Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: An4ximandros on December 25, 2013, 10:44:02 am
-
Why not do a Remake... of Freespace 2?
Take the story and rework it as an additional campaign that makes use of the advancements in FRED and the Engine. Something along the lines of ST:R.
It's pretty insane but, I might actually be up for it. (If I can figure out how to move the damn camera in FRED in a non-backaswardian fashion.)
Aside: Is there anyway to change keybinds on FRED?
-
A few of the missions are slightly creaky but all in all I'm not convinced FS2 needs it. The script is really, really tight, and that carries the rest.
-
Freespace 2 could be expanded rather than remade. Add additional missions to what already exists. There are many references to other battles in Freespace 2 briefings and debriefings. These battles could be created.
-
I do think a Grizzly Bearbaiting style tune-up to a few missions (like Their Finest Hour, yeesh) would be a worthwhile endeavor, so Anax, maybe that'd be the first point to chase.
-
Freespace 2 could be expanded rather than remade. Add additional missions to what already exists. There are many references to other battles in Freespace 2 briefings and debriefings. These battles could be created.
But why would one do that?
The great thing about FS2 is its minimalism, it's reduced to the bare minimum necessary to tell its story, and that's as much part of the "FreeSpace Experience" as anything else. The great thing about FS2 is that it lets us tell these stories, but that is only possible because a lot of the detail in the main campaign has been only sketched in. If we were to crowdsource embellishments to the story, we would lose some of that leanness. The game would be bigger, there would be more of it, but given that the overriding philosophy of FS2's game design is "do the most with the least", we would just be screwing with a design that is already pretty perfect.
I do think a Grizzly Bearbaiting style tune-up to a few missions (like Their Finest Hour, yeesh) would be a worthwhile endeavor, so Anax, maybe that'd be the first point to chase.
There is that. But that's more like trying to do stuff that :v: couldn't due to time constraints, not stuff that we have to invent from scratch.
-
Yeah, FS2 is lean as ****. If you check the raw script on the Wiki, the command briefings are all kinds of terse, but ~JASON SCOTT~ did such a good job with the density of it that every word hits above its weight. The word choice and scansion are perfect, shouldering worldbuilding, subtext, and plot exposition at the same time without a sweat.
I love the FS2 script.
-
I do think a Grizzly Bearbaiting style tune-up to a few missions (like Their Finest Hour, yeesh) would be a worthwhile endeavor, so Anax, maybe that'd be the first point to chase.
There's a single-mission remake to Their Finest Hour. I don't think you would like it though due to implications the Sathanas is a dirty whore being raped by the Colossus if I remember right. I wasn't exactly keen on that either. Other than that, it's one of the more intense missions I've played if I remember right. Quite a rush. You get to kill one Sathanas, you might even get to kill 2 before the Colossus goes down, I'm not sure. Along with all kinds of other Shivans. It was a long time ago when I played it. It's on Freespacemods somewhere.
Freespace 2 could be expanded rather than remade. Add additional missions to what already exists. There are many references to other battles in Freespace 2 briefings and debriefings. These battles could be created.
But why would one do that?
The great thing about FS2 is its minimalism, it's reduced to the bare minimum necessary to tell its story, and that's as much part of the "FreeSpace Experience" as anything else. The great thing about FS2 is that it lets us tell these stories, but that is only possible because a lot of the detail in the main campaign has been only sketched in. If we were to crowdsource embellishments to the story, we would lose some of that leanness. The game would be bigger, there would be more of it, but given that the overriding philosophy of FS2's game design is "do the most with the least", we would just be screwing with a design that is already pretty perfect.
I would certainly not want these missions added in to Freespace 2. Leave that campaign as-is. But I could imagine another campaign, like an expansion, where you play the other missions, and the campaign briefings etc. talk about the exploits of Alpha 1 instead.
-
Actually i think that the first FreeSpace needs a "Reborn" much more than FreeSpace 2.
Alone because of these numerous incosistencies. Nodes or missing Flak and Anti-Fighter beams on Shivan ships..
In FreeSpace 2 there are only one or two missions that needs tweaking. High Noon and Their finest Hour comes to mind...
-
Script might be good enough to carry the story but missions themselves are bland and boring by today's standards. That goes for FSPort and ST:R as well since they only use features that were there in retail. To make any kind of remake worth considering, it would have to make good and interesting use of SCP features while not making the script any worse than it was originally.
But to do that you probably would have to redesign so much stuff people wouldn't want to call it FS any more.
-
Yeah, the big limitation is that you've got to stick to the existing VA.
-
Can always put out a call for re-voicing minor roles, like squadmates; If it becomes really necessary.
Something I always wanted to fix was the Sathanass VS Colli Duel. Once the claws are gone it's just a playable cutscene, and not a good one.
And then there is the whole "Oh you prevented the Colossus from getting a single scratch. Nice work! It will now spend months in the shipyards because of all the damage it took from the Sathanas (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ct0kdvaxt28#t=37)."
-
And then there is the whole "Oh you prevented the Colossus from getting a single scratch. Nice work! It will now spend months in the shipyards because of all the damage it took from the Sathanas (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ct0kdvaxt28#t=37)."
I justify that to myself as the overdriven beams causing serious damage to the fire control systems of the Colly (yeah, it's not perfect...)
-
Replace High Noon with something similar to the one Darius (I think) made, and we're good.
-
The Colossus overcharged her beams, slagged her heat sinks on every major weapons system and blew her backup power system completely.
She definitely needed a refit after that.
-
This was already attempted, but aside from the two missions we have, nobody did anything more. Anyway, I'd certainly play FS2: Reborn. There are things that could use an STR-style touch.
-
Actually i think that the first FreeSpace needs a "Reborn" much more than FreeSpace 2.
Alone because of these numerous incosistencies. Nodes or missing Flak and Anti-Fighter beams on Shivan ships..
In FreeSpace 2 there are only one or two missions that needs tweaking. High Noon and Their finest Hour comes to mind...
I would agree. One of the things I would change (other than node inconsistencies) is This (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=84282.0). Would make it more like FS2 and it has some history to back it up.
If you are going to change FS2 at all, I would recommend This (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=86136.0). Very minor change that I believe will make a big difference. I don't mind a bigger FS2 (or FS1, for that matter [Battle of Deneb...?]) main campaign. We all know it's not the original/real version, so I don't believe it will make that much of a difference to the overall feeling of the campaign, as long as you make the new missions well.
-
I agree to an fs1 reborn. There's even a wiki devoted to those plot holes.
-
been chewing over this sort of thing for a couple of years now on and off, though mostly aiming towards FS1 which I believe is much more in need of this sort of tretment to tighten up things like fluff consistency, but with either of these you have a massive obstacle which ST:R had on a much smaller scale, which is the sheer volume of missions involved with either of the main campaigns.
The original ST in terms of mission numbers matched about the length of a single Act in either main campaign iirc. I am not saying it would be impossible, far from it, and there have been several very successful major projects but the challenge of maintaining momentum on such projects is not to be ignored, which given the high collapse rate of projects here in general, let alone ones of this scale I think you can see why I see this as such a big concern.
So
* yes possible
* yes I would love to see something which allows the telling of the FS story in a way that fixes the problems therein and takes advantage of relevant FSO functions
* but plan to have problems with motivation/staffing because you will have them in abundance.
On that note as I said I have had a few incoherent thoughts on this and I would be happy to discuss them but I dont think i have the time available to actually work on something like this at the moment
-
Not the first time its been thought... Not the last... And meh. It would have to be a hell of a remake of either fs1 or fs2 for it to do the same that ST:R did to ST.
And no offense, but someone who is still learning the camera controls in FRED likely doesn't have the motivation and longevity to get the job done. Because, make no mistake, we are talking at least a year of work, but probably much more.... Give or take depending on team size (if 'team' at all).
-
The Colossus overcharged her beams, slagged her heat sinks on every major weapons system and blew her backup power system completely.
She definitely needed a refit after that.
The problem is that the mission doesn't reliably create a situation where this kind of exigency-driven at-all-costs engagement was necessary. If the Sath comes into High Noon with no beams, or if you disable them all very quickly, the Colossus' urgency just comes off as comedy.
-
And then there's the fact that if there are still beams remaining, the Colossus leaves it to the single wing of bombers to destroy them, despite having the fighter wing of 2-3 destroyers.
-
The Colossus overcharged her beams, slagged her heat sinks on every major weapons system and blew her backup power system completely.
She definitely needed a refit after that.
The problem is that the mission doesn't reliably create a situation where this kind of exigency-driven at-all-costs engagement was necessary. If the Sath comes into High Noon with no beams, or if you disable them all very quickly, the Colossus' urgency just comes off as comedy.
The personal justification I've come up with to hand-wave that is that Command was extremely concerned that the Sathanas might just bug out of the area, possibly in an untraceable manner, and pop up again fully repaired somewhere else, with the best chance to defeat it having been lost. Command had a defanged Sathanas sitting right in front of them, possibly for only a short while, and they needed it gone yesterday. The Colossus's beam arrays were a small price to pay in order to ensure that. Your mileage on how well this explanation works may vary, though.
Of course this would then beg the question as to why the Sathanas didn't take the chance to jump out when it could, but that applies to pretty much every capship encounter across both retail campaigns. :p
-
Which does beg the question, is it possible / has anyone successfully taken out all of the Sathanas' engines in Bearbaiting? :D
-
Maybe this is a good place to anounce that I'm working on a complete overhaul of FS1, STR and FS2 as one big package, with some added weapons and ships, new flight physics, changed loadout, improved AI, and all sorts of other "fixes"
I'm not sure how many people will take any real interest in such a thing, but it's being done
The overhaul as such is pretty much complete, and I'm starting to rework the missions as of now, so stay tuned
-
I would strongly advise against this. While I'm a fan of ST:R, I don't see remaking FS1 or FS2 as going nearly as well, or a number of reasons.
1. Demand. Silent Threat was so bad it NEEDED a remake. By contrast, the mission quality of the retail campaigns (esp. FS2) is generally the benchmark of what makes a respectable user-made campaign (Derelict or Warzone, for example). It's only with Blue Planet and Vassago's Dirge that "Retail Quality" has been left in the dust, and unless you want to bring FS2 to War in Heaven's level, you'd basically by reinventing the wheel. Look at Bearbaiting, one of the most exciting missions in history, to counterbalance High Noon. High Noon is only boring if you had an epic run on Bearbaiting.
In terms of story: ya, there are glips, like the CB for Playing Judas. But like Battuta pointed out, the overall quality of the plot is powerful- that's why we're here today!
2. Scale: FS2, counting normal missions, SOC loops, and training missions, all of which would need to be rebuilt, is more than twice the length of the REMADE ST:R. And that's before increasing the mission count as part of the remake process. Take the number of years it took ST:R to be finished, multiply by three, and you're getting into Blackwater operations territory. Seriously, in terms of mission count, this could be one of the longest campaigns in history.
3. Significance. ST:R kept the "disruption" of canon to a minimum because not a lot of campaigns (good ones, at least) depended on ST to the point where they would conflict with ST:R. That's not the case with FS1 and FS2, where the very things people here want to change are often important questions in user-made campaigns, like the node inconsistencies and the lack of beams and flak on FS1-era Shivan ships (which is also critical for balance). Redoing the main campaigns would be an alteration to the very foundation of HLP and its work.
4. Symbolically, if we attempt to rewrite and rescript Volition's own core campaigns, we're basically severing the link with Volition- like a branch cutting the tree down. If we do this, we remove the very idea of Canon as something established by Volition that we must comply with to call our campaigns "compatible". We would be claiming the right, as a community, to rewrite FS canon as we saw fit. I think the refusal to do that was the reason HLP has refused to make a FreeSpace 3.
Maybe this is a good place to anounce that I'm working on a complete overhaul of FS1, STR and FS2 as one big package, with some added weapons and ships, new flight physics, changed loadout, improved AI, and all sorts of other "fixes"
I'm not sure how many people will take any real interest in such a thing, but it's being done
The overhaul as such is pretty much complete, and I'm starting to rework the missions as of now, so stay tuned
What?
-
It sounds like fightermedic is doing a big gameplay remix, which wouldn't touch the story. Sounds like a laudable project to me.
-
Ok, that makes sense. Something like Fury's AI upgrades, applied to physics and loadouts? That does seem like a valuable project that a number of campaigns could take advantage of.
-
Maybe this is a good place to anounce that I'm working on a complete overhaul of FS1, STR and FS2 as one big package, with some added weapons and ships, new flight physics, changed loadout, improved AI, and all sorts of other "fixes"
I'm not sure how many people will take any real interest in such a thing, but it's being done
The overhaul as such is pretty much complete, and I'm starting to rework the missions as of now, so stay tuned
You kept that one quiet, didn't you.
How long have you been working on it?
-
It sounds like fightermedic is doing a big gameplay remix, which wouldn't touch the story. Sounds like a laudable project to me.
Aye, something like "FreeSpace 2: Master Quest" could definitely work.
-
2. Scale: FS2, counting normal missions, SOC loops, and training missions, all of which would need to be rebuilt.......
.......the very things people here want to change are often important questions in user-made campaigns, like the node inconsistencies and the lack of beams and flak on FS1-era Shivan ships (which is also critical for balance).......
4. Symbolically, if we attempt to rewrite and rescript Volition's own core campaigns.......
I do not believe that a complete overhaul of the entire campaign(s) is needed or what is being promoted here (unlike ST:R). Sure, if you introduce beams and flak, then most of the FS1 missions would need at least a little tweaking. But I believe that there are many (much better) solutions to this problem than just adding them back to FS1. Most of the node inconsistencies wouldn't affect the gameplay of the missions involved. The only major situation I remember is in Tenderizer where the Galatea jumps in and then out of the same node (presumably to/from different systems). According to :v-old:, nodes are a 1-1 deal.
The main issue that I think people want more ships fighting on each side. :v-old: had to figure that most people didn't have great computers back then (even by 1990's standards). Too many ships flying around and people can't play it. That's why they invented the SJD Sathanas (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/SJD_Sathanas). Today we really don't have that issue. So maybe we add a few more ships to each side. You would have to keep balance, sure, and that would take some time. But we don't have to do it all at once. Maybe we fix the missions that really bug us (like High Noon) first and then "upgrade" other missions as we see fit. That doesn't mean that we are better than :v-old: or want to usurp their role or story writing. The original games will still be just that. We upgraded the engine and graphics because we have better computers; why can't we do the same for the gameplay?
-
Speaking from a lot of experience with FreeSpace 2 tactical work, I'm not convinced adding more ships, even as spectacle, will do much. Adding more fighters tends to create swingy battles that end very rapidly. Adding more warships scattered about can be pretty cool and interesting, but then you wonder why Command never mentions them...
Since Fury AI dropped we've gotten a lot of mileage out of making ships smarter, not more numerous. Might be an avenue to pursue.
ALSO ho ho ho I just remembered that one of my favorite pieces of canon, the FreeSpace 2 demo, has two missions that I remember quite liking! They even have voice work.
-
There's the What If - Another Great War campaign, which is essentially a remake of FS1. Missions tweaked so they range from being anywhere from slightly different to their FS1 counterparts to original missions, and the Shivans have beams and the GTVA have flak. I can't remember how far in I got, but I got a good way in. I think I might play it again. Right now. I remember enjoying it.
EDIT:
This one:
http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=56156.0
-
Maybe this is a good place to anounce that I'm working on a complete overhaul of FS1, STR and FS2 as one big package, with some added weapons and ships, new flight physics, changed loadout, improved AI, and all sorts of other "fixes"
I'm not sure how many people will take any real interest in such a thing, but it's being done
The overhaul as such is pretty much complete, and I'm starting to rework the missions as of now, so stay tuned
You kept that one quiet, didn't you.
How long have you been working on it?
i've started a general overhaul of all the ships and weapons after the lightning marshall release, but didn't have the plan to rework the vanilla campaigns until maybe 4 months back
since i've had like no free time the last months, i've only rebalanced the first three fs1 missions so far
let me tell you one thing people:
balancing missions with enemy fighters that suffer no penalties compared to the player and have better ai is a nightmare if the player ship is unshielded
-
Maybe this is a good place to anounce that I'm working on a complete overhaul of FS1, STR and FS2 as one big package, with some added weapons and ships, new flight physics, changed loadout, improved AI, and all sorts of other "fixes"
I'm not sure how many people will take any real interest in such a thing, but it's being done
The overhaul as such is pretty much complete, and I'm starting to rework the missions as of now, so stay tuned
You kept that one quiet, didn't you.
How long have you been working on it?
i've started a general overhaul of all the ships and weapons after the lightning marshall release, but didn't have the plan to rework the vanilla campaigns until maybe 4 months back
since i've had like no free time the last months, i've only rebalanced the first three fs1 missions so far
let me tell you one thing people:
balancing missions with enemy fighters that suffer no penalties compared ot the player and have better ai is a nightmare if the player ship is unshielded
No free time aside from pumping out those lego-based ships. :)
I have very limited experience with the new AI (I've only faced it in 2 missions) but I would have thought shields would be even harder, what with the AI's shield management. The Shivans should have an advantage over the GTVA now with that shield management and their thick shields. Good luck stopping those bombers from reaching their targets...
I hope you get lots of free time since you seem to get lots of Freespace related things done. :)
-
Quote from: InsaneBaron on December 26, 2013, 11:07:38 am
2. Scale: FS2, counting normal missions, SOC loops, and training missions, all of which would need to be rebuilt.......
.......the very things people here want to change are often important questions in user-made campaigns, like the node inconsistencies and the lack of beams and flak on FS1-era Shivan ships (which is also critical for balance).......
4. Symbolically, if we attempt to rewrite and rescript Volition's own core campaigns.......
I do not believe that a complete overhaul of the entire campaign(s) is needed or what is being promoted here (unlike ST:R). Sure, if you introduce beams and flak, then most of the FS1 missions would need at least a little tweaking. But I believe that there are many (much better) solutions to this problem than just adding them back to FS1. Most of the node inconsistencies wouldn't affect the gameplay of the missions involved. The only major situation I remember is in Tenderizer where the Galatea jumps in and then out of the same node (presumably to/from different systems). According to :v-old:, nodes are a 1-1 deal.
The main issue that I think people want more ships fighting on each side. :v-old: had to figure that most people didn't have great computers back then (even by 1990's standards). Too many ships flying around and people can't play it. That's why they invented the SJD Sathanas. Today we really don't have that issue. So maybe we add a few more ships to each side. You would have to keep balance, sure, and that would take some time. But we don't have to do it all at once. Maybe we fix the missions that really bug us (like High Noon) first and then "upgrade" other missions as we see fit. That doesn't mean that we are better than :v-old: or want to usurp their role or story writing. The original games will still be just that. We upgraded the engine and graphics because we have better computers; why can't we do the same for the gameplay?
I should probably have been clearer: I'm not opposed to fightermedic's project or to "What If?" alternate continuity campaigns. "Grizzly Bearbaiting" and things like that are fine in their place. A lot of different things have been advocated here. What I'm trying to advise against is making a ST:R-style remake of FS1 and FS2. ST:R is more than just an "alternate continuity" thing, it's an actual attempt to replace Silent Threat. Battuta's Guide to finding your first (or next!) campaign, to which new players are often directed, states that there's no reason to play Silent Threat when you can play ST:R. And I agree on that point (mostly). But doing something like that to the core campaigns would be going too far.
Whether or not a project crosses that line depends on a number of factors, including how it's advertised and perceived. "What If?" never claims to be a replacement or superior version of FS1- it's a "What If?" speculation fanfic. Fightermedic's project seems fine. As far as I can understand he's making a big upgrade package like Fury's AI upgrades, and then rebalancing canon missions to utilize it; as long as it doesn't expand into what I've warned against, it's a quite interesting idea; and considering that it uses drastically new core gameplay, I doubt it will expand in that way.
-
What I'm trying to advise against is making a ST:R-style remake of FS1 and FS2. ST:R is more than just an "alternate continuity" thing, it's an actual attempt to replace Silent Threat. Battuta's Guide to finding your first (or next!) campaign, to which new players are often directed, states that there's no reason to play Silent Threat when you can play ST:R. And I agree on that point (mostly). But doing something like that to the core campaigns would be going too far.
Honestly, I don't think there's a single person who has the chops to pull that off with FS1/FS2 anyway. There may be enough people to do a team like project, but I'm still skeptical. You need people who are passionate about the original story to recreate it without overfilling it. (ST:R had a lot of freedom here, because ST had almost no story) You need people who respect the nostalgia of the originals, and understand how tough that's going to be to reconcile with new features. They need to know when to use them and not just how. I know people will argue it, but it will need to be voice acted.. and it needs to be good. (This is another thing that ST:R did and helps it feel like a true replacement to ST. It's voice acted, with quality... it feels like a complete release right next to FS1/FS2). Voice Acting alone is enough of a nightmare to make most experienced modders shudder. I bet the BP WiH VA project can shed some light on the problems with trying to get good VA.
This idea pops up almost annually, and usually there are one or two people working on their versions of the remakes. I'm not saying don't try to do a remake. By all means, make your remakes.. it's interesting to see what people think FS1/FS2 should or could look like, but I am saying don't try to replace FS1/FS2... because it's probably not going to happen.
-
Honestly I don't think getting good VA for an FS2-sized script is an impossible challenge, as long as you're willing to settle for high-end amateurs. ST:R's voice cast came in about two notches below FS2's, which is a pretty good showing. But it'll still be a major effort requiring serious commitment.
e: the problem with BP2 is simply that the script is colossal, probably at least an order of magnitude bigger than FS2's, and even then if we'd had one single autonomous VA coordinator able to work on it full time since release it'd probably be done...but that itself is quite a trick.
-
e: the problem with BP2 is simply that the script is colossal, probably at least an order of magnitude bigger than FS2's, and even then if we'd had one single autonomous VA coordinator able to work on it full time since release it'd probably be done...but that itself is quite a trick.
Which is still precisely my point. :)
The amount of work required to do a proper FS1/FS2:R is pretty darned massive. VA + everything else.
-
I guess, then, that nobody is seriously planning a FS1/2:R- just things like Fightermedic's tune-up or "What If". I can rest easy. :P
That said, best of luck to fightermedic on your project!
-
I guess, then, that nobody is seriously planning a FS1/2:R- just things like Fightermedic's tune-up or "What If". I can rest easy. :P
That said, best of luck to fightermedic on your project!
Yeah, if I ever would try to change FS1/2, I would start with the original campaign file and edit that, since I wouldn't be doing anything major. In FS1, I'd add squads like in FS2 and fix node inconsistencies (basically only changing the briefings). In FS2, I'd change the debrief for "Straight, No Chaser" so the Vasudan doesn't say that there are multiple Juggernauts in the nebula, leaving that for "Into the Lion's Den" for the player to find out.
-
I guess, then, that nobody is seriously planning a FS1/2:R- just things like Fightermedic's tune-up or "What If". I can rest easy. :P
That said, best of luck to fightermedic on your project!
Yeah, if I ever would try to change FS1/2, I would start with the original campaign file and edit that, since I wouldn't be doing anything major. In FS1, I'd add squads like in FS2 and fix node inconsistencies (basically only changing the briefings). In FS2, I'd change the debrief for "Straight, No Chaser" so the Vasudan doesn't say that there are multiple Juggernauts in the nebula, leaving that for "Into the Lion's Den" for the player to find out.
Another thing which could be done is to make it so wingmen can only carry dumbfires in FS1 in missions where you're not supposed to be able to lock on to the Shivans. You can't do it, but they certainly can.
-
The interceptor isn't available until after you get sensor lock on the Shivans. MX50 doesn't even need you to target in order to track.
-
The interceptor isn't available until after you get sensor lock on the Shivans. MX50 doesn't even need you to target in order to track.
I guess I'll have to try this in the main campaign to be sure, but I was playing the What If campaign and firing off MX50s and they were just heading off in a straight line, while my wingmen were happily getting locks with them.
EDIT: It might also have been the Phantoms campaign, but I think it was the What If campaign.
-
I just tested it. Your MX-50s don't track the Shivans. But your allies' do.
-
A remake of FS1 and/or FS2 is welcome but it has to be good and made by professionals. If, over a decade after the release of the games, members of the community decide to go this far and create a remake of :v:'s original campaigns, they can't afford to come out with a fiasco.
I'm not threatening anybody, of course, I'm just saying that such an effort can't be proposed and developed like a mere fan made project. It's much, much more.
-
The only thing HLP hasn't already done better than the retail campaigns is the voice acting, and mayyyybe the script.
-
The Colossus overcharged her beams, slagged her heat sinks on every major weapons system and blew her backup power system completely.
She definitely needed a refit after that.
The problem is that the mission doesn't reliably create a situation where this kind of exigency-driven at-all-costs engagement was necessary. If the Sath comes into High Noon with no beams, or if you disable them all very quickly, the Colossus' urgency just comes off as comedy.
"More firepower colossus! Alpha 1 is getting bored."
-
i'm stealing that line for my ****ty campaign that i won't finish making
it belongs to me now
:pimp:
-
Oh really. That quip sounds so axem.
-
Here is my two cents:
FS1 might need a "reborn" version in the future, because its gameplay lacks in variety, some missions are just dumb (especially the "Exodus"), the ending is a bit rushed and there are some plot inconsistencies here and there. In the end it's still 100 % playable, but only if you don't expect too much.
FS2 is much better, even after almost 15 years. The plot is taken to a new level, the level design is marvellous and the overall gameplay is solid. So it doesn't need a "reborn" or a remake version. However FS2 has some problematic missions. "Their finest hour" is already mentioned here, but the "Proving Grounds" deserves far more attention IMO.
"Proving Grounds" is the only mission that has a literally impossible secondary objective and another one that is extremely hard. I have played this mission countless times, both in FS2 retail and in FSO. Each and every time I end up with frustration. Let's take a closer look:
1) The first secondary objective tells you to defend a Fenris against Pegasus stealth crafts in training mode. Basically you have to shoot these pegagus' until they break off their attacks. It's very irregular how they behave and the "morning star" helps only a little. So far I have completed this objective twice in FS2 retail but not once in FSO.
2) The second secondary objective is the most problematic of them all. You have to destroy a Shivan Moloch named Tiamat before the Aquitaine escapes. This seems to be utterly impossible. I haven't been succesful at this even once, nor has any of my friends managed to complete it. Even if you know exactly where the Tiamat jumps in, it's not enough. The Aquitaine doesn't have enough firepower do destroy it in time, and the player has no weapons that could bring it below 1%.
In addition, it seems that there is a dialog inconsistency, since the command tells you that Molochs beam has taken Aquitaine down to 50 %. In reality, Moloch doesn't really damage the Aquitaine, the bombers do. It seems that at some point Moloch had a LRed in its nose (in the big circular red spot), but it was later removed, probably for immediate game balance reasons.
---
So what the mission "Proving Grounds" needs is that its secondary objectives have to be "reliably achievable". A quick fix would be to lower Tiamats starting HP, but the whole mission probably needs broader overhaul.
With regards to the rest of FS2 campaign, "remastering" would be the word I would use instead of "reborn", if we REALLY want to enhance the overall gameplay experience. Here is what a "remaster" would include:
- Balance tweaks in missions (Clash of the Titans II is so easy that it completes itself, without ANY input from the player)
- Loadout tweaks (I have always wanted to use Infyrno in "Their Finest Hour", because of its awesome anti-cruiser power. No reason to NOT have Infyrno in the loadout)
- Overall small bug fixes
- A slight increase in scale of battle in a couple of missions, now that we have much better computers than in 1999. (High Noon especially deserves more fighter and bomber squadrons, so that Alpha 1 has something to do)
So yeah. This "remaster" version would need no new voice acting, no new briefings etc. It would be only about small changes and a couple of bigger ones (for example "Proving Grounds").
What do you think about this?
-
Here is my two cents:
FS1 might need a "reborn" version in the future, because its gameplay lacks in variety, some missions are just dumb (especially the "Exodus"), the ending is a bit rushed and there are some plot inconsistencies here and there. In the end it's still 100 % playable, but only if you don't expect too much.
How'd you deal with plot inconsistencies? Some may not be considered inconsistencies at all. For example, the absence of beams and flaks in FS1 was justified by Snail (or somebody else, I don't remember), who essentially said that a Shivan ship could not have both beam weapons and intersystem jump drives that don't need nodes. There are many other theories around filling many holes in the FreeSpace timeline, and certain node inconsistencies are explainable by spontaneous jump node collapses. What I'm saying is that once we decide to remake FS1 and take care of all inconsistencies at the same time, we also need to decide how to deal with these issues... and I can ensure you that there will always be someone not agreeing with you. Personally, I'd stick with what we have in FS2 and apply it to FS1, but it's just an opinion I don't expect anyone to accept.
-
I've seen that Moloch die before. Unfortunately, I couldn't tell you how to reproduce it. I was just playing the mission normally, so it was dumb luck I guess.
-
When playing the mission with ko-op krew the only way we found to kill the Tiamat was mass disarm/disable and then bombarding it with EMP missiles, since the shocks do damage.
-
When playing the mission with ko-op krew the only way we found to kill the Tiamat was mass disarm/disable and then bombarding it with EMP missiles, since the shocks do damage.
That's what I did too. Took 20 minutes or so. :P
Actually, I heard the Aquitaine actually does decent damage to the Tiamat if you crank up the difficulties, but I can't say from experience of it actually works.
-
The Aquitaine can actually destroy the Tiamat, but you need to be positioned in the right place for it to do so. A lot of it depends on the Aquitaine's first salvo hitting the Tiamat. It usually doesn't occur on lower difficulties for some stupid reason.
-
If you are going to change FS2 at all, I would recommend This (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=86136.0). Very minor change that I believe will make a big difference.
Also crossed my mind.
-
The Aquitaine can actually destroy the Tiamat, but you need to be positioned in the right place for it to do so. A lot of it depends on the Aquitaine's first salvo hitting the Tiamat. It usually doesn't occur on lower difficulties for some stupid reason.
Perhaps it was intentional, :v: wanted to make that mission objective dependant on random circumstances and not on the player's skills. Pretty much like the Hinton in Rebels & Renegades (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Rebels_%26_Renegades): sometimes it is destroyed moments after the Vasudans begin their attack, sometimes it is destroyed by the Asar, sometimes it makes it to the end.
-
Isn't "random", like, the literal opposite of "intended"?
-
It was intended to be random. :)
-
idk about you but back when i played R&R the hinton pretty consistently survives if you try and protect it (this does often entail making that objective the center of your attention instead of the primary objective, but the point is it can be done).
if you ignore it well, then of course its up to luck/rng if it makes it out