough to fit into a drone fighter they would have done so in FS2 (blowing up the Bastion), Why waste a destroyer, even one that was de-commissioned, when you could salvage that and use a cheap drone. (I'm unsure why they didn't just freighter unless it was the armament that the Bastion had that helped it get through, in that case a drone is more likely to be taken down)

Thanks for the welcome.
When I spoke of a drone, I was talking conceptually, basically a manned vehicle big enough and fast enough to pull a kamikaze (assuming that, since it doesn't have a pilot or that it is a one use vessel, then I assume it can be as unsafe as it can be as long as it makes it fast enough (and is able to mount a shield).
in short I am talking about a drone built around the bomb to serve as a delivery mechanishm, nothing more, nothing less.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Wobble73 on September 03, 2007, 07:40:07 am
And a jump drive, it'd definately need a jump drive!
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: jr2 on September 03, 2007, 08:00:52 am
To drag this fairly interesting thread back on-topic, I'd also agree that a second Colossus, or at the very least a Colossus-esque project, would be something that the GTVA would most likely consider if at all possible.  However, I'd also expect that presumably-limited resources would be first directed toward more manageable projects, such as advances in the corvette/frigate range, or more specialized anti-capship weaponry.  The GTVA has to know for a fact that nothing at all (or at the very least, nothing in the foreseeable future) could make any sort of dent in a full-fledged Shivan invasion.  In lieu of coming up with some method of doing so, focusing on improving current technology against what would be feasible immediate threats would make the most sense.

That being said, I did come up with a specialized weapon that seems somewhat feasible and would be invaluable against any future Shivan encounters.  In "High Noon," we saw that the Colossus's (albeit overloaded) beam cannons were capable of out-ranging those of the Sathanas.  We also know that the main beam cannons of the Sathanas were each able to be destroyed with a single double Helios volley, a damage level well within the GTVA's current beam weaponry limits.  So...why not take advantage of all of this?  With sufficient levels of fire control accuracy, and a beam with coherence (but not power) equal to that of the Colossus's main guns, it seems to me that it would be feasible to develop an anti-turret beam cannon, capable of disarming main beam weaponry from a fair distance away.  Throw a few of these on a corvette or destroyer, and you'd be able to cripple an enemy before it could return fire.  After that, send in whatever ships you want to finish the job.  Specialty weapons like this seem like they'd offer the GTVA their only chance of surviving any future encounters with something at the level of a Sathanas.

How about increasing the range and damage of the Stiletto II (Stiletto III :D ), and either making a gunboat (sorta like an AC-130) or a rapid-fire turret on a capship... ah, nah, make it a gunboat so I can fly it around!  ;)
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Fang_Taichou on September 03, 2007, 09:02:35 am
The part about getting GTVA ship beams to prioritize enemy subsystems/high-threat turrets shouldn't be all that difficult to do.  In a normal ship battle all non-slashers randomly select an area to fire on, sometimes picking subsystems or turrets/beam batteries (when I put a Colossus or several Orions in the blindspot of a Sathanas, their beams always end up locking on and destroying between 1 to all 4 of its BFRed cannons by the time the Sathanas goes down).  In-game, simply a matter of upping the turret gunner AI, while in-universe you only need modifications to fire-control computers for better accuracy and priority targets.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Fozzy on September 03, 2007, 10:31:25 am
the way i see it, the GTVA put all there eggs in one basket...

the same amount of beam weapons mounted on smaller craft would be far more powerfull because the collosus could only use half its arsonal at a time (brouad side).
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on September 03, 2007, 11:14:22 am
Sure. And the reactors?  :wtf:

You need an incredible amount of energy!
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Vip on September 03, 2007, 11:20:16 am
If the Vasudans were to move their butts (or whatever they have in that place) they could surely create efficient reactors. If not, you can always add some Deimos-class reactors on the hull of the Colossus, just like the additional fuel tanks (not those bomb-looking ones, but the ones installed on the hull) on an F-16. Sure, they would be vulnerable for attacks, however they would certainly deliver the needed power. If used only for shooting, a Deimos has IMO enough power to power 2 or even 3 BGreens or oeven 1 BFGReen.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on September 03, 2007, 11:35:37 am
They're known to have efficient engine reactors(Interceptor missile, GTCv Deimos), not all kinds of reactors :)
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Vip on September 03, 2007, 11:46:53 am
Perhaps... though the tech-room states only that "their Vasudan-designed reactor core provides more energy per ton than any other allied ship class". IMO they don't have seperate reactors for engines, beams, life support, C.O.s TV set and God knows what else, but just one responsible for everything. Look at modern carriers - they have one nuclear reactor, that produces all/most of the energy.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: achtung on September 03, 2007, 11:53:08 am

There's a reason the Battleship has been pushed out of naval warfare in modern times.

And that reason is the ballistic missile! And the FreeSpace equivalent is......?

Beams can be accurate and powerful weapons, big ships are just big targets.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: AlphaOne on September 03, 2007, 11:53:26 am
well acording to the tech description of the deimos beause it has vasudan designed reactors ot os able to power 4 slasher beams loads of aaaf weapons and have a very high speed! So that makes me belive vasudans are better at designing reactors! So if they moved they buts as stated above and strugled to produce some more powerfull or eficient reactors they would surely be able to make the Colossus and most every other ship faster and more deadly then it already is!
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on September 03, 2007, 12:02:10 pm
I know, but the Vasudans seem good at creating engine reactors, not all kinds of reactors. All GTVA ships should have a Vasudan reactor, otherwise...
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Fang_Taichou on September 03, 2007, 12:13:37 pm
Engines =/= Reactors.  Reactors feed power to the ship weaponry/subsystems AND its engines.  The engines draw on power from the reactors to propel the ship forward/activate subspace.

On another note, Vasudans have better beams than their Terran counterparts (SVas is superior to the SRed and SGreen, VSlash is 2x as good as TerSlash, BVas is in between the LRed and BGreen in terms of sustained damage output).  Not to mention, they make reactors only beatable by Shivan design.

Now, just think of the power a Vasudan/Shivan reactor could produce.  Take a look at the Lilith and you can see how insane that would be (a small cruiser with durability comparable to a corvette, decent top speed and a LRed for capital ship killing).  If they made those kinds of reactors for the Colossus, it wouldn't need to overdrive its reactors for 'High Noon' since it could support LRBGreens as standard firepower (I would've preferred to fit LRBVas since the Vasudans have better beam weapons as I mentioned, but the heatsink issue still exists, though if you use Shivan materials that could be solved).
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on September 03, 2007, 12:20:09 pm
Uhm, I thought the Vasudan beams were strong...but not at this level! The VSlash is 2x a TerSlash! Incredible!
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Vip on September 03, 2007, 12:21:21 pm
I know, but the Vasudans seem good at creating engine reactors, not all kinds of reactors. All GTVA ships should have a Vasudan reactor, otherwise...

What ships ? Fenris and Leviathan are old; such a refit would be very expensive, especially given that there are very many cruisers in service nowadays. The same comes to Orions; the refit still would be very expensive and the Orions already have enough power for their broadsides. We know nothing of Hecate or Aeolus; however we know that the Vasudans have problems with refitting their old ships - see many system failures on Typhons that were refitted with beams and possibly new reactors to power up them. Add to this problems with compability, and you'll see why older Terran crafts are not equipped with it. Take into account, that Orions were replaced by Hecates and cruisers were supposed to be replaced with Deimos, so a refit wouldn't be needed.

Also, I still do not believe they have many types of reactors. The reactor in the Interceptor is just that - a reactor. Not engine reactor. It's just that the reactor has nothing else to power besides the engine :P a subtle, but important difference. As far as it makes sense to have multiple reactors for different systems - the cost and space needed would make it very hard to implement. Also, the phrase "engine reactor" or "weapons reactor" is never used anywhere in FS, and everything points us to ships having ONE reactor plus something small for backup power (for lights, gravity, life support).
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on September 03, 2007, 12:24:30 pm
I was refering to all kind of GTVA craft, fighters and bombers included. The Ares has a Terran engine, if I remember well.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Vip on September 03, 2007, 12:30:26 pm
Actually, we have no idea how many Vasudans were employed in Nankam Aeronautical while designing the engine or the fighter itself ;) Given that the Nankam NA-27f is supposed to be a powerful power plant after all... Hey, maybe the Terrans actually learned something from Vasudans ?
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Fang_Taichou on September 03, 2007, 12:33:05 pm
Uhm, I thought the Vasudan beams were strong...but not at this level! The VSlash is 2x a TerSlash! Incredible!

http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Weapons_Database_%28FS2%29#Turrets

Check the damage values for the TerSlash and the VSlash.  I was slightly wrong, the VSlash is slightly MORE than 2x the power of a TerSlash  :shaking:

The SVas also deals slightly more damage than the SRed and does so at a slightly better rate of fire.  BVas does a bit less damage than the BGreen each shot but in the end it wins out by having a faster rate of fire.  Why the Colossus wasn't equipped with Vasudan beams I have no clue, especially since it was Emperor Khonsu's idea to build it.

Again, a reactor simply generates power for other systems to use.  A ship could have a Vasudan reactor because it provides the best power output, but have Terran engines because they can convert/use the power more efficiently.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Hades on September 03, 2007, 12:34:52 pm
The Terrans Bgreen does more damage than the Vasudans Bvas.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Fang_Taichou on September 03, 2007, 12:37:47 pm
The Terrans Bgreen does more damage than the Vasudans Bvas.

I did say that.  read the part about BVas doing slightly less damage than the BGreen but having a better rate of fire (which is more important when engaging large targets like a Sathanas or multiple warships).
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on September 03, 2007, 12:38:47 pm
I don't think the Vasudans worked for Nankam Aeronautical. It would be strange since they have their own industry giants and Terrans can simply buy the results of their research from them.

As for the Colossus, remember that in a game like FreeSpace there's more Terran stuff than Vasudan stuff. The Colossus is ebsentially Terran, and Terrans have plenties of ships(Amazons, Argo, 3 classes of cruisers, many spacecraft). They don't even have a heavy transport like the Argo. But Inferno solved the problem  :cool:
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Fang_Taichou on September 03, 2007, 12:45:07 pm
I don't think the Vasudans worked for Nankam Aeronautical. It would be strange since they have their own industry giants and Terrans can simply buy the results of their research from them.

As for the Colossus, remember that in a game like FreeSpace there's more Terran stuff than Vasudan stuff. The Colossus is ebsentially Terran, and Terrans have plenties of ships(Amazons, Argo, 3 classes of cruisers, many spacecraft). They don't even have a heavy transport like the Argo. But Inferno solved the problem  :cool:

Eh?  The Colossus was a joint venture, about 50% Terran, 50% Vasudan.  Why the warship didn't use Vasudan beams when they were clearly better than their Terran equivalents (ESPECIALLY the slash beams, switching out the TerSlashes for VSlashes makes a noticeable improvement in firepower) I have no clue.  Ah well, my campaign solves this little issue quite nicely  :nod:
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Vip on September 03, 2007, 12:51:23 pm
But Inferno solved the problem  :cool:

Heh, the first time I looked at Inferno's tech-room I was completely "WTF ?!"... I expected new crafts, but not so many. Still, they look... poor to say the least.

And yes, Vasudan beams are definitely more efficient than their Terran counterparts. Still, they are rarely used (basically only Sobeks and Hatshepsuts; Typhons are prone to system failures, and Mentu was never equiped with any beam). However, Vasudan beams on Colossus would rock the day...

BTW. What campaign, Fang_Taichou ? ;D
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Fang_Taichou on September 03, 2007, 12:57:37 pm
But Inferno solved the problem  :cool:

Heh, the first time I looked at Inferno's tech-room I was completely "WTF ?!"... I expected new crafts, but not so many. Still, they look... poor to say the least.

And yes, Vasudan beams are definitely more efficient than their Terran counterparts. Still, they are rarely used (basically only Sobeks and Hatshepsuts; Typhons are prone to system failures, and Mentu was never equiped with any beam). However, Vasudan beams on Colossus would rock the day...

BTW. What campaign, Fang_Taichou ? ;D

A campaign I've been working on.  So far I have 33 missions done (though they need tweaks here and there).  I have more details posted back on page 12 of this thread concerning the Colossus for my campaign (though it's been changed a bit since I posted its specs).
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Gamma_Draconis on September 03, 2007, 01:19:40 pm
The Colossus was suppose to be a joint effort between the Vasudans and Terrans. So why does it use Terran beams instead? Also, is the crew mostly consisted of Vasudans or Terrans?
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Vip on September 03, 2007, 01:29:41 pm
Okey here's another of my crazy theories !

I don't know how accurate the is the info in the "Armaments" table in Colossus entry on FSWiki, but according to it, it has far less weapons than the narrator in the cutscenes produly presents. "Forty five laser turrets, fifteen flak guns, twelve missile batteries and twelve beam cannons", not to mention "60 fighter and bomber wings". However, we never see Collie's fighters, and it has armament much different.

I always assumed that they were short on time and needed to deploy the Colossus ASAP to gain advantage in Epsilon Pegasi, but the Colossus wasn't armed by then. So they gave it everything they had at the time -  a few blob turrets, 12 flaks, 10 missile launchers, 10 aaaf beams and 13 Terran beams. Later, it was needed to stop the NTF from reaching Gamma Draconis and to fight the Sathanas, so it didn't have time to be re-armed. Should it be given more time, Vasudan beams would be installed.

Yes, I know, no proof for that... But it's an explanation as good as any other ^^
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: MercFox1 on September 03, 2007, 01:36:23 pm
Anyways, I've read all 18 pages of this and here's my thoughts:

Another Colossus? I would say YES. But any more than one is a waste of resources. Why one alone wouldn't be a waste of resources?

* Emotional Rallying Point - I'm sure there were minds in the GTVA Security Council that would have rather seen 12 Destroyers or whatever number during the construction of the first Colossus; towards the end of the 2nd Great War, I'm sure those minds would have seen the impressive kill record the Colossus put up, especially against a relatively unknown, new, outclassing-in-every-area Superjuggernaut. Not to mention, despite the loss of 30,000 strong, the lives they saved by merely being a target. Rear Admiral Koth, a notable and decorated NTF general, tried to ram the Colossus; if faced with one or two other destroyers, he might have ran or not pursued the course he did. This is a solitary example, but it nonetheless displays how the battlefield changes when such a construct occupies it. Because Koth chose to kamakazie instead of fleeing, who knows who else was saved from other hit-and-run attacks Koth would have participated in?

* Extensive Testing and Combat-Evaluation Period - You can objectively say that the 2nd Great War was the greatest Op-Eval period a combat ship can ever hope to go through. For being a first-generation "prototype", it destroyed 9 ships (varying from a NTF cruiser to a Shivan juggernaut) and was pivotal in many victories. For being designed to counteract the Lucifer, it outperformed itself in many areas. 2nd Generation refits and design modifications can only improve the excellent foundation the Colossus platform was built on.

* A Semblance of Security - Even if the public does or doesn't know how much of a supposed "logistical nightmare" the Colossus is, it's hard to NOT feel safe with a Colossus in orbit. The veterans of FS2 know better, as there are Sathanas' lurking systems away ready to shred it, if indeed that is their motive, so this isn't as "pro" of a Pro.

* Economic Boosters - Counting on 1 and 3, you could expect to see a boost in the economy of the system designated the construction point of the future juggernaut. With the need for secrecy gone and the construction needs of the Colossus released, its possible that many systems and companies would attempt to win the contract to build the Colossus, increasing the competition and economic plights of many of the systems that could be affected by the loss of Capella and many fleet resources. Once a bid is won, the winning system would most definitely see a large increase in trade and tourism, as intergalactic tourists would want to see the construction of this ship that was once secret. Losing systems, while not in possession of the contract, would not be poorly served by the increase in infrastructure and production ability. The GTVA could contract out the production of other ships, such as new Aeolus cruisers (Aeolus' would be a logical choice, since the reduction in force would necesitate an increase in multi-faceted ships), Deimos corvettes, and larger vessels. At the same time, those systems ramping up their capabilities would also probably need an expanded work force; Capellan refugees would probably be welcomed with open-arms! If I was a Capellan refugee, its no question I would be homesick, but a new planet that needs me, instead of shunning me, would be a very welcome sight.

The downsides?

* Cost - No question that after the collapse of Capella, the GTVA would go through an economic recession. To pay for the ship would be difficult, but not impossible. Note that in the loss of Capella, countless military assets were lost, but except for the 3rd Fleet HQ; all of the other Alliance civillian and trade installations (including those of Polaris, Regulus, and Sirius - I can say this because the Alliance was never sent to destroy any production or civillian installations. The closest thing ever to a civillian craft being destroyed was the NTT Sunder or the NTSC Hinton. It was never mentioned in the briefings (IIRC), and it also wouldn't make sense to if the GTVA was looking to retake those systems quickly. The GTVA could already out-produce the NTF by incredible margins, anyway.) would still be back in the other GTVA systems. The groundwork for a military is there, it's just there isn't as big a military.

* Logistics - Yeah, it would be tough. This ship isn't very manueverable, isn't as flexible, and certainly consolidates firepower that could be better served elsewhere with separate destroyers. Of course, you wouldn't make one Colossus, and that would be it. Other ships would unquestionably follow, negating this effect.

* The Need? - As Alpha 1 said in the end of FS1, "I'm told we can expect them again, but not in my lifetime." He was unequivocally right; they didn't come in his lifetime, but the fact that they might come again is enough motivation to do a lot. This massive warship would be completely ineffective against the pressing needs of anti-piracy and police action, but where's the short-term, long-term balance? It's my opinion that the pirates wouldn't be anywhere near as prevalent (outlying systems, such as in Derelict, would probably already have that problem, anyways) as in some of the non-canon, post-FS2 campaigns, but you can't just dismiss the pirates. On the other side of the same coin, if you spend all of your resources trying to eradicate the pirates, you will be woefully unprepared for the unpredictable Shivan advance.

Thoughts?

EDIT: Removed Enif Station; mistakenly thought that was in Capella, it's really in Epsilon Pegasi.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on September 03, 2007, 01:39:25 pm
Thoughts?

Uhm...

:welcomesilver:

Good theories in your first post! :D
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: MercFox1 on September 03, 2007, 01:40:14 pm
Thoughts?

Uhm...

:welcomesilver:

Good theories in your first post! :D

Hehe, I've been beamed!
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Hades on September 03, 2007, 01:41:24 pm
Are all of your limps still intact? :)
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Vip on September 03, 2007, 01:45:18 pm
My, long have I waited for a first post like that... Anyway, great theories, keep it up MercFox1 !
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: MercFox1 on September 03, 2007, 01:45:26 pm
I hope so.

Question, is there a concrete number where if a Colossus wasn't created, X many other destroyers could be constructed in it's place? I'm sure the time to build a destroyer would be sufficient. The Colossus' build time would undoubtedly be reduced from the first generation, but a close number could still be estimated.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Hades on September 03, 2007, 01:47:19 pm
It would be about 12 years, I would say, because they need to test field checks and such.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on September 03, 2007, 01:49:54 pm
Hehe, I've been beamed!

By Mobius, the Welcome Ace. Remember! :D

Question, is there a concrete number where if a Colossus wasn't created, X many other destroyed could be constructed in it's place? I'm sure the time to build a destroyer would be sufficient. The Colossus' build time would undoubtedly be reduced from the first generation, but a close number could still be estimated.

Colossus = 12 Luciferi

12 Luciferi = 18 destroyers

That's what I think IMO...

It would be about 12 years, I would say, because they need to test field checks and such.

No, they just have to quickly redesign and build it. It would take 8 or so years...unless they make it another supersecret project. It would need about 20 years, in that case.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: MercFox1 on September 03, 2007, 02:00:55 pm
Another thought I just had. Going over my first post again, I mentioned the loss of countless military assets. I just got to thinking, what about the money that remained to support the GTVA's fleet?

Think about it (however grim it may be). The need to pay for probably a couple hundred thousand soldier's salaries is gone. The resources kept in reserve to retrofit or repair all of the ships in combat are suddenly freed up. I think the biggest loss incurred to the GTVA through the whole process is the loss of manpower rather than the loss of equipment. It'll probably take only maybe 5-10 years to get the GTVA military up to snuff again, but the experience lost could take even longer to replace.

The upside of that is, new pilots and ship captains would be growing up with new designs and classes. For example, an admiral used to piloting an Orion can't do the same things at the helm of a Hecate. I'm pretty sure that no one with the rank of Admiral in the GTVA at the time of the 2nd Great War got there by only piloting a Hecate, at least an Orion or Leviathan or something else should have been in there. With more exclusive support to the Hecates (which, in my opinion, would see much greater demand in the post-FS2 world now that a combination of flexibility AND brute force is needed), their effectiveness could be greatly increased.

To take an example of real life, before someone ran the 4 minute mile, it was widely thought that it was impossible; after Roger Bannister did so, if Wikipedia isn't lying to me, 14 people ran times under 4 minutes (including Bannister), including some incredibly low times. Point is, once someone breaks the barrier, it's easy to analyze and discover what needs to change and what needs to stay the same. Military deployment of Hecates, as big of a stretch as this is, are in my mind pretty close to the same thing. Someone just needs to figure out the best way to use them.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on September 03, 2007, 02:10:44 pm
All I can say is:

:yes:

The FreeSpace Wiki needs you, really :)
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Fang_Taichou on September 03, 2007, 02:35:10 pm
MercFox definitely has excellent points about building another Colossus.  One thing I would like to add is that, the Colossus is the ONLY warship the GTVA had which wouldn't get wasted by a single volley of a Sathanas or even a Ravana.  For that matter, it's the only vessel with a reasonable chance of entering Shivan territory, perform its missions then escaping alive (my campaign has an upgraded Colossus under the command of GTVI & SOC, who used it for special operations within a Shivan nebula).
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: MercFox1 on September 03, 2007, 02:37:56 pm
All I can say is:

:yes:

The FreeSpace Wiki needs you, really :)

Yeah, I've used the Wiki a bunch of times. Never edited it, though...
Been a fan of FS since before it came out. It all started with Descent 2. When I heard they were making an "outside" version, I was hooked. Thus, my fandom with the Freespace series started even before it was out.

With the SCP, it's really been great. I'm still a tiny newb with some of the modding and stuff, but I'm learning quick. I'm just hoping all the new ships and stuff haven't messed up my chances of playing Multi (which I also recently found out about, here (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,49012.0.html)).

Thanks, Fang. Hehehe, doesn't hurt to be a big RTS guy sometimes. Helps you think about the big picture.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on September 03, 2007, 02:46:57 pm
Well, the GTVA can barely maintain its systems under its control...I exclude missions deep in Shivan space(Into the Lion's Den is a pseudo-exception).

Yeah, I've used the Wiki a bunch of times. Never edited it, though...
Been a fan of FS since before it came out. It all started with Descent 2. When I heard they were making an "outside" version, I was hooked. Thus, my fandom with the Freespace series started even before it was out.

With the SCP, it's really been great. I'm still a tiny newb with some of the modding and stuff, but I'm learning quick. I'm just hoping all the new ships and stuff haven't messed up my chances of playing Multi (which I also recently found out about, here (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,49012.0.html)).

Thanks, Fang. Hehehe, doesn't hurt to be a big RTS guy sometimes. Helps you think about the big picture.

You should have joined the community long ago. I can imagine you as an Administrator/Moderator.  :drevil:
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: MercFox1 on September 03, 2007, 02:53:15 pm
You know what, I should have. I've been to the HLPBB plenty of times before and just looked in. I always thought I was so far behind I could never catch up, but I used to be big on FS2Multi, back when PXO still worked, I have FSO up to snuff, played through Sync, Transcend, Derelict, a little Inferno, FS1, Silent Threat, FS2 countless times, made a few maps (that aren't too bad actually), and I'm about to see if I can find some FSO multiplayer games.

Go figure why I thought I could never catch up.  :ick:
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on September 03, 2007, 03:06:19 pm
Well, I have also lurked around(a few months, 6-7 I think) before registering :)
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Hades on September 03, 2007, 03:08:06 pm
So did I.
Or I think it was 4 months.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Fang_Taichou on September 03, 2007, 03:16:15 pm
Just a frightening thought:  What kinda mother of beams would we get if a Sathanas overdrives its reactors?   :eek:  The new Colossus would need some long range guns to properly counter (20 k to 30 k range would be sufficient, but the power demands and heatsink requirements for that kinda beam are insane unless the GTVA manages to up the efficiency so that energy loss to heat is minimized and beam cohension can be retained for that range).
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on September 03, 2007, 03:18:42 pm
I know ti may seem a bit strange, but...what if a Sathanas uses its subspace weapon against warships? There's one such feature in Inferno, and there's a reason ;)
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Fang_Taichou on September 03, 2007, 03:25:11 pm
I know ti may seem a bit strange, but...what if a Sathanas uses its subspace weapon against warships? There's one such feature in Inferno, and there's a reason ;)

The subspace weapon that caused Capella to go supernova?  I suppose the Sathanas could use that on the Colossus, but that takes time to charge up and in that time the Colossus has sufficient time to jump out.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Kie99 on September 03, 2007, 03:42:07 pm
I know ti may seem a bit strange, but...what if a Sathanas uses its subspace weapon against warships? There's one such feature in Inferno, and there's a reason ;)

You assume the subspace weapon would have an effect on a warship.  There's no evidence for this, if it would have been some all consuming weapon the Sathanas would have had it charged and used it on the Colossus.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on September 03, 2007, 03:42:47 pm
The Sathanas wasn't facing the Colossus directly.

And Sathanas 17 faced a damaged Colossus, a few beam volleys would have been enough.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: MercFox1 on September 03, 2007, 03:49:04 pm
Would it make sense that the subspace weapon could be used tactically? Might the Shivans use the Sathanas juggernauts to blockade the Capella nodes by preventing a subspace field to generate on the other end? Could they be used to stabilize nodes instead of having to construct a Knossos? Both the destruction of the Capella star and the supposed canonical formation of a new jumpnode to a different universe imply that it has both constructive and destructive powers...

Ooohhh, spooky.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Jeff Vader on September 03, 2007, 03:50:28 pm
If we pay attention to the command briefings, we may deduce that applying the subspace thingamadoodle requires creating the subspace field for quite a long time. I don't remember the exact figures, but the Sathanes were hanging around the sun for several hours, if not even days. I'd imagine that using the sme technique against the Colossus would also demand way too much time to be actually a working method.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Fang_Taichou on September 03, 2007, 03:57:10 pm
The Sathanas wasn't facing the Colossus directly.

And Sathanas 17 faced a damaged Colossus, a few beam volleys would have been enough.

That first Sathanas could've easily turned to face the Colossus, and Sathanas #17 wouldn't have used any subspace weaponry on the Colossus (the subspace pulse seems to drain a MASSIVE amount from a Sathanas' reactors, which is probably why some of the juggernauts didn't/couldn't jump out) since it needs to reserve its power for nuking Capella.  Using it on the Colossus (if it's possible) before the supernova would basically be a delayed suicide, as it would deplete its reactor and leave it without energy for a second pulse or even a subspace jump.

Lobo and MercFox brings up valid points.  If the weapon could be deployed tactically, Capella would've been gone by the time all juggernauts were in position.  Instead, it took several days for them to gradually increase the subspace field around the Capella star before they could use the pulse and cause the supernova.

So, like I was asking earlier, overdriving Sathanas reactors = LRBFRed?  Wonder what kinda range and damage that has  :eek2:
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on September 03, 2007, 04:02:38 pm
That's why they didn't use that weapon on the Colossus: it requires energy. Many Juggernauts, in fact, powered down.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mars on September 03, 2007, 04:16:41 pm
How do we know the Sathanas doesn't overdrive it's beams?
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on September 03, 2007, 04:27:43 pm
The beams seem connected to four small engines, but any other system should continue to work in case of overdrive.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Fang_Taichou on September 03, 2007, 04:34:39 pm
How do we know the Sathanas doesn't overdrive it's beams?

Overdriving causes damage to the reactor, which is what happened with the Colossus.  The Sathanas just plows through everything in its way without stopping, and with only 4 main guns that need to be supplied, the massive reactors of a Sathanas should have no problems maintaining BFReds as standard armament (look at the Lilith, a reactor that small can support an LRed, laser turrets + subsystems).

Shivans have superior reactors, beams and subspace technology, so under normal conditions they don't need to overdrive (causing supernovas would be one of the few cases where they need to).

Besides, if the Sathanas overdrove the reactors, then the rear anti-cap beam would be a BFRed rather than the normal LRed.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mars on September 03, 2007, 04:44:35 pm
Overdriving cause overheating around the beam cannons, AFAIK the reactors weren't the primary problem, also the Colossus continued to move in spite of overdriving its cannons.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Fang_Taichou on September 03, 2007, 05:08:47 pm
Overdriving cause overheating around the beam cannons, AFAIK the reactors weren't the primary problem, also the Colossus continued to move in spite of overdriving its cannons.

Then what was the part about the secondary and tertiary reactors going down with fire-control going red-line?  True, the beam batteries did overheat and that was part of the overdrive problem, but the reactors weren't in good shape either after the fight.

In the case of the Sathanas, its forward tips seem to be able to sustain BFReds pretty much indefinitely, so I doubt they were overdriven.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: AlphaOne on September 03, 2007, 05:57:48 pm
then again the sath could of been designed that way! I mean we already know shivans have better beams so why not have better heatsinks and overdrive capabilaties! For al we know it could take up to 100 shots before the shivans have problems with theyr overdire of beams!
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: MercFox1 on September 03, 2007, 08:28:42 pm
How do we know the Sathanas doesn't overdrive it's beams?

Overdriving causes damage to the reactor, which is what happened with the Colossus.  The Sathanas just plows through everything in its way without stopping, and with only 4 main guns that need to be supplied, the massive reactors of a Sathanas should have no problems maintaining BFReds as standard armament (look at the Lilith, a reactor that small can support an LRed, laser turrets + subsystems).

Shivans have superior reactors, beams and subspace technology, so under normal conditions they don't need to overdrive (causing supernovas would be one of the few cases where they need to).

Did it say the reactor started to take damage on the Colossus? Being somewhat of an EE in training, I don't know how this would affect my view, but I would expect the power cabling leading to the beam cannons and actual parts on the beam cannon to overheat and take damage well before they see a problem with the reactor. Maybe if the reactor cooling or containment was compromised in an attack, but everything that was supplied power from the reactors would start to notice a drop in available juice.

then again the sath could of been designed that way! I mean we already know shivans have better beams so why not have better heatsinks and overdrive capabilaties! For al we know it could take up to 100 shots before the shivans have problems with theyr overdire of beams!

I'm sure they could, but with a fleet of 80 Sathanas juggernauts, why would you need to? I think what Fang said about some juggernauts shutting down is the best indication of any kind of overcharging.

Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Fang_Taichou on September 03, 2007, 09:54:50 pm
In High Noon, the Colossus first shuts down non-essential systems in order to divert power to the beams.  After a bit, Command tells the Colossus to divert more power to weapons, which the Colossus replies back: "heatsinks weren't made for this kind of abuse.  We'll melt down our cannons if we push any harder!"  When the Sathanas is in critical condition, Command comments "The Sathanas hull integrity has fallen below critical!  You're almost there Colossus!", and Colossus replies "Secondary and tertiary reactors are down!  Fire-control is on the verge of red-line!  We're giving it everything we got!"

So, the overdriving of the beams resulted in damage to pretty much everything from the reactors all the way to the beam cannons (beam cannon damaged from overheating, heatsinks wrecked, power conduits probably fried too, and I'd guess the reactors overheated as well from over-use).

If only 1 beam was overdriven, I can see that cannon getting melted long before the reactor takes damage.  However, the fact of the matter was that all the beams were overdriven (AAA beams included), so the total load on the reactors probably overstressed the cooling systems, thus knocking out the secondary and tertiary reactors (overheating the reactors could be considered damage since its no longer in peak shape, and the fact remains that after the Sathanas was destroyed, engineers reported the Colossus' systems at 80% operational, but expected several months to fully repair everything).
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on September 04, 2007, 01:38:41 am
No, it shuts down on essential systems when the Sathanas has sustained moderate damage. And, no matter of what the player did in Bearbaiting and High Noon, the Colossus "sustains moderate damage" in the battle against the Sathanas. That "80% systems operational" could be connected to both the damage sustained and the problems caused by reactor overloads :)
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: MercFox1 on September 04, 2007, 01:54:33 am
Ugh, that's bunk. I was good enough to take down all 4 primary beam cannons before the Sathanas jumped out. No cheats.

"Whoops, Command, we took no damage; lets just shoot ourselves for a while..."
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: nvsblmnc on September 04, 2007, 01:57:26 am
...the Sathanes were hanging around the sun for several hours, if not even days.

That's how I always saw it, a pressure wave increasing with each repitition, very gradually degrading the star's gravitational field at first, but always growing faster and more effective.  The visual effect and subsequent Big Bad BangTM was just a final surge to force the star over the edge.

Just my opinion, though...
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on September 04, 2007, 01:58:55 am
Flak turrets? LRed? :P
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Fang_Taichou on September 04, 2007, 11:39:30 am
Flak turrets? LRed? :P

The flak turrets and LRed on the Sathanas didn't have enough range to fire on the Colossus before it was destroyed.  At the very least, the 20% damage to Colossus systems will include melted beam cannons, heatsink damage and overheated reactors (if you did a perfect run for Bearbaiting:  4 BFReds, both Flak guns and the rear LRed).

I wonder how the Colossus could be disabled?  A few of its engine subsystems are invulnerable.  Though, the fighterbay I can see getting knocked out pretty easy (any more Colossi needs to have 2 or more fighterbays so you can't trap 240 fighters/bombers that easily).
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on September 04, 2007, 12:57:47 pm
Ops, wrong thread. That post was for SF-Junky and his challenge :blah:
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Titan on September 04, 2007, 03:24:47 pm
i may be a kid, but since the GTVA rhules the entire known galaxy, why cant they just TAKE the resources? why cant they just tell the independent shipyards "hey you, yur workin fer us now! GET WORKIN ON MORE COLLIES!!!!!!!!! OOO-RAH!!!!!!!!!!"   :p
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on September 04, 2007, 03:32:04 pm
Since when controlling a handful of systems means controlling a Galaxy? There are billions of stars! :P
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: MercFox1 on September 04, 2007, 05:22:53 pm
The GTVA inhabits a relatively microscopic portion of the galaxy, at the moment; besides, it's just not that simple to do that.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Hades on September 05, 2007, 05:39:52 pm
By Galactic they mean Space-fairing.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: BengalTiger on September 12, 2007, 12:51:36 am
i may be a kid, but since the GTVA rhules the entire known galaxy, why cant they just TAKE the resources? why cant they just tell the independent shipyards "hey you, yur workin fer us now! GET WORKIN ON MORE COLLIES!!!!!!!!! OOO-RAH!!!!!!!!!!"   :p
Because workers would say:
"Hey you, we're on strike until we can have unions, free health care, free deuterium for our civilian ships, a pay rise every week ... and... um...
 oh, and you can't bomb us, because you won't have the shipyard! HA!"

Now a little more seriously, and back to the topic:

I think there should be no more Collossi, here's why:

A fleet of corvettes with a front mounted Mjolnir gun would be useful for hunting bigger ships down. Such a Cv could easily outmaneuver an SJ Sathanas and could be used in groups, with all ships behind the Jug (all it takes is a Pegasus to find out where the Cv's need to warp out), so the Big 'C' loses one job.
 The Corvettes would be useless against anything with good 360* coverage of main guns (unless it's a cruiser that gets killed with one or two Mjolnir shots) so a couple battleships, bigger than a destroyer, but much smaller than a juggernaught, say 3-4km long would need to be built. Their role could be hunting down destroyers, being flagships, or even blockades. Hunting down destroyers and corvettes was what the Big 'C' did best, but you don't really need a 5+ km ship to do that.
 The battleship would need LRMjolnirs (Long Range meaning some 10 km) mounted on rotating turrets to need only one beam cannon to cover both port/starboard, thus lowering main weapons cost (and with 10 such turrets we have the broadside of a Collossus). Less weapons = smaller size, and again smaller total cost. Smaller size = smaller engines required ... etc... and with a ship 4 km long, you could still put lots of armor, giving it similar HP's to the Collossus (judging by textures some parts of Big 'C' didn't have heavy external armor because the frame construction was visible) and some 50 turrets. That makes the Big 'C' WAY overpriced, with it's huge amount of turrets an advantage in only a few situations.
 To hunt down jugs with good all around coverage of main guns, 2 GTVBB's with support from the Mjolnir Cv's forming a battle line could broadside whatever may be used against the GTVA much more effectively than a Big 'C'.
 Since the BB's will be filled with reactors rather than fighterbays, we also need a carrier, more/less the size of the battleship. That way our beam carrying platforms (both the BB's and Cv's) could have almost endless waves of fighter and bomber support. So the last great advantage a Collossus has - it's hangar - can also be delivered to the battlefield better and cheaper.

Would a fleet of a Carrier + 2 Battleships + 10-15 Corvettes be cheaper than a single Collossus? Probably not, but it could be scattered to secure whole systems, and hunt down multiple Sathani simultaneously, things even 2 Collossi can't do.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: nvsblmnc on September 12, 2007, 01:48:57 am
I like the idea of a specialised anti-juggernaught fleet, but the problem I see is that the Shivans have been known to sling a destroyer or two  at forces attempting to hold them off, and a Ravana's frontal attack can quickly toast the known corvette designs.

As these ships traditionally can't take anywhere near the punishment (individually) of a single, heavily fortified ship, this force would probably suffer heavy attrition when engaging Shivan targets, requiring a constant stream of replacement ships and personnel - potentially a massive and sustained draim on resources and morale.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: TrashMan on September 12, 2007, 04:37:49 am
Long-range weapons & stand-off tactics FTW! ;7
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on September 12, 2007, 10:46:48 am
:welcomesilver:

Because workers would say:
"Hey you, we're on strike until we can have unions, free health care, free deuterium for our civilian ships, a pay rise every week ... and... um...
 oh, and you can't bomb us, because you won't have the shipyard! HA!"

Steadfast?

I think there should be no more Collossi, here's why:

A fleet of corvettes with a front mounted Mjolnir gun would be useful for hunting bigger ships down. Such a Cv could easily outmaneuver an SJ Sathanas and could be used in groups, with all ships behind the Jug (all it takes is a Pegasus to find out where the Cv's need to warp out), so the Big 'C' loses one job.

You actually forget:

1) The incredible number of spacecraft housed on the Sathanas;
2) The fact that Mjolnirs are fragile and possibly expensive;
3) The number of reinforcements the Shivans can sortie. The first Sathanas was unlucky, its backup was destroyed. But in a nebular environment there should be reinforcements ready to be sortied. One or two Rakshasas can easily destroy a Deimos, especially if they attack the corvette on its rear;

The Corvettes would be useless against anything with good 360* coverage of main guns (unless it's a cruiser that gets killed with one or two Mjolnir shots) so a couple battleships, bigger than a destroyer, but much smaller than a juggernaught, say 3-4km long would need to be built. Their role could be hunting down destroyers, being flagships, or even blockades. Hunting down destroyers and corvettes was what the Big 'C' did best, but you don't really need a 5+ km ship to do that.

Have you considered the GTD Hades? It was a superdestroyer, and it got killed. Keep in mind that the Colossus faced many ships without even resupplying or going repairs(Into the Maelstrom excluded). The Repulse, the Andronicus and minor ships like the Danton or the Congreve would have reduced the combat capability of a Superdestroyer. They would have easily destroyed it.

And the NTF outmanuevered the Colossus. A Superdestroyer would have been destroyed.

The battleship would need LRMjolnirs (Long Range meaning some 10 km) mounted on rotating turrets to need only one beam cannon to cover both port/starboard, thus lowering main weapons cost (and with 10 such turrets we have the broadside of a Collossus). Less weapons = smaller size, and again smaller total cost. Smaller size = smaller engines required ... etc... and with a ship 4 km long, you could still put lots of armor, giving it similar HP's to the Collossus (judging by textures some parts of Big 'C' didn't have heavy external armor because the frame construction was visible) and some 50 turrets. That makes the Big 'C' WAY overpriced, with it's huge amount of turrets an advantage in only a few situations.

A very heavily armored and armed Superdestroyer would cost...a lot. The Colossus was big, it didn't need a complete plating coverage.

And again, Mjolnirs are fragile.

To hunt down jugs with good all around coverage of main guns, 2 GTVBB's with support from the Mjolnir Cv's forming a battle line could broadside whatever may be used against the GTVA much more effectively than a Big 'C'.
 Since the BB's will be filled with reactors rather than fighterbays, we also need a carrier, more/less the size of the battleship. That way our beam carrying platforms (both the BB's and Cv's) could have almost endless waves of fighter and bomber support. So the last great advantage a Collossus has - it's hangar - can also be delivered to the battlefield better and cheaper.

Two heavy Superdestroyers and a Carrier. At this point, a Colossus is cheaper! :P

Would a fleet of a Carrier + 2 Battleships + 10-15 Corvettes be cheaper than a single Collossus? Probably not, but it could be scattered to secure whole systems, and hunt down multiple Sathani simultaneously, things even 2 Collossi can't do.

This "fleet" can be easily destroyed. Juggernauts and destroyers vaporize corvettes(Sathanas and Ravana), the Carrier will need continuous cover and, as I said, the superdestroyers would be vulnerable in certain circumstances.

There should always be a certain number of fighters defending this fleet. A waste of money and a terrible risk. 20 fighters can form patrol on a Colossus efficiently.

Try to imagine something like The Great Hunt, with one addition: many, many Shivan bombers. The pilots will have to move continuously as the warships have to maintain a safe distance for obvious reasons. This will result in extensive damage to the fleet.

By The Way, Welcome to the HLPBB! :D
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: BengalTiger on September 12, 2007, 02:07:20 pm
You actually forget:

1) The incredible number of spacecraft housed on the Sathanas;
2) The fact that Mjolnirs are fragile and possibly expensive;
3) The number of reinforcements the Shivans can sortie. The first Sathanas was unlucky, its backup was destroyed. But in a nebular environment there should be reinforcements ready to be sortied. One or two Rakshasas can easily destroy a Deimos, especially if they attack the corvette on its rear;
Actually not:

1) That's why my fleet needs a carrier, and a pretty big one;
2) That's why I want to put them inside a Corvette chassis, not a turret with an engine;
3) With a single Big 'C'- once it's there, you can only warp out... with a fleet, you can warp out the corvette ambushed by a capship in a matter of seconds (that would require a change in tactics so the Cv can warp out instantly without the Command's green light), and warp 3 new ones or a Battleship somewhere where the enemy can't reach it with it's main guns. In other words- such a specialized fleet can play the Shivans' game of capship dogfighting.
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Have you considered the GTD Hades? It was a superdestroyer, and it got killed. Keep in mind that the Colossus faced many ships without even resupplying or going repairs(Into the Maelstrom excluded). The Repulse, the Andronicus and minor ships like the Danton or the Congreve would have reduced the combat capability of a Superdestroyer. They would have easily destroyed it.
But it had almost unarmored subsystems and like 20 anti strike craft turrets...
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And the NTF outmanuevered the Colossus. A Superdestroyer would have been destroyed.
Because a single huge and slow ship is detectable from thousands of kilometers away, so all you have to do is warp out 4 klicks away from it and you're safe.
 Let's say the NTF group warps out at a safe distance from the capships. They still have a dozen of corvettes and a thousand strike craft to worry about.
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A very heavily armored and armed Superdestroyer would cost...a lot. The Colossus was big, it didn't need a complete plating coverage.
But since it's 1,5-2 kilometers shorter, it won't need so much research (actually- almost no research, use the shipbuilding experience of the Big 'C', and develop only the rotating turrets with beam cannons), thus lowering it's price. Also, since it would require smaller subsystems, more production facilities would be able to make them, again lowering the price. And the smaller size would mean less material for the frame and armor (well maybe not the armor since it needs more HP than a Hades), further lowering the price and making it possible to get it built a lot quicker.
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And again, Mjolnirs are fragile.
That's not really much of a problem when they'll be inside heavily armoured turrets.
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Two heavy Superdestroyers and a Carrier. At this point, a Colossus is cheaper! :P
But not by a huge amount since most of the research and development is already done.
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This "fleet" can be easily destroyed. Juggernauts and destroyers vaporize corvettes(Sathanas and Ravana), the Carrier will need continuous cover and, as I said, the superdestroyers would be vulnerable in certain circumstances.
But a well placed corvette in 'A Monster in the Mist' appeared to be a problem for the Sath :p Now imagine it had a Mjolnir instead of the 2 pretty weak beams :beamz:
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There should always be a certain number of fighters defending this fleet. A waste of money and a terrible risk. 20 fighters can form patrol on a Colossus efficiently.

I agree here- a dozen (or more) fighters and bombers would need to cover each capship and many more to escort the Cv's. But a task force still has the advantage of warping in/out in multiple places, surprising the enemy many times, even if it's the enemy who planned the ambush.

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Try to imagine something like The Great Hunt, with one addition: many, many Shivan bombers. The pilots will have to move continuously as the warships have to maintain a safe distance for obvious reasons. This will result in extensive damage to the fleet.
Since a carrier would have much more strike craft maintenance and repair facilities than a Hecate, I think it would be possible to arrange enough fighters to cover both corvettes without the need to move from one ship to the other continuously, even when all fighters come home damaged from all missions.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on September 12, 2007, 02:37:03 pm
Ops...I was writing a reply and an energy failure cancelled my work :mad:

I'll reply ASAP... :mad:
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Fang_Taichou on September 12, 2007, 04:20:15 pm
BengalTiger, VSlash is not weak.  It's not the strongest, but it can be compared to the BGreen in terms of sustained firepower.

Also, when fighting Shivans, don't try to outnumber them as you will fail miserably.  Would you use masses of cruisers, corvettes and a couple of destroyers/supdestroyers vs. Shivans, or build a few upgraded Colossus juggernauts and have them blockade a jump node?  I can tell you right away that anything below a superdestroyer will get turned into mincemeat by constant Shivan beam fire (think waves of Lilith cruiser wings).

Besides, the Colossus was quite decent (though it should have Vasudan beams and reactors instead of crappy Terran ones), so the GTVA simply needs to develop better technology to combat Shivans effectively (long range beams, precision anti-ship fire-control systems to prioritize enemy beam cannons/turrets first & other vital subsystems, support ships that re-arm/repair hull + subsystems, stealth bombers to deliver surprise strikes against warships, etc.).
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: BengalTiger on September 12, 2007, 06:07:01 pm
Guess I've stirred up the hive...

BengalTiger, VSlash is not weak.  It's not the strongest, but it can be compared to the BGreen in terms of sustained firepower.

From Freespace Wiki:

Sustained damage per second: VSlash-688, BGreen-776, Mjolnir-1500
So the VSlash is pretty powerfull (a bit more than I thought), but Mjolnir is close to 2,5 VSlashes.

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Also, when fighting Shivans, don't try to outnumber them as you will fail miserably.  Would you use masses of cruisers, corvettes and a couple of destroyers/supdestroyers vs. Shivans, or build a few upgraded Colossus juggernauts and have them blockade a jump node?  I can tell you right away that anything below a superdestroyer will get turned into mincemeat by constant Shivan beam fire (think waves of Lilith cruiser wings).
And that's why pulling back without bureaucracy and exiting subspace behind the Sathanas is an important part of the use of the corvettes. Also, I never wrote that I want 'masses of cruisers'...
And another thing I didn't write about before- recon. With stealth fighters tested in Freespace 2, a few years later they should be more available, allowing the GTVA to quickly find a juggernaut without escorts to shoot down.
With 5 Mjolnir Corvettes, each doing 1500 HP/second damage, and a battleship with 10 such beams, it would take them 44,5 seconds to eat the 1 000 000 HP of the Sathanas. A bit less with a strike force from the carrier, lets say 35-40 seconds. After that, everybody jumps the hell out, and the couple hostile cruisers that arrive aren't going to do much damage.
Also for the price of my anti-juggernaut task force you could build a Big 'C' and a few destroyers maybe... Not really that much if you want to warp out every ship in danger and replace it by a few new ones in better positions.
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Besides, the Colossus was quite decent (though it should have Vasudan beams and reactors instead of crappy Terran ones), so the GTVA simply needs to develop better technology to combat Shivans effectively (long range beams, precision anti-ship fire-control systems to prioritize enemy beam cannons/turrets first & other vital subsystems, support ships that re-arm/repair hull + subsystems, stealth bombers to deliver surprise strikes against warships, etc.).
I agree that the Colossus was a decent ship, but there wasn't any other jug to save it when it was getting shot up, and that's why I want 2 ships, with 50% the mass of a Big 'C' (plus the carrier).
And making an even bigger jug will probably end up in an even bigger faliure, because the Shivans always seem to get larger guns than the GTVA. The stealth strike craft and hull repairing support ships are a whole different story here, but I guess they'd fit in the carrier's hangarbays :p
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Rico on September 15, 2007, 12:43:47 pm

The canon information that we do have confirms that the entire fleet has been destroyed, it's right there.
No, the whole of the 3rd fleet was destroyed, however there is still the 1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th, 6th and who knows how many other fleets GTVA has  :wtf:

Quote
Besides we all saw the Sathanas take out that hecate in under 5s in Bearbating.  What good would making more Hecate's do when the Colossus was really the only thing that could stand toe to toe with a Sathanas.  I think the  GTVA should build more Colossus' at least for the meantime while it works to develop better destroyers or super destroyers that can actually last against a Sathanas.
Perfect example, the Colossus is the only ship that can stand toe to toe against a sathanas. Why waste $$ and lives on ships that are inadiquate. Its like sending in 20 WW2 shermans against a modern Leopard 2, ur wasting your time/lives  :nervous:
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: someddrnoob on September 15, 2007, 01:28:05 pm
It may be plausible that the Hades would replace the Colossus as the flagship of the GTVA, otherwise the GTVA would have expended most of their resources spending decades on rebuilding a portal similar to the Knossos.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on September 15, 2007, 03:12:12 pm
The Hades?!?

The contruction of a second Colossus, if the project is public, would take about eigh years in my opinion. And the Terran Knossos would take less than five years. In the second case I'm assuming we're talking about something like TrashMan's Terran jump gate, not the Inferno GTI Melia ;)
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Gamma_Draconis on September 15, 2007, 04:14:43 pm
What makes you think the Knosso will take less then 5 years? We're talking about building a completely foreign piece of technology. This will be the first time GTVA scientists work with Ancient technology and it isn't just some fighter or cruiser.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on September 15, 2007, 04:45:45 pm
The Knossos, though big, is still nothing compared to a Colossus. There's going to be a problem. I think the GTVA will have to build an immense specialized shipyard just where the Knossos is going to be built. Something like the Andromeda for the Icanus.

And:

1) It wouldn't be first time for GTVA scientists. They have been studying Ancient artifacts for over 30 years!

2) We have no canon info proving that the effectiveness of a Knossos depends on the material used to build it. The movement creates a subspace vortex, GTVA materials should be fine;
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Kie99 on September 15, 2007, 05:35:18 pm
According to the debrief of "A Flaming Sword" a new Knossos would take "Decades" to complete.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on September 15, 2007, 05:42:11 pm
According to the brain of a human, a Knossos wouldn't take years to complete :P

Without considering the fact that even after "A Flaming Sword" there couldn't be enough info to build it and give an ETA.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Kie99 on September 15, 2007, 07:02:51 pm
According to the brain of a human, a Knossos wouldn't take years to complete :P

Without considering the fact that even after "A Flaming Sword" there couldn't be enough info to build it and give an ETA.

I believe the exact quote was "A project of that magnitude would take decades to complete", so you're looking at a bare minimum of 20 years.  A Knossos is bloody enormous, 20 years is the best low end estimate we have.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: BengalTiger on September 15, 2007, 09:09:56 pm
Besides we all saw the Sathanas take out that hecate in under 5s in Bearbating.  What good would making more Hecate's do when the Colossus was really the only thing that could stand toe to toe with a Sathanas.  I think the  GTVA should build more Colossus' at least for the meantime while it works to develop better destroyers or super destroyers that can actually last against a Sathanas.
Perfect example, the Colossus is the only ship that can stand toe to toe against a sathanas. Why waste $$ and lives on ships that are inadiquate. Its like sending in 20 WW2 shermans against a modern Leopard 2, ur wasting your time/lives  :nervous:
We've also seen the Big 'C' get destroyed in a couple minutes...

In WW 2 terms:
If the Colossus was an equivilant of a Yamato, a Big 'C' mk 2 would probably be like the Super Yamato class the Japanese were designing.
So I want 2 Iowas and the USS Midway   :P

P.S. Guess I'll have to learn making models and test my idea, because we could go on to infinity with the 'which would be better: 1 [email protected]$$ juggernaut or 2 smaller but still [email protected]$$ ships with a carrier and a small fleet of corvettes' discussion...
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on September 16, 2007, 05:48:38 am
I believe the exact quote was "A project of that magnitude would take decades to complete", so you're looking at a bare minimum of 20 years.  A Knossos is bloody enormous, 20 years is the best low end estimate we have.

A Knossos is bloody enormous? The shipyard would be enormous. The generators designed to power up that thing will be enormous. And they can't take 20 years. A Knossos means returning back to Sol, all Terrans would give their contribute!
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Oddgrim on September 16, 2007, 06:43:26 am
The construction of a new Knossos port shouldn't take too long in my opinion ( not as long as the collie )but the reverse engineering of the technologies used in the said portal would. Supposedly they where able to extract all of the needed data of it before command blowed it up in a big expensive fireworks show and just not bits and pieces of it.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on September 16, 2007, 06:48:17 am
Correct. There are going to be problems in making the thing work, not building it. The Colossus was a secret project and needed 20 years. A Knossos would be different. All Terrans would give their contribute, come on...
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: TrashMan on September 16, 2007, 07:28:27 am
According to the brain of a human, a Knossos wouldn't take years to complete :P

Without considering the fact that even after "A Flaming Sword" there couldn't be enough info to build it and give an ETA.

I believe the exact quote was "A project of that magnitude would take decades to complete", so you're looking at a bare minimum of 20 years.  A Knossos is bloody enormous, 20 years is the best low end estimate we have.

Petrach is giving a rough estimate, but that's not really his field. The scientists have to shuffle trough a lot of data so I guess the estimate wil lchange as time moves on, but looking at the mass/volume of the Knossos, it ain't that big. Each of the smaller parts is corvette sized, the bigger ones are twice as large. No problem for the GTVA shipyards to build those parts - it's prolyl that designing a terran jump gate that will take time..not the construction itslef.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Kie99 on September 16, 2007, 09:27:16 am
We have no reason to believe the Knossos would take less than 20 years, and every reason to think it would take that or longer.  Realy don't see where you're coming from saying it would take less than 10.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on September 16, 2007, 09:30:37 am
Why you don't look at it and imagine the situation rather than remaining stuck on a line from the main campaign?
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Fang_Taichou on September 16, 2007, 10:59:10 am
Why you don't look at it and imagine the situation rather than remaining stuck on a line from the main campaign?

The finances of the GTVA just got hit by losing Capella, the Colossus, 2 Orions loaded with expensive Meson bombs, most of the 3rd Terran Fleet and 13th Vasudan Battle Group, and now they have to take care of all the refugees.  Sounds like a limited budget for the Knossos, at least for the first years post-Capella.

They also need to rebuild Regulus, Polaris and Sirius because of the aftermath of the NTF rebellion, so that too will be a drain on resources.  The Knossos will cost quite some time and resources/manpower, and the first prototype will require far longer to complete because of fundamental & technical problems encountered in the process (the Colossus took over 20 years to build and it was the first of its kind, I'd say the same applies to the Knossos, even though the Knossos consists of less mass its still similar in complexity; how do you get those ring components to align & generate those interlocking movements needed for making a subspace vortex, what power source did the Anicents use to run it, and are the material compositions important to the process, and if so how easy are those elements to acquire?)
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on September 16, 2007, 11:12:42 am
1) Again, don't overestimate the loss of Capella. There's no canon evidence of a terrible economical blow. You base your opinion on custom campaigns;

2) The Colossus' loss isn't an economical one;

3) The Bastion and the Nereid were two SCRAPPED Orionis = no loss;

4) The Meson bombs are expensive...but can they inflict a severe blow to GTVA's economy?

5) The fleets/battlegroups you mentioned can be easily disbanded. Their components can be reassigned to other fleets. This would reduce the "military impact" on a post Capella GTVA. It happened before in Terran history;

6) Rebuild Regulus, Polaris and Sirius? As far as I know, there haven't been planetary assaults. Without considering the marines mentioned in the first debriefing, we can assume that the NTF civil war was ebsentially a space conflict. I don't think there are "systems to rebuild". Their situation can't be compared, for example, to post WWII Germany, Italy and Japan;

7) The Colossus took 20 years because it was a supersecret project. Only a limited amount of money could have been diverted to the Colossus project. Remember that the post Great War GTA had serious political problems. Rather than spending "5" at once to build the Colossus, the GTVA spent "1" or "2". In a post Capella GTVA it would be possible to spend "5" or even more. Do you get my point?
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Bob-san on September 16, 2007, 12:20:27 pm
No doubt in my mind--Capella was a major colony. Still, most of the people got out and still need somewhere to settle. I'd say they'd probably go to some outlying systems. Other then that, much of the military and civilian hardware got out of there (yes, heavy losses, but remember the 3rd Fleet and 13th Battlegroup were basically engaging Shivans all around Capella--they might have only had a few corvettes able to help you, but then again they rarely sortie anything bigger then a Corvette.

Next, you're right---the Colossus wasn't an economical loss, it was a huge morale loss. If the morale causes the GTVA to mourn and not continue working, that'll become quite the economical loss. Also, the loss of the finest ship in the entire GTVA took thousands of officers, crewmembers, and pilots--most of them are some of the best in the GTVA.

You're right--but how much was spent on bringing them out of mothballs that quickly? If they were scrapped, their turrets would be removed, subsystems reused, and basically everything torn out. Just think of what happens when the US Military sells a military craft? They basically tear it apart, making it nearly useless.

Meson bombs--they wouldn't make a big difference on the GTVA's economy because they were research programs.

The fleets and battlegroups would be reorganized, probably bring a few mothballed ships back into service until shipyards lost could be reestablished and more ships could be manufactured.

The NTF had to be including the planets--after all, they need resources and a base population to fuel their military. It would be nearly impossible if only rogues joined the NTF--the NTF simply had too people. Also note that NeoTerra was an ideal--to setup a new Terran capital in the Polaris system (always visible from Sol). Remember that Admiral Bosch "Gave the Lost Generation something to die for"--much like the generations of the 14 Years War and the Great War. That being said, I think it's safe to assume that at least 5% of Terrans (not including those that are possibly still in Sol) would be willing to join the NTF as part of the military. Even with those numbers, the NTF was made up mostly of die-hard young men and women and older officers who still distrust the Vasudans (surrounding the core of Bosch and his highest officers). The fact that NeoTerra was an ideal, the core systems of Polaris, Regulus, and Sirius all choose to join the NTF by popular choice (before some of their fleets were absorbed into the NTF), and the fact that the NTF had such support to do what it did says that they're a wider-spread problem and rebuilding will not be easy. The core systems would likely be fine economically, but severely injured socially and politically (after Bosch dies and they're seen as rebels). They won't be like WWII Germany, Italy, or Japan... they're more like Cold War USSR (untouched but society is injured and politics is changing again).
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on September 16, 2007, 12:26:49 pm
1) No doubt, Capella was an important colony...but most civilians were saved and there are plenties of "important colonies" in Terran-Vasudan space. It was a terrible blow, I agree, but considering the loss of Capella something that would have affected the GTVA for years and years...hell no.

2) Let me see...what should the rebel ground troops do in a planet surrounded by the GTVA? What if the GTVA forces the NTF to surrender...or be destroyed with a planetary bombardment?
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: morriscat on September 16, 2007, 12:53:26 pm
In WW 2 terms:
If the Colossus was an equivilant of a Yamato, a Big 'C' mk 2 would probably be like the Super Yamato class the Japanese were designing.
So I want 2 Iowas and the USS Midway   :P

I'm splitting hairs here, but this isn't really a fair comparison. The Yamoto only displaced 65000 tons to the Iowa's 45000, and despite Yamoto's greater firepower, the Iowa was a more sophisticated ship in many ways, and most people think it was overall a better ship.


P.S. Guess I'll have to learn making models and test my idea, because we could go on to infinity with the 'which would be better: 1 [email protected]$$ juggernaut or 2 smaller but still [email protected]$$ ships with a carrier and a small fleet of corvettes' discussion...

The issue is that you can't generate any kind of absolute value judgement because it totally depends on what kind of fight you're in and what kind of engagements you're expecting.  The problem with the Colossus isn't that it's a poorly thought out ship, it's that it isn't very versatile. The Colossus is a fleet-buster; You get your enemy to field an entire group of destroyers and escorts in one place and then the Colossus blasts right into the middile of their formation and engages them all simultaneously. This is why the C's primary guns are evenly distributed around its hull, and it really couldn't be better-designed for this sort of thing. Think about how easily the Colossus could have busted up the Shivan fleet in the Derelict campaign, for example? One Colossus against three destroyers and a dozen escorts is just what the C was built for, and it would have shredded them.

Overall, the Colossus is a much better ship than the Sathanas. Sath is a one-trick pony. If it can jump in on you and attack immediately, nothing can stand in its way. However, it depends pretty much absolutely on the element of surprise. The GTVA proved pretty conclusively that if you know where a Sathanas is, you can beat it down pretty easily by hitting it with fighters and bombers from the front and destroyers and corvettes from the flanks. A Colossus is a MUCH more able to defend itself against attacks of this kind.

(On an aside, it just occured to me that an NTF-centered campaign where you're trying to defend against/kill the Colossus would be pretty slick, has it been done?)

However, if your opponent isn't interested in concentrating his forces, the Colossus doesn't do such a good job. It's really only good at attacking or defending single points where a lot of force is being concentrated. If your opponent won't concentrate his force or commit his ships to pitched battle, then the Colossus becomes pretty useless. A post-Capella GTVA doesn't have any enemies around with big fleets, so they don't really have anybody to use a Colossus on. If there's enough paranoia about the Shivans coming back, then you'll see at least one or two new Colossus-class ships being built.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Kie99 on September 16, 2007, 01:30:01 pm
Why you don't look at it and imagine the situation rather than remaining stuck on a line from the main campaign?

Its a fictional technology in a fictional universe for Christ's sake.  Any estimates we make are from an out of universe perspective, the estimates made by the fictional Vasudan are from in-universe, so why will you have a better idea than them?  The answer is that you won't.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on September 16, 2007, 02:03:03 pm
Mine is not a "canon VS not-canon" discussion, it's simply a "Don't trust entirely lines from the game, especially the ones coming from characters who don't have a clue on what they're talking about".
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Kie99 on September 16, 2007, 02:18:52 pm
Whereas you do have a clue about how long it would take for the fictional GTVA to build a large fictional device.  The Vasudan Commander (at the bloke who wrote the debriefing for :v:) is infinitely more well informed than yourself.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on September 16, 2007, 02:22:39 pm
Why would you trust a Vasudan Commander who barely knows what the Terrans are capable of? A member of the military has no clue on space building. And we're talking about something able to reopen the SOL jump node, man!
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: jr2 on September 16, 2007, 02:34:24 pm
Mobius has a point... but the truth is, depending on how hard it is to reverse-engineer the Knossos, they might even take 40 years, if they hit the wrong kind of obstacle.  Physically building the Knossos structure isn't a problem; reverse-engineering, designing, testing, and building the electronics are.  Oh, and Mobius, unless that Vasudan Commander was a complete dumba**, where do you think he pulled his estimate from?  The news?  No, don't think so.  Fellow soldiers?  Don't think so either.  Umm, hmm, perhaps he got briefed by the scientists working on the project!  (Sorry, but I had to play devil's advocate... I'll be interested to hear your reply.  :D )

Oh, and kies?  We know its a fictional universe... really.  You can trust us on that.  ;)
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Kie99 on September 16, 2007, 02:41:11 pm
Why would you trust a Vasudan Commander who barely knows what the Terrans are capable of? A member of the military has no clue on space building. And we're talking about something able to reopen the SOL jump node, man!

He has more clue than you, a human on Earth, 300 years behind the times!  This is incredibly obvious, wake up!  He's bound to know more than anyone in the real world.

Good Lord, I'm debating about this as if it was reality.  This is perfectly simple, real people know less about the technologies and space capabilities of the GTVA than highly ranked people within the GTVA's military.  I have nothing more to say on the matter.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: jr2 on September 16, 2007, 02:43:32 pm
(http://i17.tinypic.com/4ypdfo8.jpg)

:eek2:
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on September 16, 2007, 02:45:54 pm
That was a Vasudan who loved Ancient artifacts. He/she might have exaggerated, in my opinion. A Terran would have said something different.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: jr2 on September 16, 2007, 02:47:29 pm
Mobius, kies, both of you read my post @ the top of the page.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on September 16, 2007, 02:51:47 pm
And read my previous posts. We all know the Vasudans and their particular behaviour. A Terran would have said "Oh, what a  pity..it just blew up! Well, we built the Colossus in 20 years...it was a secret project...I think we can build up another hula-hoop in less than 10 years".
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: jr2 on September 16, 2007, 03:22:28 pm
Physically building the Knossos structure isn't a problem; reverse-engineering, designing, testing, and building the electronics are..  ..perhaps he got briefed by the scientists working on the project!
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Mobius on September 16, 2007, 03:30:01 pm
Which, according to you, is possible. :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: TrashMan on September 16, 2007, 04:23:42 pm
We kow that the GTVA is very adept at reverse-engeneering alein stuff...look at shield, beam cannons, dragons and maras... that didn't take decades.
Also don't forget the GTVA has studied the ancients since their discovery (30+ years), so re-buulding the Knossos isn't nearly as big of a deal as you make it out to be.
Now if tehy have never seen alien tech before or if they knew nothing about the ancient, then I'd say - sure.

But thte GTVa has acess to tech from 4 different races and a lot of experience with tinkering.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Karabiner on September 16, 2007, 04:24:28 pm
What do you reckon?  Would the GTVA concentrate its resources into making more destroyers and corvettes, or an improved Colossus design, bearing in mind that it would take significantly less than 20 years to build another one.  The Colossus was a success at what it was designed for, crushing rebellions and eliminating destroyers, and any attempt to emulate the Sathanas would fall woefully short with the GTVA's tech level.

i think this was supposed to be the topic. don't you?  :nod:

it would be better making more research into destroyers capable of standing better ground with armour to withstand a shivan juggernaught and at the same time, be able to fire back and get a bit of bite. the corvettes need more upgrading.

20 years for another colossus?, if i was the head of the GTVA i would say a big 'no way'. look at the offset; the colossus requires to be maintained daily, continuous shipments of combustable explosive gases, and thousands of men, and looking at the tech level the GTVA are thousands of years behind the shivans in technology (stolen shivan shields is an example).

if the colossus would not make much of a dent in one sj, what you think 2 of these ships will do? it might destroy one sj, but what about the other 90 + sj's out there?. executing the better part of valor is the answer, give up and find another answer.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Kie99 on September 16, 2007, 04:55:34 pm
We kow that the GTVA is very adept at reverse-engeneering alein stuff...look at shield, beam cannons, dragons and maras... that didn't take decades.
Also don't forget the GTVA has studied the ancients since their discovery (30+ years), so re-buulding the Knossos isn't nearly as big of a deal as you make it out to be.
Now if tehy have never seen alien tech before or if they knew nothing about the ancient, then I'd say - sure.

But thte GTVa has acess to tech from 4 different races and a lot of experience with tinkering.

Yeah, the Vasudan commander knows that as well, and he gives the estimate of "Decades", we have no reason to doubt that, between A Flaming Sword and the end of FS2, that timescale would only increase with the loss of Capella and the massive casualties taken.

What do you reckon?  Would the GTVA concentrate its resources into making more destroyers and corvettes, or an improved Colossus design, bearing in mind that it would take significantly less than 20 years to build another one.  The Colossus was a success at what it was designed for, crushing rebellions and eliminating destroyers, and any attempt to emulate the Sathanas would fall woefully short with the GTVA's tech level.

i think this was supposed to be the topic. don't you?  :nod:

it would be better making more research into destroyers capable of standing better ground with armour to withstand a shivan juggernaught and at the same time, be able to fire back and get a bit of bite. the corvettes need more upgrading.

So why not use the better armour on Colossus II.  You're going to need a monster of a ship to defeat a Sathanas, and the purpose of another Colossus would not be to defeat Sathanes.

Quote
20 years for another colossus?, if i was the head of the GTVA i would say a big 'no way'. look at the offset; the colossus requires to be maintained daily, continuous shipments of combustable explosive gases, and thousands of men, and looking at the tech level the GTVA are thousands of years behind the shivans in technology (stolen shivan shields is an example).

if the colossus would not make much of a dent in one sj, what you think 2 of these ships will do? it might destroy one sj, but what about the other 90 + sj's out there?. executing the better part of valor is the answer, give up and find another answer.

It wouldn't 20 years, all designing and prototyping is already done.  The building of a second Colossus would be much faster than that of the first, and the ship would probably be superior as well due to new reactor tech.

Furthermore, the Colossus is not supposed to take down multiple Juggernauts.  the Shivans are so, so far ahead of the GTVA, that the GTVA won't catch up for centuries anyway.  Colossus II would ensure rebellion could never happen because it would be so easily crushed within days.  The only realistic hope of stopping the Shivans if they decide to exterminate the GTVA is the destruction of Jump Nodes, and example being 2 or 3 Meson loaded destroyers in every system.
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: BloodEagle on September 16, 2007, 05:44:19 pm
look at the offset; the colossus requires to be maintained daily, continuous shipments of combustable explosive gases, and thousands of men ...

Where did you get that information from?  :confused:
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: wdarkk on September 16, 2007, 05:47:00 pm
Really, IMHO the terrrans' best option would be to put the Helios into mass production asap. Who cares how much damage a sathanas can do if it's had its four main cannons blown off?
Title: Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Post by: Goober5000 on September 16, 2007, 06:55:22 pm
This thread is getting tired.  This thread needs to sleep.