Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: arjuna 1 on February 18, 2012, 12:49:11 pm
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Snipes tolds you he knew about the SOC operations and he still interfered with the mission and that he is a renegade. But for some reason i don't believe him. What if Ahmose really didn't know about the SOC in Polaris and the reason they want you to kill the Vasudans it's because they wanted Bosch to escape again?
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I suppose its possible, but there really is not any evidence to suggest that. Based on the information Snipes was given, he is a renagade. There is really no way of knowing he was lied to.
The issues that arise is that the convoys location could only have been leaked by an SOC agent... meaning Ahmose MUST have had access to that information. The likely hood of Ahmose and his battle group just accidently stumbling upon The Iceni is non-existant.
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Ahmose is an admiral so he's at least got to know stuff an enlisted pilot wouldn't because he has a higher level of authorization, maybe level Gamma? i don't know which way it goes.
actually, go to your nearest military base and ask about "secret weapons" along with an elaborate excuse. Higher-ups then and today are always hiding something.
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I've always thought it odd that A: Ahmose would know about SOC operations (he don't have need to know, and the GTVA has always been crap at deciding people who actually need to know need to know), and B: that Snipes would know he had been ordered not to attack the Iceni.
The second one seems particularly unlikely. Why would Snipes know this? How?
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i would guess he was told "no one will attack you"
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i would guess he was told "no one will attack you"
Yes, but his knowledge can't be current. He can't just call Terran Command and ask for an update. Anything he's been told is going to be at least a day old, probably more. That might as well be from last century in the fluid tactical and strategic situation that is the collapsing NTF. (Which would incidentally only foul his lines of communication more.)
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just replayed that bit of the campaign. the way all the briefings/debriefings and in-mission chat reads, it seems snipes DOES have basically real-time and constant contact with terran command. the debriefing specifically calls out ahmose as "having full knowledge of our activities here" and further stating that he is facing court martial, and that the pilots followed him knowing full well he was disobeying orders.
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The bad news is we're in a lot more danger than I think you realize. The Vasudan warships were under the command of Admiral Ahmose, who had full knowledge of our activities. The fact the Vasudans knew the exact time and position of the Iceni's departure has made the rebels just a little suspicious.
As usual, the GTVA is overplaying its hand. Ahmose and his subordinates now face a court martial for insubordination. The rebs are all over that one. Not only did the Admiral know the position of the Iceni, he wasn't authorized to act on that information. Our squadron will be high on the NTF's list of suspects.
One more thing. The pilots under Ahmose's command had been informed of his renegade status before they launched their attack. Under these circumstances, we had little choice but to return fire or blow the entire operation.
Sounds to me like the fact that the Admiral exceeded his authority is something that is well known by the NTF.
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Sounds to me like the fact that the Admiral exceeded his authority is something that is well known by the NTF.
Knowledge demonstrated after the fact. That's useless to the discussion how Snipes knew it at the time.
When the first wing jumps in, Snipes has no way of knowing that things haven't progressed to the point where the GTVA has decided to go "**** it" and take the NTF off at the head. The situation at that moment is extremely fluid, the NTF is falling apart and the Shivans are still a going concern back by Capella. You're under deep cover (you wouldn't be able to fly a fighter for the NTF otherwise), so both you and Snipes almost have to be working off of information from the GTVA side that has been rehandled many times, with the delay inherent.
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Firstly, I was replying to Klaustrophobia.
Secondly, you make a great many assumptions. If there is no way to track subspace transmissions for instance, there is no reason Snipes couldn't be in direct contact with GTVA command over the radio of his fighter. The only way the NTF would ever find that out was if they bugged his fighter or record all cockpit communication.
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record all cockpit communication.
That ain't an assumption, that's standard operating procedure now and recording isn't likely to ever change as the recorders get smaller and the number of craft and accidents stays the same or gets bigger. (How many times have you been hit by wingmen, again?) He'd have to bypass it just to talk to you in the missions.
If there is no way to track subspace transmissions for instance, there is no reason Snipes couldn't be in direct contact with GTVA command over the radio of his fighter.
If that were true, why do you only come into contact with Terran Command after your cover has been thoroughly blown? Why does only Snipes speak to you via his "disguised as targeting data" doohicky in every mission (in fact why even have the doohicky?), why aren't you supported by Terran Command? Your statement flies in the face of the internal logic of SOC Loop 1.
And it's not enough to not be able to track/intercept, you'd have to be able to not detect them period; otherwise other ships in the area could notice you were transmitting and know you shouldn't be/the NTF could timestamp it to compare to authorized transmissions they could identify a legit purpose for.
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That ain't an assumption, that's standard operating procedure now and recording isn't likely to ever change as the recorders get smaller and the number of craft and accidents stays the same or gets bigger. He'd have to bypass it just to talk to you in the missions.
And FS2 is always respectful of how things work in real life.
Even if the NTF do record all cockpit conversations, (and that is an assumption), Snipes obviously has somehow disabled that in both your craft and his own. Furthermore he's obviously disabled it in such a way that it doesn't instantly draw suspicion on him the second the NTF start thinking that his squadron might contain a spy.
That they don't record communications is the option I find more believable.
If that were true, why do you only come into contact with Terran Command after your cover has been thoroughly blown? Why does only Snipes speak to you via his "disguised as targeting data" doohicky in every mission, why aren't you supported by Terran Command? Your statement flies in the face of the internal logic of SOC Loop 1.
Double the number of people talking to Terran Command and you double the number of people who can get caught talking to Terran Command. Who's to say Snipes doesn't have a long distance version of the same dohickey he used to talk to you. Who's to say it also doesn't register as targeting data? There are several reasons why Snipes might have one and you don't.
Like I said, you're making massive assumptions and then assuming that anyone who contradicts you hasn't thought things through.
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And FS2 is always respectful of how things work in real life.
FS2, like most works of fiction, runs on Like Reality Unless Noted so it doesn't spend twenty years doing exposition.
I should not have to explain that to you. You're smarter than that.
Even if the NTF do record all cockpit conversations, (and that is an assumption), Snipes obviously has somehow disabled that in both your craft and his own. Furthermore he's obviously disabled it in such a way that it doesn't instantly draw suspicion on him the second the NTF start thinking that his squadron might contain a spy.
Considering he's able to scramble communications between you and hide them as targeting data, this doesn't sound hard. Your communications systems have already been significantly altered from their standard operating modes and that's not detectable either.
The door is wide open.
That they don't record communications is the option I find more believable.
Why? For purposes of arguing with me alone?
As noted: Electronic trickery is already in play. Your craft's communications systems have already been noticeably tampered with simply to allow you and Snipes to talk securely and unobtrusively. This wouldn't even be necessary unless NTF ships maintained accurate electronic records of communications (there's that pesky recording again!), as in the heat of combat a scrambled transmission from one fighter to another probably isn't something of note. Snipes also uses his secure communications method even when there are no witnesses, c.f. Love The Treason, suggesting he has more to get around than just being seen talking to you by others.
Double the number of people talking to Terran Command and you double the number of people who can get caught talking to Terran Command.
And if you can get caught talking to Terran Command directly and are a highly placed critical intelligence asset, you don't talk to Terran Command directly at all. The resources the GTVA was willing to commit to extract you alive, to extract the Sunder, to extract Snipes during Loop 2, indicate that you and he are of great value and as such will not be placed at casual risk such a method of communication would pose.
There is an argument here, that Snipes would be trusted with such a method of communication since as a long-term trained operative of SOC he would be trusted to know when its use was necessary...but such an argument boils down to the GTVA's faith he won't use it. Which as far as we know he never did, if he did had it, which he probably didn't considering his training and job. (And don't cite the Grall, that could easily have been the transport's own communication systems.)
Who's to say Snipes doesn't have a long distance version of the same dohickey he used to talk to you.
See above. See below. See anyone with a basic understanding of how intelligence operations work.
Who's to say it also doesn't register as targeting data?
Because there are attack my target commands within the comm menu. Because your fighter is presumably like all other friendly fighters and when targeted by a friendly broadcasts to them what you are attacking. Because it's only useful information to someone directly engaged in combat. Because a stream of such data from outside the battle zone could be picked up by too many people regardless of the tightness of the beam, all it takes is another fighter passing in front of yours relative to the source. Because they would notice the lack of a ship it's being transmitted from. Because without a direct view of the battlefield the disguising of it as targeting data can be easily ****ed up to not match battlefield conditions. Because there's no reason to be beaming targeting data off into deep space.
Like I said, you're making massive assumptions and then assuming that anyone who contradicts you hasn't thought things through.
If you will not explain your reasoning, why should I take it seriously? I may make assumptions, but they are good ones. Yours, on the other hand, appear adopted solely so you can argue with me, an impression reinforced by the fact you don't explain them. And that I can so easily think up reasons why they don't make sense.
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Sometimes I wonder why I bother with you. You're not the only person on this thread allowed to have an opinion. You're certainly not allowed to back up yours in this fashion. If you can't maintained a civilised tone, you'll be monkeyed.
The NTF may record transmissions but it is quite clear they DO NOT record all sounds in the cockpit. If they did then Snipes would either have to turn that off, or find some way to block that machine every time he sends you a message. That's pretty retarded as there would be obvious gaps in the recordings every single time he spoke to you. So as I originally stated there's no reason to believe that Snipes can't be using some device in his fighter allowing him to communicate in real time with command.
As for your comment about beaming data into deep space, again we have the assumption that the NTF can even detect that his fighter is beaming anything into deep space. As I was trying to point out, the issue is whether the NTF can detect subspace transmissions in the first place or whether they simply record everything said over the ship's radio. If it's the latter then we're back to whether or not Snipes has some way to make long distance transmissions or not.
You can argue all you like that he wouldn't use it but the question then becomes why the hell not? Being able to communicate directly with your superiors and receive up to date intel and orders while cutting out the middle-men (who easily could be double agents) is a very useful ability for a spy. Why wouldn't you use that if it was untracable?
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I'm gonna stick my nose in here, because these petty arguments are all to common on this forum.
Sometimes I wonder why I bother with you. You're not the only person on this thread allowed to have an opinion. You're certainly not allowed to back up yours in this fashion. If you can't maintained a civilised tone, you'll be monkeyed.
Opinions are exactly what is being posted. Seeing a threat of power like this is just outrageous.
The NTF may record transmissions but it is quite clear they DO NOT record all sounds in the cockpit. If they did then Snipes would either have to turn that off, or find some way to block that machine every time he sends you a message. That's pretty retarded as there would be obvious gaps in the recordings every single time he spoke to you. So as I originally stated there's no reason to believe that Snipes can't be using some device in his fighter allowing him to communicate in real time with command.
Recording of sounds and flight data is standard on all commercial airliners today, and ships as well. Assuming they don't exist in FS is literally crazy. There is zero reason to backtrack from this technology. The benefit from this sort of data is beyond useful in any number of situations.
This forum gets more stuck up and ignorant every day. I don't post often, but points like these just make me think "Are you clueless?"
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Well.. if the flight sounds are recorded then the NTF would have been onto Snipes and Alpha 1 pretty early on. So meh, I could care a less about whether or not we do it, it's pretty clear the NTF doesn't. Or they are just really, really stupid to not understand what Snipes and Alpha 1 were talking about during any of the missions.
Also, I do generally perceive NGTM-1R as a hostile arguer around here and reflect Kara's sentiments.
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If they were recording flight sounds and stuff, couldn't Snipes just loop some background sound into the recorder while he communicates? Like how they spoof surveillance cameras in the movies? I'm sure he has the capability, being a high-level intelligence operative.
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Opinions are exactly what is being posted. Seeing a threat of power like this is just outrageous.
He can post his opinion. I never said he couldn't. He just can't belittle anyone who happens to hold a different one. I've seen him do that numerous times and quite frankly, I've had enough of it. It stiffles discussion since people either end up in a stupid argument with him or leave the thread and don't come back. All I'm asking for is civilised discussion. Is that really something you're against?
Recording of sounds and flight data is standard on all commercial airliners today, and ships as well. Assuming they don't exist in FS is literally crazy. There is zero reason to backtrack from this technology. The benefit from this sort of data is beyond useful in any number of situations.
Zero reason or not, if the NTF play Snipes cockpit recordings then they would instantly know he's a spy. So let me hear your explaination for how Snipes is able to communicate with you if every word he says is being recorded.
This forum gets more stuck up and ignorant every day. I don't post often, but points like these just make me think "Are you clueless?"
See it's this kind of nonsense that I had a go at NGTM-1R about. I've not insulted you. Why do you feel the need to insult me? Even though you've failed to understand a point I would have thought I'd made crystal clear earlier. Even though you've not actually added anything to the discussion other that proving you haven't actually understood my post. Instead of insults, I've simply restated it in a different way. Courtesy costs nothing.
If they were recording flight sounds and stuff, couldn't Snipes just loop some background sound into the recorder while he communicates? Like how they spoof surveillance cameras in the movies? I'm sure he has the capability, being a high-level intelligence operative.
Sure but then we're back to exactly the point I made in the first post I made on the subject. If he can do that for short range comms, why can't he for long range?
Here's another point to think about. What happened in FS2 is canon. Snipes obviously has access to this information somehow. This is indisputably canon. If not by direct communications with Command, how do you explain it?
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I'm starting to feel like the annual HLP Head-Butting Rite of Spring has arrived a few weeks early. Must be the goofy warm weather. :p
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I'm starting to feel like the annual HLP Head-Butting Rite of Spring has arrived a few weeks early. Must be the goofy warm weather. :p
Rite? i haven't been here long enough :lol:
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I'm starting to feel like the annual HLP Head-Butting Rite of Spring has arrived a few weeks early. Must be the goofy warm weather. :p
That's why I'm telling people who can't maintain a civilised tone that they'll be taking their rutting on a trip to monkeyville. There's really no reason why a discussion on Admiral Ahmose should descend into an argument. It's not even like he's a real political figure. :p
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Since when have people needed a real reason to get heated about arguments over trivial matters? :rolleyes:
However, it does seem that there can't really be any amount of discussion about anything on HLP without at least a little bit of belittling. I find it irritating and stupid, however it appears I'm not immune, judging on my reading of my own posts... I guess it's that we are all to keen to either take offense where none is meant and/or to give offense where none is warranted.
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Agreed with the above sentiment - it's more or less why I refrain from posting a lot nowadays. I digress, personally I think it's more likely that as a deep cover operative, Snipes/Alfawun would be operating off of rehandled information for a lot of the time, simply because it's the safer way of going about it (as someone pointed out earlier).
Despite that, I doubt Ahmose would've known a great deal about ETAK and any of the other crap that's keeping Bosch alive in the eyes of the rest of the GTVA. Given this, I'm sure a great many other Officers would've made the call to go in guns blazing if they thought they had a credible chance of taking down the Iceni and in their eyes, come pretty close to winning the war even despite what Command had said.
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However, it does seem that there can't really be any amount of discussion about anything on HLP without at least a little bit of belittling. I find it irritating and stupid, however it appears I'm not immune, judging on my reading of my own posts... I guess it's that we are all to keen to either take offense where none is meant and/or to give offense where none is warranted.
Belittling is pretty hard to avoid considering that it's human nature. HLP is actually one of the better forums to manage its occurrence. And you are certainly correct that the community is better served by giving everyone the benefit of the doubt.
That said, karajorma, I honestly don't see any belittling in what NGTM1R is saying. I see a well-reasoned argument between two people with very strong opinions on a subject. What I do see is an admin threatening to monkey his opponent under the guise of enforcing civility, simply because he can't manage to win an argument. :p And I disapprove of that even more than I disapprove of belittling.
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HLP is actually one of the better forums to manage its occurrence
it really isn't
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Say, which other forums are better? The only ones I've dared to venture into are certainly worse.... either that or about as dead as one of our abandoned project sub-forums. :P (That was a serious question, BTW, as I've not really run across many forums as civilized as HLP and I would mind finding more).
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That said, karajorma, I honestly don't see any belittling in what NGTM1R is saying. I see a well-reasoned argument between two people with very strong opinions on a subject. What I do see is an admin threatening to monkey his opponent under the guise of enforcing civility, simply because he can't manage to win an argument. :p And I disapprove of that even more than I disapprove of belittling.
You don't see a constant attempt to claim my entire argument was invented for the express purpose of arguing with him? That's not a civil argument. Especially as in both that post and the next one I pointed out exactly why he was wrong on whether the GTVA records cockpit sounds or not. I'm quite capable of winning this argument. I just don't want to have to put up with a ridiculously belligerent attitude in order to do it.
The simple fact is that several people have told me that they don't bother replying to NGTM-1R or any thread he's involved in because of his attitude. It's not worth arguing with someone who will refuse to consider that anyone else might also be right. I've personally had enough of that. 1 member does not get to dictate who posts simply by being a big enough dick that no one else wants to argue with him.
Lastly, I'd have threatened to monkey NGTM-1R over this discussion even if I hadn't been involved. So it's definitely not personal. Hell, he only got a walk on the Whitney Houston thread precisely because I was involved. I was told by several people he deserved a banning on that one but since the thread was closed I didn't do anything about it.
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You don't see a constant attempt to claim my entire argument was invented for the express purpose of arguing with him? That's not a civil argument.
You were, by your own admission, replying to someone else. You refused to explain your reasoning and simply poked holes.
You slung mud; a viable alternative theory in this context was not presented. Yes, I'm hostile to that; a statement is not an argument, arguments require supporting detail and evidence. I offered supporting evidence for my opinion (citing FS2 missions with supporting evidence i.e. the use of secure comms even outside the presence of witnesses and the behavior of reality in both spy operations and flight/ship data records) and asked why you didn't offer any for yours.
You then threatened to monkey me.
If you want to actually discussion an issue, then discuss it. Explain your reasoning and offer evidence to support it, do not simply deny that your opponent is competent.
On a personal note, if you dislike the feeling of being browbeaten, then I would remind you that you're not unfond of engaging in it yourself; you've claimed I've offered unsupported assertion throughout this discussion when I've consistently offered supporting detail and evidence when challenged. Heal thyself, administrator.
1 member does not get to dictate who posts simply by being a big enough dick that no one else wants to argue with him.
You've been allowing Trashman to do this for years. (Dear god, maybe a decade.) I'm pretty sure I'm an order of magnitude more reasonable and less offensive than Trash.
And you are essentially whipping out a big enough dick and claiming you're not dictating who posts.
If you want my honest opinion of what happened in a story context, Snipes guessed his original orders were still operative, and because you successfully defended the Iceni, it was fiat accompli and there was nothing to be done about it either way. If Snipes and you had joined the attack on the Iceni and succeeded, I expect you would have been held blameless, and Admiral Ahmose might have come in for minor censure, but it would still be fiat accompli and you and Snipes would have gone on to successful and highly-placed careers as the people who killed Aken Bosch and ended the NTF.
If you want to know what I think really happened, though, I think Snipes knew because The Plot Demanded It. :v: did not stop to consider that he really should not have current and up-to-date information in the situation they'd set up. All they knew was that they wanted to throw out more about ETAK and that ETAK was supposed to play a big role in the story still to come (maybe up to FS3?), so was Bosch, so the player wasn't allowed to break all their storytelling work here. The situation does not completely make sense because the story is responding to overt manipulation by the writer.
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That said, karajorma, I honestly don't see any belittling in what NGTM1R is saying. I see a well-reasoned argument between two people with very strong opinions on a subject. What I do see is an admin threatening to monkey his opponent under the guise of enforcing civility, simply because he can't manage to win an argument. :p And I disapprove of that even more than I disapprove of belittling.
You don't see a constant attempt to claim my entire argument was invented for the express purpose of arguing with him? That's not a civil argument. Especially as in both that post and the next one I pointed out exactly why he was wrong on whether the GTVA records cockpit sounds or not. I'm quite capable of winning this argument. I just don't want to have to put up with a ridiculously belligerent attitude in order to do it.
The simple fact is that several people have told me that they don't bother replying to NGTM-1R or any thread he's involved in because of his attitude. It's not worth arguing with someone who will refuse to consider that anyone else might also be right. I've personally had enough of that. 1 member does not get to dictate who posts simply by being a big enough dick that no one else wants to argue with him.
Lastly, I'd have threatened to monkey NGTM-1R over this discussion even if I hadn't been involved. So it's definitely not personal. Hell, he only got a walk on the Whitney Houston thread precisely because I was involved. I was told by several people he deserved a banning on that one but since the thread was closed I didn't do anything about it.
.... back at you.
i avoid threads with YOU involved in them for pretty much the exact reasons you just threw out for NGTM-1R. you're not the only one i do this for, but you are the only one with admin powers that threatens to use them. and it happens alarmingly frequently. to the point i've considered more than once PMing the other admins about taking yours away. i never did because i don't know how the admin heirarchy works here. if you think he's not listening to you, then just leave the thread. why bother? threatening to ban someone who got in an argument with you is despicable and needs to stop NOW. is it REALLY that important that you prove yourself correct?
and for the record, there is no canon evidence proving EITHER of you correct. there's just bits you can try to draw inferences from. either way. inferences != proof.
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Oh hai.
*click*
We really don't need this. Disagreements and the like are one thing. Expositions for or against power and or how it is used on the other hand, that (in my opinion) is going a bit too far.
And, while I severely dislike stopping spirited conversations, I do encourage anybody that looks to have the ORIGINAL topic in a general discussion to feel free to create another thread on it with my apologies.
And while it is not HLP policy to advocate deletion of topics, I will take the risk of saying that I don't want to see any other follow up on this specific topics devolution. You can PM me if you like, but no 'last minute' words. It's now locked, let's leave it that way.
If disagreements can't be made civilly, then perhaps they should not be made at all. And that is something that should be possible regardless of "status".
And yes, this also means that I will draw the ire of telling any other admins involved here that no, they don't get to leverage or exercise their powers. Because frankly, if anybody is going to do a ban or a monkey in regards to a conversation that an Admin is involved in, the ONLY way that should EVER be done is NEVER by the Admin actually involved IN the conversation. Because then it is personal, and NOT a matter of policy.
And last I checked, it wasn't our policy to do things out of personal reasons.
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I know you said no last words but I feel I should point out that I never said *I* would monkey him. I always refer another admin to a thread in which I'm involved for a second opinion even if I personally monkey the user. Feel free to check with Goober as it's usually him.
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...
/me sighs