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Community Projects => The FreeSpace Upgrade Project => The FreeSpace Port Upgrade => Topic started by: Black_Yoshi1230 on February 08, 2013, 10:30:01 pm

Title: Amun or Osiris?
Post by: Black_Yoshi1230 on February 08, 2013, 10:30:01 pm
At least the Amun is getting the respect it deserves, with the new, shiny HTL model recently released.

Amun = decent, large coolness. Osiris? Pah.

EDIT: Now that this topic is split and I got the unceremonious position of first post, I had to fit it with context.
Title: Re: Amun or Osiris?
Post by: Woolie Wool on February 08, 2013, 10:53:10 pm
The lead designer of the Osiris was turned by the GTA and worked as a secret agent for the Terran military.
Title: Re: Amun or Osiris?
Post by: MatthTheGeek on February 09, 2013, 04:26:59 am
Try intercepting with a Valk a wing of Orisises with Avenger turrets and improved AI, and then tell me it sucks. That thing is scary, I'm telling ya. Really scary.
Title: Re: Amun or Osiris?
Post by: Apollo on February 09, 2013, 11:53:45 pm
Try intercepting with a Valk a wing of Orisises with Avenger turrets and improved AI, and then tell me it sucks. That thing is scary, I'm telling ya. Really scary.

Fury AI makes it dangerous to attack two fighters at once. Attacking four bombers with turrets is going to be almost suicidal, regardless of how crappy the individual ships are.
Title: Re: Amun or Osiris?
Post by: Woolie Wool on February 09, 2013, 11:55:40 pm
Try intercepting with a Valk a wing of Orisises with Avenger turrets and improved AI, and then tell me it sucks. That thing is scary, I'm telling ya. Really scary.

With shields or without? Because without shields they shouldn't even have Avengers.

Also the Amun also has two turrets.
Title: Re: Amun or Osiris?
Post by: MatthTheGeek on February 10, 2013, 04:25:02 am
Shields ? You think a continuous salvo of hellishly accurate Avengers gives a **** about puny Valk shields ? :p

The Amun isn't better with its Banshees, but you meet the Osiris more often.

Fury AI makes it dangerous to attack two fighters at once. Attacking four bombers with turrets is going to be almost suicidal, regardless of how crappy the individual ships are.
Try attacking a wing of Artemis instead of a wing of Osiris. Or a wing of Boanerges. Hell, even a wing of Sekhmets. Those are pieces of cake because you can evade being in front of their guns. You can't evade being in the field of fire of Osiris or Amun turrets.
Title: Re: Amun or Osiris?
Post by: Apollo on February 10, 2013, 11:32:08 am
Shields ? You think a continuous salvo of hellishly accurate Avengers gives a **** about puny Valk shields ? :p

The Amun isn't better with its Banshees, but you meet the Osiris more often.

Try attacking a wing of Artemis instead of a wing of Osiris. Or a wing of Boanerges. Hell, even a wing of Sekhmets. Those are pieces of cake because you can evade being in front of their guns. You can't evade being in the field of fire of Osiris or Amun turrets.

The Osiris doesn't have Avenger turrets, it has Prometheus or Prometheus R. I have a feeling you're better at FreeSpace than me, because a wing of Artemis with Fury AI would be quite dangerous to me (so long as they actually bothered to defend themselves).

The Amun could do exactly the same thing, and it carries far more bombs and armor.
Title: Re: Amun or Osiris?
Post by: Woolie Wool on February 10, 2013, 12:38:25 pm
Shields ? You think a continuous salvo of hellishly accurate Avengers gives a **** about puny Valk shields ? :p

The Amun isn't better with its Banshees, but you meet the Osiris more often.

Try attacking a wing of Artemis instead of a wing of Osiris. Or a wing of Boanerges. Hell, even a wing of Sekhmets. Those are pieces of cake because you can evade being in front of their guns. You can't evade being in the field of fire of Osiris or Amun turrets.

The Osiris doesn't have Avenger turrets, it has Prometheus or Prometheus R. I have a feeling you're better at FreeSpace than me, because a wing of Artemis with Fury AI would be quite dangerous to me (so long as they actually bothered to defend themselves).

The Amun could do exactly the same thing, and it carries far more bombs and armor.

If an Amun actually turns to attack you directly it can do a hell of a lot more damage to you than an Osiris can.
Title: Re: Amun or Osiris?
Post by: MatthTheGeek on February 10, 2013, 01:30:32 pm
How would an Amun attack you with its primaries, it'd need to outturn you.

What are you flying, a cruiser ?
Title: Re: Amun or Osiris?
Post by: mjn.mixael on February 10, 2013, 01:32:42 pm
How would an Amun attack you with its primaries, it'd need to outturn you.

What are you flying, a cruiser ?

 :lol:
Title: Re: Amun or Osiris?
Post by: Hades on February 10, 2013, 02:26:26 pm
How would an Amun attack you with its primaries, it'd need to outturn you.

What are you flying, a cruiser ?
I do understand that you're not a native English speaker, however, there's a reason he put 'If' on the front of his sentence.
Title: Re: Amun or Osiris?
Post by: Apollo on February 10, 2013, 03:59:58 pm
How would an Amun attack you with its primaries, it'd need to outturn you.

What are you flying, a cruiser ?

How would an Osiris attack you with its primaries, it'd need to outturn you and overcome its terrible gun placement. The Amun is still pretty bad in that regard, but at least it has a better chance with four guns instead of two.

The Amun would point at you while you're attacking one of its wingmen and bury you under Prometheus fire and Furies.
Title: Re: Amun or Osiris?
Post by: MatthTheGeek on February 10, 2013, 04:30:42 pm
How would an Osiris attack you with its primaries, it'd need to outturn you and overcome its terrible gun placement.
My point is that it doesn't need to, because it has two turrets with excellent coverage.
Title: Re: Amun or Osiris?
Post by: Apollo on February 10, 2013, 06:46:47 pm
My point is that it doesn't need to, because it has two turrets with excellent coverage.

So what? It's still unlikely to survive an attack by even one interceptor. The Amun has worse coverage and handling, but also far more firepower, armor and shielding. It also has a smaller target profile, which gives it some measure of evasion to offset its terrible maneuverability.

Yes, a wing of Osirises with Fury turret AI is dangerous. As is a wing of Medusas, Ursas, Amuns, Seraphims, or Nephilims. This does not prevent the Osiris from being a piece of crap bomber with a deficient payload.
Title: Re: Amun or Osiris?
Post by: Black_Yoshi1230 on February 10, 2013, 08:43:56 pm
I also forgot the Osiris can carry the UD-8 Kayser, but not the Maxim. Huh.

Back to the Amun, would it be able to stand up to snuff against Second War era craft like Deimoses and stuff?
Title: Re: Amun or Osiris?
Post by: Apollo on February 10, 2013, 08:52:56 pm
Better than the Osiris could.
Title: Re: Amun or Osiris?
Post by: mjn.mixael on February 11, 2013, 11:35:29 pm
Split from HTL Amun discussion, here. (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=81274.msg1672410#msg1672410)
Title: Re: Amun or Osiris?
Post by: Oddgrim on February 12, 2013, 02:52:54 am
Gosh darn if people would be are jealous of the  new amun, I'll just go and make a new shiny osiris! :p
Title: Re: Amun or Osiris?
Post by: SypheDMar on February 12, 2013, 03:12:10 am
I'm not convinced an Amun is more dangerous than an Osiris against fighters. As far as I can tell, cover fire is important (which is why the Boanerges is so bad in the first place). And if an Osiris has better/more cover fire than an Amun, I can't imagine the latter to be better at even attacking other bombers.

And with the Trebuchet in  production by FS2, I don't think Amuns stand a good chance of surviving the period.
Title: Re: Amun or Osiris?
Post by: Nohiki on February 12, 2013, 06:43:07 am
I preffer Osiris, because the gunpoints on Amun are so far from each other they miss a herc from 200m range :P I'd take sekkie/baka over one of these any time.

And seriously, did the turrets really kill anyone ever? IMHO if it ain't kayser turret or better, it does squat.
Title: Re: Amun or Osiris?
Post by: MatthTheGeek on February 12, 2013, 07:40:09 am
You need to play with improved AI. Turrets don't do squat otherwise, but they become really OP when they can fire on their own and without artificial cooldown penalty.

EDIT: you want a better idea of what I'm talking about ? Think Isis, but faster, with shields and bombs. Now think a wing of them. There you go, Osiris with improved AI. Have fun assaulting that with anything less than a full friendly wing or long-range missiles. They basically run their own escort. Same for the Amun.

Medusa and Ursa are less problematic because they only have one turret that covers only half the ship. No exploitable dead angle on Osiris and Amun. All FS2 bombers are turretless, and are nothing more than interceptor fodder as long as you're flying anything more agile than a cruiser.
Title: Re: Amun or Osiris?
Post by: Apollo on February 12, 2013, 03:08:17 pm
You need to play with improved AI. Turrets don't do squat otherwise, but they become really OP when they can fire on their own and without artificial cooldown penalty.

EDIT: you want a better idea of what I'm talking about ? Think Isis, but faster, with shields and bombs. Now think a wing of them. There you go, Osiris with improved AI. Have fun assaulting that with anything less than a full friendly wing or long-range missiles. They basically run their own escort. Same for the Amun.

Medusa and Ursa are less problematic because they only have one turret that covers only half the ship. No exploitable dead angle on Osiris and Amun. All FS2 bombers are turretless, and are nothing more than interceptor fodder as long are you're flying anything more agile than a cruiser.
I'd have to agree with that. They both have good coverage (although the Osiris is somewhat better), and with enhanced AI a wing of them would be very dangerous.

I thought you were arguing that the Osiris is better than the Amun, but you never actually said that.

Wait, what was the point of this argument?
Title: Re: Amun or Osiris?
Post by: MatthTheGeek on February 12, 2013, 05:03:45 pm
The point was that the Osiris doesn't suck. You can argue that the Amun is better, but you can't argue that it isn't an effective design as long as you have an AI that can actually use the turrets. The Sekhmet is probably a better ship for the player, who is actually able to defend itself, but the Osiris is gonna give you more trouble in tight wings.

We had to nerf the bomber turrets in BtA, reducing rate of fire and giving them fov, just so they wouldn't be completely, utterly overpowered. And even after that, they will still run their own escort, and don't expect take them out alone and without damage even with a fully armed Herc.

Survivability-wise, Artemises and Boanerges are just ridiculous jokes compared to Osirises. They're just flying targets. Osiris is a flying gunboat.
Title: Re: Amun or Osiris?
Post by: Apollo on February 12, 2013, 06:01:58 pm
Wow, you had to nerf their turrets?

I think what we have here is a heavy bomber that poses little threat to capships but is very dangerous to fighters.

Perhaps the GTVA should take all the Osirises, replace their Cyclops with three banks of anti-fighter missiles, and use them as convoy and warship escorts?

EDIT: Now I know why retail AI nerfs bomber turrets so much.
Title: Re: Amun or Osiris?
Post by: MatthTheGeek on February 12, 2013, 06:09:54 pm
Well actually it poses more threat to capital ships than an Artemis does, because it has more chances to survive long enough to deliver the bombs. Which is the whole point of a bomber to begin with.
Title: Re: Amun or Osiris?
Post by: Apollo on February 12, 2013, 06:23:44 pm
Then I guess neither of them excel in that role. :p Never liked the Artemis anyway; its poor maneuverability and bad gun placement makes it a terrible dogfighter.

Seriously though, would the Osiris be useful as an escort ship? A wing of them armed with Kaysers or Prometheus S turrets would be very dangerous to fighters.
Title: Re: Amun or Osiris?
Post by: MatthTheGeek on February 12, 2013, 06:41:13 pm
Why not, whatever rocks your boat. Shouldn't be hard to whip up a quick test mission to see for yourself.
Title: Re: Amun or Osiris?
Post by: Black_Yoshi1230 on February 13, 2013, 12:07:38 am
Better yet, try that one mission from the Blackwater Ops demo (if you're using FS2-era assets). There are waves of Osiris bombers.

(If we had Prometheus S turrets or something akin to the Avenger, then I would quit complaining.)

Title: Re: Amun or Osiris?
Post by: BloodFleet on March 03, 2013, 10:07:17 pm
Not seeing how a 40, 40, 20 capacity and crap primary mount is any good, but ok I won't try to "start that again" (as if I had any idea I was and/or was trying to "start something").

Sekhmet or Bakha instead plz.
Title: Re: Amun or Osiris?
Post by: niffiwan on March 03, 2013, 10:17:45 pm
Not seeing how a 40, 40, 20 capacity and crap primary mount is any good

You're right - those bits are not very good.  However 2x turrets with upgraded AI == very good :)

As a human pilot, you probably do not want to fly an Osiris (for the reasons you mentioned, plus the poor manoeuvrability).  But as a human pilot, you're also going to dread flying against a wing of Osiris.
Title: Re: Amun or Osiris?
Post by: Black Wolf on March 03, 2013, 10:35:13 pm
Not seeing how a 40, 40, 20 capacity and crap primary mount is any good, but ok I won't try to "start that again" (as if I had any idea I was and/or was trying to "start something").

Sekhmet or Bakha instead plz.

I don't see any problem with "starting that again" if "that" is a free space discussion on a freesoace discussion board. :P
Title: Re: Amun or Osiris?
Post by: MatthTheGeek on March 04, 2013, 03:10:06 am
It was more about not start it again in the release thread. We have this thread here for that.

Bloodfleet, have you read the thread before posting ? It's not that long.
Title: Re: Amun or Osiris?
Post by: BloodFleet on March 04, 2013, 09:17:47 am
Yeah I get it, you in a fighter going against a wing of them with improved ai and avenger/prom/kayser/whatever turrets is going to hurt. I guess I should say that I agree on that point. Perhaps then you should get your allies to help, usually you have allies yes? That or trebuchet, double tornado, tempest...

I take it I should have specified I am talking about having to fly one yourself?
Title: Re: Amun or Osiris?
Post by: MatthTheGeek on March 04, 2013, 09:20:56 am
Well yeah, but flying bombers in general is quite unentertaining. And since the turrets are the biggest trouble, and that you don't control them, it's even less attractive as a player ship. I do prefer flying a Sekhmet myself.
Title: Re: Amun or Osiris?
Post by: crizza on March 04, 2013, 01:01:21 pm
And I just wanted to add the Stheno...
But well, the Sekhmet should be the zod bomber of choice.