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General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: KappaWing on October 26, 2008, 11:04:46 am

Title: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: KappaWing on October 26, 2008, 11:04:46 am
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kardashev_scale

I found this scale to be very applicable to Freespace, and since the Shivans could be anywhere from just what we've seen to an infinite force with even larger and larger ships spanning the universe, I would be interested to know HLP's opinion on how great the Shivan civilization actually is. We know they can harness the energy of a star, so that places them at least at Kardashev II. But a galaxy? Multiple galaxies? How big do you think they are?

I will reveal my opinion later, although some of you who know me from way back when will already know what it is.

If you vote, then find later discussion to be convincing, you may change your vote.
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: Snail on October 26, 2008, 11:14:55 am
I'd say they have control over multiple galaxies but since they don't seem to have much interest in the star systems they conquer (except for the Jump Nodes) I'd say III.
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: Titan on October 26, 2008, 11:23:27 am
hey, are you the guy that made that relentless trailer?
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: KappaWing on October 26, 2008, 11:46:20 am
hey, are you the guy that made that relentless trailer?

Yeah. I've resumed working on that mod. I'm 18 missions into it. Its expected to be about 25 total.
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: Molybdenum on October 26, 2008, 11:58:30 am
Having read the Wikipedia entry I'd say the canon shivans are somewhere between I and II. I'm assuming the Ts and Vs are at level I to make a fleet of their size(they can harness the energy of an entire planet). Our current civilization is at about 0.7 although we control all of the earths surface.

A level II civ is capable of harnessing the whole power output of a star. Assuming that what the Jugs did in Capella was acquiring energy in some form(in this case the energy need to travel) they did not in fact harness all of its power because a lot of it was wasted on the Supernova  :P

A level III Civ is basically the ultimate S-F hand wave possible.
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: terran_emperor on October 26, 2008, 12:33:34 pm
I think that they are Type IV civ

Depending on which physicist you ask, Type IV civilizations either;
A)Controls the energy output of the visible universe (about 1045W) - I'll call this IVA

B)harnessed the power of it's supercluster (for us about 1042W) - I'll call this IVB
 
or

C) harnessed extragalactic sources such as "dark energy" - I'll call this IVC

D) IVD (my own creation) does all three

...Id say the shivans are type IVC
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: Mobius on October 26, 2008, 12:48:05 pm
I'd say III.

Who voted I? :wtf:
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: Mars on October 26, 2008, 12:57:25 pm
They never show the ability to control all the power of a single star, only the ability to detonate a star uncontrollably
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: castor on October 26, 2008, 01:12:11 pm
1.25
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: KappaWing on October 26, 2008, 03:48:58 pm
I believe they are over type III, for reasons that terran emperor touched on. The ability to manipulate subspace does not necessarily imply that they can harness the power of multiple galaxies, but does suggest that they can at least travel to them. What the Shivans travel to, they can likely harness and control. I can't see them creating and maintaining a Sathanas fleet with anything less than a star cluster's power, considering the epic abilities of the Sathanas.

I'd say terrans and vasudans in FS2 are just above I.

I envision that we've only seen the tip of the iceberg with Shivans. As we go deeper and deeper into their space, we simply find larger and more menacing spacecraft.

Here is my personal theory on the Shivans. Shivans form and control galaxies, plain and simple. They are the alpha life form of the universe. Quasars are not actually black holes, but giant Shivan subspace vortexes that hold stars together so Shivans can localize their operations in each individual galaxy and do not have to spend the energy needed to transverse the intergalactic medium all the time. However, I think it would take the power of a star to propel a Sathanas fleet through intergalactic subspace. I think blue subspace jumps are interstellar, while green ones are intergalactic.

As for the Shivans home, I think they have their origins in subspace themselves. One cannot deny they have an affinity to subspace, and civilizations using subspace is what attracts them in the first place. (Terrans, Vasudans, Ancients)

Assuming a  limitless supply of energy in subspace, I think its not a stretch to say that Shivans have acheived universal domimation.
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: eliex on October 26, 2008, 04:06:59 pm
III
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: Snail on October 26, 2008, 04:54:54 pm
I think blue subspace jumps are interstellar, while green ones are intergalactic.
So the Knossos nodes all go to different galaxies?
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: Titan on October 26, 2008, 05:14:14 pm
hey, are you the guy that made that relentless trailer?

Yeah. I've resumed working on that mod. I'm 18 missions into it. Its expected to be about 25 total.

cool. i would sit and watch that looping for hours when i was 10.

sorry for the tangent everyone.  :)
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: KappaWing on October 26, 2008, 05:22:04 pm
I think blue subspace jumps are interstellar, while green ones are intergalactic.
So the Knossos nodes all go to different galaxies?

Negative, I was referring to the Capella incident. Knossos are Ancient structures.

cool. i would sit and watch that looping for hours when i was 10.

sorry for the tangent everyone.  :)

 ;)
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: Aardwolf on October 26, 2008, 05:23:19 pm
It's a stupid scale. Being able to do something that has effects on a large scale does not mean you can do everything that you might want to do on a smaller scale or on the same scale in a different location.
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: Rodo on October 26, 2008, 05:47:25 pm
Interesting way of measuring the extension of a civilization..

I would say the shivans are a III, I think they exploded Capella because they needed the energy from the nebulae to keep their society alive, but that's just my imagination talking...



Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: Kie99 on October 26, 2008, 07:33:36 pm
I'd say III.

Who voted I? :wtf:


No-one, there's no option to vote I :wtf:
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: DarthWang on October 26, 2008, 07:52:00 pm
Unknown

Not enough information
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: Mars on October 26, 2008, 07:57:34 pm
Well, answer me this, how exactly are we calculating all the power of a planet / star /galaxy? Supposedly civilization is using all of Earth's power (according to the wiki article) but we certainly are NOT.
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: Excalibur on October 26, 2008, 10:31:55 pm
So the Shivans are type III - they use 10^20, or 10000000000000000000 H bombs per second? :wtf: :doubt:

1.27. (anyone here think 3.6.9?) ;)
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: General Battuta on October 26, 2008, 10:33:44 pm
So the Shivans are type III - they use 10^20, or 10000000000000000000 H bombs per second? :wtf: :doubt:

1.27. (anyone here think 3.6.9?) ;)

That's pretty reasonable, actually.
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on October 26, 2008, 10:46:14 pm
/me has voted.

I'd say II. If they were all-powerful (i.e. III), they would be invincible, but they are not. The fact that the Lucifer was destroyed shows that even the Shivans cannot control subspace.
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: Droid803 on October 26, 2008, 10:48:08 pm
II seems about right.
To field a fleet of Saths, you have to be able to at least harness a star's worth of energy.
Not a goddamn galaxy though.
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: Mars on October 26, 2008, 11:00:43 pm
You wouldn't remotely need a stars "energy" and we're talking about power here, not energy. Each Sathanas is tiny compared to a planetoid, and even most asteroids. Why the hell would you need a stars worth of power to produce them?

This whole scale makes no sense to me, because in the end, we could be talking about power in a matter antimatter reaction, power in the chemical reactions that could occur, power that the object is receiving...
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on October 26, 2008, 11:11:21 pm
This (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:DarkMatterPie.jpg) might be worth a look.
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: Aardwolf on October 26, 2008, 11:38:31 pm
Aw, I was hoping for a funny image when I saw the filename.
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: General Battuta on October 27, 2008, 12:16:35 am
You wouldn't remotely need a stars "energy" and we're talking about power here, not energy. Each Sathanas is tiny compared to a planetoid, and even most asteroids. Why the hell would you need a stars worth of power to produce them?

This whole scale makes no sense to me, because in the end, we could be talking about power in a matter antimatter reaction, power in the chemical reactions that could occur, power that the object is receiving...

No matter what's producing it, power is measured in the same units.

The Kardashev scale specifically refers to the ability to harness the entire energy output of a star: i.e. build a Dyson shell around it.
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: NGTM-1R on October 27, 2008, 12:23:12 am
Which I doubt even the Shivans can do. Mars' point remains valid. Nowhere near that level is necessary even for the Shivan fleet we saw in FS2...particularly since for all we know they've been assembling it over a period of more than four millenia!
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: Mars on October 27, 2008, 12:37:16 am
Since Earth isn't really producing any energy at all, unless you count geothermal, it would be difficult to harness all of it. What is meant by "harnessing" and "all of the power" and "produced"? As I said, a lot of power could be produced if you took the Earth and combined it with an anti-matter Earth. That is not, I think, what is meant by "power produced"
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: Ghostavo on October 27, 2008, 02:56:00 am
I've got to say over Type II and perhaps Type III or beyond. Would any of us be "surprised" if they saw a Shivan Dyson Shell of sorts in an hypothetical FS3?
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: terran_emperor on October 27, 2008, 03:14:01 am
No, i wouldnt. I supect that have in their core space...If it can be defined as such, thousands if not millions of structures like the Star Forge from KOTOR
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: KappaWing on October 27, 2008, 11:45:30 am
Unknown

Not enough information

This thread is a place where you can take canon knowledge and add your imagination.

Canon indicates II, but leaves the possibility for III and above, depending on how your imagination takes you.
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: TrashMan on October 27, 2008, 05:39:02 pm
It's a stupid scale.


I agree. The scale is rubbish.

I believe no race will EVER be able to harness the power of a star, and especially a galaxy. It stinks of handvawium extraordinare.
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: redsniper on October 27, 2008, 06:08:27 pm
Guys, seriously. Shivan ships aren't that much better than Terran/Vasudan ships, and you kill A LOT of Shivans in both games. Yeah, we're outnumbered and outgunned, but I think it's by a comprehensible amount. If they were II or higher they'd just steamroll over us without a second thought. Type III and they could instantaneously vaporize all of our solar systems just as easily as we would swat a fly.

That said, I have had visions of venturing into Shivan space with some kind of amazingly advanced fleet, then watching Shivan ships in the distance a thousand times bigger than your fleet, duking it out with equally colossal ships of some other race ("symptom of a bigger problem" and all that). It would be great to just sit in awe of some massive conflict so destructive you couldn't begin to approach it without being destroyed.

Also, where does the GTVA fit on that scale? 1.01? 1.1?
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on October 27, 2008, 07:33:00 pm
I for the GTVA. If you count Terrans and Vasudans separately before the Great War, I estimate 0.5.
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: Droid803 on October 27, 2008, 07:33:37 pm
I for the GTVA. If you count Terrans and Vasudans separately before the Great War, I estimate 0.5.

Impossible. Our current civilization is rated at 0.72 already.
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: Shade on October 27, 2008, 07:56:00 pm
It isn't a linear scale though, but a very steep logarithmic scale (difference between 1 and 2 being the difference between a planet and a sun). Even though we're at .72 now we're a lot further from 1.0 than we are from 0.
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: Droid803 on October 27, 2008, 07:59:01 pm
Yeah, but its still impossible for the GTA/PVN to be any less than 0.72 like Exeunt said...
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: KappaWing on October 27, 2008, 08:43:39 pm
It isn't a linear scale though, but a very steep logarithmic scale (difference between 1 and 2 being the difference between a planet and a sun). Even though we're at .72 now we're a lot further from 1.0 than we are from 0.

Really? I was under the impression it was supposed to be linear after you take in the effects of the so-called technological singularity.
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: General Battuta on October 27, 2008, 08:44:17 pm
I don't think Kardashev and Vingean singularities are related.
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on October 27, 2008, 09:25:51 pm
Yeah, but its still impossible for the GTA/PVN to be any less than 0.72 like Exeunt said...

Did I mention that my estimates always fly off-course? :D
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: redsniper on October 27, 2008, 11:24:07 pm
Actually, I suppose being able to use ALL of the energy from a planet is a pretty tall order even in 300 years.

0.8-0.9
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: Mars on October 28, 2008, 12:38:11 am
Is it just me or is this a load of bull? No offense, but this scale doesn't make any sense at all; I notice no one is touching my big question here, which makes me think there's no real answer.

This scale will not, and cannot, accurately rate a civilizations technology level, because it does not define how the power is produced in terms of reactions, nor does it define what this power will be utilized for. Beyond that, it assumes a more advanced civilization will use more power.
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: KappaWing on October 28, 2008, 05:51:19 am
Mars and others make a good point. However, its very difficult to come up with a scale to "objectivley" measure the level of development of a civilization.
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: ShadowGorrath on October 28, 2008, 07:11:48 am
III - Shivans are god-like.
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on October 28, 2008, 07:52:04 am
If they were God-like, the Lucifer would've reached Earth and obliterated it. :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: ShadowGorrath on October 28, 2008, 07:56:08 am
No, Shivans are god-like. The only reason they are stopped, is because Alpha 1 is a god.
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on October 28, 2008, 08:03:18 am
You've DEFINITELY played too much JAD, Shadow. ;)
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: Topgun on October 28, 2008, 11:36:50 am
the shivans are somewhere between II and III.
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: Polpolion on October 28, 2008, 12:17:59 pm
I'd say about a 1.2. :v: did say thay they would have planet sized ships, and they would be kinda hard to make without a planet completely devoted to it, but that's still a long ways off of a dyson sphere or something in terms of difficulty.
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: Aardwolf on October 28, 2008, 01:59:52 pm
Like hell. Shivans are less than or equal to 1.
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: KappaWing on October 28, 2008, 04:00:41 pm
I'd say about a 1.2. :v: did say thay they would have planet sized ships, and they would be kinda hard to make without a planet completely devoted to it, but that's still a long ways off of a dyson sphere or something in terms of difficulty.

How do you reason a planet sized ship would be easier to build than a Dyson sphere?
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: Snail on October 28, 2008, 04:02:05 pm
A Dyson sphere is the size of a sun. A planet-sized ship is the size of a planet.
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: KappaWing on October 28, 2008, 04:23:45 pm
But a Dyson sphere is merely a loose network of solar satellites. A ship the size of the planet would be incredibly massive and complicated, as it would have the density of a skyscraper.
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: Snail on October 28, 2008, 04:27:37 pm
No, that's a Dyson swarm, a Dyson sphere is supposed to be something that completely engulfs the star.
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: Jeff Vader on October 28, 2008, 04:29:17 pm
Indeed. Intended to make sure that every single drop (in theory) of the star's energy output will be harvested.
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: KappaWing on October 28, 2008, 04:29:35 pm
No, that's a Dyson swarm, a Dyson sphere is supposed to be something that completely engulfs the star.

Ah, I stand corrected.  :)
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: Polpolion on October 28, 2008, 05:12:07 pm
Like hell. Shivans are less than or equal to 1.

Justify this claim.
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: Topgun on October 28, 2008, 07:01:15 pm
what if it's a tiny star?
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: redsniper on October 28, 2008, 07:49:24 pm
Then it's still HUUUUUUGE.
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: Droid803 on October 28, 2008, 08:02:01 pm
You can build multiple Dyson Swarms around multiple stars to the same effect as a Dyson Sphere...
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: Kie99 on October 28, 2008, 08:07:21 pm
Like hell. Shivans are less than or equal to 1.

Ridiculous comment.  Shivans control several systems worth of planets and obviously expend a lot of energy in creating juggernauts.  Considering we're already on about 0.7 it's highly unlikely that the Shivans haven't topped 1 yet.
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: Mars on October 28, 2008, 11:39:55 pm
First of all: answer me this.

How could we be using nearly all of the planets power if we're not converting it directly into energy?

How do we figure we're .7? I see that it says that on the wiki, but it makes no sense.

In order for the Shivans to be II on the scale, they'd need to be using ALL of the power available from a sun. That's a ridiculous amount of energy, capable of vaporizing everything else in a given solar system. A fraction of that power would be necessary to create the entire Shivan fleet (as seen in game) over the course, of say, a year. How do YOU figure they're II?

And for the love of God, these are not rhetorical questions.

Unless you can prove that they do indeed use ALL the power from a star, (for something other than a nova) yours is the ridiculous comment.
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on October 29, 2008, 12:49:24 am
Now I know why Mars says that this scale's ridiculous. There's too much ambiguity. :p
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: General Battuta on October 29, 2008, 08:21:03 am
I think the scale itself is actually very well defined, but we should really hunt down a good, firm definition if we're going to continue the debate.
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: Aardwolf on October 29, 2008, 08:36:12 am
I agree; the scale is well defined.

I could define Zababababadaturakaplo as floating pink elephants the size of your left big toe, that live in Spain and like to drink iced tea while listening to punk metal but in all other cases prefer listening to Alicia Keyes, and I could go on defining it until there is absolutely no ambiguity in the matter -- it's still completely useless.

The problem is that defining something well doesn't make it any more practical.
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: General Battuta on October 29, 2008, 08:48:12 am
The Kardashev scale is a good metric of the development of a civilization.

I just think we're underestimating the gap between I, II, and III by a good amount. It's a logarithmic scale, after all.

Remember, it's a theoretical framework, not a specific metric -- even when there are specific numbers attached to it. You're intended to assign a civilization a ballpark Kardashev value, not a specific one.

It's the cosmic way of saying 'yeah, he's pretty ripped' as compared to 'mildly fit.' You don't need to specify muscle mass.
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: Kie99 on October 29, 2008, 02:06:06 pm
First of all: answer me this.

How could we be using nearly all of the planets power if we're not converting it directly into energy?

How do we figure we're .7? I see that it says that on the wiki, but it makes no sense.

In order for the Shivans to be II on the scale, they'd need to be using ALL of the power available from a sun. That's a ridiculous amount of energy, capable of vaporizing everything else in a given solar system. A fraction of that power would be necessary to create the entire Shivan fleet (as seen in game) over the course, of say, a year. How do YOU figure they're II?

And for the love of God, these are not rhetorical questions.

Unless you can prove that they do indeed use ALL the power from a star, (for something other than a nova) yours is the ridiculous comment.

I'm not arguing they use ALL the power from a star, although I reckon they probably could, I'm arguing that they're greater than I, that is, they use more than the power from a planet.  You don't need to use all the power from a star to be greater than I.
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: Mars on October 29, 2008, 02:23:58 pm
But planets don't produce power themselves.
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: Topgun on October 29, 2008, 02:25:30 pm
yes they do. sorta. (in the core)
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: Mars on October 29, 2008, 02:26:22 pm
But that's not the energy we use and we're supposedly .7
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: Topgun on October 29, 2008, 02:30:31 pm
yeah, we use it. geothermal energy is what they are calling it these days.
anyway, we fusion, so that makes us awesome.
too bad we don't use it at a grand scale....
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: Molybdenum on October 29, 2008, 02:38:21 pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth%27s_energy_budget

Most of a planets power output is solar energy and we harness a fair deal of it by growing crops.
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: Mars on October 29, 2008, 02:39:42 pm
Thank you.
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: Polpolion on October 29, 2008, 06:10:16 pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth%27s_energy_budget

Most of a planets power output is solar energy and we harness a fair deal of it by growing crops.

Ermm... Solar energy isn't exactly "planet" power output.
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: Droid803 on October 29, 2008, 06:16:34 pm
Its power output accessible on the planet.
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: terran_emperor on October 29, 2008, 07:25:08 pm
yeah, we use it. geothermal energy is what they are calling it these days.
anyway, we fusion, so that makes us awesome.
too bad we don't use it at a grand scale....

We dont use Fusion in nuclear reactors we use Fission...
Fusion is still many years away
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: Droid803 on October 29, 2008, 07:35:18 pm
We have experimental fusion reactors.
We're using them for research.
Fusion power plants are many years away.
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: Polpolion on October 29, 2008, 09:21:54 pm
I still haven't seen any reasonable evidence suggesting that the Shivans are >=2, other than "OMG!! SHIVANS ARE GODLIEK!!!" or "TEH GTVA IS LIEK 0.7 THE SHIVANS MUSSST BE LIKE 8."
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: Excalibur on October 29, 2008, 09:34:14 pm
But that's not the energy we use and we're supposedly .7

As far as I know, logarithms and the difference between 0.72 and 1.00 doesn't mean we use 72% of a planet's energy. If you see an e^(ex) graph, which I hope is sort of like a log graph except y = f(x), then x = 0.72 means y = 7.17, x= 1.00 means y = 15.15. I think log graphs are even steeper than this, so we may only be using 28%...

Is that right? :???:
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: Kie99 on October 30, 2008, 05:49:53 am
I still haven't seen any reasonable evidence suggesting that the Shivans are >=2, other than "OMG!! SHIVANS ARE GODLIEK!!!" or "TEH GTVA IS LIEK 0.7 THE SHIVANS MUSSST BE LIKE 8."

They're capable of blowing up a sun, and according to :v: they had planet sized ships.  Either they've been building these ships for an extremely long time or they can harness extreme amount of energy (enough to deconstruct a planet's worth of material).  A Sathanas can output the equivalent of a Teraton of TNT in energy in about a minute.  There is strong evidence that the Shivans are an extremely advanced civilisation.
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: Rodo on October 30, 2008, 06:08:51 am
They're capable of blowing up a sun, and according to :v: they had planet sized ships.  Either they've been building these ships for an extremely long time or they can harness extreme amount of energy (enough to deconstruct a planet's worth of material).  A Sathanas can output the equivalent of a Teraton of TNT in energy in about a minute.  There is strong evidence that the Shivans are an extremely advanced civilisation.

Or they are just a over-evolved species with more capabilities, just because they have been around a little more time that us on the universe.

Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: Spicious on October 30, 2008, 06:34:12 am
Some of you seem to be having great difficulties dealing with the differences between energy and power.
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: KappaWing on October 30, 2008, 07:15:14 am
I think the Shivan ships are supposed to be a lot more powerful and difficult to destroy than they appear in game. This is a game, enemy fleets are balanced to friendly fleets for gameplay purposes, which always takes a back seat to RP. IMO, "reality" is Shivans on Insane mode.
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on October 30, 2008, 08:01:46 am
Some of you seem to be having great difficulties dealing with the differences between energy and power.

Are you implying that energy is...raw and uncontrolled power, while power is energy that can be harnessed and put to use by a civilisation?
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: General Battuta on October 30, 2008, 08:26:50 am
I think he's referring to the physical definitions.
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: Polpolion on October 30, 2008, 12:27:31 pm
I still haven't seen any reasonable evidence suggesting that the Shivans are >=2, other than "OMG!! SHIVANS ARE GODLIEK!!!" or "TEH GTVA IS LIEK 0.7 THE SHIVANS MUSSST BE LIKE 8."

They're capable of blowing up a sun, and according to :v: they had planet sized ships.  Either they've been building these ships for an extremely long time or they can harness extreme amount of energy (enough to deconstruct a planet's worth of material).  A Sathanas can output the equivalent of a Teraton of TNT in energy in about a minute.  There is strong evidence that the Shivans are an extremely advanced civilisation.

Thank you.
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: Charismatic on October 30, 2008, 12:31:01 pm
Voted III

Well,  yes, shivans are like on Insane difficulty. I think they can control the power of stars and can go beyond that. The fact it took either their whole fleet of Sathi, or, a chunk of their closest Sathi fleet to do something to the star Shows they know about stars a bit more then us. The fact that the star blew up and took out a ton of their ships, shows they either have not perfected it, or thats all they can do. Sathi x 100 took alot of resources to build. I think they control several galixies, and at the minimum 3. They pooled in from 1 galixy and took out all ancient controled galixies + ours. They have planet sized ships, and have strong forces in many galixies but not all. They either were trying to harness power from Capella, and ****ed up, or they tried to blowit up. But it does not make sence to blow it up, and loose that many ships. Possibly for travel but, its a Very costly travel method. Not to get home... they Came from other galixies they wouldent need our one tiny capella star.
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: Mars on October 30, 2008, 03:11:13 pm
Where are these planet sized ships of which you speak?
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: terran_emperor on October 30, 2008, 03:43:11 pm
Unkown. :v: has stated that the shivans have planet sized ships, thus it is a Canon fact the they have em. The details of these ships, like their firepower, shape etc are all unknown. My guess is that if (Use Rot13 here) SF3 had come out, theyd appear something like the Earth model from INF R1 for distance/background shots and utilize surface plates (like the Moon Surface from TBP) when you got up close and personal 
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: Snail on October 30, 2008, 03:46:09 pm
Unkown. :v: has stated that the shivans have planet sized ships, thus it is a Canon fact the they have em.
They didn't say they did. In fact, this entire notion is heavily corrupted. All :v: said was that they'd like to use ships that influence the playing field like a planetary surface; nothing about Shivans or if they even were planet sized.
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: AlphaOne on October 31, 2008, 11:24:33 am
I believe ppl here gravely underestimate the technological abilaties and know how of the GTVA and overestimate that of the shivans.

I mean making them some sort of godlike creatures is just plain old stupid.

Its the classic SF thin you see. All powerfull go like creatures are defeated or halted by these primitive retarted creatures that can barely wipe their own arses.

I mean come on.

I mean they blew up a star but it took the a massive fleet of jugg's to do it. Oh yeah and they lost a frak load of them in the process.

I mean sure they are more advanced then the GTVA that is obvious. However their tech doesnt seem that much more advanced when you stop and think about their age. I mean 10k years a go ppl barely knew to make fire .

Yet in the 10.000 years or so since the destruction of the Ancients all they managed to do is build juggs.

I mean in 10.000 years they should of had ships the size of fighter capable of taking out entire galaxies. Come on ppl.

Oh yeah and in 10.000 years they never figured out how to properly build a go damn warships. Sure they have impressive beam weapons and subspace tech but then again those are pretty much useless with the proper tactic used.

So mi guess is that they are about 1,5-1,7 with the GTVA at about 1,1-1,3 top.

Sure there is a significant gap in tech but given a few decades GTVA weapons and perhaps even subspace tech might evolve to rival i repeat rival not beat shivan tech.
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: KappaWing on October 31, 2008, 04:38:05 pm
I believe ppl here gravely underestimate the technological abilaties and know how of the GTVA and overestimate that of the shivans.

I mean making them some sort of godlike creatures is just plain old stupid.

Its the classic SF thin you see. All powerfull go like creatures are defeated or halted by these primitive retarted creatures that can barely wipe their own arses.

I mean come on.

I mean they blew up a star but it took the a massive fleet of jugg's to do it. Oh yeah and they lost a frak load of them in the process.

I mean sure they are more advanced then the GTVA that is obvious. However their tech doesnt seem that much more advanced when you stop and think about their age. I mean 10k years a go ppl barely knew to make fire .

Yet in the 10.000 years or so since the destruction of the Ancients all they managed to do is build juggs.

I mean in 10.000 years they should of had ships the size of fighter capable of taking out entire galaxies. Come on ppl.

Oh yeah and in 10.000 years they never figured out how to properly build a go damn warships. Sure they have impressive beam weapons and subspace tech but then again those are pretty much useless with the proper tactic used.

So mi guess is that they are about 1,5-1,7 with the GTVA at about 1,1-1,3 top.

Sure there is a significant gap in tech but given a few decades GTVA weapons and perhaps even subspace tech might evolve to rival i repeat rival not beat shivan tech.

How do you know you're not just seeing the tip of the iceberg?
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: General Battuta on October 31, 2008, 04:50:46 pm
Yeah, that's the question we've always got to ask.

The later stages of Freespace 2, particularly 'Into the Lions Den', shattered preconceptions about how far Shivan space extended. We don't know if that kind of expansion-of-scope would continue, but we don't know if it wouldn't.

It's a mystery!
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: AlphaOne on November 01, 2008, 04:11:24 am
I can ask how do you know the jugg's we see there are not the entire jugg fleet at their disposal?

How do you know that the 80+ jugg's we see is not perhaps 1/3rd or more of their fleet ??

Look the arguements can go either way since we do not know the extent of the shivan controled space. However if the shivans would of been the god like creatures some of the ppl here make them out to be then the GTVA should o been wiped out in less then 1 hour.

Yet 2 times in a row the GTVA ha posponed its destruction and in the first FS even took out what was deemed as an indestructible ship.

Not only that but the GTVA is rapidly catching up with the shivans in terms of tech. Sure they are still a long way away but the GTVA is growing rather fast and catching up and improving on already existent shivan tech.
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: Snail on November 01, 2008, 05:42:59 am
Look the arguements can go either way since we do not know the extent of the shivan controled space. However if the shivans would of been the god like creatures some of the ppl here make them out to be then the GTVA should o been wiped out in less then 1 hour.

Yet 2 times in a row the GTVA ha posponed its destruction and in the first FS even took out what was deemed as an indestructible ship.
It's evident the Shivans weren't serious about wiping out the GTVA on either attempt. In FS1, they sent in the Lucifer... If they were serious during FS1, they'd have sent in at least a few Sathanes, but all they sent was one single Lucifer and a few Demons (without beams, no less). Even if the Lucifer fleet was all that the Shivans could muster at that point, it still means that we're seeing their full potential.

In FS2, the Shivans didn't even send a single juggernaut to attack Vega or Epsilon Pegasi. They were all dicking around the star. If they were serious, there would be no bloody way the GTVA could survive against 80 juggernauts.

So, the Shivans could be god-like creatures, but just can't be be assed to wipe out the GTVA.
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: james777 on November 01, 2008, 05:50:58 am
III
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: castor on November 01, 2008, 06:44:47 am
I think Terrans/Vasudans wouldn't had much of hope understanding Shivan technologies as they did, if Shivans were anywhere close to level II.
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: Mars on November 01, 2008, 10:42:25 am
Well so far they've been able to improve Shivan fighters, retrofit shivan weapons (UD-8 Kayser) and build (a comparitively small number) of comparable ships. I'd say the only aspect they're behind in is production and population.
Title: Re: Where are the Shivans on the Kardashev Scale?
Post by: Polpolion on November 02, 2008, 04:46:29 pm
I believe ppl here gravely underestimate the technological abilaties and know how of the GTVA and overestimate that of the shivans.

I mean making them some sort of godlike creatures is just plain old stupid.

Its the classic SF thin you see. All powerfull go like creatures are defeated or halted by these primitive retarted creatures that can barely wipe their own arses.

I mean come on.

I mean they blew up a star but it took the a massive fleet of jugg's to do it. Oh yeah and they lost a frak load of them in the process.

I mean sure they are more advanced then the GTVA that is obvious. However their tech doesnt seem that much more advanced when you stop and think about their age. I mean 10k years a go ppl barely knew to make fire .

Yet in the 10.000 years or so since the destruction of the Ancients all they managed to do is build juggs.

I mean in 10.000 years they should of had ships the size of fighter capable of taking out entire galaxies. Come on ppl.

Oh yeah and in 10.000 years they never figured out how to properly build a go damn warships. Sure they have impressive beam weapons and subspace tech but then again those are pretty much useless with the proper tactic used.

So mi guess is that they are about 1,5-1,7 with the GTVA at about 1,1-1,3 top.

Sure there is a significant gap in tech but given a few decades GTVA weapons and perhaps even subspace tech might evolve to rival i repeat rival not beat shivan tech.

I take it you've never watched the end cutscene to FS1?