Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => Gaming Discussion => Topic started by: Nakura on February 11, 2014, 08:41:10 pm
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Descent is now on Steam!
http://store.steampowered.com/app/273570/
Now it's only a matter of time before Descent 3 and FreeSpace 1 & 2 come to Steam!
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And?
You can already get this stuff DRM-free off GOG, why would you want it in a steam client?
It's cheaper on GOG as well. 9.99 for two games instead of 6.99 for one.
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Steam fails.
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That said, Steam seems to have a chance of reaching much broader audience than GOG. If D3 was released on Steam, it would probably liven up it's modding scene somewhat (last time I checked, it wasn't very active).
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Awesome. Fingers crossed for a FreeSpace release on Steam...assuming we can get rid of our long filepath problem...
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Also, if these games came to Steam, it's another thing that could hit the sales and generate some buys.
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You can already get this stuff DRM-free off GOG, why would you want it in a steam client?
Assuming tge "you" in this equation can be applied to HLP instead of just the end user, then the answer is simple: the vastly, incomparably greater user base associated with Steam vs GoG, that's why.
Imagine the sheer number of people that must download a given game (especially an old (i.e. Cheap) game with the kind if reputation FS2 has) off Steam, especially when there's a decent sale on. It's not unrealistic to expect Steam sales could overtake all other types of FS2 since launched combined, given the likely price and reach Steam offers. If half of those downloaders install FSO, and even a few percent of them decide to join HLP as modders, imagine the boost that would give the community! Getting on Steam is the best possible thing that could,happen to FS2 at this point, and given that Interplay now own the exclusive rights, any indication of Interplay working with Steam is a good sign for exactly that happening.
Descent was always a much bigger franchise than Freespace, so it makes sense that they would start there. Lets just hope they don't also decide to stop there.
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Much as I personally hate Steam, I think it would be good for the community to have the game available on there. I'd still want to push GOG as the best place to get it though.
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Why have the game available in two places when we could just have it available one place and act smug about it?
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Why have the game available in two places when we could just have it available one place and act smug about it?
It's silly, since it's not as though it was removed from GOG or anything. I use both GOG and Steam on a regular basis, but I don't think anyone can kid themselves into thinking that GOG has a vastly larger base than Steam.
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If FreeSpace lands on Steam, most of the projects run through HLP could be added to Steamworks as well, further promoting them as people will be likely to grab at least the graphical updates immediately after buying the base game.
That's nothing but good for this community.
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If FreeSpace lands on Steam, most of the projects run through HLP could be added to Steamworks as well, further promoting them as people will be likely to grab at least the graphical updates immediately after buying the base game.
That's nothing but good for this community.
Looks like it's going to happen, as they have an official community page set-up: http://steamcommunity.com/app/41610
Given that they are taking a while to release it (just like they did with D1), that hopefully means we can see some great Steam features (Steamworks, Steam in-game, achievements, trading cards, etc.) and possibly better optimization and/or multiplayer
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Given that they are taking a while to release it (just like they did with D1), that hopefully means we can see some great Steam features (Steamworks, Steam in-game, achievements, trading cards, etc.) and possibly better optimization and/or multiplayer
That is highly unlikely.
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Given that they are taking a while to release it (just like they did with D1), that hopefully means we can see some great Steam features (Steamworks, Steam in-game, achievements, trading cards, etc.) and possibly better optimization and/or multiplayer
That is highly unlikely.
The bold part is especially unlikely.
Though they wouldn't have to do anything at all to get the overlay working, IIRC.
Steamworks might get added, and that's the most beneficial addition we could get to it.
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Much as I personally hate Steam
Well, aren't you the unusual one.
May I ask why? I don't use Steam, but I may one day, and I've heard nothing but good things about it, people seem to love it. It would be interesting to hear some critique too.
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Steam is great and having freespace on it would be fantastic
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I don't use Steam
Whoa. Hard to find people who don't use Steam these days. I've currently got 107 games on Steam, which consists by far most of my games.
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Why have the game available in two places when we could just have it available one place and act smug about it?
It's not about quantity it's about quality. I consider GOG the superior service to steam because there's no DRM and no client. So to have a game put on Steam or Origin or wherever when it's already available on GOG to me is not much to celebrate whereas I would find the opposite more true.
But if Freespace being released on Steam would benefit the community here then I'd be all for it.
Much as I personally hate Steam
Well, aren't you the unusual one.
May I ask why? I don't use Steam, but I may one day, and I've heard nothing but good things about it, people seem to love it. It would be interesting to hear some critique too.
He's not the only one.
I hate Steam for one reason, because it's mandatory. Bought Half Life 2 back in the day and discovered it wasn't a full game but only a partially working game that I needed to download the rest from Steam to actually play. Then whenever I played I needed some Steam Client to be running to babysit me and make sure I wasn't a thief. Not only that but I couldn't resell the Half Life game on ebay or whatnot if I had wanted to.
PC's claim to fame over the consoles was that it was an open system. Steam is changing that, making it a closed system where an increasing number of games needs to be played through that platform instead of independent of it.
Not only that but Valve's focus on steam (and multiplayer games) has left their single-player games by the wayside.
I have Steam but avoid it unless it's the only place I can play a game (like the Civ 5 Humble Bundle I just bought)
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Personally I don't use Steam, but I've got no gripes against it. If FS was released on Steam it'd be a massive boost to us.
The link Nakura posted isn't working for me, is FreeSpace on Steam confirmed officially or is it just speculation?
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Steam is very much one of the few reasons why PC gaming is still alive and well today. It is a closed and proprietary platform for sure, makes Valve a lot of cash. So much in fact that they have no need to keep developing games. We live in capitalistic world, but if you can get past that you have a central platform from which you can manage your games, their addons, DLC's and even mods. Steam keeps your games up-to-date and provides many services to help you connect with people, like multiplayer games or sharing stuff. It syncs saves to cloud, keeping them safe in case your HDD crashes or something.
Without Steam developers and publishers would need to design, develop and maintain their own solutions to provide these same services. With multitude of different solutions, your computer would be cluttered with them and their quality would be nowhere near Steam. Just look at UPlay, all of those solutions would be even worse than UPlay is. Origin is actually pretty decent and it even has money-back guarantee, something that Steam doesn't have (yet at least).
Basically PC gaming would still be in the ages where managing your games, their addons, DLC's, mods and even updates would still require a lot of manual labor, like FSO does (or used to depending on how you view the situation today). Compared to the consoles, the situation would be so bad PC gaming would have probably died off. So you can thank Valve and Steam for being one of the few reasons why PC gaming is still kicking today. Heck, Steam might even be the most important reason.
And last but not least, as far as I know Steam has been very friendly to indie developers. Steam provides the necessary support and publicity to indie developers to get noticed. PC indie game scene has definitely improved the same rate as Steam's indie support has.
I don't know about you, but I love how easy Steam makes managing my games. Sure Steam itself is DRM, but as far as DRM goes its really good at staying out of user's way. At least if your games are legit and you have solid internet connection.
As far as GOG goes, most of their games are old (well duh?) and thus have no need to stay up-to-date, support multiplayer services, manage addons, DLC's and mods. But assuming they did, then GOG would be out of luck without something like Steam. It would be unreasonable to expect people to visit their website, download game installer, install the game and then left to their own devices as to how to keep their games up-to-date, set up multiplayer games and manage all other relevant ****.
Comparing Steam to GOG is like comparing apples to oranges. It really is.
is FreeSpace on Steam confirmed officially or is it just speculation?
Complete speculation.
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As far as GOG goes, most of their games are old (well duh?) and thus have no need to stay up-to-date, support multiplayer services, manage addons, DLC's and mods. But assuming they did, then GOG would be out of luck without something like Steam. It would be unreasonable to expect people to visit their website, download game installer, install the game and then left to their own devices as to how to keep their games up-to-date, set up multiplayer games and manage all other relevant ****.
GOG notifies you if your game has been updated every time you log onto the website. They provide files to update it which are as simple as downloading and running.
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I like GOG for older games but, like Fury, I have zero opposition to Steam and I think it is a net positive for PC gaming. Like he said, the DRM component is now virtually invisible. Always-on connection would have been obnoxious a decade ago, but now the majority of PC gamers have broadband service (and Steam has an offline mode).
Moreover, what is greatest is that PC gaming is no longer a fiddly pain in the ass. Used to be, I'd have to visit official sites for patch news, find a working download link, wait for ages for a space on the download server, download the patch, install the patch, boot the game and hope it works, and frequently reinstall the entire game with the cumulative patches because the piecemeal process made a mess of it.
Now?
Launch Steam. Wait for update. Play game.
When I was a kid, I had time to deal with the fiddly crap that came along with gaming. Now, with job, wife, two kids, and some responsibility (how it sucks) I just want to be able to sit down at my PC and play a game for an hour without any sort of effort being put into getting it running.
Downloading all the mods/patches to get the Thief games running on my PC made me vividly recall why I now like Steam so much. It's actually getting to the point where I am less interested in games that do not have Steam distribution because they often come with alternative platforms - see Starcraft 2, Mass Effect 3, etc. I would be more than happy if publishers began releasing their games on all the platforms, and let consumers choose their preference; mine would be Steam in a heartbeat.
As for Steam versus GOG - they serve two different purposes (or did; they're merging closer now). I log into Steam almost daily; GOG I visit maybe once every 3-4 months... maybe.
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GOG notifies you if your game has been updated every time you log onto the website. They provide files to update it which are as simple as downloading and running.
Here's the thing. Steam also provides you with files to update your games. It's as simple as starting up Steam. You don't even have to manually log in. In fact, I'm with MP-Ryan on that one - Steam simplifies things a lot. Considering how much effort I had to put into getting Descent II to run (though admittedly, I wanted their Mediavps-like graphics update), if it was released on Steam in "works out of the box" state (not always a given with old games on Steam, though it should be...), I'd probably end up buying it, assuming my father haven't bought it off GOG already. Many games, especially old ones, are difficult to install and get to work afterwards. Just look at FS2. I don't think retail would work "out of the box" under latest Windows and getting FSO to work is hard, as the ongoing installer discussion in SCP board can attest.
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Compared to the consoles, the situation would be so bad PC gaming would have probably died off. So you can thank Valve and Steam for being one of the few reasons why PC gaming is still kicking today. Heck, Steam might even be the most important reason.
That's probably not true and really overly exaggerated. The screams of 'the death of PC gaming! PC gaming is dying!', we've all heard those for decades now, it hasn't happened and it wouldn't have happened even without Steam.
Aside from that, you are right though, Steam has been a huge boon to PC gaming in recent years. (Though it sucked pretty hard in its early years) I haven't bought a physical game disk for years now, because going outside seems like so much effort when I can just start up Steam and get the game running nearly instantly!
Moreover, what is greatest is that PC gaming is no longer a fiddly pain in the ass. Used to be, I'd have to visit official sites for patch news, find a working download link, wait for ages for a space on the download server, download the patch, install the patch, boot the game and hope it works, and frequently reinstall the entire game with the cumulative patches because the piecemeal process made a mess of it.
Man, back in the day I never saw this as an issue... but now looking back at it, it really was kind of a mess.
Sometimes you needed to get 3 different patches and install them in the right order and if you did it wrong you had to reinstall the whole thing and such. If you could get a working download link in the first place!
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GOG notifies you if your game has been updated every time you log onto the website. They provide files to update it which are as simple as downloading and running.
Here's the thing. Steam also provides you with files to update your games. It's as simple as starting up Steam. You don't even have to manually log in. In fact, I'm with MP-Ryan on that one - Steam simplifies things a lot. Considering how much effort I had to put into getting Descent II to run (though admittedly, I wanted their Mediavps-like graphics update), if it was released on Steam in "works out of the box" state (not always a given with old games on Steam, though it should be...), I'd probably end up buying it, assuming my father haven't bought it off GOG already. Many games, especially old ones, are difficult to install and get to work afterwards. Just look at FS2. I don't think retail would work "out of the box" under latest Windows and getting FSO to work is hard, as the ongoing installer discussion in SCP board can attest.
Yeah thanks,
But I would rather log in once to GOG, get my game and play it.
Then "benefit" from logging into Steam EVERY TIME I want to play ANYTHING.
Steam is essentially making sure you're not thieving. It assumes you're not honest. And it's convinced you that it's a good thing.
Consoles are closed systems too but at least I can sell my games or trade them in if I choose (biggest downside being lack of backwards compatibility).
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I also feel that for multiplayer games Steam really helps in finding others that also are playing the game online. I have never had a problem with Steam myself. I can go between my desktop and my gaming laptop when I travel and all my games are the same and up to date.
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Steam is essentially making sure you're not thieving. It assumes you're not honest. And it's convinced you that it's a good thing.
I'm curious why you assume this is the primary purpose of Steam rather than any of the other manifest ones. Indeed, I'm curious why you are so determined that purpose clearly outweighs all the other ones, when frankly it's really pretty silly; any Steam-type game that you would have actually stolen would be disconnected from the related service.
Steam isn't, and cannot be, what you are saying it is. It can't check you're not being a thief. It doesn't have the means. Unless, I dunno, you think Steam is monitoring your hard drive for unauthorized copies of the games in the Steam library. (It isn't.)
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Steam is essentially making sure you're not thieving. It assumes you're not honest. And it's convinced you that it's a good thing.
That's only for a few games that would otherwise have included - or in some cases still include - their own DRM. For a huge number of games on Steam, you can play them in offline mode just as easily as you can in online, with no interruption and no "please wait while we make sure you aren't stealing this" in case your internet cuts out.
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Yeah. I've heard Origin scanned your HD, presumably for this purpose, but not Steam (and if it ever does, I'll know, and it's COMODO sandbox for it :) ). And you can not log into Steam whenever you want to play anything. Just put it into offline mode and it's done. Compared to other DRM systems, Steam is really good and nonintrusive.
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Damn was just running over from FB to post about this, Nakura beat me to it! :D
But nah, I only ever had a PS1 demo if this, but that alone was pretty impressive for the time.
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Quite simply I don't like Steam because.
1) I don't like the requirement of an always on connection (Which I don't have).
2) I inherently prefer my games DRM free. I don't care if it is unintrusive, a game with no DRM is less likely to fall over than a game with it.
3) I prefer having a download which allows me to install the game when I like, where I like. If I have the installer, it's as simple as just running it again. I don't even need an internet connection.
4) I prefer GOG in general. I think they have a much better attitude towards sales (Their latest 30 years of gaming sale was fun, and I spent way too much money last time they had a winter sale).
It's a personal choice, and I tend to get very tired of the "You must use Steam!" crowd.
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I find it just incomprehensible how people can still think there's an "always on connection" component to steam anymore. I frequently (frequently!) simply disable my laptop's wireless and pick a game to play where I won't be interrupted, and it has zero effect on what games I can and can't play beyond excluding the obvious multiplayer-only ones.
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I'm curious why you assume this is the primary purpose of Steam rather than any of the other manifest ones. Indeed, I'm curious why you are so determined that purpose clearly outweighs all the other ones, when frankly it's really pretty silly; any Steam-type game that you would have actually stolen would be disconnected from the related service.
Because it's not optional.
It's mandatory that Steam is used with some games, and when something I don't want becomes mandatory on my computer then the service is no longer benefiting me, it's benefiting someone else.
And like many people my first introduction to Steam was via Half Life 2, and at the time I purchased that game I was looking for a game, not a client or a storefront to hold my hand.
3) I prefer having a download which allows me to install the game when I like, where I like. If I have the installer, it's as simple as just running it again. I don't even need an internet connection.
That sale was sweet. Picked up some great games.
Yeah. I've heard Origin scanned your HD, presumably for this purpose, but not Steam (and if it ever does, I'll know, and it's COMODO sandbox for it :) ). And you can not log into Steam whenever you want to play anything. Just put it into offline mode and it's done. Compared to other DRM systems, Steam is really good and nonintrusive.
You do realize that you're praising a system which has taken any sense of ownership of your games away from you right?
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You do realize that you're praising a system which has taken any sense of ownership of your games away from you right?
Steam doesn't "take away any sense of ownership of your games away from you". On the contrary, you can go to any computer in the world that has Steam, log in under your account, and install/play any game in your collection.
Do I prefer to own games through a DRM-free service like GOG? Absolutely. Do I have any objection to owning games on Steam? Of course not! This isn't Origin here; I actually find the Steam community features incredibly useful. I want to play multiplayer with someone? I click the drop-down menu next to their name and hit "join game". Steam not only launches the game, it also makes it immediately send a connection request to the server the other person is playing on. If you think features like that aren't the reason people use Steam, you're very mistaken.
Quite simply, if I didn't want to deal with any of Steam's secondary features, I would crack the games to remove all Steam functionality. It has been done plenty of times; clearly, it can be done in the future. I continue to use Steam because I like it, not because I'm forced into it. This has been the case since I originally got Steam, back when the Orange Box came out.
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I find it just incomprehensible how people can still think there's an "always on connection" component to steam anymore. I frequently (frequently!) simply disable my laptop's wireless and pick a game to play where I won't be interrupted, and it has zero effect on what games I can and can't play beyond excluding the obvious multiplayer-only ones.
If they've gotten rid of that annoyance, that's great. It isn't the main reason I don't use Steam though. I just simply don't much like it.
As I said, I have no issue with FS being available on Steam, but I think we should push GOG at least as much if not more simply because they have no DRM.
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Definitely disagree. If your criteria for what deserves more support comes down to interpreting the Boolean value for DRM-present, then by all means. However, if your criteria for what deserves more support comes down to what's more helpful for growth of both userbase and support for the game itself, Steam is the no-brainer.
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Well, in our case, going with GOG version might be better because FSO requires extensive modifications to FS2 which Steam might not like. In fact, you'll probably lose all Steam features when installing FSO, and people will likely complain. It could probably be added to Steam as a free mod (which would be really awesome and would solve all our installer woes), but somehow, I don't think this'll happen.
Anyway, Steam would be great for bringing new players into the game, but if FSO installation stays as arcane as it is now, it's sure not gonna bring them here, at least not without a lot of complaints about stuff not working, Steam stuff not working, etc. GOG doesn't have nearly as much of those problems, at least.
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In fact, you'll probably lose all Steam features when installing FSO, and people will likely complain.
I have to ask why on Earth this would happen? No other Steam game I personally own and mod (and there are a few) has ever had any trouble with mods or add-ons that resulted in loss of Steam features. Steam doesn't do anything to your game at all - it's an overlay, a program running in the background.
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The issue might be that running FSO requires the usage of a custom executable and launcher, whereas the actual Steam library entry would be tied to the retail ones. That might be something one could submit as a free mod, though.
In any case, the argument is rather pointless: why would we need to push one choice over the other? We just need to tell people, "Here are the places where you can buy the game," and let them make their own choices, while just making sure that we have separate instructions available as required.
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My New Vegas Mod Manager launcher gives Steam exactly zero problems.
I object less to the content of the suggestion, and much more to the fear mongering Dragon was up to. Perpetuating flat-out wrong myths about one side or the other under the guise of "discussion" is disingenuous. At best.
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Dragon does have a point with Steam and FSO though. You see, all games in Steam library use executables provided by their respective developers, in co-operation with Valve to make sure all Steam related features work, not just the overlay UI. Retail executables of FS2 may not even work properly on modern Windows OS, at least the retail launcher does not.
What this means is that someone needs to modify these executables to work without issues from WinXP to Win8. And I honestly don't think these people will think twice about SCP and rest of the HLP. Which means when you drop FSO executables in there, not all Steam related features may work anymore.
But I don't think it's all that big of an issue, the overlay UI should still work just fine and everything else I can think of are mostly trivial. Unless they get around to provide multiplayer services. Getting Steam's multiplayer service working with FSO might be a challenge. I don't know how Valve likes open-source projects using Steam infrastructure or whether they have well documented APIs exactly for this.
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That's assuming, of course, that Interplay will do any work on the executables, which is the part I find highly doubtful. At best, they'll copy the GOG version and leave it at that.
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You do realize that you're praising a system which has taken any sense of ownership of your games away from you right?
Steam doesn't "take away any sense of ownership of your games away from you". On the contrary, you can go to any computer in the world that has Steam, log in under your account, and install/play any game in your collection.
Do I prefer to own games through a DRM-free service like GOG? Absolutely. Do I have any objection to owning games on Steam? Of course not! This isn't Origin here; I actually find the Steam community features incredibly useful. I want to play multiplayer with someone? I click the drop-down menu next to their name and hit "join game". Steam not only launches the game, it also makes it immediately send a connection request to the server the other person is playing on. If you think features like that aren't the reason people use Steam, you're very mistaken.
Quite simply, if I didn't want to deal with any of Steam's secondary features, I would crack the games to remove all Steam functionality. It has been done plenty of times; clearly, it can be done in the future. I continue to use Steam because I like it, not because I'm forced into it. This has been the case since I originally got Steam, back when the Orange Box came out.
Can you sell your game?
No?
Then you don't own jack.
Steam doesn't sell games. It sells a service that allows you to play games. You subscribe to the service, you buy access to games through that service but at no point do you actually own your game. And license issues of the past aside, I could at least then (and with consoles now) take in my disk to a store or online and sell it to someone else.
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My New Vegas Mod Manager launcher gives Steam exactly zero problems.
I object less to the content of the suggestion, and much more to the fear mongering Dragon was up to. Perpetuating flat-out wrong myths about one side or the other under the guise of "discussion" is disingenuous. At best.
The Nexus Mod Manager only moves data files around in the game directory; when you tell it to actually run the game, it just launches the executable that comes with the Steam version. Even things like SKSE just serve as wrappers for the Steam executable, which contains the actual code for interfacing with Steam. FSO, on the other hand, completely bypasses the retail Freespace2.exe: it's not run at all, and neither are its Steam features. This, again, is assuming Interplay have any of the resources needed to add Steam integration; they likely don't.
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My New Vegas Mod Manager launcher gives Steam exactly zero problems.
I object less to the content of the suggestion, and much more to the fear mongering Dragon was up to. Perpetuating flat-out wrong myths about one side or the other under the guise of "discussion" is disingenuous. At best.
The Nexus Mod Manager only moves data files around in the game directory; when you tell it to actually run the game, it just launches the executable that comes with the Steam version. Even things like SKSE just serve as wrappers for the Steam executable, which contains the actual code for interfacing with Steam. FSO, on the other hand, completely bypasses the retail Freespace2.exe: it's not run at all, and neither are its Steam features. This, again, is assuming Interplay have any of the resources needed to add Steam integration; they likely don't.
There is some precedent for this, however. The Steam versions of the Thuief games can have their executables entirely replaced with engine-upgraded versions without breaking the minimal Steam integration.
Ultimately, I don't see Steam applying all kinds of the more advanced features to a game as old as FreeSpace - but, with distribution and forums associated with Steam, it provides a massive opening for encouraging people to convert their retail install to FSO.
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Note that the Steam overlay isn't 'true' Steam integration (i.e. use of the Steamworks API); it's a simple wrapper which can be run with any game, to my knowledge.
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By using the "add a non-Steam game" option, you can already run FreeSpace Open with the Steam overlay (well, assuming the overlay can interface with FSO in the first place; I don't remember if I actually tried it).
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Note that the Steam overlay isn't 'true' Steam integration (i.e. use of the Steamworks API); it's a simple wrapper which can be run with any game, to my knowledge.
The overlay is supposed to work with any game running DirectX, IIRC.
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Some experiences that Steam can't replace:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4A-T1-R_4Q
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Can you sell your game?
No?
Then you don't own jack.
Steam doesn't sell games. It sells a service that allows you to play games. You subscribe to the service, you buy access to games through that service but at no point do you actually own your game. And license issues of the past aside, I could at least then (and with consoles now) take in my disk to a store or online and sell it to someone else.
You realize that pretty much no physical used games store I can think of dealt in used PC games for many years now (if ever), right? In fact there's no real way they COULD do that, because there was nothing to stop someone from keeping their game key, copying their disks, and selling a now-unusable copy back to the store. (Assuming that said game performed an online check on the key during installation; I know some old games only did it if you attempted to play online.) I'd certainly never trust buying a used PC game on something like Amazon, for the exact same reason. The freedom you speak of Steam infringing on didn't really exist in the first place anyway, at least not for PC games.
And yes, you can throw a FSO shortcut into Steam and have the overlay work just fine; I do that myself. It still entails having to list the game as a separate non-Steam entry in your library, though, which isn't the most optimal solution.
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I should add that IIRC Steam does allow you to trade games with someone else, assuming neither have played the games to be traded. In addition, when it comes to selling used games you should remember that it's not really Steam's place to allow that, but publishers and developers. You have to remember that neither will get anything out of used game sales. They would rather people buy new copies so they can get their money.
For used games sales to happen, there would have to be money in it for Valve, publishers and developers. All three are required to make it happen. Also remember that even before Steam happened or became popular, publishers did their best to make sure everyone got their own copies by using cd-keys and various other measures to individualize each copy of the game. So really, is Steam at fault here? I think not.
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Can you sell your game?
No?
Then you don't own jack.
Steam doesn't sell games. It sells a service that allows you to play games. You subscribe to the service, you buy access to games through that service but at no point do you actually own your game. And license issues of the past aside, I could at least then (and with consoles now) take in my disk to a store or online and sell it to someone else.
You realize that pretty much no physical used games store I can think of dealt in used PC games for many years now (if ever), right? In fact there's no real way they COULD do that, because there was nothing to stop someone from keeping their game key, copying their disks, and selling a now-unusable copy back to the store. (Assuming that said game performed an online check on the key during installation; I know some old games only did it if you attempted to play online.) I'd certainly never trust buying a used PC game on something like Amazon, for the exact same reason. The freedom you speak of Steam infringing on didn't really exist in the first place anyway, at least not for PC games.
Used PC market doesn't exist? Tell that to the dozen+ used games I have in my room right now which play perfectly fine.
If the game used online activation then of course you don't buy it used. But many other games didn't use such DRM. Freespace for example, the game this forum is built around, uses disk-in-drive DRM. There'd be nothing stopping me from selling that game to someone else and nothing stopping them from enjoying it. Older games used code wheels and all kinds of other nonsense.
As for used games in stores. Prince of Persia Sands of Time I bought used from EB Games.
For used games sales to happen, there would have to be money in it for Valve, publishers and developers. All three are required to make it happen. Also remember that even before Steam happened or became popular, publishers did their best to make sure everyone got their own copies by using cd-keys and various other measures to individualize each copy of the game. So really, is Steam at fault here? I think not.
YES they're at fault. First of all why in the **** are you defending a corporation in the first place? A corporation which has taken away any sense of ownership? It's baffling. Seriously.
If someone is laying on the ground, and three guys kick him in the head, if the fourth person (valve) kicks him in the head because it's the thing to do is he not responsible? Of course he's ****ing responsible because they've taken the policy and run with it. A company is not blameless for doing what everyone else is doing, nor are they blameless for providing the means to do what everyone else is doing.
Their DRM is deliberate and it's insulting. And the fact that people defend it as some positive thing in your life is . . sad quite frankly. If Steam benefits PC gaming as a store, as a digital distributor, that's fine, but the DRM side of things? It's entirely condemnable.
Either way I choose not to use Steam when at all possible.
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ITT people living in 1995 who are baffled that PC games have CD-keys and cannot be resold. What makes it even more hilarious/sad is that you are attacking perhaps the only good company on the market, Valve, a company that has done everything in it's power to put customers first and to eliminate DRM. Hell, a company that single-handedly saved PC gaming and supports indie developers. Yet you're mad because you can't sell your copy of Half-Life 2 (something you wouldn't have been able to do anyway)?
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Speaking of GOG. All the D&D games for a hair over $20 (http://www.gog.com/promo/hasbro_weekend_promo_140214). And you've got about 3 hours for their Valentine's Day Sale (Be my Player 2 :D )
They're also giving away Dungeon Keeper for free. Just to make EA look bad. :p
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First of all why in the **** are you defending a corporation in the first place?
I just want to draw attention to this particular sentence. I'd add a bit more context but the context really only specifies it a little bit toward Valve. This speaks to a certain blind hate for corporations that is both irrational and non-sensical. A corporation is no more inherently evil (or good) than you are, and hating the very concept of them makes you look like you're trying to crusade against the robber barons of the late 19th century. This is not 1900, and all this blind refusal indicates is a sadly misguided understanding of the way Valve works.
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This thread is an interesting microcosm of the views on Steam, generally. You have a tiny minority of diehards who hate it entirely and do everything they can to avoid using it, yet are still forced to do so at least some of the time, while the vast majority are at worst ambivalent and mostly fairly enthusiastic about its positives. This is why Steam has been so successful - for the vast majority of PC gamers, the benefits vastly outweigh the negatives, given the alternatives (Balkanized heavy DRM, basically).
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ITT people living in 1995 who are baffled that PC games have CD-keys and cannot be resold. What makes it even more hilarious/sad is that you are attacking perhaps the only good company on the market, Valve, a company that has done everything in it's power to put customers first and to eliminate DRM. Hell, a company that single-handedly saved PC gaming and supports indie developers. Yet you're mad because you can't sell your copy of Half-Life 2 (something you wouldn't have been able to do anyway)?
There seem to be some historical innacuracies in your statement (as well as a bit of ad hominem :/).
When Half Life 2 was released, being able to resell games was still quite a thing (Even MP only games, who had a "only one CD key online at one time" policy instead of tying it to an account). Valve's Half LIfe 2 and steam were one of the most stringent DRMs of their time. As far as I know, they were the first company to enforce online activation for single player games. They have not stepped down from this policy ever since, whilst copies of, say, Call of Duty could be resold up untill MW2 (when the series moved towards steam).
Valve has not done anything to eliminate DRM. Companies like Paradox and CD project are far more progressive in that regard.
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Valve's Half LIfe 2 and steam were one of the most stringent DRMs of their time.
...So you're saying Steam is worse than StarForce?
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Valve has not done anything to eliminate DRM. Companies like Paradox and CD project are far more progressive in that regard.
What they did do however is create a DRM system that users will accept, rather than be annoyed with. Not because Steamworks is so secure, it isn't, but because it rewards people who stay in the system through easy multiplayer access, cross-game chat functionality, and other community features.
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Valve's Half LIfe 2 and steam were one of the most stringent DRMs of their time.
...So you're saying Steam is worse than StarForce?
There is a reason why I said ONE of the most :P.
What they did do however is create a DRM system that users will accept, rather than be annoyed with. Not because Steamworks is so secure, it isn't, but because it rewards people who stay in the system through easy multiplayer access, cross-game chat functionality, and other community features.
True, and I don't disagree with steam as a principle (even though it took them a while to get it fully sorted). It's just that this MO does not match up to what Nakura claims, which I felt needed pointing out.
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Valve has not done anything to eliminate DRM. Companies like Paradox and CD project are far more progressive in that regard.
What they did do however is create a DRM system that users will accept, rather than be annoyed with. Not because Steamworks is so secure, it isn't, but because it rewards people who stay in the system through easy multiplayer access, cross-game chat functionality, and other community features.
It's the free market at work, something we rarely see happen. PC gaming would have died without Steam, as many publishers would never release their games on PC, and those that did would be using things like uPlay.
Not only that, but Steam has changed the way game retailers operate. Steam has forced it's competitors to adapt Steam features that the customers want and to sell their games at reasonable prices. Look at GOG, Origin, the Xbox Marketplace, and others; Steam has set standards for the industry that these companies have to follow or else nobody would use their service.
Look at how GOG, Origin and even Microsoft are following the Steam model of providing customers with good sales. Look at how DRM has become vastly less intrusive; even Origin is a fairly good platform, when compared to things like uPlay. Look at the Origin overlay and community features, which are almost identical to those Steam offers. Heck, Microsoft has even been giving away two free AAA games each month, something that never would have happened. Steam has changed the industry for the better and created an environment that we can all be proud of and where everyone wins. Customers win by getting the best deals possible, amazing features and non-intrusive DRM; companies win by getting a platform that is stable and that customers are more than happy to use; and the industry wins, because it saved PC gaming.
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While I don't think PC gaming was "saved" by Steam, it did certainly benefit from it. It probably wouldn't have died without Steam, but it did risk stagnation of sorts. Steam brought a lot of indie games to general public and incredibly changed the PC gaming marked. Previously, indie games were few and far between, with game studios dependent on big publishers' whims. Now, a game studio can work without a publisher just fine, and plenty of them do so. Many projects too big to go 100% freeware and too small to get a publisher to make boxes for them were sold via Steam, where otherwise they'd remain just a neat idea in someone's head.
Oh, and where did you find this MS game giveaway? I've been out of the loop for quite some time (bloody exams), and it's not like free games cost anything. :)
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While I don't think PC gaming was "saved" by Steam, it did certainly benefit from it. It probably wouldn't have died without Steam, but it did risk stagnation of sorts. Steam brought a lot of indie games to general public and incredibly changed the PC gaming marked. Previously, indie games were few and far between, with game studios dependent on big publishers' whims. Now, a game studio can work without a publisher just fine, and plenty of them do so. Many projects too big to go 100% freeware and too small to get a publisher to make boxes for them were sold via Steam, where otherwise they'd remain just a neat idea in someone's head.
Oh, and where did you find this MS game giveaway? I've been out of the loop for quite some time (bloody exams), and it's not like free games cost anything. :)
They giveaway new games at the 1st and 16th of each month to Xbox Live Gold members. Just sign into dashboard, then go to the Games Marketplace and you should see a tab about the free game they are currently giving away.
Here's more info: http://www.xbox.com/en-US/live/games-with-gold
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I think the real sense in which one can say that Steam "saved" PC gaming is that it proved to the publishing industry that a vibrant market for PC titles existed, and indeed one that was largely untapped before many of the advances that Steam built. It enabled publishers to garner audiences that weren't limited to the old guard who remembered fiddling with IRQ ports, mostly because it eliminated the need for wild-goose chases to figure out just what sequence of patches one needed to properly update one's game, and other such installation quirks. For instance, I have a friend who (despite her other talents) couldn't computer her way out of a paper bag, yet she has a good collection of titles via Steam that she plays without issue every day.
...granted, they're all terrible titles, because she seems to have a perverse fascination with intentionally playing awful games, but still!
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Three to Five minutes.
This is how long I have had to wait the last two times I launched Sid Meir's Pirates because Steam isn't connecting to its server or whatever the hell is wrong with it. It takes that long to give me the offline option when it should be offline 100% to begin with.
And people are trying to tell me that Steam is a benefit to my PC gaming? (I got Pirates via the Humble Bundle btw, not Steam)
Steam can go **** itself.
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Good job completely ignoring all the good arguments in this thread because of one frustrating experience you had.
A problem that is most likely on your end to begin with, rather than a problem with Steam. You probably haven't even tried contacting steam support, since you seem so comfortable with thinking Steam sucks instead of trying to fix it.
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So the argument is made that Steam makes it much easier for the technically illiterate user to install and play games, and the second someone points out a problem you complain that it must be due to their technical illiteracy?
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Like being in offline mode on Steam? Do this thing:
Make sure your password and stuff are saved to auto-login to Steam.
Switch to offline mode, and quit Steam.
Create a new document in your simple text editor of choice, paste the following two lines into it, save as "steam.cfg" (without the quotes, and not steam.cfg.txt) in the folder where your Steam.exe resides.
BootStrapperInhibitAll=enable
ForceOfflineMode=enableNow, every time that Steam starts, you'll be prompted with the option to start in offline mode.
Now Steam is just a launcher for your games. No friends list, no store, no cloud saves, no auto-updates, just games. And of course, this won't work for those games which use Steam as DRM.
But for those games, ask yourself if you'd prefer Steam as DRM, or something else. Rest assured that publishers who insist on including DRM are not going to give it up; "get rid of DRM" is a nice sentiment, but not going to happen. So it's either Steam or something much worse, take your pick.
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They aren't going to give it up, because they know people will still buy it.
The fact that GOG publishes big name games like The Witcher without DRM kinda shows that it can be done. Sadly people have gotten comfortable with Steam's DRM and with using worse DRM as a reason to accept it. Which I consider like being okay with being slapped occasionally cause other people get kicked in the nuts daily.
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Haters gonna hate and will grasp any trivial reason to continue hating.
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This isn't about being a hater. Quite frankly, I don't buy many new games so Steam has little to offer me as I can get old games just as easily from GOG.
I was simply pointing out the stupidity of the argument that cause Origin, etc are worse this somehow makes the DRM in Steam okay.
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I personally think Origin is actually better. The customor support can solve rudimentary problems in several hours or even several minutes if you use live chat, whilst Steam takes you a week to tell you that it's not their problem :/.
It also had a working offline mode long before steam finally decided to fix their buggy system.
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Oh yeah, Origin definitely has much better customer support than Steam does. Been there done that. Plus, can't argue with their "don't like it, return it" guarantee.
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There's two parts to this topic. Steam, and Descent. One part is missing. So in interest of talking about something other than Steam (since that discussion is getting... heated) I'm going to ask about Descent.
Anyone who's grabbed it, does it have an improved graphics engine in it? Something along the lines of D2X-XL? 'Cause that's how I play it now (1920 x 1080, word up) with fancy effects and no quality drop or fuzzy edges. So awesome.
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Anyone who's grabbed it, does it have an improved graphics engine in it? Something along the lines of D2X-XL? 'Cause that's how I play it now (1920 x 1080, word up) with fancy effects and no quality drop or fuzzy edges. So awesome.
The steam version is the original DOS version with DOSBox. However, D2X-XL is totally awesome if you configure it properly (last time I played with it, I had to fiddle with a bajillion different menus just to get sensible gameplay with shiny graphics). Fortunately, if memory serves, D2X-XL can also play the original Descent.
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The steam version is the original DOS version with DOSBox. However, D2X-XL is totally awesome if you configure it properly (last time I played with it, I had to fiddle with a bajillion different menus just to get sensible gameplay with shiny graphics). Fortunately, if memory serves, D2X-XL can also play the original Descent.
Indeed it can. I have beaten both games on D2X-XL repeatedly.
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Nice that they're selling Descent on Steam now, will probably pick it up, I only have II and III.
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Good job completely ignoring all the good arguments in this thread because of one frustrating experience you had.
A problem that is most likely on your end to begin with, rather than a problem with Steam. You probably haven't even tried contacting steam support, since you seem so comfortable with thinking Steam sucks instead of trying to fix it.
Here's another problem with Steam.
I have two Towers in my house (one belongs to Sauron, one to Sarumon).
A friend gave me his nerd gaming tower some time ago. It's powerful enough to run some of the newer games like Civ 5 and such which I bought while my older tower which is some 6-7 years old will not.
One problem. The house uses a wireless router. My main computer has a wireless receiver, the gaming tower does not.
So despite the fact I own these games. And despite the fact I SHOULD be able to just transfer this **** on a USB drive from one tower to another, I'm betting that without an internet connection on my second tower I will be unable to play the games that I own (so far as Steam allows for ownership, which btw it doesn't). Compare this to GOG where I can just take the single install file off my computer, and put them onto the second computer and run them.
So if I actually want to play these games I have three options:
1. piss around with the wireless receiver, move back and forth between the two towers in order to install them.
2. Spend 100 dollars on a second receiver
3. Spend 300-400 or more dollars on a new computer to play these games.
or technically, also:
4. Make the gaming tower my main tower, something which I don't really want to do because it's butt ugly. It would still require me to move the receiver from one to the other.
Or maybe I can just straight copy the directories, but I would think that Steam is set up to disallow that.
FURTHERMORE, interesting point.
At the same time that Steam was saying that it "couldn't connect to the servers" I was posting a message about it on HLP. So I have an internet connection that is working, but Steam isn't working. When I retried 5-6 minutes later Steam connected fine without me messing around with anything.
So the most likely problem then was with Steam. Steam couldn't get access. Or perhas my internet connection hicupped for that one span of 30 seconds that Steam was trying to connect. So Steam isn't "always online DRM" but it is "needs to be online when you want to play your game" DRM which is not too far off. Granted it lets you play eventually but after 3-5 minutes of waiting. Three to five minutes of waiting was fine in the Apple II days, I don't consider it acceptable now. Especially when I'm not waiting for the actual game but for an unrelated client.
Though according to Scourge there's an offline by default mode. Which apparently isn't in the default options menu and requires a work around.
I'm sorry but any program that gets in the way of me playing my game is not a benefit. It doesn't have to get in the way a lot, doesn't have to get in the way for long, as long as it gets in the way it's impeding my enjoyment of programs I paid good money for.
Like being in offline mode on Steam? Do this thing:
Make sure your password and stuff are saved to auto-login to Steam.
Switch to offline mode, and quit Steam.
Create a new document in your simple text editor of choice, paste the following two lines into it, save as "steam.cfg" (without the quotes, and not steam.cfg.txt) in the folder where your Steam.exe resides.
BootStrapperInhibitAll=enable
ForceOfflineMode=enableNow, every time that Steam starts, you'll be prompted with the option to start in offline mode.
Now Steam is just a launcher for your games. No friends list, no store, no cloud saves, no auto-updates, just games. And of course, this won't work for those games which use Steam as DRM.
But for those games, ask yourself if you'd prefer Steam as DRM, or something else. Rest assured that publishers who insist on including DRM are not going to give it up; "get rid of DRM" is a nice sentiment, but not going to happen. So it's either Steam or something much worse, take your pick.
Thanks for the tip about the offline mode. Though frankly this option should be in the Steam Options menu. It shouldn't require some tech-savvy hack.
As for DRM.
Given that the only PC DRM to interfere with my Gaming is Steam, then I would take the other DRM thanks.
Like, do people enjoy loading screens? Steam is a big loading screen for me. It's a loading screen that my game technically doesn't need.
In addition it also puts all my eggs in one basket. People's accounts for Steam and other online services have gotten hijacked. And while it's true that GOG can likewise get hijacked, that's only the website, not the files downloaded onto your computer. If My account were to get hacked and the password changed I wouldn't be able to play anything. Then in addition in order to ensure that my stuff doesn't get hacked or that I can reclaim it I probably need to provide them with more information than I frankly want to. Xbox likewise keeps bugging me for my phone number, etcetera and it's a pain in the ass there as well.
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So if I actually want to play these games I have three options:
1. piss around with the wireless receiver, move back and forth between the two towers in order to install them.
2. Spend 100 dollars on a second receiver
3. Spend 300-400 or more dollars on a new computer to play these games.
or technically, also:
4. Make the gaming tower my main tower, something which I don't really want to do because it's butt ugly. It would still require me to move the receiver from one to the other.
Or maybe I can just straight copy the directories, but I would think that Steam is set up to disallow that.
You can just straight copy directories. The games might not work right away since they technically still need to be "installed", but it'll at least save downloading time for the bulk of the data. Here's what I would suggest:
Copy the root Steam directory and the folders for each of the games you want to transfer to the gaming tower.
Get an ethernet cable, and hook up your gaming computer directly to your router/hub (hopefully that'll be possible).
Install/run Steam on that tower, and update all the games you transferred. Start all of them so that they get updated and activated or whatever.
Set Steam up to do offline mode all the time.
Unplug it.
OR: cannibalize both towers into a single super-tower for gaming, and if you have enough parts left over, have a work tower for non-internet stuff.
EDIT: Now, I know what you're going to say. "But with GOG I can just transfer the installer over and be done with it!" Yes, that's true. But obviously the games you have on Steam aren't on GOG. They probably won't be, at least for a very very long time. So it's a hard truth that you just have to deal with for now, until the day when all major publishers decide that they don't want DRM in their games anymore.
To be clear, I don't think that everyone in this thread is saying that Steam is the best thing ever and is god's gift to the PC master race. But it is the least of a great many evils, and it packs more than enough positives - in most people's eyes - to overcome the small amount of necessary evil. It's fine if you don't like it or want to use it, but expecting all games to go the GOG route is a bit silly in reality.
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You can just straight copy directories. The games might not work right away since they technically still need to be "installed", but it'll at least save downloading time for the bulk of the data. Here's what I would suggest:
Copy the root Steam directory and the folders for each of the games you want to transfer to the gaming tower.
Get an ethernet cable, and hook up your gaming computer directly to your router/hub (hopefully that'll be possible).
Install/run Steam on that tower, and update all the games you transferred. Start all of them so that they get updated and activated or whatever.
Set Steam up to do offline mode all the time.
Unplug it.
OR: cannibalize both towers into a single super-tower for gaming, and if you have enough parts left over, have a work tower for non-internet stuff.
The router is upstairs in the landlord's part of the house so the ethernet cable is not possible.
Thanks for the ideas though.
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Copy the root Steam directory and the folders for each of the games you want to transfer to the gaming tower.
All you need is the Steamapps folder and the Steam executable itself, as Valve themselves will tell you (https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=7710-TDLC-0426) (scroll down to "Moving Your Steam Installation"). Obviously this will still require you to connect to the internet on the gaming computer, at least once, before switching it into offline mode.
(Interestingly enough, that entry is out of date, because you can now choose to store Steam games in a different folder than Steam is installed to, but most people probably still leave the vast majority of their games in a single library.)
To be clear, I don't think that everyone in this thread is saying that Steam is the best thing ever and is god's gift to the PC master race. But it is the least of a great many evils, and it packs more than enough positives - in most people's eyes - to overcome the small amount of necessary evil. It's fine if you don't like it or want to use it, but expecting all games to go the GOG route is a bit silly in reality.
To be perfectly clear myself, I would love it if every game was DRM-free! I, personally, think that DRM is ultimately good only for encouraging people to use pirated copies of games, even for games they already own, simply because cracked executables don't try to interfere with them. However, even if every Steam game were switched to be DRM-free (meaning you could run them without launching Steam first, any time you wanted, even after copying them to other computers), I would still use Steam for them because I actually use those Community features. There are even sometimes mods for non-Steam games to add Steam-like features to them (although come to think of it, the example I was thinking of got greenlit on Steam, but still; people with that mod will have two overlays :P).
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To be clear, I don't think that everyone in this thread is saying that Steam is the best thing ever and is god's gift to the PC master race. But it is the least of a great many evils, and it packs more than enough positives - in most people's eyes - to overcome the small amount of necessary evil. It's fine if you don't like it or want to use it, but expecting all games to go the GOG route is a bit silly in reality.
Well most Humble Indie bundles are independent of DRM, this one is tied to Steam which I didn't particularly care for. It made me reconsider my purchase but I decided to go through with it anyway.
As for, personally I find Steam offensive for a number of reasons.
First off it's a barrier between me and my games. I would expect this sort of thing on a console and for the most part don't mind it there, but having an open system is what defines PC gaming.
Secondly I think it's anti-consumer because it's anti-competitive. Basically it's DRM which ties your system to a specific store. I can't tell you how many people *****ed about Origin for the simple sake that they "didn't want another client on their system". Like how dare Electronic Arts pull their games from Steam to sell them on Origin, nevermind the fact that Valve games aren't available through any other online distributor. Similarly Valve provides "free" games but those games are likewise tied to Steam and the store, which requires non-users to install Steam and probably in the long run spend their dollars there.
Thirdly it eliminates any sense of ownership or ability to resell my games should I so choose. Or even from lending my games to other individuals. Other DRM does this as well, but I would be likewise against that DRM as well.
Fourthly it's just offensive. As Karajoma said it's like being slapped every time you turn it on. Have big daddy watch over and validate the games that you in some cases, purchased a hardcopy of off store shelves. Hardcopies which can be tossed in the bin as soon as you install them because they aren't worth anything else.
And fifth, is Steam impossible to break? Can people crack Steam games? If so, then like all other preceeding DRM it has failed. And like all other DRM it is still punishing the honest players (me) over the guilty. And would the "guilty" even buy the games if they had the money to do so? Are there lost sales? The only way that Steam has possibly succeeded over other DRM is that it's more convenient than pirating, but to me it's still DRM.
So yeah I would rather hope/strive for a world where the GOG model is the norm. Silly or not.
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Yeah, sure, we all can strive and hope for a world where there's no DRM, there's no poverty, the government works pro bono for the benefit of it's people, people are not judged be appearance or gender, there's no crime and everyone goes to heaven. :) But that's not gonna happen, because the world does not work like that. Business doesn't work like that. DRM always existed, even Wing Commander queried you on feelies and trivia before letting you play. Steam is simply an evolution of this, and a fairly good one compared to the likes of Origin or StarForce. It's also a convenient shopping market and a potent social media device. Even if DRM didn't exist, something like Steam would've popped up, because it's just so darn convenient to have a combined launcher, community and store.
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Yeah, sure, we all can strive and hope for a world where there's no DRM, there's no poverty, the government works pro bono for the benefit of it's people, people are not judged be appearance or gender, there's no crime and everyone goes to heaven. :) But that's not gonna happen, because the world does not work like that. Business doesn't work like that. DRM always existed, even Wing Commander queried you on feelies and trivia before letting you play. Steam is simply an evolution of this, and a fairly good one compared to the likes of Origin or StarForce. It's also a convenient shopping market and a potent social media device. Even if DRM didn't exist, something like Steam would've popped up, because it's just so darn convenient to have a combined launcher, community and store.
"Good DRM". Yeah, that's a nice oxymoron.
It's amazing how people's beliefs can be subverted in support of a platform which is fundamentally not in their interests.
And people striving for the things you're mentioning is the very reason why the world is what it is today. Women didn't get to vote not so long ago. Black people were slaves. But because people strived for something better, things improved. Saying Steam is great because it's not Starforce isn't saying anything at all. It's like people saying Planetside is good because it's not Call of Duty.
I'd rather judge a thing based on what it is than what it isn't. And I'd rather want to live in a system where I as a paying consumer am allotted the respect I deserve rather than being held in suspicion and contempt.
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I find it telling that you consider a viewpoint that doesn't align with yours as "subverted".
You want your games to be your, that's great. Meanwhile, a good deal of the world has moved on, and calling something "fundamentally not in [our] interest" because you in particular disagree with the way it's handled does no favors for the discussion at hand. I happen to like Steam and everything that comes with it, but with phrasing and an attitude like that, reasonable debate is nearly impossible - as the circular discussion here indicates. We get it. You don't like Steam's implementation of DRM, and you'd rather have a disc in your own hand. Good for you. There's no need to piss in anyone else's cornflakes.
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"Good DRM". Yeah, that's a nice oxymoron.
It's not an oxymoron. A good DRM is one that works, and does not compromise functionality. Steam is one. If there was no such thing as DRM, nobody would make games, or only indie devs would, counting on peoples' goodwill only. Otherwise, what would prevent you from installing the game, then selling off the disk because you don't need it anymore? Morality? I don't think so. If it'd be as trivially easy to copy the game, everyone would be doing it. The real point of DRM is to make pirating hard enough for the average Joe not to bother with it. Generating CD keys is trivial, but hacking a Steam game while preserving all functionality is impossible (at the very least, you lose Steam features). Remember, on order to make a bargain, both sides need to profit from it. You're not entitled to anything from the game creators, and if they create something, they'll want to know you are paying for their hard work, not stealing it. Most games sold on GOG are old enough for this not to be a concern, but for the new titles, you'll want a safeguard of some sorts.
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If there was no such thing as DRM, nobody would make games, or only indie devs would, counting on peoples' goodwill only.
GOG has a few non DRM fairly big name titles. I find it hard to believe that if there was no DRM all the big names would pull out and leave the entire market to those companies willing to forego DRM.
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I find it telling that you consider a viewpoint that doesn't align with yours as "subverted".
You want your games to be your, that's great. Meanwhile, a good deal of the world has moved on, and calling something "fundamentally not in [our] interest" because you in particular disagree with the way it's handled does no favors for the discussion at hand. I happen to like Steam and everything that comes with it, but with phrasing and an attitude like that, reasonable debate is nearly impossible - as the circular discussion here indicates. We get it. You don't like Steam's implementation of DRM, and you'd rather have a disc in your own hand. Good for you. There's no need to piss in anyone else's cornflakes.
Seriously, even if one does consider any form of DRM as an unabashed negative, there are about five or six major positives to Steam's service that more than balance it out for me. They may not for you personally, and that's fine, but it's certainly not a universal truth.
By the same token though, I agree that most companies wouldn't drop all PC titles if they had to completely forgo DRM.
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Spent the six bucks and got this for myself and a buddy. Totally old school and totally worth it; I've been spoiling myself with D2X-XXL and Rebirth's graphical/gameplay improvements for too long. :V
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Steam is simply an evolution of this, and a fairly good one compared to the likes of Origin or StarForce
I know this is an side tangent, but how is Steam a lot better then origin (or hwo can Origin be considered on the same level of starforce?) Origin works really well for me, better then Steam did and does on the installer subject. For one, games that are DRM free or have a certain DRM method will keep that method whilst on Origin, whilst a lot of games on steam get the Steam DRM on top of their already existing systems.
Seriously, even if one does consider any form of DRM as an unabashed negative, there are about five or six major positives to Steam's service that more than balance it out for me. They may not for you personally, and that's fine, but it's certainly not a universal truth.
But you can have the positives of steam without the drawbacks, such as Europa Universalis IV and such shows. There is not really a good reason to accept that.
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I find it telling that you consider a viewpoint that doesn't align with yours as "subverted".
You want your games to be your, that's great. Meanwhile, a good deal of the world has moved on, and calling something "fundamentally not in [our] interest" because you in particular disagree with the way it's handled does no favors for the discussion at hand. I happen to like Steam and everything that comes with it, but with phrasing and an attitude like that, reasonable debate is nearly impossible - as the circular discussion here indicates. We get it. You don't like Steam's implementation of DRM, and you'd rather have a disc in your own hand. Good for you. There's no need to piss in anyone else's cornflakes.
He's going to be in for a shocker when he realizes that all physical media is going to die in the coming years.
lol about Steam being anti-competitive. Lord Gaben, bless his soul, has long promoted free market competition. He's even going to allow Origin games on the Steambox. Valve even provides you with the CD-keys for your games that you can activate on Origin and other services.
Also, way to defend EA, when they're generally considered to be the worst company in the United States. The reason people were pissed off at EA, is because they put their games on Steam and then tried taking them off (Crysis 2). Valve and the customers fought back and made them re-add their games. If EA had the customer's best interest in heart, they would allow people to get their games on both Steam and Origin, then letting people decide for themselves which one they want more.
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You may want to read this (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/05/30/crysis-2-is-back-on-steam-but-eas-not-for-now/). Also, Nakura, considering your statements, I can't really tell whether you are trolling or whether you are actually being serious. Your statements are rather... sensationalist.
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The problem with Crysis 2 were the DLCs, which were, IIRC, only available through Crysis 2-in game store, or something like that. Anyway, it was Valve who took it down, due to TOS violation. With Maximum Edition out, those concerns have been addressed (as everything is bundled with the game now), and it was promptly released on Steam.
If there was no such thing as DRM, nobody would make games, or only indie devs would, counting on peoples' goodwill only.
GOG has a few non DRM fairly big name titles. I find it hard to believe that if there was no DRM all the big names would pull out and leave the entire market to those companies willing to forego DRM.
Yeah, but they are in minority. If you're referring to The Witcher, it's an interesting case of an indie game developed for a very specific fanbase (Polish Witcher fans) making a huge success internationally. While it's not a very narrow fanbase, it's still small and devoted enough (Witcher is big in Poland among fantasy fans) that you could reasonably expect loses from piracy to be minimal, even in a country like that (our post-communist mentality makes piracy, as well as theft in general, distressingly commonplace. I myself believed it to be no big deal until I started spending time here). Other games are, I suppose, driven there by The Witcher's success.
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An important note to make here is that GoG is owned by/has ties to CD project Red, similarely to how Gamersgate is owned by/has ties to Paradox entertainment.
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Yeah, that probably played a part in why it's explicitly a DRM-free site. Generally, restrictive DRM is unpopular in Poland. Maybe because people sympathize with pirates more. :) The unfortunate mentality, coupled with the fact that for long, you had to pirate to get anything decent (we even bought pirated disks. Can you imagine living in a country like that? For quite a long time, games in stores were few and usually absurdly priced) probably made most Polish gamers allergic to DRM. And CD Project Red is clearly a studio made by old-time gamers and nerds. Probably why The Witcher turned out so great and true to the novels.
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Oh, I was just going to say "It's a good way to advertise for their store and make sure that the money goes straight to them instead of via the middleman", but your explenation works too :).
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That's a good explanation of why The Witcher was released on GOG (and a rather obvious one, in fact). I was more concerned with nature of GOG as an explicitly DRM free site, rather than a site that just happens not to carry anything new enough to have DRM. :) The point is, CD Project Red does not act as a big corporation would, and probably weren't even focused on making profits with the first Witcher.
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He's going to be in for a shocker when he realizes that all physical media is going to die in the coming years.
Physical media is never going to die, both because non-physical media is a mental construct and because said media is inherently useful.
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why would either of those things keep physical media alive
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Physical media is never going to die because people like the Society for Creative Anachronism exist.
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He's going to be in for a shocker when he realizes that all physical media is going to die in the coming years.
Physical media is never going to die, both because non-physical media is a mental construct and because said media is inherently useful.
(http://24.media.tumblr.com/00a43c6101a92d57f1c3ab149d9d6c98/tumblr_mzt190MC851qz7cvoo1_1280.png)
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Of course kiddo, surely you know about 3D printers. :P
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You can make my three and a half inch floppy into a hard disk
Let me insert it into your slot so I can be sure to pull it up later on your monitor to 3D print its contents
I had to
As for physical media dying, so long as there's a market for distribution of physical copies there won't be a death anywhere in sight.
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I know this is an side tangent, but how is Steam a lot better then origin (or hwo can Origin be considered on the same level of starforce?)
In case you missed it upthread, Origin has been documented before as actively monitoring your computer for warez copies of Origin products and/or cracking tools that might be used to remove Origin from the equation. The fact it's not as buggy about this as Starforce and that it doesn't apparently do this all the time is to its credit, but it's still pretty intrusive and dumb in comparison to anything Steam does, and it's still Starforce's modus operandi.
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It was recently demonstrated that VAC actively scans your DNS cache to monitor what domains you've visited, so I'm not sure Valve is that much better when it comes to lines drawn in the sand for user privacy.
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It was not, however, conclusively proven that identifying information derived from those scans was transmitted.
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I know this is an side tangent, but how is Steam a lot better then origin (or hwo can Origin be considered on the same level of starforce?)
In case you missed it upthread, Origin has been documented before as actively monitoring your computer for warez copies of Origin products and/or cracking tools that might be used to remove Origin from the equation. The fact it's not as buggy about this as Starforce and that it doesn't apparently do this all the time is to its credit, but it's still pretty intrusive and dumb in comparison to anything Steam does, and it's still Starforce's modus operandi.
CT magazine later tested if origin did, and it turned out it did not. All that Origin does is scan for licenses needed to make HTTPS connections, which are found in an particular part of the PC. Every program that uses HTTPS connections is required to do this scan by windows, so your browser does it as well.
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He's going to be in for a shocker when he realizes that all physical media is going to die in the coming years.
Physical media is never going to die, both because non-physical media is a mental construct and because said media is inherently useful.
I enjoy CDs and VHS tapes as much as the next guy, but they're a dying medium. We've already seen physical PC games die out almost entirely. Even non-Steam games don't even really use the CD anymore, as they either activate on Origin or on Blizzard's Battle.net. Physical CDs and DVDs are also dying out, with things like iTunes, MP3 players, Netflix, etc.
Even console games are going the digital distribution route. Microsoft and Sony are already planning to completely do away with physical media altogether. This is the 21st century and times are changing, for better or worse (I'd say better). The days of rewinding your VHS tape are quickly coming to an end, my friend.
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I enjoy CDs and VHS tapes as much as the next guy, but they're a dying medium. We've already seen physical PC games die out almost entirely. Even non-Steam games don't even really use the CD anymore, as they either activate on Origin or on Blizzard's Battle.net. Physical CDs and DVDs are also dying out, with things like iTunes, MP3 players, Netflix, etc.
Even console games are going the digital distribution route. Microsoft and Sony are already planning to completely do away with physical media altogether. This is the 21st century and times are changing, for better or worse (I'd say better). The days of rewinding your VHS tape are quickly coming to an end, my friend.
This only holds true if the network infrastructure can grow with demand. As long as there are rural areas without reliable broadband access, there will be a market for physical media. Right now, the net cannot compete in terms of reliability with DVDs or Blurays when it comes to delivering big content when the customer wants it.
Also note that MP3s and digital downloads require a greater deal of technological ability than CDs, DVDs or Blurays, as those are very simple technologies to explain.
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Don't forget car radios. As long as there are radios with CD drives, the audio CDs aren't going anywhere. Sure, you could play music from the USB stick, but a CD seems much more convenient in this case. Also, DVDs/Bluerays are cheaper and faster to read than the equivalent USB memory sticks, meaning that for carrying a movie around with you, they're generally better. Physical storage/transfer devices aren't going anywhere anytime soon, because if you want to, say, bring a movie to a party at friend's house, it's easier to just bring the DVD instead of messing around with Netflix. Very large quantities of data (on order of terabytes) are also much quicker to move by physical means than through the network. Not to mention physical transfer is more secure. It's much harder to steal an USB stick from a careful courier than it is to intercept a data transmission. While physical media are being relegated to more niche applications lately, they certainly aren't going anywhere.
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I know I'm buying DVDs/Blu-Rays until the bitter end. My brother's been using a friend's Netflix account to watch a show, and even though we have a great ISP, the damn thing buffers incessantly.
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Something's ****ed with your ISP. They may be throttling Netflix on purpose.
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Physical media is never going to die, both because non-physical media is a mental construct and because said media is inherently useful.
I enjoy CDs and VHS tapes as much as the next guy, but they're a dying medium. We've already seen physical PC games die out almost entirely. Even non-Steam games don't even really use the CD anymore, as they either activate on Origin or on Blizzard's Battle.net. Physical CDs and DVDs are also dying out, with things like iTunes, MP3 players, Netflix, etc.
Even console games are going the digital distribution route. Microsoft and Sony are already planning to completely do away with physical media altogether. This is the 21st century and times are changing, for better or worse (I'd say better). The days of rewinding your VHS tape are quickly coming to an end, my friend.
• There are a number of PC games that still use DVDs for the initial version. I have one from the tail-end of 2011 sitting on my bookshelf right now, and I'm not even going to bother looking for newer titles because it's a certainty that they exist.
• Microsoft and Sony are about to learn a hard lesson about bandwidth caps, which are becoming a bit of a heated issue at the moment. Their codecs for streaming game footage, for instance, are horrible, and their customers are going to (if they aren't already) be pissed when they start getting an extra fifty dollars tacked on to their monthly bill. As this becomes more and more of a problem, I have no doubt that they'll start requiring developers to include a base percentage of the content on-disc.
This only holds true if the network infrastructure can grow with demand. As long as there are rural areas without reliable broadband access, there will be a market for physical media. Right now, the net cannot compete in terms of reliability with DVDs or Blurays when it comes to delivering big content when the customer wants it.
• This.
• Yes, 'physical media' is being used less and less as a method of transfer, but they're never going to "die in the coming years." As I said before, they are too inherently useful to ever die out. Hell, storage tape is still used.
Seriously? No one is going to say anything about the 'mental construct' bit? I'm disappointed in all of you.
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It was not, however, conclusively proven that identifying information derived from those scans was transmitted.
Let me ask though, what happens to your Steam account and all your games if VAC does decide you're cheating? For that matter, what if you get banned for any other reason?
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It was not, however, conclusively proven that identifying information derived from those scans was transmitted.
Let me ask though, what happens to your Steam account and all your games if VAC does decide you're cheating?
Absolutely nothing; all VAC does is say you can no longer join multiplayer servers running VAC. There are usually at least as many non-VAC servers as there are VAC servers in a given, popular game.
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It was not, however, conclusively proven that identifying information derived from those scans was transmitted.
As though that makes it acceptable! NGTM didn't mention any proof that Origin was doing anything with their monitoring data, so why is it a prerequisite for condemning Valve? The onus of proof here is clearly on the company gathering your data to show that they're not abusing it.
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They already explained what was happening there, it was something that seemed pretty well justified.
http://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/1y70ej/valve_vac_and_trust/
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OK, I've never expected that one. I guess I'm gonna give it to Valve, I would've never thought that it's even possible. Just what kind of person pays to cheat at the game? It's one thing to use simple hacks to spoil peoples' fun, but paying for it? It's a bloody game, and it's not like it's gonna be usable in a serious tournament, anyway (they probably have more strict anti-cheats than VAC).
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Something's ****ed with your ISP. They may be throttling Netflix on purpose.
Could be, or the Blu-ray player he was using was choking on it. Either way, unlike Valve, I don't trust major media publishers as far as I can throw them, so I'm not willing to put any stock in paying for access to old TV shows that can be removed without notice.
OK, I've never expected that one. I guess I'm gonna give it to Valve, I would've never thought that it's even possible. Just what kind of person pays to cheat at the game? It's one thing to use simple hacks to spoil peoples' fun, but paying for it? It's a bloody game, and it's not like it's gonna be usable in a serious tournament, anyway (they probably have more strict anti-cheats than VAC).
Shockingly enough, many people are idiots.
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Proud Supporter of:
(http://www.ohgizmo.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/10/dvdrewinder.jpg)
Physical will never die! It will just become a collector's item.
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Well, you can see this with floppies already. My father still has some of those around, and even a drive. And of course, vinyl will outlive it all, because it's just plain better for recording music than any digital disk created to date. :)
Shockingly enough, many people are idiots.
Oh, I know that. But there's you regular, run on the mill idiocy, and idiocy that makes you bang your head against the table. People who pay for cheats are not only head-bangingly idiotic, but also jerks for ruining other peoples' fun. And here's the scary thought: there's at least 500 of them, according to VAC statistics. Probably more...
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More on-topic, Descent II has now been added...though they're charging $10 with no current discount. That same price will get you both games on GOG.
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Great. At this rate, we might soon get Descent 3+Mercenaries. Probably also at a greater price than on GOG, but what really matters is interest it might spark in modding D3.
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Lord knows D3 could use it. I don't know that there's even anyone left in the Descent community still making new D3 levels. It probably didn't help that D3Edit took something of a cumbersome approach to level-building, from what I understand.
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They already explained what was happening there, it was something that seemed pretty well justified.
http://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/1y70ej/valve_vac_and_trust/
I find it amusing how quickly everyone becomes "If you're not doing anything wrong, you don't have anything to worry about" as soon as it's Valve doing it. If it were EA everyone would be screaming blue murder about it.
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They already explained what was happening there, it was something that seemed pretty well justified.
http://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/1y70ej/valve_vac_and_trust/
I find it amusing how quickly everyone becomes "If you're not doing anything wrong, you don't have anything to worry about" as soon as it's Valve doing it. If it were EA everyone would be screaming blue murder about it.
There's a little thing called a "track record" that supplies something called "context" so that there's a very good reason people would be screaming if EA did it.
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I find that amusing too. Especially given that EA have occasionally been ahead of Valve in certain customer rights issues (Origin allowed banned users access to their games before Steam did).
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Does anyone know anything about this steamdb.info site? They seem to have a lot of FS related records:
http://steamdb.info/app/41610/ - FS1
http://steamdb.info/app/41620/ - FS2
and perhaps most interesting:
http://steamdb.info/sub/1976/#section_apps - What appears to be an Interplay package of a bunch of games, including all the descents and both FS1 & 2. Now, I don't know how reliable any of this might be, but it sure looks promising for a near term FS steam release!
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I think those entries have been in there for some time now (I remember reading about them sometime last year), but so far, nothing concrete has happened in that regard.
Interplay not being forthcoming with their plans certainly doesn't help either....
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Some games are added to the database before they are added to the store. SteamDB lists that.
It's properly too early to start dancing, but you can start practicing :P.
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I require no practice. I am a full time dance machine.
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I find that amusing too. Especially given that EA have occasionally been ahead of Valve in certain customer rights issues (Origin allowed banned users access to their games before Steam did).
Here's the thing. "Occasionally". In many other cases, though, Valve was clearly ahead. Also, what we're talking about is an anti-cheat measure, not a DRM. Anti-cheats are very important to the multiplayer experience. I've seen this on ArmA forums. ArmA III has many great things about it, but it's anti-cheat system is not one of them (it requires quite a bit of admin-side fiddling, which of course nobody does on public servers). As a result, there's constant complaining about cheaters on public servers, and the general consensus is that you need to join a clan if you want to play the game like it's supposed to be played. I suppose that if EA did something like that to combat cheaters, I'd give them a pass on that one, too, but Origin seems more focused on DRM, not on anti-cheat.
Of course, it'd be best if we didn't need such strict anti-cheats at all, but since people are dumb enough to actually pay for hard to detect, problematic cheats, I'm afraid they're to blame for that particular feature.
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I require no practice. I am a full time dance machine.
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I suppose that if EA did something like that to combat cheaters, I'd give them a pass on that one, too,
Would you though? Would you actually have let it pass if you'd heard of EA doing it 2 weeks ago? Or are you only saying that because Steam has given you an example?
Even if you would have, I suspect most people wouldn't. Which brings me back to my point that I find it amusing.
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Would you though?
The vast majority of players have put up with far less well-directed and less-capable efforts to control botting and other forms of cheating. Don't sound so surprised they'll accept a degree of invasiveness if it gets results.
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Yeah. If this is necessary to enjoy a multiplayer game, then be it. The only example Valve gave me is of how ridiculous lengths cheaters can go to, all to ruin other peoples' fun. Unlike copyright protection, ridding the game of those pest is a worthy case, because it actually improves the experience a lot. Anti-cheats are there for the benefit of the players, not the company (well, it does benefit the company, but in the same way making a good game does), and therefore can be allowed more leeway.
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I suppose that if EA did something like that to combat cheaters, I'd give them a pass on that one, too,
Would you though? Would you actually have let it pass if you'd heard of EA doing it 2 weeks ago? Or are you only saying that because Steam has given you an example?
Even if you would have, I suspect most people wouldn't. Which brings me back to my point that I find it amusing.
Reason is not allowed on the EA hate bandwagon. Go stand in the corner and think about what you've done.
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There is nothing unreasonable about hating EA :p
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This is Hard Light, not the Wing Commander CIC :P.
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I'm interested in Titanfall but the price puts me off. 59.9€! But at least I could return the game within 24 hours if I don't like it, so there's that.
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I enjoy CDs and VHS tapes as much as the next guy, but they're a dying medium. We've already seen physical PC games die out almost entirely. Even non-Steam games don't even really use the CD anymore, as they either activate on Origin or on Blizzard's Battle.net. Physical CDs and DVDs are also dying out, with things like iTunes, MP3 players, Netflix, etc.
Even console games are going the digital distribution route. Microsoft and Sony are already planning to completely do away with physical media altogether. This is the 21st century and times are changing, for better or worse (I'd say better). The days of rewinding your VHS tape are quickly coming to an end, my friend.
This only holds true if the network infrastructure can grow with demand. As long as there are rural areas without reliable broadband access, there will be a market for physical media. Right now, the net cannot compete in terms of reliability with DVDs or Blurays when it comes to delivering big content when the customer wants it.
Also note that MP3s and digital downloads require a greater deal of technological ability than CDs, DVDs or Blurays, as those are very simple technologies to explain.
http://gizmodo.com/how-comcast-twc-will-end-your-all-you-can-internet-buff-1523899968
http://gizmodo.com/why-the-comcast-time-warner-cable-merger-is-even-worse-1522096469
300GB caps. They aren't enforcing it now, but after swallowing TWC, they probably will (they are currently 'testing' it in certain markets). I hope Google Fiber takes off and scares the bejeebers out of them and their nefarious merger is blocked. :ick:
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I find it telling that you consider a viewpoint that doesn't align with yours as "subverted".
I don't consider opposing viewpoints subverted. What I consider subverted is that when consumers applaud a platform which has fundamentally robbed them of their rights.
Specifically, the rights to sell or trade their purchase as they would any other piece of traditional media. And the argument that digital games fall outside of traditional media is irrelevant because store-bought games that require steam are likewise not trade-able or resell-able.
What's telling is when someone supports Steam but not Origin when both are as objectively bad as the other. Or did you forget the fact you had to sign away more rights as a consumer and as a citizen of the free world when you contractually agreed to not join any class action lawsuits against Valve?
No rights to resell or trade the products you've purchased?
Signing away your legal rights?
What's next?
You want your games to be your, that's great. Meanwhile, a good deal of the world has moved on, and calling something "fundamentally not in [our] interest" because you in particular disagree with the way it's handled does no favors for the discussion at hand. I happen to like Steam and everything that comes with it, but with phrasing and an attitude like that, reasonable debate is nearly impossible - as the circular discussion here indicates. We get it. You don't like Steam's implementation of DRM, and you'd rather have a disc in your own hand. Good for you. There's no need to piss in anyone else's cornflakes.
Actual debate is impossible when neither side is interested in changing their opinion. But I'm not entering a debate, I'm expressing and defending an opinion. You and many individuals here aren't debating either because you likewise have probably formed an opinion and have no intention of changing it. So I'm afraid there is no high ground to stand upon dude.
In order for a service like Steam to be something I'd get behind, it would need to be something like Netflix. Flat, low-cost subscription for full catalog access. Perhaps with on-demand style rates for new releases.
No illusion of actually buying media. Until such time that it changes to such a model it's just a service in the guise of a store, selling rentals at premium prices.
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In order for a service like Valve to be something I'd get behind,
"Valve" is the company; the content distribution platform is called "Steam".
it would need to be something like Netflix. Flat, low-cost subscription for full catalog access. Perhaps with on-demand style rates for new releases.
No illusion of actually buying media. Until such time that it changes to such a model it's just a service in the guise of a store, selling rentals at premium prices.
I've never seen a rental with indefinite duration before...
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In order for a service like Valve to be something I'd get behind,
"Valve" is the company; the content distribution platform is called "Steam".
it would need to be something like Netflix. Flat, low-cost subscription for full catalog access. Perhaps with on-demand style rates for new releases.
No illusion of actually buying media. Until such time that it changes to such a model it's just a service in the guise of a store, selling rentals at premium prices.
I've never seen a rental with indefinite duration before...
Yes and I've never "OWNED" a product that I couldn't re-sell or give away once I'd used it.
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Yes and I've never "OWNED" a product that I couldn't re-sell or give away once I'd used it.
Really? You re-sell food after you've used it? :O
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Yes and I've never "OWNED" a product that I couldn't re-sell or give away once I'd used it.
Really? You re-sell food after you've used it? :O
Welcome to my ignore list.
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Yes and I've never "OWNED" a product that I couldn't re-sell or give away once I'd used it.
Really? You re-sell food after you've used it? :O
Welcome to my ignore list.
Why? Hilarious as the comment was, he has a point - not all goods can be re-used. Agree with their use or not, virtually all software is subject to EULAs that expressly prohibit re-sale or gifting of used software. While there may not have been any technical barriers to resale or gifting of pre-DRM titles, there were [widely ignored] legal barriers.
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The analogy with food wasn't chosen at random; you can purchase, trade, and sell games on Steam as much as you want... but as soon as you consume the product (activate it on your account), it is no longer a tradeable commodity.
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Yes and I've never "OWNED" a product that I couldn't re-sell or give away once I'd used it.
Really? You re-sell food after you've used it? :O
Welcome to my ignore list.
So basically, your response to his point is "lalalalalala I can't hear you!" Truly the pinnacle of mature and reasoned argument.
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Why? Hilarious as the comment was, he has a point - not all goods can be re-used.
Because flippant comments which are wantonly incompetent are simply disrespectful in this discussion. As a result he's earned the honour of not worth listening to.
Wanton incompetence coming from understanding what I'm saying, and yet choosing to ignore that understanding in the reply.
So basically, your response to his point is "lalalalalala I can't hear you!" Truly the pinnacle of mature and reasoned argument.
You can keep him company.
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What the ... knock it off with the barbs here folks. Akalabeth, take a break and a breather or you can be given one.
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Because flippant comments which are wantonly incompetent are simply disrespectful in this discussion.
I have bad news.
He had a level of reasoning beyond your own "THIS MAKES ME ANGRY", making your commentary appear more applicable to yourself than him.
The analogy with food wasn't chosen at random; you can purchase, trade, and sell games on Steam as much as you want... but as soon as you consume the product (activate it on your account), it is no longer a tradeable commodity.
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@Zacam - Thanks for the suggestion, it was an enjoyable break.
@All Else - I compare Steam games to video game rentals and am criticized because Rentals aren't "indefinite" therefore the comparison is invalid.
A second later you're comparing Steam games to a carton of milk.
I believe that qualifies as arguing in bad faith but I may be mistaken. Either way it's a double standard.
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Nope. It's simply a more accurate comparison. :) Rentals are, pretty much by definition, finite. Steam doesn't really follow this model. On the other hand, both food and Steam keys are consumables. You can trade this stuff, or consume it yourself, making it unavailable for trading. Now, the question is, is that acceptable for games to be treated as consumables, but you'll notice that it isn't new - Steam is simply enforcing EULAs which were there for years, mostly ignored. Let's put it that way. For years, you were going to school through a private property, as a shortcut. Now, are you going to complain when someone puts up a fence around the property? You never had the right to go through there, and you have no right to complain that someone actually started enforcing the rules. Same with games. Check out any old game (besides FS2, which had a rather unique EULA) and see that there probably is an entry that would, legally, prevent you from selling off this game after you're done with it. You can do it illegally, but you certainly have no right to do this.
Now, you definitely can complain about practices by the game manufacturers who put such points in EULAs, but you'd have to recognize it's not a problem with Steam, but with whoever writes EULAs. Take the complaints where they belong. While Steam is set up to enforce that particular point, I imagine if at some point it became illegal to prevent re-sale of games that way, it could be changed accordingly (it's constantly updated, anyway). Still, I doubt Valve, or any other publisher for that matter, would remove those points from EULA without a government decree.
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Nope. It's simply a more accurate comparison. :) Rentals are, pretty much by definition, finite. Steam doesn't really follow this model. On the other hand, both food and Steam keys are consumables.
So you're trying to argue that perishable goods aren't finite?
Riiiiight.
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So you're trying to argue that perishable goods aren't finite?
Riiiiight.
Wat
Anyone actually get Descent on Steam here yet?
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Nope. It's simply a more accurate comparison. :) Rentals are, pretty much by definition, finite. Steam doesn't really follow this model. On the other hand, both food and Steam keys are consumables.
So you're trying to argue that perishable goods aren't finite?
Riiiiight.
I'm going to step in and say, right now, that everyone needs to drop this particular thread of discussion before it results in more warnings.
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And now to provoke even MORE heinous discussion!
http://store.steampowered.com/news/12461/
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See previous page :) :
More on-topic, Descent II has now been added...though they're charging $10 with no current discount. That same price will get you both games on GOG.
Old news is old.
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So basically, your response to his point is "lalalalalala I can't hear you!" Truly the pinnacle of mature and reasoned argument.
You can keep him company.
Oh no, I'm terribly hurt. Whatever shall I do?
Zacam, Scotty: I just couldn't leave it at that. I'm sorry.
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Anyone actually get Descent on Steam here yet?
Well, since it's just the same old DOS version I now have, like, five different copies of...
I put it on my wishlist, does that count? ;)
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See previous page :) :
More on-topic, Descent II has now been added...though they're charging $10 with no current discount. That same price will get you both games on GOG.
Old news is old.
Yes, well, I missed it in all the discussion about non-Descent things. :P
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Anyone actually get Descent on Steam here yet?
*waves*
Hoping Descent 3 makes it onto Steam as well -- it was just awesome in multiplayer. =)
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So, I have both Descent's on Steam. I'm a little sad that neither of them come with any sort of extended mission compilations like the last released boxed sets did.
That being said, setting them up is just about the same as setting up from Retail Media, including modding them (so long as you're not still using some windows "Protected" location directory).
The addition of the entire Classic Quake series as well as Heretic+Hexen makes me happy (though inclusion of Heretic 2 would have been nice).
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I still have my old Descent installs from the mid 90s, at least in some form. I kept migrating them to different machines over the years, and have all my saved games and demos from over the years. I'm trying to get D2X-XL to use the Yamaha SYXG50 midi driver, which has now been ported to Windows 7/8 and sounds far better than the default Windows synth. This needs a few changes to the midi interface in sdl_mixer.dll due to the way Windows handles midi, but I think they should be easy to do from the source.
I hate Steam itself. It's in your face all the time with its frequent auto-updates and ads, and I hate how it doesn't let you choose install folders and blocks you from playing older versions of games when updates are found (which can break mods). However, it's true that its userbase is much larger than GOG. More exposure to these games is always a good thing.
Lord knows D3 could use it. I don't know that there's even anyone left in the Descent community still making new D3 levels. It probably didn't help that D3Edit took something of a cumbersome approach to level-building, from what I understand.
Especially singleplayer levels. D3 never seemed to have gotten much interest there. There were only a handful of good levels ever made, and only one or two campaigns. In contrast, D2 has tons of great levels and mission sets, many of which are superior to the original game.
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I hate Steam itself. It's in your face all the time with its frequent auto-updates and ads,
A fair point. It can be a tad obnoxious especially when they do several updates in 1 day and then an update a day for 4 days in a row. The ads, I can live with to SOME extent, because it's either about New Games, or sales or events regarding a particular Franchise or Special. So at least it beats out on breast enhancement/penis enlargement pills or free/discount handbags. But for the most part? It runs minimized to my task tray and I don't even see it half the time I'm on my system. In fact, I sometimes forget whether or not I even have it running at times and accidentally try to "open" it again, which fortunately just gently chuckles and brings up the already running instance.
and I hate how it doesn't let you choose install folders
Um, what? You can define any install location for Steam Itself and in addition to that, you can add any drive/destination you want as a "Library" to install to. Granted, this really is nowhere NEAR as flexible as manually selecting each and every install path for every single item, but you can still direct an exact and explicit baseline (the exception to that being Source SDK based stuff which installs dependent on where Steam itself is installed to).
and blocks you from playing older versions of games when updates are found (which can break mods).
What again? I've never had a pending update declare or cause for a game to become unplayable on me unless/until I updated. And with ONE games exception (which had NOTHING to do with Steam and everything to do with the designing Studio) I've never had a game update break any saves or progress. Further more, any mods that do happen to break can be broken by any updating, regardless of whether or not it comes to you via Steam, you control when and how an update takes place (and on a per-game basis if you want or via Global).
(Please note, everything BELOW this line here is not related as a direct reply to the quoted post, user, or any specific individual or post related in this thread and is probably more correct being in a general "Steam Discussions" thread)
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I get that there are a lot of people that don't like Steam. I don't understand WHY they don't and a lot of times (not to put too fine a point on it) a lot of the reasons I can't logically accommodate as being "reasonable" reasons to hate the platform, product or the company behind it.
It will never be a perfect platform. It's probably not even the best platform that we have possible. But it is a platform that does do what its goal is: Sell and deliver to you the products that you buy for you to use. I certainly will never herald Steam as the "Golden Calf" or have fantasies about being able to bear its children or any other fanatically supportive paradigms there are that seem to be all the rave these days, but I do find it a much more agreeable platform with a much more agreeable (to me) company behind it that I can stand supporting it.
As for the "Magic Bullet" discussion ender of "But you can't sell what you've bought!" So? Who says I want to? I don't suffer "Buyers Remorse" and immediately demand a refund. I suck it up, accept that I responsibly spent my money and then I spread the word so that others don't have to and forget that it even exists. If I haven't played it in ages and currently can't think of a time when I will? I still won't sell it. Because then I might want to, or it may no longer be an available option to purchase if some nifty little "doesn't exist yet" happens to take place that finally draws my interest in it.
And if I want to draw somebody else into it, how does it invest me to give my only copy of it to them when I can just get them one and we both get to win?
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I think my biggest issue with Steam is this. What happens if one day they sell it to EA or the like?
I know a lot of people say "Well that's not going to happen", and I'll agree it's not looking likely now. But things change. Even companies that seem nice can grow more evil (Google is a great example of this). So I equate buying things on Steam to putting eggs in one basket. The more I have in that basket, the more disastrous the consequences of something going bad. If I only buy a few games then it is annoying if something happens to Steam, but that annoyance grows proportionally with the value I sink into my Steam games collection.
With GOG, this isn't a consideration. Everything I download I can back up. IF something horrible were to happen to GOG, I'd still have 95% of the value I sunk into my collection (I give being able to reinstall from somewhere other than my backups a 5% value).
And this is where Akelabeth makes a good point, that objection would vanish if Steam were a Netflixesque service that simply gave me access to their entire catalogue. If they were to go down or turn evil, I could just cancel my service having lost nothing. But otherwise, given that I don't play many games which are only available on Steam, I don't feel the rewards are worth the (admittedly small) risk.
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I think my biggest issue with Steam is this. What happens if one day they sell it to EA or the like?
Considering Origin, I'd be sorry about the loss of Steam's ridiculous sales, but I don't think I'd care much otherwise.
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I think you've missed my point. There's all kinds of things a company who took them over could do which you'd hate. Suppose they decided they didn't need to spend as much on servers for instance. So what if servers are unavailable some of the time?
They didn't worry much about that before Sim City came out after all. :p
I only said EA cause that's who everyone seems to hate the most. I'd be more worried if they sold it to someone who knew **** all about the games industry.
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Um, what? You can define any install location for Steam Itself and in addition to that, you can add any drive/destination you want as a "Library" to install to. Granted, this really is nowhere NEAR as flexible as manually selecting each and every install path for every single item, but you can still direct an exact and explicit baseline (the exception to that being Source SDK based stuff which installs dependent on where Steam itself is installed to).
I want to choose the actual folders for games, the way I would with any regular program, not a "Steam library." I organize my non-Steam games by various categories and like to have easy access to their folders for setting up mods.
What again? I've never had a pending update declare or cause for a game to become unplayable on me unless/until I updated. And with ONE games exception (which had NOTHING to do with Steam and everything to do with the designing Studio) I've never had a game update break any saves or progress. Further more, any mods that do happen to break can be broken by any updating, regardless of whether or not it comes to you via Steam, you control when and how an update takes place (and on a per-game basis if you want or via Global).
Just had this happen with several games yesterday (Dishonored, Serious Sam HD and a few others), after I hadn't loaded up Steam in a few months. I have auto updates disabled for all games. However, if Steam detects that an update is available, the game will say "update required" and not let you play until you update manually, even if you go into the offline mode. There are plenty of posts on the Steam forum about this.
Mods are the most common thing that updates mess up. For Dishonored, the update reverted the no-intro edits I had made, which was at least easy to fix, but I've had other cases where a patch rendered a modded game unplayable. At a minimum, I want to see what the patch does before getting it, but Steam's "release notes" for patches are worthless and just take you to a page with more ads.
I know a lot of people say "Well that's not going to happen", and I'll agree it's not looking likely now. But things change. Even companies that seem nice can grow more evil (Google is a great example of this). So I equate buying things on Steam to putting eggs in one basket. The more I have in that basket, the more disastrous the consequences of something going bad. If I only buy a few games then it is annoying if something happens to Steam, but that annoyance grows proportionally with the value I sink into my Steam games collection.
In general, I see Steam's monopoly status on game distribution as a bad thing, even if the software itself was good (which it isn't). Origin is not any different from Steam, but it does at least provide Steam competition.
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I think my biggest issue with Steam is this. What happens if one day they sell it to EA or the like?
What happens if your physical game collection is destroyed or rendered useless by fire, water damage, acidic or alkaline substance, tree falling or hurricane coming in to say hello. There are plenty of options to choose from what may or may not happen to your physical stuff. If something like that happens, I do not believe your physical game collection would be on top of your worries but it would be gone nonetheless.
I think you've missed my point. There's all kinds of things a company who took them over could do which you'd hate. Suppose they decided they didn't need to spend as much on servers for instance. So what if servers are unavailable some of the time?
At least you still have access to your games, unlike what would be the case with your physical copies in scenarios above...
Point being, there is no such a thing as complete certainty. Five years from now Steam may be only a memory, but so may be your house.
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That's a pretty weak argument given I've already expressed my preference for GOG over Steam. Or are you asking what if my house is destroyed and GOG turn evil at the same time?
I buy games on GOG in preference to physical media for similar reasons to the ones you mention (although I'm more worried about destruction of my physical media by scratching a CD, etc). Bear in mind that Tencent offer me 10 TB of cloud storage for free. If GOG went down I could back up my entire games collection and still have space. Hell, now that I think of it, I might upload all my games there anyway.
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Well excuse me for not keeping track of 9 full pages of people preferences and arguments. :p
Still, preference or not, hard to get a game off from GOG it does not have.
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All the more reason for supporting them when it comes to the games they do have then so that they have more power to get other games, surely. :D
Which kind of brings me back to my original point that I still feel we should support GOG over Steam when suggesting where to get Freespace 2. Or at the very least avoid only mentioning Steam.
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Anyone actually get Descent on Steam here yet?
Waiting for the glorious 75% off sale.
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What again? I've never had a pending update declare or cause for a game to become unplayable on me unless/until I updated. And with ONE games exception (which had NOTHING to do with Steam and everything to do with the designing Studio) I've never had a game update break any saves or progress. Further more, any mods that do happen to break can be broken by any updating, regardless of whether or not it comes to you via Steam, you control when and how an update takes place (and on a per-game basis if you want or via Global).
Do note that, for the longest of times, a new update for your game also resetted the per-game basis options you would set in the steam client. This included the option not to update a game. This has stayed broken for several years (Same with the offline mode, which had a tendency to not work whenever you started steam after you had been unexpectedly disconnected from the internet), and only has been fixed in... 2013 or so.
As a result, many people have simply not used these features anymore and missed the fact that they were fixed.
Anyone actually get Descent on Steam here yet?
Waiting for the glorious 75% off sale.
:|.
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I'm trying to get D2X-XL to use the Yamaha SYXG50 midi driver, which has now been ported to Windows 7/8
ZOMGWTFBBQ :eek2:
(http://folkloregonian.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/wantburgers.jpg)
(For those who have never experienced the Yamaha SXGY50 MIDI synth, it is the best MIDI synthesizer I have heard on a computer bar none. I kept the old install from one of my Dad's computers, but sadly, It was only compatible with '98 and XP, this changes things, yessss, Preciousssss....
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Here's a scenario.
What happens when Steam shuts down?
They're going to give you the ability to still download your games right?
What if they don't? Are you going to sue them? You can't, not as a group, because you all agreed in contract to not join class action law suits against Valve.
Nintendo just shut down the multiplayer servers for the Wii.
Microsoft a few years ago shut down the Xbox multiplayer servers.
In these cases people still can play their games in single player, but point is these online services come to an end, one way or another. Maybe Valve and Steam will stick around for the next 200 years, maybe they won't. But if Steam goes the way of the dodo, there's no guarantee they're going to give you the ability to still play the games you paid money for, and if they don't there's nothing you can do about it.
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ZOMGWTFBBQ :eek2:
(For those who have never experienced the Yamaha SXGY50 MIDI synth, it is the best MIDI synthesizer I have heard on a computer bar none. I kept the old install from one of my Dad's computers, but sadly, It was only compatible with '98 and XP, this changes things, yessss, Preciousssss....
Ah, you've seen the godliness that is SYXG50. :D I remained on XP for ages just for this, and only switched to 8 once I found ways to get it working there. See the details here (http://www.vgmusic.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=14162). This driver can load any VSTI instrument set into the Windows midi mapper, and there were obscure, Japan-only VSTI versions of the SYXG50 and 100 that work with it. Once you get used to playing Descent with it, it's impossible to go back.
One problem is that the midi mapper is screwed up in modern Windows, and doesn't let you change the default midi device. The program has to request a device. I can use it in Winamp and in VMs, but most games don't read it. However, D2X-XL is the only midi game I play a lot and fortunately uses the open source sdl_mixer library for all audio, so it should be possible to get this working.
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Neither of those are comparable situations - they arose because of the march of technology forward and the switch to a new game system. In several cases on the Xbox, games that continue to work on the 360 still have functioning servers. If you had a disc of the game that worked on the 360 (for those not backwards compatible) of the game with no other changes, the multiplayer would still work. It's much less dropping services than it is transitioning to new platforms.
Considering that PC iterations aren't advanced in "generations" like consoles, and that Valve still lets you play your WIN95/98 games multi on your own, the likelihood of any of it being dropped for the reasons you described is, while non-zero, exceedingly low.
Which, of course, ignores the fact that you aren't required to use Valve's servers in the first place. Even for Valve games. The group of friends I play Left 4 Dead with host their own server with an impressive list of mods to it, and it's supported separate from Steam.
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Many steam games in fact include an option to install a dedicated package that will run as a game server for you.
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I'm not talking about multiplayer servers, I'm talking about online services, a term which applies to Steam. The multiplayer servers was a comparison to another service which was discontinued. If Steam is discontinued you rely upon the service giving you access to your games (those not already on your computer). If they don't give you access, or further change their terms of service, you're screwed.
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Yes. In much the same way that if I keep my physical copies of games next to my computer tower, I'd be screwed if the tower went up in flames one day.
Equating a worst-case scenario with a reason to not use or a reason to be reluctant using a service is like not getting a car because a tree might fall on it at a nebulous point in the future.
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Yes, there's always that chance, however remote. But Valve has earned enough of my trust over the years for me to put little stock in that possibility, and I have faith that, should something horribly unforeseen happen, Valve would give its customer base ample time and alternatives to alleviate any loss. And if even that fell through...well, I give it an hour tops until the necessary cracks hit the Intertubes, if indeed they aren't already out there.
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Scotty and Mongoose hit the nail on the head. Valve has earned enough of my trust that I'd rather have games on Steam waiting to be downloaded than sitting across a few hard drives (note: I do not have a few hard drives to allocate to game backups). The more data I have to backup myself the sooner a hard drive will crash, I'll lose something, or any number of things that could threaten my data will happen. It's perfectly cool to want more control over things you've purchased, but if you think you have a more fault-tolerant system than Valve you are either too rich to care or wrong.
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It's not inevitable that a tower will catch fire or that a tree will far on any given car,
but it is inevitable that Steam will one day no longer be available.
There's a difference between preparing for a possibility and a certainty.
The only thing that remains in doubt is how that certainty will be handled.
The main difference between most of you and I is that I don't trust Valve. Valve is a company, not your friend, they're out there to make money. Anything they do is in an effort to make themselves more money.
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I remember reading something a long time ago about Valve saying that if they ever got to the point where shutting Steam down seemed likely, they'd release patches removing the DRM. I can't remember where I read it, however, as it was many years ago.
Regardless, even in a worst-case scenario where Valve spontaneously goes bankrupt tomorrow and Steam ceases functioning... crackers have already bypassed Steam's DRM.
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I remember reading something a long time ago about Valve saying that if they ever got to the point where shutting Steam down seemed likely, they'd release patches removing the DRM. I can't remember where I read it, however, as it was many years ago.
Are they contractually bound to do that?
Regardless, even in a worst-case scenario where Valve spontaneously goes bankrupt tomorrow and Steam ceases functioning... crackers have already bypassed Steam's DRM.
Do those cracks enable you to download your games?
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I remember reading something a long time ago about Valve saying that if they ever got to the point where shutting Steam down seemed likely, they'd release patches removing the DRM. I can't remember where I read it, however, as it was many years ago.
Are they contractually bound to do that?
Even if they were, would it matter if they spontaneously ceased to exist tomorrow?
Regardless, even in a worst-case scenario where Valve spontaneously goes bankrupt tomorrow and Steam ceases functioning... crackers have already bypassed Steam's DRM.
Do those cracks enable you to download your games?
Of course not; and neither does GOG ceasing to exist tomorrow.
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I remember reading something a long time ago about Valve saying that if they ever got to the point where shutting Steam down seemed likely, they'd release patches removing the DRM. I can't remember where I read it, however, as it was many years ago.
Are they contractually bound to do that?
Even if they were, would it matter if they spontaneously ceased to exist tomorrow?
So that's a no.
So you're contractually obligated to not sue in them in a class-action suit, but they're not obligated to provide access to things you've paid for?
Instead because some Valve guy gave a promise it must be true right? It must be true in the same way they promised Episode 3. Or in the same way they promised free content for L4D1 and instead did L4D2 until people complained.
Regardless, even in a worst-case scenario where Valve spontaneously goes bankrupt tomorrow and Steam ceases functioning... crackers have already bypassed Steam's DRM.
Do those cracks enable you to download your games?
Of course not; and neither does GOG ceasing to exist tomorrow.
Except you can backup your GOG games to whatever media you choose. So you can have all your games at home while not necessarily being installed. Or wherever you want them.
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And you cannot back up steam games..?
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You seem to be continually either missing or ignoring the fact that you can do that with Steam games too. My brother, before he left for MCT a little under two months ago, spent a couple hours copying, transferring, and backing up all of his steam games. It was literally as simple as copying the Steam directories from his computer.
So then the question becomes how is that different from GoG? The answer is fairly obvious that it isn't. You are completely able to back up your Steam games to whatever media you choose. The prudent would likewise backup a copy of the Steam program as well, but it's not strictly speaking necessary.
All of which would - surprise - allow you to put your games on any device you want (including a disc, if you felt the need, though God knows why you would) and play them whenever you want, thanks to Steam's built in offline mode.
Huh. That sounds awfully similar to what you dislike Steam for not doing. Imagine that. If you had a proper understanding of how the application actually worked, instead of blindly ranting about how games that are yours should be yours and that Steam is going to catastrophically cease to exist and ha ha you'll get the last laugh with your archaic physical media, we might be having a decent conversation.
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From what I've read you need to connect to Steam at least once after restoring an offline backup.
https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=7418-YUBN-8129
If you weren't required to, people would be zipping up their folders everywhere and just throwing them up on torrent, completely defeating the system.
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So then connect the specific instance of that Steam application once and then shelve it. You're talking less than minutes of effort here. Significantly less. It also reeks of grasping at straws to support the argument that Steam is bad because you can't back up your media, which has been pretty conclusively disproven in this thread.
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So then connect the specific instance of that Steam application once and then shelve it. You're talking less than minutes of effort here. Significantly less. It also reeks of grasping at straws to support the argument that Steam is bad because you can't back up your media, which has been pretty conclusively disproven in this thread.
So if you're required to connect to Steam, do you not understand the fundamental difference between Steam and GOG?
How will you connect to Steam if it goes down?
All that you've proven is that you lack an understanding of the fundamental differences between GOG and Steam. See you at the party Richter.
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Easy there, Scotty. Not quite the need for that level of sarcasm here, yet. You can't deny that backing up a single installer file from GoG is definitely a lot simpler than copying entire steam directories and praying that they work ok. Yes it's possible, but it's definitely not as easy as GoG's method; that is a fair point.
I think the answer to the question, "What if Steam shuts down tomorrow?" is related to the question, "Why do we bother buying games on Steam rather than just pirating them?"
We willingly spend money on games so that we can actively support the people who make games that we enjoy, and the service that makes it convenient to play them. I can't speak for everyone, but I imagine that since we've already paid for our games at least once, the moral issue with acquiring them elsewhere disappears. And that's how we deal with the dissolution of Steam, if it should happen.
Valve is a company, not your friend, they're out there to make money. Anything they do is in an effort to make themselves more money.
As a company trying to make money, it is in Valve's best interest to continue providing the service by which they actually make all their money, and to try to keep as much consumer good-will as possible. If it were bought out tomorrow by EA - for example - it would be in EA's best interest, financially, to continue providing the exact same or better service that Steam does, to prevent riots in the streets of Redwood City.
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So if you're required to connect to Steam
Once.
You are equally required to connect once to GOG.
You have willfully ignored this point several times. You are again.
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I understand the fundamental difference between Steam and GoG. I'm calling bull**** that said fundamental difference is anything near what you're making it. If you can't see why it's bull****, you need to go back and read the last few posts again.
I won't deny that it's simpler to backup GoG files. I will deny from now until Alkalabeth gets it that backing up Steam files is just as possible, which seems to be the major crux of his argument.
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So if you're required to connect to Steam
Once.
You are equally required to connect once to GOG.
You have willfully ignored this point several times. You are again.
Where does it say I need to be online while installing my games?
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It must be quite a feat for you to install your games from the internet without once connecting to said internet. I'd be interested in seeing how you circumvent that particular impossibility.
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Let's Spell it out for those that don't understand the difference:
Both GOG and Steam:
1. Purchase Game
2. Connect to service/site
3. Download and Install it
4. Back up Folders (Steam) or Install files (GOG)
Then the difference is:
GOG
1. Move backed up installer to HD
2. Install
Steam
1. Move backed up Steam folders to drive
2. CONNECT TO STEAM
Do you see the difference? Let me hilight it for you:
Steam
1. Move backed up Steam folders to drive
2. ------> CONNECT TO STEAM<-----
That difference makes physical backups of Steam internet and Steam dependent. This is the fundamental difference from GOG.
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And, once again, you're forgetting that it only takes once. Back up your steam games, and then connect once to validate your games, and you can play them as much as you want as offline as you want until the drive goes bad. If you're so strapped for time and convenience that you can't do that simple thing, I wonder what you're doing arguing on the internet.
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Where does it say I need to be online while installing my games?
So you buy an online game and never ever connect to download the installer? Magic.
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Where does it say I need to be online while installing my games?
So you buy an online game and never ever connect to download the installer? Magic.
We're discussing the benefits of BACKING UP GAMES.
Not purchasing them.
Steam games cannot be backed up in the same way that GOG games can be because even copied directories of Steam games will require internet activation.
And, once again, you're forgetting that it only takes once. Back up your steam games, and then connect once to validate your games, and you can play them as much as you want as offline as you want until the drive goes bad. If you're so strapped for time and convenience that you can't do that simple thing, I wonder what you're doing arguing on the internet.
We're not talking about convenience, we're talking about what distinguishes GOG from Steam.
I've proven what the difference is.
You remain blind to it. Or you're too stubborn to admit when you're wrong.
So what else is there to do except ignore you?
The funny thing is you're right about one thing, I do largely blindly argue about Steam, and yet despite that I'm still right because I understand the fundamental difference. You do not. When one understands the philosophical difference between GOG and Steam the details are unimportant because they can be drawn logically. Just like when you and another guy claimed backing up games was the same as GOG, I looked it up, and discovered that I was right and you were both wrong because I understand the difference and that difference is still inherent in backing up your games (that is needing to connect to Steam).
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Seems we're just going in circles here.
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Seems we're just going in circles here.
Indeed and I'm done with it.
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For a thread about "Descent on Steam", it seems there's more discussion about Steam than there is about Descent. You'd think it would be the other way around...
Seems we're just going in circles here.
Indeed and I'm done with it.
Great! Then let's consider that the final post on the Steam vs Gog debate in the thread. If (for some reason) someone wants to continue it, go start a new thread.
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I concur with Axem. Also, "debate the point, not the person" no matter how much in the "right" you may think you are in, there is a right way to be right (and just let it go) and a wrong way to be "right" that undoes any good that could otherwise come of it.
So, who doesn't already have a "Definitive" mission pack for Descent? I'm trying to find out if/when that will get added (to either platform) but failing that, since it was a collection of community content, I could probably get it hosted up somewhere.
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Most likely
Is there any reason to play Descent from the steam platform as opposed to just using the game data for DXX Rebirth though? That was sort of my thoughts when I first saw this
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Most likely
Is there any reason to play Descent from the steam platform as opposed to just using the game data for DXX Rebirth though? That was sort of my thoughts when I first saw this
I actually got the package on Steam (despite still having Retail Discs) and then installed DXX and pointed Steam to launch via that instead. Same thing I did with DooM I/][ with Brutal DooM.
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Is there any reason to play Descent from the steam platform as opposed to just using the game data for DXX Rebirth though? That was sort of my thoughts when I first saw this
If you already have the game data, there's no particular reason, but obviously you'd need said data first. As far as the Definitive Collection levels and/or D2's Vertigo expansion, I know people have those up for download, as neither is offered in GOG's version either.
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Does anyone have a link to a minimal-tweaking installer? I have an ancient Descent II disc, and I tried D2XL, but I found the configuration was still an immense pain in the ass.
I don't have time to spend hours configuring this crap. I'd just like to play :)
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Does anyone have a link to a minimal-tweaking installer? I have an ancient Descent II disc, and I tried D2XL, but I found the configuration was still an immense pain in the ass.
I don't have time to spend hours configuring this crap. I'd just like to play :)
If you "just want to play", don't play D2X-XL; it requires a lot of supporting files and fiddling with configurations to get working (and the latest version doesn't work on my computer anyway; I think it's got a memory leak or something). Instead, you should probably look at DXX-Rebirth (http://www.dxx-rebirth.com/). It doesn't require anything except the original game data, and even supports high-res textures (though not the full set of graphical updates and gameplay changes D2X-XL offers, of course).
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i had d2x-xl a while ago on my old computer, but i don't remember it being a huge pain to install. i seem to recall getting the retail disk to install being the harder part.
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I've used both for a while. Love the modifications that x-xl has to offer, but rebirth is a simpler installation and, at least for me, more consistently stable. I'd recommend it if you just want the classic feel for the game without the extra hassle.
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I use an old version of XL from 3 years ago that seems pretty stable. If it seems unstable, try making a new pilot for it. I recall getting a lot of obscure crashes in the past due to pilot file incompatibilities between the versions. It does take a little work to set up, but some of the modern mission packs require XL and use its new features.
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I've got a motherlode of missions / levels / etc for the Descent series somewhere, hopefully, on one of my old hard disks. If I can find it perhaps I can upload it again as there would be renewed interest as the stuff is out on Steam now.
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I already have Descent 1-3 on GOG so I really don't need this. Although I haven't played Descent in a while...
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Just noticed it today as apart of the 'week long' deals. The first 2 Descents are on Steam. Awesome
Or is this old news? I hope I am the first to spread the word. Who needs a second copy?
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This is old news. http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=86825.0
In fact, while I'm at it, I'll merge the threads together.
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i still have my descent cds. oldest games in my collection and nay a scratch.
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They have everything but D3:Mercenaries now. I think someone should remind them of the old, forgotten expansion. :)
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Pew pew Level 6 Quad Lasers!
Or the Gauss Cannon, the most stupidly overpowered weapon to ever grace a video game ever. :P
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I loved Gauss. Count the shots!
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I liked the knock back in the Vulcan cannon in D1. Used to tri-chord in circles around bots one by one with that. If I was lucky enough to be in an open room, that is...