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General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Agent_Koopa on January 09, 2008, 10:52:22 pm

Title: "Aftermath of Aftermath of Capella", or "Nova and Again"
Post by: Agent_Koopa on January 09, 2008, 10:52:22 pm
As you may or may not recall, there were two threads regarding the well-known Capella incident. Simultaneously, they degenerated into flamewars between TrashMan and karajorma, and were eventually locked by the latter. However, there are still some questions yet to be answered (namely, mine). The final moments of the two locked threads were based on a conflict between the "Capella was an accident and there was no supernode" school of thought and the "WTF are you talking about" school of thought. In my most expert and esteemed opinion, the arguments for both sides were as follows:

Accident theory/No Supernode
The Shivans blow up Capella purely by accident, as evident from the obliteration of some Sathanases and of the rest of the Shivan forces.
Admiral Petrarch may even have been mistaken when he was talking about a supernode, as he was speculating.
The Shivans are just as fallible as humans are, so they may have screwed up.

Other side
The Shivans would be unlikely to screw up at the game's conclusion for no reason at all.
Admiral Petrarch was delivering the game's epilogue, and his words were therefore those of the developers giving us hints.


I may have missed out on some points, but that is unimportant. What matters is that one side believes that Capella was an accident, because Shivans died in the blast. The other believes Capella was on purpose, because there is no reason for Petrarch, delivering the epilogue to be wrong, and Sathanases escaped the supernova via subspace. These, apparently, are completely irreconcilable positions.

Why can't it be both ways?

Petrarch was closing the game. The supernode is the only canon explanation for the destruction of Capella. It's all we have. Why would they lie to us in the epilogue? Equally important, if they were creating a supernode to go home, how could they fail so spectacularly, wiping out many of their own ships? There is an explanation that reconciles this contradiction, but bear with me for a moment. It is important to recall that the Shivans had an entire armada of specially-built node-constructor ships. This is tried-and-tested technology. There is only one way to explain their failure. Remember that the Shivans have such a huge impact on us because of their amazing technology, including the ability to travel through unstable jump nodes. How unlikely is it that the Shivans messed up their own tech all by themselves, at the game's conclusion, no less! How anticlimactic would it be if the terrifying Shivans simply had their machines blow up in their faces? There must have been an outside reason for the spectacular malfunction. That reason was the GTVA.

Throughout the Second Shivan Incursion, the GTVA fights the Shivans tooth and nail. Arrogant, incredibly so, but not without reason. The Shivans win only through unstoppable numbers and pure, brute force. Heavy casualties are sustained by the Shivans, up to and including a Sathanas juggernaut. Only the arrival of multiple juggernauts is enough to break through GTVA defenses and secure a system. There is no doubt that the GTVA was at least a thorn in the Shivan side. Remember, the GTVA is the only possible factor that could have affected the Shivans. No other races other than Terrans and Vasudans are known to exist. Assuming :v: wasn't going to pull something out directly out of its rectum for FS3, only the GTVA could have done it. The GTVA must have done something right. In response to my original post, ngtm1r suggested that it could have been the destruction of Shivan transports by the GTVA in Their Finest Hour. This is possible, but when considered from a story perspective, is extremely unlikely. The destruction of a few transports in the same mission as the death of the Colossus was what caused the subspace wave to fail? What about something far more visibly important: the first Sathanas? Here, we have a reason for the supernova. A compelling one. The only GTVA victory in the entire Second Shivan Incursion, a campaign marked by one success, followed by crushing futility. Perhaps the only success was enough. One nodebuilder ship, taken out of the equation, may have been enough to destabilize the subspace wave, allowing the star to go supernova and only a few ships to escape.

Think about it. We can take Petrarch as reliable, so the Shivans built a supernode. The Shivans wiped out part of their fleet, presumably in the attempt to go home, so there must have been some sort of failure. The one factor affecting Shivan operations that we know of is the GTVA. The one GTVA success happens to have been the destruction of a Shivan nodebuilder. This timeline makes perfect sense in terms of story. There's no anticlimax, and every event has a cause. What other conclusion can be drawn?



Title: Re: "Aftermath of Aftermath of Capella", or "Nova and Again"
Post by: haloboy100 on January 09, 2008, 11:19:07 pm
i'm not even gonna take part in this debate. Interesting read though.
Title: Re: "Aftermath of Aftermath of Capella", or "Nova and Again"
Post by: Flipside on January 09, 2008, 11:34:16 pm
Well, as long as Londo and J'Kar don't end up at each others' throats again.... :p
Title: Re: "Aftermath of Aftermath of Capella", or "Nova and Again"
Post by: karajorma on January 10, 2008, 04:50:05 am
Londo and G'Kar were the best thing in B5 I'll point out. :p
Title: Re: "Aftermath of Aftermath of Capella", or "Nova and Again"
Post by: General Battuta on January 10, 2008, 08:26:42 am
I've always thought it interesting that nodes can only be created at points of relatively 'flat' spacetime, i.e. areas where there is little local gravity.

These might include Lagrange points. Shouldn't there be a Lagrange point of sorts at the center of the system's star -- in much the same way there'd be no gravity at the exact center of the Earth? Maybe the hearts of all suns contain a supernode.

I haven't thought this through at all, however.
Title: Re: "Aftermath of Aftermath of Capella", or "Nova and Again"
Post by: Flipside on January 10, 2008, 08:34:24 am
Well, the thing about a 'point' is that it has no dimensions, so there is theoretically a point of absolute zero gravity at the centre of a Star, however, in reality, that actual point is infinitely small, at least if I remember my physics correctly.....

Edit:

Londo and G'Kar were the best thing in B5 I'll point out. :p

I agree actually, I thought they were both great characters, such a pity the Actor who played G'Kar died, I'd have love to have seen more of that particular story.
Title: Re: "Aftermath of Aftermath of Capella", or "Nova and Again"
Post by: karajorma on January 10, 2008, 09:02:30 am
Well, the thing about a 'point' is that it has no dimensions, so there is theoretically a point of absolute zero gravity at the centre of a Star, however, in reality, that actual point is infinitely small, at least if I remember my physics correctly.....

Not true actually. A hollow sphere has no net gravitational attraction all the way through. Hell ANY sphere hollow or not is like that.

At the centre it's fairly obvious that all the forces cancel out. What's less obvious is that they cancel out everywhere else too. At any point in the sphere other than the centre the gravitational attraction of the point "beneath" you is directly cancelled out by the much pull from the larger mass "above" you pulling you in the opposite direction.
Title: Re: "Aftermath of Aftermath of Capella", or "Nova and Again"
Post by: Marcus Vesper on January 10, 2008, 10:06:26 am
First off, the notion of a supernode is pure fan speculation and has absolutely no canon support behind if.  If you meant supernova though, then I'll agree with you, as that is indeed canonical.

Secondly, while you're certainly free to interpret the meaning of the ending cutscene for yourself (I can't stop you if you like being wrong after all), it and the rest of the game are an extended lesson on the dangers of hubris.  Our arrogance destroyed Capella.  Initially we had sound reasons for leaving the Knossos open, as we wanted to reproduce the technology ourselves.  But afterwards?  The illusion of our superiority cost us an entire system and thousands upon thousands of lives, something we could have easily prevented by collapsing the node in Gamma Draconis when we had the chance.  Our arrogance was our downfall.

The ending of Freespace was a Pyhrric victory.  The ending of Freespace 2 was full out cut your losses and run ignominious retreat.  We thought we could best the destroyers, only to have our weakness thrust in our faces by the might of their armada.  The only thing we did right during the Capella campaign was to evacuate as many civilians as we could and to cut off the system itself.  But while we can rightly take pride in the heroism of those who laid their lives on the line in doing so, it's important to understand that our entire desperate gambit succeeded only because the Shivans let us do it.  We're only alive because they didn't kill us.  There wasn't any stopping the Sathanas fleet, had they engaged us rather then congregating around the star the entire GTVA might have fallen.  I say might only because there's the possibility of collapsing nodes further into GTVA space.

With that said, how can anyone honestly interpret the ending of the game in a manner that grants us success beyond our mere survival?  I don't know about you, but I just watched an unstoppable cosmic force that we arrogantly presumed ourselves superior to exercise their will on the cosmos, and it was all we could do just to get out of the way.  Maybe some of us just haven't learned the lesson FS2 teaches?

Hubris is a dangerous thing.
Title: Re: "Aftermath of Aftermath of Capella", or "Nova and Again"
Post by: karajorma on January 10, 2008, 10:33:51 am
First off, the notion of a supernode is pure fan speculation and has absolutely no canon support behind if.  If you meant supernova though, then I'll agree with you, as that is indeed canonical.

Well it's not pure fan speculation. Petrarch speculates on it too. :D That said he also says

Quote
"There are more things in Heaven and Earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

Wish more people would pay attention to that. :D
Title: Re: "Aftermath of Aftermath of Capella", or "Nova and Again"
Post by: TrashMan on January 10, 2008, 10:39:10 am
Just to give you a small correction - I didn't say that the shivans weren't trying to make a supernode.
I said we don't know what they tried to do. Maybe a supernode, maybe they jut wanted to make a nove, maybe something else. Supernoe is as much of a speculation as anything else.

As for the "it shouldn't have blown theory" - the blame doesn't have to fall only on the shivans. What I said was:
- maybe the shivans made a mistake and the star blew up (it wasn't their plan to blow it up)
- maybe the shivans made a mistake and the star blew up too early (it WAS their plan to blow it up)
- maybe the GTVA caused the fatal mistake ( destroyed a transport with vital resources, destroyed the comm nodes, the Sath or something else)
- maybe it wasn't really the shivans fault but it was just a fluke of nature. Unpredictable fluctuation or something and thing got out of control
Title: Re: "Aftermath of Aftermath of Capella", or "Nova and Again"
Post by: ShadowGorrath on January 10, 2008, 01:39:46 pm
The supernova may be intended , or maybe it wasn't ( I personally think it wasn't intended ) . Eitherway - it happened too early . The Shivans lost 1 juggernaut , another one was interrupted ( while destroying the Colossus ) , so the remaining Sathanas' had to compensate for the 2 missing juggernauts . Half of them lost all their power ( turned black and didn't jump out in the cutscene , with the other Shivan ships destroyed also ) . But since at least half of them jumped out , I guess they succeeded in making of what I think was a super-node . Just my opinion .

P.S. There is no canon information about what happened there , so don't whine about something "not being proven by canon" . I don't think there'd be a topic here about this if there was enough canon information for us not to speculate . And that's what we're doing here - speculating . Giving out our opinions . So please don't start an opinion-war between two or three people here , because it's annoying , results in a lock , and who knows - maybe some good theory get's missed .
Title: Re: "Aftermath of Aftermath of Capella", or "Nova and Again"
Post by: karajorma on January 10, 2008, 02:48:59 pm
P.S. There is no canon information about what happened there , so don't whine about something "not being proven by canon" . I don't think there'd be a topic here about this if there was enough canon information for us not to speculate

Saying that's what starts the wars most often actually. :p
Title: Re: "Aftermath of Aftermath of Capella", or "Nova and Again"
Post by: Marcus Vesper on January 10, 2008, 03:39:10 pm
First off, the notion of a supernode is pure fan speculation and has absolutely no canon support behind if.  If you meant supernova though, then I'll agree with you, as that is indeed canonical.

Well it's not pure fan speculation. Petrarch speculates on it too. :D That said he also says

Quote
"There are more things in Heaven and Earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

Wish more people would pay attention to that. :D
Node?  Yes.  Supernode?  No, not remotely.  Canonically there's no such thing as a supernode.  I'd agree with you if you're stating that they used the dying star to go somewhere, but I'm not going to give blanket credence to the whole supernode idea in the process.  That said, I don't inherently find it repugnant and can see it being a possible valid mechanic.  Just don't call it canon, where jumpnodes are jumpnodes, just differing by stability.  Besides, wasn't the original reason people bandied about the term "supernode" the idea that only the Sathanas juggernauts would have jump drives capable of utilizing it?  One would think that a supernode would be so exceptionally stable that anyone could use it, not the other way around.  So if the reason the other elements of the Shivan fleet didn't jump out with the Sathanas was because they couldn't use that node, wouldn't that suggest extraordinary instability instead?  Seems more plausible to me anyways.

Eitherway - it happened too early . The Shivans lost 1 juggernaut , another one was interrupted ( while destroying the Colossus ) , so the remaining Sathanas' had to compensate for the 2 missing juggernauts . Half of them lost all their power ( turned black and didn't jump out in the cutscene , with the other Shivan ships destroyed also ) .
The words "I think" before "it happened too early" would have made more sense, given that you said "Just my opinion" at the end of the paragraph. (Yay nitpicking!)  That aside, I have a factual issue with that theory: The cutscene doesn't show half the Sathanas ships powering down and not jumping out, as it doesn't show all the Sathanas ships in the first place.  I'll watch it again, but I don't think it was proportionally half of those on display that were destroyed either.  Canonically, they lost "some" ships.  That doesn't change the possible validity of your argument of course, but tossing about words like "lost half the fleet" might lend the position more strength then it actually is due.

I of course disagree with you entirely, but you already knew that.

[Edit because I just noticed something] Is the title of this thread inspired in any way by Rocky and Bullwinkle?  It really reminds me of the titles they would give when telling you to tune in next time; gave me a good chuckle just now. [/edit because I had noticed something]
Title: Re: "Aftermath of Aftermath of Capella", or "Nova and Again"
Post by: Agent_Koopa on January 10, 2008, 04:41:38 pm
It's a supernode to distinguish it from regular, naturally-occuring jump nodes, which are not large enough to allow ≥40 juggernauts through at one time, nor are they created by fleets of specially-constructed ships. Otherwise, a supernode would appear to be the exact same as a regular node. The terminology is only different to draw attention to that fact that the Shivans created it. That point of semantics out of the way, the supernode's stability has nothing to do with the supernova, as I theorized. The absence of a Sathanas juggernaut is what caused it. Only some of the Sathanases made it through the newly-formed node.

And yes, the GTVA was arrogant, TrashMan Vesper. They were arrogant and they lost. The juggernaut fleet, and the swarm of Shivan ships was far too much to bear for an already weary allied force. But you can't deny that the GTVA inflicted heavy casualties, and, most importantly, one Sathanas juggernaut. No matter how badly the war went, the GTVA still brought down one juggernaut. I'm not trying to say that the GTVA weren't arrogant, and I'm not trying to say they didn't get their butts kicked. The one major victory against the Shivans was the destruction of the Sathanas. And that is all that is needed.

I stress that Petrarch's theory is very likely correct. He admits that he doesn't know for sure, but this is the only canon information regarding the supernova that we have. If FS3 were to have followed a regular, sane plotline, then this makes sense. It is the only bit of info we have. FS3 would have built on this. The main thing going for my theory is that it makes sense in terms of plotline. Things all happen for an in-game reason.

Also, yes, I was going for a Rocky & Bullwinkle title, and it makes me very happy someone laughed. Took me a while to come up with a bad pun on "nova".
Title: Re: "Aftermath of Aftermath of Capella", or "Nova and Again"
Post by: Flipside on January 10, 2008, 04:50:07 pm
Strictly speaking, all we see is a load of Saths jump and the star explode, anything beyond that is based on Petrarchs' conjecture, which may or may not be factual, there's no real evidence for either a Node or a Supernode, simply that at least some of the Saths jumped somewhere. It's entirely possible that destroying the star had nothing whatsoever to do with making any kind of node whatsoever, if you go purely by the evidence of the cutscene. The jump could have been anywhere, video evidence doesn't really provide a deciding weight to any particular theory.
Title: Re: "Aftermath of Aftermath of Capella", or "Nova and Again"
Post by: General Battuta on January 10, 2008, 06:05:11 pm
I like the supernode hypothesis.

Vesper, that was a good analysis about the lessons of hubris above. That was the same thing I got from the game.

You're wrong on one minor point, though -- there was a small triumph: the recovery of the Knossos technology and the return to Earth.

I don't think it's a thematic coincidence that there is one homecoming (of mankind to Earth) at the end of FS2, and another speculated upon: that of the Shivans to wherever they belong.

It's just my opinion, however.
Title: Re: "Aftermath of Aftermath of Capella", or "Nova and Again"
Post by: MP-Ryan on January 10, 2008, 07:21:13 pm
Londo and G'Kar were the best thing in B5 I'll point out. :p

Delenn was hot, does that count for nothing? =)
Title: Re: "Aftermath of Aftermath of Capella", or "Nova and Again"
Post by: Agent_Koopa on January 10, 2008, 08:14:33 pm
It's true we don't know what the Shivans are doing. But ask yourself; why would the developers lie to us? It's the only explanation with a basis in canon, namely Petrarch's epilogue. It's not just Petrarch rambling, it's the epilogue to the entire game. Please remember that there was going to be an FS3, had FS2 done better financially. :v: had ideas of what the Shivans were doing. Remember our only hint: that the Shivans are a symptom of something big. This would have been developed further in FS3. Don't think about what happened in one ambiguous cutscene, think instead about the direction the story would have taken. Petrarch's speculation is evidence in itself. Think about it, Volition knew where they were going, would they have Petrarch go off on a completely unrelated tangent in the epilogue?

Title: Re: "Aftermath of Aftermath of Capella", or "Nova and Again"
Post by: WMCoolmon on January 10, 2008, 11:56:33 pm
It's true we don't know what the Shivans are doing. But ask yourself; why would the developers lie to us? It's the only explanation with a basis in canon, namely Petrarch's epilogue. It's not just Petrarch rambling, it's the epilogue to the entire game. Please remember that there was going to be an FS3, had FS2 done better financially. :v: had ideas of what the Shivans were doing. Remember our only hint: that the Shivans are a symptom of something big. This would have been developed further in FS3. Don't think about what happened in one ambiguous cutscene, think instead about the direction the story would have taken. Petrarch's speculation is evidence in itself. Think about it, Volition knew where they were going, would they have Petrarch go off on a completely unrelated tangent in the epilogue?

:V: could have changed it's mind, and even if it didn't, 'something big' is about as vague as you can get besides 'something'. 'Big' could be anything from a theme to an alien race to an emotion to astronomical phenomena.

As for Petrarch: sure they could have. It's not completely unrelated anyway, as someone pointed out, it's thematically related to the Knossos. It ends Freespace 2 on a happier note, rather than just a rehash of "No one knows how or why...". The ending of Freespace 1 is more or less unrelated to the plot of Freespace 2. Alpha 1 talks about species being exterminated, and nobody is in serious danger of being exterminated in FS2. The Shivans don't open jump nodes; the Ancients portal does. Maybe Alpha 1's comments would have some relevance to Freespace 3, but until then, all you can say is that Alpha 1 more or less went off on a "random tangent" that was thematic to Freespace 1, but not to Freespace 2.
Title: Re: "Aftermath of Aftermath of Capella", or "Nova and Again"
Post by: karajorma on January 11, 2008, 02:22:46 am
Yep. While I tend to favour the explanation Petrach gives as the likely direction :v: would have picked saying that it must be their explanation is silly.

If you use that logic then you can argue that the GTVA never will figure out how to use the Knossos technology since it's based on Ancient technology and the FS1 ending quite clearly says that the Shivans are the ones who will reopen Sol's jump node.
Title: Re: "Aftermath of Aftermath of Capella", or "Nova and Again"
Post by: TrashMan on January 11, 2008, 05:34:35 am
It's true we don't know what the Shivans are doing. But ask yourself; why would the developers lie to us? It's the only explanation with a basis in canon, namely Petrarch's epilogue. It's not just Petrarch rambling, it's the epilogue to the entire game. Please remember that there was going to be an FS3, had FS2 done better financially. :v: had ideas of what the Shivans were doing. Remember our only hint: that the Shivans are a symptom of something big. This would have been developed further in FS3. Don't think about what happened in one ambiguous cutscene, think instead about the direction the story would have taken. Petrarch's speculation is evidence in itself. Think about it, Volition knew where they were going, would they have Petrarch go off on a completely unrelated tangent in the epilogue?



Possibly that they would. to throw you off track. Or maybe coause it's poetic.

I mean, at the end of FS1 the pilot in the monolouge sez shivans can rebuild the jump node(s) to earth. Did we see them do that in FS2? Nope..
Title: Re: "Aftermath of Aftermath of Capella", or "Nova and Again"
Post by: Marcus Vesper on January 11, 2008, 12:06:00 pm
Vesper, that was a good analysis about the lessons of hubris above. That was the same thing I got from the game.

You're wrong on one minor point, though -- there was a small triumph: the recovery of the Knossos technology and the return to Earth.
No, I'm not wrong about that point, as you'll note I mentioned why they rationalized keeping the portal open originally.  It's just that the only bright part of Petrach's ending monologue didn't really have anything to do with the ending of the game, which was my focus.  We didn't discover the secrets of the Knossos moments before Capella was overrun, or lose the system in order to acquire that knowledge.

We already had all the information we deemed necessary to recreate the Knossos back when the first Sathanas was headed for Gamma Draconis, so while that is indeed a spot of good news, it had nothing to do with the events during the endgame.  If it wasn't for an overweening pride in our technology, we could have finished the job of destabilizing the portal to the nebula when simply demolishing the Knossos didn't do the trick, sparing us the "journey into hell" (as Petrach put it) entirely.

Thus there was no victory at all to be found in Capella.
Title: Re: "Aftermath of Aftermath of Capella", or "Nova and Again"
Post by: General Battuta on January 11, 2008, 12:18:42 pm
Yep, if you're talking about Capella in particular, definitely true.

That said, I think I agree with most of the decisions made throughout FS2. Given the information available, I think they were calculated risks, and the fact that they didn't pay off doesn't make them absolutely idiotic.
Title: Re: "Aftermath of Aftermath of Capella", or "Nova and Again"
Post by: Marcus Vesper on January 11, 2008, 12:33:03 pm
Yep, if you're talking about Capella in particular, definitely true.

That said, I think I agree with most of the decisions made throughout FS2. Given the information available, I think they were calculated risks, and the fact that they didn't pay off doesn't make them absolutely idiotic.
Up until the decision to risk re-entering the nebula just to capture Aken Bosch and explore uncharted jump nodes, I'd tend to agree with you.  That decision smacks of somebody high up pursuing the GTVI's interests ahead of the safety and security of the entire GTVA.

But then again, SOC missions are so darn cool that I forgive them entirely, ha ha.
Title: Re: "Aftermath of Aftermath of Capella", or "Nova and Again"
Post by: TrashMan on January 11, 2008, 01:56:30 pm
But then again, SOC missions are so darn cool that I forgive them entirely, ha ha.

LOL.. Indeed. That's the only way to judge a good government. WAS IT INTERESTING? What happened during your rule? 4% tax drop? booooring? Look at the guys before you - we fought a freaking interstellar war of epic proportions! you are lamO!  :lol:
Title: Re: "Aftermath of Aftermath of Capella", or "Nova and Again"
Post by: Agent_Koopa on February 02, 2008, 11:59:39 pm
Bahaha necro.

*ahem*

So, it seems that the "supernode" theory (note that supernode here means the creation of a new intersystem node through which the Sathanas fleet jumped) is not as widely accepted as I thought. This is interesting. It is also not the main reason I created this thread. I took it for granted that that was what the Shivans were doing.


So, that discussion is best saved for another topic. Let me revise my original post. IF it is accepted that the Shivans were creating a supernode, then do my conclusions follow? All Capella theories require some non-canonicity and speculation. How much speculation is needed for this theory?
Title: Re: "Aftermath of Aftermath of Capella", or "Nova and Again"
Post by: FreeSpaceFreak on February 03, 2008, 01:04:37 am
The Supernode theory, although not accepted by everyone, is the most likely, IMHO. I just can't figure out where the Saths would have gone without it. In 10 minutes (about the time the shockwave needs to get to the GDrax node), you can't withdraw 80 juggernauts. Not even the Shivans can do that; it's physically impossible.

Your original post makes a lot of sense. There is no canon evidence that denies it, and even Petrarch seems to point in that direction. And I don't think he was lying there, I do think :v: gave us some hints to the solution to the mystery.
Title: Re: "Aftermath of Aftermath of Capella", or "Nova and Again"
Post by: WMCoolmon on February 03, 2008, 02:57:46 am
I'd hate to think that the "great mystery" of Freespace 2 was actually solved roughly two minutes after it got started, by means of Petrarch slapping us in the face of it with all the subtlety of a burlap sack.
Title: Re: "Aftermath of Aftermath of Capella", or "Nova and Again"
Post by: FreeSpaceFreak on February 03, 2008, 04:56:48 am
Luckily, it's only a tiny part of the solution on which Admiral Petrarch speculates. The larger questions still remain: Where did the Shivans go? Why did they go there?? And... Will we ever see them again???
Title: Re: "Aftermath of Aftermath of Capella", or "Nova and Again"
Post by: terran_emperor on February 03, 2008, 08:09:01 am
I reckon the entire Supernode theory is a load of Horse Hockey!

I think the Sathanas fleet caused the Supernova, then made an intrasystem jump to subspace and waited there till the star had finished exploding - sort of like diving underwater to avoid tidalwaves.

I agree with the idea that the GTVA must have somehow butt f****d the shivans somehow...Destroyed ultra-vital cargo transports/Blown up the first Sathanas/pulled another away from it's post/Erased the E-Pegasai Node...whatever...one/some/all and/or other stuff caused the fleet to have to over compensate for the losses and something had to give...therefore some Sathanas got shut down.

My theory about the shivans is that they are testing us. \/

They are locked in an eternal struggle with an unseen enemy in another galaxy. Neither side is able to gain an advantage the war is deadlocked and has lasted several million years. In looking for a solution, Shivan stratagists hit upon a highly unorthodox idea - any race capable of defeating the Shivans would by definition be able to defeat their enemy. The only problem - such a race doesn't exist. The solution - go Darwinian the younger races on a Galactic scale until such a race emerges.

Basically the shivans are using Darwin's theory of Natural Selection on a Genocidal Scale. The unfit races are wiped out. Eventually a race will emerge capable of defeating them. The Shivans play a long game. The plan reads something like this:

Stage 1 - The shivans observe a race once it becomes subspace capable (Explains why Shivans didn't show up as soon as we discovered subspace)

Stage 2 - After an intermediate amount of time, the shivans launch an FS1 style offensive - a genocide wave. they devestate the fleets, then destroy the Homeworld(s), after which they goe back and take care of the survivors

Stage 3 - If the race Defeats Fleet from Stage 1 they then spend some more time watching during the subject race's rebuilding process

Stage 4 - Eventually, they attack Subject race again and see how the race fares against better warships. (The whole Rakshassa/Ravana business at the beginning of FS2) - This stage is a definate pass for the subject race

Stage 5 - When the Subject race beats Stage 4, The Shivans Send in a Radically stronger vessel (The Sathanas) and launch an attack in the style of Stage 2.

Stage 6 - If the Race survives stage 5, thay then launch what appears to be an all-out offensive with a fleet of Sathanas, but they then do something with real "WTF?!" value to see how the race reacts.

Stage 7-? cycles of rebuild then invade occur untill a race capable of defeating the shivans no-matter what stratagies or stunts they pull develops.

So basically what im saying is Capella was a giant reaction test.
My my reckoning, the Ancients didnt get past stage 2 and the GTVA may be the first in our area of the galaxy to get past to stage 6 - which i reckon we passed

My basis for all this is 2 things
one) the :v: quote that the shivans were only part of the bigger picture
Two) Every time we fight the shivans, our tech gains vast improvements

FS1 - Thanks to the Shivans we gain
1)Shields and anti-shield weaponary
2)Enhanced normal space tracking abilities
3)The ability to track ships into subspace (Via the Ancients)
4)Fighter size intersystem subspace drives
5)Beam Weapons(developed between games)

FS2 - We gain
1) Subspace Portal Tech (Again via the Ancients)
2) Shivan Comms Tech (ETAK)
3) Beginnings of Shivan Style Weapons (Kayser)

Not to mention the Hades or Sekmet which were shivan based, or the captured Dragons/Maras and others
Title: Re: "Aftermath of Aftermath of Capella", or "Nova and Again"
Post by: TrashMan on February 03, 2008, 08:24:08 am
Except a race capable of beating the shivan enemies will also be able to beat the shivans.

It's an equalent of a guy releasing a wild lion from the cage and trying to get it to eat another guy.
the lion might tear him trough peaces instead of going after the other guy...or it might go after him, but who's to say it won't return after it's done?
Title: Re: "Aftermath of Aftermath of Capella", or "Nova and Again"
Post by: terran_emperor on February 03, 2008, 08:56:20 am
Erm...TrashMan. That's my whole point. Because they are able to beat the Shivans they are able the Shivan's Enemy.

I like your analogy...So what if the guy who released the lion didn't mind being eaten, so long as the other guy died...
Title: Re: "Aftermath of Aftermath of Capella", or "Nova and Again"
Post by: TrashMan on February 03, 2008, 09:39:28 am
I'd say that would make the guy very stupid...VERY stupid indeed. :lol:
Title: Re: "Aftermath of Aftermath of Capella", or "Nova and Again"
Post by: Agent_Koopa on February 03, 2008, 05:53:45 pm
Erm... right. I won't springboard my theory in this topic into an additional alien race theory, I just want to know if my arguments are sound or not. There's no real way to tell what :v: was going to do, but are my arguments good guesses?
Title: Re: "Aftermath of Aftermath of Capella", or "Nova and Again"
Post by: Aardwolf on February 07, 2008, 03:19:44 pm
A Nova is not the same thing as a SuperNova!
Title: Re: "Aftermath of Aftermath of Capella", or "Nova and Again"
Post by: General Battuta on February 07, 2008, 03:51:47 pm
Indeed it is not.

And?
Title: Re: "Aftermath of Aftermath of Capella", or "Nova and Again"
Post by: Titan on February 07, 2008, 03:58:28 pm
I think the reason only some jumped was because they didn't want us to be able to completely evac. If they had all fled, we would have known something wasn't right.
Title: Re: "Aftermath of Aftermath of Capella", or "Nova and Again"
Post by: Jeff Vader on February 07, 2008, 04:04:56 pm
They already knew something was wrong. Petrarch was speculating the charging of a weapon of mass destruction never seen before. Possibly the smaller Shivan ships were merely being a nuisance in order to take as many Terrans and Vasudans with them as they could.
Title: Re: "Aftermath of Aftermath of Capella", or "Nova and Again"
Post by: terran_emperor on February 07, 2008, 04:31:22 pm
*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nova (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nova) - Nova

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwarf_nova (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwarf_nova) - Dwarf Nova

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supernova (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supernova) - Supernova
        *http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_Ia_supernova (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_Ia_supernova) - Type Ia
        *http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_Ib_and_Ic_supernovae (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_Ib_and_Ic_supernovae) Types Ib & Ic
        *http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_II_supernova (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_II_supernova) - Type II

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypernova (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypernova) - Hypernova

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luminous_Red_Nova (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luminous_Red_Nova) - Lumious Red Nova
Title: Re: "Aftermath of Aftermath of Capella", or "Nova and Again"
Post by: FreeSpaceFreak on February 08, 2008, 01:32:26 am
Possibly the smaller Shivan ships were merely being a nuisance in order to take as many Terrans and Vasudans with them as they could.
Possible... Or they didn't want any witnesses to survive... :nervous:
Title: Re: "Aftermath of Aftermath of Capella", or "Nova and Again"
Post by: Koth on February 08, 2008, 02:54:17 am
Or mabe to keep the GTVA from bothering the Sathanas Fleet while they were doing their Subspace stuff.
Title: Re: "Aftermath of Aftermath of Capella", or "Nova and Again"
Post by: Jeff Vader on February 08, 2008, 04:44:25 am
Possibly the smaller Shivan ships were merely being a nuisance in order to take as many Terrans and Vasudans with them as they could.
Possible... Or they didn't want any witnesses to survive... :nervous:
Then they weren't doing too good a job.
Title: Re: "Aftermath of Aftermath of Capella", or "Nova and Again"
Post by: WMCoolmon on February 08, 2008, 04:56:31 am
Possibly the smaller Shivan ships were merely being a nuisance in order to take as many Terrans and Vasudans with them as they could.
Possible... Or they didn't want any witnesses to survive... :nervous:

Now there's an interesting thought. I misread that as being about the supernova rather than the smaller ships. What if the point of the supernova was to simply block access to the GTVA without protracted war, or the risk of spies poking around? The GTVA clearly can't survive very well in the nebula, but the Shivans apparently can. It gives them a decisive 'home field advantage' in enemy-held territory.

It's doubtful whether the Shivans could survive in the supernova remnants either, but they could certainly survive there before the GTVA could, given present levels of tech. Also, it might be a more permanent solution to them than blowing up a node, because they can forsee just how many notes the GTVA could discover in the system if they improved their jump drives to take advantage of more unstable nodes.
Title: Re: "Aftermath of Aftermath of Capella", or "Nova and Again"
Post by: karajorma on February 09, 2008, 12:53:34 pm
It's doubtful whether the Shivans could survive in the supernova remnants either

I'm not too sure of that to be honest. real nebulae might be hot but the particle density tends to be really, really low (The particle density of a nebula is actually lower than that of the best vacuum we can make). I'd want to hear from an astronomer really but it might be that instead of being so hot ships instantly melt that the Capella nebula doesn't have enough energy to boil a kettle. :)
Title: Re: "Aftermath of Aftermath of Capella", or "Nova and Again"
Post by: Snail on February 09, 2008, 01:21:40 pm
I'm not too sure of that to be honest. real nebulae might be hot but the particle density tends to be really, really low (The particle density of a nebula is actually lower than that of the best vacuum we can make).

I've heard the absolute opposite of that sometime ago. But I'll assume that you're right.
Title: Re: "Aftermath of Aftermath of Capella", or "Nova and Again"
Post by: karajorma on February 10, 2008, 04:40:39 am
Even if we've made a lot of progress since I first heard that fact I'm not far wrong. :) At most a couple of orders of magnitude. Which at this scale might not even make the difference between an ultra high vacuum and an extremely high vacuum. :D