Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Vrets on January 16, 2012, 08:29:03 pm
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I'm bored, so here's a thread. Does there have to be a war with Earth? :p Anyways, first, some assumptions and founding thoughts:
Manpower/Population: Vasudan homeworld has been eliminated with massive loss of life, and the remaining settled areas of the GTVA are essentially the colonial remnants of the PVN and GTA. Capella, a "densely populated" system, has a population of 250 million. Sol's population might equal or even exceed that of the GTVA.
Industrial capacity: It's taken for granted that the Earth has been stripped of industrially-useful resources (not an unfair assumption, look at the poor thing now). The remainder of the system, however, is likely highly developed and extremely productive. Gas giants to mine, planets to colonize and build-up, and hundreds of moons to exploit.
Technological development: It all started when the better half of the Lucifer floated sheepishly in front of the Earth ("damn, almost"). There's the potential for Earth to have had developed beam weaponry/etc parallel to the GTVA. Even if not enough useful bits of the Lucifer made it to Sol, development of beam technology is still highly probable. Earth was the industrial core of the GTA...the Avenger prototype traveled to Earth from Antares, and the shield prototypes from distant Beta Cygni! If work was started on beam weapons prior to the destruction of the Lucifer, then it is probable that important materials were already at Sol.
First conclusion is obvious and has been explored by every campaign featuring a return to Sol: Earth is very powerful, and would make a credible opponent in battle with the GTVA; but, perhaps it is more likely that reunion results in a subtle subversion of the GTVA political system over time, with the terran blocs (I've always assumed that the GTVA "General Assembly" was representatives from each bloc) aligning to Earth.
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This sort of idea would make a great Post-Capella campaign. (Just saying) However, with the collapse of the Sol/Delta Serpentis jump node. You're talking about complete political instability in the Sol system for about, at most, 30-50 years assuming that no one was able to re-unite the Sol System. So, unless Sol somehow had re-united into a almost complete utopian like state, then these resources, population, etc wouldn't be very useful as the entire system fell into absolute disorganization chaos and anarchy. Making this argument irrelevant.
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Oh, well, I suppose. Order would be especially difficult to maintain because Sol seemed emptied of military forces at the time of isolation. If there had been military reserves at Earth, then it would not have been neccessary for the Bastion to track the Lucifer en route to Sol. A destroyer waiting in Sol could have met the Lucifer in the tunnel (Sol -->BOOM<---Delta Serpentis).
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A destroyer waiting in Sol could have met the Lucifer in the tunnel (Sol -->BOOM<---Delta Serpentis).
Not necessarily, the destroyer would have had to attack the Lucifer from the front, where 2 of its main beam cannons lie. It would be a rather short battle. Besides, many campaigns (including SOH, BP, and the FS port) all depict an Orion class destroyer waiting for the Lucifer above Earth.
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I don't see any particularly compelling reason for the Sol system to devolve into anarchy. It's the capital of the GTA, and the GTA would probably retain power during isolation without any real challenge. In this case, when Sol is reunited with the other systems, the GTA would probably still see themselves as the rightful governing authority of the colonies.
That said, we know next to nothing about the structure of the FS1-era GTA or the extent of its governing authority and power, so if your campaign requires a period of anarchy or the emergence of a new power in Sol, you can create plenty of perfectly plausible justifications. I just don't see a solar civil war as being a good basic assumption when discussing this topic.
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A destroyer waiting in Sol could have met the Lucifer in the tunnel (Sol -->BOOM<---Delta Serpentis).
Not necessarily, the destroyer would have had to attack the Lucifer from the front, where 2 of its main beam cannons lie. It would be a rather short battle. Besides, many campaigns (including SOH, BP, and the FS port) all depict an Orion class destroyer waiting for the Lucifer above Earth.
in BP that could just be the Bastion catching up.
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A destroyer waiting in Sol could have met the Lucifer in the tunnel (Sol -->BOOM<---Delta Serpentis).
Not necessarily, the destroyer would have had to attack the Lucifer from the front, where 2 of its main beam cannons lie. It would be a rather short battle. Besides, many campaigns (including SOH, BP, and the FS port) all depict an Orion class destroyer waiting for the Lucifer above Earth.
in BP that could just be the Bastion catching up.
Can someone from BP confirm or deny that?
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Yep, it could have been the Bastion catching up.
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or it could be the GTD Washington which i believe, along with some vasudan freighters and an installation were added by the fsport upgrade team in the credits level.
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or it could be the GTD Washington which i believe, along with some vasudan freighters and an installation were added by the fsport upgrade team in the credits level.
And which is a completely fictional, non-canon ship.
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[...]Gas giants to mine, planets to colonize and build-up, and hundreds of moons to exploit.[...]
Excuse me, hundreds of moons? Which solar system are we talking about here? Because I really don't remember our solar system having 200+ moons (which would be the first number to barely qualify for being called "hundreds").
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Earth has 4 :p (http://www.qi.com/talk/viewtopic.php?p=32527)
Big Ass-steroids are moons of the sun too :nervous:
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Obligatory "that's no moon, that's a space station".
The GTA actually might have hundreds of those in Sol. Don't need to be Arcadia-sized.
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Actually, I think that Sol had a decent military force in it, despite the Bastion being the only ship on the other side of the node. To chase Lucifer, Bastion would have to enter the same tunnel as the Shivan flagship, using data from Lucifer's jump to synchronize it's own drive. It was impossible to do from Sol, because this would require prediction instead of tracking.
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Ya know, if the Bastion had entered the node... rather short fight, considering Lucy's shields were down and armament is facing sides / front. Esp, 1st priority would prolly be to disable the beam turrets (now shieldless) and let the Bastion chew her way through the Lucy. Ofc, then perhaps we'd get something like Star Trek: Voyager, where the Bastion and the fighter / bomber groups would be stranded in the middle of who knows where (at least, if the subspace corridor fluctuated wildly enough before severing and they exited in one of those said fluctuations).
Campaign ideas, anyone? lolz
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Because First Fleet is interested in not dying and has a monopoly on combat-capable spacecraft in Sol, if they're even halfway competent a solar civil war is deeply unlikely. Having the only guns remits to you control of the sources of guns or anything else you feel like, so even if the GTA's government goes down in flames, it's likely Sol will remain united and large-scale fighting will not occur.
The Solar System will thus be reasonably intact. Depending on the data of return it's quite possible it will simply join the GTVA, either in the fashion Terran planets did or as a semi-autonomous state like the Vasudan Imperium. People born in Sol are still heavily represented in the GTVA's upper echelons around FS2 in all likelihood and probably will be for another ten or fifteen years. No muss, no fuss, long-lost brothers reunited.
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I don't think there are credible mobile military forces in Sol, at least nothing bigger then Cruisers.
Had they been there, no, they would not have met the Lucifer head on, they could have jumped to Delta S at the moment the Bastion BEGAN its chase in Sirius. They could have moved off the Delta S node, waited for the Lucifer to make transit, and then followed it in, which is essentially what the Bastion was trying to do.
In fact, it would be sheer lunacy for the GTA to have not done this. Ships that meet the Lucifer in combat in normal space during FS1 are by definition useless. Obviously they would meet the Lucifer in battle over Earth if there were no other option, but in this case, there WAS another option. For them not to use that option and instead rely on the dim hope that the Bastion, recalled i from at LEAST two systems away would catch up to the Lucifer borders on insanity.
However, any under construction ships in Sol will still be there, in varying states of development, and I'm sure GTA ground forces and limited transport from commandeered civilian vessels could maintain order until ships are completed, which would then assist in the GTA holding on to power. I find it unlikely that the GTA would have been unable to hold on to power because of some kind of violent uprising.
The economic issues of suddenly severing every trade tie you have however, and the societal issues of being cut off from the colonies so abruptly could topple the GTA through social instability.
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I don't think there are credible mobile military forces in Sol, at least nothing bigger then Cruisers.
Had they been there, no, they would not have met the Lucifer head on, they could have jumped to Delta S at the moment the Bastion BEGAN its chase in Sirius. They could have moved off the Delta S node, waited for the Lucifer to make transit, and then followed it in, which is essentially what the Bastion was trying to do.
In fact, it would be sheer lunacy for the GTA to have not done this. Ships that meet the Lucifer in combat in normal space during FS1 are by definition useless. Obviously they would meet the Lucifer in battle over Earth if there were no other option, but in this case, there WAS another option. For them not to use that option and instead rely on the dim hope that the Bastion, recalled i from at LEAST two systems away would catch up to the Lucifer borders on insanity.
However, any under construction ships in Sol will still be there, in varying states of development, and I'm sure GTA ground forces and limited transport from commandeered civilian vessels could maintain order until ships are completed, which would then assist in the GTA holding on to power. I find it unlikely that the GTA would have been unable to hold on to power because of some kind of violent uprising.
The economic issues of suddenly severing every trade tie you have however, and the societal issues of being cut off from the colonies so abruptly could topple the GTA through social instability.
Don't forget after the fall of the Sol/Delta Serpentis node, the GTA collapsed.
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The external GTA yes, the GTA in Sol? Who can say?
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The external GTA yes, the GTA in Sol? Who can say?
If the external GTA collapsed. Then imagine Sol.
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Well, the 'external GTA' collapsed because it was a collection of colonial ventures from Sol, reeling from 14 years of war.
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The external GTA had a much larger territory to cover, and contrary to Sol, their forces were growing increasingly thinner after the DS-Sol node collapse, given that hostilities with the Shivans didn't end until a few months after, not to mention the HoL left to be dealt with.
In Sol, even if you don't have a single destroyer operational, you can still launch fighters from stations and be anywhere in the territory a few minutes notice. In the rest of the GTA territories, you need at least one base in every controlled system. Which is not exactly a given after years of war and tremendous losses.
Long story short, whatever the Sol/rest fleet ratio is, the rest of the GTA is spread much thinner and hence has potentially much less control over its territory than Sol forces. If anything, Sol should potentially be much stabler politically/militarily-wise than the rest of the GTA.
Not to mention that the whole civilian political leadership and infrastructure was most likely based in Sol. Which means, again, potentially more stability and smoother post-collapse transition.
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The external GTA had a much larger territory to cover, and contrary to Sol, their forces were growing increasingly thinner after the DS-Sol node collapse, given that hostilities with the Shivans didn't end until a few months after, not to mention the HoL left to be dealt with.
In Sol, even if you don't have a single destroyer operational, you can still launch fighters from stations and be anywhere in the territory a few minutes notice. In the rest of the GTA territories, you need at least one base in every controlled system. Which is not exactly a given after years of war and tremendous losses.
Long story short, whatever the Sol/rest fleet ratio is, the rest of the GTA is spread much thinner and hence has potentially much less control over its territory than Sol forces. If anything, Sol should potentially be much stabler politically/militarily-wise than the rest of the GTA.
Not to mention that the whole civilian political leadership and infrastructure was most likely based in Sol. Which means, again, potentially more stability and smoother post-collapse transition.
:yes:
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I don't think there are credible mobile military forces in Sol, at least nothing bigger then Cruisers.
Had they been there, no, they would not have met the Lucifer head on, they could have jumped to Delta S at the moment the Bastion BEGAN its chase in Sirius. They could have moved off the Delta S node, waited for the Lucifer to make transit, and then followed it in, which is essentially what the Bastion was trying to do.
In fact, it would be sheer lunacy for the GTA to have not done this. Ships that meet the Lucifer in combat in normal space during FS1 are by definition useless. Obviously they would meet the Lucifer in battle over Earth if there were no other option, but in this case, there WAS another option. For them not to use that option and instead rely on the dim hope that the Bastion, recalled i from at LEAST two systems away would catch up to the Lucifer borders on insanity.
Recall that the Bastion was ambushed on its two-system scramble to Sol by a Demon, a Typhon, and numerous Shivan wings of unknown origin. Delta Serpentis was -not- a secure system. It would have been very ill advised to move whatever forces were defending Sol out of the system; they'd just get torn apart and then the Shivans wouldn't even need the Lucifer to walk all over Sol.
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And the HoL. We know they had at least one Typhon in Delta Serpentis, which is quite a significant force.
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The entire First Fleet was statioend at Sol. Nuff said.
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That's most likely, or at least the core elements of it. However I am most curious to know where the hell they were when the Lucifer died instead of blockading the node. I know there were two other nodes to cover, at least in FS1 canon but still, there wasn't a single ship to be seen at the node during the Endgame cutscene.
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Perhaps they were waiting with their drives hot, and would jump to whatever node Lucifer came out of.
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Perhaps they were waiting with their drives hot, and would jump to whatever node Lucifer came out of.
... Don't they kind of know that its going to come from Delta Serpentis?
GTA Command: Admiral Shima is chasing the Lucifer through Delta Serpentis trying to intercept it before it reaches earth!
First Fleet Command: Excellent! We'll make sure to cover the Deneb and Beta Aquilae nodes in case the Lucifer comes through there!
/what?
I get maybe covering against a flanking attack from Shivan held Deneb, but NOTHING at the DS node?
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I get maybe covering against a flanking attack from Shivan held Deneb, but NOTHING at the DS node?
Quite reasonable in my view, once the Lucifer got to Sol it was game over, as far as Earth was concerned, up against an invincible superdestroyer with far superior weaponry all that would happen if you sent a fleet against them would be the destruction of your fleet. Best to save your forces until it leaves the system and send bombers in after it and try to take it out in Subspace, at least the species might survive in that scenario. We saw in Freespace 2 that the GTA actually does pretty well without the resources of Sol, sending in absolutely everything the GTA had left in Sol would have been pissing all that way on a wing and a prayer.
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I get maybe covering against a flanking attack from Shivan held Deneb, but NOTHING at the DS node?
What would it accomplish to engage it at the node? It's still invincible. You resources are better spent guarding what evacuation convoys you can assemble.
Indeed the keeping of any cruisers or destroyers in Sol rather than sending the heavies to Delta Serpentis to try and secure it so the Bastion can get through is doubly stupid. They can only go squish when the Lucifer arrives. In fact, considering the Lucifer's power, giving it important-looking things it can actually shoot its big guns at is pretty stupid because they'll not only get killed but they'll get everything around them killed faster.
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Ever think the fleet wasn't at the node because that would require extra resources in order to put them into the cutscene? It was cheaper just to leave them out and not have to deal with it!
And as for what NGTM said, assisting in the evacuation of Earth seems far more likely (which is what I was going to type up until I saw him already making that point)
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Ever think the fleet wasn't at the node because that would require extra resources in order to put them into the cutscene? It was cheaper just to leave them out and not have to deal with it!
Well yeah, obviously, but you can't make a good debate out of mundane real-world limitations. :p
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I get maybe covering against a flanking attack from Shivan held Deneb, but NOTHING at the DS node?
What would it accomplish to engage it at the node? It's still invincible. You resources are better spent guarding what evacuation convoys you can assemble.
Indeed the keeping of any cruisers or destroyers in Sol rather than sending the heavies to Delta Serpentis to try and secure it so the Bastion can get through is doubly stupid. They can only go squish when the Lucifer arrives. In fact, considering the Lucifer's power, giving it important-looking things it can actually shoot its big guns at is pretty stupid because they'll not only get killed but they'll get everything around them killed faster.
That's only if Delta Serpentis could realistically be secured before the Bastion and Lucifer arrived. Otherwise First Fleet would be abandoning the tremendous logistical advantage of Sol's infrastructure and leaving their homeworld open to attack by the HoL or Shivan advance forces in the meantime.
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I get maybe covering against a flanking attack from Shivan held Deneb, but NOTHING at the DS node?
What would it accomplish to engage it at the node? It's still invincible. You resources are better spent guarding what evacuation convoys you can assemble.
Indeed the keeping of any cruisers or destroyers in Sol rather than sending the heavies to Delta Serpentis to try and secure it so the Bastion can get through is doubly stupid. They can only go squish when the Lucifer arrives. In fact, considering the Lucifer's power, giving it important-looking things it can actually shoot its big guns at is pretty stupid because they'll not only get killed but they'll get everything around them killed faster.
That's only if Delta Serpentis could realistically be secured before the Bastion and Lucifer arrived. Otherwise First Fleet would be abandoning the tremendous logistical advantage of Sol's infrastructure and leaving their homeworld open to attack by the HoL or Shivan advance forces in the meantime.
This isn't Beta Cygni, this is SOL. There should at least be a picket force on the node 24/7 so if an angry squadron of kamikze HoL arrive they dont kill innocent people before the fleet could respond.
And in response to NGM, my original argument was that the heavies SHOULD go to DS and secure that area in advance of the Lucifer, I was merely stating that if they didn't do that, there should have been something at the DS node
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This isn't Beta Cygni, this is SOL. There should at least be a picket force on the node 24/7 so if an angry squadron of kamikze HoL arrive they dont kill innocent people before the fleet could respond.
Ending cutscene for fs1 says otherwise.
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That's only if Delta Serpentis could realistically be secured before the Bastion and Lucifer arrived. Otherwise First Fleet would be abandoning the tremendous logistical advantage of Sol's infrastructure and leaving their homeworld open to attack by the HoL or Shivan advance forces in the meantime.
If nothing else you can lurk and secure the node itself for the Bastion's passage or draw some fire.
The logistical advantage you posit isn't. Warships must be able to operate on their own for some period of time to be useful as warship, at least a couple weeks, probably more.
I'm also not proposing to strip Sol; I'm saying send the heavies out of the system, the big, flashy, high-value targets. Things the Lucifer will be tempted to jump on. By the end of FS1 the pendulum has swung entirely to the fighter as a means of decision. Keep your fighters to guard the evacuation, as they will not tempt the Lucifer into attacking the convoys they're with because the Lucifer can't fight them effectively. That is more than enough security at this stage of the war.
Lest we forget, you proved that in The Hammer and The Anvil.
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It makes little sense to suggest the entire Sol System would collapse. To clarify an earlier point, there are hundreds of moons, several planetoids (dwarf planets) and even more resources beyond in the Oort Cloud. Subspace jumps within the system are still possible, so there's no reason to suggest the system would just die. Especially considering the Terran government was already located on Earth.
My question is, how far is the nearest system (Delta Serpentis?)? Could actual messages by sent from the GTVA to Earth or vice versa, albeit several years of waiting for the message traveling at the speed of light to reach one party. Obviously if they are further than 32 light years, nobody would have heard from either side. Though, you would assume otherwise, they would send each other a message of what's happening on either side.
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Alpha Cenaturi does not have a subspace node to Sol, but it is occupied by the GTA and GTVA. Messages could be sent.
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Gah, beaten.
My question is, how far is the nearest system (Delta Serpentis?)? Could actual messages by sent from the GTVA to Earth or vice versa, albeit several years of waiting for the message traveling at the speed of light to reach one party. Obviously if they are further than 32 light years, nobody would have heard from either side. Though, you would assume otherwise, they would send each other a message of what's happening on either side.
Alpha Centauri (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_centauri) is the closest star system to the Sun at about 4.37 light-years, and it happens to be one of the systems in FS. From a practical standpoint, there's no physical reason why Sol and the GTVA wouldn't have been able to send traditional EM signals back-and-forth with a 9-year round-trip lag time. The fact that the game never mentions this happening has led to a decent amount of fan speculation as to why. The most likely possibilities I can think of myself are that there's some sort of physical/subspace anomaly in the intervening space that disrupts communication attempts...or that the GTVA really has heard from Sol, but the contents are disturbing enough that they've kept everything tightly classified.
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God damned Rho classified crap