Hard Light Productions Forums
Hosted Projects - Standalone => Fate of the Galaxy => Topic started by: StarSlayer on August 15, 2010, 09:22:01 pm
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I happened to catch RotJ on TV this evening, and I pretty much spent the whole 2nd half wondering how the frak the Empire managed to lose at Endor. Its like the Imps totally phoned it in. Dirt side an entire legion of their best troops lost to a bunch of bronze age carebears. And sorry Imps you don't get the Magellan excuse cus Ewoks sure as hell didn't have Eskrima. They had one objective on that whole stupid moon which was protect the frakking door, and what was the first thing they did when the Ewoks show up? Abandon the frakking door! All they had to do is form square around the bloody entrance and let the AT-STs lay down suppressive fire. That would have been it, done, finito. **** they could have had thier FAC detail a couple TIE Bombers to come on down and carpet thermal detonate the surrounding area if they where feeling particularly thorough.
Then the space battle, which still holds up as a technical marvel, over a dozen ISDs lead by a SSD should have shalacked a couple MC-80s, a Neb-B, a misc. collection of corvettes and few Gallofree transports. Should have been like an 8th dan Okinawan karate master against some random drunk overweight slob pulled off the street.
Finally the whole throne room thing.
"Pick up your sabre and strike me down with it. Start your descent to the dark side my young apprentice."
"Nah I wont do it"
Whaddya mean you won't do it? You spent the rest of the three movies murderin' tons of dudes. How many bastards got blown up on the Death Star? Hell you killed dozens of Stormtroopers and Jabba cronies up close and personal up to this point, yet cutting down the supreme overlord of evil is morally ambiguous? Can't summon the fortitude to hew the geezer in two without getting all pissed first? What the hell where you going to do if daddy wasn't their? Hope the wrinkly old bastard tripped on his robe and fell down the elevator shaft?
I don't understand it either, I mean I've watched this film plenty of times in the past without this much frustration. My only guess is that the prequels poisoned my mind or something. I suppose I should be happy ANH and ESB still rock it hard.
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Whaddya mean you won't do it? You spent the rest of the three movies murderin' tons of dudes. How many bastards got blown up on the Death Star? Hell you killed dozens of Stormtroopers and Jabba cronies up close and personal up to this point, yet cutting down the supreme overlord of evil is morally ambiguous? Can't summon the fortitude to hew the geezer in two without getting all pissed first? What the hell where you going to do if daddy wasn't their? Hope the wrinkly old bastard tripped on his robe and fell down the elevator shaft?
:lol:
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It seems like half of those are right on par with 50 reasons why RotJ sucks (http://www.filmthreat.com/features/172/). The carebears vs Imps seemed almost verbatim from the list ;)
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Then the space battle, which still holds up as a technical marvel, over a dozen ISDs lead by a SSD should have shalacked a couple MC-80s, a Neb-B, a misc. collection of corvettes and few Gallofree transports. Should have been like an 8th dan Okinawan karate master against some random drunk overweight slob pulled off the street.
Read Heir to the Empire (again?). It offers a pretty interesting explanation. (Which I just read.)
"Pick up your sabre and strike me down with it. Start your descent to the dark side my young apprentice."
"Nah I wont do it"
Palpatine is, as far as Luke knows, defenseless. Striking down a defenseless old dude is basically the same thing as Anakin marching into the Temple Nursery in Ep3 and killing the kids. (Recall that the Force is very much a "ENDS CANNOT JUSTIFY MEANS" application of power.) This is about the only true deep thought put into the portrayal of Anakin Skywalker, assuming that's what it is, but it demonstrates nicely the differences between father and son.
I won't defend the Ewoks though. Give me an E-11 and I'll burn them down if you like.
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Then the space battle, which still holds up as a technical marvel, over a dozen ISDs lead by a SSD should have shalacked a couple MC-80s, a Neb-B, a misc. collection of corvettes and few Gallofree transports. Should have been like an 8th dan Okinawan karate master against some random drunk overweight slob pulled off the street.
Read Heir to the Empire (again?). It offers a pretty interesting explanation. (Which I just read.)
I don't think Timothy Zhan being awesome and coming up with the "Imps suddenly having their Palpatine powered endorphin buzz killed" quite wipes clean the initial debacle. If they had actually written that in the initial movie it would have been a master stroke. But Zhan wasn't there, nor was he put in charge of the prequels.
"Pick up your sabre and strike me down with it. Start your descent to the dark side my young apprentice."
"Nah I wont do it"
Palpatine is, as far as Luke knows, defenseless. Striking down a defenseless old dude is basically the same thing as Anakin marching into the Temple Nursery in Ep3 and killing the kids. (Recall that the Force is very much a "ENDS CANNOT JUSTIFY MEANS" application of power.) This is about the only true deep thought put into the portrayal of Anakin Skywalker, assuming that's what it is, but it demonstrates nicely the differences between father and son.
The original Death Star didn't have a janitorial staff? Jabba's sail barge didn't have any non villainous personnel on it? Blowing up the Death Stare 2.0 with the Emperor aboard isn't as bad as hewing him from nave to chops?
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The original Death Star didn't have a janitorial staff? Jabba's sail barge didn't have any non villainous personnel on it? Blowing up the Death Stare 2.0 with the Emperor aboard isn't as bad as hewing him from nave to chops?
They had a defense, a chance. It may have been controlled and carried out by others but they did. The Emperor, not so much. (At least as far as Luke knew.)
You're also assuming that one law covers all in a world with geniune superpowers. This can't be the case because there are two distinct classes of people which exist due to basic differences in capablity. It's like saying that the same laws which apply to normal people must apply to the mentally ill.
The rules which apply to Jedi are also not the rules which apply to other people. A Jedi, because of their unique powers, must be held to much stricter moral standards to prevent abuse. Luke could no more have killed Jabba face to face than he could have the Emperor. And there was plenty of time to abandon ship if you meant to with the Sail Barge and even a second means of escape, the only time he was actually involved as a Jedi.
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There is no dark side, no light side! Only the Force! Morality resides only in the wielder!
wooooooo potentium heresy
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The original Death Star didn't have a janitorial staff? Jabba's sail barge didn't have any non villainous personnel on it? Blowing up the Death Stare 2.0 with the Emperor aboard isn't as bad as hewing him from nave to chops?
They had a defense, a chance. It may have been controlled and carried out by others but they did. The Emperor, not so much. (At least as far as Luke knew.)
You're also assuming that one law covers all in a world with geniune superpowers. This can't be the case because there are two distinct classes of people which exist due to basic differences in capablity. It's like saying that the same laws which apply to normal people must apply to the mentally ill.
The rules which apply to Jedi are also not the rules which apply to other people. A Jedi, because of their unique powers, must be held to much stricter moral standards to prevent abuse. Luke could no more have killed Jabba face to face than he could have the Emperor. And there was plenty of time to abandon ship if you meant to with the Sail Barge and even a second means of escape, the only time he was actually involved as a Jedi.
That's one screwed up moral code that underlings who are basically doing their job get to be murdered with nary a second thought yet those that direct them have some sorta moral immunity shield. Though I suppose thats while the Star Wars universe is just a continual seesaw between the Jedi and Sith, Jedi are too dumb to live and Sith are too dumb to rule.
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What, now we're reciting an argument from Clerks (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6lzEhoXads)? Can we get some OC up in this thread? :P
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That's one screwed up moral code that underlings who are basically doing their job get to be murdered with nary a second thought yet those that direct them have some sorta moral immunity shield. Though I suppose thats while the Star Wars universe is just a continual seesaw between the Jedi and Sith, Jedi are too dumb to live and Sith are too dumb to rule.
Go back and try actually reading what I wrote.
Luke was a Jedi and involved for only one of the incidents. Jedi must be held to different standards because of their power. Luke could not have killed the DS2.0 if he had been in a cockpit for exactly the reasons you cite. But he wasn't in a cockpit for it, was he?
And he didn't kill it either, unless you're going back and deciding Zahn was right, which is a little late.
There is no dark side, no light side! Only the Force! Morality resides only in the wielder!
wooooooo potentium heresy
Emperical evidence (haha pun) suggests otherwise. :P
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There is no dark side, no light side! Only the Force! Morality resides only in the wielder!
wooooooo potentium heresy
Emperical evidence (haha pun) suggests otherwise. :P
[/quote]
Empirical evidence is hopelessly confounded! Not to mention the lies perpetrated by those with a misguided understanding of the Force, including many of those currently charged with custody of so-called 'canon'.
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Empirical evidence is hopelessly confounded!
We could just ask Lucas. Since it's ultimately his world to define...
In fact I'm pretty sure it's been done.
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Oh wow. And here I was expecting this to be another "is this project dead" thread (just going from the title).
Good to see StarSlayer's got better sense than that.
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Empirical evidence is hopelessly confounded!
We could just ask Lucas. Since it's ultimately his world to define...
In fact I'm pretty sure it's been done.
Lucas is a doddering fool who understands nothing about the true nature of the Force. While his apparatchiks are busy trying to bury the truth, he slouches off into obsolescence.
The ultimate unity of the Force is already becoming apparent to many.
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Anyone on the DS2 knew what they were doing, just because they were civilians doesn't make it excusable to build a WMD and think that you won't be in the crossfire at some point. Even a Jedi is ok to deal with the weapon accordingly. Same goes for the Sail Barge, or anyone working for a criminal or military power. You know the risks involved when you sign up.
This thread is quite bizarre btw.
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They had one objective on that whole stupid moon which was protect the frakking door, and what was the first thing they did when the Ewoks show up? Abandon the frakking door! All they had to do is form square around the bloody entrance and let the AT-STs lay down suppressive fire. That would have been it, done, finito.
You missed the part about the back door being explicitly called "a secret entrance". I've figured that the imperials were holed up protecting whatever was the main entrance to the generator, and the reason the rebels ever got inside in the first place was because the imperials weren't expecting them to go that way. Of course it's still stupid that they didn't bother to also set up a defense around the back door just because they didn't think some ewok would tell the rebels where it is, but a bit less stupid anyway.
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What about the Executor being taken out by a single A-Wing? So what, it took out some control mechanism? Don't tell me there aren't redundancies on a ship that size? It's like someone told the crew that the Empire is supposed to lose in this movie according to the script, so they might as well just sit back and wait for the end. Probably had a guy on the bridge ram the thing in the DS2 the moment the ship took the first hit. That's sure what it looked like to me. Even without the Death Star and the Executor the imperial fleet still outnumbered and outgunned the rebel fleet by a lot. Guess the rebels were lucky the imperial crews in those ships read the script so they knew they were supposed to lose.
Like the robot chicken vid I can't seem to find on youtube now says:
(setting: star destroyer bridge)
- Turn the fleet around! We'll make those rebels pay!
- Sorry, we can't. They won.
- What? But we have hundreds of ships left!
- Yes, yes. But they took out the death star and killed the emperor.
- So what?! They took out the death star before..
- yes, but they didn't kill the emperor back then. They had to do both.
- So this is it? We lost? This is the end of the empire?
- afraid so..
- So what do we do now?
- I suppose we could go get a massage?
- Good idea, let's do that..
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your forgetting the blow to moral to the rank and file crew of the ships, not only have they just lost the weapon to end all wars by means unknown but also lost the figurehead of the imperial state.
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your forgetting the blow to moral to the rank and file crew of the ships, not only have they just lost the weapon to end all wars by means unknown but also lost the figurehead of the imperial state.
I didn't forget. But the blow to morale can only take you so far. There are historical examples of battles where the leader got killed by enemy spies and the battle still ended with a win for the side that lost the leader - part of it due to them being even more pissed off then before and really wanting revenge. Another factor in that equation is that leaders and morale aren't everything - well trained officers that have enough troops at their disposal can and should still carry on and fight to win.
After seeing the DS2 blow up and their Emperor die, you're telling me that the well trained imperial officers and crews of hundreds, if not thousands of star destroyers parked over Endor allowed those few mon cals and neb-b's to slowly pick them apart and even capture a few ISD's before retreating? They still had 100:1 odds, you don't need very high morale to just zerg rush the rebels. You can even use it to instill fighting spirit into your forces - tell them to get revenge for the death of the emperor. With hundreds of ISDs on your side, shouldn't be difficult. What I could buy is the rebel fleet being able to escape after taking out the DS2 before the imp fleet could react. Unfortunately what the movies and EU would have us believe is that after the DS2 blew up the imperials were suddenly on the run despite still having more numerous, better equipped forces.
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if you read up on the battle of endor the imperial fleet wasn't wiped out it withdrew though if you get into it the circumstances surrounding that are just as dodgy.
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Which is what I'm saying. They withdrew despite having vastly superior numbers and firepower, because they read in the script they're not supposed to win :P
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Which is what I'm saying. They withdrew despite having vastly superior numbers and firepower, because they read in the script they're not supposed to win :P
lol fair enough
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The Imp fleet at Endor as far as what's shown in their big reveal (and what's listed on Wookiepedia if you care about the EU poop) seems to consist of around 30 destroyers and Executor. The Rebel fleet has a lot more big Mon Cal cruisers than what are shown close up in the build up sequence--in some shots they pretty much litter the background with wingless MC80s. Even though the destroyer fleet probably has the rebels majorly outgunned without Executor or the DSII, it's entirely possible that they were deployed in a position that left them very vulnerable after Executor was dropped. We don't really know enough about how capital ship combat works in SW to be able to say that X number of ships should crush Y number of ships in any situation no matter what. Home One at least is a lot lot bigger than an ISD, so that could be another problem if the squadron is outmaneuvered to a point where they can't all gang up on her. Combine that with the Rebels' fire ship deterrent (supposedly that's what stuff like the Gallofrees were there for) and you could see how withdrawing might be the smart course of action for the Imperials.
I'm not saying that the end of RotJ isn't ludicrous or anything, just that the Rebs winning the space battle after getting incredibly lucky a couple times is probably the more believable half. Plenty of historic examples of small armies with good leadership and morale and tactics routing big armies with poor leadership and morale and tactics. I consider everything after ANH to be EU anyway, so none of it counts really! :D
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I consider everything after ANH to be EU anyway, so none of it counts really! :D
Oh, come on, ESB was still brilliant. I consider anything before ANH.. actually, wait a moment. *waves hand* There are no movies before ANH.
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Debates in the Star Wars verse always crack me up. There are two important points to consider here.
1. The Jedi are based off Samurai. Jedai being a Japanese word used to describe a play about Samurai. So in order to understand the moral code, you not only have to understand Samurai mentality, but you have to understand what Lucas saw in their code. Given he got most of his insight from Kirasowa flicks, we all know movies are always accurate representation of things.....right? /scathing sarcasm.
2. Lucas can't write a plot that does not have holes big enough to drive a mack truck through. He is great at concept. But that is about it.
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Here's my take on these "issues" (nope, they still suck... though some of them could've been made to work):
1. Why Luke doesn't want to kill the Emperor - If he did, he'd slide into the dark side.... not because moral considerations, but because the manipulative bastard has riled him up into a good rage and made him hate his guts... if he lets loose he'd irrevocably fall. (Yes, I know it's idiotic, but this is how the force is portrayed in the overwhelming majority of the franchise). In the end he'd become just another well intentioned extremist. That's why the throne room was a trap, since as far as the Sith were concerned they've already won: If Luke kills the Emperor, then he'd team up with Vader and a new pair of Sith would take over the empire. If Luke kills Vader, he displaces the old apprentice and the Sith live on. Why would he do either of these? Because the dark side is seductive (I know, I know... but this is how the Force is portrayed... yada, yada)... so once he got a taste he might take more compromises.
2. Why the Imperial Navy didn't trash the Rebels even with the Death Star and the Emperor gone:
Imagine the bridge of random Imperial Star Destroyer with a high ranking admiral aboard:
-Admiral the Death Star's gone and the Emperor dead!
-Dead? Then who's in charge now?
-Errr....
-Hmm... hey, since I'm pretty high on the ladder I could be. Open a comm channel to all ships! This is admiral as the admiral of greatest seniority I'm taking charge of the fleet, so...
<another comm cuts in>
-....am assuming direct power for the...
<another>
-....so it's clear I should be the...!
<another>
-No, I'll never stand for it, I have Moff Jiles onboard and as part of the direct leadership appointed by the Emperor, he should...
...get the picture? The moment the Emperor's gone, with no clear successor the whole leadership could break down. Without a charismatic and acknowledged person like Thrawn, Dalla or Tarkin around the infighting could tear the fleet apart...
...and even if it didn't the officers would be very nervous about taking initiative on their own as Imperial doctrine discouraged wildcards and solo action. They don't know who'll be in charge and just in case they would keep as much of their forces in reserve as possible. So they'd retreat.... taking out the rebels would be a lesser problem, right now with the political turmoil ahead they'd focus on preserving their career.... or life in case the takeover gets hot.
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magine the bride of random Imperial Star Destroyer
A Star Destroyeress?
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magine the bride of random Imperial Star Destroyer
A Star Destroyeress?
Never happen the Empire was to misogynistic for female Star Destroyers.
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Never happen the Empire was to misogynistic for female Star Destroyers.
But not misogynistic enough to kill off Supreme Mary Empress Sue Daala.
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Never happen the Empire was to misogynistic for female Star Destroyers.
But not misogynistic enough to kill off Supreme Mary Empress Sue Daala.
I stopped reading EU once the Vong stuff started, they pretty much ruined my taste for it, up until that point she was pretty epic fail. Plus Anderson isn't one of the better EU writers IMHO.
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Never happen the Empire was to misogynistic for female Star Destroyers.
But not misogynistic enough to kill off Supreme Mary Empress Sue Daala.
rgrgrghrghrghrghrgrh kevin anderson
all my rage
Except apparently he's a really nice guy.
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Really nice guy != Good writer. Anderson's work on Star Wars is pretty damn bad.
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Really nice guy != Good writer. Anderson's work on Star Wars is pretty damn bad.
His work on everything is pretty damn bad. But at least he's not a drooling and exploitative ingrate like, like...
gimme something here folks
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Karen Traviss?
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Really nice guy != Good writer. Anderson's work on Star Wars is pretty damn bad.
As bad as it was, I give him credit for writing the books that really got me interested in Star Wars again when I was in middle school - which then got me playing X-Wing, reading Zahn's books (as well as several other decent EU books), watching the entire trilogy every weekend I got a chance, playing the old West End Books' Star Wars 2nd Edition RPG, and overall obsessing over all things Star Wars. Such a huge part of my youth...and I pretty much owe it to his crappy novels.
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Karen Traviss?
I really like her though YMMV. People either tend to love or hate her works as she pretty much deconstructs Star Wars in her books.
Then the really good ones (though not as philosophical as Karen):
-Michael Stackpole (good entertainment, bad guys, good guys, explosions and X-wings)
-Aaron Allston (...the above, though with lots of funny and wacky characters who have a lot of CMF that could pass for CMA in a lot of cases).
...and Timothy Zahn, the best damn Star Wars writer there is. He created Thrawn. His writing style is rather dry and sparse but IMHO it's all the better for it. Did I say he created Thrawn?
PS.: Anderson is a hack. He ruined a great deal of Star Wars. It took Stackpole to polish his turn into something good. (I Jedi).
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It was actually the X-Wing novels that finally killed Star Wars books for me and sent me off reading Dragonlance instead. I think I read the first 3 and when I realized this was going to be an ongoing series with no end in sight I gave up.
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An ongoing series with no end in sight that ended after 8 novels in total?
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Karen Traviss?
Traviss isn't exploitative but probably drools. Some of her assertions are simply idiotic.
Whoever wrote Crystal Star, maybe. It didn't really have anything to do with Star Wars.
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Karen Traviss?
Traviss isn't exploitative but probably drools.
Whoever wrote Crystal Star, maybe. It didn't really have anything to do with Star Wars.
Vonda McIntyre is actually a beast. Crystal Star was just...not her finest hour.
Karen Traviss?
I really like her though YMMV. People either tend to love or hate her works as she pretty much deconstructs Star Wars in her books.
Then the really good ones (though not as philosophical as Karen):
-Michael Stackpole (good entertainment, bad guys, good guys, explosions and X-wings)
-Aaron Allston (...the above, though with lots of funny and wacky characters who have a lot of CMF that could pass for CMA in a lot of cases).
...and Timothy Zahn, the best damn Star Wars writer there is. He created Thrawn. His writing style is rather dry and sparse but IMHO it's all the better for it. Did I say he created Thrawn?
PS.: Anderson is a hack. He ruined a great deal of Star Wars. It took Stackpole to polish his turn into something good. (I Jedi).
You forgot Matt Stover.
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I kinda hated "Children of the Jedi". But I guess the title should have been warning enough :P
It was written by Barbara Hambly, I'm not sure about the rest of her work but this book was abysmal.
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We all know that true Star Wars continuity begins just before SW: ANH and ends just after Vision of the Future
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Outbound Flight was actually good despite it being pre-Clone Wars, but that would be because it was written by Timothy Zahn and included Thrawn.
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Yeah, T. Zahn is the best writer. No other books catch the SW "feeling" like his.
Most ( not all ) post-Endor books suck Jabbas Balls, but Zahn manages to avoid all the crap of the other books ( Jedi Academy, Yuuzahn Vong,...) focused on, and create a in-official Sequel trilogy.
K.W. Jeters "Bounty Hunter Wars" books aren't that bad either, even though they turn Boba Fett into a super-creature.
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Not to interrupt the author-hate of the moment, but can I just state that I vehemently disagree with just about every point in the opening post without breaking out paragraphs of nerd dissertation to back it up? :p
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Not to interrupt the author-hate of the moment, but can I just state that I vehemently disagree with just about every point in the opening post without breaking out paragraphs of nerd dissertation to back it up? :p
No
Edit>> In fact if you're going to say the Ewoks should have beaten the Imperial ground forces you will need to provide video evidence that proves you can say it with a straight face.
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I'm not going to go to that much bother, but I'll still assert as much. You're talking about the same Imperial forces that couldn't hit the broad side of a Wookie over two whole films. Why shouldn't a primitive jungle tribe handle them with relative ease? :p
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Well we could sort of (VERY loosely) use the argument of Fremen versus Sardokar as a comparison for Ewoks to Imperial forces,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Okay not really....but hey it was funny in my head:)
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Edit>> In fact if you're going to say the Ewoks should have beaten the Imperial ground forces you will need to provide video evidence that proves you can say it with a straight face.
In Mongoose' defense the Ewoks did start getting their asses kicked towards the end.
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Yeah, I'd thought of that right after I posted as a potential follow-up. If not for their far superior numbers, the Ewoks probably would have been mowed down in fairly short order, and even as-is they were on their way toward defeat by the end of the battle. It was only Chewie's Crowning Moment of Awesome that wound up saving the day.
As far as your other arguments go, I think a few valid reasons as to why the present Star Destroyers might not have stood much of a chance against the rebel fleet have already been raised. And Flaser effectively deconstructed your concerns about the throne room scene (though I'm not nearly so cynical about the tenets of the dark side as he is :p). I'm frankly surprised that you had that sort of objection, since it seems like you missed the entire point of the battle going on there. It had nothing to do with concerns of Jedi battlefield morality, or anything along those lines, but instead with the very nature of embracing the dark side and taking on the mantle of the Sith. Personally, I've always viewed it as one of my favorite moments in the entire OT; the Emperor toying with Luke's every emotion, and Luke himself coming to that realization about his father in his moment of range, are just awesome stuff.
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For something that originally was for laughs it sure got serious, but hey I'll bite.
I'll concede most of the throne room issue, out of the three that was the one I threw in mostly for gags anyway, and jokes aside was probably the best part of the movie aside from the technical aspects.
And in the context of EU I accept Zhan's/Thrawn's theory on why the Imp fleet fell apart after the old blighter swan dived down the shaft. Having the endorphin astronomicon suddenly cut would have been like going into sudden heroine withdrawal. That said the issue wasn't cleared up in the film and the fact that Zhan felt the need to address the issue seems evidence enough that it was a hole that needed to be plugged. To be honest though my problem was more to do with how the fleet underperformed prior to then them hanging it up after the Death Star blew. Sure supplementary fluff tries to make it seem like the rebel fleet was much larger then it appeared on screen, but on screen they have only a few serious warships, most of which got fried by the Death Star, and a motley collection of frigate/corvettes/transports yet they managed to go toe to toe with a numerically and technically superior Imperial battle group composed almost entirely of ships of the line and only lose a few snubbies. Personally I think it would have played out better and been more in keeping with the prior two if the Rebels did have their butts handed to them and only where saved by the Imps suffering a "Collector General" when Palpatine bought it. But we tossed the seriousness of ANH and ESB in favor of warm and fuzzy.
As for the ground battle, their still is no excuse for how it turned out, it was the most contrived thing in the movies, period. The fact remains that the second the Ewoks first yell Yub Yub every Imperial on that moon had their brain contract into the size of a pea and the resulting space was filled with the contents of their bowels, I think I'll call the effect assmosis. They had one job to do, protect the door from the Rebels so they didn't destroy the shield projector. The first thing they did was abandon the primary objective and scatter to the winds. If you had a platoon of Marines and a LAV 25 and told them to hold that door you better believe their would have been a shiny new Death Star orbiting the sanctuary moon by the end of the flick, and thats a fraction of what the Imps had. Its just militarily unforgivable, and really the audience deserved something better then assmosis for why the Imps lost the ground battle.
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On that note, the Americans in Vietnam had a relatively short border to defend against a technologically inferior force, and still managed to get their asses whooped
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That's true, but they got their asses whooped by guys armed with AK's and MiGs, not a bunch of fluffy stuffed animals throwing rocks :P
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That's true, but they got their asses whooped by guys armed with AK's and MiGs, not a bunch of fluffy stuffed animals throwing rocks :P
*sigh*
:(
They ruined everything.
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On that note, the Americans in Vietnam had a relatively short border to defend against a technologically inferior force, and still managed to get their asses whooped
Thats such a gross oversimplification you might as well say World War One started because a bloke named Archie Duke shot an ostrich because he was hungry.
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Outbound Flight was actually good despite it being pre-Clone Wars, but that would be because it was written by Timothy Zahn and included Thrawn.
It had prequel movie characters in it. This is unacceptable as it gives the movies legitimacy. If i am ever obscenely rich, i am going to go on an ancient egyptian style quest to remove those movies from history and make it seem as if they were never created. I will then hire a panel of authors to rewrite the movies properly and hand the film-making process to actual talented people.
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You're focusing on the prequel part of it and are missing the key words of my statement.
1. Timothy Zahn.
2. THRAAAAWWWNNN!!!
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Not only that, the Americans didn't get beat by the VC. They got beat by popular opinion back home. Even the VC generals realized after the last offensive that they were totally screwed, because we had essentially wiped out their entire army. They must have **** a brick when we then proceeded to pull out.
The US did not, tactically speaking, lose the Vietnam war.
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On that note, the Americans in Vietnam had a relatively short border to defend against a technologically inferior force, and still managed to get their asses whooped
Thats such a gross oversimplification you might as well say World War One started because a bloke named Archie Duke shot an ostrich because he was hungry.
Of course it's a gross oversimplification, but so is the common statement that the Empire was beaten by Teddy Bears.
For other similar scenarios, see the real life section of http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RockBeatsLaser
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On that note, the Americans in Vietnam had a relatively short border to defend against a technologically inferior force, and still managed to get their asses whooped
Thats such a gross oversimplification you might as well say World War One started because a bloke named Archie Duke shot an ostrich because he was hungry.
Of course it's a gross oversimplification, but so is the common statement that the Empire was beaten by Teddy Bears.
For other similar scenarios, see the real life section of http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RockBeatsLaser
No, not for similar scenarios. This wasn't early firearms vs bows and arrows, nor third world equipment vs the latest of the first world's military. This was bow and arrows vs basically walking helicopter gunships and laser assault rifles. Of course bows and arrows will beat early firearms. Early fire arms were crap, they couldn't reload near as fast as a bowman and did not have the penetrative power of a crossbow. What they did have is economics. They where cheap and easy to use and maintain and most importantly it took a blacksmith an afternoon to forge a ton of balls. Fletching arrows took a long skill intensive time and an archer could only carry a limited supply of them. Logistics is what made firearms take the place of bows and arrows and it took a long time before firearms became a superior weapon, so all those instances of muskets and stuff getting beat by natives isn't surprising.
But the issue isn't bows vs muskets, the issue is as I've stated repeatedly before that the Imps completely ignored what they where there to do on that moon. If George wanted to do Shaka Zulu with carebears fine, but rather then coming up with a plausible scenario for Imperial defeat he instead had "A legion of my finest troops" up and do the complete opposite of what they were supposed to do.
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A point I don't think anyone has mentioned:
Some how the Ewoks knew to move these giant logs to specific spots like hanging in a tree or at an ambush point to roll down a hill. And they pre-gather piles of rocks to throw down on top of stormtroopers? Either that or they had the time to do this before the battle started and they did it silently, so that no imp heard the 30 some odd trees hitting the ground in the rapidity the Ewoks were moving to prep for the battle.
I understand budgetary and set constraints of this, but I have an issue with some math. How many troops are in a legion versus what was on Endor in the movie? If you are not going to find a way to put them on screen, or AT LEAST explain where they are, DON'T GIVE A NUMBER TO IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Side note about Vietnam. Why we "lost" the war was we tied the hands of the military so badly they could not do their job effectively. Not without some decent reason due to the fears of starting a war with USSR.
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On that note, if you're going to build a key strategic asset on a planet you tend to make sure it's not vulnerable. Putting it smack in the middle of a forest that's filled with (and I use the word loosely) sentient, although primitive life forms that could potentially do damage if left unchecked is not what I call a sound tactical move. I'd have expected them to put it in a defensible position, and if there isn't one in the planetary area they need, then make one. Hell, the Emperor never gave bonus points for being a humanitarian, a commander who ordered the forest burned and local population exterminated in a 1000 mile radius so the generator would be secure would probably get hi-fived by the emperor himself. Instead they built it in a position that makes it very vulnerable to guerilla - style warfare and then abandoned the damn entrance to it first chance they got. If those are the Emperor's "best" legions then I can see how a band of Rebels managed to route them out in the end.
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We're talking about the same Empire that left convenient torpedo-sized reactor vents in their first superweapon. They're not exactly known for making tactically-sound defense choices. :p
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We're talking about the same Empire that left convenient torpedo-sized reactor vents in their first superweapon. They're not exactly known for making tactically-sound defense choices. :p
A project the size of the Death Star flaws are bound to creep in. This is not true of basic tactical planning. At the very least I would have expected a cleared field of fire around the bunker out to 500 meters and emplaced defenses of some kind.
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My point there was that the bunker didn't have a kilometer of cleared space around it for the same reason the Death Star had exhaust ports dramatically located at the ends of equatorial trenches: plot contrivance. Our heroes had to have some feasible way of defeating the Big Bad, and so the environment allowed them to do so. At least in my opinion, a film's setting should serve its plot, not the other way around. A more "realistic" treatment of that shield bunker probably would have been absolutely unassailable, but where's the fun in that? :p
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Sure it was both plot contrivance, but in one case it was much more believable.
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I'm not so sure. The Family Guy special had a great line about "covering them up with plywood." :p
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INCOMING THEORY! BRACE FOR IMPACT.
The Imperial fleet stationed around the DS2 had orders to hold their position. Only the Admirals likely had any clue as to why, and even they probably didn't know precisely what was planned.
"Should we attack?" "I have my orders from the Emperor himself. He has something special planned for them. We only need to keep them from escaping."
When the DS2 blasted the first Rebel ship, the Imps all likely did something like this: "So that's what he meant. Awesome. Time to put our feet up and enjoy the fireworks, maybe pick off a few stragglers."
Then the Rebels charged headlong into the Imperial fleet. I imagine it was similar to Han charging a squad of stormtroopers in ANH. They figured that the Rebels/Han obviously had some sort of secret plan, weapon, or backup that they were hiding, and subsequently panicked and/or decided to play it defensively.
Then you have disorganization as the lower commanders deploy forces to react to what's happenning while the higher-ups try to figure out what's happenning and why the plan isn't working. Nobody coordinates, the Rebels press their advantage using crafty tactics, superior fighters, and movie magic.
But still, the Imperials eventually start to turn things around. "Come, boy, see for yourself. From here, you will witness the final destruction of the Alliance and the end of your insignificant rebellion." But it's too late; soon the Emperor gets the shaft, the DS2 gets it's reactor shot, and the Empire's most powerful person and weapon go down in a matter of minutes. Obviously the Rebels did have some sort of fancy weapon or plan, and they're using it! Run away! And the Zahn theory thing too.
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To be honest, I never liked the Zahn theory. The books were awesome, I just never liked the idea the Emperor used the force to make them all competent.
As for the plot, having to invent very long posts worth of excuses for why things happened a certain way is never a good sign :P
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Can't we just say this all makes sense from a certain point of view? ;)
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To be honest, I never liked the Zahn theory. The books were awesome, I just never liked the idea the Emperor used the force to make them all competent.
As for the plot, having to invent very long posts worth of excuses for why things happened a certain way is never a good sign :P
Was it so much competence or just giving them an extra endorphin rush to motivate them? It's been a while since I've read the book and I forget the exact method. If he was keeping them artificially motivated and suddenly that source was promptly cut off it probably would be like going into drug withdrawal.
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Can't we just say this all makes sense from a certain point of view? ;)
Doubt it. We need to pass a law preventing the viewing of Ep 6 after you turn 13.
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Just pretend the Ewoks are Wookies with rocket propelled thermal detonators.
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Just pretend the Ewoks are Wookies with rocket propelled thermal detonators.
I can do better... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jn_J425eo3Q)
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Was it so much competence or just giving them an extra endorphin rush to motivate them? It's been a while since I've read the book and I forget the exact method. If he was keeping them artificially motivated and suddenly that source was promptly cut off it probably would be like going into drug withdrawal.
I think he was coordinating them, making them into an efficient battle machine that operated as one almost instinctively. That's the theory, anyway. I remember the line when Thrawn disclosed the theory to Pellaeon, who naturally didn't like it:
Pellaeon: "But, we carried on the fight after the Emperor died"
Thrawn: "Yes, you carried on fighting. Like cadets."
So I guess it was something akin to that battle meditation thing we saw in the games. I never liked the idea much, it gets the jedi too close to god mode.
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Can't we just say this all makes sense from a certain point of view? ;)
Doubt it. We need to pass a law preventing the viewing of Ep 6 after you turn 13.
I'm almost twice that, and it's still my personal favorite of the trilogy. :p
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Can't we just say this all makes sense from a certain point of view? ;)
Doubt it. We need to pass a law preventing the viewing of Ep 6 after you turn 13.
I'm almost twice that, and it's still my personal favorite of the trilogy. :p
Then, you shall die.
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:(
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Lemme state my author preference first. Zahn, genius, nice writing. Stackpole, genius, not so good writing. Allston, what can I say? Liking him is natural. Traviss isn't too bad either, once you get through the Boba Fetish, the Jedi-bashing and the critical research failures (okay, so that's "not too often").
Someone mentioned female star destroyers. The first Imperial I-class destroyer had a female name (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Executrix) (please don't pair it with the Executor...)
For a good glance at how the underlings aboard DS1 felt, the novel Death Star is a good read. Like how the main gunner went from "Me wanna fire big gun" to "I'm a complete monster" after killing two planets.
For the disorganisation of the Imperial Fleet after Palpatine's death at Endor, Zahn's theory might actually work if you consider that Palpatine could have influenced their minds for a while before the battle even started. With the Emperor dead, the troops might have experienced a short but crippling withdrawal period...
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I find the withdrawal scenario seems pretty reasonable. Emperor Palpatine doesn't seem like someone who relies on subtlety. His influence was probably very heavy-handed and its removal like a kick to the brain.
On a side note, I kinda wish Death Star had been a collection of short stories rather than a novel. Short stories would have allowed the reader to experience the perspectives of many characters, and not just a few. Help describe life on board the station, at every level.
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I find the withdrawal scenario seems pretty reasonable. Emperor Palpatine doesn't seem like someone who relies on subtlety. His influence was probably very heavy-handed and its removal like a kick to the brain.
On a side note, I kinda wish Death Star had been a collection of short stories rather than a novel. Short stories would have allowed the reader to experience the perspectives of many characters, and not just a few. Help describe life on board the station, at every level.
Personally I loved Death Star but I would love to read the short stories idea you mentioned for the reasons you mentioned