Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: adwight on March 19, 2002, 10:40:58 pm
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So, who would win? I'll take the Shivans. (Kushan are a race from Homeworld, they have this same poll at http://www.relicnews.com)
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Shivans... Sathanases out the wazoo. Liliths, Dragons, and supernovae-inducing weapons don't hurt either.
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I *tried* (kind of) to defend FS:2 over there, yet they still think that the Kushan would win. :( (HAH!)
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No constest. The heavy cruiser would have a hard battle with a Sathanas, just to watch as 81 more Sathani come out of subspace. Byby Mothership...
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How in the hell would Kushan ships even get CLOSE to a Shivan warship? Hell their fighters would be mowed down en mass by Anti-fighter beams and flak guns. And no puny kinetic cannon is gonna rip a hole in a Shivan Moloch.
The Siege Cannon would do fair damage I'd say.
But vs. 50 Jugs or even the Lucifer? Dead species walking.
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Bravo, adwight.
Let get some good stuff to defend the Shivans with over at the Relic Forums.
By the way, No Juggies, No BFReds.
The Kushan are the proverbial double-amputee.
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I came, I saw, I posted for the shivans
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The kushns offcourse the sathanas get her ass kickt by a HC cause that baby can fire totaly broadside, or they just plunge the siege cannon on it.
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Originally posted by USS Alexander
The kushns offcourse the sathanas get her ass kickt by a HC cause that baby can fire totaly broadside, or they just plunge the siege cannon on it.
it can fire broadside!!! cool, and so what? the sathanas always run directly at the target, it doesn't make puny evasicve actions :p
and it resists to dozens of antimatter warheads, so lol at your siege gun :D
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The only Kushan advantage is that their ships are as fast as hell (by FS2 standards), but have you ever seen a Kushan ship fleet blow up an entire star.
No siiiireeee :nod:
Kushan get :headz:
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[size=8][glow=white]GO SHIVANS![/glow][/size]
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Originally posted by Mr. Vega
[size=8][glow=white]GO SHIVANS![/glow][/size]
Now that's something you don't see everyday
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Special Threads™ require Special Posts™
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Originally posted by venom2506
it can fire broadside!!! cool, and so what? the sathanas always run directly at the target, it doesn't make puny evasicve actions :p
and it resists to dozens of antimatter warheads, so lol at your siege gun :D
hahaha whe ram the satahanas away with our ramming frigates and then the firelance frigats jump in, and nothing can resist the siege cannon
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Originally posted by USS Alexander
hahaha whe ram the satahanas away with our ramming frigates and then the firelance frigats jump in, and nothing can resist the siege cannon
OMG :lol: Ramming frigates!?
Now, no offense, but did you ever think of the "little" size difference between a sathanas and a ramming frigate? :D
And nothing can resist the siege cannon, except the Nomad moon, 2 times :p
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Originally posted by Pera
OMG :lol: Ramming frigates!?
Now, no offense, but did you ever think of the "little" size difference between a sathanas and a ramming frigate? :D
And nothing can resist the siege cannon, except the Nomad moon, 2 times :p
Thats why whe will use 50 of them, and the nomad moon had a repulsor and the satah hasn't
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*imagines the Shivans popping out of the hull of the Sath and boarding the ramming frigs*
Bwa ha ha!
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Whoever did the layout for that Relic board needs to be taken out and shot...
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Uh? I just noticed someone actually voted for Kushan. Even worse, two people voted for Kushan. Ok, one of them is probably Alexander, so he can be forgiven, but the other one better get the hell out of my path, or his gonna get a :headz:
And BTW Whoever did the layout for that Relic board needs to be taken out and shot...
Amen to that!
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Pfff, Shivans all the way.
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Originally posted by USS Alexander
The kushns offcourse the sathanas get her ass kickt by a HC cause that baby can fire totaly broadside, or they just plunge the siege cannon on it.
He said it :nod:
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Now, after reading that thread, it appears that they think the Shivans would win too... :p
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Originally posted by Stunaep
Amen to that!
I was referring to the fact that when viewed in Opera it renders as black text on a black background. Whoever's responsible for that needs to be taken out and shot...
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No question. ;)
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Originally posted by Admiral LSD
Whoever did the layout for that Relic board needs to be taken out and shot...
As a full-time GDH, Relic maintains their Corporate Website and the forums, they have to make a decision to support the most widely used platforms available. Therefore their site(s) would support IE and Netscape. I'll poke around and see if anybody over there has had a problem using Opera.
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Originally posted by Skippy
He said it :nod:
Am I the only TAP:r here who thinks the Shivans would win? :)
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Kushans would win...
More durable ships than Shivan (cap ships) faster moving than Shivan
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Originally posted by Bishop Gantry
Kushans would win...
More durable ships than Shivan (cap ships) faster moving than Shivan
Hmm, more durable ships?
You can't compare HW and FS ships byt thinking about how much damage they can take, because the weapons are different, but here's one thing:
Remember the mission in original homeworld where you have to clear a path for the mothership through an asteroid field? Well in that mission, only 4-5 small asteroids blow up a destroyer, just think about how many asteroids can a FS2 ship take without going down. And those HW weapons didn't do a jack against asteroids, in FS even a wing of fighters can take down large asteroids in no time.
And anyone remember shields? FS2 shields are completely invulnerable to kinetic weapons, a dogfight would be quite easy for the shivans. Also, HW fighters are like 200 meters long, quite of an easy target for a capship, wouldn't you think?
About the speed: Sure, HW ships ARE fast, a lot faster than FS ships(if we forger about physics, that is), but that doesn't really matter, a WW2 fighterplane is faster than a modern day tank, but it doesn't matter when the fighter can't hurt the tank at all. As someone said, FS2 ships can take dozens of impacts from antimatter torpedoes(once again, forget about physics), a simple 400-500 meter ball of plasma wouldn't feel anywhere, not to mention the other HW weapons.
Jeez, I can't imagine I'm arguing about something like this :rolleyes:
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Shivan (http://www.sectorgame.com/f2s/forumfiles/emoticons/die.gif)
Kushan pilot 1- It's not working!
Kushan commander- Oh noooooo!
*all kushans get blown to smithereens*
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Originally posted by GalacticEmperor
Shivan (http://www.sectorgame.com/f2s/forumfiles/emoticons/die.gif)
Kushan pilot 1- It's not working!
Kushan commander- Oh noooooo!
*all kushans get blown to smithereens*
:lol: Yes, that was pretty much my point :nod:
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And anyone remember shields? FS2 shields are completely invulnerable to kinetic weapons, a dogfight would be quite easy for the shivans. Also, HW fighters are like 200 meters long, quite of an easy target for a capship, wouldn't you think?
Did you forget the Morning Star and Flail?
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Originally posted by Mr. Vega
Did you forget the Morning Star and Flail?
What about them? If I remember correctly, they are energy weapons that have a _kinetic effect_ on the target. Let's just say that "shields are invulnerable against projectile weapons".
Better?
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*cough missiles uncough* ever attempted to ram a ship in FS2 the ship will take damage
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Originally posted by Bishop Gantry
*cough missiles uncough* ever attempted to ram a ship in FS2 the ship will take damage
Umm... The last time I checked FS2 shields stop missiles. I've always thought that the shields in FS ships have sort of a proximity sensor, which tells them to activate when something dangerous is about to hit the hull. Maybe this system detects when a hit is too powerful for the shield to stop, and then doesn't activate the shield. Would explain why beams go through them.
But when you ram a ship, it does take damage, but only very little, perhaps the shield doesn't even try to waste power on something that can be easily stopped by the ships armor.
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dunno what difficulty your running on but you take a pretty heafty damage from ramming things...
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Originally posted by Bishop Gantry
dunno what difficulty your running on but you take a pretty heafty damage from ramming things...
Define "hefty damage" If I fly at maximum speed, hit an enemy who is also flying at maximum speed towards me, and both I and he take less´damage than from a single prometheus shot, then I wouldn't call it "hefty damage". In HW, fighter who collide with each other blow up instantly.
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Originally posted by GalacticEmperor
Shivan (http://www.sectorgame.com/f2s/forumfiles/emoticons/die.gif)
Kushan pilot 1- It's not working!
Kushan commander- Oh noooooo!
*all kushans get blown to smithereens*
:lol: :lol:
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Originally posted by GalacticEmperor
Shivan (http://www.sectorgame.com/f2s/forumfiles/emoticons/die.gif)
Kushan pilot 1- It's not working!
Kushan commander- Oh noooooo!
*all kushans get blown to smithereens*
That's correct though, a mass driver wouldn't do jack to a Shivan fighter.
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Originally posted by adwight
That's correct though, a mass driver wouldn't do jack to a Shivan fighter.
The Maxim works against Shivan fighters doesn't it? It takes a while to eat away at the shields, but it will eventually get through.
For various reasons I'd have to go for the Shivans to win over the Kushan.
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Firstly, we encouter the problems of crossing the two universes.
Secondly as far as I have seen so far just about no one truely gave this real thought. If by some strange effect the two did meet up and had a scrap, well.
Shivans use subspace drive, which as we all know requires a local stellar body to produce enough gravititation force to allow intra-system jump drives to work. After that specific subspace nodes are required to travel from system to system.
Kushan use hyperdrive, now while this has the advantage of being able to jump just about anywhere does have a limited (if long) range and also requires a slightly longer re-charge time than SS-drives.
Next up is the fact that the Kushan, unlike the GTVA, do have ships comparable in size, power, and 'evilness' to the shivans. I point your attention towards the Avatar heavy cruiser and other super-cap ship.
From looking at the two racial technologies it is probably that the Shivan Sathanas beam cannons are more powerful than ion beams over a period of time. But, the HC is more maneuverable and far faster. This is true for nearly all Kushan ships, they are far far faster than their shivan counterparts. The fastest ship the Shiv's has only travels 90 m/s, the kushan scout does 1000m/s!
And another point, due to the nature of 'no shields' the kushan have, their ships are made far more solidly built and thus have significanly more armour and integrity (a scout can survive an ion beam hit for half a second or so. No shivan vessel (except perhaps the fan made vindhyachel) could survive a main beam cannon hit).
The Shiv vessels also wouldn't appear to have the mass construction capability of a carrier, mothership or commandship. And lets be honest, no meson bomb can compare to the power of the siege cannon.
Over all if both sides where to engage each other in typical combat style of their universe it is anyones guess who would win, but at present the odds are in favour of the Kushan. Although is the situation and location where right either of the two could totally obliterate the other.
That is the fact. And now here is the separate oppinion...
As a hard core HW fan I say... THE KUSHAN WOULD WIPE THE FLOOR WITH THE SHIVANS!!! READ IT AND WEEP!
Thank you for your co-operation. :)
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This is for Elorran, didn't wan't to quote the whole post:
Those are good points, but once again, you are forgetting one thing. You said that:
"And another point, due to the nature of 'no shields' the kushan have, their ships are made far more solidly built and thus have significanly more armour and integrity"
And:
"And lets be honest, no meson bomb can compare to the power of the siege cannon. "
As I said earlier, you really can't tell how powerful the Kushans and Shivans weapons are when compared to each other, as the ships also may have different kind of armour. So in other words, even if a scout can take a short hit from an ion beam, and a sathanas can take minutes of pounding from BFRed:s, it doesn't mean that the other universe's weapons have the same effect.
Now, as I also said earlier, there is one single way of comparing weapons(and at the same time, armour) strenghts of HW and FS ships, asteroids. In FS2, a couple of hits from a fighter weapon take out any asteroid, and capships can take dozens, if not hundreds of impacts from large asteroids. Now think about asteroids in HW, in that mission of original homeworld, 3 destroyers and numerous smaller ships had to shoot for a few second to take down a small asteroid, not to mention the larger ones.
About the Siege cannon vs Meson Bomb:
This is a bit science crap, but in FS2, meson bombs create a whole lot more damage that antimatter warheads. HW:CAT manual(if I remember correctly) says that the siege cannon fires a bolt of high-energy plasma. Sure, this is deadly, and would certainly heavily damage any ship, but it's not even comparable to what an antimatter warhead would do, not to mention the meson bomb.
So to put it the same way as you: THE SHIVANS WOULD WIPE THE FLOOR WITH THE KUSHANS!!! READ IT AND WEEP!!!! ;7 :p
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yeah, plus the shivans are just more numerous by a fair lenght, and they have the Lucifer with invicible tag :D
her... pointless post :p
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Ph33r the might of the invincible tag!! :D
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Meson Bomb vs. Siege Cannon
Siege Cannon - Massive burst of H.E. plasma with a large shockwave at the end. Strike Craft(Fighters, Bombers, small animals, ect.) totally destroyed, Larger Craft(everything else) heavily damaged(if at 100% health).
Meson Bomb - Works by breaking down the bonds between Mesons within an atom there by generating massive amounts of energy that explode outward, ANYTHING within 3 kilometers is COMPLETELY destroyed.
FS2 wins on sheer destructive power.
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Siege cannon 40 KM's range give or take some km's
Kill radius roughly 11 KM. Frigate sized craft destroyed at that range... with some rough quik tests:doh:
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Originally posted by Bishop Gantry
Siege cannon 40 KM's range give or take some km's
Kill radius roughly 11 KM. Frigate sized craft destroyed at that range... with some rough quik tests:doh:
I know, but those are bloody homeworld frigates! :) You just can't tell how powerful HW weapons are against FS ships and vice versa by just testing them in the other game. For all we know, Siege Cannon=Plasma, Helios=Antimatter. and Antimatter>Plasma :p
And where did you get those ranges from? Does cataclysm somehow show you distances? I must just have been blind...
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Okay, but kids you're forgetting the whole point:
Shivans-More ships, period.
Shivans win, no matter how many siege cannons you have the Shivans have more. End of line.
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Shivans-More ships, period.
Shivans win, no matter how many siege cannons you have the Shivans have more. End of line.
That sums up my thoughts as well. Can't argue with 80+ Sathanas, can you? :D
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Alpha one can
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But the Kushan don't have an Alpha 1 do they? :ha: ;)
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they will as soon as TAP is done
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Originally posted by NegspectahDek
they will as soon as TAP is done
Hmm, guess we'll just have to use some other callsign for the player than alpha one :p :D
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Tapper One? :p
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I used the move command to verify the ranges its shows the range... the Sige cannon can fire even further but it starts to loose firepower then the more the range becomes...
Shivans win, no matter how many siege cannons you have the Shivans have more. End of line.
for all we know those 80 Sathanas could be the only thing remaning of the Shivans :nod:
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Originally posted by Bishop Gantry
for all we know those 80 Sathanas could be the only thing remaning of the Shivans :nod:
Holy Cow, this is some theory!!!
Man this is actually rather compelling.
Think about it, what would be powerful enough to almost entirely wipe out a race, that has been exterminating civilizations for thousands of years. For our sake, I hope we never find out :nod:
And no, Kushan is not the answer.
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Originally posted by Bishop Gantry
I used the move command to verify the ranges its shows the range... the Sige cannon can fire even further but it starts to loose firepower then the more the range becomes...
for all we know those 80 Sathanas could be the only thing remaning of the Shivans :nod:
don't think so, otherwise I doubt they would have sacrified half of them ;) see, even sathanas are expendable ships for shivans :D
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Originally posted by Bishop Gantry
I used the move command to verify the ranges its shows the range
As in the words of our dear friend Smith, I'll be godsmacked! You know, I've actually played catalysms single player campaign through _four_ times, and I hadn't noticed that :D :yes:
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Wasent it just four five Sathansa that went capish??? most of the Sathanas jumped out as I remember it...
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Originally posted by Bishop Gantry
Wasent it just four five Sathansa that went capish??? most of the Sathanas jumped out as I remember it...
Well, they did jump out, but tell me one place where they could jump to avoid the supernova? I mean, even the Shivans need jump nodes to jump out of a system, and I doubt they would have had time to jump out to gamma draconis before the shockwave reached them.
Of course, if Petrarch was right about the supernova being some sort of a mega-jump node, then it's a different thing. Unfortunately, we'll never know :(
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Originally posted by Pera
I mean, even the Shivans need jump nodes to jump out of a system,
I'm not so sure about that. :)
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:devilidea The gravimetric disturbances of the star just previous to the supernova probably opened an enormous node to God knows where.
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maybe they jumped inside the shockwave, ie closer to the star. if the explosions done, its just as safe as gamma draconis
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Originally posted by NegspectahDek
maybe they jumped inside the shockwave, ie closer to the star. if the explosions done, its just as safe as gamma draconis
No. There, you may not have a fire ball, but you have superheated gazes as hot as the core of a star. The Sathanas would melt in a fraction of second.
Btw, about the stahanas all jumping out, do you realize they were 80, and you see, what, 6 or 7 on the screen? :)
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Originally posted by venom2506
No. There, you may not have a fire ball, but you have superheated gazes as hot as the core of a star. The Sathanas would melt in a fraction of second.
Btw, about the stahanas all jumping out, do you realize they were 80, and you see, what, 6 or 7 on the screen? :)
There were more than that, though not maybe quite 80.
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about 80, they said it in a CB ani
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Originally posted by venom2506
about 80, they said it in a CB ani
I meant _we saw_ more that 6-7 :)
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ah ok sorry :)
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We saw 8 or 9 in the Into The Lions' Den system, didn't we? I wonder where all the rest of the juggernauts came from...
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Originally posted by venom2506
No. There, you may not have a fire ball, but you have superheated gazes as hot as the core of a star. The Sathanas would melt in a fraction of second.
Btw, about the stahanas all jumping out, do you realize they were 80, and you see, what, 6 or 7 on the screen? :)
maybe, but they would prob be very diffuse, and they would cool down quickly. that plus the armour on the sathanas would prob take alot to melt it. I stand by my theory. and just to clarify, i didnt mean jump inside the star, i meant wait till the explosion passed the orbit of mercury and then jump inside the orbit of mercury. but im no astrophysicist, so.....
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Ok, but what would the POINT be. What would 80 Saths want to do with a big-ol' nebulae. They've got the one beyond Gamma Drac. I believe they jumped out to a galaxy far, far away.
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Originally posted by Stunaep
Ok, but what would the POINT be. What would 80 Saths want to do with a big-ol' nebulae. They've got the one beyond Gamma Drac. I believe they jumped out to a galaxy far, far away.
They're Shivans, since when have the Shivans made sense? :)
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Originally posted by NegspectahDek
maybe, but they would prob be very diffuse, and they would cool down quickly. that plus the armour on the sathanas would prob take alot to melt it. I stand by my theory. and just to clarify, i didnt mean jump inside the star, i meant wait till the explosion passed the orbit of mercury and then jump inside the orbit of mercury. but im no astrophysicist, so.....
Nope, not really: nebulas resulting from supernovas stays at some millions of degrees for some thousands of year at least.
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Originally posted by Pera
They're Shivans, since when have the Shivans made sense? :)
Since FS1, where they headed for all our major centeres and kicked our asses everywhere :) They just didn't think we would be lucky enough to find an ancient text telling us how to beat them.
Btw, am I the only one astonished by the fact that the Vasudans scientists found those writings first, and not some crappy ancient newspaper or porn novel? When the GTVA has luck, it seems it's a damn big luck isn't it?
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Who said the Vasudans didnt find any porn novels;7 ;7 ;7 ;7 ;7 ;7 ;7
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Originally posted by venom2506
Nope, not really: nebulas resulting from supernovas stays at some millions of degrees for some thousands of year at least.
well then nevermind
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Originally posted by Bishop Gantry
Who said the Vasudans didnt find any porn novels;7
"Pilot, you will be informed on recent developments on a need-to-know basis."
"All ancient texts have been classified, accessable only to the GTVA security council."
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The Ancients probably took great pains to ensure that the knowledge of how to defeat the greatest threat in the known universe would be discovered, they probably carved it into a sheet of warship armor and placed it just so any archeaologists would find it and be curious enough to decipher it first. It was possible it was written in ancient Vasudan because the Ancients had visited Vasuda Prime in their last years and realized that the Vasudans would be the first to reach Altair IV(easter egg: Altair IV is the planet from "Forbidden Planet").
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The Kushan might stand a chance.... if the Beast joined in, then the Shivans would have some real fun!
Kushan vs. Shivans RESULTS
Shivans- ;) ;)
Kushan -:headz:
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deppends on witch cast of Kushan joins the fray...
anyway SHivans would have hard time even looking onto kushan fighters heck they might even have hard time targetting kushan cap ships...
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Originally posted by elorran
The Shiv vessels also wouldn't appear to have the mass construction capability of a carrier, mothership or commandship.
No, the Shivans don't have mass production capability on their spaceships, but they do have a couple bazzillion sathanases and probably many more other ship types(if they can make so many sathanases, think of the number of corvettes they could make)
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Mmh... prove me that a sathanas can't built smaller ships :p
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Well first they need a Male Sathana and then a Female Sathana and;7 ;7 ;7 ;7
*runs out*
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Well, I don't think it is fair to include the Lucifer or any Sathani.
But I stil think that Shivans would win, but it would be close.
I don't think a player race is ever as technologically advanced as a mysterious, little-known enemy race.
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Originally posted by Bishop Gantry
Well first they need a Male Sathana and then a Female Sathana and;7 ;7 ;7 ;7
*runs out*
Oh no. God. The image.
* bangs head against wall *