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Off-Topic Discussion => Gaming Discussion => Topic started by: Marcov on May 27, 2010, 09:12:42 am

Title: Space Sims are...hated?
Post by: Marcov on May 27, 2010, 09:12:42 am
Basically it's self-explanatory.

I wonder why so many people appear to dislike the genre of Space Flight Simulators. Apparently FS is one of them, that's why few people get to play it, let alone encounter it. Maybe this is the cause for its apparent death?

Also, I'd like to point out that seemingly countless people dislike space battles in general. Why? They're dramatic, action-packed battles and probably the most thrilling you'll ever see.

Any opinions?
Title: Re: Space Sims are...hated?
Post by: The E on May 27, 2010, 09:33:53 am
Yes. Is there any data to support that thesis, or are you just making stuff up from your own experiences?

Problem is, Space sims (Note the simulation part there?) are notoriously incompatible with anyone but a certain type of gamer. Same goes for realistic flight sims a la MS Flight Simulator or Falcon 4.0. And, you know, some people just don't like sci fi.

Granted, Space sims weren't always the kind of niche genre they are now, but what killed them were not a rising dislike of the genre, but a demographic shift in the gaming culture away from the PC and the nerdy corner into the cultural mainstream. That, more than anything, killed space sims as a big moneymaker.
Title: Re: Space Sims are...hated?
Post by: SpardaSon21 on May 27, 2010, 12:32:17 pm
Granted, Space sims weren't always the kind of niche genre they are now, but what killed them were not a rising dislike of the genre, but a demographic shift in the gaming culture away from the PC and the nerdy corner into the cultural mainstream. That, more than anything, killed space sims as a big moneymaker.
I blame consoles. :P
Title: Re: Space Sims are...hated?
Post by: Sushi on May 27, 2010, 03:40:58 pm
Well, there's no reason why you can't have a good console space-sim. And don't tell me "but you can't have a good space sim without needing so many inputs you need a keyboard!" because it's simply not true. Game designers have gotten very good at figuring out how to reduce a game's control inputs to the constraints of a console while keeping the game fun, deep, and playable.

Aren't there some people here who play Freespace with a 360 controller?

Title: Re: Space Sims are...hated?
Post by: The E on May 27, 2010, 03:48:12 pm
Indeed. I mean, the DualShock 3 for example has 16 buttons (including the D-Pad), 2 joysticks plus a motion tracker. You can probably get all controls you need for regular gameplay in there.
Title: Re: Space Sims are...hated?
Post by: SpardaSon21 on May 27, 2010, 04:19:23 pm
Yeah, but space sims are niche games, and who's going to make a niche game for a console, which your average game developer seems to be gravitating towards more and more?
Title: Re: Space Sims are...hated?
Post by: IceFire on May 27, 2010, 05:03:29 pm
Space sims are a bit of a contradiction. They have all of the arcade action of a shooter type game combined with the complexity of gameplay and controls more typically associated with a flight simulator.  The flight simulator crowd may not overly enjoy the fictional setting or arcade action and the arcade action/shooter crowd don't like the complexity.

There are still some rumours that Wing Commander will return and EA will green light a new product.  Not sure if that would be a top level development or something a little over the WC Arena effort. If that happens.. then other publishers may want to compete and it could revitalize the market.  Until then... FreeSpace 2 is still the best game in town :)
Title: Re: Space Sims are...hated?
Post by: SpardaSon21 on May 27, 2010, 05:24:05 pm
I think another Wing Commander Arena would kill off space sims for good.
Title: Re: Space Sims are...hated?
Post by: Sushi on May 27, 2010, 06:11:59 pm
IMO the field is right for the next great mission-based space sim. Someone will eventually figure this out and muster up the guts to make it.

That, or an indie developer makes a game that makes space sims popular again. That would probably trigger the major studios into getting back into the game. For better or worse. :p

Consoles figured out how to do some pretty decent arcadey flight sims... they can totally manage the same for space sims, and it's only a matter of time.
Title: Re: Space Sims are...hated?
Post by: Thaeris on May 29, 2010, 09:37:11 am
I'm all for indie developers. Most of the spaceflight simulators/flight sims in general I've seen about are indie in a way regardless, X-Plane included. And this is a good thing. Independant devs make products to their standards and tend to be able to avoid the restrictions of the big studios.
Title: Re: Space Sims are...hated?
Post by: Nuke on June 02, 2010, 10:27:43 pm
i dont consider freespace a space sim so much as i consider it a space shooter. the affix sim usually requires some degree of realistic physics. i consider orbiter a space sim.
Title: Re: Space Sims are...hated?
Post by: GoulMeister on June 03, 2010, 04:59:23 am
Space sims dont necessarily needs complex controls, or space shooters, colony wars on the ps worked fine with the pad. Terrible graphics though.
Title: Re: Space Sims are...hated?
Post by: Colonol Dekker on June 03, 2010, 07:37:54 am
 :o the first space opera I EVER played was Wing Commander secret missions,(Sivar dreadnaught one) on the SNES.
 
One of my favourites of all time.
 
The controls were a piece of cake. I actually preferred them to the keyboard. So once I get myself a USB  SNES control. (I've been meaning to for years) that's gonna be my chosen method.
 
 
The genre died because of Metal gear generation titles saturating the market.
 
Title: Re: Space Sims are...hated?
Post by: Nuke on June 03, 2010, 04:28:24 pm
Space sims dont necessarily needs complex controls, or space shooters, colony wars on the ps worked fine with the pad. Terrible graphics though.

my point was that "space sim" was a misnomer in that there was very little actual simulation going on and that the term space shooter was more appropriate to freespace. space sim should be reserved for things like orbiter, frontier, space combat, iwar, ect.

when i show someone freespace and they become totally discouraged because the number of keyboard commands, i usually make the point that you really dont use most of them. with a hotas i rarely touch the keyboard and even then i dont use them all. of course when i look at the modern tactical fps game kinda scares me with the number of controls you have to use in a genre where your used to wasd and mouse. even some console games are daunting, frankly i dont get how hoards of console players manage playing halo proficiently.  some months ago at my sisters place i played destroy all humans on their xbox, then several months later i couldnt remember the controls because they were really unorthodox from what i was used to. yet somehow i manage to play doom on my 5g ipod.

i really dont see any problem playing freespace on a game pad, provided that some thought is given to mapping and use of shift buttons is permitted. some things like the ets gauge, shields, and com menus would need to be thought out. for example using a shift key would make one thumbstick control shield balence, and the other control ets settings (think starlancer's power ball). hitting the com button might open the menu and allow nevigation with a thumbstick. then you would just need to worry about targeting and weapons.

Title: Re: Space Sims are...hated?
Post by: GoulMeister on June 03, 2010, 10:01:04 pm
For most gamers i think its what people are used to playing with, most gamers now are probly more fimilar with console controlers, personaly i cant understand using an xbox controler over a keyboard/mouse combo in an fps game, the only shooter that actually worked for me was goldeneye on the n64. console controllers are better for platformers, racing games and fighting games whereas keyboards/mice are better for fps games and rts games, but in most cases you can use either without a major problem.
Title: Re: Space Sims are...hated?
Post by: Mongoose on June 03, 2010, 11:30:01 pm
I think it also depends on the sort of console you're talking about.  The Wii controller setup is pretty much ready-made for FPSes, and I'm kind of surprised that no one (as far as I know) has tried rolling out an RTS title for it.
Title: Re: Space Sims are...hated?
Post by: Nuke on June 04, 2010, 01:57:11 am
i wouldn't even consider the wii because its kind of an oddity where the conventions of gaming were thrown out the window in favor of something completely different. while the wii is pretty awesome, it doesn't fit well with many established genres, but it does is make new genres plausible. i dont think it's control scheme works well for your classic fps. however if you rewrite the conventions, like make the weapon aimable independent from the view controls and walking controls, then you can improve upon the genre while not exactly fitting the classic mold.

i kinda thing about the ps2/3 controllers to be the most well designed game pad in existence (i hate the 360 pad), so thats what i think about when somone mentions gamepads. it has a good button density, pretty light, isnt ridiculously large, has enough axes for most games. but id rather have my ch controllers, and id be more open to consoles if i could plug my pc joysticks into them.
Title: Re: Space Sims are...hated?
Post by: Colonol Dekker on June 04, 2010, 02:09:14 am
I'd use the term conventions rather than rules when talking about the Wii. Old doesn't mean preferable.
Title: Re: Space Sims are...hated?
Post by: Nuke on June 04, 2010, 04:05:49 pm
I'd use the term conventions rather than rules when talking about the Wii. Old doesn't mean preferable.

yea i think i was half asleep when i posted that.
Title: Re: Space Sims are...hated?
Post by: Locutus of Borg on June 04, 2010, 05:24:43 pm
My two favorite silly people in one place!!!

:D
Title: Re: Space Sims are...hated?
Post by: castor on June 05, 2010, 09:15:03 am
I wonder why so many people appear to dislike the genre of Space Flight Simulators. Apparently FS is one of them, that's why few people get to play it, let alone encounter it. Maybe this is the cause for its apparent death?
Any opinions?
"early days": most of the people involved were geeks, inclined to be interested in scfi subjects
now: computer gaming is commonplace among non-geeks -> the relative importance of scifi has declined -> less attractive to developers
Title: Re: Space Sims are...hated?
Post by: Vidmaster on June 05, 2010, 10:00:37 am
"early days": most of the people involved were geeks, inclined to be interested in scfi subjects
now: computer gaming is commonplace among non-geeks -> the relative importance of scifi has declined -> less attractive to developers

That's indeed one of the reasons.
Another one was the rise of the shooter as THE primary 3D game type, plus the emergance of MainStream, along with everything that comes with it. Very complex games are not MainStream enough  ;)
Title: Re: Space Sims are...hated?
Post by: Kosh on June 06, 2010, 05:12:05 pm
Space in general is an area that no one really gives a damn about anymore except for a select few die hards, and the fall of the space sim certainly reflects this.


That being said, I actually did try out a space sim that had realistic physics, it was a free b5 game called "i've found her". Certainly fun, but without a joystick and a lot of practice damn hard to fly well.
Title: Re: Space Sims are...hated?
Post by: General Battuta on June 06, 2010, 05:46:30 pm
Space in general is an area that no one really gives a damn about anymore except for a select few die hards, and the fall of the space sim certainly reflects this.

Definitely untrue. Things set in space are pretty darn popular.
Title: Re: Space Sims are...hated?
Post by: The E on June 06, 2010, 05:48:36 pm
It's the WW2 in space that's unpopular.
Title: Re: Space Sims are...hated?
Post by: Kosh on June 06, 2010, 05:53:35 pm
Space in general is an area that no one really gives a damn about anymore except for a select few die hards, and the fall of the space sim certainly reflects this.

Definitely untrue. Things set in space are pretty darn popular.

Such as?
Title: Re: Space Sims are...hated?
Post by: General Battuta on June 06, 2010, 06:02:48 pm
Space in general is an area that no one really gives a damn about anymore except for a select few die hards, and the fall of the space sim certainly reflects this.

Definitely untrue. Things set in space are pretty darn popular.

Such as?

Star Trek just ripped open the box office last summer; Moon was a critical hit; Avatar is the highest-grossing movie in the world; District 9's aliens from space were a surprise critical and commercial hit; Alastair Reynolds just got a million-dollar contract (!); Iain Banks continues to grab critical adoration and make bestseller lists; BSG was not only critically successful, but it became the show-to-watch for showrunners...

It's not the post-Wars 80s, but times aren't too bad.
Title: Re: Space Sims are...hated?
Post by: Kosh on June 06, 2010, 06:11:41 pm
Point taken. Too bad there isn't more interest in doing stuff in space in real life, but that's for a different conversation.


Anyway if anyone is interested, here's the link to the main  I've Found Her homepage. (http://ifhgame.ru/main/)
Title: Re: Space Sims are...hated?
Post by: Adept on June 07, 2010, 05:27:38 pm
When did the last good Space Game come out? I suppose the "I've Found Her" Babylon 5 project qualifies. Before that it's Freespace and Wing Commander Prophecy?

You guys should join me in playing Allegiance. It's an awesome space sim. It's fully PvP, and it's totally free since Microsoft didn't know a good thing after they had created it  :lol:

It's challenging and people are quite passionate about it (so feelings run hot sometimes). I must say the Squad League that just ended was one of the wildest rides of my ride.

Come check us out fellow space fans.
www.freeallegiance.org

(http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e313/Adaven/AllegianceWallpaper.png)
Title: Re: Space Sims are...hated?
Post by: QuantumDelta on June 07, 2010, 08:24:00 pm
As "limited" as FS2s' multi is, I .....seriously think I'll stick to that :<
Title: Re: Space Sims are...hated?
Post by: Adept on June 08, 2010, 08:28:41 am
Those of you who show up to try out Allegiance, I'd love to hear from you.

Being skilled in FS2 or Wing Commander or such gives a great head start   :pimp:
Title: Re: Space Sims are...hated?
Post by: Woolie Wool on June 08, 2010, 12:52:17 pm
Indeed. I mean, the DualShock 3 for example has 16 buttons (including the D-Pad), 2 joysticks plus a motion tracker. You can probably get all controls you need for regular gameplay in there.

A context-menu comm system and a simplified "smart" targeting system would make FreeSpace perfectly playable on a console. Hell, Wing Commander is playable on primitive 16-bit console gamepads. You Know What would not have to sacrifice that much compared to FS2 to be a viable multi-platform game.

What I want, really, is a new military mission-based space sim. There are quite a few open-ended sandbox space sims out there, but no mission-based WC- or FS-style space sims. That, and no more Newtonian space sims. They're about as fun as filing tax returns.
Title: Re: Space Sims are...hated?
Post by: Sushi on June 08, 2010, 02:57:40 pm

What I want, really, is a new military mission-based space sim. There are quite a few open-ended sandbox space sims out there, but no mission-based WC- or FS-style space sims. That, and no more Newtonian space sims. They're about as fun as filing tax returns.

+1 for truth.

Although semi-newtonian stuff can be a lot of fun... it's one of the things that, IMO, the aforementioned Allegiance gets exactly right. Diaspora is going to get it pretty right too. :)
Title: Re: Space Sims are...hated?
Post by: Adept on June 08, 2010, 03:12:22 pm
Although semi-newtonian stuff can be a lot of fun... it's one of the things that, IMO, the aforementioned Allegiance gets exactly right. Diaspora is going to get it pretty right too. :)
I'm absolutely hooked on the semi newtonian thing.

Most important is the chance to use up-down-left-right-front-back thrusters freely. That makes for awesome dogfighting.