Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: LtNarol on March 27, 2002, 07:31:09 pm
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ok, i was thinking, since i was playing around with this idea, what you guys think: A new supership in Act VI of ITN (4th 158th campaign, also known as Renegade) that mounts a temporal weapon capable of erasing objects from history, from a small fighter to an entire civilization. The ship will also have the ability to restore changes done by it as all changes it creates are stored with exacting detail in its computer banks (shielded from the effect of the temporal weapon).
Why do this? It could provide the link between all fs2 campaigns, it can explain AP, saying that the shivans were erased. It can explain different technologies and different paths of different campaigns as "a alternate future". Say an asteriod that would have destroyed a transport carrying so and so was erased, now that person lives and the future is altered.
For those of you looking at me like :wtf:, i got this idea after seeing yet another rerun of Voyager, the "year of hell". So, how many of you out there would support something like this? Since it would provide a means to tie all fs2 campaigns together.
EDIT: just to clarify, this is not an attempt by me to take over other people's campaigns, i just thought it would be a good way to throw a :ha: in the faces of timeline issues, a convenient way to solve all timeline problems.
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crazy indeed,indeed.
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This belongs in Gen FS...... I think.
Or perhaps last tuesday.
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All ITN work and too much Voyager make Narol a scary boy.
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the idea was to bridge all the campaigns so we'd stop worrying about timeline problems and conflicts.
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Personally, I prefer the trousers of time.....
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Meh, hmm..I don't like the sound of it..it makes everything else deriviative to ITN, and not everyone would agree to that.
:(
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no, not the case. The model will be publicly available when it is ready, so will the new beam effect and a list of sexps and their set up to create the "erased" effect. This way, anyone who wishes to use the model for a campaign can. It'll play a role in the 158th, but it wont be exclusively 158th.
EDIT: I may need some outside help to pull this off though, im not that good in Truespace for turreting and rotating subobjects.
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Originally posted by Alikchi
Meh, hmm..I don't like the sound of it..it makes everything else deriviative to ITN, and not everyone would agree to that.
:(
Well, if you set it up to be that the ship was actually created in a timeline where no campaign was set, say where a cataclysmic event wiped out all of the Humans and Vasudans except for that ship and they were trying to return the universe to immediately before the event, but in a way that the event wouldn't happen....
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revised idea for this ship:
1. cratch ITN Act VI: Renegade
2. use Greywolf's idea of some gigantic catastrophe severely crippling the GTVA, the GTVA decides to screw with the timeline in order to restore its old glory. So it begins...
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Goody. More work.
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more for me and Vadar_1, not you, i will use ships from different campaigns, most of the work will be fredding which i will do. The rest of the new stuff will be the beam and its effects stuff, which Vadar_1 is working on.
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The problem with this is that it would ruin the storylines in most cases. Suppose you had to escort a destroyer and you failed - enemy bombers blew it up, then all they have to do is alter the timeline so that it never got blown up, so you would win the mission anyway.
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how are you gonna tie in the chicken one?
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Originally posted by CP5670
The problem with this is that it would ruin the storylines in most cases. Suppose you had to escort a destroyer and you failed - enemy bombers blew it up, then all they have to do is alter the timeline so that it never got blown up, so you would win the mission anyway.
Not if you're against it, trying to kill the next colossus in a bomber with a few wingmen. It would provide an interesting campaign in my opinion and would provide an "explanation" to all the different campaigns: different paths, each created by a different change in history. The campaign could be set either before or after the other campaigns. But apparently half those who have voted think im on spacecrack....
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Well, if you are on the bombing team, then even if you destroy the enemy ship, they could just bring it back alive. :p The draining of resources due to war would have no meaning anymore. Or if the ship belongs to a faction that does have the technology, the GTVA should just send its own destroyer against the enemy. (this is the most plausible storyline progression) Even if their ship dies, they could simply revive it. :p
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:devilidea
If you could somehow limit the uses of such a device, then it might have...possiblities. Remember in "The Year of Hell" they calculated the changes in the timeline extensively before initating a "temporal incursion".
You could bring back something like the Colossus because it has relatively local impact on the timeline, but if you tried to save Capella...well, a star generates massive gravitational forces, these forces in turn affect everthing around them for many trillions of miles, so the act of restoring Capella might affect a change that the device never needs to be built and since it doesn't exist to save Capella, the Star explodes again, on and on, in a vicious repeating loop.
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What's wrong with the current thing? Who cares if Derelict and Unholy Alliance (Just random names) don't match up? We can't generate a standardized post FS2 timeline for much the sme reason as we can't make FS3 - hell, exactly the same reason, plus more - we couldn't get universal agreement. Plus, I play campaigns and missions for the fun of a new campaign/mission, not to find out what happened after Capella. If :v: tells us, then I'll believe it.
As for a temporal ship, I've always thought FS2 was good because it refused to delve into changing the past. Changing the past is too good for any faction because it can guarantee that they will win. That's it. Hence, no story, no conflict, no campaign.
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Now that's what I call a balanced poll. ;)
I like the idea. Good luck implementing it, though - and fitting it all in the tables. :D
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Something thats really scary is I'm working for this guy!
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Originally posted by Setekh
Now that's what I call a balanced poll. ;)
:lol: :lol:
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Originally posted by hotsnoj
Something thats really scary is I'm working for this guy!
You don't have to tell me that :rolleyes:
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heh, such support im getting from the 158th staff...the idea of the ship is that it cant bring itself back, your first mission is to destroy the Arcadia and Ganymede involved in its contruction (maybe use the polaris instead). The who thing is about a war to preserve the past against the lunatics (kinda like me) who try to change it "for the good of mankind". If the destroyer dies (at the end it should) then its over, if not, it'll go to a cutscene of some campaign that ends in mass destruction.
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Originally posted by Black Wolf
What's wrong with the current thing? Who cares if Derelict and Unholy Alliance (Just random names) don't match up? We can't generate a standardized post FS2 timeline for much the sme reason as we can't make FS3 - hell, exactly the same reason, plus more - we couldn't get universal agreement. Plus, I play campaigns and missions for the fun of a new campaign/mission, not to find out what happened after Capella. If :v: tells us, then I'll believe it.
As for a temporal ship, I've always thought FS2 was good because it refused to delve into changing the past. Changing the past is too good for any faction because it can guarantee that they will win. That's it. Hence, no story, no conflict, no campaign.
:yes: :yes: :yes:
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well keep in mind that the results wont be so clean or predictable, they will find that they cant calculate all the effects of an incursion like they did in Voyager, and thus they wont know what a incursion would do before its done, atleast not all of its effects. The weapon will be very unpredictable in terms of what it produces
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What if the enemy gets the weapon and kills Alpha 1 with it? :D :ha:
Goodbye Earth, Goodbye Collussus, Goodbye Capella, etc.
Whatever floats your boat Narol!
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Why use a weapon that can destroy the user...:confused:
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Originally posted by LtNarol
well keep in mind that the results wont be so clean or predictable, they will find that they cant calculate all the effects of an incursion like they did in Voyager, and thus they wont know what a incursion would do before its done, atleast not all of its effects. The weapon will be very unpredictable in terms of what it produces
Yeah, but if this ship is sealed from changes in time, they have infinite time do make these changes which, for the outside world at least, take zero time. ie, infinite tries, no time limit. Eventually they'll get it right.
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Originally posted by Black Wolf
Yeah, but if this ship is sealed from changes in time, they have infinite time do make these changes which, for the outside world at least, take zero time. ie, infinite tries, no time limit. Eventually they'll get it right.
Its just an idea at this point, i havent figured out all the details, much less the logistics, but i'll find a way to prevent what you're saying. I would also appreciate it if i could get the opinions of the other project leaders, let me know what you guys think.
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Originally posted by Bishop Gantry
Why use a weapon that can destroy the user...:confused:
Well, you can kill yourself by accidentally flying in front of a friendly BFGreen from the Collussus. You could get yourself killed by accidentally flying in front of the time weapon too.
This talk about time is making my head spin. I'm getting very :confused:
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Yes but flying into an BFGreen is a controlled action...
messing up the time continium with a chronoweapon isnt... you accidently wipe out your chrono weapon when its built you cease to exsist... if you still manages to survive whiping out yourself from history you cant fix it because if you fix it you could never have known you whiped out yourself to begin with but still you never exsisted because you whiped out your chronoweapon the only problem is if you whiped out yourself you couldnt have know you exsisted because the chrono weapon was already destryed before it was built thus you couldnt have know of its exsitance...
and no trekkietechni babble can gte you out of this dilemma...
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Originally posted by Bishop Gantry
Yes but flying into an BFGreen is a controlled action...
messing up the time continium with a chronoweapon isnt... you accidently wipe out your chrono weapon when its built you cease to exsist... if you still manages to survive whiping out yourself from history you cant fix it because if you fix it you could never have known you whiped out yourself to begin with but still you never exsisted because you whiped out your chronoweapon the only problem is if you whiped out yourself you couldnt have know you exsisted because the chrono weapon was already destryed before it was built thus you couldnt have know of its exsitance...
and no trekkietechni babble can gte you out of this dilemma...
you're making no sense, if the chronoweapon is erased from time, then all the changes it made would never have happened.
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Well wada ya know you got the point...:D
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Originally posted by Bishop Gantry
Well wada ya know you got the point...:D
???you lost me there, i hadn't reallized you had a point. More useful comments please.
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You've been watching Voyager reruns, haven't you.
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Narol................ are you taking any medicines???? :D
Really, I don't see the need to tie all the campaigns because it wouldn't be that amazing... the campaigns are made to express its creators view point o what should happen next, they are made for your own fun to have a new and different story...
If you want to implement that time device in your campaign do it so, making your campaign unique by its own way (of course it requires a lot of complexity...)
Btw, look at it by this way: if the GTVA makes that weapon they can alter EVERYTHING, and so they could prevent catastrophes like capella and even Sol Subspace node... that would make no sense... the GTVA would ALWAYS win...
There you go!! :)
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Originally posted by Black Wolf
Yeah, but if this ship is sealed from changes in time, they have infinite time do make these changes which, for the outside world at least, take zero time. ie, infinite tries, no time limit. Eventually they'll get it right.
Hence the "Replay Mission" button in Freespace 2. :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Raven2001
Btw, look at it by this way: if the GTVA makes that weapon they can alter EVERYTHING, and so they could prevent catastrophes like capella and even Sol Subspace node... that would make no sense... the GTVA would ALWAYS win...
There you go!! :)
Yes, but getting it to work is a shot in the dark. They have no idea what the effect will be.....
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Originally posted by GalacticEmperor
Hence the "Replay Mission" button in Freespace 2. :rolleyes:
Ah ha! It's already been done! And all in complete secret too. :D
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Originally posted by Styxx
:lol: :lol:
Well, not anymore...
So, what have we concluded, guys? That Command has had a temporal reversal device all along, to allow the replaying of failed missions? :D
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Originally posted by Setekh
Well, not anymore...
So, what have we concluded, guys? That Command has had a temporal reversal device all along, to allow the replaying of failed missions? :D
Actually, the entire thing was a hoax. The entire Great War was fought with nothing but games installed on personal computers...these games were given additional programming that caused the players of them to actually believe they were pilots and to form 'squads' that battled for control of 'nodes'.
It's true, I tell you!
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Oh, I see...
Well, I can't wait for 2367, then...
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When we all find out it was a practical joke played on us by Command? :D
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When Command says to us, "Ho ho ho, welcome to the GTVA, Alpha 1! So, had any combat training?" ;)
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The idea of altering the course of time is deeply and inherently illogical on he most fundamental of levels. Going back into the past will not change the past, only make the time traveller part of the past.
"But what if I go back in time and assassinate Hitler? Won't that alter the course of history?"
We are all familiar with the paradox of going back in time to alter the course of history: If one were able to travel back in time, and succeeded in assassinating Hitler, suddenly the future would be one that never had a Hitler in its past. But then there would not be a reason for the time traveller to have gone back in time in the first place, so Hitler wouldn't have been assassinated by the time traveller, so he would have come to power, so the time traveller would have gone back to kill him, so he wouldn't have come to power... and so on and so on ad infinitum.
The reason this paradox exists is because the problem is based on flawed assumptions. In reality, going back in time would not alter the course of history at all. The going back and appearing at some point in the past would be precisely part of the series of events leading up to the going back. Whatever the time traveller might do in the past is part of the flow of history which leads up to his travelling. The true timeline would actually be like this:
At some point in history, this time traveller guy shows up out of nowhere, walks around a bit and does stuff that affects the subsequent course of history, and eventually disappears again. History plods ever onwards, until one day this guy is born who grows up to invent time travel. He tests his time machine, disappears for a while,and then reappears at the temporal coordinates he set into the machine before disappearing. History plods ever onwards.
You see, what he did in the past is the past, by definition the series of events which leads up to the present. The past he goes back to is the very past which leads up to his present moment in which he turns on the time machine. Whatever he might do to try to kill Hitler while in the past is necessarily part of that series of events which lead up to Hitler's rise to power, and as such only contribute to Hitler's ascension, rather than prevent it.
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Originally posted by Sesquipedalian
The idea of altering the course of time is deeply and inherently illogical on he most fundamental of levels. Going back into the past will not change the past, only make the time traveller part of the past.
"But what if I go back in time and assassinate Hitler? Won't that alter the course of history?"
We are all familiar with the paradox of going back in time to alter the course of history: If one were able to travel back in time, and succeeded in assassinating Hitler, suddenly the future would be one that never had a Hitler in its past. But then there would not be a reason for the time traveller to have gone back in time in the first place, so Hitler wouldn't have been assassinated by the time traveller, so he would have come to power, so the time traveller would have gone back to kill him, so he wouldn't have come to power... and so on and so on ad infinitum.
The reason this paradox exists is because the problem is based on flawed assumptions. In reality, going back in time would not alter the course of history at all. The going back and appearing at some point in the past would be precisely part of the series of events leading up to the going back. Whatever the time traveller might do in the past is part of the flow of history which leads up to his travelling. The true timeline would actually be like this:
At some point in history, this time traveller guy shows up out of nowhere, walks around a bit and does stuff that affects the subsequent course of history, and eventually disappears again. History plods ever onwards, until one day this guy is born who grows up to invent time travel. He tests his time machine, disappears for a while,and then reappears at the temporal coordinates he set into the machine before disappearing. History plods ever onwards.
You see, what he did in the past is the past, by definition the series of events which leads up to the present. The past he goes back to is the very past which leads up to his present moment in which he turns on the time machine. Whatever he might do to try to kill Hitler while in the past is necessarily part of that series of events which lead up to Hitler's rise to power, and as such only contribute to Hitler's ascension, rather than prevent it.
This isnt about time travel buddy, its about completely erasing something from the timeline, in otherwords, nothing is destroyed, it simply never existed. :nod: read the original post again.
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This isnt about time travel buddy, its about completely erasing something from the timeline, in otherwords, nothing is destroyed, it simply never existed. read the original post again.
The only problem with this is if you erased it you couldnt have known it exsisted, thus you failed to erase it from time because if you succeded in doing so you would never know it since its been erased the paradox in this is your doomed to fail if you know about it because if you succeded you couldnt have known what to erase in the first place thus you will fail every ettempt at change history or erase it...
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Originally posted by Bishop Gantry
The only problem with this is if you erased it you couldnt have known it exsisted, thus you failed to erase it from time because if you succeded in doing so you would never know it since its been erased the paradox in this is your doomed to fail if you know about it because if you succeded you couldnt have known what to erase in the first place thus you will fail every ettempt at change history or erase it...
in that case the chronoweapon will be shielded from its effects, guys, im not worried about technicalities right now, i want the opinions of other campaign staff so i know if i should pursue it or not. Dont give me anymore of this BS yall are coming up with, theres a way around all of it.
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Well, the poll should give you the answer, which basically appears to be: Messing with FS timeline is bad, m'kay.
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Yeah Startrek tecnhobabble:doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh:
Its not protected from the destructive chronoweapons when its built or later it will only be so when its deployed and that still makes it vunerable to wipe itself out... not to mention every scientist and person behind the conscrution of it not to mention if any disurbances of the family tree is changed the slightest the chrono ship will never created or as in Startrek where "Q" stops the original biomass that will create life on earth so humans never exsisted in the first place...
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ok, read what i wrote:
1. I'm looking for opinions of campaign staffs.
2. FORGET THE BS FOR NOW, TECHNICALITIES CAN WAIT
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Originally posted by LtNarol
Dont give me anymore of this BS yall are coming up with, theres a way around all of it.
Well, actually, no there isn't. This "B.S." is irrefutable logic ultimately based on four necessarily true statements* and the assumption that the past course of history affects the present, and as such cannot be worked around, save by Trek-like silliness or the rejection of the principle of cause and effect (which would make "changing history" meaningless, anyway).
But anyway, have fun, LtNarol. ;)
*
1) Anything that happens, happens.
2) Anything that has happend, has happened
3) Anything that will happen, will happen.
4) Anything that causes something else to happen, causes that something else to happen.
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Originally posted by Sesquipedalian
...or the rejection of the principle of cause and effect (which would make "changing history" meaningless, anyway).
You make a false assumption. Causality does not always flow cause->effect. Quantum effects can have the cause follow the effect. Since causality is symmetric in this way, you cannot use it as a basis for arguing the impossibility of 'changing history'.
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Why is it like this? Why isn't everything different? :nervous:
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Still, it would not really work out correctly due to all kinds of paradoxes that would come up. As I said earlier, the infinite event-based universe idea is the only way to circumvent this.
Unfortunately the "BS" is necessary to consider here, because the legitimacy of the whole idea depends on that part working out. ;)
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Originally posted by CP5670
Still, it would not really work out correctly due to all kinds of paradoxes that would come up. As I said earlier, the infinite event-based universe idea is the only way to circumvent this.
Unfortunately the "BS" is necessary to consider here, because the legitimacy of the whole idea depends on that part working out. ;)
The weapon will be unpredictable, thats the whole point, they will end up creating situations they didnt intend. Thats what makes the thing so perfect for linking campaigns since not all campaigns end well for the GTVA.
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At the end of the day, though, surely you're just stating that parallel timelines / unvierses can exist?
In which case, is there a need for this, seeing as it's already possible and even likely? the other thing is that trying to justify every single campaign with this would be more tenous, than simply accepting they are different peoples views on the future of the FS universe.
Personally, I think it would be a really bad idea to try and incorporate this ship into every single campaign to justify the storyline RE other campaigns. It's fair enough for your own campaign, but not in every one.
I don't want to have to justify the Reciprocity storyline with a time-changing ship, becuase it's different from MT, or BWO, or OTT, etc. I like having my own take on things :)
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Originally posted by mikhael
You make a false assumption. Causality does not always flow cause->effect. Quantum effects can have the cause follow the effect. Since causality is symmetric in this way, you cannot use it as a basis for arguing the impossibility of 'changing history'.
Ah, but I did not, in fact, restrict myself to a forward moving timeline for the principle of causality in my statements. :wink: The temporal direction of a cause-effect relationship makes no difference to my argument, so long as the relationship exists. In fact, temporally retrograde cause-effect relationships are explicitly part of my argument: the time traveller's actions in 2367 A.D. cause the effects in 1924 when he shows up on his futile mission to assassinate Hitler.
The actual meaning of my statement that the rejection of the principle of cause and effect would make "changing history" meaningless is that without this principle, whether of forward or retrograde action through time, trying to change the course of history (or the 4-dimensional shape of things, for physicists like you, mikhael :D) by any action is a futile exercise, since whatever one's actions might be, they have no effect on anything else and thus change nothing.
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Originally posted by Sesquipedalian
...The actual meaning of my statement that the rejection of the principle of cause and effect would make "changing history" meaningless is that without this principle, whether of forward or retrograde action through time, trying to change the course of history (or the 4-dimensional shape of things, for physicists like you, mikhael :D) by any action is a futile exercise, since whatever one's actions might be, they have no effect on anything else and thus change nothing.
If actions have no effect, then you deny causality at its basis. The root of causality is that things happen, and thus cause other things to happen. Any action in the past would effect all that comes after it. The meaning of 'after', of course, is left to the reader to discern.
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Originally posted by mikhael
If actions have no effect, then you deny causality at its basis. The root of causality is that things happen, and thus cause other things to happen. Any action in the past would effect all that comes after it. The meaning of 'after', of course, is left to the reader to discern.
:wtf: That's exactly what I am saying. I apologise for the many subclauses in the quoted sentence, but read it carefully :)
I'm not rejecting the principle of causality. I am saying that:
1) IF one wants to be able to alter the course of histoyr by time travelling or using wierd temporal weapons or whatever, one must reject the principle of causality, but
2) IF one rejected the principle of causality, the whole idea of changing history by actions of any sort would be pointless, anyway.
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Originally posted by Sesquipedalian
1) IF one wants to be able to alter the course of histoyr by time travelling or using wierd temporal weapons or whatever, one must reject the principle of causality, but
The ability to design and decide to deploy a temporal weapon requires that you accept causality, not reject it. If you dont' accpet causality, then how can you even concieve of a tool to remove a cause and thus prevent an effect?
I think you're talking in circles.
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Originally posted by mikhael
The ability to design and decide to deploy a temporal weapon requires that you accept causality, not reject it. If you dont' accpet causality, then how can you even concieve of a tool to remove a cause and thus prevent an effect?
I think you're talking in circles.
Not to mention thinking in circles...those long hours of texturing have gotten to his brain again...poor poor aldo :p
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Originally posted by mikhael
The ability to design and decide to deploy a temporal weapon requires that you accept causality, not reject it. If you dont' accpet causality, then how can you even concieve of a tool to remove a cause and thus prevent an effect?
I think you're talking in circles.
I think the problem here, mikhael, is that I'm actually arguing the opposite of what you think I am arguing. Basically I'm saying, "1+1=2," and you are replying, "No, 1+1=2."
P.S. I'm not aldo.
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Originally posted by Sesquipedalian
I think the problem here, mikhael, is that I'm actually arguing the opposite of what you think I am arguing. Basically I'm saying, "1+1=2," and you are replying, "No, 1+1=2."
P.S. I'm not aldo.
The Aldo thing was someone else.
However, you are correct. I misread your original statement, and all else that followed was predicated on that misapprehension. Sorry about that.
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I was talking to LtNarol about the aldo thing; should've specified that in the post. :)
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Also, As for time travel think of this.
Main timeline, you want to invent time trael to kill hitler so you make machine and plan to go back and do it. You activate machine and go back to whenever and kill him. Now here's teh rub... You actually succeed. However the INSTANT you accomplish a major change in the time stream everything changes except you (you are imune BUT only you cause you are inacting the change). Now unless you can travel forard youself with a portable device you are screwed cause the reason for inventing time travel has been eliminated, in fact because of teh changes you made you probably will NOT be born (as well as millions of other people will never have existed). Because families stay togeter, different people meet and have kids, ect... for fifty or so years... Best senario you travel to the future and no one knows you unless they are still alive and you interacted with them back in the 20's or 30's or whenever you went back to... Would you really want to live in a world with no family? Possibly... Here's another example, instead of changing the MAIN timeline (with hitler) this is what happened. You go back in time kill hitler and return to future. Nothing changed??? Wrong, in order for you to return to your future nothing can change, BUT you did kill him so an Alternate timeline was created the branches off the main timeline at the point of the killing. That alternate timeline will be radicly different as I described above. The paradox is that you can't change just one event without affecting EVERYTING after that point UNLESS you have power on the scale of a "Q" type entity... SO this really ruins the idea of the GTVA having that kind of power.
Now something more reasonable.... GTVA invents a form of time travel (maybe a small window of travel , either can only go back 7 days, ect.. or they are auto-returned in a few hours/minutes, can only visit any particular time again just ONCE, ect...) before a jump they do research for minmal changes (don't want to make the GTVA dissapear, or any major victories go poof!) If they need another ship they loo in the files for a missing or similiar event, maybe even a tragic accident. they go back and tow ship back to future) history still records that ship and crew gone, butknow have second chance in future with new destiny and further service to GTVA, that is an AWESOME power to contend with. They can't go back and redo capella because all the years/decades? since capella would be changed. See what I mean, think small and use history to make huge gains without major changes in timeline... Now if next week the shivans destroy a world and the GTVA invented this tech a year ago, they can record the incident, go back and show the proof to command, and evacuate the world OR plan a battle. The amount of time for an immediate jump after the point of time travel invention is critical cause the people involved in thinking of it, designing, and building it actually did create it and know of its operation (ie seven days, code word conundrum means a timeline change has happened, agent will brief staff as to what will happen within 7 day window) ect...
Even with these limitations it is one POWERFUL ability!!!
(Timeship premonition from ST Armada)...
to digress further I love teh recording on B5 when they see teh whitestar kill a shadow ship near B4 so they know they HAVE to go to the past to make that recording true (history MUST unfold, haha that's a paradox, they have to time travel to keep history intact! hehehe...)... The best part was Sinclair getting a letter in his own handwritting from 1000 years ago... (dude it's me, or rather you... YOU will become Valen, you must become the greatest Minbari ever and defeat the shadows or the next 1000 years will change LOL!!!) I can just imagine giving that order to the priests (this box must NOT be opened for 1000 years and only be given to one called sinclair, don't worry he WILL be there at that time, trust me (ha ha!)... My rant is done...
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way to dredge up an 11mo old most on a question that was, I believe, already resolved.