So heres my idea for what might happen in FS3, Seeing at the end of FS2 with the Death of Alpha one, the GTVA is totally screwed. Not to mention the royal asshanding that just got delivered to them, its only a matter of time before the shivans attack and finish them off. So, what if in FS3 what happens is that we play the role of the Shivans instead of the GTVA? With all the mystery surrounding the shivans and their motives, this could be the wrapping up of loose ends for freespace. This would tell their side of the story, explain their motives, etc.
Discuss!
IMO the Shivan mystery should never be explained. At least, not in an obvious and stupid manner.I agree. I really don't think that it could be without screwing something in the story up.
"Pilots, we have the Shivan's master plan. The Shivans want to mine gas that's why they blew up Capella":lol:
Meeeeh.
TBH, I used to like the idea of a Shivan campaign until I played Tides of Darkness.
well... and then how the shivans get around those collapsed nodes? oh ****!
It would be more fun to learn more about the Shivans and FS3 was probably about that and fighting ships the size of planets or something and using ETAK to communicate with the Shivans. If Volition made FS3, we would probably learn more about the Shivans, the Earth would be reunited with the GTVA and help fight the Shivans, etc. I was hearing long ago that if they made FS3, it would conclude the FS series and we would know all or something like that.
It could be explained in a cryptic way at least, but saying it up front, like "Pilots, we have the Shivan's master plan. The Shivans want to mine gas that's why they blew up Capella lol"
So heres my idea for what might happen in FS3, Seeing at the end of FS2 with the Death of Alpha one, the GTVA is totally screwed. Not to mention the royal asshanding that just got delivered to them, its only a matter of time before the shivans attack and finish them off. So, what if in FS3 what happens is that we play the role of the Shivans instead of the GTVA? With all the mystery surrounding the shivans and their motives, this could be the wrapping up of loose ends for freespace. This would tell their side of the story, explain their motives, etc.
Discuss!
So what this campaign is not meant to answer Why, but rather to experience a new perspective. In the end, what i imagine this campaign to be is that it would still be about the GTVA. Instead of being about their struggle, its about their slow but eventual collapse. You will play as the shivans, but in the end nothing important would be revealed about the shivans, but merely that they are the destroyers. Much like using your metaphor of the Tsunami, you can observe a Tsunami, and not understand it. But still know that in the end, the Tsunami will destroy everything and anything that stands in its path.
... for all we know... Freespace 3 could have ended with the last survivors of humanity (maybe together with Vasudan survivors;)) boarding a sub-light sleeper ship trying to sneak away into deep space to find a planet to settle on in peace and never touch subspace again....didn't I just say that?
I though about making some kind of freespace continuation in which the shivans return for one last time and defeat the GTVA causing all Terrans and Vasudans to flee into another galaxy. Exiles in the very end...a temporary plug until the next installment.
I can't see any way the Shivans could not "have motivations". Even if they're robots, they'd be programmed to accomplish some goal, or to seek some sensation, etc. They're not like, say, a black hole, which is an unthinking but still potentially dangerous object.
... for all we know... Freespace 3 could have ended with the last survivors of humanity (maybe together with Vasudan survivors;)) boarding a sub-light sleeper ship trying to sneak away into deep space to find a planet to settle on in peace and never touch subspace again....didn't I just say that?I though about making some kind of freespace continuation in which the shivans return for one last time and defeat the GTVA causing all Terrans and Vasudans to flee into another galaxy. Exiles in the very end...a temporary plug until the next installment.
Some kind of "lets understand more about the Shivans and kick their butts like any other game villain" kinda ending however would be pretty much anti-Freespace in my opinion lol.
I can't emphasize that point enough... and tell me you don't agree with me on some level when i say that it's very likely that the only thing we would have found out in Freespace 3 is how screwed WE really are ;)
There are ways of delivering a campaign in which nothing is revealed about the protagonists.
What's the fun of a story if you can't learn about your enemy? Also, the Alliance can't destroy their enemy if they don't learn all they can about it.
Sadly i'm not convinced. While you make it sound quite easy... it would fall apart at the seams the moment you offer mission briefings... wingman commands... new orders/mission directives in flight from your "Shivan Boss" ;)......... of course you could do without any of that... but then you would end up limiting yourself gameplaywise way too much. I'm not convinced that it would be a good idea.... 1st, because it just might compromise the atmosphere that V has created with the Shivans anyways, despite you "trying" not to... and 2nd, because "trying not to" compromise that atmosphere, would instead end up compromising the atmosphere, gameplay and feel of the campaign that you are actually creating.
You are thinking too much in human terms. Humans have motivations... that doesn't mean everything else must "function" like us. We have a certain way of perceiving the world and by our own nature we are limited in the ways we can perceive the world. That doesn't mean the world, universe or its inhabitants are limited in the same way.
But that doesn't mean anything.
The Shivans could have far more cognitive power than Humans...
Ergh, this whole debate is making no sense anyway.
EDIT: Hmm, someone pulled a post from before mine. And Made it into a separate thread. :wtf:
I agree with this point. One can wax poetic about how the entire artistic and literary merit of the Shivans depends on that sense of utter mystery and lack of comprehensible motivations, or how explaining said motivations to any extent would ruin much of what makes the games great (which I also have a bit of contention with), but in the end, we're all a bunch of gamers playing through a story that :v: never got to bring to any sort of conclusion. (Ignore that said conclusion may have never existed in anyone's mind to begin with at the time of FS2's development.) :v: dropped tiny hints throughout both games about their ideas on the Shivans' nature, but in the end, FS2's devastatingly fantastic cliffhanger ending left us all dangling. And as much as I love the fact that said cliffhanger has allowed for so very many excellent fan-made concepts, at the same time, part of me is always going to remain exceedingly disappointed that we never got to learn how the story "truly" ended. Literary conceits can hang themselves if they come between me and obtaining the knowledge that I desire. :pQuoteOr in other words: The Shivans concept is very close to that of an unopened present. (except of course that a present is something positive while the Shivans would represent the opposite of the emotional spectrum). Unopened presents are tantalizing us with possibilities. The very nature of it is that we want to know what is inside. By opening it however, you turn it into something entirely else: An opened present.
No point in having a present if never opened in the end.
I agree with this point. One can wax poetic about how the entire artistic and literary merit of the Shivans depends on that sense of utter mystery and lack of comprehensible motivations, or how explaining said motivations to any extent would ruin much of what makes the games great (which I also have a bit of contention with), but in the end, we're all a bunch of gamers playing through a story that :v: never got to bring to any sort of conclusion. (Ignore that said conclusion may have never existed in anyone's mind to begin with at the time of FS2's development.) :v: dropped tiny hints throughout both games about their ideas on the Shivans' nature, but in the end, FS2's devastatingly fantastic cliffhanger ending left us all dangling. And as much as I love the fact that said cliffhanger has allowed for so very many excellent fan-made concepts, at the same time, part of me is always going to remain exceedingly disappointed that we never got to learn how the story "truly" ended. Literary conceits can hang themselves if they come between me and obtaining the knowledge that I desire. :pQuoteOr in other words: The Shivans concept is very close to that of an unopened present. (except of course that a present is something positive while the Shivans would represent the opposite of the emotional spectrum). Unopened presents are tantalizing us with possibilities. The very nature of it is that we want to know what is inside. By opening it however, you turn it into something entirely else: An opened present.
No point in having a present if never opened in the end.
And to be perfectly frank, I would view any sort of "humanity left all but extinct" ending as a rather large cop-out, since I tend to view such apocalyptic conclusions as being every bit as trite and cliche as the deus ex machina sort of "happily ever after." That isn't to say that quality examples of both don't exist, but I view those as being exceedingly rare and difficult to pull off well. Given the choice between any and all possibilities, what I'd most like to see is something that splits the difference. Have the GTVA face the Shivans again, at great cost as before, but in the end, have them come to some sort of capitulation or "agreement" with them. Not a full-fledged explanation...but a capitulation nonetheless. Let the GTVA establish the barest form of rudimentary contact, perhaps even via the huge dangling plot thread of Bosch. Don't explain away what drives the Shivans or makes them tick, but at least give us enough to understand just what they would want (if "want" is the right word) out of the GTVA in order for that threat of destruction to be mitigated once and for all. If pulled off properly, I feel like I'd enjoy the hell out of such a story.
Well how the story would have "truly" ended we will never know.When I say "truly," I mean, "how :v: would have ended things." I'm sure that the creative staff never had any more than a few vague ideas for a potential sequel (thus the "bigger problem" and "planet-sized ships" quotes), but I'd like to think that somewhere buried deep in the brain of someone like Mike Kulas is the concept of what :v: felt the Shivans were really all about. And if telling the whole story would have ruined the experience, we could have at least learned quite a bit more than we did.
And i guess you know by now that my issue with "exploring shivan motivations" is that it would not only hurt FSs atmosphere, but also go against the spirit of the earlier games.
It would never be a "true" ending either, it would only be what "person X" made up and well... if it explored the Shivan point of view then i would furthermore argue that what they made up has nothing to do with what Freespace was all about lol.
As for what we would have to do to "mitigate the Shivan threath once and for all" ? Now that's simple: Sleeper ship out into nowhere on sublight and never touch a subspace node again. That would fit 100% into canon as well:pI'd have to contend with this, at least to a point. I'll agree that the downfall of hubris was definitely a large element in both games, but I also feel like they were just as much, if not more so, about the potential inherent in humanity's adaptability and ingenuity. At the outset of FS1, the Terrans and Vasudans were mired in a pointless war of attrition, but the sudden appearance of the Shivans forced them to set aside their differences (for the most part) and form an alliance of necessity. Both species were pushed to the brink of extinction by the Lucifer, yet with some scientific breakthroughs and a big stroke of luck, they managed to hold on. They certainly suffered massive defeats in the destruction of Vasuda Prime and loss of Earth, but they survived, and that alliance of necessity blossomed into one of mutual trust. Fast-forward to FS2, and in the midst of internal strife, the Shivans appear again...yet this time, the GTVA could fight them on their own terms, thanks to the lessons of the past. Even after the seemingly-unstoppable Sathanas showed up, a plan was formulated and implemented, and the threat was eliminated in a relatively short period of time. Yes, there was a sense of impending doom when the Sathanas fleet appeared, but even then, there was a plan in place, and despite the utter shock that was the Capella supernova, it was implemented, and the GTVA was safe. (One could rightfully argue that the Sathanas fleet seemingly had no interest in destroying the GTVA in the first place, but that's beside the point for this discussion.) While this was certainly no victory, as one of the most populous systems in GTVA space was lost forever, the Capellan evacuation was carried out successfully, and the sealed nodes meant that the Shivan threat was held at bay, at least for the time being. And more importantly, the GTVA found the key to undo a large chunk of that near-defeat in FS1.
Oh yeah that wouldn't be convenient, but Freespace was never about convenience now was it ? Nope it was about Hubris and overconfidence and getting a huge punch in the face as a result.
Well how the story would have "truly" ended we will never know.When I say "truly," I mean, "how :v: would have ended things." I'm sure that the creative staff never had any more than a few vague ideas for a potential sequel (thus the "bigger problem" and "planet-sized ships" quotes), but I'd like to think that somewhere buried deep in the brain of someone like Mike Kulas is the concept of what :v: felt the Shivans were really all about. And if telling the whole story would have ruined the experience, we could have at least learned quite a bit more than we did.
And i guess you know by now that my issue with "exploring shivan motivations" is that it would not only hurt FSs atmosphere, but also go against the spirit of the earlier games.
It would never be a "true" ending either, it would only be what "person X" made up and well... if it explored the Shivan point of view then i would furthermore argue that what they made up has nothing to do with what Freespace was all about lol.
In the end, Terrans and Vasudans suffer massive defeats on several levels, and their collective pride does get leveled by the Shivans' actions, yet somehow, they manage to soldier on. In FS1, they barely escaped annihilation; in FS2, they seemingly sidestepped it, and gained a great gift in the process. I'd like to think that, going down the line, this progression of ingenuity, coupled with the lessons learned from those prideful mistakes of the past, would have enabled the GTVA to at least stave off, if not counter, whatever the Shivans might throw at them in the future.
Don't think it's interesting. It has the fourth-race cliche, the hybrid cliche, the homeworld cliche (why would a race adapted to zero gravity need a homeworld?), and the 'one weak point' thing.
It just doesn't break from the trappings of sci-fi space opera in the way previous Freespace did.
Don't think it's interesting. It has the fourth-race cliche, the hybrid cliche, the homeworld cliche (why would a race adapted to zero gravity need a homeworld?), and the 'one weak point' thing.
It just doesn't break from the trappings of sci-fi space opera in the way previous Freespace did.
2)lacking resources, Sol doesn't have any fun. I mean ships.Ｆｏｒ ａ ｓｈｏｒｔ ｍｏｍｅｎｔ ｔｈｅｒｅ Ｉ ｇｏｔ ａ ｓｔａｒ ｃｏｎｔｒｏｌ ２ ｏｒｚ ｖｉｂｅ
I've often wondered if it's better to think of the Shivans as white blood cells...
Right. And it's appealing on a storytelling level, because white blood cells aren't intelligent or 'human', but still carry out complex and seemingly directed actions on a wide scale.
Paraphrasing - "They hunted us down, tracked us through subspace"
One of the problems I have with that stop gap measure in regards to the GTVA is from the "ancients" dialogue.I can fix that with only a little bit of effort actually.
Paraphrasing - "They hunted us down, tracked us through subspace" "No matter how many systems we ran to each was destroyed till we only had one left" "they came for us".
The Shivans had no bones about finding, pursueing and exterminating any threat.
I'm sorry but 80 Saths used intelligently will wipe out just about anyone less than Culture or SG Ancients level... Borg is iffy... IMHO
GTVA was NOT a true consideration to that fleet, they were a "hinderance'.
it kind of plays ok into they sent one of their best ships and it was destroyed...
it kind of plays ok into they sent one of their best ships and it was destroyed...you missed my post completely.QuoteErhm excuse me... but even if what we saw of the Shivans in FS2 is all they have, the Luci is utterly insignificant.
in effect the Shivans had nothing to fear from the Ancients because the Ancients had never managed a significant victory against them..... while on the other hand the GTVA handed them several defeats including destroying one of their capital ships well above and beyond the Lucifer.it's an escalation of the conflict and each time the GTVA managed to defeat them... not only defeat but actually counterattack no matter how ineffective or effective depending on how you want to write in the destruction of those Shivan mystery devices during the final SOC mission in FS2.
Right, except that the destruction of the devices in 'Into the Lion's Den' can't possibly be part of the reason the Shivans 'withdrew' because the player might very well not destroy them.
this taken in context could explain why they decided to walk away from the conflict.... especially if they had no idea what they were dealing with and had never lost before.
*snip*
And now just consider the first invasion... the Lucifer Fleet for another moment... a threath that the GTVA was actually able to match... did the Shivans seem even remotely concerned with losses or self preservation or an "avoidance" of conflict, while you pretty much completely took the Lucis supporting fleet apart ?
Right, except that the destruction of the devices in 'Into the Lion's Den' can't possibly be part of the reason the Shivans 'withdrew' because the player might very well not destroy them.absolutely they can.... whether the player decided to play the missions or not isn't at the core of the issue much like the story never happened if the player didn't play the game.
Yeah... sure... they were so afraid of the "Mosquito" that is the GTVA that they stopped their uncoordinated swatting and ran away from it in fear for their lifes.don't work within the limited framework of a human response..... what's more that gnat refuses to die and has become potentially quite destructive.
The Shivans are both the destroyer and the preserver; they are an imperfect tool, because all that they preserve they must eventually destroy. We know of no other means of faster-than-light travel than the use of subspace. There is no reason to think that any is possible. All or nearly all races will enter subspace and travel beyond their home systems. The conclusion presented in the FS1 ending that they preserve those not yet able to defend themselves by eliminating the others who could reach them is thus true, but presents a grossly flawed system.your getting all of your information 2nd hand through the ancients....... none of this comes from the Shivans.
Quote from: General BattutaRight, except that the destruction of the devices in 'Into the Lion's Den' can't possibly be part of the reason the Shivans 'withdrew' because the player might very well not destroy them.absolutely they can.... whether the player decided to play the missions or not isn't at the core of the issue much like the story never happened if the player didn't play the game.
the SOC didn't start and finish with the player the SOC is an entity within the storyline and in that storyline they accomplished a mission invading the Shivan territory... go with symbolic .... the GTVA actually invaded Shivan space... much like the Doolittle raid during WWII bombed japan.... how effective it was isn't the point.
the Shivan response to close off access to them.
Except that destroying those things is not necessary to complete the missionas mentioned and you quoted even.
go with symbolic .... the GTVA actually invaded Shivan space... much like the Doolittle raid during WWII bombed japan.... how effective it was isn't the point.even if you don't like the idea of the devices being destroyed it's of no consequence... personally I'm looking for credible explanations.
*headdesk* How many times have we had this debate in the past ten years?if you don't like the discussion....don't get me wrong I don't really care, it's a discussion about possibilities in regards to a story were all interested in but if your so frustrated then perhaps you'd be better off not being a part of it.
You can come up with whatever you want to justify your theory for your campaign.
you have to recognize that everything any of us come up with is total wankery, and no theory has any precedence over any other.almost in agreement.
The Shivans may not, probably don't in fact, have any conception of the depth to which Terran-Vasudan power runs. They simply had no way to accumulate such knowledge in FS2monitored communications over time, stolen data from destroyed ships, captured data from planets they attacked would all seem feasible although I prefer them being ignorant of the GTVA.
the only real conclusion along those lines is that Bosch feed them a gigantic load of crap involving a Terran-Vasudan fleet many hundreds of times more powerful than it actually was backed by enough Colossi to make even 80 Sathanas juggernauts worry.worry is at issue and what caused it if it was such.
*snip*
The amount of unsupported conjecture presented as fact in this post is luverly.
The Shivans may not, probably don't in fact, have any conception of the depth to which Terran-Vasudan power runs. They simply had no way to accumulate such knowledge in FS2, except through Aken Bosch, and given what they did the only real conclusion along those lines is that Bosch feed them a gigantic load of crap involving a Terran-Vasudan fleet many hundreds of times more powerful than it actually was backed by enough Colossi to make even 80 Sathanas juggernauts worry. (Assuming they even needed the Colossus to do so, which they probably did not. Massed destroyer/corvette assault will probably work just as well.)
They were the first race to understand subspace. Then the Next then the Vasudans then Humanity.
The question is, NGTM-1R, whether they do any of those things consciously. An argument might be made that they're very sophisticated non-sophonts, or that they possess a very different kind of intelligence from our own individualistic cognition. (Hive minds are trite, but there are other alternatives.)
wow... guess you kinda missed what my argument in this discussion actually was when you happily attack my "facts".
As for Bosh feeding the Shivans propaganda about the "might" of the GTVA (and them actually understanding him and also giving a s***)... jolly me, did you mention "unsupported conjecture" there ? ;)
The question is, NGTM-1R, whether they do any of those things consciously. An argument might be made that they're very sophisticated non-sophonts, or that they possess a very different kind of intelligence from our own individualistic cognition. (Hive minds are trite, but there are other alternatives.)
The fact they are obviously tool-using (very sophisticated tools too) tends to wreck a nonsentient Shivan argument.
In a greater sense, warfare as the universal langauge comes into play. Assuming the Shivans are competent, and all signs on that point to yes, what they will do is not dictated by how they think but by what they are capable of. So it doesn't really matter to us what kind of intelligence they have.
wow... guess you kinda missed what my argument in this discussion actually was when you happily attack my "facts".
As for Bosh feeding the Shivans propaganda about the "might" of the GTVA (and them actually understanding him and also giving a s***)... jolly me, did you mention "unsupported conjecture" there ? ;)
's supported conjecture. Basically, what could Bosch have told them that would result in the course of action the Shivans took? Either he lied to them, or explained this was all a horrible mistake perpetrated by the crew of the NTC Trinity (and the Shivans know apologizing is never going to be enough).
And what your discussion is about is meaningless when you have the wrong facts. Doesn't matter what your conclusions are, you have to support them correctly.
General Battuta presented us with a unique perspective, there is nothing wrong to explore that perspective and see where its implications may lead -
and which "facts" are "right" and "wrong" is indeed a matter of perspective as well... and where the Shivans are concerned they are entirely a matter of premises based on assumptions.
Unless you want to imply that you "perspective" is the only one that is right - then there are no right or wrong facts, only facts that are right or wrong for a certain way of looking at things. lol.
Unfortunately, fictional beauty must bow to supportable fact. Present to me a factual method by which nonsentients can use tools as sophisicated as spacecraft, and we will talk.
:snickers: ... well... technically it remains to be seen wether humanity is actually "sentient"
You seem to take a lot for granted, yet quite arbitrarily decide what kind of "fictional speculation" is worthy in your eyes and which not, which of course is quite ironic considering the ongoing philosophical debates about the nature of our own conscience and free will *etc etc etc blah blah insert bull**** here*
Frankly... i find it quite amusing that one would impose the limits of our existence on fictional alien life,
Just looking at how human life evolved on earth or even just at how our societies evolved in a comparably utterly insignificant couple of thousand years... i believe kinda demonstrates just how huge a leap of faith it would be to assume the Shivans might still really "tick as we do" somehow.
:snickers: ... well... technically it remains to be seen wether humanity is actually "sentient"
...you are joking, right? Either you're really, really good at the depth of your ability to bull**** and have finally slipped up, or you're extremely igorant and have just been lucky until now.
Sentient is a fancy word for self-aware. We think, and we think about thinking, therefore we are sentient. Nobody is going to challenge that assertion and be taken seriously, least of all you.
I may be wrong but I've seen resistance to any potential story..... lol it's nice to see truer words rarely get spoken given the discussion that's gone on since my last post.
the Shivan race as a whole may be a body with a mind capable of overall guidance and thought, but individual ships may be no more subject to conscious control than our own individual white cells are to the brain.this idea holds potential.
alien intelligence or otherwise wouldn't matter if the GTVA was able to get it's attention it would be at the beings cost and peace would be like a human making friends with brain cancer in the hopes of what?.... that it stops spreading?..... again impossible.
By destroying the Shivan 'body' the GTVA might destroy themselves. Whatever function the Shivan entity served would be left vacant.
It might come down to a choice between the destruction of the Shivans, and chaos - or an 'alliance', in which the GTVA learned to live in the cracks of the Shivan ecosystem, giving up the hubris of 'humanity ascendant' in favor of a sustainable place in the galactic ecology.
Bosch's ETAK project could be the key to the choice. It might be used as a way to fend off Shivan 'antibodies' - just as some diseases today can masquerade as 'safe' cells and avoid destruction - and thereby allow the GTVA to annihilate the Shivans.
Or, it could be used to protect the GTVA from Shivan attack in order for the Terrans and Vasudans to live quietly and peacefully in the nooks and crannies of the Shivan galaxy.
But Still People Remember: The Shivans are a race of war. (meaning they are War Freaks.....Hate Peace Love War :hopping:)
Let the Shivans Rise againts the Forerunners (Halo 3) SHIVANS RULE FORERUNNERS SUCK
But Still People Remember: The Shivans are a race of war. (meaning they are War Freaks.....Hate Peace Love Warthat is limited to the experience and hasn't been established.
Oh man, (should it ever come) Freespace 3 is never, ever going to live up to the expectations of the fanbase.many of the theory's won't change what must happen..... the theory that the GTVA is a disease leaves little option for the Shivans as they must destroy it until the disease itself changes which is up to the GTVA who have no idea how they must change.
You guys have given this so much thought and developed such high level theories...
it would be pretty popcorn if all that was required was to be more eco friendly ......
I think it would bring the end of humans, not the Shivans. As have been said before: this is a tale of humanity's overconfidence, and as such it should end bad.the endings have always been a little negative but humanity has grown & prospered with each episode.
If you look at the endings of fs1 and 2 you can see that there are no happy ends. 1st -> Earth is lost, maybe forever cut off the rest of GTA, Vasuda Prime destroyed, billions of people dead. 2nd -> billions dead, another billions left with WTF feeling, and everyone alive in fear: What will happen now? Will they return? Will they bring cookies?!Where are you getting "billions dead" from FS2? Capella had only 250 million or so inhabitants, and we're led to believe that the vast majority of them managed to evacuate safely before the supernova. And the entirety of the NTF rebellion and Shivan incursion couldn't have generated more than one or two million casualties at the very worst. Compared to what happened in FS1, the GTVA got off scot free all things considered.
Where are you getting "billions dead" from FS2? Capella had only 250 million or so inhabitants, and we're led to believe that the vast majority of them managed to evacuate safely before the supernova. And the entirety of the NTF rebellion and Shivan incursion couldn't have generated more than one or two million casualties at the very worst. Compared to what happened in FS1, the GTVA got off scot free all things considered.
Yes, but in FS2, the Shivans weren't trying to completely annihilate Terran and Vasudan civilization, which I for one would view as a very marked improvement. :pWhere are you getting "billions dead" from FS2? Capella had only 250 million or so inhabitants, and we're led to believe that the vast majority of them managed to evacuate safely before the supernova. And the entirety of the NTF rebellion and Shivan incursion couldn't have generated more than one or two million casualties at the very worst. Compared to what happened in FS1, the GTVA got off scot free all things considered.
Yet in FS1 they actually defeated the Shivan fleet (at great loss) while in Freespace 2 it was made painfully clear just how outclassed the GTVA military really is.
Yes, but in FS2, the Shivans weren't trying to completely annihilate Terran and Vasudan civilization, which I for one would view as a very marked improvement. :p
The Shivans MIGHT have sophisticated Sathanas factory in some unexplored region deep inside a nebula for all we know. So a few Sathanas might only be a minuscule loss to them.They MIGHT actually be blue, and it's just that EVERYONE is colorblind (except Command from JAD).
Um. The shockwave destroys planets.
Eh? The initial shockwave toasted them. Then the second shockwave left absolutely nothing left of their smoking hulks.Um. The shockwave destroys planets.
This is true. However, the shockwave also failed to outright destroy a Deimos and a Moloch. They were (apparently) not in very good shape, but they survived it. A Sathanas is considerably more durable.
Eh? The initial shockwave toasted them. Then the second shockwave left absolutely nothing left of their smoking hulks.
A Sathanas is not going to survive it.
So assuming that the first shockwave is, in fact, the supernova, they survived it. Damaged badly, but survived.This however.
You have to blow a ship to pieces to stop it in FS. That's a given. We've speculated at length on the nature of their construction such that this is true, but even when the Phoencia got whacked by multiple BFReds in Bear Baiting, and ended up at ridiculously low integrity remaining, it took only a quarter crew casualities. If there is a ship left at all, there are crew left alive.
The Deimos and Moloch went dark, suggesting they were very badly damaged, and systemically rather than point damage in a way that's not common on FS ships, but their hulls were still intact and hence major systems still probably repairable.
Maybe, but you forget one thing. The secondary blast that followed the initial shockwave didn't give them any time to repair themselves. You saw it yourself: when the second blast went off, the PLANETS were destroyed, and it came a matter of moments after the initial wave.
I don't think I'd call those hulls intact. They looked fused, melted, and utterly unrecoverable. In fact, they looked destroyed past the point of being blown apart. At least when you blow up some chunks might come out fairly intact. These guys were uniformly cooked.
You don't necessarily have to blow a ship to pieces; you have to render it unsuitable for life. Usually you can do that in one of two ways, A: like you said, blow it to pieces, or B: Destroy the life-support. After all, a ship is only as good as the one (or ones) flying it, so if they're dead, the ship is dead, and the crippling nature of the shockwave probably killed them just by the loss of life-support.
You're confusing things, NGTM-1R. The second blast was the planet-cracker. The first blast didn't crack the planets any more than it did the ships - just cooked them.
The last shockwave (indeed, both, but the first one appears to expand vertically as well) seems planar, however. I am probably wrong, but it looks like it. Which means that things that were above or below the star might just be fused and melted as opposed to disintegrated.
Okay, Alyx Vance is not 'some hot chick.'
Okay, Alyx Vance is not 'some hot chick.'
Now why do you have to derail this thread? :)
Maybe not hot in looks but any chick that wields a gun and does stuff like that has got to have SOME sort of hotness to her. Dang, I'm waiting on a lot of thirds right now...FS3, HL2:Ep 3....
So...they're playing a god-like role in the universe?
Or maybe what Petrach said in the cutscene that followed the supernova was what Volition was intending for us to take it as. "What if they are exiles like we are searching for a way back home, and the destruction of a star is a bridge back to their universe?" Something like that. Why would Volition put that in there if it means nothing?
That wouldn't be fun...
Yeah, I remember the mention of "ships the size of planets" and "symptoms of a bigger problem" comments. I brought them up in a thread one time. I imagine you would go inside these huge ships. Maybe "ships the size of planets" is just an exaggeration meaning very large ships like Gargant size.
I guess the real reason Volition put those hints in about what the Shivans are and their origins is not because that is really what the Shivans are supposed to be, but to keep you guessing. That is perhaps why they seem not to make much sense if you combine every hint together and say they are all that. Maybe only some of the hints are true, like Bosch saying they are very old (what if there had been countless races ...... each annihilated by the Shivans) and the Ancients believing they are from subspace, and the tech database saying they were likely constructed by another entity. When you hear the word "entity" it could make you think they were created by some supernatural force, like how they are portrayed in BP, though it probably means another race created them since FS is purely sci-fi.