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Off-Topic Discussion => Gaming Discussion => Topic started by: Sushi on July 08, 2015, 02:51:42 pm

Title: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Post by: Sushi on July 08, 2015, 02:51:42 pm
http://dereksmart3000ad.tumblr.com/post/123125564079/interstellar-citizens

http://www.dereksmart.org/2015/07/interstellar-citizens/

https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/3chb2q/derek_smart_apparently_wants_to_do_something/


TL;DR: Derek Smart, in a fit of self-righteous anger, is apparently trying to initiate some sort of legal crap against Cloud Imperium over Star Citizen. A move that, given his history with HLP, will likely come as a shock to nobody here.

Get out your popcorn gifs, because dis gon b gud (http://img.pandawhale.com/post-54562-sith-gon-b-gud-gif-Imgur-dis-c-JohF.gif).

EDIT: Update  (http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3639730&pagenumber=761&perpage=40#post447625977) (Derek comments on SomethingAwful)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be t aking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on July 08, 2015, 03:00:25 pm
This is the best thing.  There is absolutely no way this can end in a way that won't be hilarious, no matter who wins.

On one hand, we have a has-been with a huge ego who has an overwhelming tendency to make promises he can't deliver on, and on the other, we have Derek Smart, who must be the only person in the industry to have an even bigger ego.  And, to paraphrase a post on SA, both of them have made the exact same number of good games over the past 15 years.

It's amazing.  Star Citizen is a neverending gold mine of fun (just not in the way Christ Roberts intended).
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be t aking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: X3N0-Life-Form on July 08, 2015, 04:40:54 pm
Well this should be interesting. I'll get the popcorn.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be t aking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: headdie on July 08, 2015, 05:02:27 pm
sooo Star Citizen has over run, admittedly by spectacular fashion, but I am at a loss as to what legal justification for recourse he is looking for,
- Broken promise? how many games have been delayed?
- Broken promise after money had changed hands? release dates given on Pre-orders anyone
- Exceeding budget? see first point
- Feature Creep? see first point

Basically he is *****ing about things which while emphasized in SC's case are SOP in the industry.

If he wants to do some good, how about all the Crowd funding projects which have gone belly up after delivering nothing, at least SC is pumping out periodic tech demos.

Now one paragraph I found very interesting was
Quote
end of http://www.dereksmart.org/2015/07/interstellar-citizens/

So I really do hope and pray that RSI can pull this off, because if someone like me, with all my experience and expertise on this very same subject and who has spent half a lifetime trying can’t do it without sacrificing something (visual fidelity, performance, scope etc) in the process, and they, with all this money and star talent can’t do it either, then it’s safe to say that it simply can’t be done. At least not in our lifetime.

Go Home Derek, your drunk
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be t aking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Sushi on July 08, 2015, 05:07:08 pm
To be fair, he has spent a huge chunk of his life trying to accomplish exactly what Star Citizen is going for, and probably has a better idea than nearly anyone about how incredibly hard it is to pull off.

Title: Re: Derek Smart might be t aking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Turambar on July 08, 2015, 05:17:10 pm
To be fair, he has spent a huge chunk of his life trying to accomplish exactly what Star Citizen is going for, and probably has a better idea than nearly anyone about how incredibly hard it is to pull off.



He knows how hard the first 3 or 4 steps are, at least.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be t aking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: headdie on July 08, 2015, 05:17:53 pm
To be fair, he has spent a huge chunk of his life trying to accomplish exactly what Star Citizen is going for, and probably has a better idea than nearly anyone about how incredibly hard it is to pull off.



the difference is that Roberts is so far pulling it off, admittedly there is a long way to go before SC can be considered vaguely ready so time will be the witness of if he succeeds, but given the history of the two people I have massively more faith in Roberts abilities as a project leader than I could have in Smart short of releasing a very well polished game.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be t aking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on July 08, 2015, 05:39:18 pm
To be fair, he has spent a huge chunk of his life trying to accomplish exactly what Star Citizen is going for, and probably has a better idea than nearly anyone about how incredibly hard it is to pull off.



the difference is that Roberts is so far pulling it off, admittedly there is a long way to go before SC can be considered vaguely ready so time will be the witness of if he succeeds, but given the history of the two people I have massively more faith in Roberts abilities as a project leader than I could have in Smart short of releasing a very well polished game.
The only think CR is pulling off is feature creep and missing every single deadline he's ever set.  Oh, he's also amazingly good at selling virtual spaceships for hundreds or thousands of dollars. 

If, as that moron Lesnick says, avoiding dates is CIG's goal, they're pulling that off magnificently. 

Making a decent game?  No.  They're not even close.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be t aking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: headdie on July 08, 2015, 06:38:12 pm
like I say in my last post, SC is a long way from being considered complete so time will ultimately show if my faith in Roberts is justified but given past histories, Roberts has a history of successful games, Smart's reputation crashed and burned somewhere in the 90s, who knows, maybe the 2010s will be when we turn on Roberts, I hope not because I respect the hell out of him but just as SC succeeding is a real possibility, so is it crashing and burning a large chunk of the internet world.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be t aking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on July 08, 2015, 06:51:07 pm
Am I missing something here?  Because apart from the hideously tl dr career story he offers about himself, I see no legal issues anywhere. Just an opinion. One that I even share at general.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be t aking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Scotty on July 08, 2015, 06:51:18 pm
SC succeeding is far more of a long shot than it is a real possibility right now.  As of last ****ing August it had raised $50 million.  Today, it's passed $80 million.  And yet, we have a dogfighting demo, pre-order packages that cost $15 thousand ****ing dollars to unlock the privilege of spending $2,500 on a new ship, and absolutely nothing of the game promised.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be t aking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on July 08, 2015, 07:01:46 pm
There's no way at this point that Star Citizen will be either good or remotely on time, but the former is legally irrelevant and the latter won't be at the stage where you can seriously take action against them for a long while yet.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be t aking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on July 08, 2015, 07:44:42 pm
like I say in my last post, SC is a long way from being considered complete so time will ultimately show if my faith in Roberts is justified but given past histories, Roberts has a history of successful games, Smart's reputation crashed and burned somewhere in the 90s, who knows, maybe the 2010s will be when we turn on Roberts, I hope not because I respect the hell out of him but just as SC succeeding is a real possibility, so is it crashing and burning a large chunk of the internet world.
I wouldn't say CR has a history of good games.  I'd say he has a history of promising the world and delivering mediocrity.  That's what Freelancer was, and I have absolutely no reason to expect he'll do any better here.  Back when the KS first started, I thought maybe he'd learned from his past mistakes, but no, it's getting more and more obvious that he isn't able to control his ambition.  The fact that CIG has missed every single deadline they've ever set is ample evidence of that, as is the fact that what they have delivered still isn't fun to play.  Diaspora, which doesn't have a budget at all, managed to make a more fun newtonian combat sim than CR's $80M dogfight module.

And rather than make the space sim part of their space sim game better, CIG's having trouble making CryEngine, an FPS engine, work as an FPS.  Oh, they're also adding minigames for passenger liner flight attendants.  Wow, way to have your priorities straight, guys.  Wait, hang on, gotta make sure the 3rd person character model blinks at exactly the same time as the 1st person model.  Obviously that's way more important than making dogfighting fun.

At what point does it feel like CIG know what the **** they're doing?  Because I swear we have more competent developers on HLP (actually HLP has more competent developers than a lot of big studios, but you get my point).


And it's not like I'm expecting much from SQ42 either, given how CR's previous story-based outing was Starlancer, which was a horrible, horrible game.  Even the Wing Commander series makes it painfully obvious that CR would much rather be making movies than games.  90% of the (bad) story is in cutscenes, and the mission design is objectively ****awful.

Mission design probably isn't going to be improved in SQ42, because somehow, Foundry 42 is making missions while CIG is still pinning down the base space sim gameplay.  No ****ing clue how that works.



No, none of this is legally actionable, but the fact that Derek Smart of all people has declared war on Star Citizen is funny as hell.  If you can judge a man by the quality of his enemies, this says a great deal about CR and SC as a whole.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be t aking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: General Battuta on July 08, 2015, 08:06:42 pm
What's important, is, to simulate everything. For immersion.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be t aking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on July 08, 2015, 08:12:18 pm
I for one won't be happy until SC simulates the way the spacesuit chafes my character's ass and it has a concrete effect on gameplay.

"You can't aim properly because your ass itches.  Press F and move the mouse to scratch your ass."
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be t aking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on July 08, 2015, 08:19:09 pm
well that's why they decided to develop from scratch an entire game's worth of mechanics dedicated to moving **** around with your hands

because their plan for making trading less boring is to let you load your cargo manually
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be t aking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Sushi on July 08, 2015, 10:36:59 pm
Am I missing something here?  Because apart from the hideously tl dr career story he offers about himself, I see no legal issues anywhere. Just an opinion. One that I even share at general.

Read the reddit thread I linked, especially the comment that screenshots several pages of long-winded text from his Facebook page.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: NGTM-1R on July 09, 2015, 12:30:23 am
Aesaar, did Cloud Imperium Games kill your dog or something? I get where you're coming from but your presentation is so hostile (even in the complete lack of opposing parties) I almost feel compelled to disagree with you just for being an ass.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on July 09, 2015, 02:00:31 am
So disagree with me.  But until you come up with better reasoning than "you're an ass", don't expect me to care.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: karajorma on July 09, 2015, 02:08:51 am
I'm going to assume that NGTM-1R means that he is going to disagree with you because he is an ass. Not that he was calling you one. The latter isn't acceptable behaviour on here. Certainly not from someone who just got out of the Political Prisoners group on the grounds that they could remain civil.




As for the issue itself, Derek Smart actually does make quite a few well-reasoned points. He is definitely correct that whatever the end product is, it won't be the game the Kickstarter promised. If we are very lucky it might be better but there is a good chance it will be an unplayable mess that will kick the entire space combat genre back into the grave it had been lying in with a stake through its heart.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: NGTM-1R on July 09, 2015, 02:25:52 am
So disagree with me.  But until you come up with better reasoning than "you're an ass", don't expect me to care.

Presentation matters. You come across as incredibly bitter and angry about the issue, making anything you say automatically suspect in the eyes of party without prior knowledge. You can scream in rage unto the void about how it's bad and wrong and a betrayal and Chris Roberts is terrible all you want, but as long as you're screaming in rage, nobody really cares to listen.

Tone it down for chrissakes. Even though you're right you are literally not accomplishing anything besides giving people reasons not to take you seriously.

@Karaj: As a veteran of the Kazan Wars, you should know full well the point that was being made here and why it was. Shall I quote Aldo to you? "Even when you agree with the man his attitude is so noxious you find yourself compelled to take the opposite side." People who talk this way in Steam topics get muzzled for it.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Flipside on July 09, 2015, 02:45:44 am
The points DS makes are not entirely invalid. I'm not exceptionally enamoured of him, but he is saying something that needs to be said about Kickstarter and other sites.

There's always been something that has kept me away from Star Citizen, not sure what it is, possibly the fact that whatever Space-Sim video I watched, there was inevitably someone gushing about how good it was going to be in the comments. Having backed Starforge, I kind of dial back my opinion of many Kickstarter developers concepts of 'realistic' goals. As Peter Molyneux proved, sometimes it's possible to overpromise in order to get your backing, and not realize till later that you cannot possibly meet those goals in gameplay-compatible fashion.

Feature Creep is still alive and well, and that's fine, ambition fuels progress, but you have to draw a line under it all at some point.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: karajorma on July 09, 2015, 03:04:53 am
@NGTM-1R I got the point you were making. I'm just pointing out that you could have said it more diplomatically. Your second post on the subject is what your first post should have been.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on July 09, 2015, 03:22:33 am
NGTM-1R: I'm not trying to convince anyone.  I'm explaining the problem with CIG.  I don't really care whether you believe me or not.  There are people on this forum whose opinion of me I care about.  You are not one of them.  If you feel like disagreeing with me on principle, I'll address pertinent arguments and ignore the rest.

But I'll take what you've said under consideration and try to write something a bit less passionate.  This is the best I can do:

I really wish there was something good about SC I could point to, but there isn't.  I backed in March 2013, got up to 430$ at one point (I sold all my pledges at a profit last year).  I really wanted to like this game.  Three years and 85 million dollars after the Kickstarter, CIG has missed each and every single one of their project deadlines.  They're 4 months behind this year's schedule, and 7 months behind last year's schedule.  The scope of the game has expanded massively, and I no longer believe CR and CIG have the ability to make a decent game out of SC.

You are right about one thing: I am somewhat bitter.  This game could have been something pretty good, and it was the initial pitch that sold me on it: A space sim where ships operate in a physically well-simulated environment, where maneuvering thrusters are actually modeled and can be shot out, affecting ship handling?  Hey, that sounds great.  Physically walking around the carrier in the campaign, that sounds pretty cool too.  Most importantly, this is doable.   Since then, CR has let his obsession with making ~the perfect game~ run rampant, and it's turned SC from an ambitious but reasonable space sim into some bloated SF life simulator that simply can't hope to be any good even if it gets to a full release.  The scope is simply too great.

So yeah, that's made me a bit bitter, and cries of "I trust CR" really annoy me because he's the reason this game is probably going to fail.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on July 09, 2015, 03:31:48 am
I think was clear long ago that Star Citizen will be delayed, but I dont consider that a big problem. There is nothing wrong with "release when its done" attitude, I am patient enough. Its a good thing, not a bad thing, that they seem to have chosen that instead of rushing it or cutting features. Especially when there is no publisher to get mad about it, and while some crowdfunders might get mad, do you really think they wont play the game once its finally released? Its an impotent rage, quickly forgotten once the release actually happens (as long as the game is good of course).

As for the quality of the finished product, I after trying out the revamped flight model, I am again pretty optimistic. Its now pretty close to Diaspora actually. And the fact that they are focusing on technical/simulation aspects perhaps at the expense of story and gameplay might be worrying for people more interested in the story and vanilla game, but a big part of why I look forward to SC is the modding/total conversion potential of having such an advanced space opera game engine available. Even if the SC base game turns out to be a meh tech demo, I expect the game engine to spawn some awesome mods/TCs over time (Freespace Citizen?), or even entire new games by being licensed to third parties.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on July 09, 2015, 03:37:14 am
Duke Nukem Forever had a "when it's done" release schedule.

You can't release when you're constantly remaking assets because production is taking so long those assets are becoming dated. 

Quote from: Ben Lesnick, https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/comment/5283349/#Comment_5283349
Every single piece of art you saw last year has been revamped since then, every single ship has either been reworked or is scheduled to be.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: karajorma on July 09, 2015, 03:59:08 am
That last comment is distinctly worrying. Get the game done. Then remodel. Otherwise you'll end up constantly remaking models.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on July 09, 2015, 04:02:39 am
Duke Nukem Forever had a "when it's done" release schedule.

You can't release when you're constantly remaking assets because production is taking so long those assets are becoming dated. 

Quote from: Ben Lesnick, https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/comment/5283349/#Comment_5283349
Every single piece of art you saw last year has been revamped since then, every single ship has either been reworked or is scheduled to be.

Its not that they are dated, its that they can make them even better - iterative approach to asset creation.

Its a "good" thing that we are now in the age when graphics are already not advancing very much and releasing your game even a few years out of date does not mean its technically dated, especially when you targeted only the high-end PCs during development. If Crysis was released today, it would still compare favorably and that game is 8 years old! Consolitis has slowed down technical progress, which might be bad for gaming overall, but its good for delayed games - even a few years delay now does not mean your game will be dated on release.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on July 09, 2015, 04:31:32 am
I might be making enemies here, but I'm with Derek on this one. Yes, I KNOW. I KNOW. Don't lecture me on Derek. I KNOW. You just have to read his post. Jesus, what a personality. BUT STILL. He. Has. A. Point. And at some point in time, he will have a LEGAL point as well.

This is going to bomb. And hard.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: The E on July 09, 2015, 04:36:53 am
As for the quality of the finished product, I after trying out the revamped flight model, I am again pretty optimistic. Its now pretty close to Diaspora actually. And the fact that they are focusing on technical/simulation aspects perhaps at the expense of story and gameplay might be worrying for people more interested in the story and vanilla game, but a big part of why I look forward to SC is the modding/total conversion potential of having such an advanced space opera game engine available. Even if the SC base game turns out to be a meh tech demo, I expect the game engine to spawn some awesome mods/TCs over time (Freespace Citizen?), or even entire new games by being licensed to third parties.

Yeah, about that: Have they actually given any hints how the modding pipeline will work, or how good a scripting system they have?
Way I see it, Crysis modding was already not that easy. Modding this monster of a game, with all the many, MANY moving parts it has compared to something as simple as Crysis, is an order of magnitude or three harder. I think we're going to see Bethesda-style modding (i.e. asset replacement here or there, maybe even some single-player missions or something) at best.

Its a "good" thing that we are now in the age when graphics are already not advancing very much and releasing your game even a few years out of date does not mean its technically dated, especially when you targeted only the high-end PCs during development. If Crysis was released today, it would still compare favorably and that game is 8 years old! Consolitis has slowed down technical progress, which might be bad for gaming overall, but its good for delayed games - even a few years delay now does not mean your game will be dated on release.

It really wouldn't. Crysis has, if anything, aged really badly.

And yeah, I could understand them redoing their assets once to switch to PBR. That's understandable. Redoing them again, that's a sign of a developer who values perfection higher than functionality, which is death for any project (The better being the enemy of the good and all that).


Compare Star Citizen to Elite Dangerous: Frontier had a really good idea of what they wanted their game to be at release. They got some funding, made the game, released it in a playable state and got to work on incremental add-ons after launch, a strategy people seem generally happy about.
SC, on the other hand? Dozens of features added in later. Every public milestone missed by months. Ships that were in the original KS pitch still not flyable (Looking at you, Freelancer), but look at all these new shinies right here!

CIG communicates a lot. But I would put it to you that what they're actually doing is swamping us with minutiae in the hope that we'll mistake that for actual, big picture news, and that's somewhat galling. If CR came out and said, "Okay, we're hopelessly behind schedule, we're going to start shelving features until we got it cut down to something we can release in alpha state by the end of the year", I'd have much more faith in the project. But as it stands, that's not gonna happen.

Iterative game development is something new and potentially awesome. Why isn't SC using it?

I might be making enemies here, but I'm with Derek on this one. Yes, I KNOW. I KNOW. Don't lecture me on Derek. I KNOW. You just have to read his post. Jesus, what a personality. BUT STILL. He. Has. A. Point. And at some point in time, he will have a LEGAL point as well.

This is going to bomb. And hard.

I think you'll find that most of us who have posted here agree with that sentiment :P
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: karajorma on July 09, 2015, 05:21:29 am
If Derek Smart is reading this thread, I'm sure he'll be amazed by that fact. :D
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on July 09, 2015, 05:52:43 am
Compare Star Citizen to Elite Dangerous: Frontier had a really good idea of what they wanted their game to be at release. They got some funding, made the game, released it in a playable state and got to work on incremental add-ons after launch, a strategy people seem generally happy about.

Elite: Dangerous is honestly pretty shallow and while not a bad game, it can get repetitive fast. It is more like Arena Commander or FPS module in terms of complexity rather than Star Citizen itself. Arena Commander release can be considered partially iterative development, too. It is playable and I would even say that it is fun.

Also, while iterative development is fine, sometimes you just have to wait it out until core engine features are properly developed and there is not shortcut possible. That is the stage where SC is now. I have a feeling that once multicrew space combat, FPS and 64-bit update is properly integrated into one map, which should be done this year hopefully, we will see a lot more of iterative releases and playable content.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: The E on July 09, 2015, 06:04:19 am
Elite: Dangerous is honestly pretty shallow and while not a bad game, it can get repetitive fast. It is more like Arena Commander or FPS module in terms of complexity rather than Star Citizen itself. Arena Commander release can be considered partially iterative development, too. It is playable and I would even say that it is fun.

That's not the point. You're right, E:D is a bit shallow, but it is getting deeper with every major update and most importantly, it's released and people are playing it right now.
Compare that to Arena Commander: Last I checked, there were something like 4 playable ships on three maps in 4 game modes. That is after it has been out for a year.

That's not iterative development. That's throwing people bones instead of meat.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Hades on July 09, 2015, 06:11:00 am
Also, while iterative development is fine, sometimes you just have to wait it out until core engine features are properly developed and there is not shortcut possible. That is the stage where SC is now. I have a feeling that once multicrew space combat, FPS and 64-bit update is properly integrated into one map, which should be done this year hopefully, we will see a lot more of iterative releases and playable content.
This is not happening by the end of the year in any meaningful capacity, here's why and what you fail to understand about game development:

This is the problem with Star Citizen's broadened scope and development plan. The more you add to a game the more exponentially high the amount of work is needed to realize that increased scope. This is especially bad when you try to do everything at once, because development becomes a mess. This is further amplified by the fact that several different sub-studios split up over the world are working on the game (AFAIK). What trying to do everything at once will end up accomplishing is instead doing nothing at all.

Chris Roberts is basically George Lucas because he lacks a natural filter, he has to have someone or some entity to reign in his insanity, hold his hand and point him in the right direction. What'll eventually happen is, if the game releases then it'll be years in the future and the final product will be a mediocre mess that had to cut back on a lot of the promised features in order to finally release. It'll be like GTA5 but it'll be a failure on a much larger magnitude.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on July 09, 2015, 06:27:17 am
Quote
Chris Roberts is basically George Lucas because he lacks a natural filter, he has to have someone or some entity to reign in his insanity, hold his hand and point him in the right direction.
This.  Chris Roberts is an amazing idea guy.  He's the kind of guy whose ideas revolutionize something, the way George Lucas revolutionised special effects and SF space combat.  You listen to CR talk, and it pumps you up.  You want to play these ideas he has.  It made for a perfect Kickstarter.

But left on his own, as head of a project, there's nothing to keep those ideas in check.  Roberts doesn't know how to say "that's a bad idea" or "that's good enough, we should stop".  It's always got to be bigger and better.  As marketing, it works stupidly well.  But for actual game development, it needs to be moderated.  Roberts is the exact kind of person who needs a publisher there to control him.  It's obvious that the reason he doesn't like publishers is because they force him to make compromises he doesn't want to make.  But you need compromises to have a game that'll release.  You need a point where you can say "that's enough, this is the game", and you need to know exactly where that point is when you start.  CR has pushed that point further and further away in order to add more features, and it's gotten out of control.

In Todd Howard's* words: you can do anything, but you can't do everything.  And say what you want about Bethesda games, but they release on time and on budget, and are generally pretty solid.


What Roberts needs to to do is to stop.  He needs to think very carefully about what he wants in Star Citizen, and what can wait for a content pack or expansion.  I'd say that the FPS combat and planetary exploration parts are firmly in the latter category.  As is half the ship list.

But he can't do that either, can he?  He raised 85 million dollars based on all these promises he made, and cutting features would piss a lot of people off, even if they just spent 30$.  Because with a common pool like this, suddenly it's the community's money, and that's a lot their paid for a hybrid sim and FPS game.

And that's not a choice I think he's likely to make.  I don't think he'll compromise his vision and risk the wrath of his insanely fanatical fanbase in the name of practicality and common sense.


*Game Director and Executive Producer at Bethesda, in case you don't know

Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on July 09, 2015, 06:37:16 am
Elite: Dangerous is honestly pretty shallow and while not a bad game, it can get repetitive fast. It is more like Arena Commander or FPS module in terms of complexity rather than Star Citizen itself.

While E:D is far more complex than SC's modules, you're right that it is a lot less complex than the eventual ambitions of Star Citizen. There's a lesson in this: Frontier went simple and built on their design from there. They were able to release a far more complete product than anything CIG have come out with within two years. CIG decided to design a giant top-down cluster**** of systems shackled to fanwank expectations, and they've yet to produce even a functional flight sim.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on July 09, 2015, 06:40:51 am
That's not the point. You're right, E:D is a bit shallow, but it is getting deeper with every major update and most importantly, it's released and people are playing it right now.
Compare that to Arena Commander: Last I checked, there were something like 4 playable ships on three maps in 4 game modes. That is after it has been out for a year.

There are 9 playable ships, most of them with additional variants, and six game modes now. Elite Dangerous has 20 flyable ships, which is on the same order as SC. And those Elite ships are less detailed than SC ones. Moreover, Arena Commander does not pretend to be a finished game at all, unlike Elite, but only a part of the whole.


This is not happening by the end of the year in any meaningful capacity, here's why and what you fail to understand about game development:

    The FPS segment of Starcitizen and the space combat of Star Citizen are both effectively two different games that need to be merged.

I see no reason why at least core game mechanics shouldnt be playable by the end of the year. That is, integrating FPS and space combat is challenging but perfectly doable with resources SC has. You can already get out of your ship and walk around it in Arena Commander, even tough it is a bit buggy. Moreover, this was the aim of SC from the start, it is not bloat or feature creep at all, it is a core feature.

You people are just not patient enough and expect a constant stream of goodies, but that is not always possible during development. Original SC release was by the end of 2015. Considering how ambitious it is, it is not unreasonable to expect a year or two of delay. So, SC has until the end of 2017 to live up to my expectations. If it doesnt by then, I will become concerned, but not before.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: The E on July 09, 2015, 07:01:12 am
I see no reason why at least core game mechanics shouldnt be playable by the end of the year. That is, integrating FPS and space combat is challenging but perfectly doable with resources SC has. You can already get out of your ship and walk around it in Arena Commander, even tough it is a bit buggy. Moreover, this was the aim of SC from the start, it is not bloat or feature creep at all, it is a core feature.

You may see no reason, but I do. That sort of gameplay transition is a standard thing. Bloody Halo did it, god knows how many years ago. It's a solved problem, as much as anything in gamedev is.

That it is buggy should tell you something.

Quote
You people are just not patient enough and expect a constant stream of goodies, but that is not always possible during development. Original SC release was by the end of 2015. Considering how ambitious it is, it is not unreasonable to expect a year or two of delay. So, SC has until the end of 2017 to live up to my expectations. If it doesnt by then, I will become concerned, but not before.

SC has been in development since 2012. By the original development timeline, we should have had the so-called Planetside update, the FPS/Boarding thing, and an alpha version of the Squadron 42 singleplayer campaign online by now. We do not. All we have is Arena Commander.
Missing deadlines is a thing, especially on ambitious projects. I think everyone who originally bought into SC understood that. But the thing is that, and I mentioned this earlier in this thread, CIG is terrible about communicating the state of the project. Every week, we get mostly content-free updates from them, updates that do not do much to answer important questions about the game (Aesaar found this post (https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/comment/5284359/#Comment_5284359) on the RSI forums that, AFAIK, has not received any response yet. Look at it closely, and ask yourself why we do not know any of these incredibly fundamental things about the game).

It is not a matter of not having patience. It's a matter of not having confidence, and the various high-profile departures from CIG over the past few months and CIG's communications issues do not inspire any.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on July 09, 2015, 07:05:36 am
And those Elite ships are less detailed than SC ones.

The Elite ships are finished. The Elite ships are released. The Elite ships are fun to fly. I'd say that more than makes up for them not having modelled toilets.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on July 09, 2015, 07:10:23 am
I see no reason why at least core game mechanics shouldnt be playable by the end of the year. That is, integrating FPS and space combat is challenging but perfectly doable with resources SC has. You can already get out of your ship and walk around it in Arena Commander, even tough it is a bit buggy. Moreover, this was the aim of SC from the start, it is not bloat or feature creep at all, it is a core feature.
It's not going to happen by the end of the year because they don't even have a standalone shooter ready yet, and have no ETA until they do. 

And even once it's ready, they'll have three separate things: Arena Commander (for shooting at ships with your ship), Star Marine (for shooting at people), and the Hangar Module (for walking around and inside the ships).  It's delusional to think finishing the FPS and unifying all these modules will be a 6 month affair.  Especially given that CryEngine is an FPS engine and CIG still haven't managed to make a standalone corridor shooter out of it yet.


Quote
You people are just not patient enough and expect a constant stream of goodies, but that is not always possible during development. Original SC release was by the end of 2015. Considering how ambitious it is, it is not unreasonable to expect a year or two of delay. So, SC has until the end of 2017 to live up to my expectations. If it doesnt by then, I will become concerned, but not before.
I don't expect a constant stream of goodies.  I expect a bit of substance.  Three years in, and CIG has delivered a mediocre dogfight game which still isn't representative of the gameplay they want, according to CIG themselves.  They have delivered nothing else.  Not even good information.  Here's a list of questions someone posted over in Ben Lesnick's "everything is fine, there are no American tanks in Baghdad" megathread:

Quote from: Beer4TheBeerGod https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/comment/5284359/#Comment_5284359
CR mentioned that there are three types of gameplay planned: solo, small group, and large group. How does large group play work? Where do they fight, what do they fight over, how do they fight? How are those groups managed? How does conflict work when the organizations exceed the capacity of a single instance? How will NPC groups like the UEE interact with large orgs, particularly if an org becomes particularly powerful?

How does one control a station? What are the benefits of controlling that station? How does one prevent others from using that station, and how do others take control from the owner? How long does that take to occur? How big of a conflict is it? Can stations be upgraded, if so to what extent?

How do I fly from point A to point B? We know of an auto-pilot mechanic and we've seen a q-drive animation, but that's it. How will sensors work outside of an instance? What can I see? What can't I see? How do the instancing mechanics and sensor mechanics work together so I can intercept someone? If we're both going 0.2c can I even intercept someone if I'm behind them? Do I have to follow nav points or can I just freely fly from point to point? How do players ambush each other?

How does one find a jump point? How does one explore a planet or other unknown area? Is an instance dynamically generated for me to walk around? How big is it? How much can I see? What can I do? How much fresh content is there, and how much repetition? How often will new jump points be generated? How will players even know when to look for a jump point, and when they're wasting their time?

How big is a solar system? What is it equivalent to in terms of content? How many locations are there? How many players is a single system designed to hold? How long will it take to cross a system (we've heard multiple values)?

What percentage of the universe is divided between lawless and lawful space? What happens if I commit a crime in lawless space, how does that affect my reputation in lawful space? What resources will be available in lawless space that can't be obtained anywhere? How will CIG encourage PvP in lawless space since it's supposed to be the "no holds barred" super risky area equivalent to Demon Souls in terms of difficulty?

How are ships supposed to fly in terms of their feel? Is the current implementation of Arena Commander how they're envisioned? How is a multi-crew ship different from a small ship? How long is combat between two equal ships supposed to take? What role will missiles play, and is the current implementation how it's envisioned? What will guns be differentiated from each other so I might want a repeater for one scenario and a mass driver for another?

How will Star Citizen become controller agnostic?

What is the expected feel of FPS? Is it supposed to be short and brutal? If so, how will FPS gameplay be encouraged if death is supposed to be meaningful?

How will a player return to the game after death, and what will the penalty of death actually be in terms of time and asset loss? How will CIG make death a meaningful penalty while still encouraging risky gameplay? If the mechanic involves a pilot being "rescued" how will that work? If I "kill" a pilot and he's rescued, does that mean he has a record of me attacking him? What is the difference in penalty between being rescued and dying such that you play your next of kin?

How will two capital ships fight? Will they share an instance, or will the distances be such that they effectively fight across instances? How many players will be expected to pilot a capital ship? What is the benefit of having a crew station manned by a PC versus a NPC? Since capital ships are always persistent within the game universe, what happens when nobody from an organization is available to man it?

To what extent will players be required to visit store after store as opposed to just getting what they want over the local equivalent of the Internet? How often will I run into someone who doesn't own the place but has an arrangement with the people who do? How will planetside interaction be engaging and fun instead of a chore like it is with most games?

How many characters can I have per account? Is there any way for me to find out if one character shares the same account as another? What exactly does a "NPC slot" entail and what are the benefits of having it?

How are crimes recorded? How far does a record of a crime propagate? Is a record limited to a system, region, entire Empire? How does a player pay for his crimes? How does jail work? How does being captured by a bounty hunter work? What about enslaving another player?

How does fuel work? How big of a role will fuel play within the game? Will there be multiple types of fuel? How far is a ship expected to be able to travel before refueling? What happens if a ship runs out of fuel, can they be trapped? How does a ship scoop fuel from a gas giant? Will fuel be a meaningful resource with scarcity (particularly in the lawless regions), or will it be something similar to Elite where it's more of an inconvenience?

How will instances actually work? What are the parameters for matchmaking, and are there places the matchmaker is less likely to work than others? What will prevent an instance from exceeding capacity? What will the players see when that happens? How big is the capacity of an instance, and what determines that capacity? Is it possible to "break" an instance by (for example) having all of your crew jump out of an airlock?

How many hours of gameplay will it take to earn an Aurora? Avenger? Cutlass? Super Hornet? Constellation? Reclaimer? Idris?

How does salvage work? How are components extracted? What are the legalities of salvage? Will wrecks persist once an instance is empty, so that I can pop a ship and then bring in my buddies to take it?

What will be done to ensure that gameplay is meaningful and engaging, particularly for multi-crew play? Why would someone want to be the missile loader after they've done it the first time?

How will repairing your ship work? What level of skill will be involved, or will it be similar to the healing gun for the FPS? How long will repairs take?

How will piracy work? How do I find a prize? How do I get them to dump their cargo? If they resist, how do I ensure their cargo stays intact while we fight?

How does the modularity system work? To what extent can I change the functionality of a ship? We know of cargo pods and modules being inserted, but not of what they'll do or what the benefits are.

How does the painting system work? How much can I customize the appearance of my ship? Can I get a custom logo for my organization? What's the process for getting that logo into the game?

How much will insurance cost? How long will it take for me to get a ship back through insurance? Minutes? Hours? Days? Weeks?

How is inventory managed? How will I see what my person has on them? How do I put on armor or store a weapon? How long does it take to put on a suit, for example if there's a hole in my ship and I'm losing oxygen? If I shoot someone is there any limitation on what I can take from their body?

How are credits managed? Is it possible to steal credits from someone else? Are there physical representations of credits, or is it entirely electronic? How do alien entities handle UEE currency? What about pirates?

How does ship armor work?

How does life support work? Am I limited by the number of crew I can carry? Will I run out of oxygen if I have too many people? What about air breathing cargo? Can I carry cows, and if so do I need to upgrade my life support system to accommodate them?

These are questions about the fundamental gameplay mechanics, something CIG has remained very tight-lipped about.  They're not easy questions, but they're insanely important.  CIG's lack of communication about these matters is extremely telling.  The Kickstarter was three years ago.  These questions should have had answers long before now. 

Don't tell me we aren't patient enough.  Three years, and we still don't have any concrete information about how the game is supposed to play.  All we have are vague promises.


EDIT: The_E beat me to it.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on July 09, 2015, 07:13:49 am
In truth, I'm am sympathetic to the developers who got into his company and have to deal with the trainwreck of all of his ambitions crashing into reality. The level of nerve-wreckedness that this environment must already be into, the number of whispers of how the direction is being lunatic (and how ultimately, it's always the devs fault, because of course). It must be staggering, the kind of fatalist doomed pressure they must be in.

Which might not help affairs at all. I can even picture some of them, "What, what did he mean we are going to make fps combat inside big ships while others are fighting outside with space fighters? Wait, did he just say we are gonna have a hundred planets developed?.... Oh god, what did he say now?"
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on July 09, 2015, 07:18:13 am
Sounds a lot like working for Molyneux.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: deathspeed on July 09, 2015, 09:24:29 am

What'll eventually happen is, if the game releases then it'll be years in the future and the final product will be a mediocre mess that had to cut back on a lot of the promised features in order to finally release. It'll be like GTA5 Freelancer but it'll be a failure on a much larger magnitude.

FIFY.  :) 

As soon as I read about Star Citizen and saw who was behind it, I was all "Woo hoo!!"  Then 3.14159 seconds later I remembered all the promises (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freelancer_(video_game)#Development) for Freelancer.  I was hopeful that with another 15 years of technology and experience he could pull this off, yet I was skeptical at the same time.

I really want this game to succeed, for the good of the genre (I personally am not interested in an in-depth simulation as much as a fun shooter).  I don't think the genre will ever be gone for good, but I am afraid of consumer disappointment in projects like this setting it back again.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Sushi on July 09, 2015, 09:59:14 am

What'll eventually happen is, if the game releases then it'll be years in the future and the final product will be a mediocre mess that had to cut back on a lot of the promised features in order to finally release. It'll be like GTA5 Freelancer but it'll be a failure on a much larger magnitude.

FIFY.  :) 

As soon as I read about Star Citizen and saw who was behind it, I was all "Woo hoo!!"  Then 3.14159 seconds later I remembered all the promises (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freelancer_(video_game)#Development) for Freelancer.

I liked Freelancer and thought it turned out well. Not necessarily what people had been expecting, but it's a fine game in its own right.

I'm expecting Star Citizen will turn out similar. A fun game, eventually delivered well behind schedule, but not quite the game that people thought they'd be getting.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Klaustrophobia on July 09, 2015, 11:14:29 am
Not having ever really been interested in the game, what I really take away from this is a perfect example of the reasons I think kickstarters are generally a terrible idea and I will never participate in one, along with pre-orders and early access.  Hopes, dreams, and intentions don't earn my money.  Product (or service) does. 
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: headdie on July 09, 2015, 12:18:15 pm
Not having ever really been interested in the game, what I really take away from this is a perfect example of the reasons I think kickstarters are generally a terrible idea and I will never participate in one, along with pre-orders and early access.  Hopes, dreams, and intentions don't earn my money.  Product (or service) does. 

Fair enough view to have
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: deathspeed on July 09, 2015, 12:23:33 pm
I liked Freelancer and thought it turned out well. Not necessarily what people had been expecting, but it's a fine game in its own right.

I'm expecting Star Citizen will turn out similar. A fun game, eventually delivered well behind schedule, but not quite the game that people thought they'd be getting.

I agree; Freelancer is a fun game.  My only real beef with it is the deliberate lack of joystick support.  I guess it was done to try to broaden the appeal, but it seems all it did was alienate many of the genre's hardcore fans, who already had joysticks and wanted to use them.  I didn't pick up my copy until I found it in a bargain bin for $2.  When older games like FreeSpace could already be played with or without a joystick, I never understood why joystick support was removed completely.   

The other features didn't appeal to me, but I remember people being disappointed that it content was scaled back. 
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Sushi on July 09, 2015, 12:41:47 pm

I agree; Freelancer is a fun game.  My only real beef with it is the deliberate lack of joystick support.  I guess it was done to try to broaden the appeal, but it seems all it did was alienate many of the genre's hardcore fans, who already had joysticks and wanted to use them.  I didn't pick up my copy until I found it in a bargain bin for $2.  When older games like FreeSpace could already be played with or without a joystick, I never understood why joystick support was removed completely.   


Freelancer has mouse-aimed gimballed weapons AND mouse turning combined. Works well enough with a mouse, but it's fairly awkward to do with a joystick... and if you made the weapons just fire straight forward, the game gets a lot harder. I'm guessing its a design problem they never managed to solve before they needed to ship, so they erred on the side of supporting mice.

It's a design problem that hasn't gone away, either: Arena Commander has the same issue and still hasn't managed to solve it to everyone's satisfaction.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: General Battuta on July 09, 2015, 12:51:01 pm
I think the mouse-first design is why the game has lasted so long.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Sushi on July 09, 2015, 12:55:36 pm
I think the mouse-first design is why the game has lasted so long.

It really goes a long way towards making the game accessible. I'm not surprised they're trying to keep it for Star Citizen.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: CT27 on July 09, 2015, 01:05:49 pm
I actually thought Starlancer and Wing Commander 3 were decent games (Starlancer somewhat less so though).  So I'm hoping the spacesim genre doesn't die.   That said, from what I've heard I'm not crazy about SC that much in and of itself.


That being said, overall I disliked the Wing Commander movie, so I'm not a fan of everything Chris Roberts does.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on July 09, 2015, 01:13:16 pm
I'm putting my faith on No Man's Sky. Adventure, space travel, surprise and exploration.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: headdie on July 09, 2015, 01:33:59 pm
I'm putting my faith on No Man's Sky. Adventure, space travel, surprise and exploration.

They talk about No Man's Sky in the early stages of the podcast and opinions are less than ideal

Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: The E on July 09, 2015, 01:49:59 pm
I'm putting my faith on No Man's Sky. Adventure, space travel, surprise and exploration.

Limit Theory all day erry day

Also Enemy Starfighter.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Sushi on July 09, 2015, 01:57:58 pm
Pretty sure I'm going to end up buying all of them anyway, so I'm happy to root for the lot.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on July 09, 2015, 02:11:03 pm
Enemy Starfighter is the only one of those I have any anticipation for. The others have drunk too deep from the open-world Kool-ade.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Flipside on July 09, 2015, 02:27:51 pm
Thing is, people aren't Donkeys, at one point or another they are going to start asking 'so when do I actually get that carrot?'

Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: starlord on July 09, 2015, 02:40:12 pm
Guys, come on!

http://imagespaceinc.com/rogsys/

Surprised none of you mentioned this one! Seems to be a good attempt at a Newtonian space sim.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on July 09, 2015, 02:44:03 pm
I don't get what the obsession with Newtonian flight mechanics is with the current crop of space sim fans. I thought the original Frontier had pretty well proven that they're not actually fun?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: CT27 on July 09, 2015, 02:58:05 pm
I don't get what the obsession with Newtonian flight mechanics is with the current crop of space sim fans. I thought the original Frontier had pretty well proven that they're not actually fun?

I don't like them either.  I prefer 'regular' space sim physics like FS and Wing Commander.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on July 09, 2015, 03:14:14 pm
I'm putting my faith on No Man's Sky. Adventure, space travel, surprise and exploration.

Limit Theory all day erry day

Also Enemy Starfighter.

That poor Josh Parnell... he had quite the mental breakdown.

e: regarding Total Biscuit's opinion, I haven't heard that podcast, but I think I know his opinion already. If I'm willing to guess what he says there is something to the effect of "I see no gameplay there, seems boring, how does it play? Serious doubts, etc."

I share those doubts as well. But I guess that my expectations are just not the biggest stuff ever. In my mind, that's kind of a game like Minecraft meets Journey. It has a huge open world that seems mildly interesting, but still fun. I totally see myself just wandering those places about. For tight narratives, I'll have Mass Effect.

Also, given IGN's latest video, I'd say they already have a functioning build. It seemed to work perfectly fine, without performance hiccups, great visuals, everything up and running. So, I'm convinced that at least they have something that will ship, which is a lot more than I can say for Star Citizen.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Mongoose on July 09, 2015, 03:46:20 pm
Not having ever really been interested in the game, what I really take away from this is a perfect example of the reasons I think kickstarters are generally a terrible idea and I will never participate in one, along with pre-orders and early access.  Hopes, dreams, and intentions don't earn my money.  Product (or service) does.
Personally I tend to back Kickstarters based on the scale of what's being delivered.  So far I've successfully received rewards from 3 projects, and those involved dubbing/releasing an anime movie, creating an anime short, and publishing a webcomic book.  Most of the other ones I've backed are in the same vein, and even for the one or two larger ones, they have clearly-defined scopes and have updated regularly enough that I feel confident about getting the finished product.  With something as pie-in-the-sky as SC, I'd definitely wait until a nearly-finished product was on the table before committing anything to it.  It still utterly amazes me that people have dumped tens of thousands of dollars on it for virtual spaceships that haven't even been modeled yet.

As far as SC itself goes, I can't help but look at our humble little 15-year-old space sim with its 300-polygon fighters and think, "Yeah I'm good."  I don't have any real interest in the sprawling open-world types of space games; I'd much rather have a tightly-focused gameplay experience with a good story than play space stockbroker.  And when you look at what SC has displayed thus far, which largely seems to consist of how many doors you can open and close on your fully-modeled freighter, it's like...why bother?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on July 09, 2015, 04:03:46 pm
Immersion.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: starlord on July 09, 2015, 04:24:05 pm
Actually, I think some Newtonian space sims were quite close to the fun mark (this is my opinion only).

I could name a few like Terminus, I-war (both of them), Warhead and its successor mantis.
I personally happen to be curious what route rogue system will be taking.

But I certainly do have a crave for the more standard freespace like game mechanics as well.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: CP5670 on July 09, 2015, 04:38:26 pm
I wouldn't be surprised if Derek Smart joins this discussion himself sooner or later. :D

As for Freelancer, I thought it was very good. It may have been cut down from its original plans but has a great main campaign and universe to explore, and the mouse feels fine for the game's movement mechanics. Actually, Freelancer is very highly regarded on other forums I go to. I think we've been spoiled by FS around here. :p

Quote
Not having ever really been interested in the game, what I really take away from this is a perfect example of the reasons I think kickstarters are generally a terrible idea and I will never participate in one, along with pre-orders and early access.  Hopes, dreams, and intentions don't earn my money.  Product (or service) does.

I agree with this. I don't like buying effectively incomplete and/or untested products, and usually wait some time after a game is fully released to buy it.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Mongoose on July 09, 2015, 04:52:25 pm
Immersion.
Silly me, I thought immersion was defined by good writing and plotting, not being able to open a storage cabinet.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on July 09, 2015, 05:07:30 pm
I thought so too, but the Star Citizen forums taught me otherwise.  Immersion actually means simulating the flow of air over my character's eyebrows.

But seriously, on the SC forums, "immersion" is a buzzword used for pretty much everything.  People typically use it to add legitimacy to their opinions.  It's most commonly thrown around when discussing pointless things that have no impact on gameplay, like working toilets and being able to open every little hatch on your ship.

It's what "freedom" is to to American public figures: It doesn't actually mean anything, but it sounds good.


If it were me in charge, every time someone mentioned the word immersion, I'd just fill their hangar with water.  "Here, immersive hangar."

Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on July 09, 2015, 05:39:37 pm
'Immersion' as used by Star Citizens does have a pretty defined meaning, but it's really more like disjointed simulationism. Star Citizen's design is like one of those deep dream pictures that are so popular right now: it has a pretty reasonable top-level structure, but the fine detail of all the systems is a nightmarish mosaic of misplaced simulation mechanics invented because they sound good when you talk about them to the fans.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on July 09, 2015, 05:42:22 pm
But does the game correctly models the eyebrows according to different hair strenghts? That's the important question here.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Flipside on July 09, 2015, 06:24:15 pm
There must be a terrible compulsion when you have a tap that money comes out of. You just turn the tap, and out pours the money. Everything's great until the tank runs dry.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: karajorma on July 09, 2015, 07:58:27 pm
Warhead and its successor mantis.

HANG ON A SECOND. THERE"S A SEQUEL TO WARHEAD!!!!


See you guys in about a week.

I wouldn't be surprised if Derek Smart joins this discussion himself sooner or later. :D

He is a forum member. If he does, he better be treated with the respect I'd expect any other HLP member to get. Of course that goes both ways.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Mongoose on July 09, 2015, 08:08:18 pm
We're probably safe in assuming he's reading this, since his name has been mentioned more than three times. :D

Hi Derek!  How are things?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Scourge of Ages on July 09, 2015, 08:56:38 pm
Also Enemy Starfighter.


Also, I couldn't be bothered to read Smart's post(s), so have been gleaning the content from you guys here. What's the possible legal action he can take, and on what grounds? Did he contribute to the SC crowdfund, and wants to see results? That would be reasonable, but if he doesn't have a stake in it, then what?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on July 09, 2015, 09:19:59 pm
I assume the accusation is that CIG took crowdfunding money to make a product that they then didn't deliver. This won't get anywhere at this stage because they're only a few months behind schedule and development is still ongoing. Smart isn't making the complaints himself, he's working with someone who did contribute as a proxy.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on July 09, 2015, 09:57:01 pm
A good read: https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/3coq7s/trolling_derek_smart_is_fun/csxs4iv
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on July 09, 2015, 11:03:51 pm
That piece is all over the place. At first he notes that Derek's "trolling" might be the "best thing ever" to happen to SC, at the end he's reaching the obvious opposite conclusion. It is a TL DR piece. All that was needed to be said was "DEREK IS TRYING TO CREATE BAD PRESS". Christ, as if it needs any help. Even captain John - Obvious - Bain over there, right after speaking about No Man's Sky, he ends that part with a "Well, at least they have a game which is more than I can say about Star Citizen..." followed by a group trashing of that whole enterprise.

SC is going to become the buttjoke of Kickstarter. Basically, the NU-Duke Nukem Forever. Unless they wise up, which, ahah, I'm guessing not.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on July 09, 2015, 11:56:38 pm
Diehard Star Citizen fans don't respond well to people that haven't bought into the hype.  It's gotten to the point where the SC forum mods are locking threads and probating people who cast too much doubt on the project, citing their "no trolling" rules as justification.  And I don't mean stuff like "SC sucks".  I mean more negative but still civil comments like what we've seen in this thread.

And before you ask, no, it hasn't happened to me.  I don't bother actually arguing with people over there.  Waste of time.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: The E on July 10, 2015, 03:28:20 am
That piece is all over the place. At first he notes that Derek's "trolling" might be the "best thing ever" to happen to SC, at the end he's reaching the obvious opposite conclusion. It is a TL DR piece. All that was needed to be said was "DEREK IS TRYING TO CREATE BAD PRESS".

I think that first sentence is a quote from somebody else.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on July 10, 2015, 04:20:56 am
I wasn't referring to the first line.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on July 10, 2015, 10:48:56 am
Oh also while we're talking about actually good upcoming space games, Heat Signature's looking better and better with every post about it.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on August 24, 2015, 06:40:38 pm
He's going with it!

http://www.dereksmart.org/2015/08/interstellar-breach/
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Mongoose on August 24, 2015, 06:50:06 pm
*munches popcorn*
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: headdie on August 24, 2015, 07:12:27 pm
I think he might have actually snapped
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Sushi on August 24, 2015, 10:31:27 pm
Yeah his blog posts have seemed increasingly...foamy.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: NGTM-1R on August 24, 2015, 10:58:11 pm
They already gave him his money back. He's got about as much standing as a snake.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: procdrone on August 25, 2015, 10:08:02 am
But seriously though, one thing I agree with him. Star Citizen release date gets further away and away, Im starting to believe it will never be released...
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Sushi on August 25, 2015, 10:11:49 am
But seriously though, one thing I agree with him. Star Citizen release date gets further away and away, I starting to believe it will never be released...

It'll release, but they're going to have to make some hard decisions about what major features to cut out.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Turambar on August 26, 2015, 06:09:13 pm
But seriously though, one thing I agree with him. Star Citizen release date gets further away and away, I starting to believe it will never be released...

It'll release, but they're going to have to make some hard decisions about what major features to cut out.

At that time, if single-player ends up there, that's when i'll grumble about getting my money back.

not before.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: -Joshua- on August 29, 2015, 01:03:28 am
I wouldn't be surprised if Derek Smart joins this discussion himself sooner or later. :D

As for Freelancer, I thought it was very good. It may have been cut down from its original plans but has a great main campaign and universe to explore, and the mouse feels fine for the game's movement mechanics. Actually, Freelancer is very highly regarded on other forums I go to. I think we've been spoiled by FS around here. :p

Spoiled? Nah, I think Freelancer was *really* good at what it set out to be (a successor to WC: Privateer), whilst FS was also *really* good at what it set out to be  (a succesor to the X-wing series). Whether you prefer the one or the other is more down what you want out of a game.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: jr2 on August 29, 2015, 01:06:51 am
...what you want out of a game.

(http://i62.tinypic.com/2jeqree.jpg)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on August 29, 2015, 04:19:33 am
It amuses me that Freelancer only made it to release because Chris Roberts sold Digital Anvil to Microsoft (and left the company), which he did because he ran out of money 18 months into development trying to make ~the perfect game~.

Content:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuJh3h6rAX8

87 million dollars.


(http://i.giflike.com/Agxak0u.gif)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: headdie on August 29, 2015, 08:47:48 am
But seriously though, one thing I agree with him. Star Citizen release date gets further away and away, I starting to believe it will never be released...

It'll release, but they're going to have to make some hard decisions about what major features to cut out.

At that time, if single-player ends up there, that's when i'll grumble about getting my money back.

not before.

You do know the single player was part of the pitch for the crowd funding
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on September 25, 2015, 07:09:59 pm
http://www.dereksmart.org/2015/09/star-citizen-the-long-con/
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/features/14695-Star-Citizen-Controversy-Reaches-a-Boiling-Point

I'm glad this project led with the MMO idea, not the single player, or might have been inclined to actually throw money at it.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on September 26, 2015, 07:25:13 am
Everyone in the world should get an update on Hanlon's razor... too much focus on the "con artist" angle these days, when explanations are a lot more mundane and ... sad.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Klaustrophobia on September 26, 2015, 07:43:05 am
tl;dr -

The predictable outcome of crowdsourcing, and derek smart wants attention.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on September 26, 2015, 08:09:38 am
He might be wanting attention, but he's also right that the project is a total ****storm.

Or you could see it this way: Imagine how terrible the situation at SC must be that they are being pwned left and right by someone like Derek Smart.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Sushi on September 26, 2015, 10:01:00 am
Really intriguing to watch. I doubt SC will end up delivering on everything promised but (unlike Mr. Smart) I'm reasonably confident a fun game will eventually emerge.

I also want it to succeed because I think the earth would melt from Mr. Smart's smugness if he turned out to be right.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Dragon on September 26, 2015, 04:18:09 pm
Well, Freelancer was awesome. It was unfinished and didn't have half the features promised, but boy was it awesome. I'm confident that whatever Star Citizen ends up as, it'll at least be fun to play. And unlike with Freelancer, they have a way of further developing the game after the general release. Back then, patching content updates in was simply not done (expansion packs were major affairs), but with an MMO like SC, that's the usual way to go. It's unlikely to have all the features promised at "release", but they'll probably keep updating it well after that. After some years, it might end up with most of the promised stuff added in.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Lorric on September 26, 2015, 04:36:13 pm
I also want it to succeed because I think the earth would melt from Mr. Smart's smugness if he turned out to be right.

Apart from the obvious of it being a shot in the arm for space games if it succeeds, all those people who paid into it deserve it for their faith and loyalty and for sparking off the renewed production of space games by showing the World that this isn't a dead genre.

Sadly though, it's not looking good, and I hope it doesn't have a negative effect on the future production of space games, though I don't think it will as it showed the World there's money to be made and if Star Citizen does collapse, it won't change that, indeed, people might well think they can get the people who bought into Star Citizen to spend their money on them instead.

This is linked to in that Escapist article Akalabeth posted:

https://archive.is/vB6RP

It's a very interesting read, and it it's authentic shows how even with vast amounts of money and talent a project can still be ruined. It puts me in mind of EA swallowing up all those great companies and ruining them because they couldn't keep their tentacles out of the way and just let them carry on doing what made them great. Trust the talent to do what they know how to do and just get out of the way and let them work their magic.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Hades on September 26, 2015, 05:05:12 pm
Well, Freelancer was awesome. It was unfinished and didn't have half the features promised, but boy was it awesome. I'm confident that whatever Star Citizen ends up as, it'll at least be fun to play. And unlike with Freelancer, they have a way of further developing the game after the general release. Back then, patching content updates in was simply not done (expansion packs were major affairs), but with an MMO like SC, that's the usual way to go. It's unlikely to have all the features promised at "release", but they'll probably keep updating it well after that. After some years, it might end up with most of the promised stuff added in.
Freelancer wasn't awesome. It was one dimensional in writing and in gameplay, the game's art style was hilariously bad, and so poorly mismanaged Chris Roberts had to sell his company and stop being director of the game for it to release!

fakeedit: However one dimensional writing and gameplay are par the course for Chris Robert's games

realedit: However if you want what is looking to be a perfect Freelancer 2.0 in the sense of unfinished, likely sold to a publisher to finish and CR stepping down then look no further than Star Citizen
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on September 26, 2015, 05:10:34 pm
Well, Freelancer was awesome. It was unfinished and didn't have half the features promised, but boy was it awesome. I'm confident that whatever Star Citizen ends up as, it'll at least be fun to play. And unlike with Freelancer, they have a way of further developing the game after the general release. Back then, patching content updates in was simply not done (expansion packs were major affairs), but with an MMO like SC, that's the usual way to go. It's unlikely to have all the features promised at "release", but they'll probably keep updating it well after that. After some years, it might end up with most of the promised stuff added in.
Whether you think Freelancer was good or not (I don't), Chris Roberts worked on Freelancer for all of 18 months (out of 4-5 years), and it's only because he stopped working on it that the game even made it to release.  If it hadn't been for Microsoft buying his company and forcing him off the project, Digital Anvil would have gone bankrupt and the game would have gone nowhere.  He was not responsible for Freelancer, and I don't get how his name is associated with it, except as a way to show how he's making the same mistakes with SC.

The last game CR released was Starlancer, and it was not a good game.

realedit: However if you want what is looking to be a perfect Freelancer 2.0 in the sense of unfinished, likely sold to a publisher to finish and CR stepping down then look no further than Star Citizen
No publisher is going to save Star Citizen.  No publisher would ever touch a game that potentially has $90M in liabilities.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Mikes on September 27, 2015, 03:10:11 am
Well, Freelancer was awesome. It was unfinished and didn't have half the features promised, but boy was it awesome. I'm confident that whatever Star Citizen ends up as, it'll at least be fun to play. And unlike with Freelancer, they have a way of further developing the game after the general release. Back then, patching content updates in was simply not done (expansion packs were major affairs), but with an MMO like SC, that's the usual way to go. It's unlikely to have all the features promised at "release", but they'll probably keep updating it well after that. After some years, it might end up with most of the promised stuff added in.
Whether you think Freelancer was good or not (I don't), Chris Roberts worked on Freelancer for all of 18 months (out of 4-5 years), and it's only because he stopped working on it that the game even made it to release.  If it hadn't been for Microsoft buying his company and forcing him off the project, Digital Anvil would have gone bankrupt and the game would have gone nowhere.  He was not responsible for Freelancer, and I don't get how his name is associated with it, except as a way to show how he's making the same mistakes with SC.

The last game CR released was Starlancer, and it was not a good game.

realedit: However if you want what is looking to be a perfect Freelancer 2.0 in the sense of unfinished, likely sold to a publisher to finish and CR stepping down then look no further than Star Citizen
No publisher is going to save Star Citizen.  No publisher would ever touch a game that potentially has $90M in liabilities.

Be aware that there is a point where hate starts to not look serious, but outright hilarious to anyone who reads it, especially if the quoted "facts" do not match with reality.

(Starlancer came way before Freelancer and arguably neither was half bad.)

Peace?


Don't take me wrong... I understand people being wary or sceptic and I wouldn't even call myself all THAT optimistic towards Star Citizen myself at this point.... but still ... seriously? ;-)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on September 27, 2015, 03:37:50 am
Be aware that there is a point where hate starts to not look serious, but outright hilarious to anyone who reads it, especially if the quoted "facts" do not match with reality.

(Starlancer came way before Freelancer and arguably neither was half bad.)

Peace?


Don't take me wrong... I understand people being wary or sceptic and I wouldn't even call myself all THAT optimistic towards Star Citizen myself at this point.... but still ... seriously? ;-)
Yes, Starlancer came before Freelancer.  When did I say otherwise?  I said it's the last game CR released, which is true because he didn't release Freelancer.  He was forced off the dev team by Microsoft as part of the deal for them buying Digital Anvil in 2000, probably because his management nearly ran his company into the ground.  This isn't hate, it's literally what happened.

I don't like Freelancer, but I can see why someone might like it (especially since it's been pretty significantly modded). 

On the other hand, Starlancer wasn't half bad, it was all bad .  The AI was beyond ****, the missions were typical CR fare (ie bad), and the story managed to be more trite and cliched than Wing Commander's (without having Wing Commander's decent cast of characters).  I do not understand how anyone can defend it.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Hades on September 27, 2015, 03:39:37 am
On the other hand, Starlancer wasn't half bad, it was all bad .  The AI was beyond ****, the missions were typical CR fare (ie bad), and te story managed to be more trite and cliched than Wing Commander's.  I do not understand how anyone can defend it.
People are willing to defend anything you know, such as monarchy or WW2 German lunchbox tanks.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on September 27, 2015, 03:45:16 am
On the other hand, Starlancer wasn't half bad, it was all bad .  The AI was beyond ****, the missions were typical CR fare (ie bad), and te story managed to be more trite and cliched than Wing Commander's.  I do not understand how anyone can defend it.
People are willing to defend anything you know, such as monarchy or WW2 German lunchbox tanks.
The correct term is Nazi ****boxes.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Deathsnake on September 27, 2015, 03:46:07 am
Nope. The last Chris Roberts Game was Wing Commander 4. On Starlancer his Brother has the full Control of the game. Chris Name just was on the cover.

Freelancer was in his mind a complete different game then the Release Version. Freelancer should have a onboard Computer with Updates you can buy and fly from System to System. If an enemy Encounter you have several tactics on you Computer and you just aiming with the mouse on hardpoints to take out weapons, engine and so on.

You could call it Open-World-Rail-Space-Combat-Simulation. We all know, this is maybe even today not possible or hard to make. For 1999 impossible. 2001 he left Anvil and goes to Hollywood. He even does not help the Freelancer Team as the press have written.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Scotty on September 27, 2015, 03:48:09 am
Freelancer was in his mind a complete different game then the Release Version.

This is literally the problem we've been pointing out for the entire discussion.  He has no concept of when to stop, and that ruins games he works on.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on September 27, 2015, 03:59:18 am
Nope. The last Chris Roberts Game was Wing Commander 4. On Starlancer his Brother has the full Control of the game. Chris Name just was on the cover.
Oh, really?  I thought that was just Privateer 2.  Ok, well, on one hand, Erin is pretty good about actually releasing games.  On the other hand, it doesn't bode well for SQ42 in terms of quality.

And how Foundry 42 is making a singleplayer campaign when CIG haven't figured out a way to make their base gameplay fun is beyond me.

Quote
Freelancer was in his mind a complete different game then the Release Version. Freelancer should have a onboard Computer with Updates you can buy and fly from System to System. If an enemy Encounter you have several tactics on you Computer and you just aiming with the mouse on hardpoints to take out weapons, engine and so on.

You could call it Open-World-Rail-Space-Combat-Simulation. We all know, this is maybe even today not possible or hard to make. For 1999 impossible. 2001 he left Anvil and goes to Hollywood. He even does not help the Freelancer Team as the press have written.
  That's right, the Freelancer in his mind was impossible for the time.  But he didn't realize that, and he nearly bankrupted his company trying to make it.  It's becoming increasingly obvious to me that he's making the same mistakes again.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Mikes on September 27, 2015, 05:45:55 am
Nope. The last Chris Roberts Game was Wing Commander 4. On Starlancer his Brother has the full Control of the game. Chris Name just was on the cover.
Oh, really?  I thought that was just Privateer 2.  Ok, well, on one hand, Erin is pretty good about actually releasing games.  On the other hand, it doesn't bode well for SQ42 in terms of quality.

And how Foundry 42 is making a singleplayer campaign when CIG haven't figured out a way to make their base gameplay fun is beyond me.

Quote
Freelancer was in his mind a complete different game then the Release Version. Freelancer should have a onboard Computer with Updates you can buy and fly from System to System. If an enemy Encounter you have several tactics on you Computer and you just aiming with the mouse on hardpoints to take out weapons, engine and so on.

You could call it Open-World-Rail-Space-Combat-Simulation. We all know, this is maybe even today not possible or hard to make. For 1999 impossible. 2001 he left Anvil and goes to Hollywood. He even does not help the Freelancer Team as the press have written.
  That's right, the Freelancer in his mind was impossible for the time.  But he didn't realize that, and he nearly bankrupted his company trying to make it.  It's becoming increasingly obvious to me that he's making the same mistakes again.

And all I am saying is that I find it funny when people are all so sure about how a project will turn out before the fact ... and pretend to know exactly who is repeating what mistakes and what not ...

I believe the term is "doomsaying". And yes there is the opposite, "fanboism", i believe, too. The Star Citizen forums are a giant example of what happens when huge numbers of either team meet to battle it out and it' ain't pretty LOL.

Personally... I find either equally silly and/or idiotic at times. (And - if I had any say over it - would at least prefer that this special brand of idiocy would stay contained within the Star Citizen forums.)



We gonna see what happens to Star Citizen, when it happens, or doesn't, ain't we?

(If no meteroite hits the earth or WW3 starts and we all gonna die, ... how s that for doomsaying? lol)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on September 27, 2015, 06:24:17 am
There's this little thing humans are able to do.  We can look at past events, look at how and why they happened, and then use that knowledge to find similar patterns and make educated predictions about the future.  No really, humans can do this.

I could be wrong, but judging by what CIG have released, what they've promised, the information they've provided, and CR's past attempt to make a game like this, I don't think I am.  This isn't an unfounded opinion.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on September 27, 2015, 09:06:07 am
Mikes, you're right in saying that no one here really knows what the future is going to be exactly, so it might be the case that indeed the game will proceed well.

But, Aesaar is absolutely right too: we just have too many signs that say otherwise. His comment on how they are making the single player campaign without having nailed a fun gameplay first is astounding... it's facepalmland. Everywhere I see companies making, firstly, huge efforts in getting the gameplay right, and just then try to build a game on top of that, and only at the end will the assets come forth. All signs point to a disaster in the making, being led by someone who should be best described by having the true "reality distortion bubble" that Jobs was famous for (the difference was, Jobs delivered).
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on September 28, 2015, 02:50:17 pm
And all I am saying is that I find it funny when people are all so sure about how a project will turn out before the fact ... and pretend to know exactly who is repeating what mistakes and what not ...

Personally I think the biggest thing to consider when analyzing a developer is his track record.

If this was a Peter Molyneux game for example, would more people consider the lofty goals to be a bit far-fetched? Would there be more doom saying?

So if Robert's last game sunk his company, and he hasn't done anything in 10-14 years since then, and his new game is the same as his old game only more ambitious in every respect then isn't there legitimate cause for concern?

Similarly people complain when for example a single player game has a tacked-on multiplayer component, they say why spend time on this when you could be improving the main game? Yet Star Citizen for example has basically added on an entirely new game with the FPS aspect.  Which is quite an ironic turn of events when you think about it considering the original pitch was essentially championing the space sim and yet the final game is tacking on an FPS.  Would people applaud a Freespace 3 which puts half its budget into a cover-based shooter like Gears of War?

The FPS module reminds me of another game actually, Daikatana. When John Romero split from iD his plan for Daikatana was all kinds of ambitious.  But later on, having missed his first deadline he got a look at Quake 1 and saw that Carmack had added lighting effects to projectiles and other new tech, so Romero was like "**** I need to improve the game and get that lighting in there!" and the game got delayed, people quit, etcetera and so forth.

Now with Star Citizen, as I understand it Star Marine was announced at PAX 2014.  Is it possible that Roberts saw say No Man's Sky in 2013, saw a man walk around on a planet, get into a ship, fly into a space battle and land on another planet and suddenly think "**** I need to improve the game and get FPS in there!".  Maybe the time line doesn't quite match up but either way it seems by going for the FPS component the game has nearly doubled in scope. I know there was talk of walking around your ship and getting into your hangar and so forth, but if you're going to have planetary fights as well that is going to require a lot of environmental and technical work.

Something to be said for defining a scope and sticking to it.

Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Dragon on September 28, 2015, 10:31:17 pm
Actually, once you have the "walking around your ship" part done, I would suspect that a full FPS expansion would be more a matter of adding assets. Remember that this component was supposed to be part of the game from the start. Star Citizen's scope is enormous, so I'd guess a lot of it would have to be highly modular, with a powerful scripting system capable of handling multitude of situations. If the weapons code can be used to handle character weapons as well as ship based ones and planetary surfaces you fly over are detailed enough not to look bad from first person, then you can have the FPS component with relatively little additional features (basically boils down to enabling characters to have and use weapons). Ultimately, once you can walk around and shoot, what more is there to it? An FPS expansion was at some point even planned for FS2Open, dunno what became of that (probably nobody actually cared enough to do it).

The biggest problem would be getting the AI to work with the FPS component. This can't be carried over from spaceflight and is a very complex problem. Even games like ArmA suffer from AI occasionally being dumb as a brick and not particularly humanlike. Making a game in which people can walk around and shoot each other is a lot easier than making one in which one person can walk around and shoot at AIs (why do you think so many games go multiplayer-only? You need neither AI nor mission writing). I'd fully expect the FPS component to be multiplayer-only for a long time.

I believe that Roberts can pull this off if he plays this smart. He has money and a huge fanbase. Some of the fans can make good developers (or even already be good developers), while being passionate and unlikely to just get bored and quit. He can afford a large team. "Early Access"-style releases also seem to help keep the devs interested. If it doesn't get abandoned (unlikely, from what I've seen) or doomed by bad management (a real danger that killed many large projects), I think it can succeed. Development will likely take ages, though.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on September 29, 2015, 12:50:23 am
Actually, once you have the "walking around your ship" part done, I would suspect that a full FPS expansion would be more a matter of adding assets. Remember that this component was supposed to be part of the game from the start. Star Citizen's scope is enormous, so I'd guess a lot of it would have to be highly modular, with a powerful scripting system capable of handling multitude of situations. If the weapons code can be used to handle character weapons as well as ship based ones and planetary surfaces you fly over are detailed enough not to look bad from first person, then you can have the FPS component with relatively little additional features (basically boils down to enabling characters to have and use weapons). Ultimately, once you can walk around and shoot, what more is there to it? An FPS expansion was at some point even planned for FS2Open, dunno what became of that (probably nobody actually cared enough to do it).

Um, two things.

I would think there would be a world of difference in terms of assets and fidelity for a planet which you can fly over and a planet which you can walk upon.  Further are there weather effects? Different gravity types? Destructable terrain? Is the terrain procedural? Are the structures? What about fluids? If they're using an engine that will account for some of that, but I mean the biggest thing is that you're increasing a planet's LOD by 2-3 levels (in freespace terms).

For the FPS aspect. I'm not a game dev but I would suspect there's a heck of lot more going into an FPS than simply walking and shooting.  The gunplay differences between say Halo, COD and Battlefield are immense and are players going to want to play a bare bones FPS compared to one of these dedicated games?  What about hit detection? Latency? Is there bullet penetration? Is there zero-g corridor combat and if so how does the player manoeuvre in the environment?

And what about progression? Having FPS and Starship combat essentially creates two progression trees for ships and equipment. How to balance all of that out and make it interesting and engaging? How to balance ship purchases vs personal combat purchases? A starship should be more expensive than a kit of the best personal equipment.

By comparison look at Halo 4, a big budget AAA microsoft-backed shooter which was a dedicated FPS with a tacked on starship section. Great shooter but fairly mediocre starship combat. If a game this big can achieve only as much as that, how can a brand new indie studio achieve so much more?

Yes it's possible that the game can be finished if Roberts learned enough management from the previous set of games.   Specifically if his apparently bad management and over ambition is outweighed by the available money. Though personally I find the blatant whale hunting to be rather disreputable.  Asking players to pay 2700 USD for a fleet pack is as worse as any free to play garbage and makes some EA's previous transgressions look saintly.  And if they're hunting for whale players before the game is even out it casts a pretty poor light on the spirit  of the game to come in my opinion.

And then on the side there's also the danger that games like No Man's Sky and Elite Dangerous could introduce gameplay that Roberts feels must be put into Star Citizen, thereby expanding the scope even further. 
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: NGTM-1R on September 29, 2015, 02:15:21 am
Actually, once you have the "walking around your ship" part done, I would suspect that a full FPS expansion would be more a matter of adding assets.

This is not an insignificant obstacle. Witness the fact EVE Online was unable to overcome it.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: The E on September 29, 2015, 02:44:47 am
And then on the side there's also the danger that games like No Man's Sky and Elite Dangerous could introduce gameplay that Roberts feels must be put into Star Citizen, thereby expanding the scope even further. 

This is already happening, to an extent. Elite's next update, Horizons, will introduce a character creator, planetside gameplay and multicrew ships. Neither of which is as ambitious as what SC is planning (there doesn't seem to be anything even remotely resembling FPS gameplay in there, for example), but unlike CIG, Frontier has a working base game and a design team that has an idea of what they're doing.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on September 29, 2015, 04:01:40 am
Yeah it looks like the ED team is being a lot more intelligent on their managing the developing of their game.

It must suck to slowly watch your dream game being done by every other developer than yourself, while you got the biggest paycheck and everyone paying attention to you.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: TrashMan on September 29, 2015, 10:16:47 am
The last game CR released was Starlancer, and it was not a good game.

It was a good game.


Quote
On the other hand, Starlancer wasn't half bad, it was all bad .  The AI was beyond ****, the missions were typical CR fare (ie bad), and the story managed to be more trite and cliched than Wing Commander's (without having Wing Commander's decent cast of characters).  I do not understand how anyone can defend it.

you have poor judgment.

The gameplay was fine, the graphics were nice, the atmosphere was there.
The story was nothing to write home about, but so few are.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Falcon on September 29, 2015, 07:27:07 pm
Have to wonder if crowd funding existed in 90's it would have been the same thing with Freelancer.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Scotty on September 29, 2015, 09:50:12 pm
The last game CR released was Starlancer, and it was not a good game.

It was a good game.


Quote
On the other hand, Starlancer wasn't half bad, it was all bad .  The AI was beyond ****, the missions were typical CR fare (ie bad), and the story managed to be more trite and cliched than Wing Commander's (without having Wing Commander's decent cast of characters).  I do not understand how anyone can defend it.

you have poor judgment.

The gameplay was fine, the graphics were nice, the atmosphere was there.
The story was nothing to write home about, but so few are.

Posts like this make me wish it wasn't an abuse of moderator power to warn people for having poor taste and wrong opinions.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on September 30, 2015, 05:39:36 am
you have poor judgment.
You have poor taste.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Dragon on September 30, 2015, 05:59:33 am
And how can you tell you are not the one with poor taste here? :) Maybe in a decade, Starlancer will be rediscovered and hailed as a refined classic of videogame writing (don't worry if it doesn't have deeped meanings, they'll find some to tack on)? :)

I don't know about Starlancer, having never got around to playing it (gotta finally find that disk...), but I know Roberts' games are enjoyable if you can appreciate his style. He's no Dostoyewsky, sure, but both Wing Commander and Freelancer were fun experiences. That a story isn't fit to be analyzed in school (or in academia) doesn't mean it's not worth reading.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on September 30, 2015, 06:09:00 am
i agree that chris roberts' writing is being sold short by elitists like aesaar, for instance if you examine the backstory to star citizen closely you can pick up hints that it's actually a subtle metaphor for the fall of the roman empire
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on September 30, 2015, 06:44:28 am
Are you suggesting Star Citizen is smart enough for its writing that it's giving everyone of us subtle hints of its own impending implosion?

Regardless, that's not a signal of good writing, it seems quite bland and unoriginal. Even the Napoleon imperator thingy reeks of cheesy ****.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on September 30, 2015, 08:21:31 am
Its not even subtle, Vanduul = Vandals. I bet there will be a sack of Earth or Terra by the Vanduul, either in Squadron 42 campaign or later on.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on September 30, 2015, 09:36:55 am
Actually, once you have the "walking around your ship" part done, I would suspect that a full FPS expansion would be more a matter of adding assets.

This is not an insignificant obstacle. Witness the fact EVE Online was unable to overcome it.

EVE Online Walking in stations is still a small room after what, 10 years of development?. So I dont think they ever made any serious effort to overcome the obstacles before giving up on it. They are content with point and click gameplay. On the other hand, first person perspective is a core feature of SC. FPS gameplay in SC will be merely an expansion of something that is already an important part of the game. And I think with $90 million in funds, some expansion of features is warranted.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: -Joshua- on September 30, 2015, 09:56:52 am
Posts like this make me wish it wasn't an abuse of moderator power to warn people for having poor tnd wrong opinions.

Frame it as you cracking down on people who are aggressively pushing their own opinions in an attempt to troll others :p
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: GhylTarvoke on September 30, 2015, 11:19:47 am
I haven't played Starlancer, and I know very little about Freelancer's development, but I think Freelancer is a fine game. Even with the dated graphics, the environments are often beautiful.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: IronBeer on September 30, 2015, 11:38:43 am
I have an eternal thirst for open-world space games.

In the past, this void was filled by, in chronological order: Battlezone 1998 (not because hovertanks but because other planets), retail FS1, Starlancer, Freelancer, EVE, FSO, X3, KSP, and now Elite Dangerous.

I bought into the Star Citizen kickstarter.... what, was it 2013 still? I haven't been closely following the dev cycle, but what I've been reading and hearing on the "idea" front has not been lining up with where development has actually gone. A couple months ago, I could load up the hangar module and play with my pledge Aurora, but not actually do anything. Not long after that, E:D backers could actually go out and sail the black and do things.

Consider me a fallen Chris Roberts fan. I played the **** out of Freelancer; for all its flaws, I still got a big kick out of just cruising space and causing trouble. Starlancer struck me as markedly flawed even when I was a kid, but I had limited access to new games and it let me explode things in space. Watching SC's development shamble forward against numerous competitors while showing no meaningful milestones of its own has drained any confidence I may have had. (Preemptive: step off, I'm not talking arena commander, I'm talking about the core gameplay experience of going out into open space and, you know, *being* a Citizen of the Stars.)

I know I'm not breaking new ground here, but I wanted to add another perspective to this conversation. A perspective that really tries hard to find the best in things and really tries to have fun in spite of flaws. Christ Roberts' fumbling is making me seriously consider rescinding my backing, if I can. Maybe I can upload a video of me burning my citizen card...

While Christ Roberts blows millions of dollars on deciding how impactful a Player-Character's blinking needs to be on gameplay, I'll be busy Elite-ing it up, hurling Kerbals at distant worlds, or plowing through FSO's endearing bugs and quirks. Thus sprach IronBeer.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Ghostavo on September 30, 2015, 12:26:38 pm
This (http://www.develop-online.net/news/star-citizen-single-player-will-have-top-level-movie-cast/0211861) might explain where a large sum of the money is going to...
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on September 30, 2015, 12:29:21 pm
Yep, we were just making fun of that on IRC. If CR wants to make games as a substitute for his failed film career he should just found a studio with David Cage.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Falcon on September 30, 2015, 01:52:54 pm
CR would have been better off just focusing on SQ42. I would have just liked single player space sim with a good story like Freespace. It not like he couldn't have done a second crowd funding campaign to add multiplayer if SQ42 was successful.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Dragon on September 30, 2015, 05:17:19 pm
Agreed. Especially with all-star cast that he promises. Really, say what you will about WC3, but you can't deny its FMVs were excellent. They even had friggin' Luke Skywalker. :) This continued into WC4 and (to a somewhat lesser extent) WCP. Squadron 42 should be the focus, with "old-timey" FMVs (made with modern filming technology, of course), story as good as that of WC4 and pretty in-game graphics. Remember the original Wing Commander 3 CDs that were labeled "Origin Interactive Movie"? :) That's what I would aim at.

I really hope that all those famous actors will be actually seen in cutscenes, instead of just providing voiceovers. FMVs gone out of fashion except for C&C series, but maybe its time to bring them back.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on September 30, 2015, 07:44:32 pm
I really hope that all those famous actors will be actually seen in cutscenes, instead of just providing voiceovers. FMVs gone out of fashion except for C&C series, but maybe its time to bring them back.

Tex Murphy already did:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fubvpa5w0ps
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on September 30, 2015, 08:48:12 pm
And how can you tell you are not the one with poor taste here? :) Maybe in a decade, Starlancer will be rediscovered and hailed as a refined classic of videogame writing (don't worry if it doesn't have deeped meanings, they'll find some to tack on)? :)
Because by this point, Trashman is pretty much HLP's meme for bad taste, and he never ceases to demonstrate how warranted that reputation is.

As for you?  Well, you said this and actually meant it:
It's the amount of ways you can misinterpret a work times its length. It's good for measuring how much time a given work can sustain a literature major. Generations of them made a living off "analyzing" such classics such as "War and Peace", for which this value is highest. :) Scales linearly with length and complexity, so FS2 and Planetscape: Torment are good candidates, while more straightforward (and more enjoyable) works such as WC3 rank low.
It singlehandedly invalidates your opinion regarding creative writing the same way being a young-earth creationist would invalidate your opinion on evolution.  I've never met anyone who takes pride in their ignorance the way you do.  It genuinely astounds me.

Starlancer's story is a lazy, cliched transposition of the WW2 Pacific theater (IN SPACE!) while treading no new ground and managing to say absolutely nothing interesting with its narrative.  TBH, that describes WC as well, but WC, for all its faults, at least had ok characters. Starlancer doesn't even have that.  It's a boring story coupled with endless escort missions and four-point patrols.  It takes the worst bits of CR games and none of the decent bits.

i agree that chris roberts' writing is being sold short by elitists like aesaar, for instance if you examine the backstory to star citizen closely you can pick up hints that it's actually a subtle metaphor for the fall of the roman empire
I love how no one recognized PH's sarcasm here.


Agreed. Especially with all-star cast that he promises. Really, say what you will about WC3, but you can't deny its FMVs were excellent. They even had friggin' Luke Skywalker. :) This continued into WC4 and (to a somewhat lesser extent) WCP. Squadron 42 should be the focus, with "old-timey" FMVs (made with modern filming technology, of course), story as good as that of WC4 and pretty in-game graphics. Remember the original Wing Commander 3 CDs that were labeled "Origin Interactive Movie"? :) That's what I would aim at.

I really hope that all those famous actors will be actually seen in cutscenes, instead of just providing voiceovers. FMVs gone out of fashion except for C&C series, but maybe its time to bring them back.
Nope, pretty sure CR already said SQ42 is mocap the whole way.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: The E on October 01, 2015, 02:04:12 am
Yeah, going full FMV on cutscenes is a seriously stupid thing to do these days. Even if you spend millions of dollars on it, the best you can hope for is some sort of Star Wars Prequel level thing that looks kinda phony and out of place; Modern motion/performance capture rigs are so good at reading the actor's performances and translating them into mocap data which can then be used completely in-engine that the costs associated with doing FMVs in terms of costume and prop design is just not worth it.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Dragon on October 01, 2015, 06:02:39 am
As for you?  Well, you said this and actually meant it:
It's the amount of ways you can misinterpret a work times its length. It's good for measuring how much time a given work can sustain a literature major. Generations of them made a living off "analyzing" such classics such as "War and Peace", for which this value is highest. :) Scales linearly with length and complexity, so FS2 and Planetscape: Torment are good candidates, while more straightforward (and more enjoyable) works such as WC3 rank low.
It singlehandedly invalidates your opinion regarding creative writing the same way being a young-earth creationist would invalidate your opinion on evolution.  I've never met anyone who takes pride in their ignorance the way you do.  It genuinely astounds me.
Here's where you're wrong. I didn't mean it. You even quoted a smiley I put on into of this comment! What you quote is a sarcastic jab at people like you literary critics who consider everything that is not a bizarre philosophical tract to be utter crap (I do not believe I got a chance of responding to that properly in that thread). Being deep and thoughtful is fine, but it doesn't mean a work is well written (i.e. actually fun to read). In retrospect, I probably should have gone ahead with my original idea of defining literary value as the amount of Jesuses in purgatory that you can find in a given work, but I didn't want to count on you frequenting TVTropes. People who grade books on "literary value" are the people who miss out on a lot of genuinely fun reads.
Yeah, going full FMV on cutscenes is a seriously stupid thing to do these days. Even if you spend millions of dollars on it, the best you can hope for is some sort of Star Wars Prequel level thing that looks kinda phony and out of place; Modern motion/performance capture rigs are so good at reading the actor's performances and translating them into mocap data which can then be used completely in-engine that the costs associated with doing FMVs in terms of costume and prop design is just not worth it.
I haven't seen a single in-engine cutscene that would truly capture actor's expressions, motion and "acting" in general (though some come close). SW prequels had a somewhat silly plot and way overdone FX, but good actors can get you a good FMV. Anything that would require flashy FX should be done in-engine anyway, with player actively participating, IMO. Actors should be used where we see the characters interact and emote.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 01, 2015, 06:04:50 am
This thread should be renamed to something like "Star Citizen: This Week in Stupid", where we discuss the latest facepalms and laugh at them.

I mean, I don't like to see money burn, but at least I can laugh at it. And no, I didn't recognize PH's sarcasm. He's refined his art. (although I'm smugly smiling at Aesaar's jab at our lack of sarcasm detectors working properly next to Dragon's reply above).
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: The E on October 01, 2015, 06:28:12 am
Yeah, going full FMV on cutscenes is a seriously stupid thing to do these days. Even if you spend millions of dollars on it, the best you can hope for is some sort of Star Wars Prequel level thing that looks kinda phony and out of place; Modern motion/performance capture rigs are so good at reading the actor's performances and translating them into mocap data which can then be used completely in-engine that the costs associated with doing FMVs in terms of costume and prop design is just not worth it.
I haven't seen a single in-engine cutscene that would capture actor's expressions, motion and "acting" in general. SW prequels had a somewhat silly plot and way overdone FX, but good actors can get you a good FMV. FX should be done in-engine.

I'll wave Crysis 3 in your face then. And The Last Of Us, Uncharted, GTA 5, MGS 5, Red Dead Redemption quite a few other titles. The problem FMVs have, always have had and always will have is that the actors will always be disconnected from the surroundings they're bluescreened into. If you keep everything in-engine (even if you use the engine and in-game assets to prerecord it), you get a cohesiveness that is far more valuable to the overall feeling of a game than tiny nuances of an actors' performance ever could be.

See here:



Now, compare those cutscenes, which all integrate very seamlessly into their respective games and which do not drag you out of the flow of the game's storytelling because suddenly everyone's gone all real human, with this:

(http://core0.staticworld.net/images/article/2014/08/wingcommander3_2-100367937-orig.jpg)

See how the lighting on Hamill, even in this static shot, seems disconnected from the background?
Sure, we could do this better today. But consider this: SC is supposed to be a seamless experience, or at least as seamless as they can manage. The NPCs you're going to interact with will all be 3D modelled. Everything will run through CryEngine's lighting model. Adding a few NPCs which are FMV limits everything. You can, for example, never show them actually interacting with you, or else it would become immediately apparent that you're not as real as they are. You can never put them into a 3D space that the player can navigate.

Now, if you're just doing a remake of Wing Commander 3, with static screens playing the role of the ship you're supposedly living and working on, sure, do FMVs. The limitations of that form won't be as relevant there. But for Star Citizen, that is not going to work. Think about it: Here's Star Citizen's crown jewel, Squadron 42. Play as an intrepid space pilot, an elite fighter of the Empire ... who can never move around on the carrier. Who is apparently carted around to stand in a few select places and forced to look in one direction while people talk at him.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on October 01, 2015, 09:51:07 am
Here's where you're wrong. I didn't mean it. You even quoted a smiley I put on into of this comment! What you quote is a sarcastic jab at people like you literary critics who consider everything that is not a bizarre philosophical tract to be utter crap (I do not believe I got a chance of responding to that properly in that thread). Being deep and thoughtful is fine, but it doesn't mean a work is well written (i.e. actually fun to read). In retrospect, I probably should have gone ahead with my original idea of defining literary value as the amount of Jesuses in purgatory that you can find in a given work, but I didn't want to count on you frequenting TVTropes. People who grade books on "literary value" are the people who miss out on a lot of genuinely fun reads.
Here's what you don't get: just because I can differentiate between a good story and one that's fun but mindless doesn't mean I can't appreciate the latter.  It isn't a black-and-white "the only stories worth reading/watching/playing are the ones that are smart and able to actually say interesting things about the themes they address".  Hell, I genuinely like WH40k. 

I draw the line when the story happens to be boring, predictable, and poorly written, and that's where you'll see **** like Starcraft 2 and Starlancer, and to a lesser extent, the Wing Commander games.  At least the Wing Commander games were among the first to handle storytelling in a modern manner, but Starlancer came after Freespace 2 and the Star Wars sims and had no such excuse for its mediocrity.  Neither did Freelancer, but at least it did something new in places that weren't story.

I know what you meant with the blurb I quoted.  I remember that thread.  And your attitude there and here are exactly why I say that the pride you take in your ignorance is something I'm powerless to understand.

This thread should be renamed to something like "Star Citizen: This Week in Stupid", where we discuss the latest facepalms and laugh at them.

I mean, I don't like to see money burn, but at least I can laugh at it. And no, I didn't recognize PH's sarcasm. He's refined his art. (although I'm smugly smiling at Aesaar's jab at our lack of sarcasm detectors working properly next to Dragon's reply above).
I picked up on it because mocking SC is a common group activity in #bp, and PH is as merciless as I am.  He also enjoys taunting me into ranting about how SC is a really ****ty look at the fall of the Roman Empire because I've got a history degree and that's my area of expertise.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 01, 2015, 11:16:11 am
I think we can update my suggestion at the thread's name to "dally ****storms"

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/video-games/features/14715-CIG-Employees-Talk-Star-Citizen-and-the-State-of-the-Company

****ing hell. Just. ****ing. Hell. I kinda predicted here that this was the environment they were in, but I had no idea of how much.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Sushi on October 01, 2015, 12:20:23 pm
To be fair, disgruntled employees are hardly an unbiased source of information.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 01, 2015, 12:35:59 pm
No it isn't, but the article does contain other information like funding a crowd source platform, teams quitting, alleged misdirection of funds, etcetera. That's the more interesting side of things.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on October 01, 2015, 12:47:46 pm
CR's response is to assert that everyone involved is actually Derek Smart and then proceed with the most redundant character assassination in gaming history. (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/14979-Chairmans-Response-To-The-Escapist)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Falcon on October 01, 2015, 01:08:36 pm
Lot of damage being done to RSI. This is bad news for them because any prospective backers will back away as far as they can from this game if there is the slightest doubt it'll ever be released or there's hints that the company isn't doing well.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 01, 2015, 01:13:44 pm
Assassinating Derek Smart's character isn't hard to do though...

He does provide the answers to the accusations. That's important. Here's one tidbit that was quite jarring to me though:

Quote
We feel like we’ve made huge strides and have completed a good portion of the underlying technology that will enable us to make Star Citizen the game that your sources say can’t be made.

"have completed... a *GOOD PORTION* of the underlying technology ... that *WILL* enable us to make SC..."
Amazing. Incredible. Fall 2015 and they still don't have the "underlying technology" that enables them to make the ****ing game. Jesus ****ing Christ.


Lastly... the guy admits he spent eight hours writing this screed. He's sperging.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on October 01, 2015, 01:23:55 pm
Assassinating Derek Smart's character isn't hard to do though...

He does provide the answers to the accusations. That's important. Here's one tidbit that was quite jarring to me though:

Quote
We feel like we’ve made huge strides and have completed a good portion of the underlying technology that will enable us to make Star Citizen the game that your sources say can’t be made.

"have completed... a *GOOD PORTION* of the underlying technology ... that *WILL* enable us to make SC..."
Amazing. Incredible. Fall 2015 and they still don't have the "underlying technology" that enables them to make the ****ing game. Jesus ****ing Christ.

They have been pretty clear that the Large World engine is not ready for prime time yet, I dont think thats exactly news.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 01, 2015, 01:26:32 pm
Yes, that is true, I think it was mentioned here as well, it was just "official news" to me, because I hadn't heard it before, officially. It's crazy to me that CR would even admit to it.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 01, 2015, 01:42:43 pm
Chris Roberts responded to the escapist and the article has been updated:
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/14979-Chairmans-Response-To-The-Escapist

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/video-games/features/14715-CIG-Employees-Talk-Star-Citizen-and-the-State-of-the-Company?utm_source=latest&utm_medium=index_carousel&utm_campaign=all
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Sushi on October 01, 2015, 01:54:51 pm
Yikes, seems that really got to him.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on October 01, 2015, 01:58:00 pm
And it shouldn't have. If you're a legendary game developer forging a new path in the industry, the ravings of a man who's been known as a clown since the Usenet era should be the easiest thing in the world to dismiss. And yet here Roberts is, trading personal insults and skirting around the legally-actionable accusations against his company.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on October 01, 2015, 01:58:30 pm
because mocking SC is a common group activity in #bp
Funny, we do this in #wod-dev as well. It's a pretty fun activity~ 
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: -Joshua- on October 01, 2015, 02:03:03 pm
And it shouldn't have. If you're a legendary game developer forging a new path in the industry, the ravings of a man who's been known as a clown since the Usenet era should be the easiest thing in the world to dismiss. And yet here Roberts is, trading personal insults and skirting around the legally-actionable accusations against his company.

On the other hand, seeing the escapist publish the ravings of said clown would be enough to piss me off if it was aimed at me. Not because of Smart, but because the Escapist is still a website people read.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 01, 2015, 02:04:09 pm
Except the article isn't basing its claims on Derek. You know, details...
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 01, 2015, 02:11:24 pm
Yes this is a second article which draws its sources from 5 or more alleged employees and ex-employees. The Derek smart article was the previous one and this new information has come to their attention because of it.
Funnily enough people are still complaining about derek smart in the comments even though it doesn't mention him at all
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: -Joshua- on October 01, 2015, 02:13:05 pm
Except the article isn't basing its claims on Derek. You know, details...

Well, Chris Roberts seems to think they do.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Falcon on October 01, 2015, 02:18:07 pm
Should have just let a PR person handle it, what is CR doing?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Sushi on October 01, 2015, 02:22:00 pm
Should have just let a PR person handle it, what is CR doing?

Letting his emotions get the better of his judgment.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Turambar on October 01, 2015, 02:23:56 pm
It's still a problem that Derek's attention whoring is taking this guy's attention away from making his awesome space game.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 01, 2015, 02:46:31 pm
Holy **** I only read the "Greetings Citizen" part, I didn't see the part below it where Chris Roberts starts attacking the article writer.

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/14979-Chairmans-Response-To-The-Escapist

"I’m also pretty concerned that your reporter on this is compromised and pursuing her own agenda. For someone who is a self-acclaimed Gamer Gate supporter, which last I checked was about ethics in video game journalism, she’s not been behaving or going about her business like an ethical reporter."

"This is directed at a self-avowed feminist"

" I don’t know Liz’s personal life (nor do I care to) but based on the picture of her in “Bandit’s” tweet it is not a stretch to assume there is either a close relationship between Liz and “Bandit” or they are potentially one and the same."


Even this statement seems peculiar:
Accusations of entering into a joint venture partnership with Turbulent, and using crowdfunding money in order to assist with the continued creation of the crowdfunding platform that was used on the RSI website to market to other companies.

In response:
CR: The opposite is true. CIG benefited from pre-existing software that Turbulent had developed. Our JV with them allowed us access to cheaper rates and bound an important part of Star Citizen closer to CIG, which are both beneficial to CIG and the backers. Per our agreement Turbulent is of course free to offer their technology to other customers.

The opposite of what is true?  The guy from Turbulent said:
"We thank Cloud Imperium Games for taking a risk with us and for contributing conceptually and commercially to making HEAP C3MS fantastic for content monetization."


Can you contribute "conceptually" to "pre-existing" software? Is using someone's software considered "taking  a risk"? 
Seems to me like someone is lying.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on October 01, 2015, 02:46:55 pm
DEREK SMART
DEREK SMART
DEREK SMART
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on October 01, 2015, 02:49:29 pm
Except the article isn't basing its claims on Derek. You know, details...

Well, Chris Roberts seems to think they do.

And he has absolutely no evidence of that. It's completely dishonest and it smacks of desperation.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 01, 2015, 02:53:34 pm
Except the article isn't basing its claims on Derek. You know, details...

Well, Chris Roberts seems to think they do.

And he has absolutely no evidence of that. It's completely dishonest and it smacks of desperation.

It's even amusing how in his response letter he talks about Derek in his wing commander days, bad mouths BC3000, etcetera and so forth.  Attacks the reporter. Attacks Derek Smart. Attacks the credibility of the informants.
Doesn't seem to mention that some of DSmart's games have scored as well or higher than his own projects like Starlancer.  I wonder if the success of Wing Commander is due to being at Origin with Garriot, and man whose games are arguably always improving and always getting finished.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 01, 2015, 04:03:27 pm
I kind of imagine these two still sperging against each other when they are ninety years old, about whose lawn is greener and whose dog left which poop where...
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Turambar on October 01, 2015, 04:57:35 pm
I kind of imagine these two still sperging against each other when they are ninety years old, about whose lawn is greener and whose dog left which poop where...

Derek will probably kill himself once Star Citizen succeeds.  Nothing left for him to live for, really.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 01, 2015, 05:31:38 pm
I kind of imagine these two still sperging against each other when they are ninety years old, about whose lawn is greener and whose dog left which poop where...

Derek will probably kill himself once Star Citizen succeeds.  Nothing left for him to live for, really.

That's a horrendous attitude
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on October 01, 2015, 06:00:25 pm
thankfully it's incredibly unlikely that star citizen will succeed
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Scotty on October 01, 2015, 06:00:58 pm
I kind of imagine these two still sperging against each other when they are ninety years old, about whose lawn is greener and whose dog left which poop where...

Derek will probably kill himself once Star Citizen succeeds.  Nothing left for him to live for, really.

That's a horrendous attitude

Star Citizen at present course will never succeed.  Wishing eternal life on someone does seem pretty terrible though.

e:f;b
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 01, 2015, 06:44:52 pm
Incidentally on the subject of Derek smart, this article is an interesting read. Though it is a few years old:

http://www.polygon.com/2012/11/14/3553620/the-redemption-of-derek-smart

Apologies if it may have been linked in this thread already, I can't recall how I came across it.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Polpolion on October 01, 2015, 10:31:54 pm
Quote
"A lot of people who don't know me, who don't play my games think I've failed and I don't care," Smart says. "When I look at my bank account, I just laugh."

stopped right there
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: karajorma on October 01, 2015, 10:50:04 pm
And it shouldn't have. If you're a legendary game developer forging a new path in the industry, the ravings of a man who's been known as a clown since the Usenet era should be the easiest thing in the world to dismiss. And yet here Roberts is, trading personal insults and skirting around the legally-actionable accusations against his company.

Yeah, that's the bit to tends to make me sit up and take notice. If I was being accused of racism, ageism and a whole host of other very bad behaviour, my last problem would be whether the game was going to come out on time or not. And the thing is, such claims could easily be proved false. If they said things about emails I'd sent I'd challenge them to publish those emails (or at least send them to The Escapist and give me right of reply). Since those would be very easily proved as not true, I'd go after them first in the hope that I could discredit the rest of the article by association with such obvious lies.


What I would definitely not do is make a personal attack on the journalist concerned, cause that pretty much confirms the whole "Eye of Sauron" thing they were talking about.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: AtomicClucker on October 01, 2015, 11:34:17 pm
Welp, going to say that regardless of the drama (and the rough shod, slow, and inebriated pace of StarCitizen) my faith in the CIG has pretty much evaporated. Currently, the Escapist is taking heat for a charged (and possibly in bad faith article), Derek Smart lets loose like a volley of cannon, and Chris Roberts just doused himself in oil and lit the fuse.

Idiocy in, idiocy out, but given my swaying attitudes and I will confess to initially giving Derek Smart some credence to his claims, my faith in StarCitizen has long since waned and this is the final nail in the coffin. Personally, I think the allegations are hollow since they seem for verbatim taken from Glassdoor, but given Robert's conducts? He's pretty stupid and crude. Overall, just a parade of egoes and mistakes turning into a mess to the point I don't know what to make of it anymore.

But either way, StarCitizen is dead to me.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on October 02, 2015, 01:36:40 am
Those emails are personal correspondence with employees, publishing them would be unethical. What Chris could do is to publish screenshot of SC bank account. There was a specific claim made, that only $ few million of backer money remains. It would be easy to falsify, and that would cast doubt on other information from these sources.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: karajorma on October 02, 2015, 02:33:49 am
Like I said, I consider the claim of racism, abuse of staff, etc to be much more important. Very few of the staff would have a complete understanding of the companies finances, so it wouldn't discredit the rumours that much if they were wrong but could make a believable story about what they'd heard. You can easily say "I'd heard we had very little money left" and then justify that as being because of some other kind of malfeasance (We have little money, so no Christmas bonuses, you'll get them Christmas 2014 after the game is out). But if you claim someone sent you an abusive email and you can't produce it......

Those emails are personal correspondence with employees, publishing them would be unethical.

If someone claims you said something in an email to them, it is in no way unethical to challenge them to publish that email. If they aren't willing to show an email that they claimed said something, they shouldn't have mentioned it in the first place. And it's not like you aren't asking them for permission, by challenging them to produce the email you've put the onus on them to back up their claims.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: The E on October 02, 2015, 02:42:30 am
Yeah, as has been mentioned in this thread already, it would be trivial for CIG and CR to defeat these accusations (well, maybe not exactly trivial when it comes to things like accounting statements, but you get the idea). That they haven't, that they've decided to go on the attack and try to discredit the reporter and the article instead, that's kinda worrying.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 02, 2015, 04:24:00 am
And it was by Chris himself, wherein such a task would probably demand the PR guy to deliver a much more contained version of that screed. As it stands, we get a glimpse of Chris' demeanour and character, which kinda resonates with the picture that the Escapist's article reports on.

My only doubts now reside on the speed of the downfall.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on October 02, 2015, 04:26:51 am
You are assuming that the sources have the emails. The way I understood it, these sources are claiming to be memories of alleged former employees, so they probably do not have any access to CIG internal communications anymore, and its just "he said, she said" situation. In addition to that, these emails may contain personal information about other employees, not just about sources themselves, and it would indeed be unethical and unprofessional to publish them without agreement of everyone involved. Especially if the emails may contain some criticism of employee performances. You dont just publish internal comms because someone said you are racist with no evidence to back it up..

And in the end, the accusation about only $8 million of backer money remaining is much more serious, IMHO, because it would kill the whole project and could be an indication of fraud. Thats what CIG should concentrate on, and would also be easy to disprove. In fact, it would be a good idea to publish a rough overview of CIG expenses, it is one area where CIG is strangely silent, even tough rest of the development is pretty open.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 02, 2015, 04:52:39 am
I do think the accusations of sexism and racism are very important. The Escapist phrases it as something they didn't have their own eyes at it. They should have been more cautious about those, and if they still thought it was an important fact to state, they should have totally caveated that **** out with innumerous adjectives.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: karajorma on October 02, 2015, 05:32:12 am
You are assuming that the sources have the emails. The way I understood it, these sources are claiming to be memories of alleged former employees, so they probably do not have any access to CIG internal communications anymore, and its just "he said, she said" situation. In addition to that, these emails may contain personal information about other employees, not just about sources themselves, and it would indeed be unethical and unprofessional to publish them without agreement of everyone involved. Especially if the emails may contain some criticism of employee performances. You dont just publish internal comms because someone said you are racist with no evidence to back it up..

And once again, you simply challenge them to give you permission to post the full emails then. You seem to be missing my point that I'm saying you get permission from the source to open this up.

Sure they may mention other employees in some of the emails, but if you're going to claim that every single abusive email mentions someone else, your credibility is going to go down a lot.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: AtomicClucker on October 02, 2015, 11:23:16 am
For me, the tipping point in this whole mess is the childish tantrum that Chris Roberts threw and personal attacks against the journalist in question.

Now Roberts maybe under stress, or dealing with personal stuff and made a very bad mistake by pretty much up opening the sluice gates and letting out pent up frustration.

But that doesn't excuse him from acting like an idiot - instead of a response "We think these are claims that need to be addressed..." he flipped his lid, attacked the journalist, Derek Smart, and did little to assuage the situation.

And so it fuels the speculation and claims against him and the StarCitizen brand. And the fanbois? Oh boy, this is why I left the SC forums long ago because of the cultist thuggery for anyone challenging the Pope Chris Roberts. What the current mess reveals is that rather than a measured response, it's like watching people figure skating with enraged bears and expecting an Olympic performance.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Turambar on October 02, 2015, 11:25:09 am
I feel like this whole thing is a manufactured controversy, like Benghazi or this latest planned parenthood thing.  There was never any truth to it, it's just people trying to piss on other people's work.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on October 02, 2015, 12:24:09 pm
It has all the hallmarks of that and yet again and again the accusations have proven disturbingly accurate.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: The E on October 02, 2015, 12:41:52 pm
If we leave aside the accusations of racism, sexism, hostile work environments, all of that crap that will always devolve to he-said-she-said, we're still left with enough stuff that should be easy for CR and CIG to disprove. All I want to see at this point is some progress that isn't tied to making new jpgs for the store to sell. Some stuff about the mechanics of the universe. Indications that they got their flight physics figured out. Like, the nitty-gritty project management stuff. GANTT charts. Burndown stats. That sort of thing, regularly updated.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 02, 2015, 12:42:48 pm
There's no truth that they've missed their deadlines?

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/12734-Draft-FAQ

"Can you explain the stretch goals?"

"The purpose of the higher stretch goals is to ensure that the game-as-described is finished in the two year time period. We intend to build the game that Chris Roberts described at GDC Online regardless, but without additional funding we are going to have to do it one piece at a time, starting with Squadron 42, rather than as a single larger production."

They've neither started with SQ42 nor finished within two years.  The current game and pricing is basically pay-to-win whale bait.

Another interview I found Chris Roberts says the team size at production end will be 60-70 people.  It's currently 261.  Take that as an indicator for what you will.  Part of the plan though was that increased money would allow the universe to be realized all at once, instead it's pushed everything back.

Like realistically.
This project is no longer a kickstarter. It's an Early Access game. The game is out, people are paying to play, some people are paying to play it with much better ships.  The company is already getting paid for their work what incentive do they have to finish it?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on October 02, 2015, 01:00:22 pm
It has all the hallmarks of that and yet again and again the accusations have proven disturbingly accurate.

I dont think any accusations were proven to be disturbingly accurate yet. Its all he said she said right now.

They did miss the deadline when it comes to Squadron 42, tough. However, missed deadline is not such a big deal. SC is a complex project, and it takes at least 4-5 years to develop an AAA game, there is no way around it. Nine women do not make a baby in one month. Two years was too optimistic, I expect at least another year and a half until the game approaches something which could be considered "finished". In the meantime, "baby persistent universe" featuring a single playable system as seen in Gamescom demo should be out before the end of the year. It will be the point when the game comes together, instead of separate modules. We will be in a much better position to judge overall gameplay when that is released.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on October 02, 2015, 02:04:24 pm
It has all the hallmarks of that and yet again and again the accusations have proven disturbingly accurate.

I dont think any accusations were proven to be disturbingly accurate yet. Its all he said she said right now.

They did miss the deadline when it comes to Squadron 42, tough. However, missed deadline is not such a big deal. SC is a complex project, and it takes at least 4-5 years to develop an AAA game, there is no way around it. Nine women do not make a baby in one month. Two years was too optimistic, I expect at least another year and a half until the game approaches something which could be considered "finished". In the meantime, "baby persistent universe" featuring a single playable system as seen in Gamescom demo should be out before the end of the year. It will be the point when the game comes together, instead of separate modules. We will be in a much better position to judge overall gameplay when that is released.
Missing a deadline isn't a big deal, no.  Missing every deadline is.  Since the kickstarter, CIG have met precisely one deadline (the social module), and that's a deadline they set after they'd already missed it three times.  That in itself shows serious issues with management.

And the chances of them releasing a "baby PU" before the end of the year are utterly laughable.


Quote
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/14979-Chairmans-Response-To-The-Escapist

Quote from: Adventure Pigeon, SA forums
"Hmmm... how do I calm the agitated masses and restore dignity to my game in this time of trouble"

*begins to type out the word 'Gamergate'*
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 02, 2015, 02:04:34 pm
On anonymous sources:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/video-games/14727-The-Escapist-Explains-Its-Star-Citizen-Sources-Vetting-and-Respo

Escapist explains its sources, why Robert's response wasn't initially included, etcetera.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on October 02, 2015, 02:31:06 pm
On anonymous sources:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/video-games/14727-The-Escapist-Explains-Its-Star-Citizen-Sources-Vetting-and-Respo

Escapist explains its sources, why Robert's response wasn't initially included, etcetera.
I love the comments to that.  "Anonymous sources have no credibility. Put your name on it if you want someone to believe you.".  Yeah, what the hell is wrong with these people, not being willing to throw their careers away over this? 

The Escapist vetted those sources.  That should be enough.  Unless of course, you think The Escapist itself is biased against SC.  The only evidence for that is... the original article.

So The Escapist is biased against SC because they published an article that was negative about SC.  Naturally, the only unbiased opinion is that SC is the second coming of Jesus Christ Roberts.  Anything else is trolling and clickbait.

Not a cult.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: AtomicClucker on October 02, 2015, 02:35:04 pm
But but but Papal Infallibility!
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 02, 2015, 02:45:11 pm
Honestly from what I've seen.

Currently, what ship you get in game depends upon what package you buy. Better packages with better ships slaughter ships from cheaper packages. I've heard it's nigh impossible to win with an Aurora against a better ship.

There is a plan for players to earn UEC in-game, which they can use to buy better ships.  This is not in the beta.
What is in the game is the chance to REC, which allows you to save up an rent a ship for one week.

What is available now is purely a pay-to-win Early Access game with the promise that it will be fair when released but currently people are being screwed over and bled dry


I don't know how anyone can see what is available now and not call the whole thing a scam.  Did people complain about 150 dollar gold Timberwolves for Mechwarrior Online? Are those same people not complaining about Star Citizen's current pricing scheme? Pay to play and pay to win.  Compare it to any other free to play game and it will look bad. League of Legends rotates free heroes all the time. Other games allow you to progress but at a slower rate. Other games give an edge not a dominate edge in firepower. etcetera.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on October 02, 2015, 02:52:38 pm
Calling it a game is generous.  ATM it's an online store selling a couple of tech demos and 900$ jpegs (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/pledge/Standalone-Ships/Endeavor-Master-Set-LTI).
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Turambar on October 02, 2015, 03:03:40 pm
Well once we deplete our aquifers out here, I know I can find some fresh haterade in this thread.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 02, 2015, 03:08:09 pm
Well once we deplete our aquifers out here, I know I can find some fresh haterade in this thread.

And what describes your positive experience with Star Citizen right now?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on October 02, 2015, 04:11:35 pm
Honestly from what I've seen.

Currently, what ship you get in game depends upon what package you buy. Better packages with better ships slaughter ships from cheaper packages. I've heard it's nigh impossible to win with an Aurora against a better ship.

There is a plan for players to earn UEC in-game, which they can use to buy better ships.  This is not in the beta.
What is in the game is the chance to REC, which allows you to save up an rent a ship for one week.

What is available now is purely a pay-to-win Early Access game with the promise that it will be fair when released but currently people are being screwed over and bled dry


I don't know how anyone can see what is available now and not call the whole thing a scam.  Did people complain about 150 dollar gold Timberwolves for Mechwarrior Online? Are those same people not complaining about Star Citizen's current pricing scheme? Pay to play and pay to win.  Compare it to any other free to play game and it will look bad. League of Legends rotates free heroes all the time. Other games allow you to progress but at a slower rate. Other games give an edge not a dominate edge in firepower. etcetera.

The primary goal of buying SC now is to fund development, and the primary goal of playing SC now is to help devs test the game and provide feedback. Not to win, not even necessarily to have fun. I expect any scores to be reset after 1.0 version of PU goes online and ship selling to cease. If that does not happen, you will have a point. But not before. I dont see anything scammy in what Star Citizen is doing, on the contrary, I wish more of my favourite games offered me a way to contribute to their development like that, even before they release the final version. Its simple - if you dont like it, or cant stomach the risk of failure, dont buy it (or buy it after release). Your comparison with MWO is fundamentally flawed, since its not development versions that were pay to win, but after release.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Turambar on October 02, 2015, 04:23:42 pm
Well once we deplete our aquifers out here, I know I can find some fresh haterade in this thread.

And what describes your positive experience with Star Citizen right now?

Is it out?  I only tried arena commander, and walked around my hangar a bit.  I'll let you know after they send me the email saying that Squadron 42 is ready and I have a chance to play.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 02, 2015, 04:25:25 pm
Honestly from what I've seen.

Currently, what ship you get in game depends upon what package you buy. Better packages with better ships slaughter ships from cheaper packages. I've heard it's nigh impossible to win with an Aurora against a better ship.

There is a plan for players to earn UEC in-game, which they can use to buy better ships.  This is not in the beta.
What is in the game is the chance to REC, which allows you to save up an rent a ship for one week.

What is available now is purely a pay-to-win Early Access game with the promise that it will be fair when released but currently people are being screwed over and bled dry


I don't know how anyone can see what is available now and not call the whole thing a scam.  Did people complain about 150 dollar gold Timberwolves for Mechwarrior Online? Are those same people not complaining about Star Citizen's current pricing scheme? Pay to play and pay to win.  Compare it to any other free to play game and it will look bad. League of Legends rotates free heroes all the time. Other games allow you to progress but at a slower rate. Other games give an edge not a dominate edge in firepower. etcetera.

The primary goal of buying SC now is to fund development, and the primary goal of playing SC now is to help devs test the game and provide feedback. Not to win, not even necessarily to have fun. I expect any scores to be reset after 1.0 version of PU goes online and ship selling to cease. If that does not happen, you will have a point. But not before. I dont see anything scammy in what Star Citizen is doing, on the contrary, I wish more of my favourite games offered me a way to contribute to their development like that, even before they release the final version. Its simple - if you dont like it, or cant stomach the risk of failure, dont buy it (or buy it after release).

If the Beta was released for testing purposes, every player would have access to all the ships.  Players who bought higher priced ships would get them at release and other players would need to earn them.
Why would a game intentionally limit the testing of higher priced ships by denying them to most of the player base?

Most of the time you test a game, it's for balance purposes.  The cheap ship is completely outmatched by the higher priced ones. So how exactly are you testing for balance? 

Why aren't they testing the UEC earning progression?

Quote
Your comparison with MWO is fundamentally flawed, since its not development versions that were pay to win, but after release.

Oh yeah that makes a WORLD of difference. One game it's evil because it's released, one game it's saintly because it's "in development". What a load of horse****.
MWO was also a free game.

And do you honestly believe that store is going to go away once it's released?

Well once we deplete our aquifers out here, I know I can find some fresh haterade in this thread.

And what describes your positive experience with Star Citizen right now?

Is it out?  I only tried arena commander, and walked around my hangar a bit.  I'll let you know after they send me the email saying that Squadron 42 is ready and I have a chance to play.

So what Derek Smart game did you play?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Falcon on October 02, 2015, 08:08:00 pm
I think in order for Star Citizen to actually succeed Chis Robert needs to be separated from the project, maybe he can still be a creative consultant but the game needs to be placed into the hands of someone who can actually set goals and meet them while also knowing what is and isn't feasible.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Turambar on October 02, 2015, 11:43:50 pm

So what Derek Smart game did you play?

I didn't play any, I was just here when he was shopping around for Freespace rights.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on October 03, 2015, 02:21:25 am

If the Beta was released for testing purposes, every player would have access to all the ships.  Players who bought higher priced ships would get them at release and other players would need to earn them.
Why would a game intentionally limit the testing of higher priced ships by denying them to most of the player base?

Because they get more money that way? Duh. It is not for testing purposes only, it is also to fund the game. SC differs from other games because it is entirely backer-funded, and thats why even some borderline "money-grabbing" schemes are excused for them, as long as they dont continue into the final version. The more money they get, the better for the players, because it means they can cram more into the game. And as long as there are enough players to buy all the higher ships (which there are), it wont harm the testing efforts since every ship would get tested. Not to mention that there are often free flight weeks of specific ships, so that they do get tested by everyone. I only have a lousy Aurora, yet I have flown many other ships.

Quote

Most of the time you test a game, it's for balance purposes.  The cheap ship is completely outmatched by the higher priced ones. So how exactly are you testing for balance?


I dont get your point, could you rephrase? Cheap ships should be generally worse than pricier ships, that is what I call balanced.

Quote

Why aren't they testing the UEC earning progression?



What is that? PU is not released yet, its hard to test something which doesnt exist yet..

Quote
Oh yeah that makes a WORLD of difference. One game it's evil because it's released, one game it's saintly because it's "in development". What a load of horse****.
MWO was also a free game.


Its not horse****. Pay to win is bad because and only because it offers unearned advantages for some players. But there is no obligation to keep gameplay totaly fair during development. Who wins or loses is secondary. The only obligation during development is to test the game and to earn more money for development. If the game is still pay to win after it releases, then I will be angry, but not before.

Quote
And do you honestly believe that store is going to go away once it's released?

We will see.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on October 03, 2015, 04:13:38 am

If the Beta was released for testing purposes, every player would have access to all the ships.  Players who bought higher priced ships would get them at release and other players would need to earn them.
Why would a game intentionally limit the testing of higher priced ships by denying them to most of the player base?

Because they get more money that way? Duh. It is not for testing purposes only, it is also to fund the game. SC differs from other games because it is entirely backer-funded, and thats why even some borderline "money-grabbing" schemes are excused for them, as long as they dont continue into the final version. The more money they get, the better for the players, because it means they can cram more into the game. And as long as there are enough players to buy all the higher ships (which there are), it wont harm the testing efforts since every ship would get tested. Not to mention that there are often free flight weeks of specific ships, so that they do get tested by everyone. I only have a lousy Aurora, yet I have flown many other ships.
This is like saying that winning the lottery means your money troubles are over because you have more money than you ever needed before.  And yet there are plenty of examples of people spending themselves into debt because they had no idea how to manage that kind of money.  It's a very similar situation.  In this case, SC's success has led to an insane amount of feature creep, and combined with CR's crazy ambition and arrogance (if sources are to be believed), it's made CIG incapable of locking down exactly what they want to do with their game. 

This isn't opinion.  CR is the one who, a month ago, said that it was "still early days" and that's why he couldn't talk about the game's economy.  3 years and $90M in, and the basics of how players transfer will money to each other haven't been pinned down.  For a game in which trading and taking jobs is meant to be a significant part of gameplay.  Again, CR has no idea what he wants to do with this game.  And that's because his runaway success with crowdfunding has convinced him he can just constantly increase the scope of his game again and again and again.

This is why a lot of people have lost confidence in the project as CIG got more and more money.  I was a hell of a lot more excited about SC when they hadn't even broken 10 million, because the game they had planned was actually achievable and could have been released by now.

This letter (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/3lyfb1/david_jennison_former_lead_character_artist_in/) is so worth reading.  It supports everything we've said here and have been saying since this thread was started 3 months ago.


I never thought I'd be on the same side of an issue as Akalabeth.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Falcon on October 03, 2015, 05:31:37 am
It's going to feel like Duke Nukem Forever again if this game does get released but doesn't live up to expectations. Only this time it'll be 90 mill wasted instead of 14 years.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Dragon on October 03, 2015, 06:08:50 am
This is why a lot of people have lost confidence in the project as CIG got more and more money.  I was a hell of a lot more excited about SC when they hadn't even broken 10 million, because the game they had planned was actually achievable and could have been released by now.
I'm afraid that I'm going to agree with you here as well. At this point, CIG seems like it has waaay too much money. They're rapidly approaching a 100M$ dollar budget. While it's not a government project (if it was, it'd be doomed for certain at this point), this is a classic example of "too much of a good thing". Coppola had the a similar situation during filming of Apocalypse Now. That took an absurd amount of time, but it panned out. His next move (also with way too much budget, and now also too much confidence in himself), however, did not. CR's crowdfunding success does put him in Coppola's situation when making that second movie. So, we might as well end up with both 100 million wasted and 14 years or so. At least it isn't being developed behind closed doors, so if/when something does get done, it will be playable anyway. Indeed, the only reason I'm still hopeful for the project is that it has a community that can give feedback both about development process and the game itself.

One thing we can be sure of. Even if it does get done eventually, it won't be anytime soon. So I remain hopeful, but I'm not exactly holding my breath.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Scotty on October 03, 2015, 12:23:20 pm
I dont get your point, could you rephrase? Cheap ships should be generally worse than pricier ships, that is what I call balanced.

Its not horse****. Pay to win is bad because and only because it offers unearned advantages for some players. But there is no obligation to keep gameplay totaly fair during development. Who wins or loses is secondary. The only obligation during development is to test the game and to earn more money for development. If the game is still pay to win after it releases, then I will be angry, but not before.

Bolded for emphasis.

Please enjoy your day off.  When you come back, let's have these discussions in good faith, okay?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: AtomicClucker on October 03, 2015, 01:16:31 pm
Well, I wanted a game that was like an updated or remake of Privateer.

But after 3 years, the problem is that Roberts has no idea to take it in a direction - because really, there needs to be an end to a means in a project. The original goal was quite simple - and something that Elite Dangerous pulled off quite well. They kept focus on what they deemed the right priorities. Sounds like Robert's is running from once fancy to the next.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 03, 2015, 01:37:44 pm
Honestly, I fail to see bad faith in his reasoning. At worst, confusion. He seems to be merely suggesting that "cheap ships" should play worse than "expensive ships" in a context of beta testing play, while that, in the final state of the game, it should be balanced.

As I said, at worst, confusion (for obvious reasons), or wishful thinking cognitive dissonance.

Regardless, this thread is already going in circles, perhaps let's wait for more news to discuss? I'm sure we will know some in the next few days (according to trends!)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Falcon on October 03, 2015, 06:53:08 pm
CitizenCon should provide ample news in a week, hopefully there will be something worth showing. I do have a question though, if this game does not hit the mark and fails do you think any publisher would pick the game up and try and piece it together in one form or another? Or would it not be worth it?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on October 03, 2015, 07:17:24 pm
Crowdfunding's something of a legal frontier at this stage and projects are starting to be targeted with legal action for failing to deliver. If Star Citizen actually does fail, what publisher's going to risk taking on a $90 million potential liability?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 03, 2015, 11:28:30 pm

So what Derek Smart game did you play?

I didn't play any, I was just here when he was shopping around for Freespace rights.

Oh curious how you formed an opinion of his development efforts despite having not played any of his games, yet you reserve judgement for Star Citizen. In either case apparently your experience in arena and walking around your hangar was not compelling enough to ensure your continued participation:

To be fair, he has spent a huge chunk of his life trying to accomplish exactly what Star Citizen is going for, and probably has a better idea than nearly anyone about how incredibly hard it is to pull off.

He knows how hard the first 3 or 4 steps are, at least.

- - - - - -

All in all one must draw some comparisons between this campaign and a ponzi scheme.
Originally people were asked to donate 40 dollars or so. Now later on there are tons of high priced "packages" for people to buy into it, much like a ponzi scheme asks for investments and then later on asks for even greater investments with higher stakes (a better game).

One person I spoke with on the escapist alleges that Star Citizen's development scope and goals are not being based upon how much money they have, but rather upon how much money they're getting which to my mindset seems like a terrible way to conduct business.  Because #1 you're spending money based on a revenue source which is not at all guaranteed, and #2 undoubtedly the campaign to bring in more money will divert resources.  They'll be making assets to bring in money which is then used to both fund the development of the game and also create assets to bring in more money, like some sort of circular money pit.  Those same assets will undoubtedly be in the game but if they're potentially not designed for that purpose I wonder how well they'd integrate.   This same person alleged they had some healthy reserve of money to finish the game should crowd-funding ground to a halt but even so, that doesn't seem like a great management strategy.

That being said this is again coming from some reader of escapist, and as much as I've been in conflict with people here I think the readership of the escapist is about half as literate and a third as mature as any forum goer here.  One person for example tried to defeat the idea that CIG is racist because a video that came out yesterday had a black guy in it (very fortuitous timing), even though the actually allegation from the source was not that CIG did not hire black people, but rather that Sandi refused hiring a specific woman because she was black.  Also amusingly if you listen to the podcast, they also said that Sandi refused hiring a second woman because she was probably hairy in her nether regions if you can believe it.  But this is information from a disgruntled ex or current employee and is difficult to prove regardless, nor does it directly impact the production beyond the happiness of those working there.

Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on October 04, 2015, 01:25:58 am
CitizenCon should provide ample news in a week, hopefully there will be something worth showing. I do have a question though, if this game does not hit the mark and fails do you think any publisher would pick the game up and try and piece it together in one form or another? Or would it not be worth it?
The way I see it, there are two things that would actively discourage a publisher from funding this the rest of the way: 1) most of the people who can reliably be expected to buy the game have already done so, and if CIG needs a publisher's help, most of the money from that is gone.  2) that isn't $90M of sales, it's $90M of debt.  Debt which the publisher would need to take on to finalise the game.  And if it can't be done, they'd probably need to pay a lot of that money back.

To me, it just doesn't look like there's enough profit to be made for a publisher to want to save this game.

EDIT: I thought this was a good enough post to warrant being posted here:

Quote from: RuckusRouser, Something Awful SC thread
Someone brought up a point a few pages back that was mostly glossed over but very important, especially for all the people wondering about SC's money.

In the BattleTech kickstarter they are asking for $1M worth of funding just to add a single-player campaign to an already internally paid for PC-port of a boardgame. The game ruleset will more than likely be just a modern version of a game that is literally decades old, so most design and balance is done, or at least enough to provide a foundation. Yet, they still know it takes $1M and ~1.5 years (projected release of May 2017) to simply add a campaign. Why? Because their studio has made games in the past few years and knows how expensive modern game development is. They won't even have voice acting until $1.35M and multiplayer until $2.5M.

Compare and contrast this to Chris Roberts, whose most recent game, Freelancer, was released 9 years prior to when he launched his kickstarter. Also keep in mind that he had to be forced out of his position as studio lead in 2000 because the project was overbudget and overdue, so the replacement leads completed the game. Roberts' most recent management experience of a game was 12 years prior to the SC kickstarter. [and it was a complete failure -Aesaar]

Then, he asked for $500K to create a game that had:
-Single Player Campaign – Offline or Online (Drop in / Drop out co-op play)
-Persistent Universe
-Mod-able multiplayer
-10X the detail of current AAA games
-Fully dynamic economy driven by player actions


Roberts is a person who not only has a record of being unable to manage development funds, but also proves that he has no idea what modern game development entails. Of all the things the Escapist article touched upon, the most important point with relevance to the sustainability of the project is the $8M figure. (Note: I am not saying that the points about a toxic work environment and business ethics are unimportant, just that they have less bearing on the project's life than the finances)

In his crazy rant he brings up in-depth counterpoints to the article, although he only gets to that after the ad-hominem attacks. When it comes to debunk the talk about the project's finances his main thrust is:

"We always keep a healthy cash reserve and operate our business prudently based on the incoming revenue."


That is it, he then drops the subject with no elaboration. This was his chance to go into detail with regards to their financial situation and assuage the fears of any doubters or disbelievers about what matters the most. I cannot understand how anyone can have any faith in this "savior of PC gaming" with his past record of mismanagement in light of the rumors of current mismanagement.



EDIT 2: https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/14979-Chairmans-Response-To-The-Escapist

TL;DR: The Escapist has to issue an apology and retract their article, or CIG will sue them.

SPACE COURT!  Just when I thought this whole thing had reached peak comedy, there's more.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 04, 2015, 03:08:29 am
And whose money will be used to sue the Escapist? Hmmm.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: karajorma on October 04, 2015, 05:33:45 am
To be fair to them, if the claims of racism are untrue, the only possible response for them is to sue cause that is a textbook case of defamation. On the other hand, if The Escapist can prove their claim, they're going to really regret trying to sue.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 04, 2015, 11:22:30 pm
Is that what passes for a legal document these days?  Including snide remarks and jabs? ie roughly 'we're going to give you 24 hours, the same amount of time you generously gave us'. Like really? It's like reading a legal document written by someone in grade school.  Why are they so eager to air their dirty laundry, why not simply say we're demanding they retract the article or we'll take them to court?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on October 04, 2015, 11:52:26 pm
To be fair to them, if the claims of racism are untrue, the only possible response for them is to sue cause that is a textbook case of defamation. On the other hand, if The Escapist can prove their claims, they're going to really regret trying to sue.
The Escapist doesn't need to prove their claim.  I'm not a lawyer, so take this with a grain of salt, but as I understand it (with the help of a couple of lawyers in the Something Awful thread), under American law, the burden of proof is on CIG.  They'd need to prove that The Escapist knew the claims weren't true and printed them anyway.  Even if they aren't true, so long as The Escapist had reasonable cause to believe they were true, printing them isn't illegal.

Things are different under English law, but both The Escapist and CIG are American companies, and both the states of New York (where The Esacpist is based) and California (where CIG is based) have laws that prevent libel tourism.

I'm having trouble understanding CIG's reasoning here.  This lawsuit would be very difficult to win.  What's more, if they lose, public perception would view that as an admission that what The Escapist wrote was true.  It could utterly ruin them. 

Same deal if they're bluffing.  It'll look like they're not confident enough about their side of the story to actually follow through on litigation.  It'll also make them look like Derek Smart.

And even if they win, all that does is dispel the drama from the last week or so.  All the stuff we've talked about in this thread?  This wouldn't address those issues at all.  CIG have everything to lose and very little to gain from this.  I don't get why they're doing it.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: NGTM-1R on October 05, 2015, 12:37:13 am
CIG have everything to lose and very little to gain from this.  I don't get why they're doing it.

Assuming that CIG doesn't know things we don't about it, you'd be right. That's not a good assumption considering the accusations were made about their internal behavior. For all we know they're aware exactly who was spoken to or what was released and can prove it was a Rolling Stone job.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on October 05, 2015, 01:50:33 am

Then, he asked for $500K to create a game that had:
-Single Player Campaign – Offline or Online (Drop in / Drop out co-op play)
-Persistent Universe
-Mod-able multiplayer
-10X the detail of current AAA games
-Fully dynamic economy driven by player actions


This is not true, 500k was merely the kickstarter goal and it was added later on for those who did not want to pledge through official site.

The original plan was to earn at least $2 million from crowdfunding, which would have proven there is interest in this game and then there were investors lined up who would fund SC up to $20 million. Star Citizen was always supposed to be quite expensive.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Hades on October 05, 2015, 04:57:20 am
TBH it'd have been better for them to barely get over 2 mil and nothing more because investors know how to make sure someone knows what they want and to do it, whereas nerds just know how to give up their money in exchange for jpegs
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 05, 2015, 05:29:21 am
CIG have everything to lose and very little to gain from this.  I don't get why they're doing it.

Assuming that CIG doesn't know things we don't about it, you'd be right. That's not a good assumption considering the accusations were made about their internal behavior. For all we know they're aware exactly who was spoken to or what was released and can prove it was a Rolling Stone job.

I like how "Rolling Stone job" is a thing now :D.

This could be right. It could also be, IMO, merely intimidation to prevent further articles on Star Citizen to come about, not just by the Escapist (who seemed to be on a roll), but by others who were starting to notice and share these problematic leaks.

I noticed a lot of sperging during the weekend. People fervently willing to disprove the "Id Cards" and other nonsense. The amount of defensiveness over this subject is surreal, but the more I look into it, the more convinced I become that the article is genuine and so are the sources.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: karajorma on October 05, 2015, 06:04:32 am
The Escapist doesn't need to prove their claim.  I'm not a lawyer, so take this with a grain of salt, but as I understand it (with the help of a couple of lawyers in the Something Awful thread), under American law, the burden of proof is on CIG.  They'd need to prove that The Escapist knew the claims weren't true and printed them anyway.  Even if they aren't true, so long as The Escapist had reasonable cause to believe they were true, printing them isn't illegal.

Things are different under English law, but both The Escapist and CIG are American companies, and both the states of New York (where The Esacpist is based) and California (where CIG is based) have laws that prevent libel tourism.

I'm having trouble understanding CIG's reasoning here.  This lawsuit would be very difficult to win.  What's more, if they lose, public perception would view that as an admission that what The Escapist wrote was true.  It could utterly ruin them.

You aren't actually saying anything that different from the point I was making when I said they'd regret it. While The Escapist doesn't need to prove their innocence, a court case actually gives them a very big club to go after CIG with. They can now call witnesses and make them testify under penalty of perjury, etc. They might be able to make public records that before they would have avoided doing so. There was a discussion earlier on this thread about how publishing certain emails might be unethical. That goes away when you're using those same emails to defend yourself in court.

That said, if CIG can prove that this was a case of unethical reporting, if it was a Rolling Stone job (Yes, I agree this should become a thing) then they absolutely should sue. If they're really not guilty on all counts, they'd have nothing to worry about. But if Luis is correct and they are trying an intimidation tactic, it could backfire on them spectacularly.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: The E on October 05, 2015, 06:13:18 am
I noticed a lot of sperging during the weekend. People fervently willing to disprove the "Id Cards" and other nonsense. The amount of defensiveness over this subject is surreal, but the more I look into it, the more convinced I become that the article is genuine and so are the sources.

If we take CRs claims about this at face value, then those are things one can definitely construct a defamation case around. That the true believers of the Church of the Cloud Imperium jump onto those things as proof that every allegation made by The Escapist is wrong should not be surprising in the least.

Also, bonus popehat (https://popehat.com/2015/10/04/in-space-no-one-can-hear-you-threaten-lawsuits/)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 05, 2015, 06:35:41 am
I don't think they are "true". The Id cards are genuine, what the SC community manager tried to say in his twitter was that these were some kind of "generic cards", not "id cards". IOW, they didn't prove these guys worked there.

But the problem is in the details. Let's not forget that these cards are specific. It's not that they alone prove they worked there, it proves they had access to cards built in the exact same manner. And they didn't just show the cards. They also showed pay stubs (?). And, apparently, they all looked the same. And there was also corroboration (for at least a few) by checking their LinkedIn accounts.

I see two possibilities of fakery here: either The Escapist is lying and fabricating everything (total fantasy fiction yey!), or all of these guys were highly coordinating between themselves, getting equal cards for each one, printing similar payment papers, forging LinkedIn accounts, etc.

I find both possibilities unlikely. I find the possibility that we are just witnessing disgruntled employees ranting about their last job some orders of magnitude more likely. It would also be consistent with the CIG saying "Well, they are absolutely exagerating everything and it doesn't surprises us, for they are disgruntled", or smth to that effect. But this simpler analysis isn't useful to sue the Escapist. One could speculate that these claims of forgery were "planted" in social media so they can porsue "investigations" of defamation, etc.  A lot harder to do if it's just "disgruntled people", although I don't believe any of these reactions were really "coordinated", it's just all happening with too much rage and in real time.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: -Joshua- on October 05, 2015, 07:34:44 am
Hmm, reading trough the SC's "Counsel Letter (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/14979-Chairmans-Response-To-The-Escapist)" (honestly, it's too ranty to be that), CIG claims that they do not issue their employees with ID cards at all.

Whoa?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 05, 2015, 08:27:35 am
Read what I said, they claim that ID cards "do not exist", what really exists are merely key cards. They don't deny those exist, they just go "what id cards, pff there ain no id cards" and pretend that's enough clarity. It's not, it's sleazy deflection.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 05, 2015, 12:19:51 pm
I noticed a lot of sperging during the weekend. People fervently willing to disprove the "Id Cards" and other nonsense. The amount of defensiveness over this subject is surreal, but the more I look into it, the more convinced I become that the article is genuine and so are the sources.

If we take CRs claims about this at face value, then those are things one can definitely construct a defamation case around. That the true believers of the Church of the Cloud Imperium jump onto those things as proof that every allegation made by The Escapist is wrong should not be surprising in the least.

Also, bonus popehat (https://popehat.com/2015/10/04/in-space-no-one-can-hear-you-threaten-lawsuits/)

Yeah but this article you're linking basically says that CR needs to prove that the escapist acted maliciously, not negligently.
Also kind of proves that the letter is full of ****, as the guy writing it is acting like a moron while at the same time CCing the head of a huge LA law firm.
Just seems like they're trying to scare and bully the escapist by suing them with their 90 million in crowd funding.

Hey maybe if this does go to court, CiG I can launch a new ship call the Adjudicator, pledges of which go directly to pay for their legal fees.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: karajorma on October 05, 2015, 12:33:45 pm
Not quite.
Quote
That means they'd have to prove actual malice to win a defamation case. Constitutional "actual malice" doesn't mean ill-will, as Freyermuth's letter seems to imply. It means knowledge that the statement is false, or reckless disregard for the truth — that is, publishing despite serious doubts about its truth. Cloud Imperium isn't going to satisfy that standard.


So the kind of negligence in the Rolling Stone case would qualify. CIG can also satisfy that standard IF The Escapist actually did act the way CIG claim they did (i.e working with Derek Smart and not anyone from their company). But given that it's incredibly unlikely that they did that, I tend to agree with Popehat.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 05, 2015, 12:45:07 pm
Yeah, getting funds to sue the Escapist might be troublesome for the very financials that they are accused of mismanaging....

Perhaps they could reach the internet and start a crowdfunding campaign.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 05, 2015, 01:28:36 pm
Yeah, getting funds to sue the Escapist might be troublesome for the very financials that they are accused of mismanaging....

Perhaps they could reach the internet and start a crowdfunding campaign.

One SC backer who commented on gameinformer said roughly "At least if they go to court I will finally see some entertainment value for my dollar" hahahah.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: AtomicClucker on October 05, 2015, 01:43:04 pm
Well, I did think the Escapist screwed up, and Derek Smart is Derek Smart.

But Chris Roberts showed he can't be diplomatic, or willing to make a concerted effort at an olive branch for reassurance.

Derek Smart is an attention whore, but what this mess showed is that Chris Roberts is indeed off his rocker - legal threats over these allegations are not going to back up confidence. I think it adds more salts to the wounds - and I'm going to ask for a refund from Star Citizen. One thing I do agree with Derek Smart? Accountability, oh irony. And since Roberts wants to engage in a slap fight, he can do it without my pledge.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 05, 2015, 02:26:23 pm
Good luck with the refund. CiG has said they're not obligated to give refunds and only do so on a case-by-case basis.
I would not be surprised if their response is roughly "we're withholding our right to issue refunds at this time while the current legal situation is dealt with" or something to that effect because if they suddenly get 500-1000 people asking for refunds they're probably going to freak out.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: AtomicClucker on October 05, 2015, 05:15:49 pm
Yeah, you have to threaten with legal action in regards to getting a refund - and as much as I hate to agree with Derek Smart - finagling the ToS and refunds is like adding salt to the wounds.

Currently writing an e-mail to them stating I find their behavior not only despicable, but actually motivates me NOT to sink anymore money in. Sure they'll ignore me, but at least I'll make my point to their idiocy clear: Chris Roberts, **** you and **** CIG for being douches.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 05, 2015, 07:23:42 pm
The escapist responded to the threat and isn't backing down:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/video-games/14727-The-Escapist-Explains-Its-Star-Citizen-Sources-Vetting-and-Respo

Update: The Escapist, notwithstanding Cloud Imperium Games' notice and posting, stands by its coverage of Star Citizen and intends to continue to investigate the developing story. Since publishing our original stories, we have been contacted by, and are currently interviewing, additional sources corroborating a variety of the reported allegations. Additionally, if Mr. Roberts' offer for The Escapist to "meet the developers making the game and see how we're building one of the most ambitious PC games first hand" remains open, we take the opportunity to accept such invitation so as to hopefully provide the public with sufficient information and opportunity to vet such sources' allegations and claims for themselves. We have also communicated the foregoing directly to Cloud Imperium Games.


As above they also apparently have additional sources they're in discussion with.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: karajorma on October 05, 2015, 09:17:47 pm
I think that was posted before CIG said they'd sue.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 05, 2015, 09:26:21 pm
The main article yes.
But not the update at the top.

You can see the article from the front page:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/

"The Escapists position on our Star Citizen story"

There was also a thread on reddit about the Escapist saying no to the redaction/apology, but for some reason it's gone.  Oh here it is:
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/3nn26d/sigh_escapist_are_not_backing_down_and_intend_to/

Says [removed]? I'm not familiar with reddit or how it works but guessing whoever is moderating it deleted the thread or removed it from the front page?

Other sites are reporting on the update as well:
http://www.gameinformer.com/b/news/archive/2015/10/05/star-citizen-drama-continues-as-cig-threatens-legal-action-over-recent-article.aspx
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: karajorma on October 05, 2015, 09:40:00 pm
I'm pretty sure I saw the update before people on this thread started talking about the legal threat. And CR did publish a pretty epic rant first, and only then alter it into the threat to sue. I think this is pretty much a response to the first rant.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Rheyah on October 06, 2015, 05:56:02 am
As someone who frequently struggles to finish large projects, I know well the travails of the over-promise.

Star Citizen could have been managed by me.  That is all.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 06, 2015, 09:18:43 am
I'm pretty sure I saw the update before people on this thread started talking about the legal threat. And CR did publish a pretty epic rant first, and only then alter it into the threat to sue. I think this is pretty much a response to the first rant.

I'm under the impression that you are wrong and Akalabeth has the right timeline, but your certainty got me confused now.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on October 06, 2015, 09:20:48 am
Kara is wrong. The Escapist's response to the first screed was to add it as commentary into the article.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 06, 2015, 12:19:52 pm
There's an interview of a current employee put up yesterday:
http://blogjob.com/oneangrygamer/2015/10/star-citizen-interview-cig-employee-addresses-financial-allegations-project-concerns/

Though there's not much value in it, what the guy is not saying is more important than what he is and also I think his position within the company as videographer, documenting the process would segregate him from the raw realities on the working on the floor.


Incidentally, the front page animation has the words "I am a dream given form"? Ripping off Babylon 5 Star Citizen? Come on. Only Dream Given Form is a 5-mile long space station in neutral territory.  They might as well put "Boldly going where no game has gone before" on the front page as well.  :mad:
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: karajorma on October 06, 2015, 12:55:22 pm
Kara is wrong. The Escapist's response to the first screed was to add it as commentary into the article.

I don't know if you guys have noticed, but the text of the update on BOTH of these

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/video-games/14727-The-Escapist-Explains-Its-Star-Citizen-Sources-Vetting-and-Respo

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/video-games/features/14715-CIG-Employees-Talk-Star-Citizen-and-the-State-of-the-Company?utm_source=latest&utm_medium=index_carousel&utm_campaign=all

is pretty much the same. I honestly can't say which one I read first but I'm really sure I read one of them before this comment on the thread (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=90080.msg1797078#msg1797078) by Aesaar where the first discussion of legal action against The Escapist appears. 

That said, it's a pretty minor point cause if The Escapist haven't changed it by now it obviously stands for their point of view regarding legal action regardless of whether or not it was written before that threat was made. I've only really bothered to try to argue when I saw the message in the hope someone else saw it at the same time I did and can prove to me that I wasn't imagining it.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 06, 2015, 01:00:27 pm
@Akalabeth,

That's par for the course for an unimaginative hive of people doing an unimaginative mess of a game. And the more I look into it, into its art, into its culture, into its lore, the more I despise it.

It's not "derivative". That would be bad enough, but at least it would be defensible. No. It's pretensiously derivative. Now, brilliant works often are exactly like that, they "don't borrow but steal" ideas or concepts or other things from others and call it their own, but in order to pull that off, you have to do something brilliant yourself. You have to create your own culture.

And I'm not seeing that here. Just a collection of pastiche on top of pastiche shiny things.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 06, 2015, 01:08:28 pm
Here's the rough timeline as I understand it:
1. Escapist publishes article about Derek Smart
2. Week later, escapist publishes second article featuring interviews from CIG employees; Roberts response is lost int he spam folder (allegedly)
3. Roberts posts his reply and a 5-page response on Star Citizen
4. Article with CIG Employees is updated with relevant responses from Roberts
5. Following day, Escapist publishes article vetting their sources
6. Escapist discusses Star Citizen in a podcast and reveals additional information.
7. Star Citizen publishes a legal response / threat letter
8. Escapist updates the articles for the vetting and the employee interviews to include their response and position after the legal threats.  The vetting article is brought back onto the front page.

Derek Smart
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/features/14695-Star-Citizen-Controversy-Reaches-a-Boiling-Point

Employee Inteview
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/video-games/features/14715-CIG-Employees-Talk-Star-Citizen-and-the-State-of-the-Company

Vetting Sources
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/video-games/14727-The-Escapist-Explains-Its-Star-Citizen-Sources-Vetting-and-Respo

Podcast
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/escapist-podcast/57500-Crowdfunding-Podcast

Chris Robert's responses / Legal letter / etcetera:
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/14979-Chairmans-Response-To-The-Escapist
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: deathspeed on October 06, 2015, 01:42:59 pm
As someone who frequently struggles to finish large projects, I know well the travails of the over-promise.

Star Citizen could have been managed by me.  That is all.

You have my vote!
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on October 06, 2015, 05:13:05 pm
In other news: CitizenCon rumors, courtesy of Beer4TheBeerGod, Something Awful thread, direct quote:

EDIT: Beer4TheBeerGod quoting Derek Smart.

Quote
1.They are going to parade all the A-List actors – all of whom cost a ton of money – for SQ42. This despite the fact that that stand-alone game is reported to be almost fifteen months away.
2.They are going to show the opening cut-scene sequence for SQ42 with Gary Oldman giving his speech, someone flying and landing, NPCs waving etc.
3.They are going to show Star Marine. Again. It’s still a mess – and nowhere ready for production release. Reports tell me that if it gets released before year end, it would be a miracle.
4.They are going to show multi-crew. Again. Problem now is that, as of the last report I got, it doesn’t run smoothly at all. And so they are now running the demo on super computers with 16 cores, loads of memory etc. Again, not production release ready.

Holy ****. If they seriously don't release a single ****ing thing on Saturday, and instead just show a bunch of actors and demo **** with no timetable... yeah that's going to warrant a refund.

For reference, Beer4TheBeerGod is basically the SA insider to the Star Citizen community.  I don't mean he's a studio member, but he's a fairly prominent community member.  I don't think anyone else has had more questions answered by CR in the 10 For the Chairman videos, and not many people outside of CIG itself are better informed about the game at this point.  He's the same guy who wrote that huge list of questions I posted on the first page of this thread.

If these are true and CIG don't release anything at CitizenCon, that's just... wow.  Even I wasn't that pessimistic.  I at least thought they'd have managed to make a basic FPS out of CryEngine by now.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Falcon on October 06, 2015, 05:46:22 pm
New Derek Smart blog post out: http://www.dereksmart.org/2015/10/star-citizen-the-endgame/ (http://www.dereksmart.org/2015/10/star-citizen-the-endgame/)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 06, 2015, 06:28:50 pm
That Derek Smart's a smart guy. Think his comments about Robert's "reply" are pretty apt with regards to it being an attempt to deflect attention from the issue by associating the escapist & its author with GG and/or Derek Smart.  The sad thing is that a lot of CIG supporters eat that **** up in spoonfuls.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on October 06, 2015, 08:18:02 pm
Much to my dismay
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 07, 2015, 01:43:02 am
That beer4thebeer "insider quote" is a direct transcript from Derek's blog.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on October 07, 2015, 02:08:33 am
Never said it was an insider quote.  I said Beer4TheBeerGod was SA's community insider.  As in he's a very well informed RSI community member who posts in the SA thread a lot.  If you have a serious question about SC, he'll answer it, provided the answer was given to the community at some point.  Saves the rest of us needing to go through the ****hole that is the RSI forums.

I missed the Derek Smart post, so I assumed he'd gotten it from someone on RSI.  Guess not.

But that it's Derek Smart posting it adds a lot of credibility.  He's been very accurate about short term CIG happenings.  All the recent departures/firings since Alex Mayberry were called by him long before CIG or even the people being fired mentioned anything.  He's clearly got people inside CIG feeding him information.

Quote from: Derek Smart
If what he said was true, that if funding stopped that he could still finish the game, go ahead and call him on that. STOP funding the project. Test him.
This is actually a very reasonable request.  Probably why the RSI cultists will never do it.  These are people who proudly bought ships for the explicit purpose of spiting Derek Smart and The Escapist.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: headdie on October 07, 2015, 03:46:42 am
I must admit I have for the longest time leant towards the Chris Roberts camp but after the Escapist article and some of the more analytical media coverage surrounding events, it is my sad position to find myself increasingly behind Derek's investigation and calls for information to be made public.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 07, 2015, 03:51:58 am
Well I read you (Aesaar) saying it was a quote from "this guy" who happens to be your SA "insider guy"... I was just clarifying though, I actually think Derek posted a very powerful blog post there. We are slowly reaching a moment of truth in SC....


Also. A 20 THOUSAND DOLLARS coffee machine? That's amazing. Absolutely "Next Gen" technological material right the **** there.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on October 07, 2015, 03:54:29 am
For your information, there was no plan to release anything at CitizenCon, the con is only to show the progress, any releases were planned some time after the con. How soon that will happen is another matter, tough..
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on October 07, 2015, 04:23:28 am
Yeah, they're not releasing anything; it'll just be more demos. Which means they're doomed: the vultures are circling and they desperately need a decisive sign of progress.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on October 07, 2015, 04:27:38 am
For your information, there was no plan to release anything at CitizenCon, the con is only to show the progress, any releases were planned some time after the con. How soon that will happen is another matter, tough..
This would be a lot more compelling if, at Gamescom, CIG hadn't said they planned to release the FPS module before the end of September.  So you're right.  They didn't plan to release anything at CitizenCon.  They planned to release something before CitizenCon.  And they failed.

Just because it's become standard procedure to expect CIG to miss their own deadlines doesn't mean it isn't a bad sign.

CitizenCon would be the best place to release something.  That they aren't going to isn't because they don't want to, but because they can't.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Admiral MS on October 07, 2015, 07:07:50 am
Having backed at the very beginning and now looking at this mess is kinda frustrating. Whatever they promised during the first crowdfunding seemed reasonable and doable given a certain amount of funding. Now I see tons of promised features, many extended deadlines for whatever reason and way too much insulting coming from the CEO (seriously, why?) and his "enemies". Apparently they changed the terms of service and I have no rights for whatsoever anyway. As in CIG could blow it hard and then laugh at their backers.

What surprises me is that if I were a good german only reading german game news sites the world would be fine. Nearly all of them are in favour CIG and you are hard pressed to find criticism anywhere, be it in the articles or the comment sections.

At least I didn't sink much money in it and in the end I'll get my entertainement one way or another: Either I can play a game that at least fufills some of ambitions or I can watch the huge ****storm when all the convinced followers realize that they got tricked :lol:
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 07, 2015, 12:07:57 pm
Hey look at the brightside, just like Minecon if you attend Citizencon you will get an exclusive digital conent! But instead of a cape for your character, you'll get a digital poster for your Hangar!!

Except, unlike Minecon anyone who doesn't attend can also just poney up some more cash and buy it from the online store.


At this point if the financial rumours are true CIG should probably just double down on one module and get it finished and out the door so they can start selling it and bringing in some more money to finish the other modules.  Technically they're already sort of selling it anyway but if it's actually released and reviews at least mediocre it should bring in some more sales from those who want a finished product.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: headdie on October 07, 2015, 12:15:11 pm
Hey look at the brightside, just like Minecon if you attend Citizencon you will get an exclusive digital conent! But instead of a cape for your character, you'll get a digital poster for your Hangar!!

Except, unlike Minecon anyone who doesn't attend can also just poney up some more cash and buy it from the online store.


At this point if the financial rumours are true CIG should probably just double down on one module and get it finished and out the door so they can start selling it and bringing in some more money to finish the other modules.  Technically they're already sort of selling it anyway but if it's actually released and reviews at least mediocre it should bring in some more sales from those who want a finished product.

While it would stoke up the core supporter base, releasing a module given the current media climate which performs less than amazingly could easily do more damage than good as it would only serve to provide the detractors with a new salvo to aim back at the project.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 07, 2015, 01:09:35 pm
Or maybe Microsoft will buy out his company again, down-scale the graphics and throw it on xbox one to compete with PS4's No Man's Sky hahaha. That would be the height of irony.

Either way even if they focused on one finished module it probably would come out next year at the earliest when maybe it would have a better reception.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on October 09, 2015, 04:41:37 am
Beer4TheBeerGod is my hero.

Quote from: https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/comment/5712126/#Comment_5712126
Quote
@Beer, let me underscore what i've arleady said - I've consider you to be well-spoken and often (though not always) forthright and honest.

I do believe you mistake "credibility" with "popularity" in regards to your presence and actions on the SA forums. Where I am challenged is that, even with the "goon glasses" on and understanding full well the operating culture of SA, your aggressive pursuit of damaging the game through your PSA for refunds, how to type them up to customer service, etc. smacks of deep hubris on your part in terms of maximum damage done to a group of people who are trying very hard to make a great game.

It's one thing to be opposed to an idea. It's completely understandable to be vocal and consistent with criticism of the developers(mad props for someone who can form and defend an opinion). I may support CIG more than you do, and I may have an easier time holding them to a more relaxed "be good, but I allow you to make mistakes" level of accountability than you do, but I don't begrudge you your perspective. I just don't agree with it.

I have been exceedingly consistent over the years in my strong belief in, and full support of CIG, I'm as passionate about my perspectives as you are yours. That's the nature of debate, varying opinions and value assessments, and all manner of things that differentiate people. Nothing wrong with your perspective. Equally, nothing wrong with mine. We are both likely right to degrees, and history will bear that out.

However ...

To aggressively pursue a plan to damage the funding of the game by enabling and encouraging backers to pursue refunds cannot be disguised - it is an agenda, by any name or  attempt to deflect it. It isn't feedback; it isn't discussion; it isn't strongly worded dissent. It is intended to do real damage, not only to CIG, but to the folks who work there and rely on employment to feed families' and I take extreme exception to it.

That is why I will be relentless to point this out and shed some light on the truth. It's nothing personal - I do sincerely like you, save this one character flaw that you are resistant to acknowledge and address. As such, I'm going to challenge you when you move out of the realm of intellectually honest debate, and into the fear mongering that furthers your agenda.

My agenda is to defend what is fair and right - that CIG be given the benefit of the doubt until such a time that concrete evidence emerges and ends the debate - to avoid the fear mongering intended to do damage, from the suspect commentary from "anonymous CS1-CS7", from a story with a growing list of murky inconsistencies that to any reasonable adult throw the entirety of the hastily-assembled attack into severe question. It is much more plausible based on salient facts that the allegations are fabricated, inflated and enhanced versus the "evidence" that suggests all of the issues alleged. And Derek Smart - as it is universally accepted that he is among - if not the - worst game developers of all time with a terrible track record at success - to support him takes a certain moral flexibility, and for intelligent folks, doesn't reflect well on you. You know this. That you don't care is unfortunate. Be careful how far you fall, sometimes you only see it looking back...

I've shared a window into what you are involved in, in a public forum but not related to these boards - that's my PSA for the folks here. I'll let others read up and make their mind up. I advocate for informed, educated decision-making, and I'll pursue my agenda for as long as it takes to offset the disingenuous attempts to do real world damage to people who's livelihoods I happen to care about.

Ultimately - and because I'm a positive, optimistic person - I see the silver lining in the long term outcome of all this. Those that do pursue a refund based on all this drek? Most of them weren't cut out for what Star Citizen is destined to be, so it's win/win. I don't want to debate how their illusions were shattered; the point I'm trying to make is agnostic to the "why". Simply stated, if they take the "out", then the remaining community becomes one member more united, and one less member divided; and the person who exits gets a pass and can move on to the next great adventure / drama.

Optimism is cool like that - I recommend it to anyone :)

$90,000,000. Ninety. Million. Dollars. Four times the original asking price of the game. For that we have received a deeply flawed arena fighting game and a glorified chat room. For that we have received three years of broken promises, incompetence, and most recently childish and frankly pitiful behavior on the part of CIG's executives. CIG has done nothing to suggest they have been good stewards of our money, and if you don't find their continued inability to deliver on a basic game to be "concrete evidence" then frankly you will never find it.

If me providing guidance on how disgruntled backers can get their money back causes CIG to lose money then I consider that a success. I did not create the ill will that motivated those people to seek out refunds. I did not break the promises that lead to them making that request. That all lies at the feet of @croberts68, and he's more than welcome to come here and defend his incompetence and mistakes. Perhaps for once he can accept responsibility for his numerous failures.

If a few backers getting refunds does damage to the employees of CIG then those people were already doomed. CIG's coffers should be overflowing with cash. CIG should have a massive contingency fund capable of paying for the remainder of development even if they don't receive another dollar. CIG should be fully aware of their burn rate, the remaining workload, and have a plan to completion. If they don't, if backers getting refunds does anything other than send a message that CIG's actions are unacceptable and things need to change, then frankly this whole argument is moot because CIG is screwed.

Look, I want this stupid game to come out. I want to have an awesome time with my friends running around blowing up helpless merchants and boarding ships. But I have absolutely no faith whatsoever in CIG's ability to produce a viable product or meet expectations and frankly I don't think they even care. Actions speak louder than words, and there is no action with more impact than demanding your money back. Maybe if CIG sees enough of them then they'll actually change.

Incidentally there's nothing preventing those people from buying the game once again and coming back. I mean I guess CIG could not take their money, but they're not stupid.

Also, this post is probably the one that got him permabanned.  For trolling.  That's a sign that development is doing fine, right?  Banning even well-spoken dissenters?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on October 09, 2015, 04:55:02 am
I honestly did not expect things to go to **** this quickly.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on October 09, 2015, 07:44:21 am
Quote
Those that do pursue a refund based on all this drek? Most of them weren't cut out for what Star Citizen is destined to be, so it's win/win.
What the lol
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 09, 2015, 09:13:25 am
He's right if you think about it. They are not cut out to be shat on their faces. They actually have some level of self-worth.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Turambar on October 09, 2015, 09:57:54 am
Quote
Those that do pursue a refund based on all this drek? Most of them weren't cut out for what Star Citizen is destined to be, so it's win/win.
What the lol
He's right if you think about it. They are not cut out to be shat on their faces. They actually have some level of self-worth.

These poor unimaginative peasants can't conceive of a video game that's a little bigger than usual.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 09, 2015, 10:40:02 am
Han Solo once said, I don't know, I can imagine quite a bit.

Like him, I can imagine quite a big game too. In fact, I can imagine a game so big, so immersive, so amazing, so incredible in all of its traits and characteristics, that in order to make it it would actually take a decade or more to do it, and a hell of a lot more than 90 million dollars.

Chris Roberts perhaps thought that he could substitute all those needs with a 20.000 dollar coffee machine. I'm a tad skeptical. There's only so much caffeine can do, even one as expensive as that.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Admiral MS on October 09, 2015, 11:46:35 am
Like him, I can imagine quite a big game too. In fact, I can imagine a game so big, so immersive, so amazing, so incredible in all of its traits and characteristics, that in order to make it it would actually take a decade or more to do it, and a hell of a lot more than 90 million dollars.
For me it sounds like they want the sandbox, trade, contract, corporation and industry of EVE, the space combat gameplay of Freespace, Wing Commander or some similar game, some stuff from E:D (never played it but it seemed to share some goals) and the FPS elements of whatever modern more or less open sci-fi shooter with vehicles there is (I haven't played any shooter for ages). All of that in AAA quality and somehow combined without perceived borders between the modes. Oh and wasn't this thing supposed to be moddable and people should be able to run their own servers? I wonder who can pay for that server infrastructure and the dev team to create a mod for it.
Yeah, I guess with 3-4 times the funding and another 4-5 years development time combined with really good management they might be able to get a game out that covers the basics of what they imagined and is significantly better than 3000AD. Add another 5 years and it might be getting really good.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on October 09, 2015, 05:13:05 pm
Yeah but in 5 years it'll look dated and CR won't be satisfied so they'll have to start all their models over like they've already done once.  Lighting too, probably.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Mongoose on October 09, 2015, 08:17:42 pm
An interesting little tangent: I wandered over to the Descent: Underground (the new Kickstarted game for those not in the know) forums, and as one would expect they had a thread going about this whole thing.  Someone there posted this screencap (http://i.imgur.com/XFIM3TH.png), apparently from Derek Smart's blog comments.  Note his claim that he "knows things" and that the Descent: Underground project is a "royal cluster****" ready to "collapse any day now."  Also note that yesterday, Descendent Studios opened up their pre-alpha builds to most higher backer tiers ahead of schedule, and that I was able to sit down and play it myself last night.  It is still very much in the pre-alpha phase, and the only part of the game available is random queue-matching multiplayer just for the sake of stress-testing, but it is already a fully-functional game.  I was flying several different ships, using updated versions of all the classic Descent weapons, and playing in multiple game modes.  It's already far closer to a fully-realized product than Star Citizen has ever been, or likely will ever be.  So while I think there is definitely something to this whole situation, as it is now well beyond a single person's unsourced accusations, let us not forget that Derek Smart has long been in the habit of peddling excessive amounts of bull****.

On a related note, apparently Wingman, the Descent: Underground project head, was banned from the official Star Citizen chat the other day for daring to answer people's questions about his own project.  Keep in mind that Wingman was originally an integral part of the CIG team and played a major role in the campaign's initial success; as far as I can tell he is still very well-liked amongst the SC community, many of whom signed on to support his own Kickstarter.  The ban was rescinded not too long after, but it really makes you question how the hell things are run in that community.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 09, 2015, 10:07:18 pm
Yeah Derek Smart is probably full of **** on some occasions though I do have to question people just going in an ragging on the guy, especially for a 20 year old game.  Also while the Descent Underground guy is free to have an opinion, why is someone else dragging his opinion onto DS's blog?

And Battlecruiser 3000? Don't people know he's released like 6 games since then? Some of which scored moderately well (75-78 according to PC gamer)

Makes about as much sense as people giving Chris Robert's credit for Wing Commander.  Those games are old.

Didn't people learn from watching the new Star Wars? Just because a guy made a good thing 20 years ago doesn't mean the thing he makes today won't be ****.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on October 09, 2015, 10:33:57 pm
And Battlecruiser 3000? Don't people know he's released like 6 games since then? Some of which scored moderately well (75-78 according to PC gamer)
The games he released after are mostly just remakes of Battlecruiser 3000AD that fail to actually result in an actual game. His most recent project is an MMO (reusing the same ****ty assets from his last BC3000 remake) that appears to have had an all-time peak of... 116 players. 6 months ago. Apparently that has dropped, since then, to a peak of 2 players over the past twenty-four hours.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 09, 2015, 11:08:02 pm
Yeah he seems to be a one-trick pony, trying to make the same game year after year and sometimes it's polished enough to get a decent rating but apparently the latest one, Line of Defense, is a bit garbage though it is in Early Access as well.

Personally if I ever get into game development I hope to make a different sort of game every time. Much like the guy who made Flotilla and Atom Zombie Smasher.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on October 10, 2015, 11:07:48 am
CitizenCon presentation shall begin in two hours. Lets gather round following URL and hear the word of our lord and savior Christ Roberts:

http://www.twitch.tv/StarCitizen
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: -Joshua- on October 10, 2015, 02:24:06 pm
And Battlecruiser 3000? Don't people know he's released like 6 games since then? Some of which scored moderately well (75-78 according to PC gamer)
The games he released after are mostly just remakes of Battlecruiser 3000AD that fail to actually result in an actual game. His most recent project is an MMO (reusing the same ****ty assets from his last BC3000 remake) that appears to have had an all-time peak of... 116 players. 6 months ago. Apparently that has dropped, since then, to a peak of 2 players over the past twenty-four hours.

It should be noted that the 116 players was due to a listing error making the game free for all :D
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 10, 2015, 02:33:45 pm
It's life right now! Oh look it starts with his wife giving this speech on how she worked her ass off in this, bla bla bla.

"This is much more than a triple A game." Then she goes on on saying how it's about meaning and friendships and so on. ****ing hell, it's a cult.

"... if you really believe you're part of something bigger ..."
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: newman on October 10, 2015, 04:20:00 pm
Space Ship One's development cost 25 million dollars before it flew for the first time back in 2004. Cost of Star Citizen so far, 90 million $. So it takes 65 million less to actually go to space than to have a delayed, questionable-if-ever-playable space sim.

When they started crowdfunding they were going on how great it was that it allows them to avoid publishers and deliver the best game ever straight to the player. Well, CR demonstrated that sometimes, publishers keeping you inside certain limits can be a good thing. Particularly if you have no control over your ambitions and aren't on good speaking terms with reality :)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on October 10, 2015, 04:56:28 pm
Those numbers of CIG employees over time are pretty telling if true. It shows that work on SC really took off only in 2014 and later. I dont think the game is going to be completed anytime soon. Still needs at least two years. Doesnt bother me, good things take time, but it will provide plenty of ammo to detractors.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on October 10, 2015, 05:27:10 pm
It was unbelievable how they managed to go through so much Squadron 42 promo material without showing any indication that this will be a game where you fly a space fighter, fighting in space. As far as I can tell it's a very dodgy walking simulator set in some spare levels from the last 10 years of sci-fi shooters.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Dragon on October 10, 2015, 05:29:11 pm
Space Ship One's development cost 25 million dollars before it flew for the first time back in 2004. Cost of Star Citizen so far, 90 million $. So it takes 65 million less to actually go to space than to have a delayed, questionable-if-ever-playable space sim.
I think that the thing was that Virgin Galactic didn't have 90 million $ on hand. :) If they did, they might have tried to go for an airliner-sized ship that would go to orbit and have a huge cargobay for lifting payloads along with the crew... I get a feeling that Roberts has much, much more money that he can handle management of. I do hope this merely delays the game, but I've seen projects completely bogged down by "too much of a good thing". Too much money, too large of a scope, too many people, too great expectations. Great things often started small and gradually got big, starting big is more likely to turn into an unmanageable mess.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on October 10, 2015, 06:04:59 pm
The fact the CIG are putting their military ships on sale say a lot about their financial situation. Those have always been their most popular ones.

Especially the Idris, which isn't even being sold in limited quantities like it was all the previous times it was available (well, except for the 5000$ pack).

They NEED money right now. If this sale goes badly (which it probably won't), they're done. They may be done anyway. There's only so much you can milk your cult for, probably why they also added a referral program at the same time. They need new money.

I say on sale, but really it's 2500USD (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/pledge/Combos/Armada-Pack). It only qualifies as a sale because it's cheaper than the individual packages.  Also, packages that were originally offered as "limited time only will never be sold again".


Gameplay-wise, there was nothing shown at CitizenCon that we didn't see at Gamescom.  Most of the presentation was CR talking about how SQ42 has 10 hours of cutscenes (in a 30 mission campaign), and then CIG trying to convince you that they invented motion capture.  It's really obvious that Chris would prefer to make movies.  He's thrown more money at SQ42 than at his ludicrously ambitious persistent universe.

And then at the end they showed the opening scene of Starlancer, but with shinier graphics (that either look a bit dated or uncanny valley [those faces]).


The Sabre/Vindicator/POTATO is a very nice-looking ship.  About time they made another good one to go alongside the Gladius.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: newman on October 11, 2015, 04:04:58 am
Gameplay-wise, there was nothing shown at CitizenCon that we didn't see at Gamescom.  Most of the presentation was CR talking about how SQ42 has 10 hours of cutscenes (in a 30 mission campaign), and then CIG trying to convince you that they invented motion capture.  It's really obvious that Chris would prefer to make movies.  He's thrown more money at SQ42 than at his ludicrously ambitious persistent universe.

He's always leaned more towards a cinematic than gameplay experience. This is what the Wing Commander games stood out for - immersion, story, feeling like you're in this sci fi movie; that was all fine, but gameplay? There were far, far better space shooter / sim games out there at all times when it comes to sheer gameplay / flight model. However he still made games that were kinda fun in the end.

The problem is, the success of crowdfunding and all that money SC managed to gather pretty much had an effect of supercharging his natural tendencies. Gameplay is obviously last on his list of priorities; in a situation where many people are complaining about the pretty bad arena dogfighting module, star marine being endlessly delayed and what is out there is a very small buggy mess, and pretty much in a state of vaporware, and generally calling SC "the best spaceship hangar sim ever made", he's throwing money at actors, hiring linguists to make new languages for the game, and other flash vs substance stuff like that.

There will be a point when his "whale" supporters that are throwing thousands of $ on his spaceships will begin asking for refunds one by one, and this thing will spiral out of control.

I'll be playing Elite: Dangerous in the mean time. It may not have a bunch of well known actors in it, it may not be promising to deliver everything and the kitchen sink at once, but right now this game is surviving based on it's own sales, and that of it's upcoming expansion that will open up planetary landing to us, and bring other stuff to the table - it's not surviving based on soap bubble promises and offering me spaceships for thousands of dollars. It also lets me hop into my exploration ship and go explore a 1:1, 400 billion star galaxy. And while it's not without it's faults, it ticks many boxes, has a realistic yet ambitious scope, and I believe that after a few expansions it will be way closer to the kind of game Chris Roberts described when they started Star Citizen than SC will ever get. And when I fly with my HOTAS, it does not make my HOTAS act like it was a mouse. That's kinda nice too, arena commander's flight model is atrocious.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Col. Fishguts on October 11, 2015, 05:37:03 am
I don't want to watch through hours of CR droning about how everything is great.
Is there a good summary somewhere as to what has been shown and what the current release targets for Star Marine / Baby PU are?
Also, how accurate were Derek Smart's predictions about the presentation?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 11, 2015, 05:42:16 am
AFAICT, he was 100% right. But I would also like to see some reliable summary of what went down. Could only watch first few minutes before sleeping of boredom.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Axem on October 11, 2015, 09:17:05 am
Worry not, Spoon, Hades and I, some foul and skeptic minded people, managed to watch the whole thing and kept our wits about by mocking everything (cause its fun!). Here's a brief rundown from what I gathered in the chat log.


Shout out to Hades for those image links (that first one was an actual image from the stream)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on October 11, 2015, 09:26:38 am
"Star Citizen is, and always will be, more than a AAA game. So much more. Star Citizen speaks to the pure essence of humanity and the purpose of human beings and I firmly believe this is why there are so many passionate people on both sides of the fence."

notacult

Quote
The number 2016 was seen, may indicate years until release(?????)

(http://i.somethingawful.com/u/garbageday/2014/vince.gif)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on October 11, 2015, 09:31:48 am
Watching and breaking down that stream was the most fun I've had so far from my 24 euro pledge.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Col. Fishguts on October 11, 2015, 10:09:32 am
Thanks for the recap :)

Just watched Gary Oldman's speech... that cringe-worthy writing... yup, it's definitely going to be a Chris Roberts game :/
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Mongoose on October 11, 2015, 10:20:28 am
and other subtle features needed for a space sim (http://i.imgur.com/Hj5oy02.jpg)
Baron Harkonnen says wut
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: newman on October 11, 2015, 10:49:18 am
Worry not, Spoon, Hades and I, some foul and skeptic minded people, managed to watch the whole thing and kept our wits about by mocking everything (cause its fun!). Here's a brief rundown from what I gathered in the chat log.

  • Flowers for Sandi
  • Millions of kilometers of space
  • Immersive
  • Mostly rehashed Crusader v0 gameplay demo
  • Immersive star map where Alpha Centauri is not the closest star to Sol
  • "Private" "lounge" for your friends to hang out and drink immersive alcoholic beverages (and fishtanks)
  • Saitek getting on the money train with custom branded joysticks
  • Trapezoidal marketing referral bonus program (get 5 referrals and get a bigger fish tank, get 10 and get a gold skin for a ship!)
  • Actually not bad looking fighter (SabrePotato)
  • Immersive
  • Squadron 42, wwwhaaat???
  • Independence day and/or 9/11 style speech intro cutscene by Gary Oldman set in a Space Parliament
  • Gary Oldman still talking
  • Gary Oldman barely blinking
  • Gary Oldman still talking raspily
  • A-List Hollywood actor list
  • And Sandi
  • Amazing facial feature technology including blood flow, wrinkle maps, pupil dilation and other subtle features needed for a space sim (http://i.imgur.com/Hj5oy02.jpg)
  • Immersive
  • Tactical combat everywhere! Even on the ground!
  • Ships on SALE!!!!
  • 90 million page script (Still not as long as BP aaaaayyyyy)
  • 120 hours of mo cap recorded, 10 hours kept for the game
  • Actors being paid to praise the mo cap (http://i.imgur.com/dVRvkkL.png)
  • 66 day shooting schedule
  • Immersive
  • Huge 250m Frigate
  • Starlancer opening recreation with an amazing array of UK accents
  • Corridor walking simulator
  • Sitting in a briefing room and hearing the history of your ship simulator
  • The number 2016 was seen, may indicate years until release(?????)
  • Immersive birthday cake for SC brought out, happy birthday is cringly sung
  • Chris Roberts can't cut a cake
  • Immersion

Shout out to Hades for those image links (that first one was an actual image from the stream)

Oh Axem, I missed your posts man :) But do you think it will be immersive? I don't think they mentioned this point enough.

Immersion. Immersive. Immersion.

I'm sure any minor flaws in gameplay (not really a necessary feature for a game) could easily be rectified by hiring Bono to do a concert when SC launches. Provided Bono will still be alive by then. I'm also glad they're spending all that time and money on making all those hours of cutscenes for Squadron 42. Because in 2015 everyone is still totally impressed by full motion video cutscenes (it's like a movie but in a game - what magic is this? I'm sure glad I bought all 4MB of RAM and a color monitor now..) and nobody will ever skip them.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Axem on October 11, 2015, 11:24:44 am
If they mo cap the Bono concert, they won't need to worry about needing him alive when the game comes out. First ever immersive concert done in CryEngine 3!
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: newman on October 11, 2015, 11:42:44 am
If they mo cap the Bono concert, they won't need to worry about needing him alive when the game comes out. First ever immersive concert done in CryEngine 18!

Fixed that for you, for realism's sake :)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: GhylTarvoke on October 11, 2015, 01:20:57 pm
On a related note, apparently Wingman, the Descent: Underground project head, was banned from the official Star Citizen chat the other day for daring to answer people's questions about his own project.  Keep in mind that Wingman was originally an integral part of the CIG team and played a major role in the campaign's initial success; as far as I can tell he is still very well-liked amongst the SC community, many of whom signed on to support his own Kickstarter.  The ban was rescinded not too long after, but it really makes you question how the hell things are run in that community.
It's life right now! Oh look it starts with his wife giving this speech on how she worked her ass off in this, bla bla bla.

"This is much more than a triple A game." Then she goes on on saying how it's about meaning and friendships and so on. ****ing hell, it's a cult.

"... if you really believe you're part of something bigger ..."
Space Ship One's development cost 25 million dollars before it flew for the first time back in 2004. Cost of Star Citizen so far, 90 million $. So it takes 65 million less to actually go to space than to have a delayed, questionable-if-ever-playable space sim.
The fact the CIG are putting their military ships on sale say a lot about their financial situation. Those have always been their most popular ones.

Especially the Idris, which isn't even being sold in limited quantities like it was all the previous times it was available (well, except for the 5000$ pack).

They NEED money right now. If this sale goes badly (which it probably won't), they're done. They may be done anyway. There's only so much you can milk your cult for, probably why they also added a referral program at the same time. They need new money.

I say on sale, but really it's 2500USD (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/pledge/Combos/Armada-Pack). It only qualifies as a sale because it's cheaper than the individual packages.  Also, packages that were originally offered as "limited time only will never be sold again".
"Star Citizen is, and always will be, more than a AAA game. So much more. Star Citizen speaks to the pure essence of humanity and the purpose of human beings and I firmly believe this is why there are so many passionate people on both sides of the fence."

I'm finally convinced. This whole thing reeks of dishonesty, which is quite sad.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 12, 2015, 03:55:58 am
"Star Citizen is, and always will be, more than a AAA game. So much more. Star Citizen speaks to the pure essence of humanity and the purpose of human beings and I firmly believe this is why there are so many passionate people on both sides of the fence."

Holy **** do they know they're making a video game? Not curing cancer, helping refugees or colonizing mars.   
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: newman on October 12, 2015, 04:35:34 am
"Star Citizen is, and always will be, more than a AAA game. So much more. Star Citizen speaks to the pure essence of humanity and the purpose of human beings and I firmly believe this is why there are so many passionate people on both sides of the fence."

Holy **** do they know they're making a video game? Not curing cancer, helping refugees or colonizing mars.   

I know, right? The funny thing is that their rhetoric was a bit like that from day 1, before crowd funding even began, back when they were handing out those "gold plates" or whatever they were called. I found the whole phrasing a bit creepy and cult like back then, but then at that time there was nothing on the radar when it came to space sims, a then-dead (or more accurately, dormant) genre, so I was willing to write this off to a new project run by people who may not understand marketing very well, but who knows if they do well on crowd funding..

But I see my initial instincts were right. The whole rhetoric is similar to those pyramid scheme salesmen being all suspiciously enthusiastic about the product they're selling without ever getting too specific about anything. Much like CR keeps being religiously enthusiastic about SC, selling ships, talking about how great it's going to be for years without ever showing a decent bit of gameplay, the only thing that matters in the end.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 12, 2015, 05:36:40 am
I could (and I will) join the fray in mocking these cultist statements (and btw, thank you Axem, that was a neat proper summary :D), but there's something else here at play.

This was not "just a game", but the ultimate promise of the most ultimate, amazing "Star Wariesque" escapist fantasy one could ever buy. Think on it. Some people who are just going through their motions, bored as **** about their lifes, stressed as hell with their day to day shenanigans, knowing fully well they'll never experience a truly "space-esque" adventure in their life-times (and still yearning for it), suddenly got promised the most "IMMERSIVE" Star Wars-esque experience evah.

The game was boring as **** as presented. You have to go through boring hallways, boring elevators, get to your "posts" and basically see walls and corridors and small windows with terrible line of sight towards what you're supposed to "shoot" (holy **** isn't Freespace 2's lack of "cockpit visuals" just an amazing feature?!?), you have to go through repair stations and land on them and do all sorts of "truck simulator" ****. The boringness of the game is not a "bug", it's a feature. It adds to its own "believability".

But that's the point. The point is not to create a "fun game", the game is not fun at all. The point is to create this fantasy on these people's heads that they can actually live some sort of alternative "redshirt" life on their PC. With their Occulus. The promise is to create Star Second Life Citizen.

So they are indeed trying to build a dream of their own. They will probably fail spectacularly, and with a lot of people's savings going down the well.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: GhylTarvoke on October 12, 2015, 07:49:39 am
How on earth was Star Citizen's crowdfunding campaign so record-breaking? I can't wrap my mind around it.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: -Joshua- on October 12, 2015, 08:20:47 am
How on earth was Star Citizen's crowdfunding campaign so record-breaking? I can't wrap my mind around it.

It was from before we had space sims.
Or, more specifically, space sims with tech from this decade.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on October 12, 2015, 09:02:02 am
How on earth was Star Citizen's crowdfunding campaign so record-breaking? I can't wrap my mind around it.

People who like space sims were starved for new content for a decade. Meanwhile this demographic cohort grew up and acquired fat disposable income. Then Chris(t) of WC fame comes along and promises salvation in the form of not just any space sim, but the "best damn space sim ever". The result? $92 million and counting..
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: headdie on October 12, 2015, 09:12:00 am
How on earth was Star Citizen's crowdfunding campaign so record-breaking? I can't wrap my mind around it.

People who like space sims were starved for new content for a decade. Meanwhile this demographic cohort grew up and acquired fat disposable income. Then Chris(t) of WC fame comes along and promises salvation in the form of not just any space sim, but the "best damn space sim ever". The result? $92 million and counting..

Also he put on a massive media Blitzkrieg and capitalised on the novelty of crowdfunding becoming mainstream at the time he launched the bid.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on October 12, 2015, 10:12:15 am
He also sold people their dreams.  He gave people enough information to provide a framework, then let them fill in the blanks themselves, asked them what they wanted to do in the game and said "you'll be able to do that".  It doesn't matter what "that" is, you'll be able to do it.

It's why there's absolutely no way SC can measure up to expectations even if it gets released.  He's not selling a game, he's selling a dream.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 12, 2015, 10:29:24 am
Yeah but in that regard, that is unmistakable from the very best marketing. It kinda is like Steve Jobs. Here's what Bloomberg had to blurb about the subject:

Quote
Sell Dreams, Not Products
Steve Jobs doesn’t sell computers. He sells the promise of a better world. True evangelists are driven by a messianic zeal to create new experiences. When Jobs introduced the iPod in 2001, he said, "In our own small way, we’re going to make the world a better place." Where most people see the iPod as a music player, Jobs presents it as tool to enrich people’s lives. Of course, it’s important to have great products. But passion, enthusiasm, and a sense of purpose beyond the actual product will set you and your company apart.

But he was also fond of saying "Real artists ship". And that's the part that is failing. Dreams can carry many mistakes and deadline delays, but for how long?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: newman on October 12, 2015, 10:32:44 am
He also sold people their dreams.  He gave people enough information to provide a framework, then let them fill in the blanks themselves, asked them what they wanted to do in the game and said "you'll be able to do that".  It doesn't matter what "that" is, you'll be able to do it.

It's why there's absolutely no way SC can measure up to expectations even if it gets released.  He's not selling a game, he's selling a dream.

I agree. I also think it goes further than that; I'm not sure SC can even muster a playable release that comes close to the scope of what they promised. You see, when you go to kickstarter and come up with an amount you need, you're basically telling the world "I need this much, minimum, to make this - if I don't hit that goal it's not getting made, if I go over it it's getting made with these extra bells and whistles".

Star Citizen's original KS goal was 500,000$. This was to make the basic game without too many bells and whistles; however, the amount raised on KS was over 4 times that, forcing them to literally make up new stretch goals. At this point they basically made a promise to make the game of every scifi fan's dreams for 2 million $. Whether or not that was realistic, this is what they promised.

Years later, their online store has made their total profits 184 times that of the original KS goal. Game is overdue, and there is nothing even remotely resembling a game that's shaping up towards something playable. It's the finest grade smoke combined with diamond cut deluxe mirrors; but it's still smoke and mirrors.

At this point I doubt this thing can even release as something that's not a horrible mess with Chris Roberts at the helm. Either he steps down to some honorary title that removes him from a position where he can make decisions, or I doubt this thing will even release as anything resembling what they described when they begun crowdfunding.

I don't think this was a con job, at least not an intentional one; however the end result, I suspect, will be the same as it was. It's not even a matter of time and money anymore - they need someone in charge who will put gameplay back to priority one and stop wasting money on actors, CGI cutscenes, and hiring linguists to invent new languages for Star Citizen. I think somewhere down the line Chris Roberts forgot he's making a game and not an actual new universe; now completely untethered from reality I don't see how he can realistically remain in charge of a project of SC's magnitude and produce results that are measured in fun gameplay.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: headdie on October 12, 2015, 10:40:21 am
So in other words the project needs a Publisher to fund it and reign in CR & co
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 12, 2015, 10:42:12 am
Yeah, it needs someone with a pragmatic eye and a look towards shipping an actual product. Someone with sufficient power to kick CR's in the butt and make him go away.

And that can only happen when CIG gets a finantial bailout. But by then, it might just be too late.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Lorric on October 12, 2015, 11:31:14 am
Star Citizen is strange at times. Take this video:


I frequently find some things impressive and some things like "huh?" when I watch a Star Citizen video.

Like I think the senate building is impressive, and I love the music.

Then Bishop steps up to the platform. What's with his mouth? I can open my mouth quite wide. But I looked in the mirror and my mouth opened wide is about the same as his mouth talking normally. That just isn't right! And his hair just looks wrong. The rest is very good though.

But the speech, I don't know Gary Oldman. I know he's a big deal and he's front and centre of the list of names they reel off. I looked at his filmography, there are a handful of films I've seen that he's been in but his roles don't jump out at me, he wasn't the main man in any of them.

But I thought the speech was just bad. I thought it sounded more like generic politician than great war leader. I thought the speech was just boring, with weird pauses and stop starts in it. Then they all give him this huge ovation and it just doesn't feel like they earned that. It looks great when they're all applauding him, but it doesn't feel like it merits it. I don't know how the rest of you feel, I'd be interested to know.

Like, I honestly feel the reaction here is more believable and the speech more interesting:


I watched the video where they show you around the ship:


The opening I liked a lot. And I'm definitely impressed with the interior of the ship. But the characters are just boring. Delivering uninteresting dialogue in a flat way. That guy taking you around the ship, I honestly can't tell whether the face is just wrong or the character is meant to have a disability. So while I enjoyed being walked through the ship, the characters were just uninteresting to me. Though I did like the woman you meet at the end. And it leaves me wondering, are these people voiced by some of their star studded cast of characters? Are these lines the final cut? It's really not working for me. I'm talking most games I've played with voice acting are better in that regard for me right now. Including stuff here on the site, heck, Wing Commander Saga beats Star Citizen with a stick right now in the voice work and dialogue department imo.

So I'm curious what the rest of you make of this stuff.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 12, 2015, 12:25:44 pm
That speech video has terrible music. It's just too much. And the camera work. Dizzier than The Lord of The Rings stuff. It's a shameful usage of Gary's talent, which I'm a big fan of.

Of course, the mocap is terrible, but the only bearable I've seen is from LA Noire, that sacrificed visual fidelity and "realism" in order to get more emotional expressiveness. I've yet to be amazed by any facial mocap.

Regarding the boringness of it, I've addressed that point. It's a feature, not a bug. The point is to be "immersive", and there's nothing more believable and "immersive" than boringness.

Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Lorric on October 12, 2015, 12:34:37 pm
That speech video has terrible music. It's just too much.
Oh I agree it doesn't fit, for the same reason I said the applause didn't feel earned. That music doesn't feel earned. But just by itself I really like the piece. It would work if they managed to put a genuinely impressive speech in there.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on October 12, 2015, 01:49:15 pm
Star Citizen's original KS goal was 500,000$. This was to make the basic game without too many bells and whistles; however, the amount raised on KS was over 4 times that, forcing them to literally make up new stretch goals. At this point they basically made a promise to make the game of every scifi fan's dreams for 2 million $. Whether or not that was realistic, this is what they promised.

Again, this is not true. Star Citizen original crowdfunding goal was at least $2 million, raised mostly through their site. Kickstarter was added later as a means to pledge for those who did not want to use the official site, that $500k KS goal doesnt really mean anything significant.

Then in addition to these crowdfunded $2 million, there were supposedly investors lined up to fund the game up to $20 million in total. This sum of $20 million is what SC development was originally supposed to cost. And you can realistically make quite a good AAA game with that kind of money. Maybe not good enough for Chrises ever rising ambitions, tough..
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on October 12, 2015, 02:03:08 pm
And his hair just looks wrong. The rest is very good though.

Devs have stated that new hair shader is not yet in.

That mouth tho. Star Citizen face mocap is done by 3Lateral, so I expected something like this:

https://vimeo.com/64639747

Dialogue sounds fine to me, these are soldiers off duty in routine situations talking, so the lines should be delivered in a bit of a flat and boring way.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Lorric on October 12, 2015, 02:30:57 pm
And his hair just looks wrong. The rest is very good though.

Devs have stated that new hair shader is not yet in.

That mouth tho. Star Citizen face mocap is done by 3Lateral, so I expected something like this:

https://vimeo.com/64639747

Dialogue sounds fine to me, these are soldiers off duty in routine situations talking, so the lines should be delivered in a bit of a flat and boring way.
Fair enough about the hair.

But the dialogue, surely not when you first meet them! You only get one chance to make a first impression. Compare this to when you meet people for the first time in WC3 and WC4 and even WCP. It falls well short of that.

Another thing I noticed from the speech which I want to mention which leaves me scratching my head, that's the first I've heard about the Vanduul. So we've been fighting the Vanduul for 200 years. And in all that time we've only called the attacks "raids, skirmishes and incursions." That is a terrible thing to say about them. It makes them seem so weak. It's like we've spent the last 200 years treating them as nothing more than a nuisance, and they've not done much to prove otherwise, well, until this Vega engagement in the start of the video. So it's took them 200 years to do something to make us sit up and take notice of them. It seems more like this is going to be pest control than a war for the survival of the human race. Compare that to how we get introduced to the Kilrathi and the Nephelim.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Mikes on October 12, 2015, 05:00:24 pm
And his hair just looks wrong. The rest is very good though.

Devs have stated that new hair shader is not yet in.

That mouth tho. Star Citizen face mocap is done by 3Lateral, so I expected something like this:

https://vimeo.com/64639747

Dialogue sounds fine to me, these are soldiers off duty in routine situations talking, so the lines should be delivered in a bit of a flat and boring way.
Fair enough about the hair.

But the dialogue, surely not when you first meet them! You only get one chance to make a first impression. Compare this to when you meet people for the first time in WC3 and WC4 and even WCP. It falls well short of that.

Another thing I noticed from the speech which I want to mention which leaves me scratching my head, that's the first I've heard about the Vanduul. So we've been fighting the Vanduul for 200 years. And in all that time we've only called the attacks "raids, skirmishes and incursions." That is a terrible thing to say about them. It makes them seem so weak. It's like we've spent the last 200 years treating them as nothing more than a nuisance, and they've not done much to prove otherwise, well, until this Vega engagement in the start of the video. So it's took them 200 years to do something to make us sit up and take notice of them. It seems more like this is going to be pest control than a war for the survival of the human race. Compare that to how we get introduced to the Kilrathi and the Nephelim.

/shrugs

I'll withhold judgement until we know more about the storyline.

It's all too easy to imagine several scenarios that make total sense ... like the Vanduul being some kind of society with a clan / nomad structure that has no central government or leader .... until such a leader suddenly arises and a large amount of small unorganized clans is quickly turned into a deadly threath to any other civilization .... 

Such a storyline would also allow for a main antagonist with a face.

As I said, who knows. I'd say it's way too early to tell. For all we know Squadron 42 could be some nightmarish behind enemy lines reconaissance gathering mission to find out why the Vanduul are suddenly so much more organized, aggressive and deadly than before.

It was hinted at that some part/parts of the storyline were inspired by Apocalypse now after all. /shrugs.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Lorric on October 12, 2015, 05:44:46 pm
Yeah, something like that would make a lot more sense. If in the past it had always only been but a fraction of the Vanduul, then suddenly you're either dealing with the entire race or a massive alliance of Vanduul nations / factions.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on October 12, 2015, 05:50:40 pm
As I said, who knows. I'd say it's way too early to tell. For all we know Squadron 42 could be some nightmarish behind enemy lines reconaissance gathering mission to find out why the Vanduul are suddenly so much more organized, aggressive and deadly than before.

wasn't the entire plotline leaked a few months ago
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: newman on October 13, 2015, 04:19:29 am
Star Citizen's original KS goal was 500,000$. This was to make the basic game without too many bells and whistles; however, the amount raised on KS was over 4 times that, forcing them to literally make up new stretch goals. At this point they basically made a promise to make the game of every scifi fan's dreams for 2 million $. Whether or not that was realistic, this is what they promised.

Again, this is not true. Star Citizen original crowdfunding goal was at least $2 million, raised mostly through their site. Kickstarter was added later as a means to pledge for those who did not want to use the official site, that $500k KS goal doesnt really mean anything significant.


You're right, I forgot about their own crowdfunding before KS. Still, I believe my point still stands - other sources of funding on the side, they did crowdfunding efforts and promised certain results if the community gives them this amount of cash. Community gave them even more, did not receive a game, but did receive the online store and more promises. The thing is still several times over it's projected budget with nothing playable in sight.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 13, 2015, 04:34:24 am
Also, if Chris did manage to get more funding aside from the crowdfunding, that means he's already over 100 million dollars.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: newman on October 13, 2015, 06:55:26 am
Also, if Chris did manage to get more funding aside from the crowdfunding, that means he's already over 100 million dollars.

For that kinda money he should start sending the high tier backers to the ISS :D
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on October 13, 2015, 07:15:14 am
On the SA thread they are currently investigating the possibility that Star Citizen is in fact a giant money laundering operation run by the Swedish mafia.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 13, 2015, 07:19:13 am
Something Awful is aptly named... but still that looks hilarious. Got a link?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on October 13, 2015, 07:34:41 am
3 guesses who started the rumour (http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3744337&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=419#post451357540)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on October 13, 2015, 07:34:59 am
Also, if Chris did manage to get more funding aside from the crowdfunding, that means he's already over 100 million dollars.

As far as I know, the investors were turned down after crowdfunding campaign reached $23 million, so it is all crowdfunded now.

Quote
It's all too easy to imagine several scenarios that make total sense ... like the Vanduul being some kind of society with a clan / nomad structure that has no central government or leader .... until such a leader suddenly arises and a large amount of small unorganized clans is quickly turned into a deadly threath to any other civilization ....

Id say that is not far from the truth.

http://starcitizen.wikia.com/wiki/Vanduul
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 13, 2015, 07:52:37 am
Totally not anything to do with the Vandals and Attila the Hun, then, a quite original backstory then. Impressive writing material.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Lorric on October 13, 2015, 10:53:16 am
Totally not anything to do with the Vandals and Attila the Hun, then, a quite original backstory then. Impressive writing material.
That's what I thought as soon as the horde thing came up. But hey, it does make it better than the alternative, which would mean we've gone from kill-wrath to petty crime. :p Which would just reinforce the weakness image.

As for the story, it is possible to write a predictable and unoriginal story and still do it well, but I'm certainly not impressed so far.

Though with me, gameplay will be the real determining factor. I won't care if the story sucks if the gameplay is great.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on October 13, 2015, 11:06:02 am
Just on names, I think it would have been so much better if they'd just called them the vandals and said that was the codename for them because we've got no idea what they actually call themselves (or we can't pronounce it).  Would also show a bit of self-awareness.  But no, they've just got a name that coincidentally sounds insanely close to Vandal, and they fill the same role.

SC tries so hard to be the fall of the Roman Empire in space, but it manages to do absolutely nothing interesting with that.  It doesn't look at how the Roman Empire was a colossal supernation that, by the time it died, had culturally assimilated everyone around it (which eventually spread to all of Europe) and destroyed nearly everyone who resisted that assimilation (as in Sassanid Persia and eventually the Muslims were the only ones it didn't).  It doesn't look at how the Empire wasn't destroyed from outside.  Oh no, it copy-pastes the most basic explanation: the Empire was destroyed by barbarians. 

There's absolutely nothing interesting about the setting.  What interesting things exist were taken from other, far better science-fiction.  It's like Star Citizen's setting was built by using TVTropes as assembly instructions.  It's one of the most derivative settings I've ever seen.

No part of Star Citizen is original.  Everything they've done or want to do has been done before.  They don't want to do something that hasn't been done before, they want to do as many things that have been done before as possible.  Putting it all together in one game hasn't been done, but it probably won't be successfully done by SC either.

Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 13, 2015, 11:21:05 am
Yep, it's the word "Vandalism" taken seriously as a legitimate source of historical meaning and reinserted as main canon lore of your "best game evah". I mean, there's so much richness you could distill and get out from this period in time, and instead you do this. I do understand why: it's simple, it's basic. It's "James Cameron" level of hitting you in the head with basic **** so you never confuse yourself. It's like when George Lucas names his villains as "General Grievous". The point is to use these references as basic starting points that you catch on very quickly and without further investigation, so you can focus on the core story, the core characters, etc.

It's very effective, I guess, it's just incredibly boring and stale.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Lorric on October 13, 2015, 12:11:02 pm
That woman calls them "duul". That by itself would be a pretty good name if you ask me. The Duul.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on October 13, 2015, 12:21:56 pm
The dull?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 13, 2015, 12:41:36 pm
No Spoon, read it as "the dole".
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: headdie on October 13, 2015, 12:44:48 pm
No Spoon, read it as "the dole".

Certainly where the project members are heading by the sounds of it
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: -Joshua- on October 13, 2015, 12:50:49 pm
Just on names, I think it would have been so much better if they'd just called them the vandals and said that was the codename for them because we've got no idea what they actually call themselves (or we can't pronounce it).  Would also show a bit of self-awareness.  But no, they've just got a name that coincidentally sounds insanely close to Vandal, and they fill the same role.

SC tries so hard to be the fall of the Roman Empire in space, but it manages to do absolutely nothing interesting with that.  It doesn't look at how the Roman Empire was a colossal supernation that, by the time it died, had culturally assimilated everyone around it (which eventually spread to all of Europe) and destroyed nearly everyone who resisted that assimilation (as in Sassanid Persia and eventually the Muslims were the only ones it didn't).  It doesn't look at how the Empire wasn't destroyed from outside.  Oh no, it copy-pastes the most basic explanation: the Empire was destroyed by barbarians.

One of the most interesting things I found (Yeah Total War: Atilla!) was that the barbarians that caused the WRE the most grief were all tribes who had previously worked for the romans (due to fear of the huns) and were subsequently screwed over by the same romans. Geert Wilders (the brandname right wing nut here in the netherlands) often draws comparisons to the mass migrations when talking about the dangers of letting in refugees, whilst completely ignoring that the only reason Alaric (Visigoth king) sacked Rome was because the Romans refused to pay him for services rendered. The visigoths where not an example of foreign invaders, but rather an example of why you should never mess with worker's unions.

Off course, for people that do not know history a lot (I didn't!) these sorta things could be a plot twist, in which case the Vanduul name (who invaded rome to liberate people held hostage there) can be massive foreshadowing instead (Which, obviously, you won't show in trailers because spoilers!).

But I have only been watching this from the sidelines so I'll withhold judgement.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 13, 2015, 01:36:25 pm
Oh I'm betting it's a plot twist, ala FreeSpace 1, and that's why I referenced Atilla in the first place. The doles were just the mcguffin you see, the real danger is mister Atilla down there (cue "we're totally ****ed" soundtrack here). Wasn't there a much nastier race out there in Star Citizen? Like the enemies of one of your allies or some such, who are just like the Vasudan-like species there?

Curiously IIRC they are referred to as "nomadic species", or "hordes" or some such. I mean, as I said, this is totally original and amazing.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: -Joshua- on October 13, 2015, 01:54:32 pm
It should be worth noting that the Huns were a known quantity for the Romans before the Vandals and Goths attacked them - They were even allied with the Romans at one point in history. The huns themselves also only attacked the Eastern Roman empire, whilst the Western Roman Empire was the empire that actually crumbled at the hands of it's own ineffeciency and the desperation of the people they screwed over.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 13, 2015, 01:56:11 pm
You're just overthinking this now with your "historical accuracies" and some such come on :D
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: -Joshua- on October 13, 2015, 01:59:09 pm
You're just overthinking this now with your "historical accuracies" and some such come on :D

Historical accuracy is never a bad thing :D
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: AtomicClucker on October 13, 2015, 02:00:05 pm
Eh, the "Rome was destroyed by Barbarians" schtick is stale.

Rome never fell, rather its own conquests created the seeds of downfall in the West and rebuilt in the East. By the time the Western provinces ceased to be under direct Roman rule, the organs of "Rome" had migrated to Constantinople while Europe was still essentially Roman in culture and thought, but ruled by Romanized barbarians whom aspired to Roman conventions. Funny, eh?

Chris Roberts needs to get his head out of Gibbons ass.

Not really impressed by the Squadron 42 shtick. Getting 90s cgi vibes from the mocap. Fidelity sucketh mucheth. Here's my problem with fidelity in Star Citizen, it's a terrible reason for feature creep. Screw fidelity.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Mikes on October 13, 2015, 02:49:05 pm
Totally not anything to do with the Vandals and Attila the Hun, then, a quite original backstory then. Impressive writing material.

Yeah Sci Fi games are like that sometimes ... like that other game where some unknown aliens tried to wipe out humanity and humanity of course had to defend itself /yawn ... didn't we hear that story a hundred times?

What was it called again? Freespace 2? ;-) Writing and execution of course never matter in how good a storyline is either, no, not at all ... if you can sum it up in one or two sentences that remind you of something else it must surely suck, right? ;-)

Heh... who knows, maybe you're spot on and it will suck.... but right now, frankly, it just appears that you are jumping to conclusions all to readily. /shrugs
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Turambar on October 13, 2015, 04:04:18 pm
Homeworld 2 totally jumped the shark with those "Vaygr" space barbarians, led by Ma(Genghis)kaan attacking the Hiigaran Empire
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 13, 2015, 04:16:44 pm
Are you actually defending  homeworld 2's storyline?

While I do understand that execution trumps many complaints one might have, the signals aren't good. FS 2 had a huge (yuuge) amount of real world references but they were all mixed up and coherent only to tell a very original story (I've written a wall of text on this). In this case, we seem to have a single analogy that informs the entire plotline almost down to time spans, ideologies and tone. It's all about this one big thing.

Now that might all be just a clever setup and there's actually an intelligent twist along the way. IDK we'll see.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Turambar on October 13, 2015, 05:00:03 pm
Where are you getting your info on SC's storyline anyway? 

Are you extrapolating all this from like 2 facts and aliens called "vanduul" or has there been a lot of story stuff put out?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 13, 2015, 05:44:31 pm
There's a whole wiki on this stuff.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on October 13, 2015, 05:44:57 pm
There's been a decent bit, I think, and all of it's been exactly to the template of Decline and Fall of the Terran Empire.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Hades on October 13, 2015, 10:02:18 pm
You seem to be very ignorant on Star Citizen as a whole, Turambar.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on October 14, 2015, 01:58:13 am
There's a whole wiki on this stuff.

Which does not include the story, only the basic setting. Because the story is still unknown. It is too early to judge.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on October 14, 2015, 06:01:56 am
The setting is what we're talking about.  And no, it's not too early to judge it.  They've released enough fiction for us to get a very good impression.

As for SQ42's story, well, there was that interview CR did where he summarized the story and it was basically the Wing Commander movie, but we don't know if he was serious or not.  Looking at how thoroughly uninspired and derivative the whole game is, it wouldn't surprise me if he was.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Lorric on October 14, 2015, 12:49:53 pm
Squadron 42. Why did it have to be 42? Why couldn't it have been Squadron 40?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnTHypbLlkE#t=1m06s

I'd be saying that all the time if I was playing. You can be as derivative as you like with that, Roberts! Get Brian Blessed in to voice whoever leads the squadron so he can say that line again! :lol:

He's 79, still has that booming voice and intends to climb Mount Everest when he's 80.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 14, 2015, 12:50:38 pm
Well, the quality of story I think depends more on its execution than its premise. And while I think it's too early to judge any story before it's actually released, one shouldn't be surprised if people want to speculate, especially in the absence of anything more entertaining.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: karajorma on October 15, 2015, 06:49:10 am
I don't think you can judge the story before the game comes out. But if the people are right about their speculations, then the story is pretty ****. You shouldn't be able to guess the entire storyline of a game before it comes out!
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 15, 2015, 08:50:43 am
Except if you really think the writers of this **** are as terrible as some of us think they are. Hell, even with good writers, one can make good educated guesses. I nailed most of Mass Effect 3's storyline beforehand.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Mikes on October 15, 2015, 11:13:57 am
Except if you really think the writers of this **** are as terrible as some of us think they are. Hell, even with good writers, one can make good educated guesses. I nailed most of Mass Effect 3's storyline beforehand.

Ack! You knew about the star child and didn't warn us!?!?!?! wahh :P (lol)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 15, 2015, 11:56:50 am
No, that was the hilarious part. What I had speculated was that ME3 would be about Shepard trying to rally the other species to fight the reapers AND to find this deus ex machine BIG GUN that would kill the Reapers. The trickier conclusion I reached was that the tension would be created by a race, a competition between Shepard and TIM (who would be using horrible methods) to get this weapon to kill the Reapers. That is basically correct, except the details.

And then, I hilariously shut down a commenter (http://forum.bioware.com/topic/233890-tim-is-the-real-human-army-fighting-the-reapers/page-3#entry6641295) that proposed that actually TIM was going to try to CONTROL the reapers using indoctrination with this comment of mine:

Quote
Turning BAD ASS ctuhluh like creatures into puppets seem like a BAD idea story wise.

Just sayin...

So my mistake was to assume Bioware's minimal writing competency :D.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Turambar on October 15, 2015, 04:28:32 pm
I was disappointed as soon as the story became about getting a giant ancient reaper killing weapon to kill the reapers.

but 95% of the game was still totally ****in awesome.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Dragon on October 15, 2015, 05:00:10 pm
A story doesn't necessarily have to be new in order to be enjoyable. Actually, it is entirely dependent on how it is pulled off. Sure, originality helps, but we still enjoy age-old storylines when they are told well. On the flipside, it's very possible to have a good, original idea, then screw it up so badly it loses all appeal. Originality itself is not all-important, though it's hard for a clone to be better than the original (though, amazingly enough, it has happened). The Wing Commander movie wasn't actually all that bad, it's the special effects that were terrible.

That said, Star Citizen might very well become too much of a throwback. Roberts seems to either want to create a great, revolutionary "new big thing", or go back to his "glory days". A game that is essentially WC+Freelancer+Starlancer all mashed together in a great 90s throwback with better graphics would probably be fun, but not exactly a classic. Nostalgia will attract some players, but SC needs to go beyond that if it really wants to succeed.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on October 15, 2015, 07:56:53 pm
What made Wing Commander remarkable is that it was among the first games to handle storytelling in a modern manner.  Once that sort of thing became standard, new Chris Roberts titles became rather mediocre.  Just look at WC Prophecy and Starlancer.  The typical Chris Roberts story isn't good enough anymore.  It stopped being good enough in the second half of the 1990s.  No, a story doesn't need to be new to be enjoyable.  But it does need to do something different to set itself apart from what came before.  Good writing is necessary whether your story is old or new (whatever those are supposed to mean).  And good writing is something past CR games never had.  The WC movie didn't either.

It remains to be seen if SC will follow this trend, but judging by how insanely generic Bishop's speech was, and how derivative the setting itself is, I'm not hopeful.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Sushi on October 15, 2015, 08:11:01 pm
To paraphrase Stephen Colbert (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqgvll8W7Jk):

Generic enough to not confuse anyone, but also generic enough that everyone will love it.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Mikes on October 16, 2015, 06:23:36 am
What made Wing Commander remarkable is that it was among the first games to handle storytelling in a modern manner.  Once that sort of thing became standard, new Chris Roberts titles became rather mediocre.  Just look at WC Prophecy and Starlancer.  The typical Chris Roberts story isn't good enough anymore.  It stopped being good enough in the second half of the 1990s.  No, a story doesn't need to be new to be enjoyable.  But it does need to do something different to set itself apart from what came before.  Good writing is necessary whether your story is old or new (whatever those are supposed to mean).  And good writing is something past CR games never had.  The WC movie didn't either.

It remains to be seen if SC will follow this trend, but judging by how insanely generic Bishop's speech was, and how derivative the setting itself is, I'm not hopeful.

No mention of Wing Commander 4? Why not? Was that one too good? ;-) And Prophecy is more of an example why you shouldn t let EA handle franchises than anything else. lol.


Also not sure whether you can judge a man solely on the work he did 15-20 years ago ...  in the meantime he did other things like direct "Lord of War" and a couple of other movies as well.

I'll settle on what I said above... "We'll see when we're gonna see" ... but in my humble opinion anyone who pretends to "know", at this stage, is just blowing smoke. /shrugs
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: The E on October 16, 2015, 06:36:49 am
Also not sure whether you can judge a man solely on the work he did 15-20 years ago ...  in the meantime he did other things like direct "Lord of War" and other movies as well.


Point of Order: Christ Roberts didn't direct or write Lord of War. Both of those duties were handled by Andrew Niccol (who also wrote and directed Gattaca and wrote The Truman Show), aka someone who actually knew what he was doing.
He did however produce the film.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on October 16, 2015, 08:16:33 am
What made Wing Commander remarkable is that it was among the first games to handle storytelling in a modern manner.  Once that sort of thing became standard, new Chris Roberts titles became rather mediocre.  Just look at WC Prophecy and Starlancer.  The typical Chris Roberts story isn't good enough anymore.  It stopped being good enough in the second half of the 1990s.  No, a story doesn't need to be new to be enjoyable.  But it does need to do something different to set itself apart from what came before.  Good writing is necessary whether your story is old or new (whatever those are supposed to mean).  And good writing is something past CR games never had.  The WC movie didn't either.

It remains to be seen if SC will follow this trend, but judging by how insanely generic Bishop's speech was, and how derivative the setting itself is, I'm not hopeful.

No mention of Wing Commander 4? Why not? Was that one too good? ;-) And Prophecy is more of an example why you shouldn t let EA handle franchises than anything else. lol.


Also not sure whether you can judge a man solely on the work he did 15-20 years ago ...  in the meantime he did other things like direct "Lord of War" and a couple of other movies as well.

I'll settle on what I said above... "We'll see when we're gonna see" ... but in my humble opinion anyone who pretends to "know", at this stage, is just blowing smoke. /shrugs
Well, given that his entire crowdfunding campaign was completely based on work he did 15-20 years ago (since he's done nothing decent since), I think he wants to be judged based on that.  I'm obliging him.

I don't think WC4 was anything special, but then again, I don't think WC5 was much worse.  It was more of the same.  What made it different is that it abandoned some of the characters (like not making Blair the player character), and, I think, showed just how mediocre the series was if you weren't a fan of the characters.  Its story and the way it was told was no worse and no better.

Basically, more of the same, but with less fan appeal.  Starlancer was in the exact same boat.

And no one here is pretending to know anything for certain.  But you need to get it into your head that it's perfectly sensible to make predictions based on what we've seen from CR before and what CIG have presented of this game and its setting thus far.  Maybe those predictions will turn out wrong, but expecting more of the same is a far safer prediction than expecting CR to make something genuinely interesting.  The former is supported by his past work and what's been shown of the game.  The latter is supported by wishful thinking.

The "it'll be mediocre" and "it'll be awesome" positions are not supported by the same amount of evidence.  They are not equally likely.  Saying "we'll see when we're gonna see" is all well and good, but it adds absolutely nothing to the discussion.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Mikes on October 16, 2015, 09:42:30 am
Well, given that his entire crowdfunding campaign was completely based on work he did 15-20 years ago (since he's done nothing decent since), I think he wants to be judged based on that.  I'm obliging him.

I don't think WC4 was anything special, but then again, I don't think WC5 was much worse.  It was more of the same.  What made it different is that it abandoned some of the characters (like not making Blair the player character), and, I think, showed just how mediocre the series was if you weren't a fan of the characters.  Its story and the way it was told was no worse and no better.

Basically, more of the same, but with less fan appeal.  Starlancer was in the exact same boat.


Errrrrr.... Wing Commander 5 / Starlancer, "not much worse" than Wing Commander 4? Sheez ... have we been playing the same games? I'd say they were both rather abysmal in comparison to WC4. Especially WC5.

And yes ... he wants a spiritual successor to Wing Commander or a "modern space sim" ...  but you can't tell me that 15 years of life and experience in the movie industry mean nothing if it comes to executing stories and thus making possibly a "better" game than 15 years ago? Well, you are free to believe what you want, naturally. I'll keep my mh ... let's call it "nonpessimism" or "guarded optimism" or whatever. I just wanna see how it DOES turn out. ;-)

The "it'll be mediocre" and "it'll be awesome" positions are not supported by the same amount of evidence.  They are not equally likely.  Saying "we'll see when we're gonna see" is all well and good, but it adds absolutely nothing to the discussion.

Frankly, the issue I took with the discussion was that it was pretty much just a load of strong opinion based on guesswork and preconceptions and little else. I don't see any "hard evidence" swinging either way. Guess what "counts" as "evidence" is rather subjective in this case as well. /shrugs.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on October 16, 2015, 09:50:33 am
I mean, Chris only directed one film and it was a schlocky flop. The rest of his film career was spent producing, which is a management position. And his career ground to a halt when Kevin Costner sued the **** out of him over a failed project, so he wasn't exactly a success in that regard either.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on October 16, 2015, 10:01:47 am
And no one here is pretending to know anything for certain.  But you need to get it into your head that it's perfectly sensible to make predictions based on what we've seen from CR before and what CIG have presented of this game and its setting thus far.  Maybe those predictions will turn out wrong, but expecting more of the same is a far safer prediction than expecting CR to make something genuinely interesting.  The former is supported by his past work and what's been shown of the game.  The latter is supported by wishful thinking.

The "it'll be mediocre" and "it'll be awesome" positions are not supported by the same amount of evidence.  They are not equally likely.  Saying "we'll see when we're gonna see" is all well and good, but it adds absolutely nothing to the discussion.
Just because you are of the opinion that the wing commander series was nothing but medicore drab doesn't make it a fact. I'd just like to point out that you have done nothing but present your opinions as factual fact. It bugs me a little as makes you appear incredibly antagonistic in this whole thread.
I mean, I know you have a history of doing this. And we have butted heads before because of this. But man, chill out a bit. You are almost making me feel bad about agreeing on your star citizen related points because of how savage you're being.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Lorric on October 16, 2015, 10:26:03 am
And no one here is pretending to know anything for certain.  But you need to get it into your head that it's perfectly sensible to make predictions based on what we've seen from CR before and what CIG have presented of this game and its setting thus far.  Maybe those predictions will turn out wrong, but expecting more of the same is a far safer prediction than expecting CR to make something genuinely interesting.  The former is supported by his past work and what's been shown of the game.  The latter is supported by wishful thinking.

The "it'll be mediocre" and "it'll be awesome" positions are not supported by the same amount of evidence.  They are not equally likely.  Saying "we'll see when we're gonna see" is all well and good, but it adds absolutely nothing to the discussion.
Just because you are of the opinion that the wing commander series was nothing but medicore drab doesn't make it a fact. I'd just like to point out that you have done nothing but present your opinions as factual fact. It bugs me a little as makes you appear incredibly antagonistic in this whole thread.
I mean, I know you have a history of doing this. And we have butted heads before because of this. But man, chill out a bit. You are almost making me feel bad about agreeing on your star citizen related points because of how savage you're being.
I feel exactly the same way as you. While I do agree with what you said about Aesaar completely, it's the behaviour of the whole clique rather than just Aesaar singly that makes me feel that way (almost feel bad). Like I've wanted to talk about this stuff lately, but end up feeling kinda sorta like I'm part of the elitist dogpile even though I'm not and I just want to have a friendly talk.

I'd be surprised if us saying this made any difference though. This post is more in a you won't know unless you try vein and for the benefit of the people in the thread that I've been talking to in order to outline my own position in this thread so there's no confusion. So they know I'm not looking down on them or anything.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on October 16, 2015, 09:22:28 pm
Just because you are of the opinion that the wing commander series was nothing but medicore drab doesn't make it a fact. I'd just like to point out that you have done nothing but present your opinions as factual fact. It bugs me a little as makes you appear incredibly antagonistic in this whole thread.
I mean, I know you have a history of doing this. And we have butted heads before because of this. But man, chill out a bit. You are almost making me feel bad about agreeing on your star citizen related points because of how savage you're being.
Everything I write is my opinion.  Some of it is also fact, but I think those bits are fairly obvious.  I'm not about to preface every paragraph I write with 'in my opinion'.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 17, 2015, 01:18:07 am
What do people credit Chris Roberts for exactly that gives him such credentials on Star Citizen?

Wing Commander I was done by Roberts
Wing Commander II was done by another guy
Wing Commander III was developed, engine wise, by another guy
A game like Wing Commander Privateer was developed by Erin Roberts not Chris.

I've always understood III and Privateer to be the most well-received games.

IV I understood to ride the coat-tails of III and with V, those coat tails were getting worn a bit thin.

If you look at the guy's wiki page it says:
Wing Commander was published later in 1990 and was highly acclaimed. Wing Commander (and the franchise it spawned) soon became Origin's most successful product. Roberts wasn't as heavily involved in the sequel Wing Commander II, which he only produced. He instead concentrated on Strike Commander. First shown to the public at Summer CES 1991, the project suffered from numerous delays and was not released until 1993. He returned to Wing Commander soon after, devising the original concept for the spin-off Wing Commander: Privateer (which his brother, Erin Roberts, produced) and being more deeply involved in Wing Commander III and Wing Commander IV. For these sequels, Roberts directed the live-action cinematic scenes.

Games are always a collaborative process and for someone who seems to jump in and out of the development pipeline it's not really clear to me why so much credit would be attributed to him.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: X3N0-Life-Form on October 17, 2015, 02:51:59 am
I'm not about to preface every paragraph I write with 'in my opinion'.
Funny, that's usually how I do things and it in my experience, it works wonders while only taking me a few extra seconds to write.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on October 17, 2015, 06:58:53 am
A game like Wing Commander Privateer was developed by Erin Roberts not Chris.

I've always understood III and Privateer to be the most well-received games.

Privateer was produced by Erin Roberts. Erin is also head of global production of Star Citizen, and his studio, Foundry 42, is deeply involved in all aspects of SC development. I just hope that he can keep this project on track..
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on October 17, 2015, 08:14:56 am
I'm not about to preface every paragraph I write with 'in my opinion'.
Funny, that's usually how I do things and it in my experience, it works wonders while only taking me a few extra seconds to write.
Good for you.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on October 17, 2015, 09:38:49 am
meanwhile, fps module still looks like utter **** (and, uh, is mostly being shown off from third person, which is p. suspicious)

Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on October 17, 2015, 10:50:50 am
That looks so jerky, jittery, terrible and unfun. How long ago was this suppose to come out again?
It's clear they are being incredibly hampered by all the 'first person animation must match third person animations' nonsense. How can you **** up a FPS in an engine that is literally made for FPS games?

Also I can't get over the fact that its supposedly taking place like XXXXX years in the future and they are using iron sights and basically the same kind of guns you could find today. Even the latest call of duty has higher technology going on than this.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on October 17, 2015, 10:53:38 am
If you look closely there's only about half a second of footage of first-person shooting in the entire video, and it looks like total ****.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: FrikgFeek on October 17, 2015, 11:48:11 am
 I don't have a problem with kinetic weapons but you'd think with all the super advanced technology they'd move away from ~600-1000 RPM guns with 30 round capacity.
And why are they reloading them manually? Surely with all the space tech they have they could have a much faster auto-reload system. It just looks like they nicked the FPS mechanics from some random shovelware released in 2009.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: X3N0-Life-Form on October 17, 2015, 12:29:10 pm
I'm not about to preface every paragraph I write with 'in my opinion'.
Funny, that's usually how I do things and it in my experience, it works wonders while only taking me a few extra seconds to write.
Good for you.
Thank you.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on October 17, 2015, 12:29:57 pm
That's what's so ****ing crazy about it, it's not lazy shovelware: they spent years and a ridiculous amount of development resources independently redeveloping a lazy shovelware FPS.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Lorric on October 17, 2015, 01:11:05 pm
Also I can't get over the fact that its supposedly taking place like XXXXX years in the future and they are using iron sights and basically the same kind of guns you could find today. Even the latest call of duty has higher technology going on than this.
I looked at the Star Citizen timeline. The game is set in 2945. That's nearly a thousand years. However, there could be an explanation for it. Maybe the advanced weapons exist, but it's all around more cost effective to equip personnel with these kinds of weapons. Or maybe since we're fighting in space, more powerful weapons would be dangerous if they holed whatever they were fighting on.

And also it's still a game where you need the game to be fun. Weapon technology nowadays is already ****ing scary. Firing off missiles from thousands of miles away to hit targets with near pinpoint accuracy. That kind of thing would be no fun in a game, and is why we have fighters dogfighting with each other.

But there is certainly room inbetween all that for fancy futuristic weapons. I'm thinking about Perfect Dark and the Timesplitters series which featured some very cool futuristic weapons and secondary functions to go with them and they were still fun to use. It's a missed opportunity to create some unique and eye catching weaponry. You could hand out personal shields to everyone as well and then you could have some truly ridiculous weaponry firing ridiculous amounts of bullets with the personal shields soaking up tons of damage, and if they wanted to stick with the realism thing, as soon as the shield goes down one shot can deliver the final blow. So players could tank damage from ridiculous kinetic weapons, energy weapons, weapons firing thick beams of energy, explosive ammunition, so you could tank shots from rocket launchers and the like to a limited extent, anything you can think of. Though this might be limited by what I said about holing whatever you're fighting on, there's still plenty of room between to work with. And you can bet weapons makers in the future would want to make weapons suitable for combat in space to maximise effectiveness against personnel and minimise damage to the ship.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on October 17, 2015, 01:12:10 pm
The game is set in 2945.

they couldn't even pick the ****ing year without cribbing from something else
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Lorric on October 17, 2015, 01:19:27 pm
Well technically they didn't do that. The date isn't fixed. It's moving with the current date and started out as 2942 in 2012.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on October 17, 2015, 01:20:33 pm
aye but lorric, riddle me this: what was going on exactly 1000 years before both 2942 and 2945
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Lorric on October 17, 2015, 01:24:31 pm
WW2. It's not going to be a WW2 story though is it? We think they're taking from the Vandals and Rome instead. I'm guessing they just wanted to start with the 42 there. It won't be 42-45 by the time it releases, if it does.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: FrikgFeek on October 17, 2015, 03:19:16 pm
There's still no reason for the guns to look so... 1970. And if extremely strong weapons would ruin the fun then just handwave in really strong armor. Make the weapons feel futuristic and exciting. Just add some holographics, high constrast Tron lines, and make players implode when they die or something. You're not even touching game balance yet you're still making it feel more futuristic and exciting.
Or just make it seem like you're firing a lot more bullets than you actually are. Tweak the effects and the HUD while still only tracking 10-20 bullets per second to minimise CPU load. A lot of current games already do this kind of stuff with super high RPM miniguns.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on October 17, 2015, 03:48:45 pm
Or just make it seem like you're firing a lot more bullets than you actually are. Tweak the effects and the HUD while still only tracking 10-20 bullets per second to minimise CPU load. A lot of current games already do this kind of stuff with super high RPM miniguns.
This would go against CR obsession with simulating everything.  They even have headbobbing because they can't bear the idea of the player viewpoint being a few centimeters away from the character model's eyes for a split second during the walk/run animations.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on October 17, 2015, 04:14:01 pm
Dont know what you expected, there were bound to be kinetic weapons that resemble todays weapons in the game, they wont wow the player but they wont weird them out either. But I am sure there will be more exotic guns, too. Microwave cannon was mentioned.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on October 17, 2015, 04:36:46 pm
santaball and a zero-g arena were also mentioned, like the microwave cannon they haven't been mentioned again
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Hades on October 17, 2015, 05:08:52 pm
(http://i.ytimg.com/vi/3uUE4qNebNU/maxresdefault.jpg)

welcome to the ****ING future
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Axem on October 17, 2015, 05:27:35 pm
I would just like to state my complete ire for a 1990s/early 2000s style 7 segment LCD display you'd find on a cheap calculator on this year 2900 gun.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: headdie on October 17, 2015, 05:31:59 pm
its an even shorter barrel G-36C
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Hades on October 17, 2015, 09:09:22 pm
it looks like a G36 put through the Warhammer 40K universe without the justification for the cartoony proportions.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: z64555 on October 17, 2015, 11:35:24 pm
What's with the inconsistent weaver rails, tho? Otherwise looks good.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: headdie on October 18, 2015, 02:09:29 am
What's with the inconsistent weaver rails, tho? Otherwise looks good.

Looks like they modeled the full sized carry handle and then scaled the last span by about half to fit before texturing
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Lorric on October 19, 2015, 11:03:04 am
Headbob doesn't bother me one iota. It surprises me that it would bother anyone but there you go. If anything I prefer it, it feels much more natural than being like you're some on rails robot, but I care little when you really get down to it.

But it's funny what you think about sometimes. I was sat in the bus station earlier today, and this pigeon had got in and I was watching it wandering around. And I ended up thinking about this thread and imagining what it would be like with pigeon headbob in this game. :lol:
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on October 19, 2015, 11:32:27 am
Headbob is ****ing awful, its in the same realm as awful as small fov and it literally makes me sick. I couldn't play half life 2 for more than 2 hours without feeling nausea because of its default ****ty 75 degree fov and headbobbing.
It doesn't add immersion nor does it feel 'natural'.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 19, 2015, 11:39:38 am
Gasp. How dare ye. Your heresy will be shown to the Emperator's committee and you'll be shown the true color of our imperial speech code justice. May the prison designers have mercy on you and finish its design before you're too old to leave.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on October 19, 2015, 11:39:52 am
I can filter out headbob pretty well but I'm not a ****head so I don't tell people who get sick from it that that's their problem.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: karajorma on October 19, 2015, 11:44:42 am
But it's funny what you think about sometimes. I was sat in the bus station earlier today, and this pigeon had got in and I was watching it wandering around. And I ended up thinking about this thread and imagining what it would be like with pigeon headbob in this game. :lol:

Ummmmmm. Hate to break this to you, but one of the main theories about why they do that is so as to stabilise their vision. i.e to avoid headbob. :p

Birds in general have some quite amazing steadying properties. One of the cheapest ways to get a steadycam is to simply mount a small camera on the head of a chicken and give it something fascinating to look at. Seriously (http://gizmodo.com/tag/chicken-steadicam). :p
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Lorric on October 19, 2015, 12:27:02 pm
@ Karajorma

Very interesting. Thanks. :)

Headbob is ****ing awful, its in the same realm as awful as small fov and it literally makes me sick. I couldn't play half life 2 for more than 2 hours without feeling nausea because of its default ****ty 75 degree fov and headbobbing.
It doesn't add immersion nor does it feel 'natural'.
I didn't know it could have this effect. And you can play other games which would be more jerky no problem?

This actually makes me think back to a few months ago, I ran into I believe the first game which made me feel sick, Beat Hazard. Also brought on headache iirc. I loved the game, but I'm not able to play it because of all the screen shaking. 5mins on that is enough for the effect to kick in. I tried to tough it out and played the game for several hours but I couldn't get used to it and had to stop and felt wretched for hours after stopping play. I tried a few more times in short bursts hoping it would get easier and I could eventually adapt and break myself in, but it never got any easier. I really wish it was possible to turn off the screen shaking in that game. :sigh:

I don't understand why headbob would have this effect when there are games with so much more jerkiness to them, but if it bothers people like this, then okay, I suppose it's a bad design decision. I don't know if it works the other way on some people who might be really bothered because there isn't headbob, but unless that's the case then you're just leaving money on the table from people who might like your game but physically can't play it. If you really wanted it in your game, maybe there could be a setting to switch it on or off in the options.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on October 19, 2015, 12:58:34 pm
Gasp. How dare ye. Your heresy will be shown to the Emperator's committee and you'll be shown the true color of our imperial speech code justice. May the prison designers have mercy on you and finish its design before you're too old to leave.
Ack, please no. Mercy!

I can filter out headbob pretty well but I'm not a ****head so I don't tell people who get sick from it that that's their problem.
Good man.

I didn't know it could have this effect. And you can play other games which would be more jerky no problem?
I can play unreal tournament for hours on end without any issues. It's mostly a FoV issue, but headbobbing amplifies it.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 19, 2015, 01:04:51 pm
Gasp. How dare ye. Your heresy will be shown to the Emperator's committee and you'll be shown the true color of our imperial speech code justice. May the prison designers have mercy on you and finish its design before you're too old to leave.
Ack, please no. Mercy!

And here's the kicker: You'll have to flee the prison with your headbob enabled.

MuhuhahhahahAHAHAH
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on October 19, 2015, 01:56:59 pm
You fiend.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 19, 2015, 07:44:16 pm
Wow nice gun, looks straight out of COD.  Are they using a free unity asset for testing purposes?
Even this gun set 200 years in the future from a 20-year old movie looks more futuristic:

(http://media.bestofmicro.com/aliens-m-41a-pulse-rifle,M-P-271681-13.jpg)

Is the game going to simulate ricochets? I wonder how fun it will be to fire a ton of bullets into a metal hallway or off a bulkhead? Will you get decompression?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Sushi on October 21, 2015, 11:27:14 am
I found this to be a pretty good read:

http://massivelyop.com/2015/10/21/ascents-lead-dev-offers-insight-on-the-star-citizen-controversy/
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 21, 2015, 11:57:56 am
If the bullets don't ricochet, my immersion is irredeemedly destroyed. And they better ricochet differently according to materials. OR ELSE.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: -Joshua- on October 21, 2015, 12:27:40 pm
But it's funny what you think about sometimes. I was sat in the bus station earlier today, and this pigeon had got in and I was watching it wandering around. And I ended up thinking about this thread and imagining what it would be like with pigeon headbob in this game. :lol:

Ummmmmm. Hate to break this to you, but one of the main theories about why they do that is so as to stabilise their vision. i.e to avoid headbob. :p

Birds in general have some quite amazing steadying properties. One of the cheapest ways to get a steadycam is to simply mount a small camera on the head of a chicken and give it something fascinating to look at. Seriously (http://gizmodo.com/tag/chicken-steadicam). :p

Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on October 21, 2015, 01:12:28 pm
I found this to be a pretty good read:

http://massivelyop.com/2015/10/21/ascents-lead-dev-offers-insight-on-the-star-citizen-controversy/


James Hicks is uninformed about SC rendering tech, so take the first part of this blog with a huge grain of salt. Star Citizen is using reversed 32-bit floating point depth buffer, devs have confirmed that already. This allows them to render objects at any range correctly, from centimeters to millions of kilometers, and it does not need any complex camera trickery to do it. More info about reversed depth buffer here:

http://outerra.blogspot.sk/2012/11/maximizing-depth-buffer-range-and.html

Quote
You need to be painting a 32bit picture for the GPU, a snapshot based on the larger 64bit picture your game engine has… every frame. If this sounds complex, that’s because it is.

It really is not, it is a simple and elegant solution. What may take long is converting an entire Cryengine to use this system, but not because of any inherent complexity of "camera-relative" rendering, but because it is just a very long task to convert such a huge codebase to use doubles for all positional calculations (which are everywhere in 3d engines) and camera relative positions for the renderer.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on October 21, 2015, 05:39:11 pm
But it's funny what you think about sometimes. I was sat in the bus station earlier today, and this pigeon had got in and I was watching it wandering around. And I ended up thinking about this thread and imagining what it would be like with pigeon headbob in this game. :lol:

Ummmmmm. Hate to break this to you, but one of the main theories about why they do that is so as to stabilise their vision. i.e to avoid headbob. :p

Birds in general have some quite amazing steadying properties. One of the cheapest ways to get a steadycam is to simply mount a small camera on the head of a chicken and give it something fascinating to look at. Seriously (http://gizmodo.com/tag/chicken-steadicam). :p

Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: NGTM-1R on October 26, 2015, 01:16:01 am
Wow nice gun, looks straight out of COD.

The ergonomics and design of firearms are pretty well settled by now, constrained far more by the basic limiting factors of having to be used by human beings than by the underlying technology. Expecting projectile chemical-reaction firearms to look radically different from what you know is more reflective of a problem with you.

So if you want to make criticism, y'know, find stuff that's not horrendously nitpicky and kind of silly. There's a lot of it, as this thread demonstrates.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 26, 2015, 03:37:24 am
Wow nice gun, looks straight out of COD.

The ergonomics and design of firearms are pretty well settled by now, constrained far more by the basic limiting factors of having to be used by human beings than by the underlying technology. Expecting projectile chemical-reaction firearms to look radically different from what you know is more reflective of a problem with you.

So if you want to make criticism, y'know, find stuff that's not horrendously nitpicky and kind of silly. There's a lot of it, as this thread demonstrates.

Feel free to try and peddle whatever **** excuse you have for banal design work but I'm not buying.

If a gun a thousand years in the future doesn't look more futuristic than a P90 PDW there's something wrong.  I see no less than 26 rivets or bolts on that gun.  A Famas has about 5.

It's not about ergonomics its about construction techniques and materials. Why is there a display on the gun? Wouldn't a man in a space suit have a Heads Up Display? Information link from his gun to his suit?  How compact is it? Isn't storage on a spaceship at premium? Wouldn't they make it out of lightweight materials to decrease the fuel required to transport it around? To ease its use in zero G? Is there any kind of recoil compensation? Does it break down/fold up for easy storage? The gun doesn't even have a grip for the off-hand.

Use your brain a little. If you were trying to imagine a gun a thousands years in the future is that the best you could imagine?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on October 26, 2015, 05:11:32 am
Feel free to try and peddle whatever **** excuse you have for banal design work but I'm not buying.

If a gun a thousand years in the future doesn't look more futuristic than a P90 PDW there's something wrong.  I see no less than 26 rivets or bolts on that gun.  A Famas has about 5.

It's not about ergonomics its about construction techniques and materials. Why is there a display on the gun? Wouldn't a man in a space suit have a Heads Up Display? Information link from his gun to his suit?  How compact is it? Isn't storage on a spaceship at premium? Wouldn't they make it out of lightweight materials to decrease the fuel required to transport it around? To ease its use in zero G? Is there any kind of recoil compensation? Does it break down/fold up for easy storage? The gun doesn't even have a grip for the off-hand.

Use your brain a little. If you were trying to imagine a gun a thousands years in the future is that the best you could imagine?

You will not have a heads up display available all the time, so display on the gun makes complete sense. If you want to nitpick, then the issue is that it looks like an old LCD alphanumeric type, such technology would probably be long deprecated. We dont know what material is it made of or if it can fold for storage.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: headdie on October 26, 2015, 05:37:33 am
Even in a HUD situation, Having a backup display on the weapon is not a bad idea as they are not mutually exclusive and provides the shooter with a backup of that information in case the HUD display is unusable for some reason. though the fact that the display looks like it came off a cheap 90's calculator doesn't help

My main complaint is that you can clearly see the weapon is a G36 derivative design to the point they botched the utility rail to make if fit the altered barrel length.  even an XM-8 while ergonomically almost identical to the M4 looks very different.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 26, 2015, 12:36:30 pm
Even Airplane designers in 2015 know that having a full display of combat area is an incredible advantage (http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2014/07/magic-helmet-for-f-35-ready-for-delivery/), but somehow designers in 2900 forgot all this and thought that polluting your screen with stupid tablets all over the place reducing your actual combat awareness by 40/60% is the ****.

I couldn't give a rat's ass about stupid led counters in a stupid FPS that nobody will play. But that cockpit. That ****ing cockpit.

I won't shut up about it. Volition did a thousand times better job in 1998 with its cockpit than a multimegamillion company with the craziest shiny graphical engines of 2015.

I just won't shut up abo.... ok I will shut up about it.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 26, 2015, 01:02:49 pm
Feel free to try and peddle whatever **** excuse you have for banal design work but I'm not buying.

If a gun a thousand years in the future doesn't look more futuristic than a P90 PDW there's something wrong.  I see no less than 26 rivets or bolts on that gun.  A Famas has about 5.

It's not about ergonomics its about construction techniques and materials. Why is there a display on the gun? Wouldn't a man in a space suit have a Heads Up Display? Information link from his gun to his suit?  How compact is it? Isn't storage on a spaceship at premium? Wouldn't they make it out of lightweight materials to decrease the fuel required to transport it around? To ease its use in zero G? Is there any kind of recoil compensation? Does it break down/fold up for easy storage? The gun doesn't even have a grip for the off-hand.

Use your brain a little. If you were trying to imagine a gun a thousands years in the future is that the best you could imagine?

You will not have a heads up display available all the time, so display on the gun makes complete sense. If you want to nitpick, then the issue is that it looks like an old LCD alphanumeric type, such technology would probably be long deprecated. We dont know what material is it made of or if it can fold for storage.

I'm not nitpicking I'm expressing an opinion.  The overall look of the gun is simply not futuristic and the LCD display is simply one aspect of the overall failure.


Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on October 26, 2015, 03:05:52 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/xfQ72t9.png)

(http://i.imgur.com/Q8pEre7.png)

Perfectly normal for lead developers to leave in the middle of a project.  Everything is fine.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on October 26, 2015, 03:42:45 pm
Even Airplane designers in 2015 know that having a full display of combat area is an incredible advantage (http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2014/07/magic-helmet-for-f-35-ready-for-delivery/), but somehow designers in 2900 forgot all this and thought that polluting your screen with stupid tablets all over the place reducing your actual combat awareness by 40/60% is the ****.

I couldn't give a rat's ass about stupid led counters in a stupid FPS that nobody will play. But that cockpit. That ****ing cockpit.

I won't shut up about it. Volition did a thousand times better job in 1998 with its cockpit than a multimegamillion company with the craziest shiny graphical engines of 2015.

I just won't shut up abo.... ok I will shut up about it.
I hear ya, this was one of my first complaints when I had my first look at arena commander. The actual action happens at like half of your screen, the rest of this estate is taken up by all sorts of stuff.

I'm personally a big fan of not having a cockpit, like in FS2. But if you absolutely must have a cockpit, have something like in Starlancer http://ibin.co/2KPbMcmcsu8s at most.
You still get the idea of being inside a fighter, it shakes a bit when afterburning and it tilts a bit when turning. While having the vast majority of your screen estate dedicated to seeing what the **** is going on outside the cockpit. Don't dedicate so much time to making **** that obscures your vision in the name of 'immersion' **** damnit ****s.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 26, 2015, 04:42:10 pm
Yeah, that Starlancer example is not that bad. Somehow my mind went absolutely into that Steve Jobs presentation about the iPhone, when he was showing his "competition"...

(http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2007/01/dsc_0172.jpg)

... and was like "Yeah the problem is all this bottom 40 here"


Also, ROFL at that Dan Tracy guy leaving. "No tanks near Bagdad guys...."
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on October 26, 2015, 06:04:07 pm
Also, ROFL at that Dan Tracy guy leaving. "No tanks near Bagdad guys...."

(http://i.imgur.com/WEC6mIQ.jpg)

Spoiler:
I didn't make this.  Found it on SA.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Mongoose on October 26, 2015, 06:33:06 pm
*retroactively hurls rotten fruit at Steve Jobs for encouraging lemmings to utterly forgo tactile feedback*
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on October 26, 2015, 06:40:09 pm
(https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/sheeple.png)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: karajorma on October 26, 2015, 09:22:10 pm
*retroactively hurls rotten fruit at Steve Jobs for encouraging lemmings to utterly forgo tactile feedback

Their choice, I still use a BlackBerry and I'm very happy with it.

When it comes to cockpits, I tend to also prefer not to have them. In Diaspora it is pretty much canon that you can see the ship, but normally I'd prefer to leave the cockpit as an optional extra.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: headdie on October 27, 2015, 03:51:56 am
*retroactively hurls rotten fruit at Steve Jobs for encouraging lemmings to utterly forgo tactile feedback

Their choice, I still use a BlackBerry and I'm very happy with it.

When it comes to cockpits, I tend to also prefer not to have them. In Diaspora it is pretty much canon that you can see the ship, but normally I'd prefer to leave the cockpit as an optional extra.

at the same time you kept the cockpit to a minimum
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: The E on October 27, 2015, 04:30:41 am
Yeah, because the Viper cockpit was patterned after the Show cockpits, which in turn took inspiration from the F-16 and F/A-18, which unlike the fighters in SC, are flown by actual pilots during actual combat.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 27, 2015, 04:58:43 am
I for one am glad that Phantom Hoover is here to teach us all a lesson of humility and a need to tone down condescending righteous criticism.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: headdie on October 27, 2015, 05:19:17 am
I for one am glad that Phantom Hoover is here to teach us all a lesson of humility and a need to tone down condescending righteous criticism.

wow way to make it personal
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Fineus on October 27, 2015, 05:27:17 am
Simmer down please everyone. No need for personal insults and please keep it respectful.

Some folks like the way Star Citizen is shaping up.

Some people have criticisms with it.

Both points of view are OK and can co-exist. If you don't like it, don't buy in to it.

I have bought into it and really hope it's not a huge and elaborate scam that D.Smart claims it to be. I do find it odd that he's going after SC specifically with such gusto - especially after his lacklustre own work - but time will tell what they can do.

In the meantime - as above - please simmer down.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: karajorma on October 27, 2015, 05:29:56 am
Well they did make it personal. And we all know that Derek Smart has a hard enough time when people criticise his games, let alone making it personal. So I'm hardly surprised he's acting like they called him out.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 27, 2015, 06:20:10 am
I for one am glad that Phantom Hoover is here to teach us all a lesson of humility and a need to tone down condescending righteous criticism.

wow way to make it personal

Some dislike "personal", I dislike "handwaved generalizing righteous condescending remarks".
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: headdie on October 27, 2015, 06:38:16 am
Well they did make it personal. And we all know that Derek Smart has a hard enough time when people criticise his games, let alone making it personal. So I'm hardly surprised he's acting like they called him out.
I was referring to Luis Dias
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: -Joshua- on October 27, 2015, 08:03:01 am
I for one am glad that Phantom Hoover is here to teach us all a lesson of humility and a need to tone down condescending righteous criticism.

wow way to make it personal

Some dislike "personal", I dislike "handwaved generalizing righteous condescending remarks".

Then grow a thicker skin! It's not like you never use them.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: karajorma on October 27, 2015, 08:19:35 am
Well they did make it personal. And we all know that Derek Smart has a hard enough time when people criticise his games, let alone making it personal. So I'm hardly surprised he's acting like they called him out.
I was referring to Luis Dias

I know, but I was replying to Fineus' comment about it being strange that Derek has the knives out for SC. I suppose I could have made it clearer it was that part I was replying to.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Fineus on October 27, 2015, 08:29:02 am
Well they did make it personal. And we all know that Derek Smart has a hard enough time when people criticise his games, let alone making it personal. So I'm hardly surprised he's acting like they called him out.

I do see your point... but we (that is the FreeSpace community) of all should know how he can carry on. Remember when he started in on us a few years back? It was ridiculous, petty and seeing his outbursts on Twitter towards SC brings back some major deja vu.

That said, SC *does* have to prove its worth and all they have to do is not deliver in order for Derek to get a big fat 'I told you so'. In the meantime he's by far their most vocal critic. Unfortunately I never have rated his own ability so don't quite know why he's on a high horse about this as though he's some sort of gaming god. If anything - Chris Roberts of SC has a better established legacy of games to date.

I guess time will tell... I just hope it doesn't escalate to a point it damages SC's reputation beyond repair (which I imagine Derek is looking to orchestrate).
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on October 27, 2015, 09:42:07 am
Fineus: I'm genuinely curious about why you've still got money in SC.  I mean, if the game does get to release and is good, you could buy it then.  But SC's development hasn't been a smooth affair.  They missed every deadline they ever set except for one (which they only met after missing it two or three times), and what they've released has massive gameplay issues.  They have $93M, so your money makes no difference to them, so what part of this project makes you confident enough to keep money in it?

Basically, why have you preordered SC when there's a fair amount of evidence that suggests CR could still screw it up like he did his last game?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Sushi on October 27, 2015, 09:59:41 am
I for one am glad that Phantom Hoover is here to teach us all a lesson of humility and a need to tone down condescending righteous criticism.

I think this thread has plenty of condescension to go around, no need to single anyone out.

Basically, why have you preordered SC when there's a fair amount of evidence that suggests CR could still screw it up like he did his last game?

Speaking for myself: I put down $20 because Arena Commander looked like fun, and I needed something new to get me 6DOF pew pew fix. I didn't see it as a preorder, and I don't see any particular point in "getting my money back." For $20 it's not worth the effort, even if I was sure SC is going to tank (and I'm not sure).

Another way to put it: I got what I paid for. Any actual game that eventually shows up will be a nice bonus. :)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Fineus on October 27, 2015, 10:04:50 am
Fineus: I'm genuinely curious about...

Fair question! I’ll give you a short answer and a slightly longer one…

1)   I bought into the hype.

2)   The idea of a game with such scope, detail and range is highly attractive to me. Other games (like Eve or Elite: Dangerous) haven’t been my cup of tea – I’m not saying they’re bad – I just didn’t ‘get’ them. So this game is my hope for a good space shooter. Having played space module (Arena Commander) I really enjoyed it and find it runs very smoothly on my machine. If they can release a game based around that then I’ll be happy. That’s what I want.

I’m not putting any more funding into SC. I’ve backed it and probably spent more money than is sensible on it – but it’s been within my budget. Call it a gamble if you like – lots of people gamble thousands away with nothing to show for it and people let them get on with it. I see this a little like that – but there is something somewhat more tangible in terms of what the return could be.

If I get burned, I’m going to be upset – but I’m not going to take to the internet and say *anything* - I’ll just have been stung and that’s that. I’m an adult. I made my decisions and since I’m not scraping by day by day in order to fuel my SC spending, it’s not a problem.

More than that I can’t really say. Am I saying ‘it’s definitely going to happen’? No – I can’t. But I remain optimistic and if it comes to nothing then it will simply be a shame for me.

That said – for the wider gaming community – it’ll be a tragedy. It’ll be a blow to crowd funded projects as anyone looking to cast doubt on any project will only need to point at SC and say ‘they had millions and didn’t make it, need I say more?’.

I guess we’ll see… but I’m not going to let it ruin my day. In the meantime I’m all for factually criticising their efforts – but Derek Smart has become fanatical about going after this and I can’t abide his methods or mannerisms.

Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: headdie on October 27, 2015, 10:40:31 am
cant say fairer than that Fineus
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on October 27, 2015, 11:07:21 am
and what they've released has massive gameplay issues. 

It does have bugs but Arena Commander is already fun to play, IMHO. Gameplay has similar feel to Diaspora, which is a good thing. So even if AC is all there was, Id probably buy it. After all, there arent many proper 6DoF combat sims around, are there. And its not like paying $40 will ruin anyone.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: -Joshua- on October 27, 2015, 12:19:54 pm
cant say fairer than that Fineus

Fineus for forum adm... wait.
/me would be all over a +1 feature if this forum had one.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 27, 2015, 12:40:23 pm
Well they did make it personal. And we all know that Derek Smart has a hard enough time when people criticise his games, let alone making it personal. So I'm hardly surprised he's acting like they called him out.

I do see your point... but we (that is the FreeSpace community) of all should know how he can carry on. Remember when he started in on us a few years back?

You mean remember when Derek Smart joined a thread which for 4 and a half pages had been insulting him? Yeah I remember that.
It started with Karajorma saying he was scared by the news and doubted that Derek Smart could 'do any better than his boys' and went downhill from there.

It was ridiculous, petty and seeing his outbursts on Twitter towards SC brings back some major deja vu.

HLP reaped what it sowed.
The only difference between developers like Derek Smart, Chris Roberts and other companies is that some people are smart enough to have a PR man/woman between them and the public.  Neither Smart nor Roberts are apparently inclined to do that (or in the case of Roberts, to make use of it in the recent debacle)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on October 27, 2015, 02:32:19 pm
and what they've released has massive gameplay issues. 

It does have bugs but Arena Commander is already fun to play, IMHO. Gameplay has similar feel to Diaspora, which is a good thing. So even if AC is all there was, Id probably buy it. After all, there arent many proper 6DoF combat sims around, are there. And its not like paying $40 will ruin anyone.
No, AC does not play similarly to Diaspora.  It wants to, but completely fails.  The reason for this are:

Because maneuvering thrusters are so freakishly strong, ships seem to have zero mass and therefore flail all over the place when you're turning.  **** handling, basically.  This isn't even a debatable fact.  It's why every ship has gimballed weapons everywhere.  Trying to aim fixed weapons with these controls is very difficult.  Which brings me to the second issue:

Time to kill is far, far too long.  The harder it is to aim your weapons, the shorter the TTK should be.  SC has gone the other way.  It's hard to hit and it takes forever to kill.  This is why I say the biggest enemy in AC is boredom.  It takes forever to get a gun kill.

There are other issues too, like the terrible HUDs, the cockpits that obscure most of the fights, the poor visual and auditory feedback when you're getting shot at, but those are the two biggest ones.


I think AC is worse than Diaspora in every way except graphics, and even that's debatable.  AC's effects and sounds are pretty bad.

For example, the explosions shown here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHJjIffF8N0) look terrible.



As awesome as Diaspora is, when a $93M game made worked on by 200-500 people is being less than favourably compared to a free game made by a dozen people in their spare time, something's wrong.  And sure, SC isn't done, but flight mechanics are something that should have been nailed down ages ago.  If it plays like this after 3.5 - 4 years of development, it isn't going to change much between now and release.  AC is what made me get out of SC.  It's what tore down the hype fog and convinced me that CR's vision for this game just wasn't going to result in something I'd like, and it's what made me open to evaluating the other problems the project has.  I played in again a few weeks back and it hasn't meaningfully improved.

When they add multi-crew ships, expect AC to get worse.  Multi-crew turreted ships will either be horribly vulnerable or they'll rule the battlespace.  I have never seen a sim, atmospheric or space, that has managed to make them balanced with single-seaters.  Most games make them vulnerable because otherwise, single-seaters are useless.  But if SC goes that route, backers who bought those expensive 250$ ships will rage.  Quite a quandary.


Fineus: Like headdie said, that's very fair.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on October 27, 2015, 04:03:00 pm
Because maneuvering thrusters are so freakishly strong, ships seem to have zero mass and therefore flail all over the place when you're turning.  **** handling, basically.  This isn't even a debatable fact.  It's why every ship has gimballed weapons everywhere.  Trying to aim fixed weapons with these controls is very difficult. 

Funny that you mention this, because I play with fixed weapons in an Aurora, and while aiming is a bit harder than in FS, it is not very difficult and the game is certainly playable in this way. Maybe you are just too used to simplistic Freespace controls that make aiming easy, almost like a FPS?

Ship flailing was a lot worse in the past, I suspect it has to do with imperfect IFCS rather than maximum thruster strengths. Since AC simulates everything, IFCS is tricky.

I do agree that time to kill could be shorter, tough. It was increased several patches ago and I think they will scale it back a bit in the future.

As awesome as Diaspora is, when a $93M game made worked on by 200-500 people is being less than favourably compared to a free game made by a dozen people in their spare time, something's wrong.

You dont need millions to make fun gameplay at all. Diaspora is great, comparing AC gameplay to it is a compliment.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: General Battuta on October 27, 2015, 04:21:25 pm
Funny that you mention this, because I play with fixed weapons in an Aurora, and while aiming is a bit harder than in FS, it is not very difficult and the game is certainly playable in this way. Maybe you are just too used to simplistic Freespace controls that make aiming easy, almost like a FPS?

Yeah, that must be it, FreeSpace has made him soft :nod:
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Lorric on October 27, 2015, 05:45:11 pm
As awesome as Diaspora is, when a $93M game made worked on by 200-500 people is being less than favourably compared to a free game made by a dozen people in their spare time, something's wrong.
About this, Diaspora isn't something built from the ground up by a dozen people. Diaspora was built on a foundation of over 10 years of work by a community on improving and enhancing an engine and editor which was built by :v:, a professional game company, who themselves built that on the foundations they'd laid with Freespace 1.

Freespace 2 in current form stacks up well against anything that exists in the genre afaik. And if it doesn't, I want to know about what it doesn't measure up to so I can play it! :)

I've seen Diaspora held up as a kind of shining example and showcase of what the modern capabilities of Freespace 2 are capable of. I would consider anything that could put the best this place has to offer in the shade as an outstanding achievement even with the great resources Roberts has at his disposal. He's got all those staff, resources and money, but they're starting from scratch with everything, and they don't have the got to be going on 20 years total of time from when work started on the original Freespace to now that's gone into making Freespace 2 what it is today.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: karajorma on October 27, 2015, 06:23:11 pm
You mean remember when Derek Smart joined a thread which for 4 and a half pages had been insulting him? Yeah I remember that.
It started with Karajorma saying he was scared by the news and doubted that Derek Smart could 'do any better than his boys' and went downhill from there.

I should point out that the showcasing of the best FS2 mods in that post was somewhat deliberate given that the we knew that thread was going to get a lot of outside attention.

That said, I'll agree that in the last thread Derek Smart participated in on here, he was a lot better behaved and it was the behaviour of the members of this forum that made me cringe.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on October 27, 2015, 06:48:47 pm
Because maneuvering thrusters are so freakishly strong, ships seem to have zero mass and therefore flail all over the place when you're turning.  **** handling, basically.  This isn't even a debatable fact.  It's why every ship has gimballed weapons everywhere.  Trying to aim fixed weapons with these controls is very difficult. 

Funny that you mention this, because I play with fixed weapons in an Aurora, and while aiming is a bit harder than in FS, it is not very difficult and the game is certainly playable in this way. Maybe you are just too used to simplistic Freespace controls that make aiming easy, almost like a FPS?
Yep, that's it right there.  I'm too used to space sims and WW2 flight sims where my space/aircraft does what I want it to do.  Oh, if only Star Citizen could save me from these simplistic ideas and teach me that half the battle should be with my own ship's controls.  Then I'd be a true hardcore gamer.

For reference, I played with a Super Hornet, a Gladius, and a Mustang.


As awesome as Diaspora is, when a $93M game made worked on by 200-500 people is being less than favourably compared to a free game made by a dozen people in their spare time, something's wrong.
About this, Diaspora isn't something built from the ground up by a dozen people. Diaspora was built on a foundation of over 10 years of work by a community on improving and enhancing an engine and editor which was built by :v:, a professional game company, who themselves built that on the foundations they'd laid with Freespace 1.

Freespace 2 in current form stacks up well against anything that exists in the genre afaik. And if it doesn't, I want to know about what it doesn't measure up to so I can play it! :)

I've seen Diaspora held up as a kind of shining example and showcase of what the modern capabilities of Freespace 2 are capable of. I would consider anything that could put the best this place has to offer in the shade as an outstanding achievement even with the great resources Roberts has at his disposal. He's got all those staff, resources and money, but they're starting from scratch with everything, and they don't have the got to be going on 20 years total of time from when work started on the original Freespace to now that's gone into making Freespace 2 what it is today.
FSO is an amazing project, and Diaspora is probably the pinnacle of what's been done with the engine, and it's one of the best spaace sims ever made.  Yes, FSO's had a lot of work put into it over the years.  But FSO has never had 300+ people working on it full time for 3 years and $93M in funding.  I wouldn't be at all surprised if SC had more man-hours put into it than FSO has.  SC's 'realistic' flight mechanics are what people typically like to point to when explaining why AC is so rough.  That something that complex has never been done before.  But they're wrong.  Flight sims with this kind of fidelity have been done before.

IL-2: Battle of Stalingrad started development in 2011 and was completed last year.  This is a realistic WW2 flight simulator.  As a result, their flight models and combat environments are significantly more complex than any space sim, purely because it's atmospheric combat and has more to consider.  No, it's not completely simulated (that would be pretty much impossible), but it's still more variables to track than a space-based environment needs.  All SC needs to consider is ship mass and thruster location/power.  That's it.  And yet IL-2: BoS has more aircraft than SC does, it's a more complete combat simulator, and the developer completed it with less money and a smaller team.  Star Citizen has no excuse for being in the state it's in.

Multicrew isn't that big a deal when CIG still haven't finished honing their basic combat mechanics.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Lorric on October 27, 2015, 07:33:14 pm
A good chunk of those 300+ people will have been working on things that don't exist within freespace 2. The FPS, the design of characters, the interior ship designs and mechanics, the 10 hours of story segments they have planned, everything to do with the persistent universe and the people they have interacting with the fanbase. I've probably missed more stuff.

So it comes down to how many people and how long have they worked on the mechanics and gameplay of space combat and the design of ships and weapons and such. Obviously they also have the advantage of their cutting edge tech. If Star Citizen does make it out of the door, the fairest comparison with Freespace will probably be comparing Freespace 2 to Squadron 42.

I've not played (or even seen in action) IL-2: Battle of Stalingrad, so I have no idea what it's like or how good of a candidate for comparison to Star Citizen it is, but I understand your explanation for why you brought it up.

I do of course agree that with the resources they have and the promises they made that they need to produce an excellent game. I was mainly concerned about the strength of Freespace 2 being sold short and that doesn't seem like an issue anymore. Thanks for replying.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Turambar on October 28, 2015, 08:41:14 am
I see now.  Aesaar is just the most negative of nancies.  Very well then, carry on.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on October 28, 2015, 01:17:57 pm
The criticisms Aesaar brings up are basic problems that any successful game should easily overcome. That they haven't been, and that the standard response to anyone who asks about them is to deflect or attack, is a very troubling sign in itself.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Turambar on October 28, 2015, 02:03:01 pm
The criticisms Aesaar brings up are basic problems that any successful game should easily overcome. That they haven't been, and that the standard response to anyone who asks about them is to deflect or attack, is a very troubling sign in itself.

it sounds to me like he doesnt know **** about how games actually get developed, and what little he does know doesn't apply to a crowdfunded project of unprecedented scope.

He reads like a typical hyper-negative forum troll, picking apart each thing for more to hate.  If he did it on the SC forums, he'd get traction if he was polite, or would get banned for being toxic.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on October 28, 2015, 02:26:52 pm
He reads like a typical hyper-negative forum troll, picking apart each thing for more to hate.  If he did it on the SC forums, he'd get traction if he was polite, or would get banned for being toxic.

This is absolutely hilarious to me as someone who actually watched Aesaar's journey from being optimistic and defensive about Star Citizen to being as scathing as he is now, spurred on largely by the dismal failure of Arena Commander to present any kind of interesting gameplay.

It's also hilarious when I myself started out mildly sceptical of SC and actively hostile to Elite: Dangerous only to have that perception completely turned around by Frontier's ability to deliver an engaging space combat simulator. And don't give me any fanboy excuses about 'scope', E:D has vastly more completed content.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: AtomicClucker on October 28, 2015, 02:30:21 pm
Well, from my PoV, the chief failing of Star Citizen is failing to deliver compelling game play.

In its current state, I'm not pleased we've waited a few years already and still don't have a solidified package yet. I get it was supposedly Privateer the next coming, but to be frank, I'd rather take a good dogfight simulator over a star-studded cast for the single player component. Probably another two to three years before it'll be sewn together, but after a while the recent offerings have been less than spectacular.

I would be a lot happier if we had a decent flight module with multiplayer, multicrewed ships, and fireworks.

That being said, I'm putting SC on the backburner with a "wait and see" approach. Perhaps the long wait will be worth it, or else we'll get a subpar product. It's probably at the point it's too "invested" to fail, but I've certainly abandoned any vibes of a Wing Commander experience until it actually happens or crashes.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Turambar on October 28, 2015, 02:34:42 pm
He reads like a typical hyper-negative forum troll, picking apart each thing for more to hate.  If he did it on the SC forums, he'd get traction if he was polite, or would get banned for being toxic.

This is absolutely hilarious to me as someone who actually watched Aesaar's journey from being optimistic and defensive about Star Citizen to being as scathing as he is now, spurred on largely by the dismal failure of Arena Commander to present any kind of interesting gameplay.

It's also hilarious when I myself started out mildly sceptical of SC and actively hostile to Elite: Dangerous only to have that perception completely turned around by Frontier's ability to deliver an engaging space combat simulator. And don't give me any fanboy excuses about 'scope', E:D has vastly more completed content.

I am playing Elite, and I know how far the game has come since launch and it's really impressive.  I come across people who havent played in months and complain about things that havent been issues for a while, and they sound like Aesaar.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on October 28, 2015, 02:36:30 pm
The criticisms Aesaar brings up are basic problems that any successful game should easily overcome. That they haven't been, and that the standard response to anyone who asks about them is to deflect or attack, is a very troubling sign in itself.

it sounds to me like he doesnt know **** about how games actually get developed, and what little he does know doesn't apply to a crowdfunded project of unprecedented scope.

He reads like a typical hyper-negative forum troll, picking apart each thing for more to hate.  If he did it on the SC forums, he'd get traction if he was polite, or would get banned for being toxic.

No, I'd get banned because dissent gets banned on RSI.  But I'm glad you're here to tell us how looking at how other games in SC's genre were developed is invalid because SC is speshul.   Clearly, the only person who knows how to make games is Christ Roberts.  That's why CIG have missed all of their deadlines.  The scope of the game has changed massively since, er, last year.

(http://i.imgur.com/esOL5Zd.jpg)

But insinuating that holding CIG accountable for their schedule slips and broken promises means you just don't know how game development works is a neat idea.  You've obviously been spending a lot of time on RSI.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on October 28, 2015, 02:38:15 pm
I mean, this is how game development works. It's Freelancer all over again, with no publisher to kick CR off the project so it can be released.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Turambar on October 28, 2015, 02:40:14 pm

But insinuating that holding CIG accountable for their schedule slips and broken promises means you just don't know how game development works is a neat idea.  You've clearly been spending a lot of time on RSI.

Implying that deadlines are relevant to game development
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on October 28, 2015, 02:43:25 pm
being finished is generally considered an important feature of a game
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: AtomicClucker on October 28, 2015, 02:44:11 pm

But insinuating that holding CIG accountable for their schedule slips and broken promises means you just don't know how game development works is a neat idea.  You've clearly been spending a lot of time on RSI.

Implying that deadlines are relevant to game development

Depends. Publishers crush studios who repeatedly fail deadlines, while others realize that giving a "specific" deadline is a bad ideas because they shift due to a myriad of circumstances,. But I think we're not above holding Star Citizen to scrutiny. Perhaps they would've just benefited and straight up said "We're making an AAA level of game, five years is at least to be expected."
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on October 28, 2015, 02:45:19 pm

But insinuating that holding CIG accountable for their schedule slips and broken promises means you just don't know how game development works is a neat idea.  You've clearly been spending a lot of time on RSI.

Implying that deadlines are relevant to game development
Deadlines are important to every project.  If a team consistently fails to meet deadlines set by that team's leader, it shows a serious issue with management, either because he/she overestimates their team's abilities or underestimates the work required (or in Roberts' case, changes his mind about features all the time).  The people handling the actual technical side of things at CIG are very, very talented.  CIG management is incompetent.  If it were not, they wouldn't have missed all their deadlines.

You can't point to increasing scope as the cause of this.  That image I posted up there was shown at CitCon last year (or later, can't remember).  The only item on that list they've delivered is the Social module, a glorified Mass Effect landing zone but with multiplayer and nothing to actually do.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: The E on October 28, 2015, 02:50:30 pm
Consider this: From that timeline, the only thing that was even remotely near schedule was the "planetside" thing. And what was it again? A single map, not even a particularly large one, mostly empty and technically unimpressive, very much a generic brown-grey sci fi city map that looked a lot like the Vancouver multiplayer maps from Mass Effect 3. Oh, and there was a chat client in there.

Sure, those are all building blocks that are needed. But a grand revolution in spacesim or MMO gameplay it wasn't. Just like the hangar, it's a showcase for the modeller's skills and nowhere near anything resembling a game.

And that was all they could produce, three years after the start of principal development, with 300 people and 90 million USD in the bank. Other game studios have produced full games with less money and less time. Yes, I know SC has got a larger scope than most MMOs. but in the same timeframe, Elite went from kickstarter to released game, with a steady stream of content updates that make the game deeper. Compared to its peers in the MMO Space Sim genre, SC shows sluggish development, a weird approach to communicating the state of the project, a community eager to throw money at the promise of a jpg, and a thoroughly unpleasant approach to criticisms on its own site or associated communities like the SC reddit.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Ghostavo on October 28, 2015, 02:56:11 pm

But insinuating that holding CIG accountable for their schedule slips and broken promises means you just don't know how game development works is a neat idea.  You've clearly been spending a lot of time on RSI.

Implying that deadlines are relevant to game development

When the money eventually runs out due to deadlines being missed, I wonder how their cult followers backers will react.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Lorric on October 28, 2015, 03:00:40 pm

But insinuating that holding CIG accountable for their schedule slips and broken promises means you just don't know how game development works is a neat idea.  You've clearly been spending a lot of time on RSI.

Implying that deadlines are relevant to game development

When the money eventually runs out due to deadlines being missed, I wonder how their cult followers backers will react.
That's something I'm worried about actually. I think it could do some real damage to some of these people.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on October 28, 2015, 03:56:55 pm
Missed deadlines are not a big deal in game development, especially if the game has large scope and also attempts to do something new. It happens often. Nobody will care about missed deadlines after the game is released and is good, anyway.

It may realistically take 5 years to develop a big game like SC.

2012 + 5 = 2017

As for Elite, it has much less content than Star Citizen is supposed to have. You cannot leave your seat. It is not a bad game, but it is pretty shallow. I expect much more from SC. So its no surprise that Elite is already released, when it was much simpler to make. You are comparing apples and oranges. And dont even get me started on their weird fly model, Arena Commander in its unfinished state is already superior to that mess, IMHO..
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: The E on October 28, 2015, 04:27:44 pm
As for Elite, it has much less content than Star Citizen is supposed to have. You cannot leave your seat. It is not a bad game, but it is pretty shallow. I expect much more from SC. So its no surprise that Elite is already released, when it was much simpler to make. You are comparing apples and oranges. And dont even get me started on their weird fly model, Arena Commander in its unfinished state is already superior to that mess, IMHO..

Correction: You cannot do so now. You will be able to as part of the Horizon upgrades, incoming over the next year. See, the thing is, while SC is trying to come out of the gate with every single thing in place, Frontier concentrated on getting the core of the game done and are now expanding it. This model seems to work out much better than CIG's "Let's hire a bunch of studios to work on pieces of the game in isolation and hope we can merge it into a coherent whole at some point" approach.

And as for the flight model, while that's ultimately a matter of personal preference, I think for all the comparisons between SC and Diaspora we're making in this regard, Elite actually managed to create a flight model that is more responsive and intuitive than both.

Not to mention that playing Elite actually feels much better due to it being very scalable indeed, as opposed to the unoptimized mess that seems to be Arena Commander.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Sushi on October 28, 2015, 04:39:38 pm

Correction: You cannot do so now. You will be able to as part of the Horizon upgrades, incoming over the next year.


Well, sort of. You get a fade-to-black transition to a different seat. :) I think "space legs" and being able to walk around properly won't be coming until 2017 at the earliest.


And as for the flight model, while that's ultimately a matter of personal preference, I think for all the comparisons between SC and Diaspora we're making in this regard, Elite actually managed to create a flight model that is more responsive and intuitive than both.

All three have the same basic constraint of "we like 6DOF newtonian physics but want flying to actually be fun", and choose slightly different ways of breaking physics to achieve that result.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on October 28, 2015, 04:56:40 pm
Missed deadlines are not a big deal in game development, especially if the game has large scope and also attempts to do something new. It happens often. Nobody will care about missed deadlines after the game is released and is good, anyway.
Again, one or two missed deadlines is no big deal.  Every deadline being missed is a big deal because it says very bad things about how competent management is.  Sure, no one would care about missed deadlines if the game was good, but if the management is incompetent, the game isn't terribly likely to be good.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 28, 2015, 05:16:19 pm
So here's a horrible hitjob on Star Citizen's cockpit.

First, a clear screenshot of it:

(http://i.imgur.com/EIrBTWi.jpg)

A 1920 x 1080 basic screenshot of PURE IMMERSIVENESS. That means a whole 2 073 600 pixels.

Now, let's all count the number of pixels that are 100% opaque to the actual beautiful things on the universe, and the incredible IMMERSIVE overlays that will let you know everything you want to know about this very very immersive breathable game.

(http://i.imgur.com/wcxLplF.jpg?1)

Now, the real opaque stuff counts to ~ 919 150 pixels. That's 44% of the entire screen of immersive junk on your face.
The overlays will count to ~ 243 000 pixels, slightly less than 12%.

So, for all those keeping score, that's 56% of the screen encumbered by something, most of which utterly opaque, leaving merely 44% of the screen estate to try to understand what the **** is going on. And these 44% are all fragmented. There's this small opening up in the top that is absolutely useless, and then there are these front-left and front-right awareness windows that are hard to pin down whatever the **** is going on there.

The one window where you'd think it would be the most important one to figure the **** out what the hell is going on has a STAGGERING 175 000 pixels. Which amounts to 8.5% of the total. Eight. Point. Five.

Funny stat: Even in 1998, running Freespace 2 at 640x480 (I mean, who would burn their eyes at that, but still!), you'd still be left with 307 200 pixels (Most of which with overlays, BUT STILL).
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Lorric on October 28, 2015, 05:35:14 pm
It's very bad. It ceases to be a problem if cockpits are optional. I don't know if they will be or not. It feels claustrophobic. And having that box around the centre is going to make it harder to line things up properly and cause irritation.

This is the far future, we should be able to have entirely enclosed cockpits but the technology makes it so you can see everything as if you were looking through clear glass.

Desire to actually play this if released would take a big hit for me if I was forced to have that cockpit on screen.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on October 28, 2015, 05:36:15 pm
Quote
It ceases to be a problem if cockpits are optional. I don't know if they will be or not.
They won't be. You'll be forced into all this immersion.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: SkycladGuardian on October 28, 2015, 05:38:43 pm
Hehe, this reminds me of the "good ol' " days of space sims in the early and mid 90's where cockpits vhelped to visualize the ship class you're flying. Interceptors and space superioriy fighters had good vision with few cockpit elements cluttering up the main view (like the A-Wing or Arrow in WC3) and heavy fighters and bombers had bulky cockpits and the view was very encumbered (e.g. Y-Wing, TIE Bomber, Longbow or Broadsword).

Chris Roberts just wants you to feel the spirit of his retro-style next-gen space sim ;)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 28, 2015, 05:41:51 pm
The criticisms Aesaar brings up are basic problems that any successful game should easily overcome. That they haven't been, and that the standard response to anyone who asks about them is to deflect or attack, is a very troubling sign in itself.

it sounds to me like he doesnt know **** about how games actually get developed, and what little he does know doesn't apply to a crowdfunded project of unprecedented scope.

What's proper game development I wonder?
Is it gray boxing a game and getting the basic components and gameplay down before applying the finishing touches?
Or is it creating an okay game with very detailed models and then starting and finishing other very detailed models in turn later on while the gameplay still remains "okay" and unfinished.

I wonder if for the new Doom did Bethesda/iD finish the Imp before bothering to start the Cyber Demon?  Or did they get all enemies at some stage of completion so that they could be put into the game and the level designers could star their work while the modellers, animators and FX guys were finishing theirs.

Star Citizen's development comes across to me as the way a team of amateurs would MOD a game. And in fact some of the teams on HLP are probably doing a better job with their pipelines.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 28, 2015, 05:44:49 pm
It's very bad. It ceases to be a problem if cockpits are optional. I don't know if they will be or not. It feels claustrophobic. And having that box around the centre is going to make it harder to line things up properly and cause irritation.

This is the far future, we should be able to have entirely enclosed cockpits but the technology makes it so you can see everything as if you were looking through clear glass.

Desire to actually play this if released would take a big hit for me if I was forced to have that cockpit on screen.

Could be worse:
https://youtu.be/oR1MnjqTlXY?t=50s
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 28, 2015, 05:48:58 pm
That's an entirely different game design. The whole theme is to be inside this moving bunker. And each mode of "watching" is actually superior to Star Citizen's.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on October 28, 2015, 07:04:42 pm
Here, for comparison, is a screenshot of Elite: Dangerous' cockpit/HUD:

(http://www.pcinvasion.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/elite-dangerous-1.png)

Note how it too has a big block taking up the bottom of the screen, but the geniuses at Frontier used this otherwise useless space for the bulk of the HUD, which as a bonus now has a reliably contrasting background. In the rest of the screen, where the universe is, they put in a few small struts and the weapon information.

It's not hard to do this stuff right. CIG are getting it consistently wrong because of chronic mismanagement.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 28, 2015, 07:50:37 pm
That's an entirely different game design. The whole theme is to be inside this moving bunker. And each mode of "watching" is actually superior to Star Citizen's.

Yeah, it was a joke.

Also you're missing a very possible aspect of game development, the fact that the cockpit is intentionally large to enable better frame rates. If the game has less to render, the GPU has less to render, ensuring better performance, and so forth. It's an ongoing cheat used on consoles for games like COD where they use large models and small FOVs.

I know that Star Citizen is going for no holds barred development but presumably they also don't want to release a janky looking video with frame drops every half second.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Turambar on October 28, 2015, 08:16:44 pm
I'm expecting to have a VR set by the time I'm playing Star Citizen. 
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on October 28, 2015, 08:24:26 pm
Too bad Star Citizen's going to be **** on VR because of the obsession with headbob and letterbox helmets.

e: Also VR doesn't compensate for **** cockpit visibility; why do you think real fighter jets have big unobstructed glass bubbles?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on October 28, 2015, 09:53:55 pm
Too bad Star Citizen's going to be **** on VR because of the obsession with headbob and letterbox helmets.

e: Also VR doesn't compensate for **** cockpit visibility; why do you think real fighter jets have big unobstructed glass bubbles?
CIG's focus on realism and verisimilitude is applied to the most nonsensical things.  Rather than design sensible, realistic helmets, CIG intentionally designed stupid helmets just so they'd obscure the edges of the screen, even though that helmet, used by an actual person, would almost completely obscure his/her peripheral vision (because screens have much smaller FoV than human eyes do).  These are helmets designed for CQB environments:

(http://i.imgur.com/Aiy6gw1.jpg)


This is a consistent thing with SC.  Simulate reality, but only halfway.

Helmets obscure vision in real life, so helmets are designed to maximise visibility.   SC forgets that last part.  Helmets designed to obscure narrow screen FoV.  CIG create very poorly designed helmets that would never get accepted IRL because they destroy visibility and therefore situational awareness. 

End result: Less realistic than if they'd left the feature out entirely.


Headbobbing.  Non-issue in real life.  It happens, but your brain filters it out.  SC forgets that last part.   CIG write a complex stabilization engine that sorta smooths it out, but it's still an issue.

End result: less realistic than if they'd left out the feature entirely.


Cockpits are visible in real life, so fighters are designed to maximize cockpit visibility.  SC forgets that last part.  Most ships, even military fighters, have zero rear visibility, fairly mediocre side visibility, and okayish front visibility.  Test pilots would ***** about this nonstop IRL, fighters probably wouldn't get accepted into service because of compromised situational awareness.  To add to this, the cockpit glass in SC is stated to be just as strong as the hull.  It isn't even a weakspot because CIG don't want pilot snipes (this makes the helmets stupid too). 

End result: less realistic than if they'd left out the feature entirely.

Addendum: the F-35 was designed with external cameras which, combined with the helmet, allow the pilot to basically look through the plane.  It doesn't work all that well ATM (like everything else about the F-35), but the point remains.  In 10 or 20 years, cockpit visibility could be a complete non-issue.


I'm tempted to go on because there's even more, but I'm tired, so I'll leave it there.


It's semi-realism.  Just enough to adversely affect gameplay, not enough to actually make sense.


EDIT: I lied. I just couldn't leave this one out because it's hilarious:

Women can wear heels, but they can also not wear heels.  SC forgets that last part.  CIG want women to be able to wear heels, but they don't want to be unrealistic and use the same animations for both, so they made all women wear heels all the time. (https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/comment/5622483/#Comment_5622483)  (Third last post on the page if post link doesn't work)

End result: lol.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: CT27 on October 28, 2015, 10:51:52 pm
Is the single player game Roberts is producing (called "Squadron 42" IIRC) having problems too?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on October 28, 2015, 10:54:17 pm
Is the single player game Roberts is producing (called "Squadron 42" IIRC) having problems too?
Yes, it was originally meant to be released in Nov. 2014.  Then last year they said that it'd be released in Fall 2015.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: CT27 on October 29, 2015, 01:13:31 am
last year they said that it'd be released in Fall 2015.


...and look at where we are now right?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: The E on October 29, 2015, 02:08:12 am
Also you're missing a very possible aspect of game development, the fact that the cockpit is intentionally large to enable better frame rates. If the game has less to render, the GPU has less to render, ensuring better performance, and so forth. It's an ongoing cheat used on consoles for games like COD where they use large models and small FOVs.

That's not what's happening here though. In ye olde days (like early Wing Commander olde), the cockpit stuff was there so that you could restrict 3D rendering to only a small part of the screen, but in SC, everything you see on screen goes through the 3D pipeline. They're not going to get a framerate increase by rendering cockpits.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on October 29, 2015, 02:49:46 am
Again, one or two missed deadlines is no big deal.  Every deadline being missed is a big deal because it says very bad things about how competent management is.  Sure, no one would care about missed deadlines if the game was good, but if the management is incompetent, the game isn't terribly likely to be good.

I dont agree with that, once game development begins to slip, it is likely you will miss every single deadline, because time adds up. The important part is not how many deadlines they missed, it is how much time did they miss them by. If it is by less than 1-2 years (for a total development time of 4-5 years), I can still forgive them as long as the final product is good.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on October 29, 2015, 03:04:38 am
If one deadline slips you can update the subsequent deadlines to account for that. CIG have done this constantly and they still miss the updated deadlines.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on October 29, 2015, 10:03:09 am
Also you're missing a very possible aspect of game development, the fact that the cockpit is intentionally large to enable better frame rates. If the game has less to render, the GPU has less to render, ensuring better performance, and so forth. It's an ongoing cheat used on consoles for games like COD where they use large models and small FOVs.

That's not what's happening here though. In ye olde days (like early Wing Commander olde), the cockpit stuff was there so that you could restrict 3D rendering to only a small part of the screen, but in SC, everything you see on screen goes through the 3D pipeline. They're not going to get a framerate increase by rendering cockpits.
Last time I played WC3 (a year or 3 ago), disabling the cockpit actually gave an incredibly significant increase in frames per second. With cockpit on it would chug along at sub 20 fps.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: The E on October 29, 2015, 10:14:27 am
Huh, that's interesting.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 29, 2015, 01:14:37 pm
Here, for comparison, is a screenshot of Elite: Dangerous' cockpit/HUD:

(http://www.pcinvasion.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/elite-dangerous-1.png)

Note how it too has a big block taking up the bottom of the screen, but the geniuses at Frontier used this otherwise useless space for the bulk of the HUD, which as a bonus now has a reliably contrasting background. In the rest of the screen, where the universe is, they put in a few small struts and the weapon information.

It's not hard to do this stuff right. CIG are getting it consistently wrong because of chronic mismanagement.

That's an interesting comparison. Notice how the frame structure of the front windows are thinner and allow a much more fluid understanding of the entire left-right field of view (You can draw a straight line between one edge of the screen to the other without being encumbered by the ship's structure. And you're correct, they placed their HUDs in the correct places, except for two overlays on both the left and the right, which sit on top of.... the very frame structure I was talking about, so to minimize impact on what's seen outside.


I still think it's visually crowded. They could have perfectly downsized the cockpit framework and the below parts. A comparison with my previous screenshot follows:

(http://i.imgur.com/VpoY4fJ.jpg)

2 073 600 pixels the same.
~ 852 400 pixels encumbered by the structure of the ship.
~ 40 000 pixels in overlays over the windows.

That means 41% of the pixels are the ship's structure (compared to 44% of Star Citizen). It's not that different a number, but it feels better designed because most of it draws a horizontal line at the bottom which is much nicer in terms of visual design, and the framework on top is way way thinner, giving the impression of continuity between the windows.

2% are spent on overlays on top of those windows, compared with 12% on Star Citizen. This might vary according to missions, etc.

Unencumbered we have then 57% of the screen real estate to watch the sky, compared with the piss poor 44% of Star Citizen. And there's no 8.5% window at the middle of the screen where you have to figure almost everything out in it.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on October 29, 2015, 02:37:58 pm
That means 41% of the pixels are the ship's structure (compared to 44% of Star Citizen).

You see, it is not a significant difference. So I find complaints about SC cockpits unfounded, at least in contrast to Elite. And we would have to analyze more ships to really get to the truth. Per ship cockpit variation is probably going to be high both in Elite and in SC, so it is hard to judge just from one example.

Where I do see an issue are those FPS helmets. Field of view seems far too restricted on them. Probably an issue of Chris chasing after muh immersion while forgetting about realism.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: The E on October 29, 2015, 02:42:58 pm
That means 41% of the pixels are the ship's structure (compared to 44% of Star Citizen).

You see, it is not a significant difference. So I find complaints about SC cockpits unfounded, at least in contrast to Elite. And we would have to analyze more ships to really get to the truth. Per ship cockpit variation is probably going to be high both in Elite and in SC, so it is hard to judge just from one example.

Numerically, it isn't. In terms of how it feels though? Every single E:D cockpit feels spacious, giving you a good overview of the space you're in. SC, by comparison, makes things feel cramped and tiny, and actually overloaded in terms of the information presented. Think of it like this: E:D gives you what you need, SC gives you what it thinks you want.

And SC is pretty much wrong about that.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on October 29, 2015, 02:48:02 pm
You see, it is not a significant difference. So I find complaints about SC cockpits unfounded, at least in contrast to Elite. And we would have to analyze more ships to really get to the truth. Per ship cockpit variation is probably going to be high both in Elite and in SC, so it is hard to judge just from one example.

There's very little variation in E:D, just the model of the dashboard and the exact placement of the struts. Anyway, the percentages are irrelevant: the difference is in the use of screen space. Star Citizen has a big block of obstruction right in the middle of the screen, where the player's attention is focused, and puts the clear views off at either side where they're then just a background to the HUD. The obstructed area at the bottom of the screen is just a blank model, there's no useful information there.

If I had to sum up Star Citizen's design in one word it would be thoughtless.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: General Battuta on October 29, 2015, 02:58:04 pm
*hundreds of individually modeled panels and switches light up*

Yes, immersion. Immerse me

*gloves creak with physically based fabric tension*

I will paw lovingly at the controls. Immerse me. LEt the immersion rise up over my knees and lap against my balls

*an optometrist's helmet with 40000 pinhole sized lenses seals over my head*

Switches. Buttons. More. More HUD. Turn every switch with paralyzed paddle hands until I Activate HUD. The immersion is so warm....

*blinding neon technoflash swarms and spins over all the cockpit glass, immersion splashes over my helmet. everything begins to short circuit and catch on fire*

YESSSssssssss it's like being in the WOMB. I can smell it through my micropore simulated RSI helmet filters. It smells like mother

*my body begins to dissolve into the sea of immersion as the fire spreads*

I'm going home
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: General Battuta on October 29, 2015, 03:02:03 pm
We are boarding the Huhn ship. They charge at us with their katanas screaming 'ten million years' and only a wall of hyperlead from our M2 Garind assault rifles can stop them!

As I take up firing position my model's left toe crunches against a wall. A huge mistake! I will be rightfully punished for failing to treat my avatar as a real person in real space! My character pauses to play a stagger animation and a gorgeously lip-synced howl of pain captured from the voice of major Hollywood actor Rocco Siffredi. Should've pre-ordered the ADRENAL SYSTEM SIMULATOR PACK I think as my Full Immersion Jumpsuit calculates the correct amount of nausea and humiliation to inflict and begins to punch me in the dick
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 29, 2015, 04:37:25 pm
You see, it is not a significant difference. So I find complaints about SC cockpits unfounded, at least in contrast to Elite.

It's like I spent a few quality minutes thinking about the design of both cockpits and gave what I believe is a qualified analysis on both and you just went on and completely ignored it and cherry picked the one quantifiable point where SC is merely "slightly" worse than ED.

That's the kind of comment that makes me think, "yeah I'm glad I make thoughtful and justified comments, there's nothing like being quotemined and dismissed in a few sentences just a minute later".
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 29, 2015, 04:41:00 pm
You know what's the best DLC they can ever come up with?

A "Virtual Reality Headset" that you will place on your head and suddenly you can see the whole FOV ala FreeSpace2 with overlay information as if the ship didn't even exist.

99 bucks. 109 with custom designed logos and colors.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Lorric on October 29, 2015, 07:53:41 pm
That means 41% of the pixels are the ship's structure (compared to 44% of Star Citizen).

You see, it is not a significant difference. So I find complaints about SC cockpits unfounded, at least in contrast to Elite. And we would have to analyze more ships to really get to the truth. Per ship cockpit variation is probably going to be high both in Elite and in SC, so it is hard to judge just from one example.
To add to what others have been saying, imagine what it would be like if the Star Citizen cockpit was clear except for a solid square in the centre.

I don't know how Luis is getting his numbers, but I can believe it. And at the same time I was really surprised at that small difference compared to how the different cockpits have made me feel. It makes me think of how you can enter a room and rearrange the items and furniture and make it appear much more spacious even though nothing has been removed from the room.

From what footage of E:D I've watched, I've never felt the cockpits to be a problem, and I don't like cockpits at the best of times. They feel open and spacious. Does that Star Citizen cockpit not bother you at all?

I will paw lovingly at the controls. Immerse me. LEt the immersion rise up over my knees and lap against my balls

Memories...

There wasn't anything extreme about the trip I went on, but there were still some pretty narrow spaces to squeeze through. We also had to wade through some cold water, and I remember one guy shouting "Argh! My balls!" Funny. I was juuuuuust tall enough to avoid this, I mean down to the millimeter. The stalactites and stalacmite formations were extremely beautiful with water glistening off them as well. We also all ended up turning off our helmet lights to experience the total darkness. But there was something wondrous about the whole experience.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: karajorma on October 29, 2015, 08:39:02 pm
It's like I spent a few quality minutes thinking about the design of both cockpits and gave what I believe is a qualified analysis on both and you just went on and completely ignored it and cherry picked the one quantifiable point where SC is merely "slightly" worse than ED.

That's the kind of comment that makes me think, "yeah I'm glad I make thoughtful and justified comments, there's nothing like being quotemined and dismissed in a few sentences just a minute later".

The first refuge of people who are wrong is to cherry pick something that makes them feel like they are right. The rest of us got your point and given that this is a modding forum and we've got people who design cockpits here, it's probably very useful, but you're never going to persuade the cult of Star Citizen that they are wrong about anything.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Kobrar44 on October 30, 2015, 05:12:22 am
So on each of these pics ~half of the screen is black.

You can see the most important factor is the middle of the screen and width/size of black blocks. In SC cockpit even the middle of the canopy rises towards the middle of the screen, obscuring it, not to mention the thick bars. Horizontal canopy with carefully spaced out horizontal struts seems to work better to me.
(http://oi65.tinypic.com/xa7o6.jpg) (http://oi65.tinypic.com/xa7o6.jpg)
(http://oi66.tinypic.com/125tkci.jpg) (http://oi66.tinypic.com/125tkci.jpg)
(http://oi65.tinypic.com/34sgqbq.jpg) (http://oi65.tinypic.com/34sgqbq.jpg)
(http://oi67.tinypic.com/2mfkmzl.jpg) (http://oi67.tinypic.com/2mfkmzl.jpg)
(http://oi64.tinypic.com/eqw96w.jpg) (http://oi64.tinypic.com/eqw96w.jpg)
(http://oi68.tinypic.com/2v9f3h5.jpg) (http://oi68.tinypic.com/2v9f3h5.jpg)
(http://oi65.tinypic.com/2vwikat.jpg) (http://oi65.tinypic.com/2vwikat.jpg)
(http://oi64.tinypic.com/1z99v6.jpg) (http://oi64.tinypic.com/1z99v6.jpg)
(http://oi63.tinypic.com/11wbibr.jpg) (http://oi63.tinypic.com/11wbibr.jpg)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on October 30, 2015, 05:15:37 am
Does that Star Citizen cockpit not bother you at all?

It bothers me on Merlin snub fighter, thats where the cockpit covers the middle of the screen. I doubt it will stay that way, tough. Does not bother me much on other fighters, but then I am the kind of guy who is bothered by lack of a cockpit and immediately installs cockpit mod before every FS playthrough..
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Luis Dias on October 30, 2015, 08:07:11 am
Karajorma, thanks for the kind word, and Kobrar, that's an excellent, really great exercise :D

Lorric, it's fairly easy to count pixels in Photoshop, through the Histogram function.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on October 30, 2015, 03:44:32 pm


you are the hero this thread deserves
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: IronBeer on November 06, 2015, 09:16:34 am
After a couple weeks of back-and-forth, I've gotten my pledge from 2012 refunded in full. I wash my hands of Star Citizen now, perhaps I'll buy back in when/if they actually release.

At this point, I don't think Star Citizen is going anywhere unless CRob gets put on a shorter chain or is removed from a decision-making capacity. Saga of Freelancer, Verse 2.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on November 06, 2015, 10:06:24 am
He can't get put on a shorter chain without being removed from decisionmaking capacity, and that's never going to happen with Star Citizen's sales pitch and community being built around his cult of personality.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Ghostavo on November 14, 2015, 10:23:25 am
Foundry 42 in debt? (https://twitter.com/dsmart/status/665562132990328832)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: headdie on November 14, 2015, 11:01:45 am
The filled accounts say no but its nothing like what they had
companieshouse.gov.uk (https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/08703814/filing-history)
Filed Documents 13 Nov 2015 (https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/document-api-images-prod/docs/8oQR_UpNdWR9q7RkeZ-JtbMq-ZnnUXHoaN2Euymrif0/application-pdf?AWSAccessKeyId=ASIAILRC5MA3GE47RXDQ&Expires=1447520108&Signature=D%2BrvAGmrZtkbZM5s5DJHcZ8kb%2BQ%3D&x-amz-security-token=AQoDYXdzEC4a4AP1EBmQMjc0hG6eatVNQh3Q0yTuyEOmFU%2FuJ59uoB6cMzqh9aAV5HrbwRBLr%2Fleqi5N72vfi2aX1GmAVRnvO%2B4ZPFhCpaG6zsTfLzD7AfyrIzMM2BMoA1Mh8DPVjZ9cZGyFO9n1YA3aCrPdrkpSIXZWJpLrTiLfqu0x7sk%2F%2B%2Fe3elQq10Feh1Xh8FjYPZ%2FTLMkwqtUzvVVJU1sbBkYLfh9vFIWytwkNWJ5MuHlb3knGGh65pPyyJUTVFIHGQfHItrzMHVvsBvuUnawLL5ERV8GP3mBcIAiAYNnBMTEj3QbGiv7rSvKQH4iEIor0d9pfBO0HM2RxQmlR2AayhSaE3QWUX90xIJ%2BzzED1Jg2EV27KoXb9ZWKb48Xy55r5aoask5YhGuqCBcRCZeMcNe2hbz4ZsxoePgx54tsmtwpXNoX7dNQ8cZVGrjpyPWxN3jZQPFhWiunCGl6irkXyUUkCL5BfNM9d1wrA1apLhueORW0MklasIRczDR0hCj3WgJhLZzu1zixHxhBM7%2BUQFw0cVQtU7TBaolZFRXzhSrIarlf1kTGeV7Ljl9m%2BbEnervjgAxT%2B7ibshhDwgkqBAwlRh4JIiBIP4uvhnsZiaMgivxdSh07zlyUJDLYBgovVkhNY9u0gvtycsgU%3D)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on November 14, 2015, 02:58:53 pm
We reading a different document?
Says Current Assetts:

Debtors: 1million or so dollars
Cash in the bank: 640K

1 million - 640K = 360K in debt no?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: headdie on November 14, 2015, 03:04:56 pm
Missed that one thanks.

Also as a small technical point this is a formal submission to Companies House so the values will be Pounds Sterling
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Kobrar44 on November 14, 2015, 05:48:16 pm
1 million - 640K = 360K in debt no?
More like million + 640k = 1640k. And this is not in debt.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Black Wolf on November 14, 2015, 08:04:15 pm
The Debtors entry is listed sa "current asset", which means it's a cash or easily-converted-to-cash asset - in this context I'd say it means people owe Squadron 42 £1 million - the most likely source being the parent company or possibly delayed crowdfunding pledges.

In any case, this data is over a year old. Doesn't mean much on the right now.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Kiloku on November 14, 2015, 08:23:19 pm
I'm sorry to go a bit out of the current subject, but the first post says

Quote
A move that, given his history with HLP, will likely come as a shock to nobody here.

What is his history with HLP? I've been a member for years, but I only ever heard of Derek for the first time this year. This got me curious and I couldn't find it in the thread.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: karajorma on November 14, 2015, 09:17:38 pm
Well this might be dredging up the past, but here you go (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=25162.0). Specifically I'm talking about Derek Smart himself turning up and trying to argue his point of view.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: NGTM-1R on November 14, 2015, 09:30:27 pm
Well this might be dredging up the past, but here you go (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=25162.0). Specifically I'm talking about Derek Smart himself turning up and trying to argue his point of view.

Loading that thread's second page caused something random to demand a password from me. You...may want to look into that.

Quote
A username and password are being requested by http://www.mr-johnson.com. The site says: "Hoy Chummer! Bevor es wei"
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: deathspeed on November 14, 2015, 09:49:47 pm
Well this might be dredging up the past, but here you go (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=25162.0). Specifically I'm talking about Derek Smart himself turning up and trying to argue his point of view.

Loading that thread's second page caused something random to demand a password from me. You...may want to look into that.

Quote
A username and password are being requested by http://www.mr-johnson.com. The site says: "Hoy Chummer! Bevor es wei"

I just had the same thing happen, using MS Edge browser.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Kiloku on November 14, 2015, 10:16:48 pm
Confirming "hoy chummer" password request also happens here. Firefox 42.0, Windows 10

Edit: About the thread itself. Man, that was 11 years ago. Hard to believe, even.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: karajorma on November 14, 2015, 10:36:59 pm
Probably an image link to a page that is now password protected. I don't get the request though. The page is probably blocked in China or something so it doesn't get past the DNS request.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on November 16, 2015, 06:28:28 pm
Derek put another blog post up:
http://www.dereksmart.org/2015/11/interstellar-pirates/ (http://www.dereksmart.org/2015/11/interstellar-pirates/)

It's waaay too long but one thing I found interesting from that article was this:

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/pledge/Packages/Squadron-42-Preorder (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/pledge/Packages/Squadron-42-Preorder)

This package allows you to pre-order Squadron 42, bundled with Star Citizen, at its all-time lowest price. This time-limited offer will end in 2016 when Squadron 42 becomes an item of its own.

Wasn't Squadron 42 supposed to be a part of Star Citizen?
Now this sale item is explicitly saying that it will be sold separately?


When and if Squadron 42 does come out I'll bet we'll see two things:
A sale price for Chapter 1
A second price for the "entire" game (aka Season Pass)

And given how much some of the concept ships are selling for I wonder how much that entire game is going to go for. Most games have been ~20 dollars per episode with ~60 dollar full game (Tell Tale Games). Or maybe ~15 dollars for DLC map pack and maybe 4-5 map packs in a season pass. Will SQ42 be this price? Or will it be like 30 dollars for chapter 1 with the full game 100-120 USD (aka Limited Edition game price for stuff with statues and ****)

Also isn't the statement "all time lowest price" an outright lie? Wasn't the minimum price 30 dollars for the KS for the game? How is 45 USD < 30 USD?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: NGTM-1R on November 16, 2015, 06:36:44 pm
Wasn't Squadron 42 supposed to be a part of Star Citizen?

No, it's been pretty explicit from the start that Squadron 42 will be a single-player prequel campaign that will have some mechanical differences of unknown level from Star Citizen and hence be a different though very closely related program. They'll probably run the same flight engine, but it's been clear they won't necessarily share other bits.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on November 16, 2015, 06:43:55 pm
Wasn't Squadron 42 supposed to be a part of Star Citizen?

No, it's been pretty explicit from the start that Squadron 42 will be a single-player prequel campaign that will have some mechanical differences of unknown level from Star Citizen and hence be a different though very closely related program. They'll probably run the same flight engine, but it's been clear they won't necessarily share other bits.

Eh?
"Squadron 42 - A Wing Commander style single player mode, playable OFFLINE if you want"
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cig/star-citizen/description

and later:
Is Star Citizen an MMO?
No! Star Citizen will take the best of all possible worlds, ranging from a permanent, persistent world similar to those found in MMOs to an offline, single player campaign like those found in the Wing Commander series. The game will include the option for private servers, like Freelancer, and will offer plenty of opportunities for players who are interested in modding the content. Unlike many games, none of these aspects is an afterthought: they all combine to form the core of the Star Citizen experience.

Either way, calling it a "mode" clearly indicates that it is the same game.  Same executable, different menu choice. Same way Halo as SP, MP and Horde or whatnot.

Now they've changed it. SQ42 is suddenly it's own game, and being sold on its own in the same way that Call of Duty might sell a SP campaign for 60 USD and a multiplayer game separately for 60 USD. Which would be ridiculous, just as the multi-player only COD for last gen consoles is itself kinda ridiculous.

Just basically cutting up the game to get more money, and likely cutting up the cut off piece to maximize the amount of money that can be taken in from that as well. Either to prompt last minute backers or to shaft wait-and-see players.


And if that's not enough, straight from the horse's mouth:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IehITxsK4Fs&t=1h57m28s

Interestingly the presentation on SQ42 gives no concrete details about the game itself at all nor is there any in-mission footage. Just Mass Effect style walk and talk around the ship.
I've heard that SQ42's upcoming release is anywhere from 20 to 50 to 71 missions.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: IronBeer on November 16, 2015, 09:02:14 pm
...from 20 to 50 to 71 missions.
Yes, because massive numbers of missions are always easy to execute and unfailingly make campaigns better. /s

(http://i.imgur.com/Sb3i05V.gif)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on November 17, 2015, 12:32:12 pm
Yeah, he mentions that here @ 2m20s

https://youtu.be/OXpx2C6rFAc?t=2m20s (https://youtu.be/OXpx2C6rFAc?t=2m20s)

Says roughly 'Squadron 42 is going to be split into a trilogy, Episode 1 has the equivalent of 70 wing commander missions"

Though I honestly don't know what the hell he's saying in here.
He says there's 21 chapters, each a segment of missions, but he seems to consider each "mission" just having a check point. So it would have 21 missions with 3 segments? Who knows.

But they're also talking about ground missions ala Mass Effect which seems a bit odd because wasn't Star Marine on indefinate hiatus? And isn't the engine for that required for these ground missions?

The CitizenCon address also added something new though. It says there will be "sandboxy areas" with "optional side missions".

So, as I understand it at the moment. RSI is making four games. Star Citizen, and Squadron 42 Episodes 1 with two sequels planned,  each with 21 segmented missions, equivalent of "70 WC style missions" including space and ground combat plus sandboxy areas with optional side missions which may or may not factor in the 0 mission count.

All of them "next-gen AAA quality".
Good luck I say
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on November 18, 2015, 10:22:42 am
Lol at "this year".  Yes, haven't managed to make their core gameplay fun, but they're ready to release a 70 mission campaign.  Suuuure.

Even if they do release this year it it's going to be a pile of **** if it's based on AC's combat.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Hades on November 18, 2015, 10:37:20 am
If they've somehow done 70 missions this year then they've either been lying about progress or are lying now, which goes against the whole transparency in development shtick they've been hiding behind
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Lorric on November 18, 2015, 11:01:03 am
Equivalent of 70 WC missions, how is that measured? Presumably the average WC mission X70? If I think average WC style mission, it involves a 3 point patrol killing enemies at each point.

How is this measured with Squadron 42? Do you have a 9 point patrol? Do they count the number of allies and enemies and measure by that, with Squadron 42 battles being about 3X bigger? That would probably be my guess, but I don't know. It might really feel like you have the content of 70 WC missions.

Or maybe they're sneaky and pick a mission like the 1st mission of WC3 to go on, where you do a 3 point patrol and kill a total of 4 enemy fighters. Wing Commander games are different from one another too. Wing Commander Prophecy has much larger battles than what came before it, which usually entailed the player and one wingman going on successively more difficult endurance runs against group after group after group of enemies.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: karajorma on November 18, 2015, 11:10:52 am
Funny thing is, this forum better than probably any other, knows exactly what happens when you promise to deliver a 70 mission campaign. Either everything is very, very samey or it just never gets finished.

It's just simply not possible to come up with 70 good ideas for missions in such a short timespan. Even campaigns which have managed that sort of length and been good did so over the course of years and needed a really good storyline to make it work.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Sushi on November 18, 2015, 11:28:34 am
I don't have a source on hand but last I heard, the "70 mission campaign" had gotten split into 5 episodic releases, with only the first episode due to show up in 2016. That sounds a lot more achievable.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on November 18, 2015, 11:39:26 am
Sushi: he literally said in the video Akalabeth linked that SQ42 had been split into a trilogy, and part 1 was going to be "the equivalent of 70 Wing Commander-style missions".

So basically there's going to be 60 3 point patrol filler missions.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: MatthTheGeek on November 18, 2015, 11:40:41 am
Even campaigns which have managed that sort of length and be good
Is that number of campaign !=0 ? No examples come to mind.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on November 18, 2015, 11:51:18 am
Derelict had, what, 50?  Released BP in total has about 50 as well, but that includes cutscenes.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Col. Fishguts on November 18, 2015, 11:55:59 am
Sushi: he literally said in the video Akalabeth linked that SQ42 had been split into a trilogy, and part 1 was going to be "the equivalent of 70 Wing Commander-style missions".

So basically there's going to be 60 3 point patrol filler missions.

That was recorded/released in April'15, when they probably still believed they could release something this year.

Now it looks like maybe the first episode of SQ42 might be released sometime in 2016, and god knows how much of it has already been re-designed 4 times.
Also, watching CR trundling on about this, I get the impression he is counting a mission which goes something like "space combat -> fps combat -> space combat -> fps combat -> space combat -> landing" as 3 separate WC-style missions.

That might technically be correct, but it will most likely consists of patrol filler missions.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Lorric on November 18, 2015, 12:01:57 pm
If your gameplay is addictive, you can get away with having lots of nothing special missions. Because you just enjoy having a reason to play a game you love. As long as the missions aren't flat out bad, simple stuff like "go here, destroy these enemies" will work and be fun. But of course, going by the opinions of the people here on the gameplay they've experienced so far and those terrible cockpits, that doesn't seem likely.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Sushi on November 18, 2015, 12:10:53 pm
Sushi: he literally said in the video Akalabeth linked that SQ42 had been split into a trilogy, and part 1 was going to be "the equivalent of 70 Wing Commander-style missions".

Eh, that'll teach me to not watch videos (ain't nobody got time for 25 minute videos, gimme text for crying out loud! :))

Fortunately the bit where he talks about SQ42 is near the beginning (2:24 or so).

It also sounded like it's supposed to be about 20 hours, so I think the "equivalent of 70 WC missions" is probably not that useful of a comparison metric. WC missions weren't *that* short, except perhaps if you're ignoring all the travel time and talky bits.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Sushi on November 18, 2015, 12:16:38 pm
As far as gameplay goes, the moment-to-moment fighter combat didn't seem *terrible* to me, just unpolished and somewhat lacking tactical options (I don't think they had energy management yet, for example). Of course, that was a year ago, so who knows what may have changed.

Point is, I think I'd be able to at least enjoy a campaign using Nov 2014 Star Citizen ships & gameplay.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on November 18, 2015, 12:36:53 pm
I don't have a source on hand but last I heard, the "70 mission campaign" had gotten split into 5 episodic releases, with only the first episode due to show up in 2016. That sounds a lot more achievable.

Speaking of sources why didn't CR give more information at Citizencon? All he talked about was motion capture and said the campaign was "immense" and "epic" and 10 hours of Mo-cap.

And on this last point, 10 hours of mocap? Do people remember that  Witcher 3 has 16 hours of mo-caped sex alone?

Here are the details on SQ42 from the citizencon video:
https://youtu.be/IehITxsK4Fs?t=1h26m48s (https://youtu.be/IehITxsK4Fs?t=1h26m48s)
'true next gen AAA game'
'your continued support has pushed the game beyond its original scope'
'Approach has evolved from wing commander style to now include:
Intense tactical ground combat, in space and EVA in amazing immersive detail
Immense sandbox locations, environments to explore and missions that offer multiple paths to completion'


then goes on to say
'an epic story campaign set within SC
over 10 hours of mo-cap with an incredible cast
cutting edge facial animations to ensure believability and immersion
A dynamic conversation and reputation system
you aren't serving alongside bots, they're real people with character and backstroy
define your character through your actions and interactions'



So, how many missions? How long is the game? What's the price?
That description honestly sounds more like Mass Effect than Wing Commander and everything they showed in the demo was basically Mass Effect walking around the Normandy. But that said it's not really clear what the game is at all. It's just a bucket of buzz words like epic, immense, immersion, sandbox, dialogue, reputation, character, AAA, branching or multiple path to completion gameplay, etcetera
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Jeff Vader on November 18, 2015, 02:47:29 pm
(http://www.mememaker.net/static/images/memes/4334740.jpg)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: IronBeer on November 18, 2015, 06:32:51 pm
Funny thing is, this forum better than probably any other, knows exactly what happens when you promise to deliver a 70 mission campaign. Either everything is very, very samey or it just never gets finished.

It's just simply not possible to come up with 70 good ideas for missions in such a short timespan. Even campaigns which have managed that sort of length and be good did so over the course of years and needed a really good storyline to make it work.
Yeah, that's basically what I was insinuating. You said it better, and without a semi-appropriate gif too!
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on November 18, 2015, 06:55:13 pm
I normally hate memes but these gifs you guys are throwing out are great
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Ghostavo on November 18, 2015, 07:52:18 pm
And on this last point, 10 hours of mocap? Do people remember that  Witcher 3 has 16 hours of mo-caped sex alone?

Source on the Witcher 3 statistic? I kinda want to see how they justify that if true.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on November 18, 2015, 08:04:41 pm
And on this last point, 10 hours of mocap? Do people remember that  Witcher 3 has 16 hours of mo-caped sex alone?

Source on the Witcher 3 statistic? I kinda want to see how they justify that if true.

http://www.pcgamer.com/cd-projekt-explains-why-the-witcher-3-has-16-hours-of-sex-scene-mo-cap-data/ (http://www.pcgamer.com/cd-projekt-explains-why-the-witcher-3-has-16-hours-of-sex-scene-mo-cap-data/)

And . ..

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/jan/28/sex-witcher-3-grand-theft-auto-of-fantasy-games (http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/jan/28/sex-witcher-3-grand-theft-auto-of-fantasy-games)

Actually my statement is a bit off. There's 16 hours of data drawn from, not sure how much of that is included in the actual game.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: karajorma on November 18, 2015, 08:26:13 pm
Even campaigns which have managed that sort of length and been good
Is that number of campaign !=0 ? No examples come to mind.

I was thinking specifically of the combination of FS1 and FS2 which is pretty close to that number (around 60 missions+). It's a crude measure but looking at creation and last edit dates for a few missions gives a timespan of at least 6 months just to write all the FS2 missions.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on November 19, 2015, 08:44:53 am
Third year anniversary livestream is today at UTC 19:00

http://www.twitch.tv/starcitizen

There may be something about Alpha 2.0 and when is it about to release.

Open your hearts to Chris yet again. Also wallets.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on November 19, 2015, 12:00:06 pm
I broke my wrists, I won't be able to open my wallet for at least two weeks.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: headdie on November 19, 2015, 12:34:31 pm
between spending £40 on a load of swimming stuff and strongly considering buying SCII:LotV I have no money now for at least 2 weeks  :p
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on November 19, 2015, 01:31:28 pm
Odd. The Livestream is called "Star Citizen playing Star Citizen" and when I go to the stream, it's a guy showing some concept art.
Where's the gameplay?

I guess it's actually anniversary livestream, but again, where's the gameplay?

They just should showed what is the ****tiest version of a ship I could imagine, described as a "white box" then told at the end "It's on sale, go buy it"
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on November 19, 2015, 01:57:08 pm
Gameplay isn't important.  Gotta sell that new jpeg.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on November 19, 2015, 02:02:52 pm
Yeah I'm actually watching the screen, so far what I've sen is this:
1. Guy showing concept art
2. Guy showing a "white box" ship interior of sometihng called Crucible, think polygon planes for cieling and walls, pre-made doors placed here and there. Then Announcing it's on sale
3. Guy standing in a room talking about a system
4. Roberts talking about Squadron 42 by talking about Mark Hammel, showing a 10-second pre-rendered trailer of him getting in a plane. Talking about story, characters. Taking questons on Mark Hamill.

Still haven't seen or heard anything about game play

5. Showing behind the scenes with Mark and more mo-cap sets
6. Mark interview
7. 700 page script
8. So they showed a video about character pipeline, which talks about concept characters, mo-cap, animation but not gameplay.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on November 19, 2015, 02:06:35 pm
They're super excited about doing exactly the same **** Mass Effect 1 did 8 years ago.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on November 19, 2015, 02:38:41 pm
When asked about changing ship loadouts

"I think they're still working on the design document."

One of their most core gameplay features isn't finalized.  How the hell are they making a campaign?

What a bunch of muppets.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Hades on November 19, 2015, 02:51:37 pm
The pinnacle of this livestream so far has been Chris calling Starcitizen/SQ42 a "movie" and then them trying to cut the audio right after that because of it. So far nothing else has happened.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on November 19, 2015, 03:06:09 pm
Yeah if I didn't know this was a game or the occasional references to the player, I would've thought they were making an animated movie honestly like FF spirits within

EDIT - HOLY **** THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT MORE SHIPS! hahhaha
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on November 19, 2015, 03:20:24 pm
And now talking about a HOTAS.

EDIT: oh my god another ship jpeg for sale.

EDIT2: Ok, time for 2.0 and gameplay talk!

Aaaaand they're showing literal Google Image Search jpegs, more concept art, and a bar.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on November 19, 2015, 04:04:52 pm
So Alpha 2.0 goes on public test server today

CHRIS DETRACTORS ON SUICIDE WATCH
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on November 19, 2015, 04:08:40 pm
I was expecting a full 2.0 release, and it goes out to 1000 people today, with a planned public release next week.

EDIT: and then they went ahead and said the full release will be when they're comfortable with it.  So probably not next week.

EDIT2: yay gameplay!

Aaaand it's exactly the same thing we saw at Gamescom and CitCon.  They had 3 hours, and the gameplay was 2 minutes of prerendered video footage.  Why the hell didn't they show a mission (that they claim to have a dozen of) getting completed?  Why wasn't thins stream 3 hours of actual gameplay rather than jpegs and interviews?

Speaking that video, the animations are the worst mocap animations I've ever seen.  The headbobbing is still there and still looking terrible.  The FPS gameplay looked like generic shooter #1694233, complete with brown and grey everywhere.

That was the weirdest livestream I've ever seen.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Sushi on November 19, 2015, 04:17:16 pm
I like that they're doing it for the best bug reporters, it's a nice acknowledgment, reward, and incentive all at once.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on November 19, 2015, 04:42:10 pm
How often do they promote things in-game, like for example environments, which cannot be immediately sold online?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on November 19, 2015, 05:05:52 pm
So Alpha 2.0 goes on public test server today

CHRIS DETRACTORS ON SUICIDE WATCH

HOLY **** DUDE YOU ARE GETTING SCAMMED!!!

I missed the last half of the livestream and checked it out after it ended. Skipped around a bit and what are they talking about I see?

Selling a new ship
Having a contest to design marine armour, which will likewise get sold online
Selling a joystick/keyboard periphreal
Selling another ship

Where's the ****ing game? Seriously.
This livestream is a shopping channel.

Do you know what a proper game development stream looks like?
It looks like this:

Skip around the video.
Notice art development (concepts, models, sourcing)
Game development. (values, spreadsheets, planning)
LIVE gameplay demo at that stage (onspot demonstrations of mission, overworld), which was done every week as the game got better and improved.

That's how you livestream a game under development.

Not streaming for 3 hours talking about new **** going on sale without showing any new gameplay except for some crafted trailer showing all the "best moments".


Seriously dude, if you want to ride the project out whatever but don't put any more money into it that pit.

Total scam job. I will be surprised if you ever get a real, honest to god released game.

What's the current release? Alpha 2.0? You know what Alpha 2.0 is called in the rest of the gaming Industry? Beta. And after Beta, comes the release game. People are celebrating the fact that after 90 million dollars the best it can offer is "more alpha"
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: The E on November 20, 2015, 12:38:05 am
It's not even an Alpha. Alpha means that most major gameplay systems are implemented, and SC is far, far away from that particular milestone.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: AtomicClucker on November 20, 2015, 12:59:31 am
It's a Virtual Ship Selling Simulator after all.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on November 20, 2015, 03:02:05 am
So Alpha 2.0 goes on public test server today

CHRIS DETRACTORS ON SUICIDE WATCH


(http://i.imgur.com/esOL5Zd.jpg)

So we've reached last year's claimed combined Spring/Summer 2015 milestone.  Truly, this invalidates every problem with SC.

Meanwhile the module is crashing every 5 minutes, according to people playing it.  Seems fairly obvious they rushed it to remove critic ammo, but what they released is nearly unplayable.  Not joking about that.  I watched a stream where the 'game' crashed so much that the guy stopped trying and quit before he even managed to get into his ship's cockpit.

Which, now that I think about it, explains why CIG hasn't shown any actual gameplay of 2.0.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: TrashMan on November 20, 2015, 03:25:36 am
Do you know what a proper game development stream looks like?
It looks like this:

Tim "3.4 million dollar man" Schafer
Tim "The Scam Man" Schafer
Tim "Scokpuppet" Schanfer

Of all the people...you use him as an example?

Quote
But Tim's most legendary failure has to be Broken Age.
After asking for 400k in KickStarter money and collecting a record sum of 3.35 million, with an additional 100k donated off KickStarter, Tim Schafer took that money and created.......... Nothing.

The project fell through almost completely. Despite receiving roughly 9 times the money he was asking for, Schafer inflated his plans for the game and, as a result, was unable to complete even half of one half of it, announcing that the game will be split into 2 chapters but he only has the money to complete half of the first. This might have something to do with him blowing a chunk of the budget on hiring voice actors that include some of the most well known (and most expensive) in the industry, the creator of Adventure Time, the returning Jack Black and ****ing Elijah Wood.

He went on to beg his fans for more money, tell them he would not be asking for money from a publisher because he doesn't like them and because that would be "against the spirit of KickStarter" (unlike outright stealing the money you were given and then begging for more), and finally put what little of the game was already finished on early access to gather more funds, telling the people who donated money and expected a full game: "Just don't look".

Over a year and a half later Schafer finally released the second part which made everyone wonder what took him so ****ing long, considering the plot (of both games) makes no sense and everything is solved with bombs and deus ex machina, while the puzzles feel like "Babies first adventure game". But what made it obvious that the entire thing was a con is that he didn't change anything. The entire game is made out of preexisting assets, no new characters or locations are added and the two heroes who live in separate worlds just change places and solve almost the exact same **** as the first half but with the locations reversed. Writing the story was literally the only thing Schafer had to do to complete part 2, and it still took him more than 18 months, cost him an extra 50k and ended up being **** that feels like it was written on the fly.

All of his is made even more hilarious by the fact Tim responded to the success of his fundraiser by posting numerous pictures of himself eating, trowing around, burning, blowing his nose and wiping his ass with the money.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Admiral MS on November 20, 2015, 03:50:54 am
Wow... I really wonder if I should finally try to get a refund. Probably too much effort for money I considered lost the moment I pledged it.

And the worst part is that no alpha module they actually released is playable on my computer cause it seems a lot more than the minimum hardware requirements is necessary to run it :/
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Mikes on November 20, 2015, 07:43:58 am
Wow... I really wonder if I should finally try to get a refund. Probably too much effort for money I considered lost the moment I pledged it.

And the worst part is that no alpha module they actually released is playable on my computer cause it seems a lot more than the minimum hardware requirements is necessary to run it :/

Mh ... my work computer with a GTX960 with an old i5 runs it quite decently already.

Time to upgrade? ;-)

So Alpha 2.0 goes on public test server today

CHRIS DETRACTORS ON SUICIDE WATCH


(http://i.imgur.com/esOL5Zd.jpg)

So we've reached last year's claimed combined Spring/Summer 2015 milestone.  Truly, this invalidates every problem with SC.

Meanwhile the module is crashing every 5 minutes, according to people playing it.  Seems fairly obvious they rushed it to remove critic ammo, but what they released is nearly unplayable.  Not joking about that.  I watched a stream where the 'game' crashed so much that the guy stopped trying and quit before he even managed to get into his ship's cockpit.

Which, now that I think about it, explains why CIG hasn't shown any actual gameplay of 2.0.

Now don't take me wrong ... I'm quite sceptic about the project in it's entirety myself.

However, we are not getting "AC 2.0", but rather what they call the Persistent Universe Alpha or Baby PU nowadays.
How good or polished that is going to be is of course another story. But anyways, that nitpick on your post appears valid.

What is still Mia is Squadron 42. But when/if they release the Baby PU this year then that part would actually match the roadmap.

/shrugs.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on November 20, 2015, 08:52:03 am
It's not a persistent universe though, is it?  There's nothing persistent about it.  There's nothing that makes the persistent universe different from a bigger map.  There's no economy, there's no jobs, there's no trading, no significant customization of anything, and there's no meaningful player interaction beyond what was in AC already.  It's a bigger map for Arena Commander, and they finally managed to wrestle CryEngine into a "workable" FPS.

The Baby PU, they claimed, was meant to basically be one system from what would be in the final persistent universe, with all the necessary gameplay systems in place.  None of them are in ATM.  Some of them (like ship customization) don't even have a finalized design document.

It's a combination of Star Marine and Multi-Crew.  What they said they'd have Summer 2015.  Apart from the bigger map, it isn't significantly different from what Arena Commander already was.  You could already land your ship, get out, and shoot a pistol at things.  Well, there's zero-G EVA now.  That part is new.  So's multi-crew, but I've yet to see a streamer play the "game" without it crashing before the Constellation could turn on, so...

Sure, they released 2.0, but it's nearly unplayable.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on November 20, 2015, 10:59:48 am
"Bigger map" is a big deal. Converting Cryengine into 64-bit coordinates took a lot of effort and is crucial for the game to work as advertised. In addition to that, there is a rudimentary missions system, FPS mechanics and quantum travel between different places in the system. What is released cannot be considered "Persistent universe Alpha" yet, but it does surely go beyond just "Arena Commander 2.0 multicrew ships" goal.

So right now we are located somewhere between their summer goal and end of 2015 goal. And indeed, that is also current calendar time. So technically they are not late yet when it comes to persistent universe development. In reality, they probably are, but not by much.

Squadron 42 is another matter, it is already late and I do not believe first episode it will be out anytime soon. The game systems are just too intertwined to be able to release Squadron 42 while persistent universe is still largely unfinished. Claiming that they could release it before PU was a mistake, IMHO.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: MatthTheGeek on November 20, 2015, 11:29:29 am
So right now we are located somewhere between their summer goal and end of 2015 goal.
When in that timeline were they supposed to implement game mechanics? Because they still haven't even roughly pinned that down yet.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on November 20, 2015, 11:34:37 am
Game mechanics?  What?

How are game mechanics supposed to sell more jpegs?


Quote from the SA thread

Quote from: XK
I saw someone get in a turret and operate it. The ships seem to have problems with more than one person on them at a time. I saw a guy phase out of his ship when someone else flew away with it. Then it hung there over the pad, he jet packed up into the bay, and when he tried to enter a crew door the center of the screen pinched like it was doing the warp drive, then the ship ejected itself from around him and appeared over the opposite side of the pad.

Someone had a description of this release last night that completely nailed it. It's an object viewer. You can "fly" around, there's hints of neat things hidden about, the individual assets look good, but it's almost all "look but don't touch". You could have nearly the same experience zooming around in a model viewer.

Going by videos, seems accurate.  Every attempts to actually play ends with a crash in very short order.  Like, within a couple of minutes (which is of course nowhere near long enough to finish a fight with AC's glacial pace).


EDIT: So Reddit notices issues:

Quote
So, in my brief unstable time in the PTU, the biggest thing I've noticed so far is that the weird shaking you used to get from flying far out in Arena Commander is back now. It seems to be fine as long as you're near a point-of-interest, but if you go to cruise and travel off the beaten path just a bit, things go all to hell and you're disconnected shortly afterwards. Does anyone have an idea as to why this is? I thought the 64-bit conversion and camera-relative rendering was supposed to fix this. It does make me a little worried for exploration and such, since I can't even really fly around Port Olisar without getting this issue.
Current hypothesis is that they didn't change to 64-bit maps, they're just loading 32-bit maps at each point of interest.

Also apparently trying to repair or refuel a multicrew ship crashes the whole server.

EDIT2:
(http://www.ultraimg.com/images/yw7LlY.gif)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on November 20, 2015, 11:37:37 am
Do you know what a proper game development stream looks like?
It looks like this:

Tim "3.4 million dollar man" Schafer
Tim "The Scam Man" Schafer
Tim "Scokpuppet" Schanfer

Of all the people...you use him as an example?

I use it as an example of a proper game development video. The best company I've kickstarted is Harebrained Schemes but they didn't have team streams like this.

Also your comment tells me that you don't really know what you're talking about because despite being a Double Fine production the game's director was Brad Muir. Tim Schafer was barely present, at least publicly. The game itself is also fairly successful, has a few mixed reviews but also full marks from reviewers like Tom Chick.

The one black mark I count against the production is that they went into early access before release and I voiced my disapproval openly when they did.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: AtomicClucker on November 20, 2015, 01:52:51 pm
Well, screw TIm Schaefer and Double Fine. Harebrained, Obsidian and other companies have actually made proper products and such.

And once again, screw Tim Schaefer. That guy rides politics more than he does actually making games - and while I may take a flail to bad examples, Tim Schaefer is a good example of all that's wrong and evil about Kickstarter.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on November 20, 2015, 02:12:58 pm
Sounds like someone kickstarter Double Fine Adventure.
I only KSed Massive Chalice so have less of a problem with DFP.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on November 21, 2015, 01:15:38 am
New patch is out, fixing many crashes and increasing player count to 15000. I got an invite too, but I dont have time to test it today. Will post my thoughts when I do.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Deathsnake on November 21, 2015, 04:21:27 pm
Vaporware, ey? :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oC17567Zg8Y&feature=youtu.be&t=2m
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on November 21, 2015, 04:56:59 pm
I don't think anyone called it vaporware.  No one here questions Croberts' intent to deliver the game, just his ability to.  I've watched a lot of footage of 2.0, and I'm no closer to believing he can do it.  The game is plagued by significant gameplay issues that have gone unaddressed since AC first released (and we've gone over them in this thread a lot, so I'm not going to go over them again), and there are still massive challenges, both technical and content-related, still ahead.

And the livestream confirmed that they still haven't pinned down their most essential gameplay systems (like ship customization).  The dev team itself is extremely talented, but the upper management people who aren't Erin are incompetent.

I mean, people are acting like 2.0 is proof that the naysayers are wrong, but hell, I expected 2.0 at CitCon.  CIG failed to meet even my expectations.  And it's still a year late.

Like I've said repeatedly, I expect CIG will successfully deliver SQ42.  Or at least the first part of it.  I doubt it'll be very good, but I think it'll get released.  Star Citizen as promised?  No. 

Look at E:D for an example of a well-run project.  It may not have SC's funding, but it clearly doesn't need it. Without having 95M USD, they've managed to deliver an actual game, and now they're adding content to it.  They have a far more competently run project and a far clearer (and more achievable) idea of the game they're making.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on November 23, 2015, 01:50:09 pm
New patch is out, fixing many crashes and increasing player count to 15000. I got an invite too, but I dont have time to test it today. Will post my thoughts when I do.

15,000 Invited
1,035,528 people still waiting
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Sushi on November 23, 2015, 01:53:14 pm
Eh, no rush. SC is the type of game I'd rather wait until it's a bit more polished and de-bugged to play.

Which I suspect may be quite a long while. Plenty of other stuff to play in the meantime, though!
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: headdie on November 23, 2015, 02:10:51 pm
Yer SC is a game I will be waiting for the game to be in a coherent state before even thinking about picking up
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Hades on December 03, 2015, 03:33:51 am
So far my experience with the "Baby PU" has been as follows:

First time trying to install it, the launcher crashes

Second time trying to install it, something happens, my USB ports get disabled, and I have to restart my PC.

Third time trying to install it worked, however launching the game caused an immediate CTD

Second time trying to launch the game worked, but I crashed in the loading screen when trying to enter the PU

Second time trying to load the PU, it crashed again

Said **** it, I'll go mess around with my ugly **** Aurora so I launch the hangar module, get in just fine

Get in my ship, this takes around 6 seconds. Open my bunk door, about two, get in my bunk takes around 10 seconds. Something bugs out so I can't get out of my bunk, so I escape out and press "Exit to desktop"

The game crashes when Exit to Desktop is pressed.


don't touch the baby poo
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Mikes on December 04, 2015, 06:39:27 am
So far my experience with the "Baby PU" has been as follows:

First time trying to install it, the launcher crashes

Second time trying to install it, something happens, my USB ports get disabled, and I have to restart my PC.

Third time trying to install it worked, however launching the game caused an immediate CTD

Second time trying to launch the game worked, but I crashed in the loading screen when trying to enter the PU

Second time trying to load the PU, it crashed again

Said **** it, I'll go mess around with my ugly **** Aurora so I launch the hangar module, get in just fine

Get in my ship, this takes around 6 seconds. Open my bunk door, about two, get in my bunk takes around 10 seconds. Something bugs out so I can't get out of my bunk, so I escape out and press "Exit to desktop"

The game crashes when Exit to Desktop is pressed.


don't touch the baby poo

There's two sides to the coin, or 2 groups of people actually ...

... one who will say that the game will never get made and everything is lost and if anything is released at all it will be a buggy unplayable mess.

... and the other who says that people just can't handle the ups and downs of open game development and SC will be the "bestest game released so far for PC gaming ever"-


/shrugs. We'll see who's right, eventually, I guess. Possibly the truth will lay somewhere inbetween. ;-)


Also, we'll see how the Baby PU does when it's officially released as uh Alpha, and not as PTU um,... is that pre Alpha then? lol.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Hades on December 04, 2015, 09:53:16 am
That's great but it has nothing to do with my excellent rendition of the popular Shakespear play, titled Attempting to Star Citizen
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on December 06, 2015, 06:35:24 am
OK, it's been a rough road to here, but I think this video sums up just why we should all be so excited about Star Citizen:


When I watched this video, I didn't just see a game set to revolutionise the industry -- nay, the medium. I saw the pinnacle of our accomplishment as a species, a vision of humanity everlasting. I was left a child, staring into the embers of dying stars; and I am ready to hurl my wallet into the void of space with no fear
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: karajorma on December 06, 2015, 06:58:52 am
I'll send you the bill for my overloaded sarcasm detector tomorrow.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Lorric on December 06, 2015, 08:11:07 am
1:18 - So the Earth Realm are hosting the Star Citizen timeline's Mortal Kombat. Man, the Shokan are really scraping the bottom of the barrel with this guy. They've really let things slide.

Some of those bugs are hilarious.

Does anyone know if the lawsuit on The Escapist went ahead? I can't find anything, but I don't know if for such a thing there wouldn't be any talk of it.

Meanwhile the money continues to just roll in. Recently I looked and they had about $96.5M and over 1M star citizens. Now they have $99.7M. So very soon they will hit $100M. Surely if the money continues to flow at that speed they won't go bust. But how long can it continue? Surely it can't continue indefinitely.

I found a stats thing they have. It says they took in $681,399 on November 29th alone, and $5,374,050 in November. That was more than any of the other listed 6 months and October was more than the other 5 months. The rate they're taking in money is soaring rather than showing any signs of slowing down. Just this week they've taken in $3,027,358, so December is probably going to shatter November for the amount they've taken in at this rate.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Hades on December 06, 2015, 05:21:08 pm
Even though my last attempt at immersing myself in the fidelity and vision of Chris Roberts ended in me furiously masturbating to a Monopoly board out of frustrated failure, I figured I'd not given Star Citizen the fair 37 tries it deserved when the most recent patch hit.

First attempt at updating the game resulted in my USB ports being disabled again, which I'm assuming is righteous punishment for ever doubting the project. Second attempt went along fine, though I realized that Star Citizen basically redownloaded itself for the update instead of using a patch. I'm guessing it's some kind of new and improved way of doing it, because surely if small patches were the way to go they've have been doing them a year or two ago?

Got ingame, seriously hyped to have the time of my life. First attempt had me load for 5 minutes and then get shot back to the main menu with a message that said "Error - kicked from the server". This message would not go away when clicking the "ok" button, probably designed by the same people working on crosshairs. So I try loading into again, it works, however the damned message is still there. Before I can experience the immersion of head-bobbing, I notice that not only is the motion blur terrible, windowed mode simply does not work. The cursor will move out of the window leaving you unable to actually turn. I quit out, to make a config to disable motion blur. I get back in game, set it to fullscreen, and proceed to get error messages saying I've either been kicked from the server or have been disconnected for the next 6-odd attempts, none of the ok button presses on any of these messages actually makes them go away.

BDSSE

e:  Gotta go find my Monopoly board again

edit2:
Does anyone know if the lawsuit on The Escapist went ahead? I can't find anything, but I don't know if for such a thing there wouldn't be any talk of it.
No that was just a part of Robert's coke-fueled ranting that went nowhere, sort of like when he talks about the game itself
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Mikes on December 07, 2015, 09:15:05 am
No that was just a part of Robert's coke-fueled ranting that went nowhere, sort of like when he talks about the game itself

Yes... use your aggressive feelings boy, let the hate flow through you, good ...
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 07, 2015, 02:05:26 pm
Does anyone know if the lawsuit on The Escapist went ahead? I can't find anything, but I don't know if for such a thing there wouldn't be any talk of it.
  Very unlikely, because under US libel laws, they'd almost certainly lose.  CIG are as full of **** as Derek Smart.

Quote
Meanwhile the money continues to just roll in. Recently I looked and they had about $96.5M and over 1M star citizens. Now they have $99.7M. So very soon they will hit $100M. Surely if the money continues to flow at that speed they won't go bust. But how long can it continue? Surely it can't continue indefinitely.
They always get a surge of money around October and November because of CitCon and the anniversary sale.  The reason it's such a huge difference is because June, July, August, and September were record lows.  They actually made less money this November than they did last November.  Funding is definitely slowing down. Goons and DS calculated that their operating costs are probably around $2M per month (take that with a grain of salt), which would explain the recent downsizing in Austin and rush to get something out for the November sale.  If the November sale had been a bust, they'd have been in serious trouble.  As it is, October and November probably got them enough to last for another few months until the next jpeg sale.

I think they're very quickly starting to reach market saturation.  Hence the ponzi scheme referral program, unlimited sale of ships like the Idris (which was offered only in small batches before), and the fact that they didn't let people use store credit when they sold their "limited" Mary Sue ship (the Constellation Phoenix) again.  Hell, when SQ42 bundles were on sale (again, no store credit) they said only 5000 (I think) were available, but they kept refilling the number when it ran low.

/shrugs. We'll see who's right, eventually, I guess. Possibly the truth will lay somewhere inbetween. ;-)
Golden Mean Fallacy. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_to_moderation)

And it is in alpha.  Even CIG call it an alpha.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Dragon on December 07, 2015, 02:13:19 pm
Meanwhile the money continues to just roll in. Recently I looked and they had about $96.5M and over 1M star citizens. Now they have $99.7M. So very soon they will hit $100M. Surely if the money continues to flow at that speed they won't go bust. But how long can it continue? Surely it can't continue indefinitely.

I found a stats thing they have. It says they took in $681,399 on November 29th alone, and $5,374,050 in November. That was more than any of the other listed 6 months and October was more than the other 5 months. The rate they're taking in money is soaring rather than showing any signs of slowing down. Just this week they've taken in $3,027,358, so December is probably going to shatter November for the amount they've taken in at this rate.
At the rate this is going, they'll soon be building those ships in 1:1 scale and launching them into space. With that kind of money, why make it a computer game? :) Buy a few SLS launches and set up a fully functional deep space colony for one million people to live in.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Mikes on December 07, 2015, 05:43:22 pm
Meanwhile the money continues to just roll in. Recently I looked and they had about $96.5M and over 1M star citizens. Now they have $99.7M. So very soon they will hit $100M. Surely if the money continues to flow at that speed they won't go bust. But how long can it continue? Surely it can't continue indefinitely.

I found a stats thing they have. It says they took in $681,399 on November 29th alone, and $5,374,050 in November. That was more than any of the other listed 6 months and October was more than the other 5 months. The rate they're taking in money is soaring rather than showing any signs of slowing down. Just this week they've taken in $3,027,358, so December is probably going to shatter November for the amount they've taken in at this rate.
At the rate this is going, they'll soon be building those ships in 1:1 scale and launching them into space. With that kind of money, why make it a computer game? :) Buy a few SLS launches and set up a fully functional deep space colony for one million people to live in.

:g: thanks for the image of someone launching a bunch of Star Citizen model space ships with a real life rocket. Actually, that would be as hilarious as it would be doable:P

Also: https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/292247/rsi-constellation-takes-flight-in-microgravity LOL
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Dragon on December 08, 2015, 04:37:58 pm
Well, 60 million $ will buy you a full-sized Falcon from Space X. :) Be that one could at least loft a real-scale Aurora into LEO. Are the masses of the ships available somewhere?

Joking aside, I won't be surprised in the slightest if some Star Citizen merchandise finds its way aboard the ISS. I don't know if they'd be able to get it cleared for that, but a reasonably sized model with a nitrogen bottle inside an a number of cold gas thrusters could be stuck inside airlock and flown around a bit outside (it's about as complex a problem as making an RC aircraft). A ridiculous proposition, but not entirely implausible. Seems like exactly the kind of thing you do when you get too much money too quickly. :)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Scotty on December 09, 2015, 12:05:12 pm
The idea that CIG could have bought a real, honest to God ****ing spaceship and had $30 million left over, but can't get their fake, virtual spaceships to work is hilarious.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: That Man on December 10, 2015, 03:08:55 am
Ugh. I just listened to that godawful Gary Oldman speech from that trailer. It reminded me of Indrick Boreale's speech from Dawn of War: Soulstorm (link for reference) (https://youtu.be/LJMLfACod48).

If a tree falls in a forest and it hits a mime, are all of the mime's blood vessels and internal organs properly simulated to create truly immersive injuries?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 11, 2015, 02:19:07 am
Funding is definitely slowing down. Goons and DS calculated that their operating costs are probably around $2M per month (take that with a grain of salt)

They have $100 million, so if they operating costs are $2 million per month, by naive calculation they have enough money to go for 50 months. Star Citizen is in development for only three years currently, so that is a year of cash reserve remaining.  Not to mention that operating costs at the beginning of development were certainly lower than now, thus my calculation probably underestimates their true cash reserves..
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 11, 2015, 07:11:32 am
Funding is definitely slowing down. Goons and DS calculated that their operating costs are probably around $2M per month (take that with a grain of salt)

They have $100 million, so if they operating costs are $2 million per month, by naive calculation they have enough money to go for 50 months. Star Citizen is in development for only three years currently, so that is a year of cash reserve remaining.  Not to mention that operating costs at the beginning of development were certainly lower than now, thus my calculation probably underestimates their true cash reserves..
That $2M is in salaries and rent.  It does not cover things like building three mocap studios and hiring two others (including the goddamn Imaginarium).  It doesn't cover the costs of a new office in Santa Monica.  It doesn't cover needing to pay for celebrity voice actors.  It doesn't cover taking a vacation to Monaco during the Grand Prix, and it doesn't cover purchases like paying $2000 for a desk (https://www.restorationhardware.com/catalog/product/product.jsp?productId=prod280189) (and that's by no means the only piece of insanely overpriced furniture they bought off that site).  It is their basic month-to-month expenses.

Game started development in Dec. 2011, btw.  Chris said they'd already been working for a year when he explained why a 2014 release date was feasible (lol).
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Unknown Target on December 11, 2015, 10:54:29 am
Also, FYI, they have *raised* $100 million. That doesn't mean they have that amount right now. In fact, they almost certainly don't, since that sum was raised over a couple years, which means they were burning it at the same time they were bringing it in...which is why it would be interesting to see how much they actually have on hand.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 11, 2015, 12:54:03 pm
Funding is definitely slowing down. Goons and DS calculated that their operating costs are probably around $2M per month (take that with a grain of salt)

They have $100 million, so if they operating costs are $2 million per month, by naive calculation they have enough money to go for 50 months. Star Citizen is in development for only three years currently, so that is a year of cash reserve remaining.  Not to mention that operating costs at the beginning of development were certainly lower than now, thus my calculation probably underestimates their true cash reserves..
That $2M is in salaries and rent.  It does not cover things like building three mocap studios and hiring two others (including the goddamn Imaginarium).  It doesn't cover the costs of a new office in Santa Monica.  It doesn't cover needing to pay for celebrity voice actors.  It doesn't cover taking a vacation to Monaco during the Grand Prix, and it doesn't cover purchases like paying $2000 for a desk (https://www.restorationhardware.com/catalog/product/product.jsp?productId=prod280189) (and that's by no means the only piece of insanely overpriced furniture they bought off that site).  It is their basic month-to-month expenses.

Game started development in Dec. 2011, btw.  Chris said they'd already been working for a year when he explained why a 2014 release date was feasible (lol).

They have worked on the game since 2011 but that was more of a pre-production phase, which does not cost much. It wasnt until late 2013 (two years ago) that the number of developers increased considerably up to current levels. And they also have income from subscribers, which supposedly goes to cover marketing and community costs (probably that table, too) and is not counted in the crowdfunded sum.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 11, 2015, 12:56:06 pm
Also, FYI, they have *raised* $100 million. That doesn't mean they have that amount right now.

Of course, they certainly do not have $100 million because certain sum was spent already. We are trying to estimate how much.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 11, 2015, 01:20:58 pm
They have worked on the game since 2011 but that was more of a pre-production phase, which does not cost much. It wasnt until late 2013 (two years ago) that the number of developers increased considerably up to current levels. And they also have income from subscribers, which supposedly goes to cover marketing and community costs (probably that table, too) and is not counted in the crowdfunded sum.
I always enjoy it when citizens constantly move up the 'real' date that SC started development because the actual one doesn't match their internal narrative.  This time next year, development won't have 'really' started until Fall 2014.

I really don't see why you people are always so eager to change that date.  If development only really started in Fall 2013, then that means that CIG spent one whole year spending crowdfunded money on **** that doesn't matter, and you think this makes them look better?

And if you really think they're separating subscriber and pledge money, I have some oceanfront property in Arizona to sell you.  CIG have shown on repeated occasions that they'll take any opportunity they see to milk their backers for more cash.  I'm not even convinced their pledge counter is trustworthy.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 11, 2015, 04:18:10 pm
I am not moving dates or commenting on when development started or didnt start. You are putting words in my mouth and twisting them there.

What I said is that it takes time to ramp up production on a game as huge as SC. You seem to think that CIG finished their initial crowdfunding campaign and immediately should have hired 200 devs with $2 million in operating costs. Or if they didnt, then they are slacking. Obviously, thats not how game development works at all.

In other news, 2.0 could be released to live today

https://i.imgur.com/Cb321bv.jpg

Yet again, Chris is about to prove all his detractors wrong! or is he
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Mikes on December 11, 2015, 09:11:41 pm
I am not moving dates or commenting on when development started or didnt start. You are putting words in my mouth and twisting them there.

What I said is that it takes time to ramp up production on a game as huge as SC. You seem to think that CIG finished their initial crowdfunding campaign and immediately should have hired 200 devs with $2 million in operating costs. Or if they didnt, then they are slacking. Obviously, thats not how game development works at all.

In other news, 2.0 could be released to live today

https://i.imgur.com/Cb321bv.jpg

Yet again, Chris is about to prove all his detractors wrong! or is he

It's out actually ... ;)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on December 11, 2015, 09:15:40 pm
i bet you 500 space dollars that it's still a buggy heap of ****

cig have hit on a winning strategy here
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 11, 2015, 09:38:00 pm
I am not moving dates or commenting on when development started or didnt start. You are putting words in my mouth and twisting them there.

What I said is that it takes time to ramp up production on a game as huge as SC. You seem to think that CIG finished their initial crowdfunding campaign and immediately should have hired 200 devs with $2 million in operating costs. Or if they didnt, then they are slacking. Obviously, thats not how game development works at all.
Because it doesn't matter.  I'm not trying to figure out how much money they have left because, even with current $2M routine operating costs, I don't know how much all their other crap cost.  I don't know how many 800$ tables they bought for their studios (except that it was at least 6), I don't know how much they paid their celebrities, and I don't know how much their new office and three mocap studios cost.  It's a fruitless exercise.

Yet again, Chris is about to prove all his detractors wrong! or is he
I thought they released 2.0 three weeks ago? 

But sure, he's definitely proving me wrong by releasing 2.0 now when I actually thought he'd release it at CitCon.  It's very amusing that citizens treat every release like a major victory over the detractors even though those releases are years late. 

Shame his $100M can't make ships not fly like ****.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Rhys on December 12, 2015, 01:14:03 am
There's enough salt in this thread to cool a fission reactor.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 12, 2015, 01:57:09 am
But sure, he's definitely proving me wrong by releasing 2.0 now when I actually thought he'd release it at CitCon.  It's very amusing that citizens treat every release like a major victory over the detractors even though those releases are years late. 

CitCon release was only a test server release, still full of crashes and blocking bugs. This time 2.0 is released onto live server, with most serious bugs fixed.

Oh no, a very ambitious game is a bit late, stop the presses! :D Once the game is finished and fullfils even half of what they promised, nobody will give a damn that it was a few years late.

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/15106-Star-Citizen-Alpha-20-Available

Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: FrikgFeek on December 12, 2015, 02:03:14 am
Even if the game never crashed it would still be unplayable because the core flight mechanics are just bad. Luckily, it crashes very often to save you from having to actually play it.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 12, 2015, 03:14:48 am
But sure, he's definitely proving me wrong by releasing 2.0 now when I actually thought he'd release it at CitCon.  It's very amusing that citizens treat every release like a major victory over the detractors even though those releases are years late. 

CitCon release was only a test server release, still full of crashes and blocking bugs. This time 2.0 is released onto live server, with most serious bugs fixed.
That wasn't at CitCon.  They released nothing at CitCon.  They actually managed to disappoint even me.

And now they're rereleasing something they released three weeks ago and are getting praised for it.  Mkay.  Whatever.

Quote
Oh no, a very ambitious game is a bit late, stop the presses! :D Once the game is finished and fullfils even half of what they promised, nobody will give a damn that it was a few years late.
Assuming it ever gets finished.  So far, they're taking the Duke Nukem Forever approach to development.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: newman on December 12, 2015, 04:14:33 am
Ambition isn't praiseworthy by default, not if it's not accompanied by good sense and ability. As a matter of game development history, games who tried to do too much and mix too many genres at once usually failed, miserably, in the playability department.

Then Chris Roberts comes along, the maker of previous games which, while somewhat fun, were better known for their story and custscenes than they were for good gameplay (as things like the X-Wing series actually had much better gameplay when it came to flying and doing missions than any of the WC ones). He strikes a space-sim deprived market at the right time, says all the right things, and has the most successful crowdfunding campaign ever.

Years later, he still doesn't have enough money, is selling virtual spaceships for thousands of dollars to keep it afloat, at the same time spending cash on celebrities and hiring linguists to develop new alien languages for SC; at the same time, they never released anything actually playable - Arena Commander's flight model is atrocious and turns your HOTAS into a very expensive, glorified mouse, and from what I've seen on the FPS module, the less said the better. There's writing on the wall here, and it's not saying "this will be amazing".

Ambition is very nice and necessary, yes, but so is setting rational, realistic goals and knowing how to reach them.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Mikes on December 12, 2015, 04:39:30 am
Ambition isn't praiseworthy by default, not if it's not accompanied by good sense and ability. As a matter of game development history, games who tried to do too much and mix too many genres at once usually failed, miserably, in the playability department.

Then Chris Roberts comes along, the maker of previous games which, while somewhat fun, were better known for their story and custscenes than they were for good gameplay (as things like the X-Wing series actually had much better gameplay when it came to flying and doing missions than any of the WC ones). He strikes a space-sim deprived market at the right time, says all the right things, and has the most successful crowdfunding campaign ever.

Years later, he still doesn't have enough money, is selling virtual spaceships for thousands of dollars to keep it afloat, at the same time spending cash on celebrities and hiring linguists to develop new alien languages for SC; at the same time, they never released anything actually playable - Arena Commander's flight model is atrocious and turns your HOTAS into a very expensive, glorified mouse, and from what I've seen on the FPS module, the less said the better. There's writing on the wall here, and it's not saying "this will be amazing".

Ambition is very nice and necessary, yes, but so is setting rational, realistic goals and knowing how to reach them.

Mh ... I'd say there is quite a lot of exaggeration on both sides of the argument (i.e. bestest game ever vs. totally unplayable) and your post is a quite good example.

Turn your HOTAS in a mouse? LOL ;) Lay of the vitriol for a while please :P


My take? So yes it may be buggy and the flight model needs work, but on the other hand I did have seriously awesome expieriences in it already, even back in AC, pushing the flight model to see what you can actually do, maneuvering around those large structures weaving in and out of the nooks and crannys and circling those large spines with my ships nose pointed directly towards it - you couldn't do any of that with the traditional "planes in space" flight model of old SpaceSims. Also Vanduul Swarm, while silly at times, was fracking intense at other times.

So... less exaggeration please. It's reached a point where it's just become silly.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Ghostavo on December 12, 2015, 07:56:46 am
Oh no, a very ambitious game is a bit late, stop the presses! :D Once the game is finished and fullfils even half of what they promised, nobody will give a damn that it was a few years late.

I'm not even sure at this point if half the stuff he promised is possible even with 10x their current budget. He has actually managed to out-molyneux Peter freaking Molyneux!
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 12, 2015, 08:18:07 am
I dont see what is so bad about SC flight model at all. It is certainly playable and enjoyable. Ship wobbling of the past is basically eliminated. That was the only serious issue I had with it. Now it is a standard 6DOF newtonian flight model. If you dont like it, then the issue may have less to do with flight model itself and more to do with you not liking 6DOF realistic newtonian flight models as a whole. Which is your problem, not the game. IMHO the flight model, even in its unfinished state, is already better and more fun to play than say Elite Dangerous one.

I cannot comment on joystick sensitivity curve issues because I play with mouse, tough.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Kszyhu on December 12, 2015, 09:41:17 am
Now it is a standard 6DOF newtonian flight model. If you dont like it, then the issue may have less to do with flight model itself and more to do with you not liking 6DOF realistic newtonian flight models as a whole.

That's the matter of opinion. I absolutely loved newtonian flight model from second I-War, and I couldn't stand more than 10 minutes of flight in AC 1.3. I didn't play SC in 2.0, so I can't comment what changed, and I can agree that E:D's flight model is average at best in the main game,  but really enjoyable in CQC.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 12, 2015, 09:45:02 am
I dont see what is so bad about SC flight model at all. It is certainly playable and enjoyable. Ship wobbling of the past is basically eliminated. That was the only serious issue I had with it. Now it is a standard 6DOF newtonian flight model. If you dont like it, then the issue may have less to do with flight model itself and more to do with you not liking 6DOF realistic newtonian flight models as a whole. Which is your problem, not the game. IMHO the flight model, even in its unfinished state, is already better and more fun to play than say Elite Dangerous one.
(http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/youre_serious_futurama.gif)


No, it's not that I don't like 6DOF combat.  I find E:D's flight and combat mechanics so much better than SC's it isn't even funny.  Like pretty much every other aspect of development, E:D has its **** together, while SC concentrates on flash over substance to sell more jpegs. 

I don't like SC's flight model because it's ****.  Thrusters are insanely powerful and ships have no mass, so they tumble around the sky like they're toys.  At least E:D ships feel like the big lumbering lumps of metal than they are.

Seriously, look at this ****:

(http://i.giphy.com/tUilVT3gQDqyk.gif)

They feel like toys.  There's absolutely no sense of mass or inertia.  They may as well be balloons.  Ships in FSO feel weightier than this.

And you know what?  This isn't something they can fix easily.  Their flight models are ****ed because they design a ship before they touch the flight model, so you've got a ship designed 100% for form over function, and then you're trying to make it actually function.  They need a ship to turn better?  Their only option is to make the maneuvering thrusters more powerful (also affects lateral speed and acceleration). Which is how you end up with maneuvering thrusters that are nearly as strong as the main ones.  It's CR's stupid obsession with ~realism~ ruining the game.

I also find it very funny that g-forces and G-LOC are only a problem if you're sitting in the pilot seat.  If you're not in the pilot seat, the ship can be spinning at 3000RPM and you won't be able to tell unless you look outside.

Also, the FPS is a generic CoD clone but with really terrible animations.  How they manage to make animations this bad despite building 3 mocap studios and hiring two others in incomprehensible.



unrelated, from way back in 2012:

Quote from: http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2012-12-13-star-citizen-well-compete-with-any-aaa-game-out-there
"I'm confident now that we'll be able to compete with any AAA game out there,” he says. “I can't do what I did with Freelancer, or what id did with Rage, and take five years to release it. At that point, the moment in time will be gone. But in two years, it will be pretty great.”

lol

Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 12, 2015, 10:24:42 am
No, it's not that I don't like 6DOF combat.  I find E:D's flight and combat mechanics so much better than SC's it isn't even funny.  Like pretty much every other aspect of development, E:D has its **** together, while SC concentrates on flash over substance to sell more jpegs. 

I don't like SC's flight model because it's ****.  Thrusters are insanely powerful and ships have no mass, so they tumble around the sky like they're toys.  At least E:D ships feel like the big lumbering lumps of metal than they are.

Seriously, look at this ****:

(http://i.giphy.com/tUilVT3gQDqyk.gif)

They feel like toys.  There's absolutely no sense of mass or inertia.  They may as well be balloons.  Ships in FSO feel weightier than this.

And you know what?  This isn't something they can fix easily.  Their flight models are ****ed because they design a ship before they touch the flight model, so you've got a ship designed 100% for form over function, and then you're trying to make it actually function.  They need a ship to turn better?  Their only option is to make the maneuvering thrusters more powerful (also affects lateral speed and acceleration). Which is how you end up with maneuvering thrusters that are nearly as strong as the main ones.  It's CR's stupid obsession with ~realism~ ruining the game.

I also find it very funny that g-forces and G-LOC are only a problem if you're sitting in the pilot seat.  If you're not in the pilot seat, the ship can be spinning at 3000RPM and you won't be able to tell unless you look outside.

Also, the FPS is just a generic CoD clone but with really terrible animations.



unrelated, from way back in 2012:

Quote from: http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2012-12-13-star-citizen-well-compete-with-any-aaa-game-out-there
"I'm confident now that we'll be able to compete with any AAA game out there,” he says. “I can't do what I did with Freelancer, or what id did with Rage, and take five years to release it. At that point, the moment in time will be gone. But in two years, it will be pretty great.”

lol

Your gif shows two ships colliding. That has little to do with flight model, that is just physics freaking out.

However, you are correct that thrusters in SC were really powerful. One reason behind it is that there was no jerk mechanics implemented until this month. You pressed a button, and the thruster went immediately to full thrust. This is not true in 2.0 anymore, acceleration has a rate of change now, and thus ships will react much more smoothly to controls. Especially bigger ships. Another thing to realize is that most ships in game so far are small fighters. Those are supposed to be very maneuverable, and should feel that way, too. Only bigger ships should feel like lumbering lumps of metal, IMHO.

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/15031-Star-Citizen-Alpha-20

G-forces and G-LOC dont affect people in ships because physical impulses across different physics grids (global to local etc.) are not yet implemented. The same reason why weapon impacts do not affect physics inside ships yet. This will be corrected in the future.

Regarding your quote from 2012, lol indeed. If there is one totally valid criticism of SC, it is that it will be considerably delayed from original plan. This is due to a combination of expanding the scope of the game and overly optimistic original schedule. But, I dont give a damn if the game takes 2 years or 6 years to develop, as long as the end result is good. And I believe SC will be a great game indeed, despite not everything being ideal..
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 12, 2015, 10:32:23 am
Your gif shows two ships colliding. That has little to do with flight model, that is just physics freaking out.
Physics has everything to do with the flight model when the flight model is built from the ground up around physics.  It's a perfect example of what I mean when I say ships have no mass.  You've got a Glaive literally picking up a ship twice its size and it may as well be a balloon for how heavy it feels. (https://youtu.be/fs2u5UP7u3M?t=42)

Quote
However, you are correct that thrusters in SC were really powerful. One reason behind it is that there was no jerk mechanics implemented until this month. You pressed a button, and the thruster went immediately to full thrust. This is not true in 2.0 anymore, acceleration has a rate of change now, and thus ships will react much more smoothly to controls. Especially bigger ships. Another thing to realize is that most ships in game so far are small fighters. Those are supposed to be very maneuverable, and should feel that way, too. Only bigger ships should feel like lumbering lumps of metal, IMHO.
Small fighters IRL weigh 20 tonnes.  Ships in SC feel like they don't even weigh 1.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 12, 2015, 11:34:46 am
Your gif shows two ships colliding. That has little to do with flight model, that is just physics freaking out.
Physics has everything to do with the flight model when the flight model is built from the ground up around physics.  It's a perfect example of what I mean when I say ships have no mass.  You've got a Glaive literally picking up a ship twice its size and it may as well be a balloon for how heavy it feels. (https://youtu.be/fs2u5UP7u3M?t=42)

As I said, thats just game physics freaking out - an obviously bugged behaviour not representative of normal non-bugged flying or intended final state of the game. The Constellation is literally pierced by the Glaive, thats why the abrupt movements happen.

Masses, thruster powers etc. in game are far from final. The core flight model was being worked on right until last month. Obviously, tweaking detailed stats before the system is even implemented is pretty pointless. When I say that SC flight model is really good and superior to games like Freespace or Elite, I mean that spaceships generally fly like spaceships should. Games such as Diaspora or Babylon 5: Ive Found Her have SC-like flight models, too, and they are the pinnacle of space flight genre. I dont mean that all the masses and thruster power parameters of all ships are just right. Such tweaking comes later in development.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 12, 2015, 11:47:16 am
Your gif shows two ships colliding. That has little to do with flight model, that is just physics freaking out.
Physics has everything to do with the flight model when the flight model is built from the ground up around physics.  It's a perfect example of what I mean when I say ships have no mass.  You've got a Glaive literally picking up a ship twice its size and it may as well be a balloon for how heavy it feels. (https://youtu.be/fs2u5UP7u3M?t=42)

As I said, thats just game physics freaking out - an obviously bugged behaviour not representative of normal non-bugged flying or intended final state of the game. The Constellation is literally pierced by the Glaive, thats why the abrupt movements happen.
No, that's not what happens.  All that happens is that the Glaive's blades scoop the Constellation up.  That's what the guy in it was trying to do.  It happens all the time with ships of all types on the landing pads.  But I do think it's amusing that you think typical ship behavior is a physics bug.  Speaks very highly of the game, doesn't it?


Quote
Masses, thruster powers etc. in game are far from final. The core flight model was being worked on right until last month. Obviously, tweaking detailed stats before the system is even implemented is pretty pointless. When I say that SC flight model is really good and superior to games like Freespace or Elite, I mean that spaceships generally fly like spaceships should. Games such as Diaspora or Babylon 5: Ive Found Her have SC-like flight models, too, and they are the pinnacle of space flight genre. I dont mean that all the masses and thruster power parameters of all ships are just right. Such tweaking comes later in development.
Again, because of the way they design their ships and flight mechanics, this isn't something that can be easily fixed.  They've made a system where ship stats are intrinsically tied to the physics engine and ship models.  To fix this, they'd need to revamp the whole system.

Er, ships in Elite 'fly like spaceships should'.  It's not a perfectly Newtonian flight model, but neither is SC.  Actually, it feels a lot more like a well-represented physical environment than SC does because inertia is actually a thing you need to deal with, unlike SC.  Hell, flying an Eagle in E:D  is much, much closer to Diaspora than SC is.  You haven't played it, have you?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: FrikgFeek on December 12, 2015, 12:14:54 pm
The difference is that Diaspora didn't tie spaceship behaviour to the physics engine and had a much easier time tweaking the mechanics to make it more fun. The fighters also had a real feeling of weight to them, something the FSO engine does very well.

SC on the other hand feels like Descent but without the small indoor levels that actually made Descent exciting.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 12, 2015, 12:26:19 pm
Quote
No, that's not what happens.  All that happens is that the Glaive's blades scoop the Constellation up.  That's what the guy in it was trying to do.

Perhaps. My point is, its a collision bug, not a flight model feature.

Quote
Again, because of the way they design their ships and flight mechanics, this isn't something that can be easily fixed.  They've made a system where ship stats are intrinsically tied to the physics engine and ship models.  To fix this, they'd need to revamp the whole system.

Nope, they just need to tweak the ship mass / thruster power parameters. That is literally all there is to it. You can achieve any desired physically possible behaviour just by tweaking those numbers, as long as you have enough thrusters on all sides for 6DOF flight (which all ships have). Well, that and the max speed of course, which is another free parameter.

Inertia too low? Increase mass / decrease thruster power until it feels as desired. Inertia too high? Do the opposite.

Quote
Hell, flying an Eagle in E:D  is much, much closer to Diaspora than SC is.  You haven't played it, have you?

Yes I have. And E:D model isnt fundamentally bad, they just need to get rid of the awful yaw limit.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 12, 2015, 01:02:09 pm
Quote
No, that's not what happens.  All that happens is that the Glaive's blades scoop the Constellation up.  That's what the guy in it was trying to do.

Perhaps. My point is, its a collision bug, not a flight model feature.
It is not a collision bug.  It's a collision.  That's it.  This is just how SC ships interact when they collide (because they have no mass).  There's a dozen videos on Youtube that can attest to that fact.  It moves around because the Glaive pilot is maneuvering, but there's no bug there.  There's only two ships that have no real mass, one of which is making thruster inputs.  Hell, apparently someone submitted a support ticket and got told it was all working as intended, according to the Reddit comment thread.

Quote
Nope, they just need to tweak the ship mass / thruster power parameters. That is literally all there is to it. You can achieve any desired physically possible behaviour just by tweaking those numbers, as long as you have enough thrusters on all sides for 6DOF flight (which all ships have). Well, that and the max speed of course, which is another free parameter.

Inertia too low? Increase mass / decrease thruster power until it feels as desired. Inertia too high? Do the opposite.
Not that easy.  See, you can't change turn rates without changing acceleration in every direction.  You can't make a ship that turns fast but has poor lateral movement, because it uses the same thrusters for both.  And that why ships feel so weightless: because they want fast, responsive turn speeds. 

To get fast, responsive turn speeds, ships need to have very powerful thrusters and low mass.  If they don't have that, ships feel sluggish and unresponsive in turns, and inertia makes them overshoot a lot because inertia is the enemy of fast and precise movement.  That's how it was for a while after AC released.  Ships flew like they had mass, but combined with their broken FBW controller, it wasn't terribly fun to fly and fixed weapons were completely useless.  Now ships are fairly responsive.  You don't overshoot much when turning.  But they have no mass.  There's absolutely no weight and no inertia to any movement.  And that's the problem with SC's flight model.  They've made it so you can't have the responsive handling a fast-paced fighter sim needs without having an essentially weightless ship.  This is an inevitable result of their physical thruster-based flight model.  It can't be fixed without cheating, and CR doesn't want to cheat because ~realism~.


Dogfight-related: whoever designed the cockpit warning sounds is a goddamn moron.  Constantly hearing "CONTACT, SCANNING, CONTACT, FLARE DEPLOYED, FLARE READY, CONTACT, SHIELD CHARGING, CONTACT, SHIELDS UP, FLARE DEPLOYED, FLARE READY, CONTACT, SCANNING" is just ****ing annoying.  Did no one listen to cockpit sounds from real aircraft before designing this crap?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Cobra on December 12, 2015, 01:51:44 pm
It's kinda funny, because I'm an original backer. I've got the Squadron 42 shirt and the bronze Citizen card they gave out ages ago. Arena Commander at the very start was AWESOME, if frustrating. Lag was so bad that I was at an extreme disadvantage. Fast forward a few years later and the game has progressed to the point where my system is unable to play Arena Commander without dropping to 10FPS and the sound stuttering and skipping to match the frame rate. I'm hugely disappointed, but want to hold on for some kind of hope that this turns out even remotely as advertised.

Still, I'm thinking about selling some of my pledged ships. I remember you could do that, but I'm unsure if that's still possible.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Kszyhu on December 12, 2015, 02:02:01 pm
I think all those sales made buying second-hand ships (or promises of ships) a less attractive option, but don't quote me on that.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 12, 2015, 02:03:59 pm
Quote
You can't make a ship that turns fast but has poor lateral movement, because it uses the same thrusters for both.

Why the hell would you want to do such a thing?

You have either light ships that move fast and turn fast (fighters), or heavy ships that move slowly and turn slowly (capital ships). And of course the spectrum in between.. But there is no reason to have a ship that both turns fast AND has poor lateral movement. It would just look weird.

Small ships in SC, like Glaive, behave well. The problem is that bigger ships (like Constellation) have too little mass/inertia compared to the small ones, and so move and turn too quickly, not only when reacting to their own thrusters (which can always be adjusted in power), but also to external impulses. But this was apparently fixed in one of the latest patches, at least when it comes to the Constellation, which now has increased mass. I will test it after 2.0 download is finished.

Increasing the mass of the Constellation compared to the Glaive is literally all it takes to fix the situation in your gif (assuming its not a bug). Then you can perhaps increase the Constellation thruster output to compensate, but I would not want that much, such a big ship should feel more sluggish.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Cobra on December 12, 2015, 02:05:11 pm
I think all those sales made buying second-hand ships (or promises of ships) a less attractive option, but don't quote me on that.

My ships come with the lifetime insurance. :P
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Kszyhu on December 12, 2015, 02:11:00 pm
Isn't LTI common now thanks to CIG still selling ships with the insurance? I didn't really follow that facet of development, but at least some people seem to agree: https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/3tlvcc/ccu_has_killed_lti_just_give_prebeta_ships_lti/
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 12, 2015, 03:13:16 pm
Why the hell would you want to do such a thing?
So ship turning is fast and responsive like you want for a fast-paced fighter sim, but other ship movements actually have some inertia.  So you don't need to have a null-mass fighter with maneuvering thrusters that are nearly as powerful as the main thruster just so it won't turn like a cow. 

Moot point because their system can't do it.


Cobra: https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen_trades

You're not gonna get the prices you'd have gotten last year, but LTI ships should still make a profit.  I strongly recommend using a middleman.  I used Kane.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Cobra on December 12, 2015, 03:55:47 pm

Cobra: https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen_trades

You're not gonna get the prices you'd have gotten last year, but LTI ships should still make a profit.  I strongly recommend using a middleman.  I used Kane.

I don't even know how any of this **** works. :blah:
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 12, 2015, 11:06:17 pm

Cobra: https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen_trades

You're not gonna get the prices you'd have gotten last year, but LTI ships should still make a profit.  I strongly recommend using a middleman.  I used Kane.

I don't even know how any of this **** works. :blah:

Make a Reddit account, read through this (https://www.reddit.com/r/Starcitizen_trades/comments/25tqik/kanes_middleman_services_terms_and_conditions/), message the guy about the ship or ships you want to sell, and follow his instructions.  You'll need a verified paypal account.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Hades on December 12, 2015, 11:55:18 pm
If that's a daunting prospect for you it's also possible to get a refund from CIG directly, though they'll try their damned hardest to hold on to the money as keeping Ben fed is incredibly expensive
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Mikes on December 13, 2015, 03:46:08 am
If that's a daunting prospect for you it's also possible to get a refund from CIG directly, though they'll try their damned hardest to hold on to the money as keeping Ben fed is incredibly expensive

:facepalm:
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 13, 2015, 09:50:29 am
(http://www.ultraimg.com/images/refund.gif)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on December 13, 2015, 10:07:12 am
at this early stage of development i don't think we can really draw any conclusions about the quality of duke nukem forever as a finished product
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Cobra on December 13, 2015, 12:19:35 pm
If that's a daunting prospect for you it's also possible to get a refund from CIG directly, though they'll try their damned hardest to hold on to the money as keeping Ben fed is incredibly expensive

Not that daunting, but more like I don't even know how to use Reddit right now. :P I'm not even going to try to get a refund, since I already know I probably won't get it back. I'm keeping my main pledges though, in case something DOES happen.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 13, 2015, 02:33:43 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/o4AD57T.jpg)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: FrikgFeek on December 13, 2015, 03:46:47 pm
While it's funny to see Cultizens talk about how ridiculously super realistic innovative and whatever SC is going to be you can't really compare India's space program to videogames.
I mean, SW:TOR cost $200M and it wasn't doing anything that different aside from polish(and full VA). GTA V was pretty much a standard GTA game with MORE stuff and it cost $137M to develop and a ****-ton more to market.

Videogames more expensive than most real-life groundbreaking sscience is nothing new.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on December 13, 2015, 06:21:15 pm
If you want to compare Star Citizen to a video game, why not compare it to something that's cheaper?

Witcher 3 was 81 million
Skyrim was likewise 80 million

And these games are done.

Comparing it to TOR or GTA5 is actually misleading in my opinion because those games are renown as some of the most expensive games of the modern age, and they are not representative of the norm.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 14, 2015, 01:56:47 am
If you want to compare Star Citizen to a video game, why not compare it to something that's cheaper?

Witcher 3 was 81 million
Skyrim was likewise 80 million

And these games are done.

Comparing it to TOR or GTA5 is actually misleading in my opinion because those games are renown as some of the most expensive games of the modern age, and they are not representative of the norm.

Star Citizen scope and ambition is also not representative of the norm, so comparison to such average games would be misleading.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: FrikgFeek on December 14, 2015, 01:59:30 am
Yeah, the Witcher 3 stayed focused on what it wanted to do and released on time as a good game. SC on the other hand is much more 'ambitious' like Duke Nukem Forever.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 14, 2015, 03:03:12 am
Squadron 42 isn't that ambitious.  And yet it's been constantly delayed just like everything else. 

In 4 years and $100M, CIG have released nothing but an elaborate tech demo (even if Sandi thinks they've already delivered a $30 game). 

In the same amount of time and with half the money (because actual development cost was ~$40M, rest was marketing), CDPR delivered what's probably the finest RPG ever made.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: FrikgFeek on December 14, 2015, 03:53:29 am
The Witcher 3 was 46M$ to develop and 35M$ to market. Though to be completely fair it would've been more expensive had it been made in the US but the difference wouldn't be that huge.

And TW3 is a huge and very polished game, very far from what you'd normally call 'non-ambitious' . It broke most conventional RPG Tropes in both story and gameplay.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 14, 2015, 04:40:33 am
Squadron 42 isn't that ambitious.  And yet it's been constantly delayed just like everything else. 

In 4 years and $100M, CIG have released nothing but an elaborate tech demo (even if Sandi thinks they've already delivered a $30 game). 

In the same amount of time and with half the money (because actual development cost was ~$40M, rest was marketing), CDPR delivered what's probably the finest RPG ever made.

S42 is not the whole game, just part of it. Do you have a source for the marketing/actual development fraction of the cost? You dont know when the development began, since its not open to the public.

You are also ignoring important differences - CD Projekt is already a very well established company with studios and 2 decades of experience. Witcher 3 was even a sequel! CIG had almost no development infrastructure established before the start of the crowdfunding campaign and did not exist 5 years ago. Star Citizen is a new game, not a sequel. You are expecting a company to go from nothing at all to beyond CD Projekt in 3-4 years?

The only mistake CIG made was initially publishing the overly optimistic release schedule. By now they realized their mistake and switched to "when its done" model, refusing to state longterm dates, which is a good thing. This is how it should have been from the start (Minecraft/DayZ development model). If you really cant accept such change, feel free to request a refund (you can always buy the game after it comes out and is good). There are many more people like me who dont mind more waiting, even several years of waiting, if it is necessary and means a better game in the end. And its not like we get nothing in the meantime, Alpha versions are available for playing, and the open AAA game development process is an unprecedented and interesting show of its own, probably alone worth the $45.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: The E on December 14, 2015, 05:00:10 am
No, their mistake was pretty clearly to keep increasing the scope as more money rolled in, even after the end of the kickstarter campaign. Oh, and also promising this game to be everything to everyone (You want the best space sim? Buy SC! Want a really good FPS? Buy SC! Want an MMO? Buy SC! Singleplayer? We got you covered! Want to be a trader, combat pilot, pirate, explorer? Buy Elite Dangerous SC! Cinematics? We sure have those! Celebrity VAs? Got those as well! Planetary landings and evironments in the initial release? You bet your ass we're gonna have them! New ships without adequately defined gameplay attached? Got you covered!).

Meanwhile, Frontier delivered a base game only about half a year after the initially planned release date, got a player base, and kept increasing the scope of the game incrementally. Had CIG concentrated on delivering either a persistant universe or Squadron 42, with plans to expand the scope post-launch, then we'd probably not be having these discussions.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 14, 2015, 05:17:09 am
S42 is not the whole game, just part of it. Do you have a source for the marketing/actual development fraction of the cost? You dont know when the development began, since its not open to the public.
They talk about it in this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MyMiT4OUy4).  And I seriously doubt development of TW3 started before TW2 was released, so that means late 2011.

SQ42 is a standalone game, it isn't terribly ambitious, and doesn't require them to overcome the biggest technological hurdle they'll need to overcome for the PU (that being the netcode).  Its scope hasn't increased like the PU has, so feature creep isn't an excuse.  CR claimed it would be done last year.  So where is it?

Quote
You are also ignoring important differences - CD Projekt is already a very well established company with studios and 2 decades of experience. Witcher 3 was even a sequel! CIG had almost no development infrastructure established before the start of the crowdfunding campaign and did not exist 5 years ago. Star Citizen is a new game, not a sequel. You are expecting a company to go from nothing at all to beyond CD Projekt in 3-4 years?
So why are you expecting that a new company without much experience is going to successfully deliver a game this ambitious?  Especially considering that the last game the guy at the top tried to make was a complete failure that only made it to release because Microsoft stepped in and kicked him off the project?  They've stated they haven't even finished the design document for core gameplay systems like ship customization, and they've refused to elaborate on others at all.  All they've managed to do is distract you with shiny jpegs while remaining silent on gameplay beyond vague ideas.

What part of this project inspires confidence?  Beyond having taken $100M of preorders, I mean.


Quote
The only mistake CIG made was initially publishing the overly optimistic release schedule. By now they realized their mistake and switched to "when its done" model, refusing to state longterm dates, which is a good thing. This is how it should have been from the start (Minecraft/DayZ development model). If you really cant accept such change, feel free to request a refund (you can always buy the game after it comes out and is good). There are many more people like me who dont mind more waiting, even several years of waiting, if it is necessary and means a better game in the end. And its not like we get nothing in the meantime, Alpha versions are available for playing, and the open AAA game development process is an unprecedented and interesting show of its own, probably alone worth the $45.
Ah yes, the Duke Nukem Forever approach to game development.  Worked out so well in the past, hasn't it?

No, I'm sorry, I'm never going to think that CIG being so incapable of sticking to deadlines that they stop setting them is a good thing.  It isn't.  Constantly missing deadlines like they do is representative of incompetent management, and that doesn't suddenly go away because they've stopped giving out release dates.


EDIT: more weightless ship movement:
(http://www.ultraimg.com/images/v9EZZN.gif)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 14, 2015, 06:27:58 am
Quote
SQ42 is a standalone game, it isn't terribly ambitious, and doesn't require them to overcome the biggest technological hurdle they'll need to overcome for the PU (that being the netcode).  Its scope hasn't increased like the PU has, so feature creep isn't an excuse.  CR claimed it would be done last year.  So where is it?

Scope of SQ42 was also increased in the funding goals. And no, its not a standalone game, its deeply intewined with PU, for example using the same game engine and assets. It pretty obvious that delays in the common parts could affect both of them.

Quote
So why are you expecting that a new company without much experience is going to successfully deliver a game this ambitious?  Especially considering that the last game the guy at the top tried to make was a complete failure that only made it to release because Microsoft stepped in and kicked him off the project?  They've stated they haven't even finished the design document for core gameplay systems like ship customization, and they've refused to elaborate on others at all.  All they've managed to do is distract you with shiny jpegs while remaining silent on gameplay beyond vague ideas.

Yes I expect them to, just not in 3-4 years. You can probably double that.

How do you know whats in their design documents? Are you a designer at CIG?

Quote
What part of this project inspires confidence?  Beyond having taken $100M of preorders, I mean.

Alpha 2.0, for example. The whole open game development thing, where we can see what they are working on at the moment and see the progress.

Quote
Ah yes, the Duke Nukem Forever approach to game development.  Worked out so well in the past, hasn't it?

Nope, Duke Nukem was developed in secret, there were no continual updates and alpha versions released. I mean Minecraft approach to game development, which indeed worked very well, considering its now the best selling game of all time. You can say that Star Citizen is now around Minecraft Infdev stage. You could definitely call Infdev a glorified tech demo, and look at it a few years later.

Quote
EDIT: more weightless ship movement:

Low weight, or too powerful thrusters? Would look the same.

Easy fix anyway - just increase ship mass. You are nitpicking.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: karajorma on December 14, 2015, 06:35:33 am
You are also ignoring important differences - CD Projekt is already a very well established company with studios and 2 decades of experience. Witcher 3 was even a sequel! CIG had almost no development infrastructure established before the start of the crowdfunding campaign and did not exist 5 years ago. Star Citizen is a new game, not a sequel. You are expecting a company to go from nothing at all to beyond CD Projekt in 3-4 years?
So why are you expecting that a new company without much experience is going to successfully deliver a game this ambitious?  Especially considering that the last game the guy at the top tried to make was a complete failure that only made it to release because Microsoft stepped in and kicked him off the project?  They've stated they haven't even finished the design document for core gameplay systems like ship customization, and they've refused to elaborate on others at all.  All they've managed to do is distract you with shiny jpegs while remaining silent on gameplay beyond vague ideas.

What part of this project inspires confidence?  Beyond having taken $100M of preorders, I mean.

This. So many, many times this.

It took CD Projekt 3 goes to make a game as ambitious as Witcher 3. They started out relatively small and only went to open world after they had already proved that they had something worth being as ambitious with. And this is despite them having a major ace in the hole because they started out with a highly detailed fantasy world thanks to the fact that they had books to base their entire series on.

SC on the other hand started out with nothing. They had no established plot or universe which means that they need to come up with all that stuff themselves. All they had was a big name game designer who hasn't worked in game design for over a decade. Why on Earth did they imagine that they could put together something as ground breaking as Star Citizen with almost no relevant experience in the genre?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: The E on December 14, 2015, 06:53:44 am
Quote
So why are you expecting that a new company without much experience is going to successfully deliver a game this ambitious?  Especially considering that the last game the guy at the top tried to make was a complete failure that only made it to release because Microsoft stepped in and kicked him off the project?  They've stated they haven't even finished the design document for core gameplay systems like ship customization, and they've refused to elaborate on others at all.  All they've managed to do is distract you with shiny jpegs while remaining silent on gameplay beyond vague ideas.

Yes I expect them to, just not in 3-4 years. You can probably double that.

How do you know whats in their design documents? Are you a designer at CIG?

Another 3 or 4 years, hmm? When most estimates have CIG somewhere between 2 or 3 months from running out of money? Tell me, how many more jpegs do you expect CIG to sell?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 14, 2015, 07:16:21 am
And no, its not a standalone game
Sandi disagrees. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXGsz0ZoduY&feature=youtu.be&t=455)  But I'm sure you know better than she does, right? 

Quote
Yes I expect them to, just not in 3-4 years. You can probably double that.
  At which point their models will be dated and they'll redesign them like they've already done with half their ships.  But the idea that this game will take so long to make that it'll look dated by the time it releases is really funny to me.

Quote
How do you know whats in their design documents? Are you a designer at CIG?
No, I just listened to what they said during the anniversary livestream. (https://youtu.be/s7u7cgRY-fc?t=5095)

Do you keep up with this game's development at all, or is "oooh, shiny" the extent of your research?


Calling it now, you'll think this is a great answer and won't understand how it's obvious that they haven't pinned very much down about it.

Quote
Alpha 2.0, for example. The whole open game development thing, where we can see what they are working on at the moment and see the progress.
You were here championing SC long before 2.0 came out, so it's clearly not 2.0 that gives you such confidence.  And their development is far from open.  Refer back to what I said about their silence regarding the specifics of important gameplay mechanics. 

Hell, the community can't even decide what CIG intends to do about PvP and piracy.  There were a dozen threads about it on the SC forums, and no one knows.  About how they're going to handle PvP.  In a ****ing MMO!

Quote
Nope, Duke Nukem was developed in secret, there were no continual updates and alpha versions released.
This is utterly irrelevant.  What doomed DNF isn't that they developed everything behind closed doors, it's that they didn't know when to say "good enough".  They always tried to incorporate the latest tech and keep everything top-of-the-line, and that meant they were incapable of meeting a release date.  CIG is already doing this.  Do you think they're suddenly going to stop?

Quote from: Ben Lesnick, https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/comment/5283349/#Comment_5283349
Every single piece of art you saw last year has been revamped since then, every single ship has either been reworked or is scheduled to be.

Quote
Low weight, or too powerful thrusters? Would look the same.

Easy fix anyway - just increase ship mass. You are nitpicking.
And you're not listening to a word I'm saying:
To get fast, responsive turn speeds, ships need to have very powerful thrusters and low mass.  If they don't have that, ships feel sluggish and unresponsive in turns, and inertia makes them overshoot a lot because inertia is the enemy of fast and precise movement.  That's how it was for a while after AC released.  Ships flew like they had mass, but combined with their broken FBW controller, it wasn't terribly fun to fly and fixed weapons were completely useless.  Now ships are fairly responsive.  You don't overshoot much when turning.  But they have no mass.  There's absolutely no weight and no inertia to any movement.  And that's the problem with SC's flight model.  They've made it so you can't have the responsive handling a fast-paced fighter sim needs without having an essentially weightless ship.  This is an inevitable result of their physical thruster-based flight model.  It can't be fixed without cheating, and CR doesn't want to cheat because ~realism~.



Okay, serious question: are you trolling, or are you so deluded that you're selectively blocking out things that conflict with your internal narrative?

Actually, don't answer that.  You're doing the exact same thing you did during the IS thread in GenDisc: If reality and your internal narrative conflict, reality is wrong.  It's why we keep on having to repeat the same arguments over and over again: the idea that you might be wrong is completely incomprehensible.  You literally don't see how an argument has defeated yours.  You just double down.

Example: I already explained why "just increase the mass" doesn't work.  You ignore my explanation, then a few posts later, you repeat your initial argument as though it hasn't already been refuted.

You're a cultist.  Plain and simple.  Faith trumps reality.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 14, 2015, 07:16:34 am
Quote
So why are you expecting that a new company without much experience is going to successfully deliver a game this ambitious?  Especially considering that the last game the guy at the top tried to make was a complete failure that only made it to release because Microsoft stepped in and kicked him off the project?  They've stated they haven't even finished the design document for core gameplay systems like ship customization, and they've refused to elaborate on others at all.  All they've managed to do is distract you with shiny jpegs while remaining silent on gameplay beyond vague ideas.

Yes I expect them to, just not in 3-4 years. You can probably double that.

How do you know whats in their design documents? Are you a designer at CIG?

Another 3 or 4 years, hmm? When most estimates have CIG somewhere between 2 or 3 months from running out of money? Tell me, how many more jpegs do you expect CIG to sell?

Oh, so now you are not only a designer, but also a financial specialist at CIG.. You really know everything about their internal operations, dont you?

Such guesstimates are nothing but wild speculations based on wild speculations. We know pretty much nothing about their expenses and remaining reserves. Or how much more untapped backer potential there is, unlocked when improved versions of the game are released in the future (yes, there is a game, not just jpegs, you seem to have missed that).
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 14, 2015, 07:20:09 am
Or how much more untapped backer potential there is, unlocked when improved versions of the game are released in the future (yes, there is a game, not just jpegs, you seem to have missed that).
  They're seriously worried about attracting more backers, hence the ponzi scheme referral system and "limited" cash-only packages during the sale.  Seems pretty obvious they're reaching market saturation.  Milking the whales not good enough anymore, I guess.

And no, it's not a game, it's a tech demo.  Apart from the graphics, 2.0 is the sort of thing you'd show to a publisher as a proof of concept.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 14, 2015, 08:02:29 am
Quote
Sandi disagrees.  But I'm sure you know better than she does, right? 

Nowhere is she saying that the games dont share engine and assets. Thats all it takes to make my point right.

Quote
At which point their models will be dated and they'll redesign them like they've already done with half their ships.  But the idea that this game will take so long to make that it'll look dated by the time it releases is really funny to me.

Considering that advances in game graphics pretty much slowed down to a crawl in the last few years (you can blame consoles for a lot when it comes to that), this is the last thing I am afraid of. Original Crysis still looks very good, and that was released in 2007. Metro 2033 still looks better than most games on the market, that was 5 years ago.

Quote
Do you keep up with this game's development at all, or is "oooh, shiny" the extent of your research?


Calling it now, you'll think this is a great answer and won't understand why it's so vague.

Perhaps they dont have yet determined that the extent of loadout customization that should be allowed in SQ42? I mean, I think deciding about such a thing would come later, when they can actually test in game how much customization can player be allowed to do, to not break the intended mission flow and balance.

Quote
You were here championing SC long before 2.0 came out, so it's clearly not 2.0 that gives you such confidence.

Before that, it was Arena Commander. Now its Alpha 2.0. My point is, early versions are being released, there is obvious progress happening with the game. Thats why I have confidence.

Quote
This is utterly irrelevant.  What doomed DNF isn't that they developed everything behind closed doors, it's that they didn't know when to say "good enough".  They always tried to incorporate the latest tech and keep everything top-of-the-line, and that meant they were utterly incapable of meeting a release date.  CIG is already doing this.  Do you think they're suddenly going to stop?

CIG has already stopped doing this long ago. The scope of the game was fixed when $65 million was reached (the last stretch goal). Asset polish here and there is not bloat, iterative development is not bloat.

Quote
To get fast, responsive turn speeds, ships need to have very powerful thrusters and low mass.  If they don't have that, ships feel sluggish and unresponsive in turns, and inertia makes them overshoot a lot because inertia is the enemy of fast and precise movement.  That's how it was for a while after AC released.  Ships flew like they had mass, but combined with their broken FBW controller, it wasn't terribly fun to fly and fixed weapons were completely useless.  Now ships are fairly responsive.  You don't overshoot much when turning.  But they have no mass.  There's absolutely no weight and no inertia to any movement.  And that's the problem with SC's flight model.  They've made it so you can't have the responsive handling a fast-paced fighter sim needs without having an essentially weightless ship.  This is an inevitable result of their physical thruster-based flight model.  It can't be fixed without cheating, and CR doesn't want to cheat because ~realism~.

See:
http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=90080.msg1807235#msg1807235

Small agile ships like fighters should feel like that, there is nothing wrong with them. Bigger ships should feel heavier (both turning and moving), their mass should be increased, but you dont need to change flight model for that. Cutlass should have its mass increased a bit IMHO, but its really not that bad. Its a nitpick at this point, obviously tweaking such individual ship parameters would come after the engine is stable, so they can be tested against each other in many scenarios.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on December 14, 2015, 08:47:10 am
Quote from: 666maslo666
<Blind faith>
(http://i1054.photobucket.com/albums/s490/kingspoon/Junk/1294212062741_zpsyrsymcgv.gif~original)

I don't know why you even try, Aesaar. It seems like your efforts would be better spend talking to a wall. You'd probably get a more intelligent response from a wall at least.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 14, 2015, 08:52:52 am
Nowhere is she saying that the games dont share engine and assets. Thats all it takes to make my point right.
What?  You said that the reason SQ42 isn't done is that it isn't a standalone game, when it is.  Hell, CR already said SQ42 won't even have the final version of their flight model.  Your excuses are getting increasingly flimsy.

And I sure hope the two games won't share an engine.  That would be very dumb.  A singleplayer sim doesn't need a lot of the **** an MMO sandbox does.  There's absolutely no reason they need to wait for the PU version of the engine.  And if assets are the bottleneck, then that reinforces my point: SQ42 is delayed because of mismanagement.  They should have concentrated on getting SQ42 done. 

I'm pretty damn sure that an SQ42 release would have been far better received than any of the modules they've released so far.  If that had happened, we probably wouldn't be having this conversation.

Quote
Considering that advances in game graphics pretty much slowed down to a crawl in the last few years (you can blame consoles for a lot when it comes to that), this is the last thing I am afraid of. Original Crysis still looks very good, and that was released in 2007. Metro 2033 still looks better than most games on the market, that was 5 years ago.
This argument would hold a lot more water if they hadn't said that most of their assets from last year had been redesigned. They obviously thought their models no longer met the standards they were after.

Quote
Perhaps they dont have yet determined that the extent of loadout customization that should be allowed in SQ42? I mean, I think deciding about such a thing would come later, when they can actually test in game how much customization can player be allowed to do, to not break the intended mission flow and balance.
If they'd pinned something substantial down, they could have done more than repeating the same vague stuff they first talked about 3 years ago.  And something as fundamental as ship customisation is something you want to have pinned down before you start making missions (just like your flight models), not after.  You can't make fun and balanced missions if you don't know what the player and enemy ships are capable of. 

This is something this community knows a lot about.  Actually, I'd say we know more about it than CR does.  Over the last 15 years, while he's been making crappy movies, HLP's been designing space sim missions.

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Before that, it was Arena Commander. Now its Alpha 2.0. My point is, early versions are being released, there is obvious progress happening with the game. Thats why I have confidence.

So your confidence comes from them making nothing but tech demos in the same amount of time a competent studio takes to make a full game.  Okay then.

I could understand this attitude if CIG had released SQ42, not just glorified tech demos.  4 years in, and they've released less than they promised they would have by now.  They're released substantially less than a competent studio does in the same timeframe.  And this makes you feel confident about their ability to deliver a game this ambitious.  How?  I mean, how?


Quote
CIG has already stopped doing this long ago. The scope of the game was fixed when $65 million was reached (the last stretch goal). Asset polish here and there is not bloat, iterative development is not bloat.

Quote from: Ben Lesnick, https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/comment/5283349/#Comment_5283349
Every single piece of art you saw last year has been revamped since then, every single ship has either been reworked or is scheduled to be.

https://i.imgur.com/sAHYFkm.png

Yeah, they stopped doing this a long time ago.  Definitely.


Quote
See:
http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=90080.msg1807235#msg1807235

Small agile ships like fighters should feel like that, there is nothing wrong with them. Bigger ships should feel heavier (both turning and moving), their mass should be increased, but you dont need to change flight model for that. Cutlass should have its mass increased a bit IMHO, but its really not that bad. Its a nitpick at this point, obviously tweaking such individual ship parameters would come after the engine is stable, so they can be tested against each other in many scenarios.

Which is a crock of ****.  Single-seat fighters shouldn't feel like they have weight?  What kind of retard logic is that?  Complete nonsense.  I thought the point of this game was to feel like you're flying a ship, not that you are the ship, and ships handling like it's Hawken in space runs completely counter to that.  Every single space sim I've ever played manages to have weightier fighters than SC does.  That I think this is bad isn't because I don't like 6DOF gameplay, it's because it's a perfect case for why making a "realistic" space sim is dumb.  SC's attempts at realism make it feel less realistic because realism is rarely conducive to good gameplay (especially in space), so they need to make glaringly obvious compromises (like weightless ships).  Weightless ships are and feel much less realistic than not perfectly simulating your maneuvering thrusters, and it plays worse too.


I don't know why you even try, Aesaar. It seems like your efforts would be better spend talking to a wall. You'd probably get a more intelligent response from a wall at least.
I don't know anymore.  Maybe because this is one of the few places where SC conversation isn't shut down by cultist morons.  I'm stubborn.

Probably won't bother much longer.  His arguments are increasingly circular.  Arguing with someone too deluded to understand he's been comprehensively defeated gets boring.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Polpolion on December 14, 2015, 10:45:25 am
I don't know anymore.  Maybe because this is one of the few places where SC conversation isn't shut down by cultist morons.  I'm stubborn.

You can't deny that Star Citizen is innovative in one respect - it's created the single worst game community without actually having a game. Half of them want it to fail and the other half think it's already succeeded. Maybe there's a little bit in the middle that just want to see how things go, but obviously they're no fun.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: GhylTarvoke on December 14, 2015, 11:26:33 am
Nothing about this project inspires me with confidence (except for the soundtrack, which seems decent). CR's track record speaks for itself. I'm also allergic to cults.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Det. Bullock on December 14, 2015, 11:33:33 am
(http://i.imgur.com/o4AD57T.jpg)
Dear god.   :wtf:

While it's funny to see Cultizens talk about how ridiculously super realistic innovative and whatever SC is going to be you can't really compare India's space program to videogames.
I mean, SW:TOR cost $200M and it wasn't doing anything that different aside from polish(and full VA). GTA V was pretty much a standard GTA game with MORE stuff and it cost $137M to develop and a ****-ton more to market.

Videogames more expensive than most real-life groundbreaking sscience is nothing new.

It's become a hollywood-size industry, for good or ill.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Kszyhu on December 14, 2015, 11:52:42 am
In regards to the 'haven't been done before' moniker, how unique are current capabilities of SC 2.0? I remember only two games sharing the ability to walk onboard a moving craft and interact with outside environment, namely BF2142 with its Titans (whose movements generated a lot of lag, apparently) and Space Engineers (though I'm not so sure of that, I didn't build anything larger than a fighter during free weekend on Steam). Did I miss anything painfully obvious?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: StarSlayer on December 14, 2015, 12:00:11 pm
Boy I'm glad I didn't care for the art direction of this thing in the early days and gave it a pass. :P
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Unknown Target on December 14, 2015, 01:17:01 pm
You guys should check out Angels Fall First...it's based on UDK, has space combat, ship boarding, ground combat, individual player controlled turrets, and more. It's on Steam Greenlight right now for less than $20.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8BwwplbaM8

Full disclosure: I did some modeling work with them at one point.

But seriously, if a tiny indie team with no funding can make this in 5 years, how has Star Citizen not made anything worth playing in 4 with $100 million and +210 people?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on December 14, 2015, 01:36:35 pm
Comparing it to Minecraft is frankly misleading. For one thing, people who bought into Minecraft got the full game available at a cheaper price. Whereas Star Citizen requires you to pony up additional cash for all assets available in game. Their business model is more like Mechwarrior Online with its 300 dollar mechs than Minecraft with its 30 dollar everything. Except of course MWO was free to play. And yeah, allegedly these ships wont be available for purchase post-launch but frankly I doubt the truthfulness of that statement.  If these ships have proven to be a huge source of revenue then are they going to cut themselves off from that? Hell no.

Witcher 3 just won game of the year by the way.  I don't think the word "average" applies to it in any regard.  Nor to Skyrim for that matter.

"Standalone" isn't a term that has anything to do with assets. It's about "does this game require an existing game to run?".  Far Cry Blood Dragon is standalone.  You didn't need Far Cry 3 to run it. Porky's Prefect 10 is standalone, didn't need Enslaved to run it.  On a modding site I would think people would know the meaning of "standalone" given that some of the mods hosted on here specifically advertise themselves as such.

And further I'm not sure that the scope of the game is all that exceptional.  I mean you got a game with a single player campaign, and multiplayer where you can run around and shoot guys, jump in a vehicle, shoot up more guys then land your vehicle hop out and repair it before getting in it again, and that game is called Battlefield 4.  Right.   That describes pretty much most of Star Citizen already.  Now you're going to be able to do trading and there'll be different stations or planets to land on and maybe there's some mining and whatnot but beyond flying a spaceship and shooting guys on foot what can a person do?

Think about the sorts of things that other games have to offer? In Space engineers you can mine, build, design and repair spaceships. In Ultima Online players partook in a variety of roles, built structures and consequently whole towns or civilizations, etcetera.  Some people apparently just worked as blacksmiths, building weapons for other people, etcetera. A whole sort of player-driven economy.  In a game like EVE Online, there are large guilds or groups or whatnot with thousands of players with alliances and economies, etcetera.

What of things can you do in Star Citizen? Can a group of players create their own station and start building weapons to outfit other player's ships? Can you design your own ships? Set yourself up as a repair jockey or station trader or a manufacturing hub? Can you play the game outside of the "driving a starship" role?

Star Citizen sounds like a game with a fair amount of components, lots of assets and a lot of game systems to enable the PU but not a lot of scope. What the player can do in the game is fairly narrow.
Now some other things could be added on later as the game progresses, but then again that's true of every component that is already delaying the game.  Personally I'm not sure why it even has an FPS component.  Boarding actions and "realistic starship combat" are two incompatible ideas.  Unless you have Star Trek transporters (like Pulsar Lost Colony), the only boarding you're likely to be doing are against space stations or perhaps assaulting a ground base that you want to capture intact.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 14, 2015, 01:52:03 pm
Quote
And I sure hope the two games won't share an engine.  That would be very dumb.  A singleplayer sim doesn't need a lot of the **** an MMO sandbox does.  There's absolutely no reason they need to wait for the PU version of the engine.

Why should they waste time making 2 different engines, when PU engine needs to be made anyway? Just so they can release SQ42 sooner, at the cost of releasing PU even later? How would that be better? They would just waste development time for no good reason whatsoever. Squadron 42 is standalone because you play it separately from the PU, thats all. You are reading too much into what Sandy said if you think she meant something deeper than that. It is not standalone when it comes to engine and assets, it shares a ton of that with PU.

Quote
This argument would hold a lot more water if they hadn't said that most of their assets from last year had been redesigned. They obviously thought their models no longer met the standards they were after.

Have you even considered that they actually never thought the models meet the final standards (after all, they were pretty ugly), and planned from the start to iteratively improve them - improving them in multiple incremental passes over time, as the engine gains features and modelers gain experience with the workflow?

Quote
And something as fundamental as ship customisation is something you want to have pinned down before you start making missions (just like your flight models), not after.  You can't make fun and balanced missions if you don't know what the player and enemy ships are capable of.

You can make WIP missions that are only roughly balanced and then balance them well before shipping. Such detailed balance testing comes late in the development, when all the gameplay is pinned down. Not when the flight model is still evolving.

Quote
Every single space sim I've ever played manages to have weightier fighters than SC does.

You know that in Freespace you can press one button (afterburner), and your ship goes from 0 to almost max speed in a fraction of a second? SC does not have anymore agile fighters than Freespace - Aurora or Hornet already handles well and they weigh exactly as they should. Only bigger ships are too agile, and fixing that requires a simple mass increase, not reworking a whole flight model. I dont know if you have noticed, but in SC all the bigger ships are very underweight, because someone early in development just made up their weights by comparing their lengths, while in reality weight scales with length cubed. This doesnt matter yet because masses of bigger ships will all be changed down the road during balancing anyway.

Quote
So your confidence comes from them making nothing but tech demos in the same amount of time a competent studio takes to make a full game.  Okay then.

A new company, heavily modified game engine AND a full game? Or an established studio reusing a prior game engine? Game like SC is harder to make than Witcher 3 or Elite, so of course it is going to take longer. Around 5 years, Id say. Thats 2017-2018 release. You are just being impatient, IMHO.

I already had a lot of fun flying in AC and Alpha 2.0, almost on par with Elite Dangerous. Now I see no reason to argue about the definition of "game" vs. "tech demo", it does not change the substance at all. By your logic you could call Minecraft Infdev a tech demo and not a game, yet obviously a lot of people enjoyed playing it, just as they do enjoy playing AC/Alpha 2.0 when it does not crash.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Unknown Target on December 14, 2015, 02:15:01 pm
maslow, how much have you spent on SC so far?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on December 14, 2015, 02:18:18 pm
Have you even considered that they actually never thought the models meet the final standards (after all, they were pretty ugly), and planned from the start to iteratively improve them - improving them in multiple incremental passes over time, as the engine gains features and modelers gain experience with the workflow?

That theory would make more sense in a project with fixed release dates. When the release dates keep getting pushed back and ships keep getting re-designed it doesn't look planned. 
When do the designs get locked down? When are they finalized? Instead of making a third version of the Freelancer, they could have added two additional ships to the game.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: The E on December 14, 2015, 02:29:53 pm
Why should they waste time making 2 different engines, when PU engine needs to be made anyway? Just so they can release SQ42 sooner, at the cost of releasing PU even later? How would that be better? They would just waste development time for no good reason whatsoever. Squadron 42 is standalone because you play it separately from the PU, thats all. You are reading too much into what Sandy said if you think she meant something deeper than that. It is not standalone when it comes to engine and assets, it shares a ton of that with PU.

Look at it another way: Since a lot of the tech needed for the PU is also needed for SC proper, developing all that tech and bugfixing it for S42 would not be a waste of time. Given proper development practices (which CIG really does not seem to get), developing S42 and then building on that work to make the PU happen would have been the correct move, or rather a move that would have a set of concrete deliverables attached, with a basic development framework that is well understood by all involved. Developing every piece of SC in parallel, as they are doing now, is pretty stupid, because it leads to this bull**** we're seeing now.

Quote
Have you even considered that they actually never thought the models meet the final standards (after all, they were pretty ugly), and planned from the start to iteratively improve them - improving them in multiple incremental passes over time, as the engine gains features and modelers gain experience with the workflow?

Then they're really ****ing stupid. Iterative design has its place. Redoing every single asset multiple times, with no clear artist ownership of them? That's really bad management practice. They redid every single asset once already, for PBR. Now they're redoing them again. Why? Is it because they realized that they never managed to set proper budgets for their art assets? Is it because they finally decided that they need a proper art pipeline? It doesn't really matter. What matters is that they're ****ty managers.

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You can make WIP missions that are only roughly balanced and then balance them well before shipping. Such detailed balance testing comes late in the development, when all the gameplay is pinned down. Not when the flight model is still evolving.

The flight model shouldn't be evolving at this point! Do you not get that? 3 years into development, and they've not managed to nail down the one single core mechanic they absolutely must nail? Hate to keep dragging up ED all the time, but they settled on their basic flight mechanics by this point in development. It's not that hard to do, if you're willing to do what game developers have always done and cheat. Roberts' insistence on physical realism is a boondoggle. Stuff like that gif Aesaar posted up there? Shouldn't ever happen. Would never have happened in a normal system (Or, at least, would have never happened outside a few amusing outtakes in a making-of somewhere).

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You know that in Freespace you can press one button (afterburner), and your ship goes from 0 to almost max speed in a fraction of a second? SC does not have anymore agile fighters than Freespace - Aurora or Hornet already handles well and they weigh exactly as they should. Only bigger ships are too agile, and fixing that requires a simple mass increase, not reworking a whole flight model. I dont know if you have noticed, but in SC all the bigger ships are very underweight, because someone early in development just made up their weights by comparing their lengths, while in reality weight scales with length cubed. This doesnt matter yet because masses of bigger ships will all be changed down the road during balancing anyway.

So they chose to go for physical realism, had to cheat to make it work, and then did so badly? Priceless, is what that is.

Quote
A new company, heavily modified game engine AND a full game? Or an established studio reusing a prior game engine? Game like SC is harder to make than Witcher 3 or Elite, so of course it is going to take longer. Around 5 years, Id say. Thats 2017-2018 release. You are just being impatient, IMHO.

Fun fact: Elite's COBRA engine has about the same level of customization that CIG did for CryEngine.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 14, 2015, 02:52:57 pm
Why should they waste time making 2 different engines, when PU engine needs to be made anyway? Just so they can release SQ42 sooner, at the cost of releasing PU even later? How would that be better? They would just waste development time for no good reason whatsoever. Squadron 42 is standalone because you play it separately from the PU, thats all. You are reading too much into what Sandy said if you think she meant something deeper than that. It is not standalone when it comes to engine and assets, it shares a ton of that with PU.
"How would releasing a game help with the perception that they're never going to release a game?"

Take your time figuring that one out.

Actually, let me walk you through it, since you obviously need the help: Nearly all of the things you need to get SQ42 done, you're going to need for the PU as well.  That ranges from core gameplay mechanics (like flight models, ship FPS, and customization), to a few civilian, military, and alien ship models.  So you get that done first.  Then you release act 1 of SQ42 as proof that, hey, we can actually make a fun game!  You perfect that, then you work on the **** you need for the PU, like netcode, economy, quests, star systems.  You start with a relatively modest, small-scale game that you can reliably deliver in a couple of years, then you move on to the big stuff.  If they'd done that, we'd be playing SQ42 by now, because SQ42 isn't that complex a game.  It should have come out long before what we see in 2.0.

Instead they're developing everything at once.  The PU isn't going to come any faster, since SQ42 work isn't wasted either way, but because of unnecessary PU ****, SQ42 is getting delayed just like all their tech demo modules.

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Have you even considered that they actually never thought the models meet the final standards (after all, they were pretty ugly), and planned from the start to iteratively improve them - improving them in multiple incremental passes over time, as the engine gains features and modelers gain experience with the workflow?
For this kind of development, there's no meaningful difference, except that your suggestion makes them look like morons.  And yeah, what The_E said.

Quote
You can make WIP missions that are only roughly balanced and then balance them well before shipping. Such detailed balance testing comes late in the development, when all the gameplay is pinned down. Not when the flight model is still evolving.
If you haven't figured out your core gameplay, you can storyboard missions.  That's pretty much the extent of what you can do.

Well, unless you're making a movie, in which case you can make nothing but 4 point patrols with 30 minutes of mocap cinematics in between.

But like The_E says, **** like the flight model and ship customization is at the very heart of the game.  They're the most important gameplay systems.  It should be pinned down by now.  It should have been pinned down last year.  They should absolutely be able to give very specific information about how you'll be able to customize your ship, not the same vague bull**** they were giving out 3 years ago.

The_E: they're 4 years into development. It started in December 2011, by CR's own admission.

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You know that in Freespace you can press one button (afterburner), and your ship goes from 0 to almost max speed in a fraction of a second? SC does not have anymore agile fighters than Freespace - Aurora or Hornet already handles well and they weigh exactly as they should. Only bigger ships are too agile, and fixing that requires a simple mass increase, not reworking a whole flight model. I dont know if you have noticed, but in SC all the bigger ships are very underweight, because someone early in development just made up their weights by comparing their lengths, while in reality weight scales with length cubed. This doesnt matter yet because masses of bigger ships will all be changed down the road during balancing anyway.
Key word here being afterburner.  And that's really something.  You're comparing SC ships to Freespace ones, and the only way Freespace ones feel comparable is if you bring up afterburner acceleration.  But yeah, you're right, SC ships feel like they have Freespace afterburners, except in every direction and not just when afterburning.  I'm glad we agree. 

Wow, that groundbreaking "realistic" flight model was really worth it.  I guess it's groundbreaking to make a really complex system so you don't have to cheat, but then end up needing to cheat and the results are worse than if you hadn't bothered at all.

Actually that summarizes a lot of things in SC.  Applies to their animation/headbobbing too.

Quote
A new company, heavily modified game engine AND a full game? Or an established studio reusing a prior game engine? Game like SC is harder to make than Witcher 3 or Elite, so of course it is going to take longer. Around 5 years, Id say. Thats 2017-2018 release. You are just being impatient, IMHO.
Right, those games had premade engines.  Unlike Cryengine.  CIG made that from scratch, right?

"Game like SC is harder to make than Witcher 3 or Elite" Er, why?  I mean, I can see why a game would be harder to make if your management is incompetent, but I don't think that's what you mean.

And CR has been harping on about his past games for the entire development.  You've pointed to them as well.  You don't get to say "I have faith in CR because of his past games" and then "CIG aren't an established studio, so that's why they should be measured by a different standard than everyone else".  Either they know what they're doing or they don't.  Pick one.

5 years is next year, not 2017-2018.  This game started development in December 2011.  If you want to claim development only began after the Kickstarter, then Elite Dangerous started development in December 2012.


But yeah, I guess I'm impatient.  Must have been spoiled by all those games that release within a few months of their projected release dates.  Good thing Chris Roberts is here to show me that real game development is all about missing deadlines, not pinning down core gameplay systems, and selling 400$ jpegs.  This must be what people mean when they talk about how revolutionary SC is.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on December 14, 2015, 03:06:49 pm
But seriously, if a tiny indie team with no funding can make this in 5 years, how has Star Citizen not made anything worth playing in 4 with $100 million and +210 people?

Because that tiny modding team used a functional, versatile engine and set out to combine two genres of gameplay in a limited scope, rather than trying to build the FIRST PERSON UNIVERSE in a shoddy tech demo hardcoded to make FPSes look pretty.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Sushi on December 14, 2015, 03:08:16 pm
But seriously, if a tiny indie team with no funding can make this in 5 years, how has Star Citizen not made anything worth playing in 4 with $100 million and +210 people?

Serious answer? Because the "scope of the game" to "time and money required" curve is exponential, not linear. :) SC's biggest asset AND curse is its breathtaking overambition in literally every aspect of its development. The fact that it's going way over time and budget is a natural and unsurprising consequence of it's scope.

Wow, that groundbreaking "realistic" flight model was really worth it.  I guess it's groundbreaking to make a really complex system so you don't have to cheat, but then end up needing to cheat and the results are worse than if you hadn't bothered at all.

Chris Roberts isn't the first to make that particular mistake, and he won't be the last. Unfortunately all to often between hubris and the "sunk cost" fallacy, the "crappy but non-cheaty" thing ends up staying even when it shouldn't. Somewhat ironically, Derek Smart is another legendary offender in this category.

Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Unknown Target on December 14, 2015, 03:19:21 pm
They should really have hired some industrial designers, or somebody who understands how physical objects work. From the very beginning, SC has been criticised for chunky ship design (a hallmark of Roberts' work if I do say so myself),  and it's kind of obvious that they don't really know how to design a ship  that really relates to the real world in any way. Couple that with a flight model that relies on actual physics to make the ships work well...how did they not think that they'd have to have a real understanding of physics to make it work?

Game artists in general don't typically know how to make real world things. Just interesting they didn't see the potential problem beforehand - maybe because they're so detached from the real world (in terms of mechanics) that they didn't even forsee the problem.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on December 14, 2015, 04:02:31 pm
They should really have hired some industrial designers, or somebody who understands how physical objects work. From the very beginning, SC has been criticised for chunky ship design (a hallmark of Roberts' work if I do say so myself),  and it's kind of obvious that they don't really know how to design a ship  that really relates to the real world in any way. Couple that with a flight model that relies on actual physics to make the ships work well...how did they not think that they'd have to have a real understanding of physics to make it work?

Game artists in general don't typically know how to make real world things. Just interesting they didn't see the potential problem beforehand - maybe because they're so detached from the real world (in terms of mechanics) that they didn't even forsee the problem.

To be fair, they did:
http://ryanchurch.com/
https://www.robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/12783-Introducing-The-RSI-Constellation-Mk3

Ryan Church did study industrial design and has worked extensively in both game and film. I've seen some his tutorial videos from gnomon workshop.

But he ultimately probably has Chris or some other person "signing off" on his concepts so his creative control is likely somewhat limited.

Incidentally, I doubt this guy is cheap

EDIT - I wonder if one of the big problems is that Rob Irving left. I mean he's the lead gameplay designer. Ditched the project to go make a Descent sequel. Having your lead gameplay designer leave the project can never be good for the production
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Mongoose on December 14, 2015, 08:38:55 pm
Comparing it to Minecraft is frankly misleading. For one thing, people who bought into Minecraft got the full game available at a cheaper price. Whereas Star Citizen requires you to pony up additional cash for all assets available in game. Their business model is more like Mechwarrior Online with its 300 dollar mechs than Minecraft with its 30 dollar everything. Except of course MWO was free to play. And yeah, allegedly these ships wont be available for purchase post-launch but frankly I doubt the truthfulness of that statement.  If these ships have proven to be a huge source of revenue then are they going to cut themselves off from that? Hell no.
The other reason that the Minecraft analogy breaks down is that even as far back as Infdef, and at the VERY least as far back as Alpha, Minecraft was essentially already a complete game.  The majority of its core mechanics were already settled, and indeed much of it plays similarly to the game today.  You had a bunch of block types you could build with, you had an (for all intents and purposes) infinite procedurally-generated world to roam around in, you had friendly and hostile mobs to interact with, you had the ability to craft items, it was all there.  Compared to that, SC has...what exactly?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on December 14, 2015, 08:59:10 pm
Comparing it to Minecraft is frankly misleading. For one thing, people who bought into Minecraft got the full game available at a cheaper price. Whereas Star Citizen requires you to pony up additional cash for all assets available in game. Their business model is more like Mechwarrior Online with its 300 dollar mechs than Minecraft with its 30 dollar everything. Except of course MWO was free to play. And yeah, allegedly these ships wont be available for purchase post-launch but frankly I doubt the truthfulness of that statement.  If these ships have proven to be a huge source of revenue then are they going to cut themselves off from that? Hell no.
The other reason that the Minecraft analogy breaks down is that even as far back as Infdef, and at the VERY least as far back as Alpha, Minecraft was essentially already a complete game.  The majority of its core mechanics were already settled, and indeed much of it plays similarly to the game today.  You had a bunch of block types you could build with, you had an (for all intents and purposes) infinite procedurally-generated world to roam around in, you had friendly and hostile mobs to interact with, you had the ability to craft items, it was all there.  Compared to that, SC has...what exactly?

Well, it was a "game" in the minecraft sense of being a "game". Some might argue that minecraft isn't even a game just a sandbox to fart around in.  The actual "end game" with the Nether and the end was added later.
But you're correct in saying that most of the mechanics were already established. Crafting is much the same as is resource collection and basic rules of the world with regards to monsters and so forth. Some additional things have changed like enchanting and the addition of more mechanics.

Hell even the graphics are pretty much the same. Got it one! They just changed the damn gravel.

But yeah, if Minecraft were Star Citizen well, then the initial "game" would be you running around hitting other players with wooden swords.  But some people will have paid an extra 50 dollars for a bow, and some others paid an extra 300 dollars for leather armour and an iron sword. And some real nutters will have ponied up 900 cash for diamond gear, which is not yet in the game but will be soon. But there'd be no crafting, no terrain generation, maybe just a pre-generated house where you could place 30-dollar plant pots before you stepped out and hit another guy with a stick.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 16, 2015, 03:48:44 am
The_E: they're 4 years into development. It started in December 2011, by CR's own admission.

According to this logic, Elite: Dangerous is in development from 2001. Thats where the studio first announced they have some people working on Elite 4, lol.

There is a difference between "development" when just a handful of people are working on a nice trailer, and proper development of an AAA game with dozens of devs working on the game full time. SC may have been technically in development from 2011, but proper development did not start until somewhere in 2013, when actual studios with dozens of people working full time on the game were established. That is around 2 and a half years ago. As I said, while Star Citizen is a bit late, you are also being impatient. 2017-2018 is a deadline when if based Chris does not deliver, I will begin to seriously doubt his ability to do so. But not before, it is too soon to judge.

Quote
maslow, how much have you spent on SC so far?

53 dollars.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Kszyhu on December 16, 2015, 04:53:02 am
Bad news for anyone still hoping for a refund: https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/3wzwwy/cig_denies_refund_and_claim_that_a_substantial/
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: The E on December 16, 2015, 05:17:55 am
Oh god that's hilarious.

So according to that, they've been working on the game for 3 years.

More choice quotes:
"A substantive part of the planned gameplay is now available".
"[...] we feel the results, such as unparalleled immersion and fidelity, are already speaking for themselves!"

Such fidelity.

(http://www.ultraimg.com/images/v9EZZN.gif)

Such immersion.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 16, 2015, 06:10:41 am
The_E: they're 4 years into development. It started in December 2011, by CR's own admission.

According to this logic, Elite: Dangerous is in development from 2001. Thats where the studio first announced they have some people working on Elite 4, lol.

There is a difference between "development" when just a handful of people are working on a nice trailer, and proper development of an AAA game with dozens of devs working on the game full time. SC may have been technically in development from 2011, but proper development did not start until somewhere in 2013, when actual studios with dozens of people working full time on the game were established. That is around 2 and a half years ago. As I said, while Star Citizen is a bit late, you are also being impatient. 2017-2018 is a deadline when if based Chris does not deliver, I will begin to seriously doubt his ability to do so. But not before, it is too soon to judge.
So you're ok with saying E:D started 'real' development in 2012?  Because they've got much, much more to show for 3 years of work than SC does.

Also, 'real' development started 2.5 years ago now?  lol.  You people just can't stop moving the goalposts, can you?  You know, if you constantly need to make revisions like that to make this game's development seem reasonable, you've already lost.

And no, I'm not being impatient.  I expect a game sold as a Nov. 2014 release to be released within a year of that date.  You can point to "increased scope" all you want, but that doesn't apply to SQ42 (as much as you'd like it to).  Hell, the scope of SQ42 is actually smaller than it was, since they cut drop-in drop-out co-op.

I'm sorry you're so devoted to this cult that you think holding a developer accountable for their own statements is being impatient.  It's very sad.

But yeah, I guess I'm impatient.  Must have been spoiled by all those games that release within a few months of their projected release dates.  Good thing Chris Roberts is here to show me that real game development is all about missing deadlines, not pinning down core gameplay systems, and selling 400$ jpegs.  This must be what people mean when they talk about how revolutionary SC is.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 16, 2015, 10:32:00 am
So you're ok with saying E:D started 'real' development in 2012?

Yeah, it is plausible.

Because they've got much, much more to show for 3 years of work than SC does.

Nah. Elite is a much simpler game than SC. For one thing, you are glued to your seat. And all of the aspects of E:D are quite simplistic. This is not just my opinion, it is the prevailing opinion of the playerbase. The common saying to describe E:D is "mile wide, inch deep".

https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/comments/3v0j18/ed_needs_more_depth_not_breadth/

E:D is not a bad game at all, but lets just say that I would be very disappointed if Star Citizen was released but resembled something like Elite: Dangerous. If I had to choose between a simple SC that is already released, and complex SC that takes its time to develop, I choose the latter. People did not pledge >$100 million to get yet another ordinary space sim. And if there is one thing money cannot buy easily, it is faster development. Nine women wont make a kid in one month.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 16, 2015, 10:50:32 am
Holiday livestream starts in 3 hours.

twitch.tv/starcitizen
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: General Battuta on December 16, 2015, 10:51:16 am
ED has all its systems in place to create depth. It's a stable (and hopefully profitable) system to build on.

SC's design methodology is to iterate over and over on every level, with high-end changes rendering low-end content worthless. It's like building a pyramid on quicksand.

Having worked in both types of dev environments, one a very big-budget project, I know which one works better. Even if SC ends up succeeding, it will be a lesser success than it could've been with a well managed dev cycle.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Kszyhu on December 16, 2015, 11:28:17 am
Is there a point in arguing about differences in depth, when SC 2.0 is nothing more than a tech demo of localized physics grids and large world with some placeholder missions? There is no guarantee that Star Citizen won't be as shallow, or even more so, than E:D, even with more development time and bigger budget.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Bryan See on December 16, 2015, 12:32:04 pm
I hope he doesn't when Star Citizen is released.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 16, 2015, 01:10:32 pm
Nah. Elite is a much simpler game than SC. For one thing, you are glued to your seat. And all of the aspects of E:D are quite simplistic. This is not just my opinion, it is the prevailing opinion of the playerbase. The common saying to describe E:D is "mile wide, inch deep".
No, at this moment, E:D is a simpler game than what SC wants to be.  There's a difference.  You're comparing an actual game that exists to a dream (a common thing citizens do when talking about E:D).  There is absolutely no guarantee that SC will deliver on that dream, and it most certainly hasn't done so yet.  What E:D is right now is a far, far more complete and elaborate game than what SC is right now.  This is not debatable.  It isn't opinion.  If you think otherwise you are utterly delusional and there's no more point arguing with you than there would be arguing with a young-earth creationist.

E:D is an actual game.  Maybe a bit bare, but it's a very solid framework onto which they can add content fairly easily.  SC is a tech demo.  They can't add content to it yet because most of their gameplay systems aren't even finished.  This includes hugely important core ones.

Quote
E:D is not a bad game at all, but lets just say that I would be very disappointed if Star Citizen was released but resembled something like Elite: Dangerous. If I had to choose between a simple SC that is already released, and complex SC that takes its time to develop, I choose the latter. People did not pledge >$100 million to get yet another ordinary space sim. And if there is one thing money cannot buy easily, it is faster development. Nine women wont make a kid in one month.
I really wouldn't be surprised if E:D incorporates this (https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/comments/33rynu/the_future_of_elite_dangerous_extravehicular/) before SC releases.  What you really don't seem to get is that E:D is a lot closer to achieving the SC dream than SC itself is.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on December 16, 2015, 01:37:28 pm
So that holiday stream coincided with another ship sale? Some 2-3 weeks after the last sale? And by sale I mean 1250-2500 USD a pop.
Limited quantities, limited time. Honestly seems a little disgusting. 

Though this seems to be the season where every webpage is begging for money, whether it be wikipedia. mozilla, boardgamegeek, etcetera.

Derek Smart put up a new blog but it's password locked, dunno why.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Kszyhu on December 16, 2015, 01:40:50 pm
I really wouldn't be surprised if E:D incorporates this (https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/comments/33rynu/the_future_of_elite_dangerous_extravehicular/) before SC releases.  What you really don't seem to get is that E:D is a lot closer to achieving the SC dream than SC itself is.

I wouldn't be so sure of that. EVA/SpaceLegs are at least a year out, as the content of Horizons is broadly known and doesn't contain it. Multicrew is supposed to be in, though with no ability to walk around or go outside and breath in space air. SC has EVA already, although in non-persistent world.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 16, 2015, 01:43:07 pm
I really wouldn't be surprised if E:D incorporates this (https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/comments/33rynu/the_future_of_elite_dangerous_extravehicular/) before SC releases.  What you really don't seem to get is that E:D is a lot closer to achieving the SC dream than SC itself is.

I wouldn't be so sure of that. EVA/SpaceLegs are at least a year out, as the content of Horizons is broadly known and doesn't contain it. Multicrew is supposed to be in, though with no ability to walk around or go outside and breath in space air. SC has EVA already, although in non-persistent world.
Star Citizen is almost certainly more than a year out.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Kszyhu on December 16, 2015, 01:53:40 pm
True, though I expect SQ42 to be released in 2016, no matter the quality. It won't be a MMO, but it should resemble a finished game (with terrible writing, if Wing Commander movie is an indication of Roberts' storytelling abilities).
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Lorric on December 16, 2015, 01:59:53 pm
Arguing SC depth vs E:D depth would only be fair if you argued what SC aspires to be vs what E:D aspires to be. Elite: Dangerous is not finished. Though you'll have to pay extra to add on the extra things as they are released, some things are free content, some things are paid expansions. They just released Horizons. But I imagine one day there'll be an Elite: Dangerous Complete Edition available to buy if all goes to plan for them, which will also probably be a lot cheaper than buying everything as it comes out. It's also probably impossible to argue for what Elite: Dangerous' ultimate aspirations are, as they are deliberately keeping it quiet. We don't know what role such things as alien races and the blocked off systems will play in the future.

In terms of what each game is right now, it's no contest. It's kind of like imagining there are two mansions being built, one is fit to live in and has plenty of rooms complete and ready for use as the building work on the rest of the mansion continues smoothly on schedule, while the other is barely fit to live in never mind do anything else in and the building work has been beset by numerous delays and problems.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: StarSlayer on December 16, 2015, 02:06:20 pm
End of the fiscal year, everybody needs to make the extra monies so the books look good and hopefully in the black.

So long as E:D is making money to support keeping devs in seats, it can keep expanding and delivering more content which will in turn keep consumers playing and investing.  SC so far is dependent on folks throwing money at a project that like it or not has engendered a lot of skepticism.  In the long run regular stable deliverables will keep that revenue stream alive and vigorous compared to promises and JPEGs.  Not to mention if both projects fail at least with E:D you actually have something in hand for your money.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: General Battuta on December 16, 2015, 03:12:05 pm
ED is in my favorite phase of game development, the phase in which thousands of players are in a live environment and the devs can actually iterate design based on the behavior of actual players.

SC seems determined to build massive vertical 'slices' (more like pits) and ram them out into the world without any mass-scale testing in the caustic bath of network issues, abusive goons, and easily bored casuals who don't have any interest in enhancing their immersion by cleaning up coffee cup rings and physically simulated lines of coke on the couches of a $20,000 preordered starliner.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Kszyhu on December 16, 2015, 03:42:55 pm
I think there's a downside to E:D's situation though. All deficiencies are plainly visible, and there is a fair amount of criticism, at least some of it valid, IMO. After all, unfavourable reviews won't go away even if/when the game improves. Oh, and BTW, CIG announced some kind of planetary landings on procedurally generated planets. What a coincidence...
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Axem on December 16, 2015, 03:56:20 pm
easily bored casuals who don't have any interest in enhancing their immersion by cleaning up coffee cup rings and physically simulated lines of cokes on the couches of a $20,000 preordered starliner.

Hey bro,

first

its only a $19,990 starliner (personalized invite referral pricing, pleb)

second

that coke line engine has been in the works for years. They could've just taken the same bored and limited middleware that GTA V did, but CIG built their custom drug consumption engine from the ground up, to ensure that the immersion from doing coke off of a 500,000 poly per cushion PBR couches with real time memory foam deformation and modeled thread seams is done the right and immersive way.

(btw who wants to join my tony montana clan)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 16, 2015, 04:20:58 pm
I think there's a downside to E:D's situation though. All deficiencies are plainly visible, and there is a fair amount of criticism, at least some of it valid, IMO. After all, unfavourable reviews won't go away even if/when the game improves. Oh, and BTW, CIG announced some kind of planetary landings on procedurally generated planets. What a coincidence...

Yup. Trailer:

Gameplay:
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 16, 2015, 04:55:10 pm
I think there's a downside to E:D's situation though. All deficiencies are plainly visible, and there is a fair amount of criticism, at least some of it valid, IMO. After all, unfavourable reviews won't go away even if/when the game improves. Oh, and BTW, CIG announced some kind of planetary landings on procedurally generated planets. What a coincidence...

Yup. Trailer:

Gameplay:

I can do that in E:D right now.

The_E literally yesterday:

(http://i.imgur.com/pdn7vRB.png)

Seriously, I think the only place SC is ahead of E:D is in letting you control your character.  Hell, E:D, in spite of having you character glued to the ship seat, has a better looking character model than SC does.  Even lets you pick your pilot's gender.  SC's still a sausagefest two years after the hangar release.  Though I suppose that doesn't matter since the community and moderation team managed to drive a lot of women away by being insanely ****ty (not a joke (https://www.themittani.com/news/sc-user-banned-over-proposing-female-social-group)).

And even if this wasn't the case, CIG's problem isn't that they can't deliver shiny videos and images.  They're pretty good at doing that.  Their problems are with actually making a playable, stable, fun game that delivers on the promises those videos make.


Also, kinda funny:

Quote from: Chris Roberts, 12/16/15
[My game] has the most awkward, ugly, unusable interface I've ever seen.

Glad he finally noticed.  His insanely awkward and frustrated attempts to play his own game were easily the best part of the stream.


I think there's a downside to E:D's situation though. All deficiencies are plainly visible, and there is a fair amount of criticism, at least some of it valid, IMO. After all, unfavourable reviews won't go away even if/when the game improves. Oh, and BTW, CIG announced some kind of planetary landings on procedurally generated planets. What a coincidence...
This is very true.  Because E:D is a game, it gets judged as the imperfect game it is.  It can't hide behind "it's an alpha".  SC is a dream, and it gets judged as the perfect game the backers imagine it'll be, not as what it is.  You can see maslo doing this with every post he makes. 

This is why CIG delivering stuff is actually kinda risky for them.  The more the game takes shape, the harder it gets for backers to reconcile that shape with their dreams.  Example: People are already getting very, very angry about "griefing" (basically others doing anything they don't like, including shooting at them).  How pissed are they going to be if CIG says the "griefers" aren't doing anything wrong?


It's also very funny that CR is so desperately trying to one-up Braben.  It's so predictable the SA thread called this a week ago.

Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Sushi on December 16, 2015, 05:03:44 pm
The part of the second video that made me most jealous (from an E:D player perspective) was the seamless quantum jump to the station (around 0:20-0:33). Really tired of the drop-from-supercruise transition and the teleport-popping and freezing that comes with it.

The rest looked almost *exactly* like what I was playing last night. The base was a different design, and there was no atmospheric eyecandy, but otherwise yeah, you can do that in Elite right now.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Kszyhu on December 16, 2015, 05:21:18 pm
I'm not sure how much of this freeze can be removed, tbh. I have seen some improvements since Horizons, but it's still noticeable. SC can load all the data during the jump animation, and there's no need to establish the connection "on the fly". SC alpha, as well as other offline tech demos, has no problem with that because of everyone (16 people for now) being connected to the same server at the startup. I wonder how it will change in real-life conditions.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on December 16, 2015, 06:24:51 pm
Can you land anywhere on those planets or only at bases?

I also find it interesting that immediately outside the landing area, the planet loses definition. It goes from fairly detailed rocky area to basically rolling amorphous hills. the landing area is rocky and jagged, the area surrounding is all rounded as if by water erosion.

 So is it a procedural planet with a hand-built landing location? The planet just window dressing for the park? Or can you land anywhere you want and get out? What happens if you land, get in another guy's ship and take off? Does your ship get swallowed by the lesser LODs?

Also, kinda funny:

Quote from: Chris Roberts, 12/16/15
[My game] has the most awkward, ugly, unusable interface I've ever seen.

Glad he finally noticed.  His insanely awkward and frustrated attempts to play his own game were easily the best part of the stream.


Also kind of deliberately dishonest, since he wasn't talking about the interface in general but specifically the chat interface.


Though nice gameplay demo huh?
First he had problems launching the game. Then he ran around the station for 10 minutes. Then he got in his fighter, and his joystick didn't work so switched to a gamepad. Then he jumped to another system and the game crashed. Bravo.

Also why is there sound in space? Doesn't the game use muffled, BSG-style gunshots? Or am I wrong? Yet when he was on the deck of the station, he could hear his ship's ladder extending and so forth. Personally if its' going for realism then a BSG-style sound makes the most sense but whatever.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on December 16, 2015, 08:07:30 pm
If Elite's a mile wide and an inch deep, Star Citizen's Nemo (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemo_33).
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Ghostavo on December 16, 2015, 10:00:06 pm
Awkward moment is awkward. (https://twitter.com/istheguy/status/677322882096189440)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on December 16, 2015, 10:13:22 pm
You can watch him playing the whole bit here at 2hours and 10 minutes. Doesn't seem to allow time markers in this forum
the rest:
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 17, 2015, 12:32:03 am
Though I suppose that doesn't matter since the community and moderation team managed to drive a lot of women away by being insanely ****ty (not a joke (https://www.themittani.com/news/sc-user-banned-over-proposing-female-social-group)).

Are you reading the same article as I am?

Quote
Lesnick took the time to point out he has no reason to believe Lauresh was banned simply for being a woman, but it was due to the numerous flagging with profane messages such as "mother ****ing troll" and "stop this person from ****ting up the thread already." The steps the moderator took that were improper were, as previously stated, giving a week long ban over the 24 hour ban due to CIG striking a previous ban from Lauresh. According to Lesnick's post, the thread also should not have been closed due to the lack of "toxic behavior" that the original post and intent held.

Boo hoo, a Goon troll got treated as the troll he is. Cry me a river. Women only group will be allowed, despite it being a little controversial. Star Citizen is welcoming to women and minorities.  :yes: But not to Goon trolls.

It's also very funny that CR is so desperately trying to one-up Braben.  It's so predictable the SA thread called this a week ago.

It was known for much longer than a week that procedural generation demo is coming, doesnt take a genius to figure it out.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: The E on December 17, 2015, 01:40:20 am
Can you land anywhere on those planets or only at bases?

I also find it interesting that immediately outside the landing area, the planet loses definition. It goes from fairly detailed rocky area to basically rolling amorphous hills. the landing area is rocky and jagged, the area surrounding is all rounded as if by water erosion.

 So is it a procedural planet with a hand-built landing location? The planet just window dressing for the park? Or can you land anywhere you want and get out? What happens if you land, get in another guy's ship and take off? Does your ship get swallowed by the lesser LODs?

In Elite, you can land anywhere on a planet. There usually are a few marked points of interest on the surface, which are then represented by stations with procedurally generated layouts. The environment has the same level of detail throughout.
And no, you can't enter another player's ship. They were planning to enable that sort of piracy at some point, but nothing's happened with it yet and it doesn't seem to be a planned feature for Horizons.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 17, 2015, 02:36:43 am
Did you notice how it sounds like this was CR's first time playing his own tech demo?


Boo hoo, a Goon troll got treated as the troll he is. Cry me a river. Women only group will be allowed, despite it being a little controversial. Star Citizen is welcoming to women and minorities.  :yes: But not to Goon trolls.
Lol you're actually buying Ben's "but goons!" excuse.  It wasn't the fault of his moderation team, it was all the fault of the goons!  You are the perfect Ur-citizen.

It's typical SC logic: community gets angry at the idea of a women's group in SC and turns the thread toxic, ban the OP.  When called out, blame goons.  Anything to avoid admitting that maybe his moderation team is ****ty and anything to avoid punishing the people actually at fault.  And here's you lapping that up because you don't want to admit that there's any aspect of this game that isn't the best thing ever.

Same sort of thinking saw a woman banned from CitCon because she reported getting sent a dick pic from one of SC's $25k backers (that being Accelerwraith).

And I like that this is the only thing you responded to out of that post.  So you agree with everything else?


Unrelated:

(http://i.imgur.com/FGof4QD.jpg)

https://www.restorationhardware.com/catalog/product/product.jsp?productId=prod80301&categoryId=cat3910198

https://www.restorationhardware.com/catalog/product/product.jsp?productId=prod3070163&categoryId=cat3250024

https://www.restorationhardware.com/catalog/product/product.jsp?productId=prod280189&categoryId=cat1676047

Now that's a responsible use of backer funds right there.  Potentially 4000$ for three pieces of office furniture.

I wonder what they've spent there in total.  More of that **** turns up in every single picture or video they take of their offices.  It's like that $20k coffee machine they bought.


Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Mikes on December 17, 2015, 11:52:21 am
Did you notice how it sounds like this was CR's first time playing his own tech demo?


Boo hoo, a Goon troll got treated as the troll he is. Cry me a river. Women only group will be allowed, despite it being a little controversial. Star Citizen is welcoming to women and minorities.  :yes: But not to Goon trolls.
Lol you're actually buying Ben's "but goons!" excuse.  It wasn't the fault of his moderation team, it was all the fault of the goons!  You are the perfect Ur-citizen.

It's typical SC logic: community gets angry at the idea of a women's group in SC and turns the thread toxic, ban the OP.  When called out, blame goons.  Anything to avoid admitting that maybe his moderation team is ****ty and anything to avoid punishing the people actually at fault.  And here's you lapping that up because you don't want to admit that there's any aspect of this game that isn't the best thing ever.

Same sort of thinking saw a woman banned from CitCon because she reported getting sent a dick pic from one of SC's $25k backers (that being Accelerwraith).

And I like that this is the only thing you responded to out of that post.  So you agree with everything else?


Unrelated:

(http://i.imgur.com/FGof4QD.jpg)

https://www.restorationhardware.com/catalog/product/product.jsp?productId=prod80301&categoryId=cat3910198

https://www.restorationhardware.com/catalog/product/product.jsp?productId=prod3070163&categoryId=cat3250024

https://www.restorationhardware.com/catalog/product/product.jsp?productId=prod280189&categoryId=cat1676047

Now that's a responsible use of backer funds right there.  Potentially 4000$ for three pieces of office furniture.

I wonder what they've spent there in total.  More of that **** turns up in every single picture or video they take of their offices.  It's like that $20k coffee machine they bought.





So what have you bought lately and when can we accuse your employer of irresponsible use of funds because of what you bought with your salary?

Hey. .. not saying it isn t exactly as you say ... but on the other hand, you are jumping to conclusions without having a clue, so who knows? ;-)


But it's sure an interesting PR problem for large companies based on kickstarter... i.e. what salary do you actually allow yourself? Or do backers suppose that people working on their project don't get paid a dime until release? Or may not buy anything beyond basic neccessities and food? ;-)


Kinda a huge can of worms that you open with simple accusations like that. /shrugs.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on December 17, 2015, 12:03:44 pm
Yeah it's expensive furniture, but is this furniture typical of the studio or is it just hand-picked for this area to be film-able?  They've obviously trying really hard to make this room "cool" but I wouldn't be surprised if most of their studio was decorated with ikea desks.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 17, 2015, 12:11:21 pm
So what have you bought lately and when can we accuse your employer of irresponsible use of funds because of what you bought with your salary?

Hey. .. not saying it isn t exactly as you say ... but on the other hand, you are jumping to conclusions without having a clue, so who knows? ;-)
I think there's a difference between spending your personal money on things, and spending money people gave you to make a game on a $2000 desk when you could have bought a perfectly serviceable one at Ikea for $150.  If you don't see a difference there, that's your problem, not mine.

And show me where I "jump to conclusions without having a clue".

Yeah it's expensive furniture, but is this furniture typical of the studio or is it just hand-picked for this area to be film-able?  They've obviously trying really hard to make this room "cool" but I wouldn't be surprised if most of their studio was decorated with ikea desks.
A month or so ago they showed pictures of their new Santa Monica studio and the tables in the main work area were bought off that website.  I'm combing the SA thread for the picture in question, but it's 800 pages long so bear with me.

There's also that $20k coffee machine they bought.

EDIT: here we go:

(http://i.imgur.com/NLQmuZs.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/dQkIYEt.jpg)

https://www.restorationhardware.com/catalog/product/product.jsp?productId=prod2710129&categoryId=cat1676047

So yeah, pretty sure it's furniture typical of their studio.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Bryan See on December 17, 2015, 12:44:07 pm
Yeah it's expensive furniture, but is this furniture typical of the studio or is it just hand-picked for this area to be film-able?  They've obviously trying really hard to make this room "cool" but I wouldn't be surprised if most of their studio was decorated with ikea desks.
A month or so ago they showed pictures of their new Santa Monica studio and the tables in the main work area were bought off that website.  I'm combing the SA thread for the picture in question, but it's 800 pages long so bear with me.

There's also that $20k coffee machine they bought.

EDIT: here we go:

(http://i.imgur.com/NLQmuZs.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/dQkIYEt.jpg)

https://www.restorationhardware.com/catalog/product/product.jsp?productId=prod2710129&categoryId=cat1676047

So yeah, pretty sure it's furniture typical of their studio.
This is going to be not only the UAV/Aeronautics lab here in UPM Serdang, but also the game development studio for my forthcoming project following the FreeSpace 2 Open-based Shattered Stars.

EDIT: When I'm referring to that project, it's going to be a response to Star Citizen, Elite Dangerous and No Man's Land.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on December 17, 2015, 12:50:16 pm
*No Man's Sky

But yeah those tables look similar to a 500 dollar one on that website. 3 grand in tables sitting right there.
A far cry from one of the studios I worked at where I was stuck at 10-dollar ikea desks.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 17, 2015, 01:34:34 pm
Lol you're actually buying Ben's "but goons!" excuse.  It wasn't the fault of his moderation team, it was all the fault of the goons!  You are the perfect Ur-citizen.

It's typical SC logic: community gets angry at the idea of a women's group in SC and turns the thread toxic, ban the OP.  When called out, blame goons.  Anything to avoid admitting that maybe his moderation team is ****ty and anything to avoid punishing the people actually at fault.  And here's you lapping that up because you don't want to admit that there's any aspect of this game that isn't the best thing ever.

Same sort of thinking saw a woman banned from CitCon because she reported getting sent a dick pic from one of SC's $25k backers (that being Accelerwraith).

Did you ignore those vulgar messages the troll sent to the moderators? He deserves one day ban for that alone. Normal well meaning community members certainly do not act that way. It was obviously an attempt to stir up trouble, and it has Goon methods written all over it. So forgive me for calling spade a spade. Here, let me paste it again:

Quote
Let me stress right now: I do not believe anyone on the moderation team banned Lauresh because they are a woman. I am 100% confident that it was because of the 30+ flags complaining about other users in the thread, with profane messages attached: “****ing ban this retard,” “for the love of god would someone please stop this person from ****ting up the thread already,” “mother ****ing trolling” and so on. Lauresh seems to have flagged not only sexist posts (which should be warned/probated) but also anything complaining that the thread was a setup (‘you’re a Goon, you just want to fight, etc.’)

https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/comment/2421310/#Comment_2421310


Source for the dick pic accusation? I havent heard about that one... Do you have some evidence or is it just Derek Smart tier hearsay yet again?

And I like that this is the only thing you responded to out of that post.  So you agree with everything else?

I do agree that Chris attempt to play his own game was a bit cringeworthy. For example, I find the chat window perfectly usable, however I know it is turned off by pressing Enter key. It seems like Chris was unaware of that, hence his frustration with the interface. Unless it was a bug or an unfamiliar setup..


Anyway, here is what David Braben of Elite fame said about Star Citizen:

Quote
Landing on planets seems to be ‘the new black’ as they might say in marketing circles… You can do it now anywhere on the surface of countless 1:1 scale simulated planetary surfaces in Elite Dangerous: Horizons and landing is coming in the future in No Man’s Sky, Star Citizen (as I heard just now – a major new future feature they announced last night), Infinity: Battlescape and many others. This is a great thing, as open world space games have now truly come back with a bang, and I look forwards to playing them – and also huge congratulations to Chris and the team for raising $100M for Star Citizen!

What both Star Citizen and Elite Dangerous are trying to do is very hard indeed. Both games are incredibly ambitious. I am proud and excited about what we are doing, but what they are doing is ambitious too, and I am looking forward to playing Star Citizen when it is finished. What we are both doing is new; we are trailblazing. The scope of both is vast and quite different, and neither have been done before, so there is no right answer for either of the approaches. It is frustrating to see some of the criticism of Star Citizen online. We should applaud when someone tries something that is hard, that hasn’t been done, not discourage them.

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?p=3278592#post3278592

Indeed, it is frustrating to see some of the toxic nitpicking that Star Citizen is the subject of by the detractors of our based Chris. As I said many times, it is too early to judge..  :yes: We are trailblazing.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Scotty on December 17, 2015, 01:38:04 pm
Star Citizen is doing a very good job of trailblazing its way right into the ground, yes.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: General Battuta on December 17, 2015, 01:47:55 pm
The biggest thing I took away from working in the games industry is how easy it is to conceal toxic politics, rampant mismanagement, and total creative confusion from anyone outside the studio.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on December 17, 2015, 01:58:20 pm
Indeed, it is frustrating to see some of the toxic nitpicking that Star Citizen is the subject of by the detractors of our based Chris. As I said many times, it is too early to judge..  :yes: We are trailblazing.

It works both ways. People are nitpicking sure, but supporters of the game aren't viewing it with a critical eye either.
If I was an actual supporter of the game I would find that live demo of the game an embarrassment. Then weren't set up to run the game and when the game did get started Chris didn't seem to be enjoying it and the game crashed right away.  Can't they get a stable build for the demo?

And really, what is more important than the demonstration of actual gameplay?  Nothing.

As someone who plays games, when I see a demo, I want to see the actual game being played. This is true in trailers and livestreams and whatever else. Star Citizen live-streams on the other hand seem to be focused on two things,  showing off ship models,  and showing off actors.  If I all wanted to see was drawings of ships I would just head to deviant art or conceptships blog and see a ****ton in about 5 minutes.

Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 17, 2015, 02:19:34 pm
Did you ignore those vulgar messages the troll sent to the moderators? He deserves one day ban for that alone. Normal well meaning community members certainly do not act that way. It was obviously an attempt to stir up trouble, and it has Goon methods written all over it. So forgive me for calling spade a spade. Here, let me paste it again:

Quote
Let me stress right now: I do not believe anyone on the moderation team banned Lauresh because they are a woman. I am 100% confident that it was because of the 30+ flags complaining about other users in the thread, with profane messages attached: “****ing ban this retard,” “for the love of god would someone please stop this person from ****ting up the thread already,” “mother ****ing trolling” and so on. Lauresh seems to have flagged not only sexist posts (which should be warned/probated) but also anything complaining that the thread was a setup (‘you’re a Goon, you just want to fight, etc.’)

https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/comment/2421310/#Comment_2421310
So yeah, reporting sexist and ****ty comments?  Ban that troll.  Making sexist and ****ty comments?  No problem.  Can't allow those goons to ruin our fun by calling out sexism.

Yeah, that's truly excellent moderation.

Are you really this broken?


SC has the single worst community I've ever seen, and that's overwhelmingly because Ben fostered that environment through incredibly ****ty moderation policies, and it's only gotten worse over time.  He's a horrible community manager.


Quote
Source for the dick pic accusation? I havent heard about that one... Do you have some evidence or is it just Derek Smart tier hearsay yet again?
The victim posted in the SA thread a few months back.  Had screenshots of the email and a really creepy RSI chat conversation she had with the guy.  This was two threads ago so I'm not going to spend hours digging it up.  Believe me or don't.  I don't much care.  You'd try and rationalize it away even if I did.


Unrelated: Good post on the Frontier forums about planetary landings and graphics:
Quote from: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=203785&page=96&p=3274872#post3274872

Quote
Already blows ED out of the water technically but the big difference is it isn't live and playable yet.
ED need to up their game though because that is truly seamless and the planet had an atmosphere, albeit no weather, and the fidelity was much higher already and it is only in the early stages.

No.

An atmospheric scattering effect isn't such a big deal nor the big challenge in doing PG planets. Pretty much every PG planet demo on youtube has it including all the small one man teams playing around with it from their "bedrooms". If anything atmospheric scattering can be used to hide and fade away terrain while being "shiny" and "earthlike" which seems to fool a lot of people into thinking "better". Same thing with the Inovae Engine.

Case in point.

With scattering in Outterra:
http://i.imgur.com/EEf9PiLl.png

With scattering turned off:
http://i.imgur.com/fuO4oEyl.png

Showing the planet "naked" and without that "shiny effect" is a much bigger challenge while also making it look good. Something that ED have accomplished. As soon as they start to add these kind of things on top of what they have peoples perception of the quality will go through the roof IMO. Hopefully this video from SC might actually speed up the process of getting there sooner in ED.

The "fidelity" in the Star Citizen demo was actually nowhere near what can currently be seen in ED in regards to the PG terrain. Especially in terms of believable large scale features. What was shown was some rather generic noise algorithms applied pretty evenly across the entire surface of the planet as a heightmap. If they would remove the atmosphere layer and show that planet in full sunlight it would basically look like this currently...

http://i.imgur.com/KjgmKp3l.png

Now compare that to this in ED:
http://www.elitegalaxy.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/EliteDangerous64-2015-12-09-03-13-27-940x500.png

Which is why we are only shown the nightside of the planet from afar at the moment.

The fidelity in the custom made terrain around the base was higher of course, due to it being handmade, but all of the PG terrain around it was very simple compared to even many one man team efforts that have shown of videos on youtube. The terrain tech in SC will without question improve though and I look forward to seeing where it goes, but it's not like FD is gonna sit around on their hands doing nothing either.

EDs engine is just as seamless when just moving around in the engine. The difference is that in-game in ED we also have the network layer on top. How seamless SC will be while connecting to other players inside the real game instead of a tech demo like this is yet to be seen. However...there is a possibility that it might actually feel more seamless depending on how the split up them map of the star system. If the connection to the other players happens when using quantum drive to approach "orbit" as shown in the video and you already at that stage gets connected to the people down on the ground then it will be more seamless since no switch will be needed while going down. The downside is that orbit (including the station shown) and the planet itself will share an instance thus spreading out people over a much bigger area. Another downside according to my book is the uncontrollable quantum drive when moving big distances in space. I personally prefer the manual control EDs super cruise gives us.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Hades on December 17, 2015, 02:45:51 pm
Boo hoo, a Goon troll got treated as the troll he is. Cry me a river. Women only group will be allowed, despite it being a little controversial. Star Citizen is welcoming to women and minorities.  :yes: But not to Goon trolls.
Please point to where on the doll Goons touched your EVE spaceship
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on December 17, 2015, 03:46:05 pm
who the **** actually cares how much their tables cost? it's a tiny tiny tiny fraction of their expenses and it's dangerously far into 'your crowdfunded game must be completed in squalour' levels of righteousness
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 17, 2015, 03:50:20 pm
Paying $2000 for a desk is funny.  I mean, it's smarter than spending $2500 for a jpeg, but it's still pretty dumb.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: General Battuta on December 17, 2015, 03:52:52 pm
I want to put my predictions down on paper:

Assuming the company doesn't collapse due to mismanagement, Star Citizen will be

—A released, open world, first person space sim/FPS
—Closer to the pessimist' predictions than the optimists
—Playable and largely good-looking
—A complete technical and design cluster****, with major rollbacks in the simulationist philosophy to make an actual game
—Most closely comparable to PlanetSide 2, in that it will be an ambitious concept plagued by technical difficulties, bad balance, and an inability to find actual fun in the huge gamescape
—Comparable to EVE Online in the punishing complexity/confusion of its metagame and the toxicity of its forums
—Comparable to Freelancer in the number of features cut or disabled
—Littered with abandoned features, broken preorder promises, and drama about who has 'earned' special in-game treatment via backing
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Sushi on December 17, 2015, 04:33:38 pm
In my mind SC is sort of a prototype platform for the next generation of space sim games. Even if it doesn't turn out great in and of itself, hopefully it will help advance space sim technology.

In other words, even if they don't get it right, I'm hoping someone else will be able to learn from their experience, both successes and failures. It's like the worlds largest crowdfunded gaming research project.

As I've mentioned before: I don't like their odds of even qualified success, but I'm cheering for them anyway.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on December 17, 2015, 04:51:35 pm
Star Citizen is the technological dead-end you'd expect if you built an open-world space MMO in an engine built for FPS tech demos. Every ~major advance~ they've made has consisted of repairing one of the ****ups that lead on from that decision. Like with literally every other thing SC has accomplished, E:D did it earlier, cheaper, and with less wanky fanfare.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on December 17, 2015, 05:37:53 pm
—Most closely comparable to PlanetSide 2, in that it will be an ambitious concept plagued by technical difficulties, bad balance, and an inability to find actual fun in the huge gamescape
But I had a huuuge amount of fun in Planetside 2 with a lot of really fond memories of amazing battles and heroic feats.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on December 17, 2015, 06:14:17 pm
who the **** actually cares how much their tables cost? it's a tiny tiny tiny fraction of their expenses and it's dangerously far into 'your crowdfunded game must be completed in squalour' levels of righteousness

The price of the tables relative to the total budget is not relevant no, but it can be indicative of the overall philosophy of the company and the way they manage their money.

Ion Storm, the studio headed by John Romero which produced Daikatana was located in the penthouse of a large office tower.  Now some would rightly ask, "Why the hell are you in the penthouse? What a waste of money".  But for him it was a status symbol, he wanted the studio fancy even if later on it was discovered that the skylights and computers made it very hot and difficult to work and the studio turned into a virtual shanty town with cloth draped over cubicles to shut out the light while employees slept on the floor. Incidentally his super ambitious game,  Daikatana, was released years late and buggy with poor AI after many internal studio troubles.


Now imagine if that studio and game was crowd-funded. Would it be odd for people to ask "Why the hell are you in the penthouse instead of in a much cheaper ground-floor suite?". Would moving into a ground floor or cheaper suite be equivalent of living in squalor? No of course not.

So why would filling your studio with affordable furniture be anything less?
Like if those tables in fact cost 3000 dollars, that represents the contributions of 100 30-dollar backers.  How would you feel to know you're trying to help make a game and your money was spent for 1/17th of a table for one employee?

Like congratulations 666maslo666, your 53 dollars may have helped pay for anywhere from 2.7% to 4.8% of a Industrial Tool Chest 4-Door Media (priced 1095 to 1895 dollars).   

Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: karajorma on December 17, 2015, 10:06:45 pm
who the **** actually cares how much their tables cost? it's a tiny tiny tiny fraction of their expenses and it's dangerously far into 'your crowdfunded game must be completed in squalour' levels of righteousness

If the game is completed, no one. But if they have to start cutting features or quit cause they ran out of money, then yeah it becomes a little more important.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Axem on December 17, 2015, 10:44:46 pm
Yeah to me, the whole furniture thing feels like it says more about the attitude of the people running the place. If I were backing a game dev studio, I'd have no issue with them buying high level, premium equipment that can get the job done better and boosts morale. Buy a $2000 desk? Sure, but it better have amazing wi-fi connected drawers, motorized height control and a 4 inch thick solid maple/marble/granite top that will support the weight of the 6 panel display mount that's also being requisitioning in.

But they bought a door with metal legs from the most absurdly overpriced place that seems to cater to set designers for pretentious magazines that detail this month's rich hipster (luckily there's only 1 a month).

I mean those desks look like something you find lying in an Ikea garbage bin.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 18, 2015, 02:26:12 am
So yeah, reporting sexist and ****ty comments?  Ban that troll.  Making sexist and ****ty comments?  No problem.  Can't allow those goons to ruin our fun by calling out sexism.

Yeah, that's truly excellent moderation.

Reporting sexist and ****ty comments while using vulgar language? Ban that troll indeed!

Also, there were other bans handed out in that threat, lots of them for sexist comments. Making sexist comments is not tolerated on SC forums. The Female gamers group then went on with increased moderation and it all went well in the end. As I said, Star Citizen community is very welcoming to women and minorities. But not to trolls, Goon or not.

The only objective mistake committed by SC moderation in this whole incident was that a moderator handed out a 7 day ban instead of 1 day ban for first offense. A minor thing which was later corrected.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Hades on December 18, 2015, 03:43:10 am
So yeah, reporting sexist and ****ty comments?  Ban that troll.  Making sexist and ****ty comments?  No problem.  Can't allow those goons to ruin our fun by calling out sexism.

Yeah, that's truly excellent moderation.

Reporting sexist and ****ty comments while using vulgar language? Ban that troll indeed!

Also, there were other bans handed out in that threat, lots of them for sexist comments. Making sexist comments is not tolerated on SC forums. The Female gamers group then went on with increased moderation and it all went well in the end. As I said, Star Citizen community is very welcoming to women and minorities. But not to trolls, Goon or not.

The only objective mistake committed by SC moderation in this whole incident was that a moderator handed out a 7 day ban instead of 1 day ban for first offense. A minor thing which was later corrected.
Why does using god damn vulgar language matter? Are you a ****ing puritan who gets easily offended by such ****? It's another layer of language, albeit one that has a hint of frustration, but that's how that is.

The community is objectively terrible, it's a hug box that's even driven away still loyal fans of Star Citizen from both reddit and the main forums. Someone named Baragoon who **** all over a LGBT group's thread went pretty much unpunished and still actively posts. The moderation is terrible as well, Beer4thebeergod got perma banned on the forums for his very first slight against it (a single, critical post) despite being very active in the community beforehand.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 18, 2015, 04:25:27 am
Why does using god damn vulgar language matter? Are you a ****ing puritan who gets easily offended by such ****? It's another layer of language, albeit one that has a hint of frustration, but that's how that is.

The community is objectively terrible, it's a hug box that's even driven away still loyal fans of Star Citizen from both reddit and the main forums. Someone named Baragoon who **** all over a LGBT group's thread went pretty much unpunished and still actively posts. The moderation is terrible as well, Beer4thebeergod got perma banned on the forums for his very first slight against it (a single, critical post) despite being very active in the community beforehand.

The troll wasnt banned just for vulgar language itself, but using it to insult other members. Now that is a banable offense on any decent forum. That ban was deserved by any measure.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: The E on December 18, 2015, 05:18:45 am
The insulting language was used in post reports. While I wouldn't want our reports here to be full of vulgarity, it is certainly understood by all moderators on this board that language used in a post report is only an issue if said report is unreadable. Everything else is unimportant, and banning people for reporting posts is not the kind of action a reasonable mod staff should ever take.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: NGTM-1R on December 18, 2015, 05:19:45 am
The troll wasnt banned just for vulgar language itself, but using it to insult other members. Now that is a banable offense on any decent forum. That ban was deserved by any measure.

I'm pretty sure I've been vulgar in some of my reports. I've never been banned about it. Several of those reports have been acted on.

I mean, if somebody walks up to you and declares "I'M HITLER" and whips out their swastika-tattoo'd genitalia to prove it, what kind of response beyond "holy **** what is wrong with you" and "you are a pig-ignorant asshole get ****ed" is even possible for most people?

We've had some pretty horrifying things said in GenDisc before here and the outpouring of horror has been unfeigned and usually unmoderated because what else are people going to do?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: FrikgFeek on December 18, 2015, 05:27:04 am
The troll wasnt banned just for vulgar language itself, but using it to insult other members. Now that is a banable offense on any decent forum. That ban was deserved by any measure.

Are you serious? No decent forum will ban people because they used any language to insult other members. What's the difference between calling someone an idiot or a '****ing idiot'? Internet discussions are pretty normal and so is 'vulgar' language, you don't just hand out bans for that.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on December 18, 2015, 05:55:09 am
i remember seeing the SA thread from when lauresh got banned, there were plenty of goons saying that probably she'd gone too far with the abusive reports
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 18, 2015, 05:57:55 am
Which might merit a warning.  Like if I was to call 666maslo666 a ****ing idiot.  I'd fully expect to get a warning for that, but not a ban.  Who gives a **** about doing it in reports no one except moderators can see?

But then again, merely criticising RSI moderators (http://i.imgur.com/shKCaRa.jpg) is grounds for (http://i.imgur.com/dq0b2cK.jpg) a 10-year ban (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/citizens/Seria). 

You may get banned even if you didn't say anything on RSI. (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/3wleb1/what_in_the_verse_is_going_on_in_the_rsi_forums/)

Heh, if RSI mods saw this thread, they'd probably ban me.  That's an amusing thought.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Kszyhu on December 18, 2015, 06:39:05 am
Now that's funny, I remember Seria dropping into E:D thread on RSI forums periodically to claim SC's superiority, last person I would expect to be banned there.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on December 18, 2015, 07:51:51 am
Everytime I see a link to that rsi reddit I see nothing but extremely loyal white knights commenting on stuff with massive upvotes.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Lorric on December 18, 2015, 07:59:28 am
banning people for reporting posts is not the kind of action a reasonable mod staff should ever take.
Really...

And mine didn't even have bad language in them.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on December 18, 2015, 08:04:35 am
You really have to appreciate the skilled camera work in the ~seamless planetary transition~ that hides all the limitations of their system.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: karajorma on December 18, 2015, 08:54:42 am
Which might merit a warning.  Like if I was to call 666maslo666 a ****ing idiot.  I'd fully expect to get a warning for that, but not a ban.  Who gives a **** about doing it in reports no one except moderators can see?

*Puts on moderator hat*

Calling someone an idiot in a forum post would likely get you a warning, post moderation or a posting ban depending on how often you've done it before, what provocation was in the thread prior to your post, and how severe the insulting was. Calling someone an idiot in a post report would probably not get you any action at all because that's private.

The whole reason for that is in order to stamp out flaming before it get started. If you call someone names publicly, you're going to the one who gets in trouble for it because we don't want them feeling that they have to respond in kind. If you do it in a report though, only the mods and admins are going to see it so as NGTM-1R says, we don't mind a little venting when it's justified. That said, don't start composing particularly foul reports based on that. :p


banning people for reporting posts is not the kind of action a reasonable mod staff should ever take.
Really...

And mine didn't even have bad language in them.

We did explain at the time that you got into trouble for severe overuse of the report system to the point where you, one user, were generating a large percentage of the reports on this forum. Reports that by and large were worthless especially given that you didn't seem to understand the forum rules well enough at the time to not be the person that the majority of the other reports were about. No one is going to get in trouble for using the report system as it was designed. Abuse of the system on the other hand.....
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Lorric on December 18, 2015, 09:07:12 am
I'm only interested in talking to The E about this, if I talk to anyone.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: karajorma on December 18, 2015, 09:10:25 am
I'm only interested in talking to The E about this, if I talk to anyone.

Then PM him. If you're going to drag your dirty laundry into public, don't complain when people point and laugh at your skidmarks.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Lorric on December 18, 2015, 09:12:06 am
I'm only interested in talking to The E about this, if I talk to anyone.

Then PM him. If you're going to drag your dirty laundry into public, don't complain when people point and laugh at your skidmarks.
I can't. He has forbade me from PMing him.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: karajorma on December 18, 2015, 09:27:20 am
Then don't use the forum as your person PM outbox. Seriously Lorric, you've been doing well for months now, don't start up this **** again over an issue everyone else has long forgotten about. Let the topic go back to Star Citizen.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: The E on December 18, 2015, 09:33:44 am
And just for the record? Any answer you'll get from me will just be a copy/paste job of what Karajorma just said.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Lorric on December 18, 2015, 09:38:37 am
Then don't use the forum as your person PM outbox. Seriously Lorric, you've been doing well for months now, don't start up this **** again over an issue everyone else has long forgotten about. Let the topic go back to Star Citizen.

Well The E will still talk to me on the forum, and people were discussing moderation in a Hard Light context. But I'm happy enough to let the conversation go back to Star Citizen if that's where people want it to go.

I never thought I'd ever hear you say I'd been doing well at anything.

And just for the record? Any answer you'll get from me will just be a copy/paste job of what Karajorma just said.

So do you want to talk about it? Or would you prefer to just leave it?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: The E on December 18, 2015, 10:12:17 am
There is nothing to talk about.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on December 18, 2015, 02:28:57 pm
But I'm happy enough to let the conversation go back to Star Citizen if that's where people want it to go.
Well, yeah. Duh? I'm not even sure what you were trying to accomplish by trying to hijack this thread with your personal issues. (And no, don't answer that)
Not to tell the Moderators their job, but maybe split the unrelated few posts off so we can go back to bashing SC in peace?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 18, 2015, 03:12:44 pm
Are you serious? No decent forum will ban people because they used any language to insult other members. What's the difference between calling someone an idiot or a '****ing idiot'? Internet discussions are pretty normal and so is 'vulgar' language, you don't just hand out bans for that.

Really?? I am absolutely serious. Calling people "****ing idiots" is maybe acceptable on 4chan, but not on official forums of a game company. It is a banable offense, and rightly so.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: FrikgFeek on December 18, 2015, 04:05:17 pm
It really isn't. You'd get a friendly notice at best and a warning at worst. Definitely not a ban.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: NGTM-1R on December 18, 2015, 09:09:58 pm
Really?? I am absolutely serious. Calling people "****ing idiots" is maybe acceptable on 4chan, but not on official forums of a game company. It is a banable offense, and rightly so.

You haven't figured out yet that there's a difference between public and private expression, I see.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: karajorma on December 18, 2015, 11:45:16 pm
Really?? I am absolutely serious. Calling people "****ing idiots" is maybe acceptable on 4chan, but not on official forums of a game company. It is a banable offense, and rightly so.

Are the reports public? Cause if not it shouldn't be bannable for exactly the reasons I outlined above. Banning someone for a comment they made in private where the insulted person isn't going to hear it isn't good forum moderation at all.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 19, 2015, 02:26:40 am
Really?? I am absolutely serious. Calling people "****ing idiots" is maybe acceptable on 4chan, but not on official forums of a game company. It is a banable offense, and rightly so.

Are the reports public? Cause if not it shouldn't be bannable for exactly the reasons I outlined above. Banning someone for a comment they made in private where the insulted person isn't going to hear it isn't good forum moderation at all.

I believe ban is justified even when it is only private reports. One day ban certainly. So it is good moderation, IMHO.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: The E on December 19, 2015, 02:31:21 am
I believe ban is justified even when it is only private reports. One day ban certainly. So it is good moderation, IMHO.

So you want people to be banned for using language you disapprove of in messages a normal user would never read.

Tell me, how much did you dislike censorship and political correctness again?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on December 19, 2015, 02:52:13 am
Really?? I am absolutely serious. Calling people "****ing idiots" is maybe acceptable on 4chan, but not on official forums of a game company. It is a banable offense, and rightly so.

Are the reports public? Cause if not it shouldn't be bannable for exactly the reasons I outlined above. Banning someone for a comment they made in private where the insulted person isn't going to hear it isn't good forum moderation at all.

I believe ban is justified even when it is only private reports. One day ban certainly. So it is good moderation, IMHO.

If it's not in the rules, it's not justified:
https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/86002/forum-rules-moderator-responsibilities-updated-10-18-15
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 19, 2015, 03:15:20 am
Guys you just don't get it.  It doesn't matter what CIG do, it's a good thing.  No matter what.  Anything that seems bad will be promptly reinterpreted so it's always been the plan and it's always been good.  We have always been at war with Eastasia.

Tell me, how much did you dislike censorship and political correctness again?
It's not censorship because censorship is bad and CIG just wouldn't do something bad.  You're just being a troll and/or impatient.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on December 19, 2015, 03:38:37 am
Guys you just don't get it.  It doesn't matter what CIG do, it's a good thing.  No matter what.  Anything that seems bad will be promptly reinterpreted so it's always been the plan and it's always been good.  We have always been at war with Eastasia.

Oh we're all fully aware of that.
And ironically, CGI is seriously one of the most money grubbing games I've ever seen in my life.

Blatant whale hunting with absurdly priced ships
Pay-to-win "alpha testing" for a game which isn't free
Free to fly weeks and temporary REC progression to promote and incentivize buying of ships
Optional subscription service
Microtransactions for credit and other crap

Basically they use every trick in the book to try and get money out of their players. In an ALPHA test. And the idea that they're "Testing the game" and yet most of the games content is locked to most players most of the time is absurd.  How the **** do you test content when said content is only flown a small percentage of the time?


Funniest thing is when people say that the game should be better than it is, people tell you it's "early development". If you ask them how two-three years after the kickstarter is early development, they'll compare their game to GTA V or Fallout 4. If you talk about gray boxing or the wanton waste of replacing models they'll say you don't know anything about game dev. They've said that all the ships will be unlocked for Arena when some Baby PU comes out, but it's a sure thing I think that the PU will have some sort of mechanic in place to incentivize people buying better ships.


And the funny thing is. Star Citizen is being built through the use of projected funds. It is literally being funded while in what is essentially early access. Under that light, Star Citizen's development isn't comparable to Fallout 4 or the Witcher 3, but instead it's comparable to Space Base DF9.  And if the money stopped today, you'd probably see the same result.

Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 19, 2015, 06:44:51 am
I believe ban is justified even when it is only private reports. One day ban certainly. So it is good moderation, IMHO.

So you want people to be banned for using language you disapprove of in messages a normal user would never read.

Tell me, how much did you dislike censorship and political correctness again?

I dislike it when government or public institutions do it (or forums that claim freedom of speech is their important aspect). Other private forums such as RSI can censor whatever they want. Also, bans due to insulting language are not politically motivated at all, it is just common decency. As I said, such language may be acceptable on 4chan or reddit, but not on official gaming forums.

RSI forums rule number 8:

Quote
8. Don’t abuse the flag system. The flagging system is here to point out any posts that may be breaking the forum rules. It is not here to make fun of a moderator’s ruling or insult other members. Do not use harsh language in your flag description and do not flag posts simply because you disagree with another member. Do not reflag a post. Each flag is reviewed and often flagged posts require no action. Flagging posts that are older than 1 month will take lower priority than recent posts.

The ban was clearly justified.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: The E on December 19, 2015, 06:45:37 am
Was that rule in place before this incident?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: NGTM-1R on December 19, 2015, 10:49:26 am
Also I hate to be That Guy, but moderation is basically volunteering to throw yourself on the grenade of whatever vulgarity, porn, and creepy the internet can toss up.

The idea you're pushing is at its core that the moderators are entitled, just as the regular forum goers are entitled, not to have to deal with that stuff. This is directly at odds with their task of reviewing any questionable content that appears to determine if it is that stuff.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Firesteel on December 19, 2015, 03:48:50 pm
Even if you are a company, censoring your forums can still reflect badly on your practices. If there starts to be censorship of any critical opinions, then there is a problem regardless of if you are a government or a company. See Jim Sterling and Digital Homicide for an example if you are so inclined.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: FrikgFeek on December 19, 2015, 04:53:29 pm
Censoring vulgar language for a supposedly mature game aimed at old school space sim fans also seems kinda stupid. I mean, it's not like we're talking about Nintendo forums here.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: zookeeper on December 19, 2015, 05:27:07 pm
Censoring vulgar language for a supposedly mature game aimed at old school space sim fans also seems kinda stupid. I mean, it's not like we're talking about Nintendo forums here.

That sounds backwards though. If I had a forum intended for mature audiences, I'd want to discourage/censor vulgarity so that the atmosphere actually stays mature, whereas if I had a forum for kids then I'd maybe want to be more relaxed as to not drive away all the kids. :wtf:
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Hades on December 19, 2015, 09:02:26 pm
It's impossible to actually have a mature atmosphere if users are being censored or banned simply due to using profanity.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on December 19, 2015, 09:37:16 pm
It's impossible to actually have a mature atmosphere if users are being censored or banned simply due to using profanity.
I agree with this mother****er.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Mikes on December 20, 2015, 05:03:12 am
It's impossible to actually have a mature atmosphere if users are being censored or banned simply due to using profanity.

Strangely enough there are lot of communities that manage to have both, a mature atmosphere and a lack of profanity ...

Even more strangely, it is even more common in real life and especially in professional environments. Well, over here anyways.


Seriously ... profanity has nothing to do with maturity, you motherf***** :P
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: The E on December 20, 2015, 06:06:39 am
Profanity or lack thereof has nothing to do with maturity.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on December 20, 2015, 07:22:37 am
So continuing the '****ty cockpits' thing we had going a while back, this is the cockpit of the Freelancer:

(http://i.imgur.com/VdCqbF8.jpg)

I'm so immersed, i can feel it trickling down my nose
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: The E on December 20, 2015, 07:27:22 am
Yeah, one of my main complaints with Elite is just how much space you have to see all the time, I'm glad SC isn't making the same mistake.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 20, 2015, 07:34:05 am
(http://i.imgur.com/yKmnk4Q.jpg)


I look forward to 666maslo666 explaining to us how the Freelancer cockpit is actually really good and we're all wrong and/or trolling for saying it's bad.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: GhylTarvoke on December 20, 2015, 08:20:49 am
I hope Cobblers was being sarcastic. It's hard to tell on the SC forums.

Why are they even doing this? Are they trying to hide performance issues?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Mikes on December 20, 2015, 08:35:10 am
I hope Cobblers was being sarcastic. It's hard to tell on the SC forums.

Why are they even doing this? Are they trying to hide performance issues?

There are *some* ships with good visibility ... so can't be that.

My money would indeed be on a misguided wish to create "immersion".
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: GhylTarvoke on December 20, 2015, 08:51:06 am
The mind boggles.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 20, 2015, 09:04:16 am
I think it's sarcasm because of the name Christo_Roberto, but it says a lot about the community that you can't be sure.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Sushi on December 20, 2015, 10:29:14 am
That cockpit reminds me of the Adder from ED. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKOVGPefKlg

Personally, I'm not particularly bothered by having some unnecessarily restricted cockpits, but I think we already had that discussion.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 20, 2015, 03:58:16 pm
I look forward to 666maslo666 explaining to us how the Freelancer cockpit is actually really good and we're all wrong and/or trolling for saying it's bad.

Nah, usually I am fine with claustrophobic cockpits but that Freelancer cockpit is too much. Needs windows on top.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Deathsnake on December 21, 2015, 04:08:04 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnzcvlHHcdI

I think it is great enough. It is not a combat fighter!

Take a look at the 90-100m Starfarer and the Cockpit:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BatZFnSyj48
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 21, 2015, 04:17:12 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnzcvlHHcdI

I think it is great enough. It is not a combat fighter!

Take a look at the 90-100m Starfarer and the Cockpit:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BatZFnSyj48

Hey, there actually are windows on top! But the bezel between them and the main window is very thick, so you cant see them from the seat.

Freelancer is not a combat fighter but when 2/3 of cockpit view is covered by solid walls, then it is just too much in any ship, IMHO. Adding another window wouldnt hurt.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: The E on December 21, 2015, 04:44:33 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnzcvlHHcdI

I think it is great enough. It is not a combat fighter!

No, it's not. It's a space truck. Do you know what RL trucks have? Excellent visibility, because drivers do need to see where they're going.

And that's before we start talking about the needs of a spacegame. One of those needs is to show space, not dashboards. There is, imho, no excuse for cluttering up the screen with cockpit geometry beyond the bare minimum (go back a few pages, we had a discussion about the way SC is wasting screen space there). For ****'s sake, I'm playing these games in part because of the awesome visuals they can generate, I want to see nebulae and suns and stars and planets, not bloody dashboards all the time.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on December 21, 2015, 05:21:09 am
The main problem is again that none of that blocked-out space has anything interesting in it. It's all just grey panelling. Maybe if it had some HUD elements attached it'd be more forgiveable but as usual the HUD just kind of floats in front of the player unanchored.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 21, 2015, 08:51:28 am
Because this was fun to do last time:

(http://i.imgur.com/YeAs82X.png)

That's an impressive amount of useless pixels.  The Adder doesn't even come close.  At least on the Adder, most of the parts of the screen not showing outside are used for HUD.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Deathsnake on December 21, 2015, 12:12:49 pm
I looking Forward to my 890J and its Bridge :P

(http://i.imgur.com/sjh2I11.jpg)

Thats a view!
It is a Little big larger ^^ About 140m now
(http://i.imgur.com/VdYxLJB.jpg)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 21, 2015, 12:16:39 pm
How much did you pay for those jpegs of a ship that doesn't exist?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Deathsnake on December 21, 2015, 12:22:34 pm
600 Dollar :D

Wait when its done ;) Besides the Idris the best armament, armored and fastest ship (like the Reta) and can carry 2 P72 and the 85x or 2 M50 ;)

Chris says even a single Retaliator is no threat to it. But if a Reta wing comes in or worse - a Idris I should flee. No prob. Because the Idris is much slower then the 890J :P
Has a add. Battle Bridge for Command & Control or Electronic Warfare.

Overall 7 turrets. Battle armed luxury Yacht :D
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 21, 2015, 12:28:50 pm
Command and Control and Electronic Warfare, huh?   Cool.  So how are those gameplay mechanics going to work?  Tell me about them.



But seriously, you realize no one here is going to be impressed by your 600$ jpeg, right?  Unless you're on RSI, paying that much money for a nonexistent ship in a nonexistent game is not something to be proud of.

You could have bought one whole table from CIG's furniture supplier with that money!  And it would have been better spent because at least you'd have something tangible, not just a jpeg.

And there's something incredibly awkward about that ship design.  Can't put my finger on it, but it looks wrong.


Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on December 21, 2015, 12:38:17 pm
600 Dollar :D

Wait when its done ;) Besides the Idris the best armament, armored and fastest ship (like the Reta) and can carry 2 P72 and the 85x or 2 M50 ;)

Chris says even a single Retaliator is no threat to it. But if a Reta wing comes in or worse - a Idris I should flee. No prob. Because the Idris is much slower then the 890J :P
Has a add. Battle Bridge for Command & Control or Electronic Warfare.

Overall 7 turrets. Battle armed luxury Yacht :D
My favorite thing about people buying the jpg's is just how much fun they seem to be having. Not by playing the game, but by imagining having fun with it Someday.
And they get so jolly and excited about all the promised features and equipment that they might get to experience Someday.
Also what the **** is a P72 and 85x?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Deathsnake on December 21, 2015, 12:53:02 pm
Hmm I don't know, but I Play it. For example with the Reta Bomber or the Connie :)

http://abload.de/img/screenshot00068ukfi.jpg
http://abload.de/img/screenshot0060o6kto.jpg
Crew :)
http://abload.de/img/screenshot0037uskvr.jpg


This is the P52 Merlin. Size is around an X-Wing with 12m. Can only operate with bigger Ships with Hangar.
http://abload.de/img/screenshot0020mck09.jpg
The P72 is the 4 Laser Version and the 85X Comes with the 890J. Two Person shuttle
http://i.imgur.com/ksKBY2L.jpg
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on December 21, 2015, 12:54:08 pm
So this is how CiG stays afloat.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 21, 2015, 01:01:14 pm
Deathsnake: you talked about Command and Control and Electronic Warfare addons for the 890.  Tell me about how those are going to work in gameplay terms!  I'm dying to know.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: EatThePath on December 21, 2015, 01:01:40 pm
All those RSI logos and 42s, are those something you chose to put on your ships or is that just an immutable part of the package?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 21, 2015, 01:05:24 pm
Nah, those aren't customized because they don't have the design document for ship customization done yet.  Two weeks.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: EatThePath on December 21, 2015, 01:14:51 pm
Intending to make ships customizable and putting out this many 'finished' ships without having customization implemented already is... I thought I had grasped the depths of SC's foley already, but evidently I was wrong.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Deathsnake on December 21, 2015, 01:42:45 pm
The 42er Logos on the Aegis ships is why they are in SQ42 SP-Campaign. The other Logos on the ships for the Manufactorer like RSI, DRAKE, MISC, AEGIS, ANVIL, ORIGIN and so on stays.  We can get later own logos for our Orgas. But they are not hurry.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gvogk1i9jeQ
And two more of my JPEGS ships are Hangar ready and soon flight ready :)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 21, 2015, 02:08:13 pm
You know, kinda like you see Boeing and Lockheed Martin logos all over USAF planes.  That's a thing, right?

Deathsnake why won't you tell me about EW and C&C gameplay?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: OneOneThree on December 21, 2015, 02:09:20 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/VdYxLJB.jpg)

It looks like a caricature of an angry duck. More evidence that no amount of details can save the big picture. The concept has to stand on its own, without one million polygons. A lot of SC ships seem to have this issue.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: GhylTarvoke on December 21, 2015, 02:37:12 pm
It's disgusting that RSI charges $1000's for hypothetical ships. It's even more disgusting if it turns out to be a scam... which seems likely.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 21, 2015, 02:49:44 pm
Like I've said before, I don't think it's a scam.  I do think CR wants to build a good game, but he's held back by the fact that he's incompetent.

He's like George Lucas: He really tried to make the prequels good and had all the tools to do it.  His problem was that past success and gross overestimation of his abilities led to him ignoring the advice of people who really did know better.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: GhylTarvoke on December 21, 2015, 03:38:37 pm
I hope you're right. His business practices make me doubt his good faith.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: MikeRoz on December 21, 2015, 05:37:04 pm
Would this level of hostility be tolerated if we were talking about Blue Planet or Diaspora?

How about Wings of Dawn or Dimensional Eclipse?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Unknown Target on December 21, 2015, 06:02:23 pm
Yea, probably. Especially if it was proven that they were taking thousands of dollars of people's money for arguably little progress.

That being said, it blows my mind that someone would spend $600 on a ship for a game that doesn't exist yet. I could buy an entire FPV quadcopter setup for that.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: General Battuta on December 21, 2015, 06:08:15 pm
Would this level of hostility be tolerated if we were talking about Blue Planet or Diaspora?

How about Wings of Dawn or Dimensional Eclipse?

Free projects hosted on this site vs. a for-profit game hosted elsewhere? Apples and pre-ordered pictures of oranges.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: NGTM-1R on December 21, 2015, 06:10:09 pm
How about Wings of Dawn

This level of hostility against Wings of Dawn was briefly institutional. Your memory's a little short here.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 21, 2015, 07:13:55 pm
Would this level of hostility be tolerated if we were talking about Blue Planet or Diaspora?

How about Wings of Dawn or Dimensional Eclipse?
I must have missed the part where BP and WoD took one hundred million dollars from people and were a year late in actually delivering a game with no release in sight.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Axem on December 21, 2015, 08:33:38 pm
Oh don't worry. We've got you covered.

(http://lazymodders.fsmods.net/axemart/WoD/wingsofcitizens.png)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Scourge of Ages on December 21, 2015, 08:49:04 pm
(https://2982-presscdn-29-70-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Shut-up-and-take-my-money.jpg)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: CKid on December 21, 2015, 09:31:27 pm
omg Axem, you made me laugh so hard that I started choking. +1
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on December 21, 2015, 09:59:55 pm
Would this level of hostility be tolerated if we were talking about Blue Planet or Diaspora?

I was plenty hostile with WiH's rage-inducing story.
It was tolerated . . .for a few pages of "discourse".

Like I've said before, I don't think it's a scam.  I do think CR wants to build a good game, but he's held back by the fact that he's incompetent.

There's nothing incompetent about their business practices.
You don't charge 2500 dollars for a ship by accident. You do it deliberately. Their entire alpha test is deliberately designed to get money from their players.

Is the game a scam? Who knows. Are they scamming their players? Hell yes.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: karajorma on December 21, 2015, 10:43:48 pm
Is the game a scam? Who knows. Are they scamming their players? Hell yes.

I'm going to have to agree with Aesaar on the first part. CR really does seem to want to produce an amazing game at the end of this process. I agree with you about the second part though. SC has gotten to the point where the people behind it know it can only ever be what they claimed it would be if they can keep the money rolling in. And the only way to do that is at the expense of the players. That's why we're seeing ships that were supposed to be on sale only once, going back on sale. That's not for the good of the players at all. If something was a promised exclusive, one time only, sale they'd stick with that if they thought promises to the players were the most important thing. But it's not the most important thing any more. Keeping the money rolling in so that the wheels don't come off is most important, even if it means going back on earlier promises.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 22, 2015, 02:24:42 am

That being said, it blows my mind that someone would spend $600 on a ship for a game that doesn't exist yet. I could buy an entire FPV quadcopter setup for that.

It does not blow my mind. I would not do that because $600 is a relatively lot of money for me, but how about someone who earns so much that the marginal utility of $600 for him is as low as marginal utility of $60 for me?

And I think its a little dishonest how people imply that its only the ship that gets bought here, its obvious that no virtual ship alone has such a great value - the purpose of those pledges is primarily to fund the development of a game you are looking forward to. The ship is just a nice perk in addition to that.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: FrikgFeek on December 22, 2015, 05:33:49 am
Do you really think that many people would be donating 600-1000$ if it weren't for the promise of exclusive ships with fancy-sounding gameplay mechanics(Coming SoonTM).
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 22, 2015, 07:36:38 am
Of course CIG are selling ships.  Even they think so.  You don't need sales tax for donations, and there is sales tax applied to every single item in the pledge store.  These are sales, not donations.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 22, 2015, 08:09:28 am
Of course CIG are selling ships.  Even they think so.  You don't need sales tax for donations, and there is sales tax applied to every single item in the pledge store.  These are sales, not donations.

This does not prove anything. You need to pay sales tax if you provide any product as a reward. This is more about what the state considers sale/donation, not what CIG or backers consider it, or about the backer motivations for buying the ships (which is the topic here).
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 22, 2015, 08:25:46 am
Do you really think that many people would be donating 600-1000$ if it weren't for the promise of exclusive ships with fancy-sounding gameplay mechanics(Coming SoonTM).

Yes. Such high donations are not exclusive to Star Citizen. There were many other crowdfunded projects where individual people donated larger amounts - because they are rich, can afford it, and want the project to succeed, not primarily because they want the reward for their high donation tier (the rewards for higher tiers are always far below the value of donated money - just like with SC). Its their free decision, and if they can afford it, why should I complain? More money for development means better game for me in the end. So, thank you "whales" for funding the game! :)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 22, 2015, 08:29:28 am
CIG clearly consider it selling a product, given that they throw the word sale around all the time.  Concept sale, anniversary sale, Christmas sale.  You don't need to have a sale if all you're asking for are donations.  And if people were backing purely to donate, you wouldn't get so many people hyped about concept sales or whatever.  "It's a donation" is what people say when they try to excuse CIG's money-grubbing (like you're doing now), and when they try to rationalize their purchases to themselves.

You and I both know CIG would have never raised anywhere close to this much money if they hadn't been selling ships.

For a studio so proud of ditching "evil publishers", they're more focused on money than any publisher I've ever seen.

More money for development means better game for me in the end.
Not actually true, as we've explained earlier in this thread, but whatever.  You're not going to understand any better if we explain it again, so I'm not going to waste effort doing it.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: MatthTheGeek on December 22, 2015, 08:32:57 am
More money for development means better game for me in the end.
Except so far it's lead to the exact opposite. More money meant more future creep, more delays, more disorganisation, more disenchantment and less game.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 22, 2015, 09:34:25 am
More money for development means better game for me in the end.
Except so far it's lead to the exact opposite. More money meant more future creep, more delays, more disorganisation, more disenchantment and less game.

Feature creep and delays do not mean worse game, they just mean later game. And I am OK with waiting if it means a better game in the end.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on December 22, 2015, 10:23:05 am
Feature creep and delays do not mean worse game, they just mean later game.
I don't know if it's physically possible to facepalm as hard as this statement deserves.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: NGTM-1R on December 22, 2015, 11:00:38 am
Feature creep and delays do not mean worse game, they just mean later game.

...I'm going to go with "you've never even been part of a project here on HLP" as the only possible mindset that could produce this sentence.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: General Battuta on December 22, 2015, 11:05:34 am
More money for development means better game for me in the end.
Except so far it's lead to the exact opposite. More money meant more future creep, more delays, more disorganisation, more disenchantment and less game.

Feature creep and delays do not mean worse game, they just mean later game. And I am OK with waiting if it means a better game in the end.

John Romero's gonna make you his *****
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on December 22, 2015, 01:46:58 pm
Oh don't worry. We've got you covered.

(http://lazymodders.fsmods.net/axemart/WoD/wingsofcitizens.png)
(http://i1054.photobucket.com/albums/s490/kingspoon/WoD/Misuzuseal3_zpsvrkhrmqs.png~original)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 22, 2015, 02:38:36 pm
More money for development means better game for me in the end.
Except so far it's lead to the exact opposite. More money meant more future creep, more delays, more disorganisation, more disenchantment and less game.

Feature creep and delays do not mean worse game, they just mean later game. And I am OK with waiting if it means a better game in the end.

John Romero's gonna make you his *****

You are proving my point. Daikatana was not that bad in itself, it was just suprassed by other FPS games by the time it was finally released. It was likely a better game in the end than if it was released as originally planned, with the old engine, assets and all (just not better enough). So yes, as I said, the delays did not result in a worse game, just a game that came too late, outmatched by competition.

Contrary to FPS, Star Citizen is a game of a niche genre with not much competition, so I am not afraid of the same fate, SC can likely take several years delay without anything similar but better coming along. But even if it happens - someone delivering on SC promises sooner than SC - it would be only good for us players (and not possible without the hype SC generates about the genre in the first place).
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 22, 2015, 02:56:40 pm
Freespace itself is another example. The development of Freespace Open happens at a snail's pace compared to games with professional studios behind them. Yet 15 years later its still the best space sim game available. Comparing a game of a most popular genre developed during the time when progress in such computer games was probably the fastest with current situation in space sim games is dishonest (fringe genre, practically no competition, at a time when progress has slowed down so much that 5 year old games still look good). Daikatana was surpassed by games such as Quake III and Unreal Tournament by the time it was out, but what is going to be the Quake III or Unreal Tournament of Star Citizen?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Scotty on December 22, 2015, 03:10:27 pm
At the current trajectory, real life.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: StarSlayer on December 22, 2015, 03:12:52 pm
(http://www.talkweather.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/rimshot.gif)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Axem on December 22, 2015, 03:14:53 pm
Wanting to compare the snail's pace of a hobbyist open source project with a handful of coders active at any time to a hypothetically AAA game studio with an apparently unlimited budget is pretty dishonest too.

What might surpass Star Citizen as a totally open MMO persistent open-world space sim/FPS hybrid free for all game? Nothing this decade probably. In fact if Star Citizen goes under, it'll probably scare off anyone from undertaking this sort of project again.

What might surpass Star Citizen as a space sim only (which is what a lot of people were hoping for to begin with)? Elite, No Man's Sky, Enemy Starfighter, the wealth of other small indie space sims that crop up every other month.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: General Battuta on December 22, 2015, 03:16:40 pm
More money for development means better game for me in the end.
Except so far it's lead to the exact opposite. More money meant more future creep, more delays, more disorganisation, more disenchantment and less game.

Feature creep and delays do not mean worse game, they just mean later game. And I am OK with waiting if it means a better game in the end.

John Romero's gonna make you his *****

You are proving my point. Daikatana was not that bad in itself

lol

Daikatana was terrible, and the developer's insistence on scrapping, rebuilding, and swapping engines to try to catch up to other games being built at the same time is  a classic example of scope creep. It would've been a better game, delivered sooner, if it had stayed in scope.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: The E on December 22, 2015, 03:26:59 pm
Daikatana "not that bad"? Compared to what, exactly? Random FNAF knockoffs on Greenlight?

Seriously though, Daikatana may not have been that bad taken on its own merits, but when looked at in light of its developer pedigree and marketing campaign? It was an utter disaster. The same will be true of SC, if/when it releases and isn't better at doing spaceflight than Elite, better at doing story than FS, better at being an MMO than WoW or EvE. It has to be the Best Damn Space Sim Ever, it cannot ever be mediocre.

But mediocre it probably will be. That's the trajectory the game's currently on.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on December 22, 2015, 03:46:24 pm
Wanting to compare the snail's pace of a hobbyist open source project with a handful of coders active at any time to a hypothetically AAA game studio with an apparently unlimited budget is pretty dishonest too.
Not to mention that everything FSO has done has been after release enhancements and bug fixing, as well as being done on no budget. We have finished games; released over a decade and a half ago, even.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: NGTM-1R on December 22, 2015, 05:08:31 pm
We have a man arguing with a straight face that a game where your sword blocks half your view, the CENTER HALF of your view, is "not bad".

I suppose given the cockpits we've seen that kind of makes sense actually.

Still.

Holy ****. Somebody close the thread, lock it here. Encapsulate this one perfect, timeless moment of madness for us that we may gaze upon it in awe and confusion forever and ever, amen. On the sixth day, as God was about to create the concept of insanity, he looked across time to this moment, and did a slow clap, and stopped. "You can't stop now!" complained a random angel. "You've only made the bones of the dinosaurs!" And the Almighty shook his head and replied. "Nope, I'm done. Can't top that."
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Phantom Hoover on December 22, 2015, 05:29:35 pm
fire breaks out at cig headquarters; eyewitnesses report last seeing chris roberts driving a golf buggy loaded with cocaine into a concealed falcon 9 heavy; nasa radar installation vectors launch towards alpha centauri

666maslo666 asked to comment, reports that he is 'still happy waiting'
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: karajorma on December 22, 2015, 05:36:30 pm
I know he's since topped it, but this particular comment needs to be highlighted too.

Of course CIG are selling ships.  Even they think so.  You don't need sales tax for donations, and there is sales tax applied to every single item in the pledge store.  These are sales, not donations.

This does not prove anything. You need to pay sales tax if you provide any product as a reward. This is more about what the state considers sale/donation, not what CIG or backers consider it, or about the backer motivations for buying the ships (which is the topic here).

So if the idea of the ships is that people just love the game and want to see it made, and aren't buying ships, why would they be willing to pay sales tax on a donation when they could just donate it and have all the money go to the makers of the game?
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on December 22, 2015, 07:16:54 pm
Ever heard of Axanar? The Star Trek fan film project.

As a fan-made project based on Star Trek, they are not allowed to sell merchandise that infringes on Paramount's IP nor are they allowed to sell their product.

Instead they have a "Donor store". Donate 10 bucks to the film, and then buy whatever through that store including miniature-games based on the Axanar property.

Now you can call them "donations", but it's a store. They're selling products. Both physical and digital.

So similarly, technically spending 2500 dollars on a promise of a ship is a "Donation" but it for all intents and purposes it is a purchase from a store. The player is buying DLC, they're buying an advantage over other players, etcetera.

To characterize it in any other way is to either be pedantic, delusional or dishonest.

Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Unknown Target on December 22, 2015, 09:54:25 pm
Wanting to compare the snail's pace of a hobbyist open source project with a handful of coders active at any time to a hypothetically AAA game studio with an apparently unlimited budget is pretty dishonest too.

What might surpass Star Citizen as a totally open MMO persistent open-world space sim/FPS hybrid free for all game? Nothing this decade probably. In fact if Star Citizen goes under, it'll probably scare off anyone from undertaking this sort of project again.

What might surpass Star Citizen as a space sim only (which is what a lot of people were hoping for to begin with)? Elite, No Man's Sky, Enemy Starfighter, the wealth of other small indie space sims that crop up every other month.

Why not Elite: Dangerous?

You know what I'd buy? A new Independence War.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Mongoose on December 22, 2015, 10:20:47 pm
I'm still waiting for this WOWZERS OPEN-WORLD EVERYTHING! phase to pass so that I can finally get a good, tightly-scripted singleplayer experience again.  Squadron 42 might have been my best bet at it, but not with this overall cluster****.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Hades on December 22, 2015, 10:50:46 pm
Squadron 42 will not ever be the place to go for a good singleplayer experience if what they've released of the writing is indicative of the product as a whole.

So far it's been pretty standard CR fare, but more like Freelancer than Wing Commander, so you know, historical elements largely uprooted and plopped into space instead (Vanduuls, for example). Unlike how Homeworld used historical allusions to strengthen the story it wanted to tell, Squadron 42 uses whole parts of history for the singular purpose of reliving that history but in space.

The "Oldman" character (actor is Mark Hamil instead of Gary Oldman because they ****ed up) is basically an archetype copy-pasted with "Oldman" substituted in.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 22, 2015, 10:53:54 pm
It will literally never get better than maslo's last two posts.  SC on HLP has peaked.  It will never reach such dizzying heights again.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Hades on December 22, 2015, 11:00:11 pm
John Romero already made Maslo his *****.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on December 22, 2015, 11:44:31 pm
[quote author=666maslo666 link=topic=90080.msg1808489#msg1808489 date=14508167
So yes, as I said, the delays did not result in a worse game, just a game that came too late, outmatched by competition.[/quote]

That's not something you can prove. It's speculation. Based on no facts whatsoever.

http://www.salon.com/2002/01/02/ion_storm/

A question I might ask, do you think a game is better by 9 core members walking out mid-project?
Do you actually believe that such an event would better a project? That such an environment where an event like that took place would produce the best game possible?

Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: X3N0-Life-Form on December 23, 2015, 01:10:57 am
So yes, as I said, the delays did not result in a worse game, just a game that came too late, outmatched by competition.
OK, even without discussing the first part of that statement, that still means that by the time SC comes out, it's gonna be outmatched by competition.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 23, 2015, 02:40:43 am
So yes, as I said, the delays did not result in a worse game, just a game that came too late, outmatched by competition.
OK, even without discussing the first part of that statement, that still means that by the time SC comes out, it's gonna be outmatched by competition.

You can only be outmatched by competition if there actually is a better competition. If no one except Romero made FPS games better than Doom at the end of 90's, Daikatana would be praised as a great innovative game after release, pushing the boundaries of the genre and gaming in general. Or look at Minecraft, all things considered, its a pretty mediocre game with a lot of wasted potential - the concept is great and unique, but the execution is lacking. I can easily imagine far better game based on the same concept if it was programmed as an AAA game, with a modern native engine and appropiate budget from the start. But since no one expect them attempts to do the same thing better, they have monopolized the market to great success, despite their lacking implementation and slow development.

RSI know they can take their time because nothing similar but better is coming along, and likely wont be for a long time. They also have so much money that they can afford some feature creep and delays. It would be a waste to not to use that money to make the game better, when they can.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: FrikgFeek on December 23, 2015, 02:44:22 am
Except Daikatana is mediocre at best and not worth a replay. Doom still has some of the tightest level design in an FPS. It's just a much better game than Daikatana.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: X3N0-Life-Form on December 23, 2015, 03:44:33 am
Given the recent boom in space games, I wouldn't be surprised if by the time SC comes out, there will be some fairly good competition, E:D certainly seems to be headed this way from what I read. And again, quality is not just about the amount of money you have, how you use that money is much more important.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: MatthTheGeek on December 23, 2015, 06:29:03 am
RSI know they can take their time because nothing similar but better is coming along, and likely wont be for a long time.
I'm not sure on what basis you can draw this conclusion.
- E:D is a pretty damn solid competitor on the open-world spaceship side.
- FSO has been superior for a decade and a half to anything SQ42 could ever hope to achieve from what we know about their progress and chris' general approach to storytelling
- Pretty much any FPS since the 90s is superior to the direction SC's FPS is heading. SC isn't even remotely close to achieve what something like AFF does in term of FPS/space hybridization.

You can't combine a bunch of mediocre (to put it lightly) parts of game and hope it'll make a great game. SC tries to do everything, and fails so hilariously at every single thing it does (aside from convincing people to pay for jpegs) it's not even funny.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: karajorma on December 23, 2015, 06:57:21 am
- FSO has been superior for a decade and a half to anything SQ42 could ever hope to achieve from what we know about their progress and chris' general approach to storytelling

Yeah, I'm (incredibly) biased, but I've never been worried that SC was ever going to steal Diaspora's thunder. Yeah they have a good graphics engine but I'd be immensely surprised if they were going to be able to use it to do anything remotely close to what I've already done in missions, let alone the stuff I have planned.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 23, 2015, 07:15:21 am
Did maslo have an aneurysm and forget all the competition SC has?  I mean, I know ignoring reality is a very common ability among SC fans, but claiming other games in the same genre don't exist is pushing it.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: MatthTheGeek on December 23, 2015, 07:30:49 am
It's not that SC has no competition, but that because it's trying to do everything and (that's the most important part) be the best at all of it, therefore it's in competition with pretty much every game from a vast array of subgenres.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Unknown Target on December 23, 2015, 08:57:10 am
While you guys raise good points, you're all being a bit biased. Even if FSO is a better space game, it's not a competitor to SC, at least, not in the same sense. FSO is a series of mods for a 17 year old game (wow) that requires a lot of knowledge to assemble (or at least effort). It also has no marketing. AFF is in a similar boat.

Where SC wins, and where it makes it seem like it's the only game in town, and how it builds people up like maslo, is in its marketing.

Saying FSO is a "competitor" to S42 is like saying a (and excuse me for the obscure comparison) Reprap http://reprap.org/mediawiki/images/thumb/7/71/Reprappro-Mendel.jpg/500px-Reprappro-Mendel.jpg
is a competitor to a Dremel Idea Builder https://3dprinter.dremel.com/sites/default/files/styles/dremel_popup_image/public/features/Genesis_2_0.jpg?itok=EKTbWI1L. One is a packaged product with technically less capabilities but a solid marketing base behind it and (in the case of the Dremel) a professional team designing and assembling it (with more reliability as a result). The other is a DIY kit that may have more capabilities but is also a lot fussier.

Technically, the two are competitors, but only for a relatively small subset of the population. For the vast majority, it's not, because one is a DIY approach and the other is a packaged product. Their marketbase is a Venn diagram, where in the middle are the modders and tinkerers and generally obsessed fans, like all of us, that are willing to put together such an old game and try it. Most of the people backing SC, at this point, I would imagine have never even heard of FS2, let alone played it, and I think many of them would point to Freelancer as their "last cool space game" (this is my personal experience, gathered from talking to people who are "into" space games - a lot of them don't know about FS2 and list Freelancer as the last space game they played).
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: karajorma on December 23, 2015, 09:23:05 am
The point of mentioning FS2_Open was not to claim it was a competitor but to show how easily something could come along and beat the crap out of SC. It wouldn't require anything that hard to make. A professional game company could probably make a product that was like FS2_Open in a year. All it would take is for some big name in gaming to come out as a fan of space sims, express their disappointment in SC and start up a kickstarter while promising to kick the **** out of feature creep.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: MatthTheGeek on December 23, 2015, 09:35:35 am
Hell just look at Strike Suit Zero. The non-suit flight model and the complexity of missions is pretty much comparable to FS2, it's a pretty recent game, and it's a better space shooter than SC on all accounts, and would probably beat SQ42 on plot and mission design by a significant margin. This already exists, it didn't need 80M to exist, and it already beats SC on some of its most important features.

SC is not in competition with everything, it's already superseeded by everything. It's obsolete before it's even made it past rough alpha stages.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on December 23, 2015, 10:01:40 am
While you guys raise good points, you're all being a bit biased. Even if FSO is a better space game, it's not a competitor to SC, at least, not in the same sense. FSO is a series of mods for a 17 year old game (wow) that requires a lot of knowledge to assemble (or at least effort). It also has no marketing. AFF is in a similar boat.
You are outdated, nowadays FSO has a easy to use installer that doesn't require much knowledge or effort. And standalone games like Diaspora and WoD (and I believe recently BP made the jump to stand alone too, to get rid of the dependency hell that was shackling it), are all super easy to install. Diaspora has an installer, WoD is extract and drop. It really can't get much easier and effort free than that.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Unknown Target on December 23, 2015, 10:44:13 am
While you guys raise good points, you're all being a bit biased. Even if FSO is a better space game, it's not a competitor to SC, at least, not in the same sense. FSO is a series of mods for a 17 year old game (wow) that requires a lot of knowledge to assemble (or at least effort). It also has no marketing. AFF is in a similar boat.
You are outdated, nowadays FSO has a easy to use installer that doesn't require much knowledge or effort. And standalone games like Diaspora and WoD (and I believe recently BP made the jump to stand alone too, to get rid of the dependency hell that was shackling it), are all super easy to install. Diaspora has an installer, WoD is extract and drop. It really can't get much easier and effort free than that.

A) No need to get personal.

B) You're assuming people have a basic knowledge of what a mod even is or how one would go about adding it. Heck, you're assuming they even know FSO exists.

C) Have you looked at the FS2 control screen recently? Compare that to...heck, any other game. It's pretty daunting for a beginner, especially someone used to easier control layouts like in an FPS. Even then, Strike Suit Zero is simpler to get into. Just because the installation process is simplified doesn't mean everything else is. But, I take your point: FSO is easier to get into now that you don't have to piece it together. Now, do you get my point - that comparing an open source game with lots of different options for how to take it (FSO install, BP install, Diaspora install, lots of controls from a time when games were much more complex, having to understand what the FSO even is, etc) to a clean studio game (which I'm not saying SC will be) is not a very fair comparison. It's a bit like apples and oranges, etc.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on December 23, 2015, 11:00:28 am
No Man's Sky is scheduled for a June 2016 release date.
Is Star Citizen coming out before then? Doubt it.

So that will be at least two games, ED:H and NMS which are out before Star Citizen and competitors.
If one wants to compare SQ42 to ED:H and NMS, well other games have already been out in that genre as mentioned.

I don't consider FS:O a competitor to anything current.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: MatthTheGeek on December 23, 2015, 11:02:08 am
Even though you certainly have a point about FSO's ingame control interface (but damn E:D ain't any better if not worst), this is partly why I brought up SSZ as a good example of solid, modern space shooter that manages handily to outperform SC, assuming SC development continues going in the same direction and with similar design choices and organization as we have seen so far.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Familiar on December 23, 2015, 11:34:16 am
FSO is not a competitor for ED or SC. It's ridiculos to even think of it :)
Because FSO is still waaaay better mission based space combat sim then anything nowadays. It's a Game with a Soul, immersive and fun. I've never played original FS or FS2, but played original wireframe Elite. I respect Braben, especially for his socks photo :) and support ED by buying both ED and Horizons, but what I really dream of.  Freespace: Dangerous if you wish, based on Cobra engine, but moddable.
As for Star Citizen ~ it is both funny and sad to see all the fans saying SC is so superior game without knowing what it eventually become. Now it is in so ridiculous state, some demo made of **** and sticks, even Chris is frustrated by trying to play with it. Not to mention his HOTAS allergy :)
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: StarSlayer on December 23, 2015, 12:05:53 pm
I think some folks are getting a little confused about why FSO was brought up.  The point I believe Matth and Kara were bringing up are the implications that some big budget Supercar may not deliver an overall better driving experience than a 68 Mustang fastback some folks modded up in a garage for fun.  Not that SQ42 and FSO are in any sort of meaningful competition, one's a commercial product and the other a hobby.  Star Citizen's success or failure is not going to be impacted by the existence of FSO.

That said if the 68 Stang beats the pants off some commercial SNAFU the garage tuners have every right to be smug.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: MatthTheGeek on December 23, 2015, 12:16:20 pm
Basically what we're saying is that better options already exist right now than what SC is going to become - with reasonable estimations based on the current state of things, their previous progress and their announced plans.

SC's scope covers gameplay from a lot of existing game genres, and although I wouldn't reasonably expect a game of this large a scope (even though CIG and the fans do) to have the best gameplay ever on each and every of its many parts, I would at least expect and require each part to be at least decent and vaguely enjoyable when taken separately. A reasonable estimation of SC's future wouldn't even bring the quality of these parts close to mediocre, let alone good.

For example, comparing SQ42 to FSO and SSZ is relevant. Even in the best of circumstances I wouldn't expect SQ42 taken on its own to surpass either of those, because SQ42 is part of a larger project and the interactions between the different parts implies sacrifices to make the whole game work - but I would expect it to be decent and somewhat enjoyable on its own. However, in the reasonable expectations of SC we have laid out before, SQ42 is looking to turn out horrendous, both in term of gameplay quality, depth and storytelling. The same can be said for each of the parts SC is made of (persistent universe, FPS, etc).

I hope this clarifies things. Basically even by lowering our standards to something coherent with the compromises a game with this large a scope will always be forced to do, we just can't reasonably expect - based on what we know and what we can expect to happen in the future - any part of SC to reach acceptable levels of quality and enjoyability. Let alone be the Best Damn Game Ever.

And that is comparing SC's parts with _existing_ games, not the games that will be released by the time SC comes out, assuming it does.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: 666maslo666 on December 23, 2015, 12:50:28 pm
It's not that SC has no competition, but that because it's trying to do everything and (that's the most important part) be the best at all of it, therefore it's in competition with pretty much every game from a vast array of subgenres.

I dont think its so simple. There might be better FPS games than SC and better space sims than SC, better RPGs.. but they are all separate games, what you do in one does not affect the others. Its precisely the fact that in SC all those things happen in one seamless universe that makes it unique. Until there is another game in development that allows you to take part in FPS action on a planet, then seamlessly fly to space, do space combat, then perform EVA and boarding FPS inside a spaceship while the battle outside is still going on, SC has no real competition in what its trying to achieve. Freespace does the space combat part really well, but lacks other parts. For example, just because both Freespace and Unreal Tournament exist and are good games in themselves, does not mean I wouldnt still want a combined game where you can fight with Shivans in a space fighter Freespace-style, then board a shivan cruiser and shoot them UT-style, seamlessly. Separate games, while good, do not scratch the same itch. A game can be more than a simple sum of its parts.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: MatthTheGeek on December 23, 2015, 12:51:32 pm
Did you actually read my last post? I've already addressed this.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Aesaar on December 23, 2015, 01:30:58 pm
CR's genius is that you can think of anything you want in a game, and SC's going to be **** at it.  Focusing on a few things and doing those really well is so last gen.  Truly next-gen games are all about having the most diverse assembly of **** possible.

Freespace 2 is just a really good space sim, but SC is a ****ty space sim AND a ****ty FPS, all in one package!  That's just better.

Number of features is more important than quality of features.  Think about it.
Title: Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Post by: Spoon on December 23, 2015, 04:10:13 pm
A) No need to get personal.
What?

B) You're assuming people have a basic knowledge of what a mod even is or how one would go about adding it.
I am going to get a bit personal here, because you are being down right weird. Where are you getting this from? Where in my post have I argued or 'assumed' anything of this?
Again though, you are outdated. The majority of mods are selectable options in the FSO installer. It's a