Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: General Battuta on January 04, 2008, 10:37:47 am
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I can't say Petrarch's observers were very reliable.
I, for one, was burning as hard as I could for the Vega node and got roastedanyway my first time. I can only imagine the heroic things those observers must have detected Alpha 1 broadcasting.
Seriously, even if you do stay behind and try to defend some transports, there's no way they're going to make it. I wonder if this is another testament to the inhuman 'grunt effect' of the Freespace story -- you can't really do much to effect anything in the end. The Shivans and all the events they trigger are just unstoppable.
The one time I did manage to feel like I died heroically was when one of the transports in the convoy got disabled. I parked my Perseus behind it and started ramming it towards the node, and stubbornly continued right up until the shockwave annihilated us both.
What could you possibly do to deserve Petrarch's praise? Empty the warheads from your Trebuchets, transfer kittens and small children from an Argo into the now-emptied missiles, and fire them into the subspace vortex of another vessel fleeing through the node?
Any other ideas on exactly how to maximize your heroism in the final minutes of 'Apocalypse'?
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Disable the Cain and don't destory it.
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I parked my Persus behind it and started ramming it towards the node
A bit off-topic. From a Finnish point of view, I'm currently rofling at that typo. :lol:
But otherwise, that did actually sound heroic.
Edit: Oh, piss eggs. Now you fixed it. It isn't funny anymore. :(
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I'm aware of the bug with the disabled cruisers (earned someone the 'Savior of Capella' title, didn't it?)
Perhaps the Shivans have highly developed loyalty to each other, and they weren't willing to sacrifice the Cain's crew, so they delayed the supernova! (Yeah, okay, that's not to be taken as serious speculation.)
The metagame explanation for Petrarch's words, of course, is that they want the player to feel okay about dying -- and I think many people actually prefer that ending. (Confirm?)
However, from an in-game point of view, I wonder if the GTVA needed a few propaganda victories to cling to after the catastrophe. Alpha 1 was a convenient hero. It would be an interesting point of view to examine in a fanfic or campaign. I wonder of Petrarch made the decision himself, or if he was pressured from higher-up to make his favorite pilot (and probably friend) into a saint.
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ORIGINAL END TRANSMISSION:
Alpha1: Oh God! F**! Sh**! Blasted shivans. I'm not gonna make it to the node in time!
Transport1: You can't leave us behind!
Alpha1: F*** you! You're dead anyway. Why the heck is this thing so sloooo..-----
TRANSMISSION MADE PUBLIC BY THE GTVA:
Alpha1: Die you foul shivans! You're not gonna harm these refugees while I'm alive!
Transport1: Leave, run for the node! You cannot help us anymore! Save yourself!
Alpha1: Never! I shall fight to the end! The righteous goverment of the GTVA and it's armed forces will protect you with their lives if need be!..also, buy Coca Cola!
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Don't know, I died along with the rest of the pack always when I was a kid, but when I grew up, I always made the jump, and left the rest of the slow transports to fend for themselves in the supernova.
Fact is, there's nothing to be done. The **** is exploding, and you either make it or you don't. It's better to make it, maybe you'll matter in another skirmish down the line, Shivan or otherwise. If you don't, that's it for you.
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I actually felt quite heroic when i heard that ending...if i'm dead, it doesen't matter what i did to die then, right?
:lol:
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I'm aware of the bug with the disabled cruisers (earned someone the 'Savior of Capella' title, didn't it?)
That title was given to Grey Wolf in This Thread. (http://"http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,450.0.html")
I almost wish I had a title. (Flaming Noob?)
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Flaming Noob? Aren't noob titles supposed to star with a P?
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Phlaming Noob?
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there we go.
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Flaming Noob? Aren't noob titles supposed to star with a P?
Not always. Vasudan Commander's original title before he whined about it was 'The Biggest Noob on HLP... and Proud of it!' Besides, it was just a random thought at any rate.
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i thought it was because he wanted it, not cause an admin put it there.
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I don't dare request a title. If I do, the admins will slap me with something deliciously ironic and funny to everyone but me.
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I always felt like I was fight a lousing war, and that I was going to die anyways so it did not matter. Sorta like the one Im in now, doing my best, but no matter what I do people are going to keep dieing. It sorta seems pointless, but it has to be done, and you get retarded orders.
However, I maybe biased
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I can't say Petrarch's observers were very reliable.
Nor, for that matter, did they necessarily remain at their posts as ordered.
What better way to cover your own ass than to make up a tale of heroism and bravery of such magnitude that no one would ever dare dispute it. :p
It is ironic that the one time that Alpha 1 can't do ****, he gets praise for being an extraordinary pilot.
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I don't dare request a title. If I do, the admins will slap me with something deliciously ironic and funny to everyone but me.
Like mine?
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Hoooooooo, someone needs to come in here and push a few buttons.
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Actually I'm just going to tell people to get back on topic.
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There's a few important things to note here.
First, you don't have to save ANY ships to win the mission. You can just jet right to the node and pop out of there, and nobody will say a word. Second, the mission is set up very specifically, to force a choice on the part of the player- you can either be close to the node and escape, or you can devote yourself to defending the transports. If you constantly try to protect the transports instead of making a run for it to save your own hide, you'll be 30 kicks away from the node when the sun goes BOOM.
Now, the first time you play that mission, you have no idea that Capella is going to go supernova, so you focus on doing your job- defending the transports, which is a death sentence for you when the star goes boom. Even dis-regarding the nova, it's a heroic thing to do, considering that the odds against you are incredible, (I was sick and tired of bombers by the end of that mission, oh, man,) and that you're not required to stick around- the second and third convoys have their own (meager) fighter escort, after all.
The point is, if you don't emerge from the Vega node, Command knows why you were too far away to make a run for it- you were busy doing your job defending civilians, and they give you props for it. They wouldn't bat an eye at you running like mad and telling the transports to stuff it when the star goes nova- there's nothing you can do to save them, nothing, and there's no reason you shouldn't try to save yourself. The reason you were too far away from the node at all was because you were doing your job, defending civilians- and that's worthy of commendation. (Note that command didn't actually have any observers in the system, aside from the last ship to jump out that saw you still hanging back, fending off attackers from the last convoy.)
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That's an excellent set of points, Demetrious. Thank you.
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There's just one thing: GTVA Command had no idea the supernova would occur, and there is no way Alpha 1 could have known. Rushing to the node to save one's skin is not a decision you can make without knowledge of the supernova. If you're out five klicks from the node, fighting Dragons, there's no way you'll get there in time. The decision is essentially made for you. You cannot have made the right decision without being informed of the consequences, right? It was not a decision to sacrifice one's life so that others might keep theirs, it was a decision to use your superb piloting skills to save a couple of lives from Shivan fighters. Alpha 1 did not decide to die, he/she made a decision to protect civilians from enemy fighters. You protected civilians, just like you had been doing every mission of the campaign, and this time you ended up paying for it, through something you could never have foreseen.
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Planning to die as a result of your actions isn't a necessity for heroism. I doubt many posthumous Medal of Honor winners planned to earn it posthumously.
Given the overwhelming Shivan presence, the sensible thing to do would be to run as soon as the later convoys, with their fighter escort, jump in. If you stay and fight -- in your damaged vessel, fresh from the battle around the Bastion -- you're going above and beyond the call of duty. And then you die for it. The fact that you didn't know the supernova was coming doesn't cheapen the choice to stay and fight.
Thus the heroism.
Also, way more than a couple of lives. If it was just a couple people on those transports, Command would be all: "A civilian transport is down! Fred Tuttle and Judy S. Normans perished in the blast! End this massacre now, pilots!"
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True. Very true. But Command posthumously (we think, perhaps Alpha 1 got spirited away by the Shivans to their land of paradise, like all their "victims" are) commends you specifically for staying behind so that others will make it to the node, even when warned of the imminent catastrophe. That manifestly isn't true.
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I suppose that's just blatant spin.
Though he might have loaded a BtRL build and chosen to use Newtonian mechanics to reach the node more quickly, Alpha 1 maintained an arcade physics model, knowing that the AI of the civilian vessels was not sophisticated enough to maneuver under realistic conditions. His heroism sets an example for us all.
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I believe we have found a point where we can agree.
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It is possible to destroy all Shivan fighters and bombers present and still reach the node, even in an Ares. If you get them quickly, you'll have about a minute's head start before the supernova is triggered.
Even in this scenario, though, Alpha 1's job is to hang out next to the cruisers and transports and wait for more Shivans to arrive, not cower next to the node. No Terran or Vasudan fighter is capable of covering 8000 meters in 50 seconds, so in order to get there in time, you have to start running before Command's transmission.
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Heh... First time through, there was only a few enemy fighters left, and, since I knew I couldn't make it to the node, I just decided to blast as many Shivans as I could... the Transports that remained - their fate was decided anyways. Another time I did manage to do the same thing and almost make it to the node. Pretty much, if you know what's coming, you can pretty much get as many of the transports that have a chance to the node, then always keep close enough to the node to make it.
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Also, way more than a couple of lives. If it was just a couple people on those transports, Command would be all: "A civilian transport is down! Fred Tuttle and Judy S. Normans perished in the blast! End this massacre now, pilots!"
Though he might have loaded a BtRL build and chosen to use Newtonian mechanics to reach the node more quickly, Alpha 1 maintained an arcade physics model, knowing that the AI of the civilian vessels was not sophisticated enough to maneuver under realistic conditions. His heroism sets an example for us all.
:lol: Thank you for the lulz.
"...perished in the blast! End this massacre now, pilots!"
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True. Very true. But Command posthumously (we think, perhaps Alpha 1 got spirited away by the Shivans to their land of paradise, like all their "victims" are) commends you specifically for staying behind so that others will make it to the node, even when warned of the imminent catastrophe. That manifestly isn't true.
:yes:
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What was the farthest distance people made away from the node?
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Stinks how the Lemnos gets blasted although it was only about 1.5 k from the Vega node.
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Gotta love the coolness in the face of death though. "We are all about to die, so make sure you stay away from the explosion, alrighty?
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Actually if you know how to use the afterburner well enough the Horus might be able too.
Forgot about the Horus... but I doubt it. You need to be going an average of 160 m/s, and while the afterburn velocity is 170 m/s, the top cruising speed is only 110 m/s.
Of course, the Horus isn't available in that mission anyway. :)
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I know... just nitpicking :(
But you're not going to be exactly 8000m away, I'd say that it would be more of 8000 +/- 2000. So you have just as much chance of being totally screwed as gonna make it with 6 seconds left.
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Interplay has the following tip (sort of; I'm drumming it up from memory) on how to escape the supernova:
"At the eleven-minute mark, fly towards the node and stay inside there. Wait about sixty seconds, then warp out. Congratulations! You have completed main FreeSpace 2 campaign"
Here's a tip for cheaters to get most of the ships out without disabling the Cains:
"Auto-target hostiles, then press and hold ~ + k." ;)
I've never tried disabling Cains...because the thought of doing so never occurred to me.
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Must be someone pretty damn important on those Cains for the Shivans to hold the supernova for them.
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What if you let the Cains through? Has anyone ever tried that?
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I took a quick look of the mission in Notepad, and:
1) The cruisers do not have a departure cue,
$Name: Bane ;! Object #45
$Class: SC Cain
$Team: Hostile
$Location: -6139.924805, -0.000154, -18636.003906
$Orientation:
0.997925, 0.000000, -0.064384,
-0.000590, 0.999958, -0.009150,
0.064381, 0.009169, 0.997883
$IFF: IFF 1
$AI Behavior: None
$AI Goals: ( goals ( ai-waypoints "Waypoint path 7" 50 ) )
$Cargo 1: XSTR("Nothing", -1)
+Initial Velocity: 100
+Initial Hull: 100
+Initial Shields: 100
+Subsystem: Pilot
+Subsystem: turret01
+Subsystem: turret02
+Subsystem: turret03
+Subsystem: turret04
+Subsystem: turret05
+Subsystem: turret06
+Subsystem: turret07
+Subsystem: turret08
+Subsystem: turret09
$Arrival Location: Hyperspace
$Arrival Cue: ( is-destroyed-delay 15 "Thanatos" )
$Departure Location: Hyperspace
$Departure Cue: ( false )
$Determination: 10
+Flags: ( "no-shields" )+Respawn priority: 0
$Name: Melchom ;! Object #51
$Class: SC Cain
$Team: Hostile
$Location: -6221.718750, 0.000082, -17867.998047
$Orientation:
0.996724, 0.000000, -0.080878,
-0.000795, 0.999952, -0.009793,
0.080874, 0.009826, 0.996676
$IFF: IFF 1
$AI Behavior: None
$AI Goals: ( goals ( ai-waypoints "Waypoint path 8" 50 ) )
$Cargo 1: XSTR("Nothing", -1)
+Initial Velocity: 100
+Initial Hull: 100
+Initial Shields: 100
+Subsystem: Pilot
+Subsystem: turret01
+Subsystem: turret02
+Subsystem: turret03
+Subsystem: turret04
+Subsystem: turret05
+Subsystem: turret06
+Subsystem: turret07
+Subsystem: turret08
+Subsystem: turret09
$Arrival Location: Hyperspace
$Arrival Cue: ( is-destroyed-delay 15 "Thanatos" )
$Departure Location: Hyperspace
$Departure Cue: ( false )
$Determination: 10
+Flags: ( "no-shields" )+Respawn priority: 0
2) The supernova only happens if Libra wing has been in the mission, and Libra wing warps in when either the Bane or the Melchom are destroyed.
$Name: Libra
$Waves: 2
$Wave Threshold: 0
$Special Ship: 0 ;! Libra 1
$Arrival Location: Hyperspace
$Arrival Cue: ( or
( is-destroyed-delay 5 "Bane" )
( is-destroyed-delay 5 "Melchom" )
)
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The colossus should have warped out when it could have. All i know is that it would be way more effective for the colossus to have kept a low profile, and only show up at the node in the last mission defending the convoys. It would have been a much less bloodier convoy then :nod:
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There's just one thing: GTVA Command had no idea the supernova would occur, and there is no way Alpha 1 could have known. Rushing to the node to save one's skin is not a decision you can make without knowledge of the supernova.
The first time I played that mission I was so banged up after 3 minutes that I had to orbit around the GTCv and simply order wingmen and throw Trebs around.
I was in a Perseus, so I had no problem reaching the node when s*** hit the fan.
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(http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/1726/bahbr3.png)
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This is what really happens.
Command: Capella has gone supernova...Godspeed pilots!
A1: That is so ****ing weak command!
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This is what really happens.
Command: Capella has gone supernova...Godspeed pilots!
A1: That is so ****ing weak command!
I seem to note that "Command" is the guy you see when you run your mouse over Options in the Aquitaine Main Menu. By the time of the supernova, the Aquitaine was ALREADY in Vega (, a [long x 21 126] time ago).
I think we can interpret this to mean that the most important personnel were evacuated first, followed by the civilians. This is SO contradictory to "evacuate all non-essential personnel first", which was what happened in The Sixth Wonder, Argonautica and Dunkerque.
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I never assumed the guy in the menu screen was terran command...it could of been just another african guy.
and do you expect :v: to change the title screen for every mission? that seems like a superficial change to me
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I never assumed the guy in the menu screen was terran command...it could of been just another african guy.
and do you expect :v: to change the title screen for every mission? that seems like a superficial change to me
Eh? No no no, I don't mean that. Of course it would be redundant to change the menu for every mission. I'm just implying that Command already left Capella before the civilians did.
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How about revision?
The guy who is also referred to as "command" in game even though he's just a relay officer: Capella has gone supernova...Godspeed pilots!
A1: That is so ****ing weak command!
Damn pick apart everything. Command is in every system from what everybody can tell. Otherwise you don't get orders. No one knows who that guy is, except that he relays orders from officers to you in the least. You might as well call him command because every other pilot in the game who has a problem says "command, try not shooting those beams in our way". Remind you of the mission with the actium and the lysander? That guy actively gets called command every single time. He's just a relay officer, i'm pretty sure when pilots have a problem and blast out for commands help and decisions they'll probably get some other old relay officer or whatever that guy is who relays the orders and mission peramaters to pilots from command.
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Command was apparently on 3rd Fleet HQ in Dunkerque.
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I seem to note that "Command" is the guy you see when you run your mouse over Options in the Aquitaine Main Menu. By the time of the supernova, the Aquitaine was ALREADY in Vega (, a [long x 21 126] time ago).
I think we can interpret this to mean that the most important personnel were evacuated first, followed by the civilians. This is SO contradictory to "evacuate all non-essential personnel first", which was what happened in The Sixth Wonder, Argonautica and Dunkerque.
It's a decision that makes sense. The GTVA didn't know what was happening with Capella, though they probably had a damn bad feeling which is why they were doing the evacuation with such haste. In the event that any ships got through the blockade, they could save more lives by preventing destruction in other systems and coming up with good plans, rather than having a motley collection of ships and vast gaps in the chain of command.
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I seem to note that "Command" is the guy you see when you run your mouse over Options in the Aquitaine Main Menu. By the time of the supernova, the Aquitaine was ALREADY in Vega (, a [long x 21 126] time ago).
I think we can interpret this to mean that the most important personnel were evacuated first, followed by the civilians. This is SO contradictory to "evacuate all non-essential personnel first", which was what happened in The Sixth Wonder, Argonautica and Dunkerque.
It's a decision that makes sense. The GTVA didn't know what was happening with Capella, though they probably had a damn bad feeling which is why they were doing the evacuation with such haste. In the event that any ships got through the blockade, they could save more lives by preventing destruction in other systems and coming up with good plans, rather than having a motley collection of ships and vast gaps in the chain of command.
Hmm...that does make sense now. If there were gaps in Command, then the result would make the situation in Derelict look more like vandalised toilet paper.