Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: aussie_freespacer on October 15, 2007, 01:55:23 am
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Might be a stupid question but I don't think it is. What do you reckon happened to him?
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Search the forums and you'll find discussion about the subject.
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It isn't cannon, but Singh has made a wonderful story on the subject, I'm only halfway through. Look in Fan Art.
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Might be a stupid question but I don't think it is. What do you reckon happened to him?
Not a stupid question... but one of those that nobody besides :v: knows. It's Big Unanswered Question #2, #1 being: "why did the Shivans blow up Capella?"
It would have been addressed in FS3... which of course never came about. So nobody really knows.
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It isn't cannon
Never fear, the grammar inquisition is here. Yet again, a cannon is a big thing that you can shoot with. Like this (http://www.people.exeter.ac.uk/nkjdatta/photos/abroad/macau2/cannon.jpg) one.
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...........What do you reckon happened to him?
.......... So nobody really knows.
So all those who are doing post-capella campaigns can decide it. ;7
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Exactly. :nod:
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...........What do you reckon happened to him?
.......... So nobody really knows.
So all those who are doing post-capella campaigns can decide it. ;7
Capella is too big and vastly spread to post. ;)
Bosch either got killed, escaped or made an alliancce with the Shivans. Or he could have gotten drunk drinking his own beer.
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Might be a stupid question but I don't think it is. What do you reckon happened to him?
Not a stupid question... but one of those that nobody besides :v: knows. It's Big Unanswered Question #2, #1 being: "why did the Shivans blow up Capella?"
It would have been addressed in FS3... which of course never came about. So nobody really knows.
I have a feeling that if we knew what happened to Bosch, we'd be able to infer why the Shivans blew up Cappella. Anyway, I would rather know what happened to bosch at least.
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Or he could have gotten drunk drinking his own beer.
Bosch: Hey, Ssssharno, ya know whatshhh great?
Sarno: Whatsss 'at?
Bosch: We shudd make a wepern and go ki-ki-kick shome Shivers.
Sarno: Letssh call 'er attack.
Bosch: OI! I'm the one ma-ma-makin the dercissins 'ere. Lets call 'er etak. Attark's to naturll soundin'.
Sarno: Hehehehehe... Letsh call 'er ETAK, like, you know, an acornerm, keep those Gee-Vee-Tee's guessin'
*Both giggle drunkenly*
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My theory:
The Capella BBQ was Bosch's idea.
He loaded the Iceni with Bosch Beer, told the Shivans he's comming and ran off to party.
Since the GTVA wasn't invited and wasn't happy about it, the pursuit was on.
Everything else is in the main FS 2 campaign I guess.
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I wish bosch hadn't destroyed the iceni. Given the second knossos device going to the binary system. He could have gotten away with his purdy seriously hardened ship.
Bosch obviously made an allliance with the shivans. that's all that's really known. As far for his involvement with the 80 sathani incident, it can be speculated upon.
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...Singh has made a wonderful story on the subject...
Sorry to disappoint you, but I'm pretty sure that story is dead, he stopped halfway through and left us all hanging. :( I sent him a PM regarding the subject but have gotten no reply.
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how about that the shivans double crossed bosch and bosch is some sort of test subject for the shivans.
The reason for BBQing Cappella....keep us from stopping with their experimaents, cutting us off from them until i was time to strike again.
also, in FS1 i believe, the shivans were referd to as the galaxy's immune system, killing off species thet travel through space, to keep them fromn conquering the entire galaxy. we beat them twice..maybe they are restradegizing, if that is a word...third time is the charm :)
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also, in FS1 i believe, the shivans were referd to as the galaxy's immune system, killing off species thet travel through space, to keep them fromn conquering the entire galaxy. we beat them twice..maybe they are restradegizing, if that is a word...third time is the charm :)
One small detail. It was implied that they annihilate species that travel through subspace. The Ancients conquered the worlds they could reach with 'normal' traveling methods without being disturbed. Only when they discovered subspace and really began to spread through the galaxy did the Shivans interfere.
Also, the Shivans weren't quite 'beaten' in FS2. They blew up a sun and then just vanished. You can't really call that a victory, with all the massive Terran and Vasudan ship losses 'n all. Also, with 80+ Sathanes the Shivans could've eradicated both the Terrans and the Vasudans with one eye closed. This is of course speculation but they must've been planning something, since in normal war you don't just go and blow up a sun when the enemy is clearly outnumbered and outgunned.
Despite this,
:welcomered:
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The Shivans motives are never explicitly stated and are left to the players interperatation
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...Singh has made a wonderful story on the subject...
Sorry to disappoint you, but I'm pretty sure that story is dead, he stopped halfway through and left us all hanging. :( I sent him a PM regarding the subject but have gotten no reply.
Someone (Goob?) said that he will continue it if he has time (or something like that). Singh was active on the third, though.
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i remember a while back there was this Poll called "what was your favorite part of FS3?" (WTHWTHWTH) one of the options was "finding Bosch as a human/shivan Hybrid" (WTHWTHWTH!!!!)
id say that about sums it up :D
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We could also point out that destroying Capella's sun by making it go supernova didn't actually cut anyone off from anything. Capella was destroyed sure, but the complete destruction of everything in a system doesn't destroy the subspace nodes leading into and out of the system. The nebula in Gamma Draconis was surmised to be the remnants of a star that went supernova some time in the past, and nothing prevents travel through it now. Cutting off Capella was the GTVA's idea.
Explaining the destruction of Capella by attributing fear of the GTVA to the Shivans is a terrible cop out, and goes against everything we know about them as well as the observable facts. The anomaly they caused, the means they used to jump out (and where they were going), and their motives for doing so are utterly alien from a human or vasudan viewpoint, as are the shivans themselves.
Giving the shivans human qualities like fear, or interpreting their motivations in human terms is doing them a great injustice. The Shivans are terrifying not merely because they are xenophobic and overwhelmingly powerful, but because we know nothing about how they think, or why they act as they do.
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And how did one get from GD to the nebula?
KNOSSOS PORTAL... maby supernovas DO collapse all nodes....freaky
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It's possible, but extremely unlikely. If all the Knossos devices led into or out of the nebula then it would be (somewhat) reasonable to assume the system's past destruction made the construction of those gates a necessity. The 3rd Knossos outside the nebula, while not entirely eliminating your theory from consideration, does make it far more of a leap to arrive at your conclusion.
Canonically we've only been shown 1 method for destroying a subspace node: A detonation of sufficient magnitude while something is still partially inside a jump corridor. Travel through subspace has the rather steep requirement of...oh, a subspace drive. No matter how devastating a supernova's shockwave might be, it's extremely unlikely it's going to travelling through anything but normal space. After all, a subspace node has no real footprint in normal space, your hud has to indicate them with a graphic because there's no normal way to even see them, and without activating a jump drive you could fly through it over and over and never get anywhere but the other side (of the graphic).
The Knossos stabilizes (or creates?) subspace nodes, but any speculation on the initial cause of instability is just that: Speculation. In this case though it's speculation without a reasonable grounds, because supernovas don't have jump drives.
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I don't believe a supernova itself can harm a jump node, but the effects of it might.
Consider: jump nodes require a gravity well in order to stay stable. I'm no expert in star implosions, but don't neutron stars or white dwarfs have a much weaker gravity than a main sequence star? The jump nodes might destabilize due to the gravity weakening.
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I have little doubt that he was taken away to be "probed" by the Shivans. Just goes to show some people get exactly what they deserve ;7
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And how did one get from GD to the nebula?
KNOSSOS PORTAL... maby supernovas DO collapse all nodes....freaky
And maybe they don't. No evidence in either direction.
Consider: jump nodes require a gravity well in order to stay stable. I'm no expert in star implosions, but don't neutron stars or white dwarfs have a much weaker gravity than a main sequence star? The jump nodes might destabilize due to the gravity weakening.
Neutron stars have to have more mass than the sun to form in the first place. So although the change in mass of a supernova event may have some effect it certainly doesn't follow that a neutron star wouldn't be able to have jump nodes.
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Neutron stars have to have more mass than the sun to form in the first place. So although the change in mass of a supernova event may have some effect it certainly doesn't follow that a neutron star wouldn't be able to have jump nodes.
Correct :yes:
Canonically we've only been shown 1 method for destroying a subspace node: A detonation of sufficient magnitude while something is still partially inside a jump corridor. Travel through subspace has the rather steep requirement of...oh, a subspace drive. No matter how devastating a supernova's shockwave might be, it's extremely unlikely it's going to travelling through anything but normal space. After all, a subspace node has no real footprint in normal space, your hud has to indicate them with a graphic because there's no normal way to even see them, and without activating a jump drive you could fly through it over and over and never get anywhere but the other side (of the graphic).
Both the Lucifer and the Bastion collapsed the nodes when they were "cut in two parts", one in normal space and the other in subspace. It could be the only possible condition, the Bastion could have completely entered subspace before exploding, but it didn't. I assume the Nereid did the same thing. There must have been ships on the GTVA side of the node(either coming from Capella or placed there to defend GTVA space from Shivan ships), the shockwave and the debris would have damaged or destroyed freighters, transports and cruisers(and possibly corvettes and destroyers).
So, though my theory isn't fully supported by canon, I think the shockwave wasn't enough to collapse the node.
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Consider: jump nodes require a gravity well in order to stay stable.
I haven't perused the Freespace reference bible lately, but the techroom topic on subspace only mentions the requirement of a massive gravity well for short range intra-system jumps: In other words, that type of subspace travel is only possible because of the gravity well (star).
Unlike inter-system jumps, an in system jump is essentially creating it's own bridge to another point in a star system. Before the jump drive is engaged there wasn't a corridor from point A to B: The drive both allows transit through subspace and creates the road you travel along, as it were.
Subspace travel between systems utilizes existing corridors; the starting point and destination aren't in our control and the corridor existed before anyone fires up a subspace drive. The gravity well requirement isn't mentioned, and I would posit that it's not a factor.
As for why nodes might collapse on their own: According to the techroom, most subspace corridors are extremely unstable, the ones in use are just those nobody expects to collapse soon (an interesting definition of permanent). Keep in mind this is just based on Terran and Vasudan research into the phenomenon, so if nodes act that randomly without introducing catastrophe into the equation, explaining node collapse due to supernova becomes even more of a leap.
On the topic of subspace, I tend to view subspace travel in terms of wormholes: Inter-system drives allow you to travel through natural wormholes, and the intra-system drives generate short lived and artificial wormholes, but only inside of a gravity well. Whether the mechanics of a (theoretical) wormhole and subspace travel are in any way similar to each other doesn't really matter, it's just a way of looking at the concept. But it would explain why you can't just fly through subspace to leave wherever you like, as it's very much a tunnel that requires a start and end point before hand (for in system jumps) or a tunnel that only goes one place anyways (inter-system jumps).
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Possibly, but in that case I would suspect that they might have found some nodes that lead directly into deep space. Every single node they use apparently connects to a star system. That is a lot of jump nodes. So, it is my belief that, due to gravity or whatever else, jump nodes only form near stars.
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The fact that every single node the GTVA uses leads to another star system doesn't exclude the possiblilty of nodes that lead you straight to the middle of nowhere, it just means the GTVA only uses nodes that are (relatively) stable and useful I'd imagine the corps of explorers would have far more detailed maps then what we see in command briefings, since there's no point in displaying nodes considered too unstable for use or nodes we know don't go anywhere useful.
Even if every node we've ever discovered and traveled through has led to another system, it still doesn't preclude the possibility that the nodes too unstable for travel lead somewhere else besides another star system. If that was the case you would have Occam's Razor on your side of course, and I'd concede that it's a fairly reasonable and likely explanation. But to my knowledge we haven't been given a canonical answer to this particular question.
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You're right. The subspace tech description does say stuff about that. If nodes are appearing and disappearing in seconds, I'd say some of them have to lead to random places.
But maybe jump nodes need a large gravitational mass like a planet or star, but even so I think some nodes would lead you to nowhere.
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First, an intrasystem jump can occur between two points in a star system. Most small, space-faring vessels are equipped with motivators capable of these short jumps. The presence of an intense gravitational field is required, prohibiting travel beyond the boundaries of a star system.
The wiki page (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Subspace) has some stuff to say about that, also.
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Now back on topic.
What I think happened to Bosch?
Anal probe.
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I think he may have been instrumental in negotiating some sort of cease-fire. As he says he bears no hatred to Vasudans, he may have proved the link between the GTVA and the Shivans. We all unite under one front. Vasudans get a new home, we find a way back home, Bosch marries his Shivan lover and I get magically resurected and made Admiral of the new GTVSJ Unite.
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I think he may have been instrumental in negotiating some sort of cease-fire. As he says he bears no hatred to Vasudans, he may have proved the link between the GTVA and the Shivans. We all unite under one front. Vasudans get a new home, we find a way back home, Bosch marries his Shivan lover and I get magically resurected and made Admiral of the new GTVSJ Unite.
And then die again when the GTVSJ Unite turns out to be a kamikaze bomb.
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Howdy, new to the Forums but thought I'd chime in.
The fact that Bosch actually made it off the Iceni and onto Shivan transports alive and intact tells me that he was able to communicate just enough with the Shivans to negotiate some kind of truce between them (though not necessarily with humanity as a whole). As such, I can only assume that the Shivans have an intelligence (whether hive mind or not) that can be reasoned with using crude communication. Using an old psychological cliche', "The Shivans may not be evil, merely misunderstood."
I've always postulated that the Shivans are merely the militant wing of a more civilized power and the collapse and subsequent supernova of the Capella star was a beacon of sorts. As many an astronomer knows, supernova are among the brightest phenomena in the known universe and what better way to say "mission accomplished" than to raise the victory flag in the middle of enemy territory.
I'm currently designing a campaign (who isn't?) regarding this interpretation from the viewpoint of the remnant of GTVA ships left in the Capella system after the supernova. Undoubtedly, a few ships survived and they band together to survive in Shivan-infested territory. Anyway, Bosch makes an appearance and gives a little explanation to the destruction of Capella while admitting his own ignorance of Shivan logic. Basically, the star's destruction is the sign of victory for outsiders looking in. Who the outsiders are is anyone's guess.
That's my 2 cents. Great forum you have here.
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3, 2, 1... FIRE!
:welcomegreen:
The one thing I would like to clarify is: are you suggesting that some ships survived the supernova, or are you saying they jumped into Gamma Draconis at the last minute?
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If the supernova was a victory flag, it would take dozens of years to reach the nearest stars.
Welcome!
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Maybe this race controlling the Shivans has an altered time perception, and 12 years is like one day or something... and they need the Shivans around to defend them against us, who "move" so much faster.[/silly theory]
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I've been reading Between the Strokes of Night too much... :sigh:
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Ok, to explain a little further...
The Capella system, while based around the star, might extend a light-year or (maybe more) from the star itself. Even with a supernova, there will be areas of space around the star that have not been affected by the explosion because of the distance (even at light speed, a gamma ray burst wouldn't touch a space station on the fringe of the system for a year). The plot revolves around a SOC installation that is on the fringe of the Capella system and top-secret until the supernova. The installation sent out a homing beacon to any ships that may have survived. Only one corvette, a few cruisers and a couple fighters (which of course, you as a pilot are one of them) survive the explosion so we're not talking an entire fleet here.
As for the beacon, I knew someone would say "Um, it would still take thousands of years for the light to reach such a civilization" and normally, you'd be right. However, as we all know, Shivans have been using Subspace far longer than humanity, Vasudans, or even the Ancients. My assumption is that the Shivans can peer through subspace (think space-folding) and see things far quicker than a typical light telescope.
As the campaign unfolds, it becomes readily apparent the Shivans are not twiddling their thumbs in Capella and, unfortunately for the GTVA, not bound to the system because of a couple collapsed jump nodes.
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Wow, that is some expensive victory sign. Blow up a star and lose multiple Sathanas just so you can tell your people that you are kicking ass. It's like the US lining up 1/4 of its fleet and then simultaneously blowing them all up with the crew on them... Kinda extreme?
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I still think that when the Shivans blew up Capella they made a mistake... doesn't make sense that they'd destroy so much of their own fleet...
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I don't think that many Sathanas' were lost. Before the star exploded, many of them jumped to Subspace. Given that the GTVA know that the Shivans know much more than us about Subspace, it could be that the Shivans knew of a node near the star, or are capable of inter-system jumps without the need for a node.
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No, not that many Sathanes were lost, I'll agree, but a large number of destroyers, cruisers, corvettes were lost to the star's explosion as well.
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Yes, most of the Sathanas vessels seemed to jump out via whatever it was they did to Capella, but they did lose more then a few. And that's highly disturbing when you stop to think about it. The fact that they have over 80 Sathanas class vessels is pretty terrifying all by itself, but evidence that they consider it expendable? It makes me wonder what they have that we haven't seen, or if there are thousands of those vessels.
As for Capella's destruction acting as a victory beacon? That seems rather far fetched, considering Shivan vessels were still fighting us when they triggered the Supernova, and the fleet didn't bother to advance any further into GTVA space then Capella in the first place. True, they had us scrambling to retreat in the face of an overwhelming force that could have easily destroyed the GTVA (Let's face it, had they acted like the Lucifer fleet we'd all be dead), but there wasn't any victory of substance for them to mark. I think it's a pretty safe assumption that they blew up Capella for a different reason entirely.
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My observation of that ani leads me to conclude that around 20 Saths were lost, if not more.
Either a massive f*** up by hte shivans or Saths are REALYL expendable.
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..or they had no other choice :nervous:
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Have I posted my theory in this thread yet? Snail's Theory (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Snail%27s_Theory)
As for Bosch, he turned into a happy-slapping chav after being abducted.
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I agree with Admiral Wolf, only a few juggernauts were lost (as seen from the cutscene). The Destroyers, Corvettes, and other ships caught in the supernova were, as many have said, expendable.
Now then, in response to Marcus Vesper, you could have stuck a fork in the GTVA prior to Capella because they were done. They knew it, the Shivans knew it, and anyone watching the conflict would know it, too. Even if the GTVA would have fought to the bitter end, victory was assured the moment the Colossus went down. A single Sathanas destroyed most of a GTVA fleet (remarked if you fail to get all beam cannons in Bearbaiting) by itself so the chances of the GTVA somehow taking down even a few juggernauts with Destroyers and Bombers borders the impossible. Even if the Shivans knew that the Capella nodes were being collapsed, they could still plant their flag in Terran-Vasudan space and know they own that territory.
I read Snail's Theory and like it, though I add a caveat to the whole Hive-mind thing (which somewhat resembles Warhammer 40k's Tyranids). While I agree the Shivans are Hive-minded, they were created that way to serve as the ultimate fighting force. They will always win the war of attrition because they have no morale to break, they outnumber their foes 10:1 and they have technology that rivals or surpasses everything they encounter. They are relentless.
On the other hand, I believe they're on a leash. It wasn't until the Ancients began conquering the galaxy and raising hell via subspace that the Shivan hounds were released. With tech that rivaled the Shivans, the Ancients put up a fight but they never had a chance to win. The same goes for the Great War with Terrans and Vasudans fighting previously and sending great fleets through subspace. It is my belief that Lucifer fleet was a slap on the hand to tell the Terrans and Vasudans to play nice and in doing so, forged an alliance between the species that also ended the war.
The Sathanas fleet incursion was merely a show of arms. The GTVA thought they were high and mighty with their flashy juggernaut and beam cannons and with all the subspace activity to crush the NTF, the Shivans were brought out again to put the Terrans and Vasudans in their place. They were not originally out to conquer Terran-Vasudan space but when the GTVA began assaulting them, they acted in self-defense. The destruction of Capella had two purposes: 1.) to crush the morale of the GTVA via a display of power and 2.) tell their masters that the mission was accomplished.
The Masters, as I have coined, are actually benevolent and the Shivans are simply their army. When Bosch communicated with the Shivans, he learned that the Shivans were not out to destroy but to subdue. The Ancients were out of control and had to be put down by the Shivans but the Terrans and Vasudans were given a chance to correct their mistakes and keep surviving. Without some kind of unseen power keeping the Shivans at bay, there is no way the GTVA would have survived as long as it did.
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We could also point out that destroying Capella's sun by making it go supernova didn't actually cut anyone off from anything. Capella was destroyed sure, but the complete destruction of everything in a system doesn't destroy the subspace nodes leading into and out of the system.
Subspace nodes exist only in star systems with a gravitational field. The destruction of the star would probably collapse the nodes.
That said, Capella had 4 suns.
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I read Snail's Theory and like it, though I add a caveat to the whole Hive-mind thing (which somewhat resembles Warhammer 40k's Tyranids). While I agree the Shivans are Hive-minded, they were created that way to serve as the ultimate fighting force. They will always win the war of attrition because they have no morale to break, they outnumber their foes 10:1 and they have technology that rivals or surpasses everything they encounter. They are relentless.
In my theory, the Shivans were a form of life that evolved (or were created) in subspace. If you've read my theory, then you'll understand Shivan background and their predicament, but what my theory really fails to answer is why the Shivans seem to be xenocidal (which is kind of stupid since that's one of the main questions for a Shivan theory to answer, but oh well). There are two possible reasons for the Shivans being xenocidal.
First: They see subspace as "territory," and nuke species which use it incorrectly or harm it (here called "subspace disturbances"). Hence, they destroyed the Ancients and countless civilizations before them who caused subspace disturbances. Going toward subspace disturbances is convenient because Shivan fleets would be able to meet up at the sites of former civilizations which caused these subspace disturbances.
Second: The Shivans were attacked by the Ancients, and so destroyed them, and were attacked by the GTI/other secret groups, and so destroyed the Terrans and Vasudans.
The Sathanas fleet incursion was merely a show of arms. The GTVA thought they were high and mighty with their flashy juggernaut and beam cannons and with all the subspace activity to crush the NTF, the Shivans were brought out again to put the Terrans and Vasudans in their place. They were not originally out to conquer Terran-Vasudan space but when the GTVA began assaulting them, they acted in self-defense. The destruction of Capella had two purposes: 1.) to crush the morale of the GTVA via a display of power and 2.) tell their masters that the mission was accomplished.
The Masters, as I have coined, are actually benevolent and the Shivans are simply their army. When Bosch communicated with the Shivans, he learned that the Shivans were not out to destroy but to subdue. The Ancients were out of control and had to be put down by the Shivans but the Terrans and Vasudans were given a chance to correct their mistakes and keep surviving. Without some kind of unseen power keeping the Shivans at bay, there is no way the GTVA would have survived as long as it did.
The existence of the masters is a possibility but it seems a little strange to nuke stars just as signs or to crush morale. Going around vaping destroyers would seem to do the latter, and using the Shivan Communication Devices (they're called "Communication Nodes" and would be used for "Communication") would succeed at the former.
In my thoery, it was Bosch who told the Shivans of the location of the other Shivan fleet. He communicated with multiple Shivan vessels who sent the word out to "Sathanas Fleet Command" to send in the Sathanes for a superjump to meet up with the Shivans on the other side. The Sathanas fleet did not destroy the GTVA because they really couldn't be bothered to kill them. I would compare the GTVA not to flies (harmless things), but to something like bees, wasps or hornets (mostly harmless things which do sting, but not kill). Meeting the Shivan fleet on the other side is a higher priority than taking out a hornet's nest.
Subspace nodes exist only in star systems with a gravitational field. The destruction of the star would probably collapse the nodes.
I don't think so. There are nodes leading to the Shivan Nebula from Gamma Drax (though they are stabilized by a Knossos, it proves it is possible for Subspace nodes to lead back to nebulae).
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I do like the theory Snail. Is there an endgame to it, such as all the Shivan fleets re-uniting? What happens then? (I shudder to think of the rampage that could be).
In my theory, Bosch tries to contact the Shivans but instead ends up speaking to the Masters. Bosch does end up convincing these beings to call off the dogs but not before Capella gets nuked. It's only then does Bosch realize exactly how powerful the empire of the Masters/Shivans is.
I don't know if you guys have ever heard about the Kardashev Civilization Types before but I'd imagine such an empire would be a near-Type III. The GTVA at its height may have been at a Type 1.5 or so which means it was totally outclassed by orders of magnitude.
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The cutscenes from FS1 seem to indicate the Ancients attacked the Shivans first, and the existence of the Knossos would indicate they found the Shivans, not the other way around. I'm inclined to believe the conclusion Bosch made about the Shivans and the 9 cities of Troy was incorrect.
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But then, the Shivans found us, and not the other way around. Which suggests they were, for whatever reason, looking for us.
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But then, the Shivans found us, and not the other way around. Which suggests they were, for whatever reason, looking for us.
I don't think they were looking for us so much as found us. To explain further, I shall point you to the first post I ever made here, which outlines my theories on that subject.
http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,18138.msg877440.html#msg877440
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I do like the theory Snail. Is there an endgame to it, such as all the Shivan fleets re-uniting? What happens then? (I shudder to think of the rampage that could be).
Then they go away back into the flux of subspace and we all live happily ever after. :P
Seriously though, when the Shivans get back together, they'd start re-expanding their empire and reopen the Supernodes.
The cutscenes from FS1 seem to indicate the Ancients attacked the Shivans first, and the existence of the Knossos would indicate they found the Shivans, not the other way around. I'm inclined to believe the conclusion Bosch made about the Shivans and the 9 cities of Troy was incorrect.
Both of them could've been moving, and met somewhere in the middle. Then there was some fighting and the Shivans won. I find it impossible to believe that a species as powerful as the Shivans wouldn't have been for a long, long time. How could a species capable of mustering 80 juggernauts, and considering them expendable, only be around for the time of the Ancients?
But then, the Shivans found us, and not the other way around. Which suggests they were, for whatever reason, looking for us.
They wanted to know who was dicking around with subspace there.
I don't think they were looking for us so much as found us. To explain further, I shall point you to the first post I ever made here, which outlines my theories on that subject.
http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,18138.msg877440.html#msg877440
The question that always sticks in my mind is one that none of these non-canonical theories about the Shivans ever seems to address: Why did the Shivans wait 30 years to send a follow up force, and why didn't they reappear in the systems they first attacked? The Ancients believed they had trespassed, overstepped their bounds somehow. From the voice over narration, it doesn't sound as if the Shivans found them, but the other way around. Their empire was greater then the limits of known space, and yet most of the jump nodes (admittedly not ALL of them) that are not already known are too unstable for any but the masters of subspace travel (The Shivans). It seems patently obvious when the Knossos is first unveiled: This was the mechanism the Ancients used to stretch their empire across more worlds then man currently knows. The discovery of a second and then 3rd Knossos cements that.
Answering that question as well as the technological gaps between the first and second fleets is one of the major questions that is answered in my theory.
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I agree with Admiral Wolf, only a few juggernauts were lost (as seen from the cutscene). The Destroyers, Corvettes, and other ships caught in the supernova were, as many have said, expendable.
My analyisis was rather simple...
Count the number of the Saths on the screen (X). Count the number of the dead ones (Y).
How big a percentage is X from the Sath total (80) 80/X = Z
Thus, approximate number of dead Saths = Y*Z
EDIT: IMHO, I find both your and Snails theory lacking..and frankly I don't like em. But we don't have any canon theory so the more of our own we ut up, chances are sooner or alters somone will get it right....We'll never tough tough. :p
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EDIT: IMHO, I find both your and Snails theory lacking..and frankly I don't like em. But we don't have any canon theory so the more of our own we ut up, chances are sooner or alters somone will get it right....We'll never tough tough. :p
How so? Put them on the Wiki talk page.
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I wouldn't suggest that the Shivans were completely peaceful, sitting around their small corner of space until the Ancients started attacking them, just that the Ancients built the road, step by step, to their own eventual doom at the hands of the Shivans by constructing Knossos portals.
As for the 9 cities of Troy analogy, if the Ancients had just built the only road to Shivan regions of space, then there couldn't have been any civilizations here previously annihilated by the Shivans, so Bosch's idea that countless species had been wiped out by the Shivans throughout history would be incorrect. For our galaxy anyways, who knows how many species have met their end at the hands of the Shivans in the uncharted expanses of space?
Another point of contention about the Shivans that gets brought up is the whole "Great Destroyers/Great Preservers" angle, which takes the ending cutscene from FS1 as it's primary inspiration. I don't agree with either aspect of those theories, that the Shivans are somehow the guardians of space or the preservers of non-advanced life. In the case of vasudans and humanity though, they may very well have inadvertantly been directly responsible for our continued existence: by wiping out the expansionistic Ancients (and leaving) they prevented us from becoming yet another casualty of their empire. In that specific case Shivans did act as our preservers, I would contend it was an unintended side effect.
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Everything that we have seen from the Shivans would indicate they are agressive. However, this is only our interpretation, seeing as any communication or studies of the species from either the GTA, PVN or GTVA have resulted in loss of live. However, one man called Aken Bosch, somehow manages to not only communicate with them, but also attempt at calling a cease-fire. This leads me to believe that although the Shivans appear to be a "Shoot first, ask questions later" type, they may be willing to negotiate a truce if we ever reattempted ETAK.
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Of course, when they boarded the Iceni the Shivans proceeded to slaughter the crew, so Bosch's exit may not have been under pleasant terms for him. Ever seen Mars Attacks? Just because we can communicate doesn't mean we know what we're saying/hearing precisely, and it certainly doesn't mean both parties are being truthful.
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Out of all the theories on the wiki, Snail's is the best. But I don't like the idea of Shivan fleets broken off from one another.
Personally, I think that there has to be something else out there that has made the shivans so powerful. I mean, why build 80 Sathanas juggernauts if all you're doing is eradicating weaker foes? They could have accompplished the same thing with 80 Demons/Ravannas. Or even 40 Lucifers. I just feel that the Shivans have a bigger fish to fry. That's why they sent such a small fleet in fs1: they need to concentrate their forces on something else, and the Lucifer was a proven success. When it failed, they planned to finish the job when they could spare the forces to do it: and that's why they only send in one Sathanas at first.
As for what they did with Bosch..... maybe they planned to 'educate' him on what was going on in the bigger picture, and then give him back.
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I don't know if you guys have ever heard about the Kardashev Civilization Types before but I'd imagine such an empire would be a near-Type III. The GTVA at its height may have been at a Type 1.5 or so which means it was totally outclassed by orders of magnitude.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kardashev_scale
Interesting. :nod:
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i think he just got Vaped *aka :snipe: or :beamz:*
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If I'm really honest, a fleet of Lucifers would scare me more than more Sathanas. It doesn't seem like Sathani are able to carry out planetary attacks, whereas it only takes one Lucifer to practically destroy 1 planet. Do we even know if our Beam Cannons or Mjonirs can penetrate the Lucifer shield?
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If I'm really honest, a fleet of Lucifers would scare me more than more Sathanas. It doesn't seem like Sathani are able to carry out planetary attacks, whereas it only takes one Lucifer to practically destroy 1 planet.
Well... a Sath can probably not only change a planet into a wasteland, but it could also detonate a planet with it's subspace rift thingy.
Do we even know if our Beam Cannons or Mjonirs can penetrate the Lucifer shield?
They were designed to. If a AAA beam goes through shields, I think a Mjolnir should hurt the Lucifer.
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It doesn't seem like Sathani are able to carry out planetary attacks...
Just because we haven't seen them do it, doesn't mean they can't. Personally I believe any ship with a big beam cannon could carry out such a planetary bombardment.
After all, when discussing the bombardment of Vasuda Prime, it says "the Lucifer fleet bombarded Vasuda Prime from orbit for thirteen hours straight...", not just the Lucifer itself, which suggests that Demons and even Liliths and Cains might have been participating.
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This would also explain why the Vasudans tried to escape from Cygnus Prime, maybe the NTF planned a bombardment on the last Vasudan positions. There were NTF ground forces on the surface of that planet, ok, but trying to escape without sufficient cover was a suicide.
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With respect to the issue of subspace, I would just like to point out a couple things:
1. subspace travel beyond solar systems for terrans and vasudans is impossible, at least technologically
2. we are well aware of how the shivans behave in solar systems, but not necessarily in subspace or beyond solar systems
3. we are unaware of how intrasystem jumps affects extrasystem jumps or extrasystem subspace, if possible or if it exists.
4. we are quite unaware of the exact subspace technological limitations of the ancients and the shivans, except for the fact that they are far superior to the GTVA.
5. The first ancients cutscene states:
Ours was a proud people, and always the strongest. For thousands of years our empire expanded. For so long we could imagine ourselves alone in the universe. For so long never did we encounter advanced life. And we travelled faster and further spreading in our galaxy and before long we could see the day when our reachable systems would have been exploited. And then there would be nowhere else to go.
And we discovered subspace. It gave us our galaxy and it gave us the universe. And we saw other advanced life. And we subdued it or we crushed it. In months the extermination of billions of years of evolution on a similar but slower path. With subspace our empire would surely know no boundaries.
There are several remarkable facts about the ancients in this passage:
i. Before they discovered subspace travel and for thousands of years, the ancients likely travelled between solar systems (if not, how else?)
ii. the ancients state emphatically and without qualification: with subspace our empire would surely know no boundaries. Unless the speaker is being far too general, the soundest interpretation of that phrase would mean that the ancients anticipated and had travelled anywhere in the known universe, which includes extra-solar space where there is little "gravity" as compared to in a solar system.
There are several possibilities that have never been discussed in spite of these facts:
i. is it possible that the ancients still exist somewhere, possibly in extra-solar space? If subspace travel in fact is impossible in extrasolar space it is conceivable that there are remnants of the ancients still there after thousands of years of exploration, perhaps stranded.
ii. is there a greater relationship between the shivans and extrasolar space than previously discussed?
iii. can a knossos device operate in extrasolar space? to what degree?
iv. perhaps the shivans are attempting to reach an area in extrasolar space?
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I interpret The Ancients differently. As you say,
With respect to the issue of subspace, I would just like to point out a couple things:
Ours was a proud people, and always the strongest. For thousands of years our empire expanded. For so long we could imagine ourselves alone in the universe. For so long never did we encounter advanced life. And we travelled faster and further spreading in our galaxy and before long we could see the day when our reachable systems would have been exploited.
By the sounds of it, they first invaded and colonised the planets in their home system, much like us colonising Mars. Couple that with with being able to reach other systems. Either the Ancients had super fast craft capable of travelling between systems without Jump nodes, or they may have had the technology to use suspended animation or crogenics.
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We'll all be drafted and dead before mars is colonized.
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IIRC, extrasolar subspace jumps are impossible. Subspace requires large gravity wells - that doesn't exist out there in open space between systems. There's nothing of interest there anyway. Why would ANYONE want to travel there?
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it would make the perfect warzone if we were to encounter an alien race
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Ours was a proud people, and always the strongest. For thousands of years our empire expanded. For so long we could imagine ourselves alone in the universe. For so long never did we encounter advanced life. And we travelled faster and further spreading in our galaxy and before long we could see the day when our reachable systems would have been exploited. And then there would be nowhere else to go.
And we discovered subspace. It gave us our galaxy and it gave us the universe. And we saw other advanced life. And we subdued it or we crushed it. In months the extermination of billions of years of evolution on a similar but slower path. With subspace our empire would surely know no boundaries.
I think what happened was, the Ancients were like the Romans of our era. Except they conquered their ENTIRE planet with little resistance. And somehow, they managed to unite their entire planet as one and then set out to colonize planets in their own solar system. Take note, that it took them thousands of years to do this, just like how it took the humankind around 10,000 years to reach its current stage. You could say it was actually 3000 years, from the dawn of civilization to the current time period.
Then when they realized they could no longer expand, they discovered subspace. Then, just like the Vasudans and Terrans, they started to colonize distant planets and this drew the attention of the Shivans. They had been traveling in subspace just as long as the Terran and Vasudans did. The Ancients did NOT use subspace for over centuries. They spent centuries conquering without subspace, like the Humans/Terrans or possibly Vasudans, but spend almost the same amount of time as the Terran and Vasudans did using subspace travel.
This explains why the Ancients were around the same technological level as the Terran and Vasudans. Minus 5-10 years difference in advancements and the fact that the Terran and Vasudans had to develop more rapidly because of the Great War. As for why it took the Shivans so long to exterminate the Ancients, perhaps the Ancients had colonize some systems that did not have any accessible subspace node via the giant colony ships. But the Shivans were persistent, and took to using conventional means of travel to wipe out the last of their race. This further more leads me to the theory that the Ancients lived in a system without any accessible subspace nodes. They must have had to resort to using subspace nodes in close-by systems.
My theory for how the Ancients conquered other systems before subspace is, that the Ancients used massive colony ships that reach nearby systems. They would land on those planets and find no sentient life. So they began colonizing a handful of perhaps 2-3 systems. Then, they realized they could no longer expand. That is, until they discovered subspace which gave them the ability to expand much more rapidly.
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it would make the perfect warzone if we were to encounter an alien race
There's nothing of interest there anyway. Why would ANYONE want to travel there?
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What if the Knossos had a second function. We know their primary function was to stabilise collapsed/violate subspace nodes, but what if they linked to eachother? The shivans seem to have worked to this theory, when we see Sathani jump through different Knossos in the Dive, Dive Dive mission.
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By the sounds of it, they first invaded and colonised the planets in their home system, much like us colonising Mars. Couple that with with being able to reach other systems. Either the Ancients had super fast craft capable of travelling between systems without Jump nodes, or they may have had the technology to use suspended animation or crogenics.
I agree. The ancients most likely had to travel between systems at sublight speeds.
I think what happened was, the Ancients were like the Romans of our era. Except they conquered their ENTIRE planet with little resistance. And somehow, they managed to unite their entire planet as one and then set out to colonize planets in their own solar system. Take note, that it took them thousands of years to do this, just like how it took the humankind around 10,000 years to reach its current stage. You could say it was actually 3000 years, from the dawn of civilization to the current time period.
Then when they realized they could no longer expand, they discovered subspace. Then, just like the Vasudans and Terrans, they started to colonize distant planets and this drew the attention of the Shivans. They had been traveling in subspace just as long as the Terran and Vasudans did. The Ancients did NOT use subspace for over centuries. They spent centuries conquering without subspace, like the Humans/Terrans or possibly Vasudans, but spend almost the same amount of time as the Terran and Vasudans did using subspace travel.
This explains why the Ancients were around the same technological level as the Terran and Vasudans. Minus 5-10 years difference in advancements and the fact that the Terran and Vasudans had to develop more rapidly because of the Great War. As for why it took the Shivans so long to exterminate the Ancients, perhaps the Ancients had colonize some systems that did not have any accessible subspace node via the giant colony ships. But the Shivans were persistent, and took to using conventional means of travel to wipe out the last of their race. This further more leads me to the theory that the Ancients lived in a system without any accessible subspace nodes. They must have had to resort to using subspace nodes in close-by systems.
My theory for how the Ancients conquered other systems before subspace is, that the Ancients used massive colony ships that reach nearby systems. They would land on those planets and find no sentient life. So they began colonizing a handful of perhaps 2-3 systems. Then, they realized they could no longer expand. That is, until they discovered subspace which gave them the ability to expand much more rapidly.
That is an interesting theory Gamma_Draconis. With much respect I have to disagree at least in part. I break down and understand the first part of the ancient monologue in the following clauses:
1. The ancients were proud and the strongest people.
2. For thousands of years their empire expanded.
3-4. For an extremely extended period of that time as the ancients expanded they did not encounter any advanced life.
5. As they made advances exploring the farther reaches of the galaxy, the ancients were concerned that all their reachable systems would have been stripped and their resources exhausted.
6. Consequently they wouldn't be able to go anywhere.
It is true and possible that the ancients could be referring to their expansion over a planet in clauses 1-2. However, this is belied by the juxtaposition of the term "exploration" and "explore" with universe and galaxy immediately in clauses 3-6. There is no mention of a planet per se. Clauses 3-6 indicate that the ancients had been travelling beyond their solar system for a great part of those thousands of years and it seems telling that it is never referred to anything less like "centuries" or "decades" or "a couple of years". Instead the passage refers only to the expansion of the ancients over their galaxy and the only time span expressed is over "thousands of years."
There is some merit to the notion that the ancients had been travelling with subspace for a far shorter duration. The passage implies that perhaps they had met the shivans only after several months of exterminating and subduing other species. But this is unclear. Another just as plausible interpretation, is that the ancients were so relatively superior to the others that it only required months to eliminate a couple species. Obviously technological advancement wouldn't progress that much given the ease of their victories.
The fourth ancient monologue bolsters this second interpretation considerably.:
There are a few of us left. We know we will soon be gone. And so we can see our fate as others will see it. There will be little legacy. No great expressions of what we once were. Our technology, our achievements if ever they are seen again will spawn none of the awe that filled our conquests.
We know our fate. We are being eliminated. When we travelled subspace the cosmic destroyers took note.
When we conquered and colonised in galaxies where we had no place the destruction and the anguish and the loss were the clarion call of our doom. And so the destroyers came for us
What is remarkable about this passage is the admission that the ancients had expanded beyond their galaxy and had conquered and colonized in other galaxies. It seems reasonable that such an enterprise would have taken at least many centuries, if not thousands of years. The ancients would have to explore all the systems in their galaxy until they would find a jumpnode to another galaxy, or construct various knossos portals, then they would have to conquer over their enemies which would have taken considerable amount of time. I don't think they would have eliminated everyone in just a couple months. Then they would have to find suitable places, gather resources, construct whatever and reproduce and colonize not just in one other galaxy but for as far as we know it could have been dozens of galaxies. It is indeed difficult to agree with the notion that the ancients had been travelling amongst the stars only as long as the GTA or PVN.
IIRC, extrasolar subspace jumps are impossible. Subspace requires large gravity wells - that doesn't exist out there in open space between systems. There's nothing of interest there anyway. Why would ANYONE want to travel there?
As far as we know, that is correct, at least according to the technological limitations of vasudans and terrans. There is no evidence that the shivans or the anicents are also as limited.
I agree with you that large gravity wells don't exist out there in open space between systems, naturally. Perhaps the shivans or the ancients could create an artificial gravity well? Conversely: if you were an ancient, if it is true that subspace travel is impossible in extrasolar space, then wouldn't you or some of you go there to flee the shivans? Perhaps the lucifer fleet had been mopping up the remnants, hence their unexplained appearance in Ross 128 and Ikeya, etc.
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IIRC, 1kt is 10 hitpoints in FS. Imagine carrying a Helios in an FPS...
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Doesn't a helios have an explosion radius of 270 meters? I'm pretty sure that you wouldn't even have to move. :nod:
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The problem with these high "kiloton" counts is that you get no appreciation for the kinetic energy that a 1kt hit would impart on a fighter going at 65 m/s... unless FS fighters are incredibly massive.
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Well with the air, the explosion would prolly be even bigger in atmosphere, right?
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The problem with these high "kiloton" counts is that you get no appreciation for the kinetic energy that a 1kt hit would impart on a fighter going at 65 m/s... unless FS fighters are incredibly massive.
We know they aren't, because the game provides measurements for fightercraft.
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As in "mass", eg, weight.
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Necro'd.
What are you talking about. All of the fs fighters are pretty massive. They're in the least a lot beefier than the fighters here on planet earth. Also, shields as weak as they are help out a lot. Especially with shockwaves from bombs. The only time you really get killed by a bomb is when it hits you just right. Most of the other times it's diruption of control with little or massive shield damage from a bomb.
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:necro:
Seriously. Ah, well. I'm off to make my third thread in FSGD..
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Resurrecting this one doesn't seem to serve any real purpose. Lox0r'd.