Hard Light Productions Forums
Hosted Projects - Standalone => Diaspora => Topic started by: NickAragua on September 09, 2012, 01:38:54 am
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Hi folks
First, I wanted to congratulate the team that developed Diaspora on a job extremely well done. I was able to get into the fight quickly, skip cutscenes I've already seen, and take out some toasters. The graphics look awesome, and I'm digging the near-newtonian flight physics.
One question: Is there a way to reload your ammo in flight? I'm on mission 2 (the one where you have to blow up the base star's missile launchers), there are 12 launchers to blow up and only 6 AGM warheads. Granted, it looks like the base star will get its clock cleaned just fine even if I just take out the six launchers, but still. Plus, I want that bonus objective. :D
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I feel ya man, I just finished that one with 3 launchers to go, and Red and Blue squadrons doing who-knows-what-but-not-taking-out-those-frakking-turrets.
But it's been asked before, and there are no mid-mission reloads.
Source: http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=81859.msg1635637#msg1635637
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It's tricky, but doable :)
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No in-flight reloads. In Diaspora you need to work with what you have, be careful when to squeeze that trigger, and adjust your tactics. One of the things to get over would be the leave the gamer's mindset of achieving every objective out there. In "real" war this almost never happens - but the greatest objective here is to compromise the basestar's firepower to some degree. Nobody expects you to destroy all turrets, but decreasing their number helps the Theseus take less damage. In fact, there are other targets on the basestar you could be using your ordinance on and still complete the mission just fine...
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Well, from what I've seen, you could complete the mission just going after Raiders and intercepting whatever nukes pop up. As mentioned in a different thread, Basestars aren't much of a threat neither in Diaspora nor in the show.
I'd say that in-mission reloads would be a good idea for R2. You could touch down in the flightpod, get rearmed, perhaps slightly patched up and take off again. This would allow much longer and more intense missions which would normally cause you to run out of ammo. Also, remember that a combat landing and rearming takes you out of battle for a while, so this wouldn't be a game breaker.
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I'd say that in-mission reloads would be a good idea for R2. You could touch down in the flightpod, get rearmed, perhaps slightly patched up and take off again. This would allow much longer and more intense missions which would normally cause you to run out of ammo. Also, remember that a combat landing and rearming takes you out of battle for a while, so this wouldn't be a game breaker.
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No in-flight reloads. In Diaspora you need to work with what you have, be careful when to squeeze that trigger, and adjust your tactics.
^this.
None of the missions in Shattered Armistice is that long to require in-flight reloads.
Having such a system in each and every mission would allow player to spray and pray a la FS2 and diminish the BSG feel we were aimin' for.
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Indeed. Based on canon sources (David Bassom's Battlestar Galactica: The Official Companion) we're apparently being very generous in fact. The MK II is supposed to have a 800 round magazine. Even if that is per cannon, that's still only 1600 rounds. The MK VII you have carries 3000, nearly double that.
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Under special circumstances in future releases we may allow for an in-mission reload, but it will never be whenever the player feels like it. Getting used to working with what you have is part of the experience. I realize that for anyone used to regular FS2 gameplay this is a bit of a shock, and asking for a reload is the first instinct, but it's the wrong one. You have enough ammo to complete every mission thrown at you.
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Apart from the mission where you have to disarm the basestar, I find missiles useless and the Ammo you get to work with is more then enough to accomplish your task.
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Yes, the missile seems useless to me too, but that's the same for every mod/tc using the freespace engine.
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None of the missions in Shattered Armistice is that long to require in-flight reloads.
Having such a system in each and every mission would allow player to spray and pray a la FS2 and diminish the BSG feel we were aimin' for.
You're right, but I said "R2", not "The next patch". The next campaign could feature missions long enough to make rearming necessary.
Under special circumstances in future releases we may allow for an in-mission reload, but it will never be whenever the player feels like it. Getting used to working with what you have is part of the experience. I realize that for anyone used to regular FS2 gameplay this is a bit of a shock, and asking for a reload is the first instinct, but it's the wrong one. You have enough ammo to complete every mission thrown at you.
I'd rather restrict the number of reloads available per mission, or even better, a global restriction through the entire campaign. If you spray, launch missile massacres and reload every minute, you'd find yourself flying with a single gun (and no reloads) by 5th mission. There are variables which could be used for tracking missile supply and gun ammo on a campaign-wide scale, so if you have 50 missiles and fire 4, you have 46 missiles on the next mission. If you burn through 40 missiles though, you'd end up flying the rest of the campaign with 10 of them. The system used for guns would have to be a bit more complicated (due to how engine handles ammo), but also doable to some degree.
Yes, the missile seems useless to me too, but that's the same for every mod/tc using the freespace engine.
Not really, some TCs (DE, for example) make missiles really effective. Diaspora ones are indeed rather pathetic though.
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So in other words we replace a problem where people pray and spray and run out of ammo making them unable to finish the mission with a problem where people pray and spray and run out of ammo making them unable to finish the campaign? :p
To be honest, reloads are not going to appear on a per-mission basis with anything close to the regularity required to do something like that. Nor should they.
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To be honest, all of that sounds awful. The only way I see how this could be believably be done is to have a munitions Raptor that'll reload your KEWs for a particularly long mission. Still, I'd rather play two shorter missions where you land to reload in the hangar. Mid-mission hangar reloads would be very unrealistic because if you would actually need to be towed to an elevator and lowered into the hangar deck, towed around, rearmed, then towed to a launch tube. That would take, what, a minimum of 10 minutes?
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...and a Raptor really doesn't have the equipment to do reloads.
There is a plan for a Raptor like utility craft that could do the task for long missions but it wouldn't be done like FreeSpace where support is on demand. More like rearming in long Wing Commander missions.
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Would this be a relation of the sometimes-mentioned, never-seen "tanker bird" from the show?
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Just as a little perspective:
The Vought F4U Corsair, which is roughly the same size as a Viper carried roughly 200-450 rounds per gun depending on fuel and ordinance load out. They basically had only 32 seconds worth of firing time. Vipers are carrying 1000 rounds per gun with about 142 seconds worth of firing time. The hardpoints on a VIIE are in line with modern jets that are typically three times the size of a Viper.
In short you're carrying an extremely generous amount of ammunition and external stores in Diaspora.
Still you can always tell "Pappy" Boyington you need in flight reloads...
(http://www.yuma.usmc.mil/desertwarrior/2011/09/29/HiRes2.jpg)
he looks sympathetic...
maybe
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Thanks for the replies, folks. Mostly, I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing some obvious "duh, this is how you rearm" feature. I'm perfectly fine with not having in-flight reloads, just means that I'll need to aim a little more carefully and be satisfied with taking down six turrets. Frankly, if two craft are more or less evenly matched, a 50% firepower reduction for one craft should be just fine - I don't really need 100% completion, I just want to win. :D
I'd say that in-mission reloads would be a good idea for R2. You could touch down in the flightpod, get rearmed, perhaps slightly patched up and take off again. This would allow much longer and more intense missions which would normally cause you to run out of ammo. Also, remember that a combat landing and rearming takes you out of battle for a while, so this wouldn't be a game breaker.
I'd be a fan of something like that. If you take a two-three minute time out in the middle of a mission, you're running a pretty good risk of some raiders showing up and blasting your battlestar out of existence while you're sitting in the hangar twiddling your thumbs. It seems like a pretty good tradeoff to give to a player - do I get greedy with missile-requiring objectives or do I stick it out and shoot down raiders?
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Would this be a relation of the sometimes-mentioned, never-seen "tanker bird" from the show?
I think this was just a Raptor used for refueling. I would imagine that it would look no different than a regular Raptor, other than some sort of fueling nozzle or robotic arm with a fuel line. Fuel could just be stored inside the cockpit. External fuel tanks would just make the Raptor a very tempting (and explosive) target. Seeing as fuel is virtually unlimited in-game, there would be no need to include these other than some sort of "protect the Raptors" objective.
There's also the Mark I and II shuttles seldom used by the military onscreen but, in theory they could potentially fill a combat role of some sort.
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Us old school Elite/Frontier Elite 2 / Wing commander players were raised on no reloads :p
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Wing Commander had infinite ammo with its energy weapons, though...
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in fact I am struggling to think of a space fighter game that, energy/heat bar aside, didn't have unlimited cannon ammo.
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It's funny because in Elite you'll almost always be using your unlimited (except for an overheat meter) laser, and missiles are a last resort. You also have fully regenerative health barring subsystem damage (which almost always immediately precedes death). So it isn't a particularly good example.
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in fact I am struggling to think of a space fighter game that, energy/heat bar aside, didn't have unlimited cannon ammo.
The X series, once they introduced ballistic weapons.
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Even in X, the Mass Drivers were a niche weapon. Especially in X2, in X3 they were somewhat better, but still you'd stick to energy weapons because of the cost.
One sort of "space" game that comes to my mind is Descent, where the energy didn't regenerate, but had to be collected like typical FPS ammo.
I'd say that in-mission reloads would be a good idea for R2. You could touch down in the flightpod, get rearmed, perhaps slightly patched up and take off again. This would allow much longer and more intense missions which would normally cause you to run out of ammo. Also, remember that a combat landing and rearming takes you out of battle for a while, so this wouldn't be a game breaker.
I'd be a fan of something like that. If you take a two-three minute time out in the middle of a mission, you're running a pretty good risk of some raiders showing up and blasting your battlestar out of existence while you're sitting in the hangar twiddling your thumbs. It seems like a pretty good tradeoff to give to a player - do I get greedy with missile-requiring objectives or do I stick it out and shoot down raiders?
Basically, that was my idea for reloads. Reloads would be paired with a rather hectic pounding by Heavy Raiders and Basestars, so you'd have to time them right, or trade off some of your Battlestar's health in order to get rearmed. Coupled with global missile load tracking (limiting cannon ammo like that could be a bit overkill), this could really help the atmosphere and add depth to the game. Since the only missiles that are mission critical are anti-ship, these could be issued on a per-mission basis, and maybe you could get to keep the spares to use in case of being in a tight spot later. AA missiles would be issued at the start to use at your discretion, and you'd be able to get some more in certain missions, usually by saving a cargo vessel.
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Yes but without code to lower you into the hanger bay and watch all the grease monkeys stick new weapons on your hull, it would quite obviously be a game mechanic. We might as well have you fly over a Power Up icon to recharge your ammo. :p
Seriously guys, in flightpod reloads are not going to happen. Get used to it.
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If only there was a way to include a pre-recorded cutscene in the middle of a mission (of course, with game running in the background), this could be done. Actually, it'd be really awesome if something like that could happen. Imagine you touch down for rearming, and get a cutscene (maybe a clip from the show?) of the elevator lowering you down, technicans scrambling around the ship, loading ordnance and welding metal plates to the hull, then loading you into the launch rail for a combat launch. Of course, this would require the combat launches to be doable when the ship is moving and turning in the middle of a mission (not an easy task, I reckon), but just think how awesome it'd be. :)
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If only there was a way to include a pre-recorded cutscene in the middle of a mission (of course, with game running in the background), this could be done. Actually, it'd be really awesome if something like that could happen. Imagine you touch down for rearming, and get a cutscene (maybe a clip from the show?) of the elevator lowering you down, technicans scrambling around the ship, loading ordnance and welding metal plates to the hull, then loading you into the launch rail for a combat launch. Of course, this would require the combat launches to be doable when the ship is moving and turning in the middle of a mission (not an easy task, I reckon), but just think how awesome it'd be. :)
Clips from the show are a big No-No, and doing such a scene for just one mission... i dunno, that's something for those moments when the 3D guys have an empty plate, unless this specific mission would require it.
Having such a scene in every mission would become boring for most players very fast, so we'd have to make that cutscene skipable, which makes the whole effort in Animating and coding pointless. Plus it'd would bring us to were we started.
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Reloads in every mission or whenever the player requests them are never happening, anyway. And in those few specific situations where we might do them, I'd rather have a dedicated craft you need to land in for that than break the mission with cutscenes.
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Having such a scene in every mission would become boring for most players very fast, so we'd have to make that cutscene skipable, which makes the whole effort in Animating and coding pointless. Plus it'd would bring us to were we started.
Now that I think of it, a scene of a Viper being outfitted with weapons (just be careful not to show the missiles well) and loaded into the launch tube would fit pretty well at the mission start, ala Wing Commander takeoff scenes. Of course, being stock footage, it'd often get skipped, but I found such scenes really added to atmosphere in Wing Commander. Same goes for landing, it shows you the world that's beyond game space.
Reloads in every mission or whenever the player requests them are never happening, anyway. And in those few specific situations where we might do them, I'd rather have a dedicated craft you need to land in for that than break the mission with cutscenes.
That could be a good idea too, and wouldn't require any coding additions. TBH, I initially didn't know that Battlestars have hangar lifts and don't do their rearming WWII style, on the flight deck. I watched only a few BSG episodes and assumed that rearming could be done on flight deck.
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The flight deck is exposed to the vacuum of space most of the time, and since there aren't any fancy force fields in BSG, that would make reloading on the deck impractical to say the least :)
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I guess they could close the two garage doors on the pods but that would take a while. :P
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Proof that it can be done... :)
(http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/3702/proofyu.jpg)
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To be honest, if we had some extra dedicated artists I'd love to do things more like Wing Commander (with little cutscenes showing ship damage, etc.) Not hard to do on the mission end. The trick is getting people who have the time and labor to do it all. (and we'd want new team members so we can still do R2 on time)
i.e. little scenes post-mission of each viper type showing battle damage and the silhouette of the crew chief sort of thing.
So if you know artists who want to model battlestar interiors and render them, send them our way!
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Indeed. Wing Commander Saga really took my cutscenes code and ran with it. We had similar plans but we couldn't carry them out because we didn't have enough animators to do it (Well we have the animators, but we'd rather they were modelling!).
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in fact I am struggling to think of a space fighter game that, energy/heat bar aside, didn't have unlimited cannon ammo.
I think Starshatter could be made very similar to this. Your fighter has particle cannons, which do recharge, but there is no re-arming/re-fueling on the go. If one altered the gun code (with respect to powering down sensor levels), you could not regain energy, nor deplete it when not firing. Starshatter also had a BSG mod back in the day.
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i.e. little scenes post-mission of each viper type showing battle damage and the crew chief with a wrench uprased as a weapon. The mechanic's expression was of pure, if silly, rage.
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That's got to be the second time I've seen you post that line on HLP (a search confirms the initial guess), and I have no idea how many people besides us actually know what you're referencing. :p
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I do, for what it's worth :lol: