end of http://www.dereksmart.org/2015/07/interstellar-citizens/
So I really do hope and pray that RSI can pull this off, because if someone like me, with all my experience and expertise on this very same subject and who has spent half a lifetime trying can’t do it without sacrificing something (visual fidelity, performance, scope etc) in the process, and they, with all this money and star talent can’t do it either, then it’s safe to say that it simply can’t be done. At least not in our lifetime.
To be fair, he has spent a huge chunk of his life trying to accomplish exactly what Star Citizen is going for, and probably has a better idea than nearly anyone about how incredibly hard it is to pull off.
To be fair, he has spent a huge chunk of his life trying to accomplish exactly what Star Citizen is going for, and probably has a better idea than nearly anyone about how incredibly hard it is to pull off.
The only think CR is pulling off is feature creep and missing every single deadline he's ever set. Oh, he's also amazingly good at selling virtual spaceships for hundreds or thousands of dollars.To be fair, he has spent a huge chunk of his life trying to accomplish exactly what Star Citizen is going for, and probably has a better idea than nearly anyone about how incredibly hard it is to pull off.
the difference is that Roberts is so far pulling it off, admittedly there is a long way to go before SC can be considered vaguely ready so time will be the witness of if he succeeds, but given the history of the two people I have massively more faith in Roberts abilities as a project leader than I could have in Smart short of releasing a very well polished game.
like I say in my last post, SC is a long way from being considered complete so time will ultimately show if my faith in Roberts is justified but given past histories, Roberts has a history of successful games, Smart's reputation crashed and burned somewhere in the 90s, who knows, maybe the 2010s will be when we turn on Roberts, I hope not because I respect the hell out of him but just as SC succeeding is a real possibility, so is it crashing and burning a large chunk of the internet world.I wouldn't say CR has a history of good games. I'd say he has a history of promising the world and delivering mediocrity. That's what Freelancer was, and I have absolutely no reason to expect he'll do any better here. Back when the KS first started, I thought maybe he'd learned from his past mistakes, but no, it's getting more and more obvious that he isn't able to control his ambition. The fact that CIG has missed every single deadline they've ever set is ample evidence of that, as is the fact that what they have delivered still isn't fun to play. Diaspora, which doesn't have a budget at all, managed to make a more fun newtonian combat sim than CR's $80M dogfight module.
Am I missing something here? Because apart from the hideously tl dr career story he offers about himself, I see no legal issues anywhere. Just an opinion. One that I even share at general.
So disagree with me. But until you come up with better reasoning than "you're an ass", don't expect me to care.
Every single piece of art you saw last year has been revamped since then, every single ship has either been reworked or is scheduled to be.
Duke Nukem Forever had a "when it's done" release schedule.
You can't release when you're constantly remaking assets because production is taking so long those assets are becoming dated.Quote from: Ben Lesnick, https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/comment/5283349/#Comment_5283349Every single piece of art you saw last year has been revamped since then, every single ship has either been reworked or is scheduled to be.
As for the quality of the finished product, I after trying out the revamped flight model, I am again pretty optimistic. Its now pretty close to Diaspora actually. And the fact that they are focusing on technical/simulation aspects perhaps at the expense of story and gameplay might be worrying for people more interested in the story and vanilla game, but a big part of why I look forward to SC is the modding/total conversion potential of having such an advanced space opera game engine available. Even if the SC base game turns out to be a meh tech demo, I expect the game engine to spawn some awesome mods/TCs over time (Freespace Citizen?), or even entire new games by being licensed to third parties.
Its a "good" thing that we are now in the age when graphics are already not advancing very much and releasing your game even a few years out of date does not mean its technically dated, especially when you targeted only the high-end PCs during development. If Crysis was released today, it would still compare favorably and that game is 8 years old! Consolitis has slowed down technical progress, which might be bad for gaming overall, but its good for delayed games - even a few years delay now does not mean your game will be dated on release.
I might be making enemies here, but I'm with Derek on this one. Yes, I KNOW. I KNOW. Don't lecture me on Derek. I KNOW. You just have to read his post. Jesus, what a personality. BUT STILL. He. Has. A. Point. And at some point in time, he will have a LEGAL point as well.
This is going to bomb. And hard.
Compare Star Citizen to Elite Dangerous: Frontier had a really good idea of what they wanted their game to be at release. They got some funding, made the game, released it in a playable state and got to work on incremental add-ons after launch, a strategy people seem generally happy about.
Elite: Dangerous is honestly pretty shallow and while not a bad game, it can get repetitive fast. It is more like Arena Commander or FPS module in terms of complexity rather than Star Citizen itself. Arena Commander release can be considered partially iterative development, too. It is playable and I would even say that it is fun.
Also, while iterative development is fine, sometimes you just have to wait it out until core engine features are properly developed and there is not shortcut possible. That is the stage where SC is now. I have a feeling that once multicrew space combat, FPS and 64-bit update is properly integrated into one map, which should be done this year hopefully, we will see a lot more of iterative releases and playable content.This is not happening by the end of the year in any meaningful capacity, here's why and what you fail to understand about game development:
Chris Roberts is basically George Lucas because he lacks a natural filter, he has to have someone or some entity to reign in his insanity, hold his hand and point him in the right direction.This. Chris Roberts is an amazing idea guy. He's the kind of guy whose ideas revolutionize something, the way George Lucas revolutionised special effects and SF space combat. You listen to CR talk, and it pumps you up. You want to play these ideas he has. It made for a perfect Kickstarter.
Elite: Dangerous is honestly pretty shallow and while not a bad game, it can get repetitive fast. It is more like Arena Commander or FPS module in terms of complexity rather than Star Citizen itself.
That's not the point. You're right, E:D is a bit shallow, but it is getting deeper with every major update and most importantly, it's released and people are playing it right now.
Compare that to Arena Commander: Last I checked, there were something like 4 playable ships on three maps in 4 game modes. That is after it has been out for a year.
This is not happening by the end of the year in any meaningful capacity, here's why and what you fail to understand about game development:
The FPS segment of Starcitizen and the space combat of Star Citizen are both effectively two different games that need to be merged.
I see no reason why at least core game mechanics shouldnt be playable by the end of the year. That is, integrating FPS and space combat is challenging but perfectly doable with resources SC has. You can already get out of your ship and walk around it in Arena Commander, even tough it is a bit buggy. Moreover, this was the aim of SC from the start, it is not bloat or feature creep at all, it is a core feature.
You people are just not patient enough and expect a constant stream of goodies, but that is not always possible during development. Original SC release was by the end of 2015. Considering how ambitious it is, it is not unreasonable to expect a year or two of delay. So, SC has until the end of 2017 to live up to my expectations. If it doesnt by then, I will become concerned, but not before.
And those Elite ships are less detailed than SC ones.
I see no reason why at least core game mechanics shouldnt be playable by the end of the year. That is, integrating FPS and space combat is challenging but perfectly doable with resources SC has. You can already get out of your ship and walk around it in Arena Commander, even tough it is a bit buggy. Moreover, this was the aim of SC from the start, it is not bloat or feature creep at all, it is a core feature.It's not going to happen by the end of the year because they don't even have a standalone shooter ready yet, and have no ETA until they do.
You people are just not patient enough and expect a constant stream of goodies, but that is not always possible during development. Original SC release was by the end of 2015. Considering how ambitious it is, it is not unreasonable to expect a year or two of delay. So, SC has until the end of 2017 to live up to my expectations. If it doesnt by then, I will become concerned, but not before.I don't expect a constant stream of goodies. I expect a bit of substance. Three years in, and CIG has delivered a mediocre dogfight game which still isn't representative of the gameplay they want, according to CIG themselves. They have delivered nothing else. Not even good information. Here's a list of questions someone posted over in Ben Lesnick's "everything is fine, there are no American tanks in Baghdad" megathread:
CR mentioned that there are three types of gameplay planned: solo, small group, and large group. How does large group play work? Where do they fight, what do they fight over, how do they fight? How are those groups managed? How does conflict work when the organizations exceed the capacity of a single instance? How will NPC groups like the UEE interact with large orgs, particularly if an org becomes particularly powerful?
How does one control a station? What are the benefits of controlling that station? How does one prevent others from using that station, and how do others take control from the owner? How long does that take to occur? How big of a conflict is it? Can stations be upgraded, if so to what extent?
How do I fly from point A to point B? We know of an auto-pilot mechanic and we've seen a q-drive animation, but that's it. How will sensors work outside of an instance? What can I see? What can't I see? How do the instancing mechanics and sensor mechanics work together so I can intercept someone? If we're both going 0.2c can I even intercept someone if I'm behind them? Do I have to follow nav points or can I just freely fly from point to point? How do players ambush each other?
How does one find a jump point? How does one explore a planet or other unknown area? Is an instance dynamically generated for me to walk around? How big is it? How much can I see? What can I do? How much fresh content is there, and how much repetition? How often will new jump points be generated? How will players even know when to look for a jump point, and when they're wasting their time?
How big is a solar system? What is it equivalent to in terms of content? How many locations are there? How many players is a single system designed to hold? How long will it take to cross a system (we've heard multiple values)?
What percentage of the universe is divided between lawless and lawful space? What happens if I commit a crime in lawless space, how does that affect my reputation in lawful space? What resources will be available in lawless space that can't be obtained anywhere? How will CIG encourage PvP in lawless space since it's supposed to be the "no holds barred" super risky area equivalent to Demon Souls in terms of difficulty?
How are ships supposed to fly in terms of their feel? Is the current implementation of Arena Commander how they're envisioned? How is a multi-crew ship different from a small ship? How long is combat between two equal ships supposed to take? What role will missiles play, and is the current implementation how it's envisioned? What will guns be differentiated from each other so I might want a repeater for one scenario and a mass driver for another?
How will Star Citizen become controller agnostic?
What is the expected feel of FPS? Is it supposed to be short and brutal? If so, how will FPS gameplay be encouraged if death is supposed to be meaningful?
How will a player return to the game after death, and what will the penalty of death actually be in terms of time and asset loss? How will CIG make death a meaningful penalty while still encouraging risky gameplay? If the mechanic involves a pilot being "rescued" how will that work? If I "kill" a pilot and he's rescued, does that mean he has a record of me attacking him? What is the difference in penalty between being rescued and dying such that you play your next of kin?
How will two capital ships fight? Will they share an instance, or will the distances be such that they effectively fight across instances? How many players will be expected to pilot a capital ship? What is the benefit of having a crew station manned by a PC versus a NPC? Since capital ships are always persistent within the game universe, what happens when nobody from an organization is available to man it?
To what extent will players be required to visit store after store as opposed to just getting what they want over the local equivalent of the Internet? How often will I run into someone who doesn't own the place but has an arrangement with the people who do? How will planetside interaction be engaging and fun instead of a chore like it is with most games?
How many characters can I have per account? Is there any way for me to find out if one character shares the same account as another? What exactly does a "NPC slot" entail and what are the benefits of having it?
How are crimes recorded? How far does a record of a crime propagate? Is a record limited to a system, region, entire Empire? How does a player pay for his crimes? How does jail work? How does being captured by a bounty hunter work? What about enslaving another player?
How does fuel work? How big of a role will fuel play within the game? Will there be multiple types of fuel? How far is a ship expected to be able to travel before refueling? What happens if a ship runs out of fuel, can they be trapped? How does a ship scoop fuel from a gas giant? Will fuel be a meaningful resource with scarcity (particularly in the lawless regions), or will it be something similar to Elite where it's more of an inconvenience?
How will instances actually work? What are the parameters for matchmaking, and are there places the matchmaker is less likely to work than others? What will prevent an instance from exceeding capacity? What will the players see when that happens? How big is the capacity of an instance, and what determines that capacity? Is it possible to "break" an instance by (for example) having all of your crew jump out of an airlock?
How many hours of gameplay will it take to earn an Aurora? Avenger? Cutlass? Super Hornet? Constellation? Reclaimer? Idris?
How does salvage work? How are components extracted? What are the legalities of salvage? Will wrecks persist once an instance is empty, so that I can pop a ship and then bring in my buddies to take it?
What will be done to ensure that gameplay is meaningful and engaging, particularly for multi-crew play? Why would someone want to be the missile loader after they've done it the first time?
How will repairing your ship work? What level of skill will be involved, or will it be similar to the healing gun for the FPS? How long will repairs take?
How will piracy work? How do I find a prize? How do I get them to dump their cargo? If they resist, how do I ensure their cargo stays intact while we fight?
How does the modularity system work? To what extent can I change the functionality of a ship? We know of cargo pods and modules being inserted, but not of what they'll do or what the benefits are.
How does the painting system work? How much can I customize the appearance of my ship? Can I get a custom logo for my organization? What's the process for getting that logo into the game?
How much will insurance cost? How long will it take for me to get a ship back through insurance? Minutes? Hours? Days? Weeks?
How is inventory managed? How will I see what my person has on them? How do I put on armor or store a weapon? How long does it take to put on a suit, for example if there's a hole in my ship and I'm losing oxygen? If I shoot someone is there any limitation on what I can take from their body?
How are credits managed? Is it possible to steal credits from someone else? Are there physical representations of credits, or is it entirely electronic? How do alien entities handle UEE currency? What about pirates?
How does ship armor work?
How does life support work? Am I limited by the number of crew I can carry? Will I run out of oxygen if I have too many people? What about air breathing cargo? Can I carry cows, and if so do I need to upgrade my life support system to accommodate them?
What'll eventually happen is, if the game releases then it'll be years in the future and the final product will be a mediocre mess that had to cut back on a lot of the promised features in order to finally release. It'll be likeGTA5Freelancer but it'll be a failure on a much larger magnitude.
What'll eventually happen is, if the game releases then it'll be years in the future and the final product will be a mediocre mess that had to cut back on a lot of the promised features in order to finally release. It'll be likeGTA5Freelancer but it'll be a failure on a much larger magnitude.
FIFY. :)
As soon as I read about Star Citizen and saw who was behind it, I was all "Woo hoo!!" Then 3.14159 seconds later I remembered all the promises (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freelancer_(video_game)#Development) for Freelancer.
Not having ever really been interested in the game, what I really take away from this is a perfect example of the reasons I think kickstarters are generally a terrible idea and I will never participate in one, along with pre-orders and early access. Hopes, dreams, and intentions don't earn my money. Product (or service) does.
I liked Freelancer and thought it turned out well. Not necessarily what people had been expecting, but it's a fine game in its own right.
I'm expecting Star Citizen will turn out similar. A fun game, eventually delivered well behind schedule, but not quite the game that people thought they'd be getting.
I agree; Freelancer is a fun game. My only real beef with it is the deliberate lack of joystick support. I guess it was done to try to broaden the appeal, but it seems all it did was alienate many of the genre's hardcore fans, who already had joysticks and wanted to use them. I didn't pick up my copy until I found it in a bargain bin for $2. When older games like FreeSpace could already be played with or without a joystick, I never understood why joystick support was removed completely.
I think the mouse-first design is why the game has lasted so long.
I'm putting my faith on No Man's Sky. Adventure, space travel, surprise and exploration.
I'm putting my faith on No Man's Sky. Adventure, space travel, surprise and exploration.
I don't get what the obsession with Newtonian flight mechanics is with the current crop of space sim fans. I thought the original Frontier had pretty well proven that they're not actually fun?
I'm putting my faith on No Man's Sky. Adventure, space travel, surprise and exploration.
Limit Theory all day erry day
Also Enemy Starfighter.
Not having ever really been interested in the game, what I really take away from this is a perfect example of the reasons I think kickstarters are generally a terrible idea and I will never participate in one, along with pre-orders and early access. Hopes, dreams, and intentions don't earn my money. Product (or service) does.Personally I tend to back Kickstarters based on the scale of what's being delivered. So far I've successfully received rewards from 3 projects, and those involved dubbing/releasing an anime movie, creating an anime short, and publishing a webcomic book. Most of the other ones I've backed are in the same vein, and even for the one or two larger ones, they have clearly-defined scopes and have updated regularly enough that I feel confident about getting the finished product. With something as pie-in-the-sky as SC, I'd definitely wait until a nearly-finished product was on the table before committing anything to it. It still utterly amazes me that people have dumped tens of thousands of dollars on it for virtual spaceships that haven't even been modeled yet.
Not having ever really been interested in the game, what I really take away from this is a perfect example of the reasons I think kickstarters are generally a terrible idea and I will never participate in one, along with pre-orders and early access. Hopes, dreams, and intentions don't earn my money. Product (or service) does.
Immersion.Silly me, I thought immersion was defined by good writing and plotting, not being able to open a storage cabinet.
Warhead and its successor mantis.
I wouldn't be surprised if Derek Smart joins this discussion himself sooner or later. :D
Also Enemy Starfighter.
That piece is all over the place. At first he notes that Derek's "trolling" might be the "best thing ever" to happen to SC, at the end he's reaching the obvious opposite conclusion. It is a TL DR piece. All that was needed to be said was "DEREK IS TRYING TO CREATE BAD PRESS".
But seriously though, one thing I agree with him. Star Citizen release date gets further away and away, I starting to believe it will never be released...
But seriously though, one thing I agree with him. Star Citizen release date gets further away and away, I starting to believe it will never be released...
It'll release, but they're going to have to make some hard decisions about what major features to cut out.
I wouldn't be surprised if Derek Smart joins this discussion himself sooner or later. :D
As for Freelancer, I thought it was very good. It may have been cut down from its original plans but has a great main campaign and universe to explore, and the mouse feels fine for the game's movement mechanics. Actually, Freelancer is very highly regarded on other forums I go to. I think we've been spoiled by FS around here. :p
...what you want out of a game.
But seriously though, one thing I agree with him. Star Citizen release date gets further away and away, I starting to believe it will never be released...
It'll release, but they're going to have to make some hard decisions about what major features to cut out.
At that time, if single-player ends up there, that's when i'll grumble about getting my money back.
not before.
I also want it to succeed because I think the earth would melt from Mr. Smart's smugness if he turned out to be right.
Well, Freelancer was awesome. It was unfinished and didn't have half the features promised, but boy was it awesome. I'm confident that whatever Star Citizen ends up as, it'll at least be fun to play. And unlike with Freelancer, they have a way of further developing the game after the general release. Back then, patching content updates in was simply not done (expansion packs were major affairs), but with an MMO like SC, that's the usual way to go. It's unlikely to have all the features promised at "release", but they'll probably keep updating it well after that. After some years, it might end up with most of the promised stuff added in.Freelancer wasn't awesome. It was one dimensional in writing and in gameplay, the game's art style was hilariously bad, and so poorly mismanaged Chris Roberts had to sell his company and stop being director of the game for it to release!
Well, Freelancer was awesome. It was unfinished and didn't have half the features promised, but boy was it awesome. I'm confident that whatever Star Citizen ends up as, it'll at least be fun to play. And unlike with Freelancer, they have a way of further developing the game after the general release. Back then, patching content updates in was simply not done (expansion packs were major affairs), but with an MMO like SC, that's the usual way to go. It's unlikely to have all the features promised at "release", but they'll probably keep updating it well after that. After some years, it might end up with most of the promised stuff added in.Whether you think Freelancer was good or not (I don't), Chris Roberts worked on Freelancer for all of 18 months (out of 4-5 years), and it's only because he stopped working on it that the game even made it to release. If it hadn't been for Microsoft buying his company and forcing him off the project, Digital Anvil would have gone bankrupt and the game would have gone nowhere. He was not responsible for Freelancer, and I don't get how his name is associated with it, except as a way to show how he's making the same mistakes with SC.
realedit: However if you want what is looking to be a perfect Freelancer 2.0 in the sense of unfinished, likely sold to a publisher to finish and CR stepping down then look no further than Star CitizenNo publisher is going to save Star Citizen. No publisher would ever touch a game that potentially has $90M in liabilities.
Well, Freelancer was awesome. It was unfinished and didn't have half the features promised, but boy was it awesome. I'm confident that whatever Star Citizen ends up as, it'll at least be fun to play. And unlike with Freelancer, they have a way of further developing the game after the general release. Back then, patching content updates in was simply not done (expansion packs were major affairs), but with an MMO like SC, that's the usual way to go. It's unlikely to have all the features promised at "release", but they'll probably keep updating it well after that. After some years, it might end up with most of the promised stuff added in.Whether you think Freelancer was good or not (I don't), Chris Roberts worked on Freelancer for all of 18 months (out of 4-5 years), and it's only because he stopped working on it that the game even made it to release. If it hadn't been for Microsoft buying his company and forcing him off the project, Digital Anvil would have gone bankrupt and the game would have gone nowhere. He was not responsible for Freelancer, and I don't get how his name is associated with it, except as a way to show how he's making the same mistakes with SC.
The last game CR released was Starlancer, and it was not a good game.realedit: However if you want what is looking to be a perfect Freelancer 2.0 in the sense of unfinished, likely sold to a publisher to finish and CR stepping down then look no further than Star CitizenNo publisher is going to save Star Citizen. No publisher would ever touch a game that potentially has $90M in liabilities.
Be aware that there is a point where hate starts to not look serious, but outright hilarious to anyone who reads it, especially if the quoted "facts" do not match with reality.Yes, Starlancer came before Freelancer. When did I say otherwise? I said it's the last game CR released, which is true because he didn't release Freelancer. He was forced off the dev team by Microsoft as part of the deal for them buying Digital Anvil in 2000, probably because his management nearly ran his company into the ground. This isn't hate, it's literally what happened.
(Starlancer came way before Freelancer and arguably neither was half bad.)
Peace?
Don't take me wrong... I understand people being wary or sceptic and I wouldn't even call myself all THAT optimistic towards Star Citizen myself at this point.... but still ... seriously? ;-)
On the other hand, Starlancer wasn't half bad, it was all bad . The AI was beyond ****, the missions were typical CR fare (ie bad), and te story managed to be more trite and cliched than Wing Commander's. I do not understand how anyone can defend it.People are willing to defend anything you know, such as monarchy or WW2 German lunchbox tanks.
The correct term is Nazi ****boxes.On the other hand, Starlancer wasn't half bad, it was all bad . The AI was beyond ****, the missions were typical CR fare (ie bad), and te story managed to be more trite and cliched than Wing Commander's. I do not understand how anyone can defend it.People are willing to defend anything you know, such as monarchy or WW2 German lunchbox tanks.
Freelancer was in his mind a complete different game then the Release Version.
Nope. The last Chris Roberts Game was Wing Commander 4. On Starlancer his Brother has the full Control of the game. Chris Name just was on the cover.Oh, really? I thought that was just Privateer 2. Ok, well, on one hand, Erin is pretty good about actually releasing games. On the other hand, it doesn't bode well for SQ42 in terms of quality.
Freelancer was in his mind a complete different game then the Release Version. Freelancer should have a onboard Computer with Updates you can buy and fly from System to System. If an enemy Encounter you have several tactics on you Computer and you just aiming with the mouse on hardpoints to take out weapons, engine and so on.That's right, the Freelancer in his mind was impossible for the time. But he didn't realize that, and he nearly bankrupted his company trying to make it. It's becoming increasingly obvious to me that he's making the same mistakes again.
You could call it Open-World-Rail-Space-Combat-Simulation. We all know, this is maybe even today not possible or hard to make. For 1999 impossible. 2001 he left Anvil and goes to Hollywood. He even does not help the Freelancer Team as the press have written.
Nope. The last Chris Roberts Game was Wing Commander 4. On Starlancer his Brother has the full Control of the game. Chris Name just was on the cover.Oh, really? I thought that was just Privateer 2. Ok, well, on one hand, Erin is pretty good about actually releasing games. On the other hand, it doesn't bode well for SQ42 in terms of quality.
And how Foundry 42 is making a singleplayer campaign when CIG haven't figured out a way to make their base gameplay fun is beyond me.QuoteFreelancer was in his mind a complete different game then the Release Version. Freelancer should have a onboard Computer with Updates you can buy and fly from System to System. If an enemy Encounter you have several tactics on you Computer and you just aiming with the mouse on hardpoints to take out weapons, engine and so on.That's right, the Freelancer in his mind was impossible for the time. But he didn't realize that, and he nearly bankrupted his company trying to make it. It's becoming increasingly obvious to me that he's making the same mistakes again.
You could call it Open-World-Rail-Space-Combat-Simulation. We all know, this is maybe even today not possible or hard to make. For 1999 impossible. 2001 he left Anvil and goes to Hollywood. He even does not help the Freelancer Team as the press have written.
And all I am saying is that I find it funny when people are all so sure about how a project will turn out before the fact ... and pretend to know exactly who is repeating what mistakes and what not ...
Actually, once you have the "walking around your ship" part done, I would suspect that a full FPS expansion would be more a matter of adding assets. Remember that this component was supposed to be part of the game from the start. Star Citizen's scope is enormous, so I'd guess a lot of it would have to be highly modular, with a powerful scripting system capable of handling multitude of situations. If the weapons code can be used to handle character weapons as well as ship based ones and planetary surfaces you fly over are detailed enough not to look bad from first person, then you can have the FPS component with relatively little additional features (basically boils down to enabling characters to have and use weapons). Ultimately, once you can walk around and shoot, what more is there to it? An FPS expansion was at some point even planned for FS2Open, dunno what became of that (probably nobody actually cared enough to do it).
Actually, once you have the "walking around your ship" part done, I would suspect that a full FPS expansion would be more a matter of adding assets.
And then on the side there's also the danger that games like No Man's Sky and Elite Dangerous could introduce gameplay that Roberts feels must be put into Star Citizen, thereby expanding the scope even further.
The last game CR released was Starlancer, and it was not a good game.
On the other hand, Starlancer wasn't half bad, it was all bad . The AI was beyond ****, the missions were typical CR fare (ie bad), and the story managed to be more trite and cliched than Wing Commander's (without having Wing Commander's decent cast of characters). I do not understand how anyone can defend it.
The last game CR released was Starlancer, and it was not a good game.
It was a good game.QuoteOn the other hand, Starlancer wasn't half bad, it was all bad . The AI was beyond ****, the missions were typical CR fare (ie bad), and the story managed to be more trite and cliched than Wing Commander's (without having Wing Commander's decent cast of characters). I do not understand how anyone can defend it.
you have poor judgment.
The gameplay was fine, the graphics were nice, the atmosphere was there.
The story was nothing to write home about, but so few are.
you have poor judgment.You have poor taste.
Actually, once you have the "walking around your ship" part done, I would suspect that a full FPS expansion would be more a matter of adding assets.
This is not an insignificant obstacle. Witness the fact EVE Online was unable to overcome it.
Posts like this make me wish it wasn't an abuse of moderator power to warn people for having poor tnd wrong opinions.
I really hope that all those famous actors will be actually seen in cutscenes, instead of just providing voiceovers. FMVs gone out of fashion except for C&C series, but maybe its time to bring them back.
And how can you tell you are not the one with poor taste here? :) Maybe in a decade, Starlancer will be rediscovered and hailed as a refined classic of videogame writing (don't worry if it doesn't have deeped meanings, they'll find some to tack on)? :)Because by this point, Trashman is pretty much HLP's meme for bad taste, and he never ceases to demonstrate how warranted that reputation is.
It's the amount of ways you can misinterpret a work times its length. It's good for measuring how much time a given work can sustain a literature major. Generations of them made a living off "analyzing" such classics such as "War and Peace", for which this value is highest. :) Scales linearly with length and complexity, so FS2 and Planetscape: Torment are good candidates, while more straightforward (and more enjoyable) works such as WC3 rank low.It singlehandedly invalidates your opinion regarding creative writing the same way being a young-earth creationist would invalidate your opinion on evolution. I've never met anyone who takes pride in their ignorance the way you do. It genuinely astounds me.
i agree that chris roberts' writing is being sold short by elitists like aesaar, for instance if you examine the backstory to star citizen closely you can pick up hints that it's actually a subtle metaphor for the fall of the roman empireI love how no one recognized PH's sarcasm here.
Agreed. Especially with all-star cast that he promises. Really, say what you will about WC3, but you can't deny its FMVs were excellent. They even had friggin' Luke Skywalker. :) This continued into WC4 and (to a somewhat lesser extent) WCP. Squadron 42 should be the focus, with "old-timey" FMVs (made with modern filming technology, of course), story as good as that of WC4 and pretty in-game graphics. Remember the original Wing Commander 3 CDs that were labeled "Origin Interactive Movie"? :) That's what I would aim at.Nope, pretty sure CR already said SQ42 is mocap the whole way.
I really hope that all those famous actors will be actually seen in cutscenes, instead of just providing voiceovers. FMVs gone out of fashion except for C&C series, but maybe its time to bring them back.
As for you? Well, you said this and actually meant it:Here's where you're wrong. I didn't mean it. You even quoted a smiley I put on into of this comment! What you quote is a sarcastic jab atIt's the amount of ways you can misinterpret a work times its length. It's good for measuring how much time a given work can sustain a literature major. Generations of them made a living off "analyzing" such classics such as "War and Peace", for which this value is highest. :) Scales linearly with length and complexity, so FS2 and Planetscape: Torment are good candidates, while more straightforward (and more enjoyable) works such as WC3 rank low.It singlehandedly invalidates your opinion regarding creative writing the same way being a young-earth creationist would invalidate your opinion on evolution. I've never met anyone who takes pride in their ignorance the way you do. It genuinely astounds me.
Yeah, going full FMV on cutscenes is a seriously stupid thing to do these days. Even if you spend millions of dollars on it, the best you can hope for is some sort of Star Wars Prequel level thing that looks kinda phony and out of place; Modern motion/performance capture rigs are so good at reading the actor's performances and translating them into mocap data which can then be used completely in-engine that the costs associated with doing FMVs in terms of costume and prop design is just not worth it.I haven't seen a single in-engine cutscene that would truly capture actor's expressions, motion and "acting" in general (though some come close). SW prequels had a somewhat silly plot and way overdone FX, but good actors can get you a good FMV. Anything that would require flashy FX should be done in-engine anyway, with player actively participating, IMO. Actors should be used where we see the characters interact and emote.
Yeah, going full FMV on cutscenes is a seriously stupid thing to do these days. Even if you spend millions of dollars on it, the best you can hope for is some sort of Star Wars Prequel level thing that looks kinda phony and out of place; Modern motion/performance capture rigs are so good at reading the actor's performances and translating them into mocap data which can then be used completely in-engine that the costs associated with doing FMVs in terms of costume and prop design is just not worth it.I haven't seen a single in-engine cutscene that would capture actor's expressions, motion and "acting" in general. SW prequels had a somewhat silly plot and way overdone FX, but good actors can get you a good FMV. FX should be done in-engine.
Here's where you're wrong. I didn't mean it. You even quoted a smiley I put on into of this comment! What you quote is a sarcastic jab atHere's what you don't get: just because I can differentiate between a good story and one that's fun but mindless doesn't mean I can't appreciate the latter. It isn't a black-and-white "the only stories worth reading/watching/playing are the ones that are smart and able to actually say interesting things about the themes they address". Hell, I genuinely like WH40k.people like youliterary critics who consider everything that is not a bizarre philosophical tract to be utter crap (I do not believe I got a chance of responding to that properly in that thread). Being deep and thoughtful is fine, but it doesn't mean a work is well written (i.e. actually fun to read). In retrospect, I probably should have gone ahead with my original idea of defining literary value as the amount of Jesuses in purgatory that you can find in a given work, but I didn't want to count on you frequenting TVTropes. People who grade books on "literary value" are the people who miss out on a lot of genuinely fun reads.
This thread should be renamed to something like "Star Citizen: This Week in Stupid", where we discuss the latest facepalms and laugh at them.I picked up on it because mocking SC is a common group activity in #bp, and PH is as merciless as I am. He also enjoys taunting me into ranting about how SC is a really ****ty look at the fall of the Roman Empire because I've got a history degree and that's my area of expertise.
I mean, I don't like to see money burn, but at least I can laugh at it. And no, I didn't recognize PH's sarcasm. He's refined his art. (although I'm smugly smiling at Aesaar's jab at our lack of sarcasm detectors working properly next to Dragon's reply above).
We feel like we’ve made huge strides and have completed a good portion of the underlying technology that will enable us to make Star Citizen the game that your sources say can’t be made.
Assassinating Derek Smart's character isn't hard to do though...
He does provide the answers to the accusations. That's important. Here's one tidbit that was quite jarring to me though:QuoteWe feel like we’ve made huge strides and have completed a good portion of the underlying technology that will enable us to make Star Citizen the game that your sources say can’t be made.
"have completed... a *GOOD PORTION* of the underlying technology ... that *WILL* enable us to make SC..."
Amazing. Incredible. Fall 2015 and they still don't have the "underlying technology" that enables them to make the ****ing game. Jesus ****ing Christ.
because mocking SC is a common group activity in #bpFunny, we do this in #wod-dev as well. It's a pretty fun activity~
And it shouldn't have. If you're a legendary game developer forging a new path in the industry, the ravings of a man who's been known as a clown since the Usenet era should be the easiest thing in the world to dismiss. And yet here Roberts is, trading personal insults and skirting around the legally-actionable accusations against his company.
Except the article isn't basing its claims on Derek. You know, details...
Should have just let a PR person handle it, what is CR doing?
Except the article isn't basing its claims on Derek. You know, details...
Well, Chris Roberts seems to think they do.
Except the article isn't basing its claims on Derek. You know, details...
Well, Chris Roberts seems to think they do.
And he has absolutely no evidence of that. It's completely dishonest and it smacks of desperation.
I kind of imagine these two still sperging against each other when they are ninety years old, about whose lawn is greener and whose dog left which poop where...
I kind of imagine these two still sperging against each other when they are ninety years old, about whose lawn is greener and whose dog left which poop where...
Derek will probably kill himself once Star Citizen succeeds. Nothing left for him to live for, really.
I kind of imagine these two still sperging against each other when they are ninety years old, about whose lawn is greener and whose dog left which poop where...
Derek will probably kill himself once Star Citizen succeeds. Nothing left for him to live for, really.
That's a horrendous attitude
"A lot of people who don't know me, who don't play my games think I've failed and I don't care," Smart says. "When I look at my bank account, I just laugh."
And it shouldn't have. If you're a legendary game developer forging a new path in the industry, the ravings of a man who's been known as a clown since the Usenet era should be the easiest thing in the world to dismiss. And yet here Roberts is, trading personal insults and skirting around the legally-actionable accusations against his company.
Those emails are personal correspondence with employees, publishing them would be unethical.
You are assuming that the sources have the emails. The way I understood it, these sources are claiming to be memories of alleged former employees, so they probably do not have any access to CIG internal communications anymore, and its just "he said, she said" situation. In addition to that, these emails may contain personal information about other employees, not just about sources themselves, and it would indeed be unethical and unprofessional to publish them without agreement of everyone involved. Especially if the emails may contain some criticism of employee performances. You dont just publish internal comms because someone said you are racist with no evidence to back it up..
It has all the hallmarks of that and yet again and again the accusations have proven disturbingly accurate.
Missing a deadline isn't a big deal, no. Missing every deadline is. Since the kickstarter, CIG have met precisely one deadline (the social module), and that's a deadline they set after they'd already missed it three times. That in itself shows serious issues with management.It has all the hallmarks of that and yet again and again the accusations have proven disturbingly accurate.
I dont think any accusations were proven to be disturbingly accurate yet. Its all he said she said right now.
They did miss the deadline when it comes to Squadron 42, tough. However, missed deadline is not such a big deal. SC is a complex project, and it takes at least 4-5 years to develop an AAA game, there is no way around it. Nine women do not make a baby in one month. Two years was too optimistic, I expect at least another year and a half until the game approaches something which could be considered "finished". In the meantime, "baby persistent universe" featuring a single playable system as seen in Gamescom demo should be out before the end of the year. It will be the point when the game comes together, instead of separate modules. We will be in a much better position to judge overall gameplay when that is released.
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/14979-Chairmans-Response-To-The-Escapist
"Hmmm... how do I calm the agitated masses and restore dignity to my game in this time of trouble"
*begins to type out the word 'Gamergate'*
On anonymous sources:I love the comments to that. "Anonymous sources have no credibility. Put your name on it if you want someone to believe you.". Yeah, what the hell is wrong with these people, not being willing to throw their careers away over this?
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/video-games/14727-The-Escapist-Explains-Its-Star-Citizen-Sources-Vetting-and-Respo
Escapist explains its sources, why Robert's response wasn't initially included, etcetera.
Well once we deplete our aquifers out here, I know I can find some fresh haterade in this thread.
Honestly from what I've seen.
Currently, what ship you get in game depends upon what package you buy. Better packages with better ships slaughter ships from cheaper packages. I've heard it's nigh impossible to win with an Aurora against a better ship.
There is a plan for players to earn UEC in-game, which they can use to buy better ships. This is not in the beta.
What is in the game is the chance to REC, which allows you to save up an rent a ship for one week.
What is available now is purely a pay-to-win Early Access game with the promise that it will be fair when released but currently people are being screwed over and bled dry
I don't know how anyone can see what is available now and not call the whole thing a scam. Did people complain about 150 dollar gold Timberwolves for Mechwarrior Online? Are those same people not complaining about Star Citizen's current pricing scheme? Pay to play and pay to win. Compare it to any other free to play game and it will look bad. League of Legends rotates free heroes all the time. Other games allow you to progress but at a slower rate. Other games give an edge not a dominate edge in firepower. etcetera.
Well once we deplete our aquifers out here, I know I can find some fresh haterade in this thread.
And what describes your positive experience with Star Citizen right now?
Honestly from what I've seen.
Currently, what ship you get in game depends upon what package you buy. Better packages with better ships slaughter ships from cheaper packages. I've heard it's nigh impossible to win with an Aurora against a better ship.
There is a plan for players to earn UEC in-game, which they can use to buy better ships. This is not in the beta.
What is in the game is the chance to REC, which allows you to save up an rent a ship for one week.
What is available now is purely a pay-to-win Early Access game with the promise that it will be fair when released but currently people are being screwed over and bled dry
I don't know how anyone can see what is available now and not call the whole thing a scam. Did people complain about 150 dollar gold Timberwolves for Mechwarrior Online? Are those same people not complaining about Star Citizen's current pricing scheme? Pay to play and pay to win. Compare it to any other free to play game and it will look bad. League of Legends rotates free heroes all the time. Other games allow you to progress but at a slower rate. Other games give an edge not a dominate edge in firepower. etcetera.
The primary goal of buying SC now is to fund development, and the primary goal of playing SC now is to help devs test the game and provide feedback. Not to win, not even necessarily to have fun. I expect any scores to be reset after 1.0 version of PU goes online and ship selling to cease. If that does not happen, you will have a point. But not before. I dont see anything scammy in what Star Citizen is doing, on the contrary, I wish more of my favourite games offered me a way to contribute to their development like that, even before they release the final version. Its simple - if you dont like it, or cant stomach the risk of failure, dont buy it (or buy it after release).
Your comparison with MWO is fundamentally flawed, since its not development versions that were pay to win, but after release.
Well once we deplete our aquifers out here, I know I can find some fresh haterade in this thread.
And what describes your positive experience with Star Citizen right now?
Is it out? I only tried arena commander, and walked around my hangar a bit. I'll let you know after they send me the email saying that Squadron 42 is ready and I have a chance to play.
So what Derek Smart game did you play?
If the Beta was released for testing purposes, every player would have access to all the ships. Players who bought higher priced ships would get them at release and other players would need to earn them.
Why would a game intentionally limit the testing of higher priced ships by denying them to most of the player base?
Most of the time you test a game, it's for balance purposes. The cheap ship is completely outmatched by the higher priced ones. So how exactly are you testing for balance?
Why aren't they testing the UEC earning progression?
Oh yeah that makes a WORLD of difference. One game it's evil because it's released, one game it's saintly because it's "in development". What a load of horse****.
MWO was also a free game.
And do you honestly believe that store is going to go away once it's released?
This is like saying that winning the lottery means your money troubles are over because you have more money than you ever needed before. And yet there are plenty of examples of people spending themselves into debt because they had no idea how to manage that kind of money. It's a very similar situation. In this case, SC's success has led to an insane amount of feature creep, and combined with CR's crazy ambition and arrogance (if sources are to be believed), it's made CIG incapable of locking down exactly what they want to do with their game.
If the Beta was released for testing purposes, every player would have access to all the ships. Players who bought higher priced ships would get them at release and other players would need to earn them.
Why would a game intentionally limit the testing of higher priced ships by denying them to most of the player base?
Because they get more money that way? Duh. It is not for testing purposes only, it is also to fund the game. SC differs from other games because it is entirely backer-funded, and thats why even some borderline "money-grabbing" schemes are excused for them, as long as they dont continue into the final version. The more money they get, the better for the players, because it means they can cram more into the game. And as long as there are enough players to buy all the higher ships (which there are), it wont harm the testing efforts since every ship would get tested. Not to mention that there are often free flight weeks of specific ships, so that they do get tested by everyone. I only have a lousy Aurora, yet I have flown many other ships.
This is why a lot of people have lost confidence in the project as CIG got more and more money. I was a hell of a lot more excited about SC when they hadn't even broken 10 million, because the game they had planned was actually achievable and could have been released by now.I'm afraid that I'm going to agree with you here as well. At this point, CIG seems like it has waaay too much money. They're rapidly approaching a 100M$ dollar budget. While it's not a government project (if it was, it'd be doomed for certain at this point), this is a classic example of "too much of a good thing". Coppola had the a similar situation during filming of Apocalypse Now. That took an absurd amount of time, but it panned out. His next move (also with way too much budget, and now also too much confidence in himself), however, did not. CR's crowdfunding success does put him in Coppola's situation when making that second movie. So, we might as well end up with both 100 million wasted and 14 years or so. At least it isn't being developed behind closed doors, so if/when something does get done, it will be playable anyway. Indeed, the only reason I'm still hopeful for the project is that it has a community that can give feedback both about development process and the game itself.
I dont get your point, could you rephrase? Cheap ships should be generally worse than pricier ships, that is what I call balanced.
Its not horse****. Pay to win is bad because and only because it offers unearned advantages for some players. But there is no obligation to keep gameplay totaly fair during development. Who wins or loses is secondary. The only obligation during development is to test the game and to earn more money for development. If the game is still pay to win after it releases, then I will be angry, but not before.
So what Derek Smart game did you play?
I didn't play any, I was just here when he was shopping around for Freespace rights.
To be fair, he has spent a huge chunk of his life trying to accomplish exactly what Star Citizen is going for, and probably has a better idea than nearly anyone about how incredibly hard it is to pull off.
He knows how hard the first 3 or 4 steps are, at least.
CitizenCon should provide ample news in a week, hopefully there will be something worth showing. I do have a question though, if this game does not hit the mark and fails do you think any publisher would pick the game up and try and piece it together in one form or another? Or would it not be worth it?The way I see it, there are two things that would actively discourage a publisher from funding this the rest of the way: 1) most of the people who can reliably be expected to buy the game have already done so, and if CIG needs a publisher's help, most of the money from that is gone. 2) that isn't $90M of sales, it's $90M of debt. Debt which the publisher would need to take on to finalise the game. And if it can't be done, they'd probably need to pay a lot of that money back.
Someone brought up a point a few pages back that was mostly glossed over but very important, especially for all the people wondering about SC's money.
In the BattleTech kickstarter they are asking for $1M worth of funding just to add a single-player campaign to an already internally paid for PC-port of a boardgame. The game ruleset will more than likely be just a modern version of a game that is literally decades old, so most design and balance is done, or at least enough to provide a foundation. Yet, they still know it takes $1M and ~1.5 years (projected release of May 2017) to simply add a campaign. Why? Because their studio has made games in the past few years and knows how expensive modern game development is. They won't even have voice acting until $1.35M and multiplayer until $2.5M.
Compare and contrast this to Chris Roberts, whose most recent game, Freelancer, was released 9 years prior to when he launched his kickstarter. Also keep in mind that he had to be forced out of his position as studio lead in 2000 because the project was overbudget and overdue, so the replacement leads completed the game. Roberts' most recent management experience of a game was 12 years prior to the SC kickstarter. [and it was a complete failure -Aesaar]
Then, he asked for $500K to create a game that had:
-Single Player Campaign – Offline or Online (Drop in / Drop out co-op play)
-Persistent Universe
-Mod-able multiplayer
-10X the detail of current AAA games
-Fully dynamic economy driven by player actions
Roberts is a person who not only has a record of being unable to manage development funds, but also proves that he has no idea what modern game development entails. Of all the things the Escapist article touched upon, the most important point with relevance to the sustainability of the project is the $8M figure. (Note: I am not saying that the points about a toxic work environment and business ethics are unimportant, just that they have less bearing on the project's life than the finances)
In his crazy rant he brings up in-depth counterpoints to the article, although he only gets to that after the ad-hominem attacks. When it comes to debunk the talk about the project's finances his main thrust is:
"We always keep a healthy cash reserve and operate our business prudently based on the incoming revenue."
That is it, he then drops the subject with no elaboration. This was his chance to go into detail with regards to their financial situation and assuage the fears of any doubters or disbelievers about what matters the most. I cannot understand how anyone can have any faith in this "savior of PC gaming" with his past record of mismanagement in light of the rumors of current mismanagement.
To be fair to them, if the claims of racism are untrue, the only possible response for them is to sue cause that is a textbook case of defamation. On the other hand, if The Escapist can prove their claims, they're going to really regret trying to sue.The Escapist doesn't need to prove their claim. I'm not a lawyer, so take this with a grain of salt, but as I understand it (with the help of a couple of lawyers in the Something Awful thread), under American law, the burden of proof is on CIG. They'd need to prove that The Escapist knew the claims weren't true and printed them anyway. Even if they aren't true, so long as The Escapist had reasonable cause to believe they were true, printing them isn't illegal.
CIG have everything to lose and very little to gain from this. I don't get why they're doing it.
Then, he asked for $500K to create a game that had:
-Single Player Campaign – Offline or Online (Drop in / Drop out co-op play)
-Persistent Universe
-Mod-able multiplayer
-10X the detail of current AAA games
-Fully dynamic economy driven by player actions
CIG have everything to lose and very little to gain from this. I don't get why they're doing it.
Assuming that CIG doesn't know things we don't about it, you'd be right. That's not a good assumption considering the accusations were made about their internal behavior. For all we know they're aware exactly who was spoken to or what was released and can prove it was a Rolling Stone job.
The Escapist doesn't need to prove their claim. I'm not a lawyer, so take this with a grain of salt, but as I understand it (with the help of a couple of lawyers in the Something Awful thread), under American law, the burden of proof is on CIG. They'd need to prove that The Escapist knew the claims weren't true and printed them anyway. Even if they aren't true, so long as The Escapist had reasonable cause to believe they were true, printing them isn't illegal.
Things are different under English law, but both The Escapist and CIG are American companies, and both the states of New York (where The Esacpist is based) and California (where CIG is based) have laws that prevent libel tourism.
I'm having trouble understanding CIG's reasoning here. This lawsuit would be very difficult to win. What's more, if they lose, public perception would view that as an admission that what The Escapist wrote was true. It could utterly ruin them.
I noticed a lot of sperging during the weekend. People fervently willing to disprove the "Id Cards" and other nonsense. The amount of defensiveness over this subject is surreal, but the more I look into it, the more convinced I become that the article is genuine and so are the sources.
I noticed a lot of sperging during the weekend. People fervently willing to disprove the "Id Cards" and other nonsense. The amount of defensiveness over this subject is surreal, but the more I look into it, the more convinced I become that the article is genuine and so are the sources.
If we take CRs claims about this at face value, then those are things one can definitely construct a defamation case around. That the true believers of the Church of the Cloud Imperium jump onto those things as proof that every allegation made by The Escapist is wrong should not be surprising in the least.
Also, bonus popehat (https://popehat.com/2015/10/04/in-space-no-one-can-hear-you-threaten-lawsuits/)
That means they'd have to prove actual malice to win a defamation case. Constitutional "actual malice" doesn't mean ill-will, as Freyermuth's letter seems to imply. It means knowledge that the statement is false, or reckless disregard for the truth — that is, publishing despite serious doubts about its truth. Cloud Imperium isn't going to satisfy that standard.
Yeah, getting funds to sue the Escapist might be troublesome for the very financials that they are accused of mismanaging....
Perhaps they could reach the internet and start a crowdfunding campaign.
I'm pretty sure I saw the update before people on this thread started talking about the legal threat. And CR did publish a pretty epic rant first, and only then alter it into the threat to sue. I think this is pretty much a response to the first rant.
Kara is wrong. The Escapist's response to the first screed was to add it as commentary into the article.
As someone who frequently struggles to finish large projects, I know well the travails of the over-promise.
Star Citizen could have been managed by me. That is all.
1.They are going to parade all the A-List actors – all of whom cost a ton of money – for SQ42. This despite the fact that that stand-alone game is reported to be almost fifteen months away.
2.They are going to show the opening cut-scene sequence for SQ42 with Gary Oldman giving his speech, someone flying and landing, NPCs waving etc.
3.They are going to show Star Marine. Again. It’s still a mess – and nowhere ready for production release. Reports tell me that if it gets released before year end, it would be a miracle.
4.They are going to show multi-crew. Again. Problem now is that, as of the last report I got, it doesn’t run smoothly at all. And so they are now running the demo on super computers with 16 cores, loads of memory etc. Again, not production release ready.
Holy ****. If they seriously don't release a single ****ing thing on Saturday, and instead just show a bunch of actors and demo **** with no timetable... yeah that's going to warrant a refund.
If what he said was true, that if funding stopped that he could still finish the game, go ahead and call him on that. STOP funding the project. Test him.This is actually a very reasonable request. Probably why the RSI cultists will never do it. These are people who proudly bought ships for the explicit purpose of spiting Derek Smart and The Escapist.
For your information, there was no plan to release anything at CitizenCon, the con is only to show the progress, any releases were planned some time after the con. How soon that will happen is another matter, tough..This would be a lot more compelling if, at Gamescom, CIG hadn't said they planned to release the FPS module before the end of September. So you're right. They didn't plan to release anything at CitizenCon. They planned to release something before CitizenCon. And they failed.
Hey look at the brightside, just like Minecon if you attend Citizencon you will get an exclusive digital conent! But instead of a cape for your character, you'll get a digital poster for your Hangar!!
Except, unlike Minecon anyone who doesn't attend can also just poney up some more cash and buy it from the online store.
At this point if the financial rumours are true CIG should probably just double down on one module and get it finished and out the door so they can start selling it and bringing in some more money to finish the other modules. Technically they're already sort of selling it anyway but if it's actually released and reviews at least mediocre it should bring in some more sales from those who want a finished product.
Quote@Beer, let me underscore what i've arleady said - I've consider you to be well-spoken and often (though not always) forthright and honest.
I do believe you mistake "credibility" with "popularity" in regards to your presence and actions on the SA forums. Where I am challenged is that, even with the "goon glasses" on and understanding full well the operating culture of SA, your aggressive pursuit of damaging the game through your PSA for refunds, how to type them up to customer service, etc. smacks of deep hubris on your part in terms of maximum damage done to a group of people who are trying very hard to make a great game.
It's one thing to be opposed to an idea. It's completely understandable to be vocal and consistent with criticism of the developers(mad props for someone who can form and defend an opinion). I may support CIG more than you do, and I may have an easier time holding them to a more relaxed "be good, but I allow you to make mistakes" level of accountability than you do, but I don't begrudge you your perspective. I just don't agree with it.
I have been exceedingly consistent over the years in my strong belief in, and full support of CIG, I'm as passionate about my perspectives as you are yours. That's the nature of debate, varying opinions and value assessments, and all manner of things that differentiate people. Nothing wrong with your perspective. Equally, nothing wrong with mine. We are both likely right to degrees, and history will bear that out.
However ...
To aggressively pursue a plan to damage the funding of the game by enabling and encouraging backers to pursue refunds cannot be disguised - it is an agenda, by any name or attempt to deflect it. It isn't feedback; it isn't discussion; it isn't strongly worded dissent. It is intended to do real damage, not only to CIG, but to the folks who work there and rely on employment to feed families' and I take extreme exception to it.
That is why I will be relentless to point this out and shed some light on the truth. It's nothing personal - I do sincerely like you, save this one character flaw that you are resistant to acknowledge and address. As such, I'm going to challenge you when you move out of the realm of intellectually honest debate, and into the fear mongering that furthers your agenda.
My agenda is to defend what is fair and right - that CIG be given the benefit of the doubt until such a time that concrete evidence emerges and ends the debate - to avoid the fear mongering intended to do damage, from the suspect commentary from "anonymous CS1-CS7", from a story with a growing list of murky inconsistencies that to any reasonable adult throw the entirety of the hastily-assembled attack into severe question. It is much more plausible based on salient facts that the allegations are fabricated, inflated and enhanced versus the "evidence" that suggests all of the issues alleged. And Derek Smart - as it is universally accepted that he is among - if not the - worst game developers of all time with a terrible track record at success - to support him takes a certain moral flexibility, and for intelligent folks, doesn't reflect well on you. You know this. That you don't care is unfortunate. Be careful how far you fall, sometimes you only see it looking back...
I've shared a window into what you are involved in, in a public forum but not related to these boards - that's my PSA for the folks here. I'll let others read up and make their mind up. I advocate for informed, educated decision-making, and I'll pursue my agenda for as long as it takes to offset the disingenuous attempts to do real world damage to people who's livelihoods I happen to care about.
Ultimately - and because I'm a positive, optimistic person - I see the silver lining in the long term outcome of all this. Those that do pursue a refund based on all this drek? Most of them weren't cut out for what Star Citizen is destined to be, so it's win/win. I don't want to debate how their illusions were shattered; the point I'm trying to make is agnostic to the "why". Simply stated, if they take the "out", then the remaining community becomes one member more united, and one less member divided; and the person who exits gets a pass and can move on to the next great adventure / drama.
Optimism is cool like that - I recommend it to anyone :)
$90,000,000. Ninety. Million. Dollars. Four times the original asking price of the game. For that we have received a deeply flawed arena fighting game and a glorified chat room. For that we have received three years of broken promises, incompetence, and most recently childish and frankly pitiful behavior on the part of CIG's executives. CIG has done nothing to suggest they have been good stewards of our money, and if you don't find their continued inability to deliver on a basic game to be "concrete evidence" then frankly you will never find it.
If me providing guidance on how disgruntled backers can get their money back causes CIG to lose money then I consider that a success. I did not create the ill will that motivated those people to seek out refunds. I did not break the promises that lead to them making that request. That all lies at the feet of @croberts68, and he's more than welcome to come here and defend his incompetence and mistakes. Perhaps for once he can accept responsibility for his numerous failures.
If a few backers getting refunds does damage to the employees of CIG then those people were already doomed. CIG's coffers should be overflowing with cash. CIG should have a massive contingency fund capable of paying for the remainder of development even if they don't receive another dollar. CIG should be fully aware of their burn rate, the remaining workload, and have a plan to completion. If they don't, if backers getting refunds does anything other than send a message that CIG's actions are unacceptable and things need to change, then frankly this whole argument is moot because CIG is screwed.
Look, I want this stupid game to come out. I want to have an awesome time with my friends running around blowing up helpless merchants and boarding ships. But I have absolutely no faith whatsoever in CIG's ability to produce a viable product or meet expectations and frankly I don't think they even care. Actions speak louder than words, and there is no action with more impact than demanding your money back. Maybe if CIG sees enough of them then they'll actually change.
Incidentally there's nothing preventing those people from buying the game once again and coming back. I mean I guess CIG could not take their money, but they're not stupid.
Those that do pursue a refund based on all this drek? Most of them weren't cut out for what Star Citizen is destined to be, so it's win/win.What the lol
QuoteThose that do pursue a refund based on all this drek? Most of them weren't cut out for what Star Citizen is destined to be, so it's win/win.What the lol
He's right if you think about it. They are not cut out to be shat on their faces. They actually have some level of self-worth.
Like him, I can imagine quite a big game too. In fact, I can imagine a game so big, so immersive, so amazing, so incredible in all of its traits and characteristics, that in order to make it it would actually take a decade or more to do it, and a hell of a lot more than 90 million dollars.For me it sounds like they want the sandbox, trade, contract, corporation and industry of EVE, the space combat gameplay of Freespace, Wing Commander or some similar game, some stuff from E:D (never played it but it seemed to share some goals) and the FPS elements of whatever modern more or less open sci-fi shooter with vehicles there is (I haven't played any shooter for ages). All of that in AAA quality and somehow combined without perceived borders between the modes. Oh and wasn't this thing supposed to be moddable and people should be able to run their own servers? I wonder who can pay for that server infrastructure and the dev team to create a mod for it.
And Battlecruiser 3000? Don't people know he's released like 6 games since then? Some of which scored moderately well (75-78 according to PC gamer)The games he released after are mostly just remakes of Battlecruiser 3000AD that fail to actually result in an actual game. His most recent project is an MMO (reusing the same ****ty assets from his last BC3000 remake) that appears to have had an all-time peak of... 116 players. 6 months ago. Apparently that has dropped, since then, to a peak of 2 players over the past twenty-four hours.
And Battlecruiser 3000? Don't people know he's released like 6 games since then? Some of which scored moderately well (75-78 according to PC gamer)The games he released after are mostly just remakes of Battlecruiser 3000AD that fail to actually result in an actual game. His most recent project is an MMO (reusing the same ****ty assets from his last BC3000 remake) that appears to have had an all-time peak of... 116 players. 6 months ago. Apparently that has dropped, since then, to a peak of 2 players over the past twenty-four hours.
Space Ship One's development cost 25 million dollars before it flew for the first time back in 2004. Cost of Star Citizen so far, 90 million $. So it takes 65 million less to actually go to space than to have a delayed, questionable-if-ever-playable space sim.I think that the thing was that Virgin Galactic didn't have 90 million $ on hand. :) If they did, they might have tried to go for an airliner-sized ship that would go to orbit and have a huge cargobay for lifting payloads along with the crew... I get a feeling that Roberts has much, much more money that he can handle management of. I do hope this merely delays the game, but I've seen projects completely bogged down by "too much of a good thing". Too much money, too large of a scope, too many people, too great expectations. Great things often started small and gradually got big, starting big is more likely to turn into an unmanageable mess.
Gameplay-wise, there was nothing shown at CitizenCon that we didn't see at Gamescom. Most of the presentation was CR talking about how SQ42 has 10 hours of cutscenes (in a 30 mission campaign), and then CIG trying to convince you that they invented motion capture. It's really obvious that Chris would prefer to make movies. He's thrown more money at SQ42 than at his ludicrously ambitious persistent universe.
The number 2016 was seen, may indicate years until release(?????)
and other subtle features needed for a space sim (http://i.imgur.com/Hj5oy02.jpg)Baron Harkonnen says wut
Worry not, Spoon, Hades and I, some foul and skeptic minded people, managed to watch the whole thing and kept our wits about by mocking everything (cause its fun!). Here's a brief rundown from what I gathered in the chat log.
- Flowers for Sandi
- Millions of kilometers of space
- Immersive
- Mostly rehashed Crusader v0 gameplay demo
- Immersive star map where Alpha Centauri is not the closest star to Sol
- "Private" "lounge" for your friends to hang out and drink immersive alcoholic beverages (and fishtanks)
- Saitek getting on the money train with custom branded joysticks
- Trapezoidal marketing referral bonus program (get 5 referrals and get a bigger fish tank, get 10 and get a gold skin for a ship!)
- Actually not bad looking fighter (SabrePotato)
- Immersive
- Squadron 42, wwwhaaat???
- Independence day and/or 9/11 style speech intro cutscene by Gary Oldman set in a Space Parliament
- Gary Oldman still talking
- Gary Oldman barely blinking
- Gary Oldman still talking raspily
- A-List Hollywood actor list
- And Sandi
- Amazing facial feature technology including blood flow, wrinkle maps, pupil dilation and other subtle features needed for a space sim (http://i.imgur.com/Hj5oy02.jpg)
- Immersive
- Tactical combat everywhere! Even on the ground!
- Ships on SALE!!!!
- 90 million page script (Still not as long as BP aaaaayyyyy)
- 120 hours of mo cap recorded, 10 hours kept for the game
- Actors being paid to praise the mo cap (http://i.imgur.com/dVRvkkL.png)
- 66 day shooting schedule
- Immersive
- Huge 250m Frigate
- Starlancer opening recreation with an amazing array of UK accents
- Corridor walking simulator
- Sitting in a briefing room and hearing the history of your ship simulator
- The number 2016 was seen, may indicate years until release(?????)
- Immersive birthday cake for SC brought out, happy birthday is cringly sung
- Chris Roberts can't cut a cake
- Immersion
Shout out to Hades for those image links (that first one was an actual image from the stream)
If they mo cap the Bono concert, they won't need to worry about needing him alive when the game comes out. First ever immersive concert done in CryEngine 18!
On a related note, apparently Wingman, the Descent: Underground project head, was banned from the official Star Citizen chat the other day for daring to answer people's questions about his own project. Keep in mind that Wingman was originally an integral part of the CIG team and played a major role in the campaign's initial success; as far as I can tell he is still very well-liked amongst the SC community, many of whom signed on to support his own Kickstarter. The ban was rescinded not too long after, but it really makes you question how the hell things are run in that community.
It's life right now! Oh look it starts with his wife giving this speech on how she worked her ass off in this, bla bla bla.
"This is much more than a triple A game." Then she goes on on saying how it's about meaning and friendships and so on. ****ing hell, it's a cult.
"... if you really believe you're part of something bigger ..."
Space Ship One's development cost 25 million dollars before it flew for the first time back in 2004. Cost of Star Citizen so far, 90 million $. So it takes 65 million less to actually go to space than to have a delayed, questionable-if-ever-playable space sim.
The fact the CIG are putting their military ships on sale say a lot about their financial situation. Those have always been their most popular ones.
Especially the Idris, which isn't even being sold in limited quantities like it was all the previous times it was available (well, except for the 5000$ pack).
They NEED money right now. If this sale goes badly (which it probably won't), they're done. They may be done anyway. There's only so much you can milk your cult for, probably why they also added a referral program at the same time. They need new money.
I say on sale, but really it's 2500USD (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/pledge/Combos/Armada-Pack). It only qualifies as a sale because it's cheaper than the individual packages. Also, packages that were originally offered as "limited time only will never be sold again".
"Star Citizen is, and always will be, more than a AAA game. So much more. Star Citizen speaks to the pure essence of humanity and the purpose of human beings and I firmly believe this is why there are so many passionate people on both sides of the fence."
"Star Citizen is, and always will be, more than a AAA game. So much more. Star Citizen speaks to the pure essence of humanity and the purpose of human beings and I firmly believe this is why there are so many passionate people on both sides of the fence."
"Star Citizen is, and always will be, more than a AAA game. So much more. Star Citizen speaks to the pure essence of humanity and the purpose of human beings and I firmly believe this is why there are so many passionate people on both sides of the fence."
Holy **** do they know they're making a video game? Not curing cancer, helping refugees or colonizing mars.
How on earth was Star Citizen's crowdfunding campaign so record-breaking? I can't wrap my mind around it.
How on earth was Star Citizen's crowdfunding campaign so record-breaking? I can't wrap my mind around it.
How on earth was Star Citizen's crowdfunding campaign so record-breaking? I can't wrap my mind around it.
People who like space sims were starved for new content for a decade. Meanwhile this demographic cohort grew up and acquired fat disposable income. Then Chris(t) of WC fame comes along and promises salvation in the form of not just any space sim, but the "best damn space sim ever". The result? $92 million and counting..
Sell Dreams, Not Products
Steve Jobs doesn’t sell computers. He sells the promise of a better world. True evangelists are driven by a messianic zeal to create new experiences. When Jobs introduced the iPod in 2001, he said, "In our own small way, we’re going to make the world a better place." Where most people see the iPod as a music player, Jobs presents it as tool to enrich people’s lives. Of course, it’s important to have great products. But passion, enthusiasm, and a sense of purpose beyond the actual product will set you and your company apart.
He also sold people their dreams. He gave people enough information to provide a framework, then let them fill in the blanks themselves, asked them what they wanted to do in the game and said "you'll be able to do that". It doesn't matter what "that" is, you'll be able to do it.
It's why there's absolutely no way SC can measure up to expectations even if it gets released. He's not selling a game, he's selling a dream.
That speech video has terrible music. It's just too much.Oh I agree it doesn't fit, for the same reason I said the applause didn't feel earned. That music doesn't feel earned. But just by itself I really like the piece. It would work if they managed to put a genuinely impressive speech in there.
Star Citizen's original KS goal was 500,000$. This was to make the basic game without too many bells and whistles; however, the amount raised on KS was over 4 times that, forcing them to literally make up new stretch goals. At this point they basically made a promise to make the game of every scifi fan's dreams for 2 million $. Whether or not that was realistic, this is what they promised.
And his hair just looks wrong. The rest is very good though.
Fair enough about the hair.And his hair just looks wrong. The rest is very good though.
Devs have stated that new hair shader is not yet in.
That mouth tho. Star Citizen face mocap is done by 3Lateral, so I expected something like this:
https://vimeo.com/64639747
Dialogue sounds fine to me, these are soldiers off duty in routine situations talking, so the lines should be delivered in a bit of a flat and boring way.
Fair enough about the hair.And his hair just looks wrong. The rest is very good though.
Devs have stated that new hair shader is not yet in.
That mouth tho. Star Citizen face mocap is done by 3Lateral, so I expected something like this:
https://vimeo.com/64639747
Dialogue sounds fine to me, these are soldiers off duty in routine situations talking, so the lines should be delivered in a bit of a flat and boring way.
But the dialogue, surely not when you first meet them! You only get one chance to make a first impression. Compare this to when you meet people for the first time in WC3 and WC4 and even WCP. It falls well short of that.
Another thing I noticed from the speech which I want to mention which leaves me scratching my head, that's the first I've heard about the Vanduul. So we've been fighting the Vanduul for 200 years. And in all that time we've only called the attacks "raids, skirmishes and incursions." That is a terrible thing to say about them. It makes them seem so weak. It's like we've spent the last 200 years treating them as nothing more than a nuisance, and they've not done much to prove otherwise, well, until this Vega engagement in the start of the video. So it's took them 200 years to do something to make us sit up and take notice of them. It seems more like this is going to be pest control than a war for the survival of the human race. Compare that to how we get introduced to the Kilrathi and the Nephelim.
As I said, who knows. I'd say it's way too early to tell. For all we know Squadron 42 could be some nightmarish behind enemy lines reconaissance gathering mission to find out why the Vanduul are suddenly so much more organized, aggressive and deadly than before.
Star Citizen's original KS goal was 500,000$. This was to make the basic game without too many bells and whistles; however, the amount raised on KS was over 4 times that, forcing them to literally make up new stretch goals. At this point they basically made a promise to make the game of every scifi fan's dreams for 2 million $. Whether or not that was realistic, this is what they promised.
Again, this is not true. Star Citizen original crowdfunding goal was at least $2 million, raised mostly through their site. Kickstarter was added later as a means to pledge for those who did not want to use the official site, that $500k KS goal doesnt really mean anything significant.
Also, if Chris did manage to get more funding aside from the crowdfunding, that means he's already over 100 million dollars.
Also, if Chris did manage to get more funding aside from the crowdfunding, that means he's already over 100 million dollars.
It's all too easy to imagine several scenarios that make total sense ... like the Vanduul being some kind of society with a clan / nomad structure that has no central government or leader .... until such a leader suddenly arises and a large amount of small unorganized clans is quickly turned into a deadly threath to any other civilization ....
Totally not anything to do with the Vandals and Attila the Hun, then, a quite original backstory then. Impressive writing material.That's what I thought as soon as the horde thing came up. But hey, it does make it better than the alternative, which would mean we've gone from kill-wrath to petty crime. :p Which would just reinforce the weakness image.
No Spoon, read it as "the dole".
Just on names, I think it would have been so much better if they'd just called them the vandals and said that was the codename for them because we've got no idea what they actually call themselves (or we can't pronounce it). Would also show a bit of self-awareness. But no, they've just got a name that coincidentally sounds insanely close to Vandal, and they fill the same role.
SC tries so hard to be the fall of the Roman Empire in space, but it manages to do absolutely nothing interesting with that. It doesn't look at how the Roman Empire was a colossal supernation that, by the time it died, had culturally assimilated everyone around it (which eventually spread to all of Europe) and destroyed nearly everyone who resisted that assimilation (as in Sassanid Persia and eventually the Muslims were the only ones it didn't). It doesn't look at how the Empire wasn't destroyed from outside. Oh no, it copy-pastes the most basic explanation: the Empire was destroyed by barbarians.
You're just overthinking this now with your "historical accuracies" and some such come on :D
Totally not anything to do with the Vandals and Attila the Hun, then, a quite original backstory then. Impressive writing material.
There's a whole wiki on this stuff.
Except if you really think the writers of this **** are as terrible as some of us think they are. Hell, even with good writers, one can make good educated guesses. I nailed most of Mass Effect 3's storyline beforehand.
Turning BAD ASS ctuhluh like creatures into puppets seem like a BAD idea story wise.
Just sayin...
What made Wing Commander remarkable is that it was among the first games to handle storytelling in a modern manner. Once that sort of thing became standard, new Chris Roberts titles became rather mediocre. Just look at WC Prophecy and Starlancer. The typical Chris Roberts story isn't good enough anymore. It stopped being good enough in the second half of the 1990s. No, a story doesn't need to be new to be enjoyable. But it does need to do something different to set itself apart from what came before. Good writing is necessary whether your story is old or new (whatever those are supposed to mean). And good writing is something past CR games never had. The WC movie didn't either.
It remains to be seen if SC will follow this trend, but judging by how insanely generic Bishop's speech was, and how derivative the setting itself is, I'm not hopeful.
Also not sure whether you can judge a man solely on the work he did 15-20 years ago ... in the meantime he did other things like direct "Lord of War" and other movies as well.
Well, given that his entire crowdfunding campaign was completely based on work he did 15-20 years ago (since he's done nothing decent since), I think he wants to be judged based on that. I'm obliging him.What made Wing Commander remarkable is that it was among the first games to handle storytelling in a modern manner. Once that sort of thing became standard, new Chris Roberts titles became rather mediocre. Just look at WC Prophecy and Starlancer. The typical Chris Roberts story isn't good enough anymore. It stopped being good enough in the second half of the 1990s. No, a story doesn't need to be new to be enjoyable. But it does need to do something different to set itself apart from what came before. Good writing is necessary whether your story is old or new (whatever those are supposed to mean). And good writing is something past CR games never had. The WC movie didn't either.
It remains to be seen if SC will follow this trend, but judging by how insanely generic Bishop's speech was, and how derivative the setting itself is, I'm not hopeful.
No mention of Wing Commander 4? Why not? Was that one too good? ;-) And Prophecy is more of an example why you shouldn t let EA handle franchises than anything else. lol.
Also not sure whether you can judge a man solely on the work he did 15-20 years ago ... in the meantime he did other things like direct "Lord of War" and a couple of other movies as well.
I'll settle on what I said above... "We'll see when we're gonna see" ... but in my humble opinion anyone who pretends to "know", at this stage, is just blowing smoke. /shrugs
Well, given that his entire crowdfunding campaign was completely based on work he did 15-20 years ago (since he's done nothing decent since), I think he wants to be judged based on that. I'm obliging him.
I don't think WC4 was anything special, but then again, I don't think WC5 was much worse. It was more of the same. What made it different is that it abandoned some of the characters (like not making Blair the player character), and, I think, showed just how mediocre the series was if you weren't a fan of the characters. Its story and the way it was told was no worse and no better.
Basically, more of the same, but with less fan appeal. Starlancer was in the exact same boat.
The "it'll be mediocre" and "it'll be awesome" positions are not supported by the same amount of evidence. They are not equally likely. Saying "we'll see when we're gonna see" is all well and good, but it adds absolutely nothing to the discussion.
And no one here is pretending to know anything for certain. But you need to get it into your head that it's perfectly sensible to make predictions based on what we've seen from CR before and what CIG have presented of this game and its setting thus far. Maybe those predictions will turn out wrong, but expecting more of the same is a far safer prediction than expecting CR to make something genuinely interesting. The former is supported by his past work and what's been shown of the game. The latter is supported by wishful thinking.Just because you are of the opinion that the wing commander series was nothing but medicore drab doesn't make it a fact. I'd just like to point out that you have done nothing but present your opinions as factual fact. It bugs me a little as makes you appear incredibly antagonistic in this whole thread.
The "it'll be mediocre" and "it'll be awesome" positions are not supported by the same amount of evidence. They are not equally likely. Saying "we'll see when we're gonna see" is all well and good, but it adds absolutely nothing to the discussion.
I feel exactly the same way as you. While I do agree with what you said about Aesaar completely, it's the behaviour of the whole clique rather than just Aesaar singly that makes me feel that way (almost feel bad). Like I've wanted to talk about this stuff lately, but end up feeling kinda sorta like I'm part of the elitist dogpile even though I'm not and I just want to have a friendly talk.And no one here is pretending to know anything for certain. But you need to get it into your head that it's perfectly sensible to make predictions based on what we've seen from CR before and what CIG have presented of this game and its setting thus far. Maybe those predictions will turn out wrong, but expecting more of the same is a far safer prediction than expecting CR to make something genuinely interesting. The former is supported by his past work and what's been shown of the game. The latter is supported by wishful thinking.Just because you are of the opinion that the wing commander series was nothing but medicore drab doesn't make it a fact. I'd just like to point out that you have done nothing but present your opinions as factual fact. It bugs me a little as makes you appear incredibly antagonistic in this whole thread.
The "it'll be mediocre" and "it'll be awesome" positions are not supported by the same amount of evidence. They are not equally likely. Saying "we'll see when we're gonna see" is all well and good, but it adds absolutely nothing to the discussion.
I mean, I know you have a history of doing this. And we have butted heads before because of this. But man, chill out a bit. You are almost making me feel bad about agreeing on your star citizen related points because of how savage you're being.
Just because you are of the opinion that the wing commander series was nothing but medicore drab doesn't make it a fact. I'd just like to point out that you have done nothing but present your opinions as factual fact. It bugs me a little as makes you appear incredibly antagonistic in this whole thread.Everything I write is my opinion. Some of it is also fact, but I think those bits are fairly obvious. I'm not about to preface every paragraph I write with 'in my opinion'.
I mean, I know you have a history of doing this. And we have butted heads before because of this. But man, chill out a bit. You are almost making me feel bad about agreeing on your star citizen related points because of how savage you're being.
I'm not about to preface every paragraph I write with 'in my opinion'.Funny, that's usually how I do things and it in my experience, it works wonders while only taking me a few extra seconds to write.
A game like Wing Commander Privateer was developed by Erin Roberts not Chris.
I've always understood III and Privateer to be the most well-received games.
Good for you.I'm not about to preface every paragraph I write with 'in my opinion'.Funny, that's usually how I do things and it in my experience, it works wonders while only taking me a few extra seconds to write.
Thank you.Good for you.I'm not about to preface every paragraph I write with 'in my opinion'.Funny, that's usually how I do things and it in my experience, it works wonders while only taking me a few extra seconds to write.
Also I can't get over the fact that its supposedly taking place like XXXXX years in the future and they are using iron sights and basically the same kind of guns you could find today. Even the latest call of duty has higher technology going on than this.I looked at the Star Citizen timeline. The game is set in 2945. That's nearly a thousand years. However, there could be an explanation for it. Maybe the advanced weapons exist, but it's all around more cost effective to equip personnel with these kinds of weapons. Or maybe since we're fighting in space, more powerful weapons would be dangerous if they holed whatever they were fighting on.
The game is set in 2945.
Or just make it seem like you're firing a lot more bullets than you actually are. Tweak the effects and the HUD while still only tracking 10-20 bullets per second to minimise CPU load. A lot of current games already do this kind of stuff with super high RPM miniguns.This would go against CR obsession with simulating everything. They even have headbobbing because they can't bear the idea of the player viewpoint being a few centimeters away from the character model's eyes for a split second during the walk/run animations.
What's with the inconsistent weaver rails, tho? Otherwise looks good.
But it's funny what you think about sometimes. I was sat in the bus station earlier today, and this pigeon had got in and I was watching it wandering around. And I ended up thinking about this thread and imagining what it would be like with pigeon headbob in this game. :lol:
Headbob is ****ing awful, its in the same realm as awful as small fov and it literally makes me sick. I couldn't play half life 2 for more than 2 hours without feeling nausea because of its default ****ty 75 degree fov and headbobbing.I didn't know it could have this effect. And you can play other games which would be more jerky no problem?
It doesn't add immersion nor does it feel 'natural'.
Gasp. How dare ye. Your heresy will be shown to the Emperator's committee and you'll be shown the true color of our imperial speech code justice. May the prison designers have mercy on you and finish its design before you're too old to leave.Ack, please no. Mercy!
I can filter out headbob pretty well but I'm not a ****head so I don't tell people who get sick from it that that's their problem.Good man.
I didn't know it could have this effect. And you can play other games which would be more jerky no problem?I can play unreal tournament for hours on end without any issues. It's mostly a FoV issue, but headbobbing amplifies it.
Gasp. How dare ye. Your heresy will be shown to the Emperator's committee and you'll be shown the true color of our imperial speech code justice. May the prison designers have mercy on you and finish its design before you're too old to leave.Ack, please no. Mercy!
But it's funny what you think about sometimes. I was sat in the bus station earlier today, and this pigeon had got in and I was watching it wandering around. And I ended up thinking about this thread and imagining what it would be like with pigeon headbob in this game. :lol:
Ummmmmm. Hate to break this to you, but one of the main theories about why they do that is so as to stabilise their vision. i.e to avoid headbob. :p
Birds in general have some quite amazing steadying properties. One of the cheapest ways to get a steadycam is to simply mount a small camera on the head of a chicken and give it something fascinating to look at. Seriously (http://gizmodo.com/tag/chicken-steadicam). :p
I found this to be a pretty good read:
http://massivelyop.com/2015/10/21/ascents-lead-dev-offers-insight-on-the-star-citizen-controversy/
You need to be painting a 32bit picture for the GPU, a snapshot based on the larger 64bit picture your game engine has… every frame. If this sounds complex, that’s because it is.
But it's funny what you think about sometimes. I was sat in the bus station earlier today, and this pigeon had got in and I was watching it wandering around. And I ended up thinking about this thread and imagining what it would be like with pigeon headbob in this game. :lol:
Ummmmmm. Hate to break this to you, but one of the main theories about why they do that is so as to stabilise their vision. i.e to avoid headbob. :p
Birds in general have some quite amazing steadying properties. One of the cheapest ways to get a steadycam is to simply mount a small camera on the head of a chicken and give it something fascinating to look at. Seriously (http://gizmodo.com/tag/chicken-steadicam). :p
Wow nice gun, looks straight out of COD.
Wow nice gun, looks straight out of COD.
The ergonomics and design of firearms are pretty well settled by now, constrained far more by the basic limiting factors of having to be used by human beings than by the underlying technology. Expecting projectile chemical-reaction firearms to look radically different from what you know is more reflective of a problem with you.
So if you want to make criticism, y'know, find stuff that's not horrendously nitpicky and kind of silly. There's a lot of it, as this thread demonstrates.
Feel free to try and peddle whatever **** excuse you have for banal design work but I'm not buying.
If a gun a thousand years in the future doesn't look more futuristic than a P90 PDW there's something wrong. I see no less than 26 rivets or bolts on that gun. A Famas has about 5.
It's not about ergonomics its about construction techniques and materials. Why is there a display on the gun? Wouldn't a man in a space suit have a Heads Up Display? Information link from his gun to his suit? How compact is it? Isn't storage on a spaceship at premium? Wouldn't they make it out of lightweight materials to decrease the fuel required to transport it around? To ease its use in zero G? Is there any kind of recoil compensation? Does it break down/fold up for easy storage? The gun doesn't even have a grip for the off-hand.
Use your brain a little. If you were trying to imagine a gun a thousands years in the future is that the best you could imagine?
Feel free to try and peddle whatever **** excuse you have for banal design work but I'm not buying.
If a gun a thousand years in the future doesn't look more futuristic than a P90 PDW there's something wrong. I see no less than 26 rivets or bolts on that gun. A Famas has about 5.
It's not about ergonomics its about construction techniques and materials. Why is there a display on the gun? Wouldn't a man in a space suit have a Heads Up Display? Information link from his gun to his suit? How compact is it? Isn't storage on a spaceship at premium? Wouldn't they make it out of lightweight materials to decrease the fuel required to transport it around? To ease its use in zero G? Is there any kind of recoil compensation? Does it break down/fold up for easy storage? The gun doesn't even have a grip for the off-hand.
Use your brain a little. If you were trying to imagine a gun a thousands years in the future is that the best you could imagine?
You will not have a heads up display available all the time, so display on the gun makes complete sense. If you want to nitpick, then the issue is that it looks like an old LCD alphanumeric type, such technology would probably be long deprecated. We dont know what material is it made of or if it can fold for storage.
Even Airplane designers in 2015 know that having a full display of combat area is an incredible advantage (http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2014/07/magic-helmet-for-f-35-ready-for-delivery/), but somehow designers in 2900 forgot all this and thought that polluting your screen with stupid tablets all over the place reducing your actual combat awareness by 40/60% is the ****.I hear ya, this was one of my first complaints when I had my first look at arena commander. The actual action happens at like half of your screen, the rest of this estate is taken up by all sorts of stuff.
I couldn't give a rat's ass about stupid led counters in a stupid FPS that nobody will play. But that cockpit. That ****ing cockpit.
I won't shut up about it. Volition did a thousand times better job in 1998 with its cockpit than a multimegamillion company with the craziest shiny graphical engines of 2015.
I just won't shut up abo.... ok I will shut up about it.
Also, ROFL at that Dan Tracy guy leaving. "No tanks near Bagdad guys...."
*retroactively hurls rotten fruit at Steve Jobs for encouraging lemmings to utterly forgo tactile feedback
*retroactively hurls rotten fruit at Steve Jobs for encouraging lemmings to utterly forgo tactile feedback
Their choice, I still use a BlackBerry and I'm very happy with it.
When it comes to cockpits, I tend to also prefer not to have them. In Diaspora it is pretty much canon that you can see the ship, but normally I'd prefer to leave the cockpit as an optional extra.
I for one am glad that Phantom Hoover is here to teach us all a lesson of humility and a need to tone down condescending righteous criticism.
I for one am glad that Phantom Hoover is here to teach us all a lesson of humility and a need to tone down condescending righteous criticism.
wow way to make it personal
Well they did make it personal. And we all know that Derek Smart has a hard enough time when people criticise his games, let alone making it personal. So I'm hardly surprised he's acting like they called him out.I was referring to Luis Dias
I for one am glad that Phantom Hoover is here to teach us all a lesson of humility and a need to tone down condescending righteous criticism.
wow way to make it personal
Some dislike "personal", I dislike "handwaved generalizing righteous condescending remarks".
Well they did make it personal. And we all know that Derek Smart has a hard enough time when people criticise his games, let alone making it personal. So I'm hardly surprised he's acting like they called him out.I was referring to Luis Dias
Well they did make it personal. And we all know that Derek Smart has a hard enough time when people criticise his games, let alone making it personal. So I'm hardly surprised he's acting like they called him out.
I for one am glad that Phantom Hoover is here to teach us all a lesson of humility and a need to tone down condescending righteous criticism.
Basically, why have you preordered SC when there's a fair amount of evidence that suggests CR could still screw it up like he did his last game?
Fineus: I'm genuinely curious about...
and what they've released has massive gameplay issues.
cant say fairer than that Fineus
Well they did make it personal. And we all know that Derek Smart has a hard enough time when people criticise his games, let alone making it personal. So I'm hardly surprised he's acting like they called him out.
I do see your point... but we (that is the FreeSpace community) of all should know how he can carry on. Remember when he started in on us a few years back?
It was ridiculous, petty and seeing his outbursts on Twitter towards SC brings back some major deja vu.
No, AC does not play similarly to Diaspora. It wants to, but completely fails. The reason for this are:and what they've released has massive gameplay issues.
It does have bugs but Arena Commander is already fun to play, IMHO. Gameplay has similar feel to Diaspora, which is a good thing. So even if AC is all there was, Id probably buy it. After all, there arent many proper 6DoF combat sims around, are there. And its not like paying $40 will ruin anyone.
Because maneuvering thrusters are so freakishly strong, ships seem to have zero mass and therefore flail all over the place when you're turning. **** handling, basically. This isn't even a debatable fact. It's why every ship has gimballed weapons everywhere. Trying to aim fixed weapons with these controls is very difficult.
As awesome as Diaspora is, when a $93M game made worked on by 200-500 people is being less than favourably compared to a free game made by a dozen people in their spare time, something's wrong.
Funny that you mention this, because I play with fixed weapons in an Aurora, and while aiming is a bit harder than in FS, it is not very difficult and the game is certainly playable in this way. Maybe you are just too used to simplistic Freespace controls that make aiming easy, almost like a FPS?
As awesome as Diaspora is, when a $93M game made worked on by 200-500 people is being less than favourably compared to a free game made by a dozen people in their spare time, something's wrong.About this, Diaspora isn't something built from the ground up by a dozen people. Diaspora was built on a foundation of over 10 years of work by a community on improving and enhancing an engine and editor which was built by :v:, a professional game company, who themselves built that on the foundations they'd laid with Freespace 1.
You mean remember when Derek Smart joined a thread which for 4 and a half pages had been insulting him? Yeah I remember that.
It started with Karajorma saying he was scared by the news and doubted that Derek Smart could 'do any better than his boys' and went downhill from there.
Yep, that's it right there. I'm too used to space sims and WW2 flight sims where my space/aircraft does what I want it to do. Oh, if only Star Citizen could save me from these simplistic ideas and teach me that half the battle should be with my own ship's controls. Then I'd be a true hardcore gamer.Because maneuvering thrusters are so freakishly strong, ships seem to have zero mass and therefore flail all over the place when you're turning. **** handling, basically. This isn't even a debatable fact. It's why every ship has gimballed weapons everywhere. Trying to aim fixed weapons with these controls is very difficult.
Funny that you mention this, because I play with fixed weapons in an Aurora, and while aiming is a bit harder than in FS, it is not very difficult and the game is certainly playable in this way. Maybe you are just too used to simplistic Freespace controls that make aiming easy, almost like a FPS?
FSO is an amazing project, and Diaspora is probably the pinnacle of what's been done with the engine, and it's one of the best spaace sims ever made. Yes, FSO's had a lot of work put into it over the years. But FSO has never had 300+ people working on it full time for 3 years and $93M in funding. I wouldn't be at all surprised if SC had more man-hours put into it than FSO has. SC's 'realistic' flight mechanics are what people typically like to point to when explaining why AC is so rough. That something that complex has never been done before. But they're wrong. Flight sims with this kind of fidelity have been done before.As awesome as Diaspora is, when a $93M game made worked on by 200-500 people is being less than favourably compared to a free game made by a dozen people in their spare time, something's wrong.About this, Diaspora isn't something built from the ground up by a dozen people. Diaspora was built on a foundation of over 10 years of work by a community on improving and enhancing an engine and editor which was built by :v:, a professional game company, who themselves built that on the foundations they'd laid with Freespace 1.
Freespace 2 in current form stacks up well against anything that exists in the genre afaik. And if it doesn't, I want to know about what it doesn't measure up to so I can play it! :)
I've seen Diaspora held up as a kind of shining example and showcase of what the modern capabilities of Freespace 2 are capable of. I would consider anything that could put the best this place has to offer in the shade as an outstanding achievement even with the great resources Roberts has at his disposal. He's got all those staff, resources and money, but they're starting from scratch with everything, and they don't have the got to be going on 20 years total of time from when work started on the original Freespace to now that's gone into making Freespace 2 what it is today.
The criticisms Aesaar brings up are basic problems that any successful game should easily overcome. That they haven't been, and that the standard response to anyone who asks about them is to deflect or attack, is a very troubling sign in itself.
He reads like a typical hyper-negative forum troll, picking apart each thing for more to hate. If he did it on the SC forums, he'd get traction if he was polite, or would get banned for being toxic.
He reads like a typical hyper-negative forum troll, picking apart each thing for more to hate. If he did it on the SC forums, he'd get traction if he was polite, or would get banned for being toxic.
This is absolutely hilarious to me as someone who actually watched Aesaar's journey from being optimistic and defensive about Star Citizen to being as scathing as he is now, spurred on largely by the dismal failure of Arena Commander to present any kind of interesting gameplay.
It's also hilarious when I myself started out mildly sceptical of SC and actively hostile to Elite: Dangerous only to have that perception completely turned around by Frontier's ability to deliver an engaging space combat simulator. And don't give me any fanboy excuses about 'scope', E:D has vastly more completed content.
The criticisms Aesaar brings up are basic problems that any successful game should easily overcome. That they haven't been, and that the standard response to anyone who asks about them is to deflect or attack, is a very troubling sign in itself.
it sounds to me like he doesnt know **** about how games actually get developed, and what little he does know doesn't apply to a crowdfunded project of unprecedented scope.
He reads like a typical hyper-negative forum troll, picking apart each thing for more to hate. If he did it on the SC forums, he'd get traction if he was polite, or would get banned for being toxic.
But insinuating that holding CIG accountable for their schedule slips and broken promises means you just don't know how game development works is a neat idea. You've clearly been spending a lot of time on RSI.
But insinuating that holding CIG accountable for their schedule slips and broken promises means you just don't know how game development works is a neat idea. You've clearly been spending a lot of time on RSI.
Implying that deadlines are relevant to game development
Deadlines are important to every project. If a team consistently fails to meet deadlines set by that team's leader, it shows a serious issue with management, either because he/she overestimates their team's abilities or underestimates the work required (or in Roberts' case, changes his mind about features all the time). The people handling the actual technical side of things at CIG are very, very talented. CIG management is incompetent. If it were not, they wouldn't have missed all their deadlines.
But insinuating that holding CIG accountable for their schedule slips and broken promises means you just don't know how game development works is a neat idea. You've clearly been spending a lot of time on RSI.
Implying that deadlines are relevant to game development
But insinuating that holding CIG accountable for their schedule slips and broken promises means you just don't know how game development works is a neat idea. You've clearly been spending a lot of time on RSI.
Implying that deadlines are relevant to game development
That's something I'm worried about actually. I think it could do some real damage to some of these people.
But insinuating that holding CIG accountable for their schedule slips and broken promises means you just don't know how game development works is a neat idea. You've clearly been spending a lot of time on RSI.
Implying that deadlines are relevant to game development
When the money eventually runs out due to deadlines being missed, I wonder how theircult followersbackers will react.
As for Elite, it has much less content than Star Citizen is supposed to have. You cannot leave your seat. It is not a bad game, but it is pretty shallow. I expect much more from SC. So its no surprise that Elite is already released, when it was much simpler to make. You are comparing apples and oranges. And dont even get me started on their weird fly model, Arena Commander in its unfinished state is already superior to that mess, IMHO..
Correction: You cannot do so now. You will be able to as part of the Horizon upgrades, incoming over the next year.
And as for the flight model, while that's ultimately a matter of personal preference, I think for all the comparisons between SC and Diaspora we're making in this regard, Elite actually managed to create a flight model that is more responsive and intuitive than both.
Missed deadlines are not a big deal in game development, especially if the game has large scope and also attempts to do something new. It happens often. Nobody will care about missed deadlines after the game is released and is good, anyway.Again, one or two missed deadlines is no big deal. Every deadline being missed is a big deal because it says very bad things about how competent management is. Sure, no one would care about missed deadlines if the game was good, but if the management is incompetent, the game isn't terribly likely to be good.
It ceases to be a problem if cockpits are optional. I don't know if they will be or not.They won't be. You'll be forced into all this immersion.
The criticisms Aesaar brings up are basic problems that any successful game should easily overcome. That they haven't been, and that the standard response to anyone who asks about them is to deflect or attack, is a very troubling sign in itself.
it sounds to me like he doesnt know **** about how games actually get developed, and what little he does know doesn't apply to a crowdfunded project of unprecedented scope.
It's very bad. It ceases to be a problem if cockpits are optional. I don't know if they will be or not. It feels claustrophobic. And having that box around the centre is going to make it harder to line things up properly and cause irritation.
This is the far future, we should be able to have entirely enclosed cockpits but the technology makes it so you can see everything as if you were looking through clear glass.
Desire to actually play this if released would take a big hit for me if I was forced to have that cockpit on screen.
That's an entirely different game design. The whole theme is to be inside this moving bunker. And each mode of "watching" is actually superior to Star Citizen's.
Too bad Star Citizen's going to be **** on VR because of the obsession with headbob and letterbox helmets.CIG's focus on realism and verisimilitude is applied to the most nonsensical things. Rather than design sensible, realistic helmets, CIG intentionally designed stupid helmets just so they'd obscure the edges of the screen, even though that helmet, used by an actual person, would almost completely obscure his/her peripheral vision (because screens have much smaller FoV than human eyes do). These are helmets designed for CQB environments:
e: Also VR doesn't compensate for **** cockpit visibility; why do you think real fighter jets have big unobstructed glass bubbles?
Is the single player game Roberts is producing (called "Squadron 42" IIRC) having problems too?Yes, it was originally meant to be released in Nov. 2014. Then last year they said that it'd be released in Fall 2015.
last year they said that it'd be released in Fall 2015.
Also you're missing a very possible aspect of game development, the fact that the cockpit is intentionally large to enable better frame rates. If the game has less to render, the GPU has less to render, ensuring better performance, and so forth. It's an ongoing cheat used on consoles for games like COD where they use large models and small FOVs.
Again, one or two missed deadlines is no big deal. Every deadline being missed is a big deal because it says very bad things about how competent management is. Sure, no one would care about missed deadlines if the game was good, but if the management is incompetent, the game isn't terribly likely to be good.
Last time I played WC3 (a year or 3 ago), disabling the cockpit actually gave an incredibly significant increase in frames per second. With cockpit on it would chug along at sub 20 fps.Also you're missing a very possible aspect of game development, the fact that the cockpit is intentionally large to enable better frame rates. If the game has less to render, the GPU has less to render, ensuring better performance, and so forth. It's an ongoing cheat used on consoles for games like COD where they use large models and small FOVs.
That's not what's happening here though. In ye olde days (like early Wing Commander olde), the cockpit stuff was there so that you could restrict 3D rendering to only a small part of the screen, but in SC, everything you see on screen goes through the 3D pipeline. They're not going to get a framerate increase by rendering cockpits.
Here, for comparison, is a screenshot of Elite: Dangerous' cockpit/HUD:
(http://www.pcinvasion.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/elite-dangerous-1.png)
Note how it too has a big block taking up the bottom of the screen, but the geniuses at Frontier used this otherwise useless space for the bulk of the HUD, which as a bonus now has a reliably contrasting background. In the rest of the screen, where the universe is, they put in a few small struts and the weapon information.
It's not hard to do this stuff right. CIG are getting it consistently wrong because of chronic mismanagement.
That means 41% of the pixels are the ship's structure (compared to 44% of Star Citizen).
That means 41% of the pixels are the ship's structure (compared to 44% of Star Citizen).
You see, it is not a significant difference. So I find complaints about SC cockpits unfounded, at least in contrast to Elite. And we would have to analyze more ships to really get to the truth. Per ship cockpit variation is probably going to be high both in Elite and in SC, so it is hard to judge just from one example.
You see, it is not a significant difference. So I find complaints about SC cockpits unfounded, at least in contrast to Elite. And we would have to analyze more ships to really get to the truth. Per ship cockpit variation is probably going to be high both in Elite and in SC, so it is hard to judge just from one example.
You see, it is not a significant difference. So I find complaints about SC cockpits unfounded, at least in contrast to Elite.
To add to what others have been saying, imagine what it would be like if the Star Citizen cockpit was clear except for a solid square in the centre.That means 41% of the pixels are the ship's structure (compared to 44% of Star Citizen).
You see, it is not a significant difference. So I find complaints about SC cockpits unfounded, at least in contrast to Elite. And we would have to analyze more ships to really get to the truth. Per ship cockpit variation is probably going to be high both in Elite and in SC, so it is hard to judge just from one example.
I will paw lovingly at the controls. Immerse me. LEt the immersion rise up over my knees and lap against my balls
There wasn't anything extreme about the trip I went on, but there were still some pretty narrow spaces to squeeze through. We also had to wade through some cold water, and I remember one guy shouting "Argh! My balls!" Funny. I was juuuuuust tall enough to avoid this, I mean down to the millimeter. The stalactites and stalacmite formations were extremely beautiful with water glistening off them as well. We also all ended up turning off our helmet lights to experience the total darkness. But there was something wondrous about the whole experience.
It's like I spent a few quality minutes thinking about the design of both cockpits and gave what I believe is a qualified analysis on both and you just went on and completely ignored it and cherry picked the one quantifiable point where SC is merely "slightly" worse than ED.
That's the kind of comment that makes me think, "yeah I'm glad I make thoughtful and justified comments, there's nothing like being quotemined and dismissed in a few sentences just a minute later".
Does that Star Citizen cockpit not bother you at all?
1 million - 640K = 360K in debt no?More like million + 640k = 1640k. And this is not in debt.
A move that, given his history with HLP, will likely come as a shock to nobody here.
Well this might be dredging up the past, but here you go (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=25162.0). Specifically I'm talking about Derek Smart himself turning up and trying to argue his point of view.
A username and password are being requested by http://www.mr-johnson.com. The site says: "Hoy Chummer! Bevor es wei"
Well this might be dredging up the past, but here you go (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=25162.0). Specifically I'm talking about Derek Smart himself turning up and trying to argue his point of view.
Loading that thread's second page caused something random to demand a password from me. You...may want to look into that.QuoteA username and password are being requested by http://www.mr-johnson.com. The site says: "Hoy Chummer! Bevor es wei"
Wasn't Squadron 42 supposed to be a part of Star Citizen?
Wasn't Squadron 42 supposed to be a part of Star Citizen?
No, it's been pretty explicit from the start that Squadron 42 will be a single-player prequel campaign that will have some mechanical differences of unknown level from Star Citizen and hence be a different though very closely related program. They'll probably run the same flight engine, but it's been clear they won't necessarily share other bits.
...from 20 to 50 to 71 missions.Yes, because massive numbers of missions are always easy to execute and unfailingly make campaigns better. /s
Even campaigns which have managed that sort of length and be goodIs that number of campaign !=0 ? No examples come to mind.
Sushi: he literally said in the video Akalabeth linked that SQ42 had been split into a trilogy, and part 1 was going to be "the equivalent of 70 Wing Commander-style missions".
So basically there's going to be 60 3 point patrol filler missions.
Sushi: he literally said in the video Akalabeth linked that SQ42 had been split into a trilogy, and part 1 was going to be "the equivalent of 70 Wing Commander-style missions".
I don't have a source on hand but last I heard, the "70 mission campaign" had gotten split into 5 episodic releases, with only the first episode due to show up in 2016. That sounds a lot more achievable.
Funny thing is, this forum better than probably any other, knows exactly what happens when you promise to deliver a 70 mission campaign. Either everything is very, very samey or it just never gets finished.Yeah, that's basically what I was insinuating. You said it better, and without a semi-appropriate gif too!
It's just simply not possible to come up with 70 good ideas for missions in such a short timespan. Even campaigns which have managed that sort of length and be good did so over the course of years and needed a really good storyline to make it work.
And on this last point, 10 hours of mocap? Do people remember that Witcher 3 has 16 hours of mo-caped sex alone?
And on this last point, 10 hours of mocap? Do people remember that Witcher 3 has 16 hours of mo-caped sex alone?
Source on the Witcher 3 statistic? I kinda want to see how they justify that if true.
Even campaigns which have managed that sort of length and been goodIs that number of campaign !=0 ? No examples come to mind.
So Alpha 2.0 goes on public test server today
CHRIS DETRACTORS ON SUICIDE WATCH
So Alpha 2.0 goes on public test server today
CHRIS DETRACTORS ON SUICIDE WATCH
Do you know what a proper game development stream looks like?
It looks like this:
But Tim's most legendary failure has to be Broken Age.
After asking for 400k in KickStarter money and collecting a record sum of 3.35 million, with an additional 100k donated off KickStarter, Tim Schafer took that money and created.......... Nothing.
The project fell through almost completely. Despite receiving roughly 9 times the money he was asking for, Schafer inflated his plans for the game and, as a result, was unable to complete even half of one half of it, announcing that the game will be split into 2 chapters but he only has the money to complete half of the first. This might have something to do with him blowing a chunk of the budget on hiring voice actors that include some of the most well known (and most expensive) in the industry, the creator of Adventure Time, the returning Jack Black and ****ing Elijah Wood.
He went on to beg his fans for more money, tell them he would not be asking for money from a publisher because he doesn't like them and because that would be "against the spirit of KickStarter" (unlike outright stealing the money you were given and then begging for more), and finally put what little of the game was already finished on early access to gather more funds, telling the people who donated money and expected a full game: "Just don't look".
Over a year and a half later Schafer finally released the second part which made everyone wonder what took him so ****ing long, considering the plot (of both games) makes no sense and everything is solved with bombs and deus ex machina, while the puzzles feel like "Babies first adventure game". But what made it obvious that the entire thing was a con is that he didn't change anything. The entire game is made out of preexisting assets, no new characters or locations are added and the two heroes who live in separate worlds just change places and solve almost the exact same **** as the first half but with the locations reversed. Writing the story was literally the only thing Schafer had to do to complete part 2, and it still took him more than 18 months, cost him an extra 50k and ended up being **** that feels like it was written on the fly.
All of his is made even more hilarious by the fact Tim responded to the success of his fundraiser by posting numerous pictures of himself eating, trowing around, burning, blowing his nose and wiping his ass with the money.
Wow... I really wonder if I should finally try to get a refund. Probably too much effort for money I considered lost the moment I pledged it.
And the worst part is that no alpha module they actually released is playable on my computer cause it seems a lot more than the minimum hardware requirements is necessary to run it :/
So Alpha 2.0 goes on public test server today
CHRIS DETRACTORS ON SUICIDE WATCH
(http://i.imgur.com/esOL5Zd.jpg)
So we've reached last year's claimed combined Spring/Summer 2015 milestone. Truly, this invalidates every problem with SC.
Meanwhile the module is crashing every 5 minutes, according to people playing it. Seems fairly obvious they rushed it to remove critic ammo, but what they released is nearly unplayable. Not joking about that. I watched a stream where the 'game' crashed so much that the guy stopped trying and quit before he even managed to get into his ship's cockpit.
Which, now that I think about it, explains why CIG hasn't shown any actual gameplay of 2.0.
So right now we are located somewhere between their summer goal and end of 2015 goal.When in that timeline were they supposed to implement game mechanics? Because they still haven't even roughly pinned that down yet.
I saw someone get in a turret and operate it. The ships seem to have problems with more than one person on them at a time. I saw a guy phase out of his ship when someone else flew away with it. Then it hung there over the pad, he jet packed up into the bay, and when he tried to enter a crew door the center of the screen pinched like it was doing the warp drive, then the ship ejected itself from around him and appeared over the opposite side of the pad.
Someone had a description of this release last night that completely nailed it. It's an object viewer. You can "fly" around, there's hints of neat things hidden about, the individual assets look good, but it's almost all "look but don't touch". You could have nearly the same experience zooming around in a model viewer.
So, in my brief unstable time in the PTU, the biggest thing I've noticed so far is that the weird shaking you used to get from flying far out in Arena Commander is back now. It seems to be fine as long as you're near a point-of-interest, but if you go to cruise and travel off the beaten path just a bit, things go all to hell and you're disconnected shortly afterwards. Does anyone have an idea as to why this is? I thought the 64-bit conversion and camera-relative rendering was supposed to fix this. It does make me a little worried for exploration and such, since I can't even really fly around Port Olisar without getting this issue.Current hypothesis is that they didn't change to 64-bit maps, they're just loading 32-bit maps at each point of interest.
Do you know what a proper game development stream looks like?
It looks like this:
Tim "3.4 million dollar man" Schafer
Tim "The Scam Man" Schafer
Tim "Scokpuppet" Schanfer
Of all the people...you use him as an example?
New patch is out, fixing many crashes and increasing player count to 15000. I got an invite too, but I dont have time to test it today. Will post my thoughts when I do.
So far my experience with the "Baby PU" has been as follows:
First time trying to install it, the launcher crashes
Second time trying to install it, something happens, my USB ports get disabled, and I have to restart my PC.
Third time trying to install it worked, however launching the game caused an immediate CTD
Second time trying to launch the game worked, but I crashed in the loading screen when trying to enter the PU
Second time trying to load the PU, it crashed again
Said **** it, I'll go mess around with my ugly **** Aurora so I launch the hangar module, get in just fine
Get in my ship, this takes around 6 seconds. Open my bunk door, about two, get in my bunk takes around 10 seconds. Something bugs out so I can't get out of my bunk, so I escape out and press "Exit to desktop"
The game crashes when Exit to Desktop is pressed.
don't touch the baby poo
Does anyone know if the lawsuit on The Escapist went ahead? I can't find anything, but I don't know if for such a thing there wouldn't be any talk of it.No that was just a part of Robert's coke-fueled ranting that went nowhere, sort of like when he talks about the game itself
No that was just a part of Robert's coke-fueled ranting that went nowhere, sort of like when he talks about the game itself
Does anyone know if the lawsuit on The Escapist went ahead? I can't find anything, but I don't know if for such a thing there wouldn't be any talk of it.Very unlikely, because under US libel laws, they'd almost certainly lose. CIG are as full of **** as Derek Smart.
Meanwhile the money continues to just roll in. Recently I looked and they had about $96.5M and over 1M star citizens. Now they have $99.7M. So very soon they will hit $100M. Surely if the money continues to flow at that speed they won't go bust. But how long can it continue? Surely it can't continue indefinitely.They always get a surge of money around October and November because of CitCon and the anniversary sale. The reason it's such a huge difference is because June, July, August, and September were record lows. They actually made less money this November than they did last November. Funding is definitely slowing down. Goons and DS calculated that their operating costs are probably around $2M per month (take that with a grain of salt), which would explain the recent downsizing in Austin and rush to get something out for the November sale. If the November sale had been a bust, they'd have been in serious trouble. As it is, October and November probably got them enough to last for another few months until the next jpeg sale.
/shrugs. We'll see who's right, eventually, I guess. Possibly the truth will lay somewhere inbetween. ;-)Golden Mean Fallacy. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_to_moderation)
Meanwhile the money continues to just roll in. Recently I looked and they had about $96.5M and over 1M star citizens. Now they have $99.7M. So very soon they will hit $100M. Surely if the money continues to flow at that speed they won't go bust. But how long can it continue? Surely it can't continue indefinitely.At the rate this is going, they'll soon be building those ships in 1:1 scale and launching them into space. With that kind of money, why make it a computer game? :) Buy a few SLS launches and set up a fully functional deep space colony for one million people to live in.
I found a stats thing they have. It says they took in $681,399 on November 29th alone, and $5,374,050 in November. That was more than any of the other listed 6 months and October was more than the other 5 months. The rate they're taking in money is soaring rather than showing any signs of slowing down. Just this week they've taken in $3,027,358, so December is probably going to shatter November for the amount they've taken in at this rate.
Meanwhile the money continues to just roll in. Recently I looked and they had about $96.5M and over 1M star citizens. Now they have $99.7M. So very soon they will hit $100M. Surely if the money continues to flow at that speed they won't go bust. But how long can it continue? Surely it can't continue indefinitely.At the rate this is going, they'll soon be building those ships in 1:1 scale and launching them into space. With that kind of money, why make it a computer game? :) Buy a few SLS launches and set up a fully functional deep space colony for one million people to live in.
I found a stats thing they have. It says they took in $681,399 on November 29th alone, and $5,374,050 in November. That was more than any of the other listed 6 months and October was more than the other 5 months. The rate they're taking in money is soaring rather than showing any signs of slowing down. Just this week they've taken in $3,027,358, so December is probably going to shatter November for the amount they've taken in at this rate.
Funding is definitely slowing down. Goons and DS calculated that their operating costs are probably around $2M per month (take that with a grain of salt)
That $2M is in salaries and rent. It does not cover things like building three mocap studios and hiring two others (including the goddamn Imaginarium). It doesn't cover the costs of a new office in Santa Monica. It doesn't cover needing to pay for celebrity voice actors. It doesn't cover taking a vacation to Monaco during the Grand Prix, and it doesn't cover purchases like paying $2000 for a desk (https://www.restorationhardware.com/catalog/product/product.jsp?productId=prod280189) (and that's by no means the only piece of insanely overpriced furniture they bought off that site). It is their basic month-to-month expenses.Funding is definitely slowing down. Goons and DS calculated that their operating costs are probably around $2M per month (take that with a grain of salt)
They have $100 million, so if they operating costs are $2 million per month, by naive calculation they have enough money to go for 50 months. Star Citizen is in development for only three years currently, so that is a year of cash reserve remaining. Not to mention that operating costs at the beginning of development were certainly lower than now, thus my calculation probably underestimates their true cash reserves..
That $2M is in salaries and rent. It does not cover things like building three mocap studios and hiring two others (including the goddamn Imaginarium). It doesn't cover the costs of a new office in Santa Monica. It doesn't cover needing to pay for celebrity voice actors. It doesn't cover taking a vacation to Monaco during the Grand Prix, and it doesn't cover purchases like paying $2000 for a desk (https://www.restorationhardware.com/catalog/product/product.jsp?productId=prod280189) (and that's by no means the only piece of insanely overpriced furniture they bought off that site). It is their basic month-to-month expenses.Funding is definitely slowing down. Goons and DS calculated that their operating costs are probably around $2M per month (take that with a grain of salt)
They have $100 million, so if they operating costs are $2 million per month, by naive calculation they have enough money to go for 50 months. Star Citizen is in development for only three years currently, so that is a year of cash reserve remaining. Not to mention that operating costs at the beginning of development were certainly lower than now, thus my calculation probably underestimates their true cash reserves..
Game started development in Dec. 2011, btw. Chris said they'd already been working for a year when he explained why a 2014 release date was feasible (lol).
Also, FYI, they have *raised* $100 million. That doesn't mean they have that amount right now.
They have worked on the game since 2011 but that was more of a pre-production phase, which does not cost much. It wasnt until late 2013 (two years ago) that the number of developers increased considerably up to current levels. And they also have income from subscribers, which supposedly goes to cover marketing and community costs (probably that table, too) and is not counted in the crowdfunded sum.I always enjoy it when citizens constantly move up the 'real' date that SC started development because the actual one doesn't match their internal narrative. This time next year, development won't have 'really' started until Fall 2014.
I am not moving dates or commenting on when development started or didnt start. You are putting words in my mouth and twisting them there.
What I said is that it takes time to ramp up production on a game as huge as SC. You seem to think that CIG finished their initial crowdfunding campaign and immediately should have hired 200 devs with $2 million in operating costs. Or if they didnt, then they are slacking. Obviously, thats not how game development works at all.
In other news, 2.0 could be released to live today
https://i.imgur.com/Cb321bv.jpg
Yet again, Chris is about to prove all his detractors wrong! or is he
I am not moving dates or commenting on when development started or didnt start. You are putting words in my mouth and twisting them there.Because it doesn't matter. I'm not trying to figure out how much money they have left because, even with current $2M routine operating costs, I don't know how much all their other crap cost. I don't know how many 800$ tables they bought for their studios (except that it was at least 6), I don't know how much they paid their celebrities, and I don't know how much their new office and three mocap studios cost. It's a fruitless exercise.
What I said is that it takes time to ramp up production on a game as huge as SC. You seem to think that CIG finished their initial crowdfunding campaign and immediately should have hired 200 devs with $2 million in operating costs. Or if they didnt, then they are slacking. Obviously, thats not how game development works at all.
Yet again, Chris is about to prove all his detractors wrong! or is heI thought they released 2.0 three weeks ago?
But sure, he's definitely proving me wrong by releasing 2.0 now when I actually thought he'd release it at CitCon. It's very amusing that citizens treat every release like a major victory over the detractors even though those releases are years late.
That wasn't at CitCon. They released nothing at CitCon. They actually managed to disappoint even me.But sure, he's definitely proving me wrong by releasing 2.0 now when I actually thought he'd release it at CitCon. It's very amusing that citizens treat every release like a major victory over the detractors even though those releases are years late.
CitCon release was only a test server release, still full of crashes and blocking bugs. This time 2.0 is released onto live server, with most serious bugs fixed.
Oh no, a very ambitious game is a bit late, stop the presses! :D Once the game is finished and fullfils even half of what they promised, nobody will give a damn that it was a few years late.Assuming it ever gets finished. So far, they're taking the Duke Nukem Forever approach to development.
Ambition isn't praiseworthy by default, not if it's not accompanied by good sense and ability. As a matter of game development history, games who tried to do too much and mix too many genres at once usually failed, miserably, in the playability department.
Then Chris Roberts comes along, the maker of previous games which, while somewhat fun, were better known for their story and custscenes than they were for good gameplay (as things like the X-Wing series actually had much better gameplay when it came to flying and doing missions than any of the WC ones). He strikes a space-sim deprived market at the right time, says all the right things, and has the most successful crowdfunding campaign ever.
Years later, he still doesn't have enough money, is selling virtual spaceships for thousands of dollars to keep it afloat, at the same time spending cash on celebrities and hiring linguists to develop new alien languages for SC; at the same time, they never released anything actually playable - Arena Commander's flight model is atrocious and turns your HOTAS into a very expensive, glorified mouse, and from what I've seen on the FPS module, the less said the better. There's writing on the wall here, and it's not saying "this will be amazing".
Ambition is very nice and necessary, yes, but so is setting rational, realistic goals and knowing how to reach them.
Oh no, a very ambitious game is a bit late, stop the presses! :D Once the game is finished and fullfils even half of what they promised, nobody will give a damn that it was a few years late.
Now it is a standard 6DOF newtonian flight model. If you dont like it, then the issue may have less to do with flight model itself and more to do with you not liking 6DOF realistic newtonian flight models as a whole.
I dont see what is so bad about SC flight model at all. It is certainly playable and enjoyable. Ship wobbling of the past is basically eliminated. That was the only serious issue I had with it. Now it is a standard 6DOF newtonian flight model. If you dont like it, then the issue may have less to do with flight model itself and more to do with you not liking 6DOF realistic newtonian flight models as a whole. Which is your problem, not the game. IMHO the flight model, even in its unfinished state, is already better and more fun to play than say Elite Dangerous one.(http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/youre_serious_futurama.gif)
"I'm confident now that we'll be able to compete with any AAA game out there,” he says. “I can't do what I did with Freelancer, or what id did with Rage, and take five years to release it. At that point, the moment in time will be gone. But in two years, it will be pretty great.”
No, it's not that I don't like 6DOF combat. I find E:D's flight and combat mechanics so much better than SC's it isn't even funny. Like pretty much every other aspect of development, E:D has its **** together, while SC concentrates on flash over substance to sell more jpegs.
I don't like SC's flight model because it's ****. Thrusters are insanely powerful and ships have no mass, so they tumble around the sky like they're toys. At least E:D ships feel like the big lumbering lumps of metal than they are.
Seriously, look at this ****:
(http://i.giphy.com/tUilVT3gQDqyk.gif)
They feel like toys. There's absolutely no sense of mass or inertia. They may as well be balloons. Ships in FSO feel weightier than this.
And you know what? This isn't something they can fix easily. Their flight models are ****ed because they design a ship before they touch the flight model, so you've got a ship designed 100% for form over function, and then you're trying to make it actually function. They need a ship to turn better? Their only option is to make the maneuvering thrusters more powerful (also affects lateral speed and acceleration). Which is how you end up with maneuvering thrusters that are nearly as strong as the main ones. It's CR's stupid obsession with ~realism~ ruining the game.
I also find it very funny that g-forces and G-LOC are only a problem if you're sitting in the pilot seat. If you're not in the pilot seat, the ship can be spinning at 3000RPM and you won't be able to tell unless you look outside.
Also, the FPS is just a generic CoD clone but with really terrible animations.
unrelated, from way back in 2012:Quote from: http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2012-12-13-star-citizen-well-compete-with-any-aaa-game-out-there"I'm confident now that we'll be able to compete with any AAA game out there,” he says. “I can't do what I did with Freelancer, or what id did with Rage, and take five years to release it. At that point, the moment in time will be gone. But in two years, it will be pretty great.”
lol
Your gif shows two ships colliding. That has little to do with flight model, that is just physics freaking out.Physics has everything to do with the flight model when the flight model is built from the ground up around physics. It's a perfect example of what I mean when I say ships have no mass. You've got a Glaive literally picking up a ship twice its size and it may as well be a balloon for how heavy it feels. (https://youtu.be/fs2u5UP7u3M?t=42)
However, you are correct that thrusters in SC were really powerful. One reason behind it is that there was no jerk mechanics implemented until this month. You pressed a button, and the thruster went immediately to full thrust. This is not true in 2.0 anymore, acceleration has a rate of change now, and thus ships will react much more smoothly to controls. Especially bigger ships. Another thing to realize is that most ships in game so far are small fighters. Those are supposed to be very maneuverable, and should feel that way, too. Only bigger ships should feel like lumbering lumps of metal, IMHO.Small fighters IRL weigh 20 tonnes. Ships in SC feel like they don't even weigh 1.
Your gif shows two ships colliding. That has little to do with flight model, that is just physics freaking out.Physics has everything to do with the flight model when the flight model is built from the ground up around physics. It's a perfect example of what I mean when I say ships have no mass. You've got a Glaive literally picking up a ship twice its size and it may as well be a balloon for how heavy it feels. (https://youtu.be/fs2u5UP7u3M?t=42)
No, that's not what happens. All that happens is that the Glaive's blades scoop the Constellation up. That's what the guy in it was trying to do. It happens all the time with ships of all types on the landing pads. But I do think it's amusing that you think typical ship behavior is a physics bug. Speaks very highly of the game, doesn't it?Your gif shows two ships colliding. That has little to do with flight model, that is just physics freaking out.Physics has everything to do with the flight model when the flight model is built from the ground up around physics. It's a perfect example of what I mean when I say ships have no mass. You've got a Glaive literally picking up a ship twice its size and it may as well be a balloon for how heavy it feels. (https://youtu.be/fs2u5UP7u3M?t=42)
As I said, thats just game physics freaking out - an obviously bugged behaviour not representative of normal non-bugged flying or intended final state of the game. The Constellation is literally pierced by the Glaive, thats why the abrupt movements happen.
Masses, thruster powers etc. in game are far from final. The core flight model was being worked on right until last month. Obviously, tweaking detailed stats before the system is even implemented is pretty pointless. When I say that SC flight model is really good and superior to games like Freespace or Elite, I mean that spaceships generally fly like spaceships should. Games such as Diaspora or Babylon 5: Ive Found Her have SC-like flight models, too, and they are the pinnacle of space flight genre. I dont mean that all the masses and thruster power parameters of all ships are just right. Such tweaking comes later in development.Again, because of the way they design their ships and flight mechanics, this isn't something that can be easily fixed. They've made a system where ship stats are intrinsically tied to the physics engine and ship models. To fix this, they'd need to revamp the whole system.
No, that's not what happens. All that happens is that the Glaive's blades scoop the Constellation up. That's what the guy in it was trying to do.
Again, because of the way they design their ships and flight mechanics, this isn't something that can be easily fixed. They've made a system where ship stats are intrinsically tied to the physics engine and ship models. To fix this, they'd need to revamp the whole system.
Hell, flying an Eagle in E:D is much, much closer to Diaspora than SC is. You haven't played it, have you?
It is not a collision bug. It's a collision. That's it. This is just how SC ships interact when they collide (because they have no mass). There's a dozen videos on Youtube that can attest to that fact. It moves around because the Glaive pilot is maneuvering, but there's no bug there. There's only two ships that have no real mass, one of which is making thruster inputs. Hell, apparently someone submitted a support ticket and got told it was all working as intended, according to the Reddit comment thread.QuoteNo, that's not what happens. All that happens is that the Glaive's blades scoop the Constellation up. That's what the guy in it was trying to do.
Perhaps. My point is, its a collision bug, not a flight model feature.
Nope, they just need to tweak the ship mass / thruster power parameters. That is literally all there is to it. You can achieve any desired physically possible behaviour just by tweaking those numbers, as long as you have enough thrusters on all sides for 6DOF flight (which all ships have). Well, that and the max speed of course, which is another free parameter.Not that easy. See, you can't change turn rates without changing acceleration in every direction. You can't make a ship that turns fast but has poor lateral movement, because it uses the same thrusters for both. And that why ships feel so weightless: because they want fast, responsive turn speeds.
Inertia too low? Increase mass / decrease thruster power until it feels as desired. Inertia too high? Do the opposite.
You can't make a ship that turns fast but has poor lateral movement, because it uses the same thrusters for both.
I think all those sales made buying second-hand ships (or promises of ships) a less attractive option, but don't quote me on that.
Why the hell would you want to do such a thing?So ship turning is fast and responsive like you want for a fast-paced fighter sim, but other ship movements actually have some inertia. So you don't need to have a null-mass fighter with maneuvering thrusters that are nearly as powerful as the main thruster just so it won't turn like a cow.
Cobra: https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen_trades
You're not gonna get the prices you'd have gotten last year, but LTI ships should still make a profit. I strongly recommend using a middleman. I used Kane.
Cobra: https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen_trades
You're not gonna get the prices you'd have gotten last year, but LTI ships should still make a profit. I strongly recommend using a middleman. I used Kane.
I don't even know how any of this **** works. :blah:
If that's a daunting prospect for you it's also possible to get a refund from CIG directly, though they'll try their damned hardest to hold on to the money as keeping Ben fed is incredibly expensive
If that's a daunting prospect for you it's also possible to get a refund from CIG directly, though they'll try their damned hardest to hold on to the money as keeping Ben fed is incredibly expensive
If you want to compare Star Citizen to a video game, why not compare it to something that's cheaper?
Witcher 3 was 81 million
Skyrim was likewise 80 million
And these games are done.
Comparing it to TOR or GTA5 is actually misleading in my opinion because those games are renown as some of the most expensive games of the modern age, and they are not representative of the norm.
Squadron 42 isn't that ambitious. And yet it's been constantly delayed just like everything else.
In 4 years and $100M, CIG have released nothing but an elaborate tech demo (even if Sandi thinks they've already delivered a $30 game).
In the same amount of time and with half the money (because actual development cost was ~$40M, rest was marketing), CDPR delivered what's probably the finest RPG ever made.
S42 is not the whole game, just part of it. Do you have a source for the marketing/actual development fraction of the cost? You dont know when the development began, since its not open to the public.They talk about it in this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MyMiT4OUy4). And I seriously doubt development of TW3 started before TW2 was released, so that means late 2011.
You are also ignoring important differences - CD Projekt is already a very well established company with studios and 2 decades of experience. Witcher 3 was even a sequel! CIG had almost no development infrastructure established before the start of the crowdfunding campaign and did not exist 5 years ago. Star Citizen is a new game, not a sequel. You are expecting a company to go from nothing at all to beyond CD Projekt in 3-4 years?So why are you expecting that a new company without much experience is going to successfully deliver a game this ambitious? Especially considering that the last game the guy at the top tried to make was a complete failure that only made it to release because Microsoft stepped in and kicked him off the project? They've stated they haven't even finished the design document for core gameplay systems like ship customization, and they've refused to elaborate on others at all. All they've managed to do is distract you with shiny jpegs while remaining silent on gameplay beyond vague ideas.
The only mistake CIG made was initially publishing the overly optimistic release schedule. By now they realized their mistake and switched to "when its done" model, refusing to state longterm dates, which is a good thing. This is how it should have been from the start (Minecraft/DayZ development model). If you really cant accept such change, feel free to request a refund (you can always buy the game after it comes out and is good). There are many more people like me who dont mind more waiting, even several years of waiting, if it is necessary and means a better game in the end. And its not like we get nothing in the meantime, Alpha versions are available for playing, and the open AAA game development process is an unprecedented and interesting show of its own, probably alone worth the $45.Ah yes, the Duke Nukem Forever approach to game development. Worked out so well in the past, hasn't it?
SQ42 is a standalone game, it isn't terribly ambitious, and doesn't require them to overcome the biggest technological hurdle they'll need to overcome for the PU (that being the netcode). Its scope hasn't increased like the PU has, so feature creep isn't an excuse. CR claimed it would be done last year. So where is it?
So why are you expecting that a new company without much experience is going to successfully deliver a game this ambitious? Especially considering that the last game the guy at the top tried to make was a complete failure that only made it to release because Microsoft stepped in and kicked him off the project? They've stated they haven't even finished the design document for core gameplay systems like ship customization, and they've refused to elaborate on others at all. All they've managed to do is distract you with shiny jpegs while remaining silent on gameplay beyond vague ideas.
What part of this project inspires confidence? Beyond having taken $100M of preorders, I mean.
Ah yes, the Duke Nukem Forever approach to game development. Worked out so well in the past, hasn't it?
EDIT: more weightless ship movement:
You are also ignoring important differences - CD Projekt is already a very well established company with studios and 2 decades of experience. Witcher 3 was even a sequel! CIG had almost no development infrastructure established before the start of the crowdfunding campaign and did not exist 5 years ago. Star Citizen is a new game, not a sequel. You are expecting a company to go from nothing at all to beyond CD Projekt in 3-4 years?So why are you expecting that a new company without much experience is going to successfully deliver a game this ambitious? Especially considering that the last game the guy at the top tried to make was a complete failure that only made it to release because Microsoft stepped in and kicked him off the project? They've stated they haven't even finished the design document for core gameplay systems like ship customization, and they've refused to elaborate on others at all. All they've managed to do is distract you with shiny jpegs while remaining silent on gameplay beyond vague ideas.
What part of this project inspires confidence? Beyond having taken $100M of preorders, I mean.
QuoteSo why are you expecting that a new company without much experience is going to successfully deliver a game this ambitious? Especially considering that the last game the guy at the top tried to make was a complete failure that only made it to release because Microsoft stepped in and kicked him off the project? They've stated they haven't even finished the design document for core gameplay systems like ship customization, and they've refused to elaborate on others at all. All they've managed to do is distract you with shiny jpegs while remaining silent on gameplay beyond vague ideas.
Yes I expect them to, just not in 3-4 years. You can probably double that.
How do you know whats in their design documents? Are you a designer at CIG?
And no, its not a standalone gameSandi disagrees. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXGsz0ZoduY&feature=youtu.be&t=455) But I'm sure you know better than she does, right?
Yes I expect them to, just not in 3-4 years. You can probably double that.At which point their models will be dated and they'll redesign them like they've already done with half their ships. But the idea that this game will take so long to make that it'll look dated by the time it releases is really funny to me.
How do you know whats in their design documents? Are you a designer at CIG?No, I just listened to what they said during the anniversary livestream. (https://youtu.be/s7u7cgRY-fc?t=5095)
Alpha 2.0, for example. The whole open game development thing, where we can see what they are working on at the moment and see the progress.You were here championing SC long before 2.0 came out, so it's clearly not 2.0 that gives you such confidence. And their development is far from open. Refer back to what I said about their silence regarding the specifics of important gameplay mechanics.
Nope, Duke Nukem was developed in secret, there were no continual updates and alpha versions released.This is utterly irrelevant. What doomed DNF isn't that they developed everything behind closed doors, it's that they didn't know when to say "good enough". They always tried to incorporate the latest tech and keep everything top-of-the-line, and that meant they were incapable of meeting a release date. CIG is already doing this. Do you think they're suddenly going to stop?
Every single piece of art you saw last year has been revamped since then, every single ship has either been reworked or is scheduled to be.
Low weight, or too powerful thrusters? Would look the same.And you're not listening to a word I'm saying:
Easy fix anyway - just increase ship mass. You are nitpicking.
To get fast, responsive turn speeds, ships need to have very powerful thrusters and low mass. If they don't have that, ships feel sluggish and unresponsive in turns, and inertia makes them overshoot a lot because inertia is the enemy of fast and precise movement. That's how it was for a while after AC released. Ships flew like they had mass, but combined with their broken FBW controller, it wasn't terribly fun to fly and fixed weapons were completely useless. Now ships are fairly responsive. You don't overshoot much when turning. But they have no mass. There's absolutely no weight and no inertia to any movement. And that's the problem with SC's flight model. They've made it so you can't have the responsive handling a fast-paced fighter sim needs without having an essentially weightless ship. This is an inevitable result of their physical thruster-based flight model. It can't be fixed without cheating, and CR doesn't want to cheat because ~realism~.
QuoteSo why are you expecting that a new company without much experience is going to successfully deliver a game this ambitious? Especially considering that the last game the guy at the top tried to make was a complete failure that only made it to release because Microsoft stepped in and kicked him off the project? They've stated they haven't even finished the design document for core gameplay systems like ship customization, and they've refused to elaborate on others at all. All they've managed to do is distract you with shiny jpegs while remaining silent on gameplay beyond vague ideas.
Yes I expect them to, just not in 3-4 years. You can probably double that.
How do you know whats in their design documents? Are you a designer at CIG?
Another 3 or 4 years, hmm? When most estimates have CIG somewhere between 2 or 3 months from running out of money? Tell me, how many more jpegs do you expect CIG to sell?
Or how much more untapped backer potential there is, unlocked when improved versions of the game are released in the future (yes, there is a game, not just jpegs, you seem to have missed that).They're seriously worried about attracting more backers, hence the ponzi scheme referral system and "limited" cash-only packages during the sale. Seems pretty obvious they're reaching market saturation. Milking the whales not good enough anymore, I guess.
Sandi disagrees. But I'm sure you know better than she does, right?
At which point their models will be dated and they'll redesign them like they've already done with half their ships. But the idea that this game will take so long to make that it'll look dated by the time it releases is really funny to me.
Do you keep up with this game's development at all, or is "oooh, shiny" the extent of your research?
Calling it now, you'll think this is a great answer and won't understand why it's so vague.
You were here championing SC long before 2.0 came out, so it's clearly not 2.0 that gives you such confidence.
This is utterly irrelevant. What doomed DNF isn't that they developed everything behind closed doors, it's that they didn't know when to say "good enough". They always tried to incorporate the latest tech and keep everything top-of-the-line, and that meant they were utterly incapable of meeting a release date. CIG is already doing this. Do you think they're suddenly going to stop?
To get fast, responsive turn speeds, ships need to have very powerful thrusters and low mass. If they don't have that, ships feel sluggish and unresponsive in turns, and inertia makes them overshoot a lot because inertia is the enemy of fast and precise movement. That's how it was for a while after AC released. Ships flew like they had mass, but combined with their broken FBW controller, it wasn't terribly fun to fly and fixed weapons were completely useless. Now ships are fairly responsive. You don't overshoot much when turning. But they have no mass. There's absolutely no weight and no inertia to any movement. And that's the problem with SC's flight model. They've made it so you can't have the responsive handling a fast-paced fighter sim needs without having an essentially weightless ship. This is an inevitable result of their physical thruster-based flight model. It can't be fixed without cheating, and CR doesn't want to cheat because ~realism~.
<Blind faith>(http://i1054.photobucket.com/albums/s490/kingspoon/Junk/1294212062741_zpsyrsymcgv.gif~original)
Nowhere is she saying that the games dont share engine and assets. Thats all it takes to make my point right.What? You said that the reason SQ42 isn't done is that it isn't a standalone game, when it is. Hell, CR already said SQ42 won't even have the final version of their flight model. Your excuses are getting increasingly flimsy.
Considering that advances in game graphics pretty much slowed down to a crawl in the last few years (you can blame consoles for a lot when it comes to that), this is the last thing I am afraid of. Original Crysis still looks very good, and that was released in 2007. Metro 2033 still looks better than most games on the market, that was 5 years ago.This argument would hold a lot more water if they hadn't said that most of their assets from last year had been redesigned. They obviously thought their models no longer met the standards they were after.
Perhaps they dont have yet determined that the extent of loadout customization that should be allowed in SQ42? I mean, I think deciding about such a thing would come later, when they can actually test in game how much customization can player be allowed to do, to not break the intended mission flow and balance.If they'd pinned something substantial down, they could have done more than repeating the same vague stuff they first talked about 3 years ago. And something as fundamental as ship customisation is something you want to have pinned down before you start making missions (just like your flight models), not after. You can't make fun and balanced missions if you don't know what the player and enemy ships are capable of.
Before that, it was Arena Commander. Now its Alpha 2.0. My point is, early versions are being released, there is obvious progress happening with the game. Thats why I have confidence.
CIG has already stopped doing this long ago. The scope of the game was fixed when $65 million was reached (the last stretch goal). Asset polish here and there is not bloat, iterative development is not bloat.
Every single piece of art you saw last year has been revamped since then, every single ship has either been reworked or is scheduled to be.
See:
http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=90080.msg1807235#msg1807235
Small agile ships like fighters should feel like that, there is nothing wrong with them. Bigger ships should feel heavier (both turning and moving), their mass should be increased, but you dont need to change flight model for that. Cutlass should have its mass increased a bit IMHO, but its really not that bad. Its a nitpick at this point, obviously tweaking such individual ship parameters would come after the engine is stable, so they can be tested against each other in many scenarios.
I don't know why you even try, Aesaar. It seems like your efforts would be better spend talking to a wall. You'd probably get a more intelligent response from a wall at least.I don't know anymore. Maybe because this is one of the few places where SC conversation isn't shut down by cultist morons. I'm stubborn.
I don't know anymore. Maybe because this is one of the few places where SC conversation isn't shut down by cultist morons. I'm stubborn.
(http://i.imgur.com/o4AD57T.jpg)Dear god. :wtf:
While it's funny to see Cultizens talk about how ridiculously super realistic innovative and whatever SC is going to be you can't really compare India's space program to videogames.
I mean, SW:TOR cost $200M and it wasn't doing anything that different aside from polish(and full VA). GTA V was pretty much a standard GTA game with MORE stuff and it cost $137M to develop and a ****-ton more to market.
Videogames more expensive than most real-life groundbreaking sscience is nothing new.
And I sure hope the two games won't share an engine. That would be very dumb. A singleplayer sim doesn't need a lot of the **** an MMO sandbox does. There's absolutely no reason they need to wait for the PU version of the engine.
This argument would hold a lot more water if they hadn't said that most of their assets from last year had been redesigned. They obviously thought their models no longer met the standards they were after.
And something as fundamental as ship customisation is something you want to have pinned down before you start making missions (just like your flight models), not after. You can't make fun and balanced missions if you don't know what the player and enemy ships are capable of.
Every single space sim I've ever played manages to have weightier fighters than SC does.
So your confidence comes from them making nothing but tech demos in the same amount of time a competent studio takes to make a full game. Okay then.
Have you even considered that they actually never thought the models meet the final standards (after all, they were pretty ugly), and planned from the start to iteratively improve them - improving them in multiple incremental passes over time, as the engine gains features and modelers gain experience with the workflow?
Why should they waste time making 2 different engines, when PU engine needs to be made anyway? Just so they can release SQ42 sooner, at the cost of releasing PU even later? How would that be better? They would just waste development time for no good reason whatsoever. Squadron 42 is standalone because you play it separately from the PU, thats all. You are reading too much into what Sandy said if you think she meant something deeper than that. It is not standalone when it comes to engine and assets, it shares a ton of that with PU.
Have you even considered that they actually never thought the models meet the final standards (after all, they were pretty ugly), and planned from the start to iteratively improve them - improving them in multiple incremental passes over time, as the engine gains features and modelers gain experience with the workflow?
You can make WIP missions that are only roughly balanced and then balance them well before shipping. Such detailed balance testing comes late in the development, when all the gameplay is pinned down. Not when the flight model is still evolving.
You know that in Freespace you can press one button (afterburner), and your ship goes from 0 to almost max speed in a fraction of a second? SC does not have anymore agile fighters than Freespace - Aurora or Hornet already handles well and they weigh exactly as they should. Only bigger ships are too agile, and fixing that requires a simple mass increase, not reworking a whole flight model. I dont know if you have noticed, but in SC all the bigger ships are very underweight, because someone early in development just made up their weights by comparing their lengths, while in reality weight scales with length cubed. This doesnt matter yet because masses of bigger ships will all be changed down the road during balancing anyway.
A new company, heavily modified game engine AND a full game? Or an established studio reusing a prior game engine? Game like SC is harder to make than Witcher 3 or Elite, so of course it is going to take longer. Around 5 years, Id say. Thats 2017-2018 release. You are just being impatient, IMHO.
Why should they waste time making 2 different engines, when PU engine needs to be made anyway? Just so they can release SQ42 sooner, at the cost of releasing PU even later? How would that be better? They would just waste development time for no good reason whatsoever. Squadron 42 is standalone because you play it separately from the PU, thats all. You are reading too much into what Sandy said if you think she meant something deeper than that. It is not standalone when it comes to engine and assets, it shares a ton of that with PU."How would releasing a game help with the perception that they're never going to release a game?"
Have you even considered that they actually never thought the models meet the final standards (after all, they were pretty ugly), and planned from the start to iteratively improve them - improving them in multiple incremental passes over time, as the engine gains features and modelers gain experience with the workflow?For this kind of development, there's no meaningful difference, except that your suggestion makes them look like morons. And yeah, what The_E said.
You can make WIP missions that are only roughly balanced and then balance them well before shipping. Such detailed balance testing comes late in the development, when all the gameplay is pinned down. Not when the flight model is still evolving.If you haven't figured out your core gameplay, you can storyboard missions. That's pretty much the extent of what you can do.
You know that in Freespace you can press one button (afterburner), and your ship goes from 0 to almost max speed in a fraction of a second? SC does not have anymore agile fighters than Freespace - Aurora or Hornet already handles well and they weigh exactly as they should. Only bigger ships are too agile, and fixing that requires a simple mass increase, not reworking a whole flight model. I dont know if you have noticed, but in SC all the bigger ships are very underweight, because someone early in development just made up their weights by comparing their lengths, while in reality weight scales with length cubed. This doesnt matter yet because masses of bigger ships will all be changed down the road during balancing anyway.Key word here being afterburner. And that's really something. You're comparing SC ships to Freespace ones, and the only way Freespace ones feel comparable is if you bring up afterburner acceleration. But yeah, you're right, SC ships feel like they have Freespace afterburners, except in every direction and not just when afterburning. I'm glad we agree.
A new company, heavily modified game engine AND a full game? Or an established studio reusing a prior game engine? Game like SC is harder to make than Witcher 3 or Elite, so of course it is going to take longer. Around 5 years, Id say. Thats 2017-2018 release. You are just being impatient, IMHO.Right, those games had premade engines. Unlike Cryengine. CIG made that from scratch, right?
But seriously, if a tiny indie team with no funding can make this in 5 years, how has Star Citizen not made anything worth playing in 4 with $100 million and +210 people?
But seriously, if a tiny indie team with no funding can make this in 5 years, how has Star Citizen not made anything worth playing in 4 with $100 million and +210 people?
Wow, that groundbreaking "realistic" flight model was really worth it. I guess it's groundbreaking to make a really complex system so you don't have to cheat, but then end up needing to cheat and the results are worse than if you hadn't bothered at all.
They should really have hired some industrial designers, or somebody who understands how physical objects work. From the very beginning, SC has been criticised for chunky ship design (a hallmark of Roberts' work if I do say so myself), and it's kind of obvious that they don't really know how to design a ship that really relates to the real world in any way. Couple that with a flight model that relies on actual physics to make the ships work well...how did they not think that they'd have to have a real understanding of physics to make it work?
Game artists in general don't typically know how to make real world things. Just interesting they didn't see the potential problem beforehand - maybe because they're so detached from the real world (in terms of mechanics) that they didn't even forsee the problem.
Comparing it to Minecraft is frankly misleading. For one thing, people who bought into Minecraft got the full game available at a cheaper price. Whereas Star Citizen requires you to pony up additional cash for all assets available in game. Their business model is more like Mechwarrior Online with its 300 dollar mechs than Minecraft with its 30 dollar everything. Except of course MWO was free to play. And yeah, allegedly these ships wont be available for purchase post-launch but frankly I doubt the truthfulness of that statement. If these ships have proven to be a huge source of revenue then are they going to cut themselves off from that? Hell no.The other reason that the Minecraft analogy breaks down is that even as far back as Infdef, and at the VERY least as far back as Alpha, Minecraft was essentially already a complete game. The majority of its core mechanics were already settled, and indeed much of it plays similarly to the game today. You had a bunch of block types you could build with, you had an (for all intents and purposes) infinite procedurally-generated world to roam around in, you had friendly and hostile mobs to interact with, you had the ability to craft items, it was all there. Compared to that, SC has...what exactly?
Comparing it to Minecraft is frankly misleading. For one thing, people who bought into Minecraft got the full game available at a cheaper price. Whereas Star Citizen requires you to pony up additional cash for all assets available in game. Their business model is more like Mechwarrior Online with its 300 dollar mechs than Minecraft with its 30 dollar everything. Except of course MWO was free to play. And yeah, allegedly these ships wont be available for purchase post-launch but frankly I doubt the truthfulness of that statement. If these ships have proven to be a huge source of revenue then are they going to cut themselves off from that? Hell no.The other reason that the Minecraft analogy breaks down is that even as far back as Infdef, and at the VERY least as far back as Alpha, Minecraft was essentially already a complete game. The majority of its core mechanics were already settled, and indeed much of it plays similarly to the game today. You had a bunch of block types you could build with, you had an (for all intents and purposes) infinite procedurally-generated world to roam around in, you had friendly and hostile mobs to interact with, you had the ability to craft items, it was all there. Compared to that, SC has...what exactly?
The_E: they're 4 years into development. It started in December 2011, by CR's own admission.
maslow, how much have you spent on SC so far?
So you're ok with saying E:D started 'real' development in 2012? Because they've got much, much more to show for 3 years of work than SC does.The_E: they're 4 years into development. It started in December 2011, by CR's own admission.
According to this logic, Elite: Dangerous is in development from 2001. Thats where the studio first announced they have some people working on Elite 4, lol.
There is a difference between "development" when just a handful of people are working on a nice trailer, and proper development of an AAA game with dozens of devs working on the game full time. SC may have been technically in development from 2011, but proper development did not start until somewhere in 2013, when actual studios with dozens of people working full time on the game were established. That is around 2 and a half years ago. As I said, while Star Citizen is a bit late, you are also being impatient. 2017-2018 is a deadline when if based Chris does not deliver, I will begin to seriously doubt his ability to do so. But not before, it is too soon to judge.
But yeah, I guess I'm impatient. Must have been spoiled by all those games that release within a few months of their projected release dates. Good thing Chris Roberts is here to show me that real game development is all about missing deadlines, not pinning down core gameplay systems, and selling 400$ jpegs. This must be what people mean when they talk about how revolutionary SC is.
So you're ok with saying E:D started 'real' development in 2012?
Because they've got much, much more to show for 3 years of work than SC does.
Nah. Elite is a much simpler game than SC. For one thing, you are glued to your seat. And all of the aspects of E:D are quite simplistic. This is not just my opinion, it is the prevailing opinion of the playerbase. The common saying to describe E:D is "mile wide, inch deep".No, at this moment, E:D is a simpler game than what SC wants to be. There's a difference. You're comparing an actual game that exists to a dream (a common thing citizens do when talking about E:D). There is absolutely no guarantee that SC will deliver on that dream, and it most certainly hasn't done so yet. What E:D is right now is a far, far more complete and elaborate game than what SC is right now. This is not debatable. It isn't opinion. If you think otherwise you are utterly delusional and there's no more point arguing with you than there would be arguing with a young-earth creationist.
E:D is not a bad game at all, but lets just say that I would be very disappointed if Star Citizen was released but resembled something like Elite: Dangerous. If I had to choose between a simple SC that is already released, and complex SC that takes its time to develop, I choose the latter. People did not pledge >$100 million to get yet another ordinary space sim. And if there is one thing money cannot buy easily, it is faster development. Nine women wont make a kid in one month.I really wouldn't be surprised if E:D incorporates this (https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/comments/33rynu/the_future_of_elite_dangerous_extravehicular/) before SC releases. What you really don't seem to get is that E:D is a lot closer to achieving the SC dream than SC itself is.
I really wouldn't be surprised if E:D incorporates this (https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/comments/33rynu/the_future_of_elite_dangerous_extravehicular/) before SC releases. What you really don't seem to get is that E:D is a lot closer to achieving the SC dream than SC itself is.
Star Citizen is almost certainly more than a year out.I really wouldn't be surprised if E:D incorporates this (https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/comments/33rynu/the_future_of_elite_dangerous_extravehicular/) before SC releases. What you really don't seem to get is that E:D is a lot closer to achieving the SC dream than SC itself is.
I wouldn't be so sure of that. EVA/SpaceLegs are at least a year out, as the content of Horizons is broadly known and doesn't contain it. Multicrew is supposed to be in, though with no ability to walk around or go outside and breath in space air. SC has EVA already, although in non-persistent world.
easily bored casuals who don't have any interest in enhancing their immersion by cleaning up coffee cup rings and physically simulated lines of cokes on the couches of a $20,000 preordered starliner.
I think there's a downside to E:D's situation though. All deficiencies are plainly visible, and there is a fair amount of criticism, at least some of it valid, IMO. After all, unfavourable reviews won't go away even if/when the game improves. Oh, and BTW, CIG announced some kind of planetary landings on procedurally generated planets. What a coincidence...
I think there's a downside to E:D's situation though. All deficiencies are plainly visible, and there is a fair amount of criticism, at least some of it valid, IMO. After all, unfavourable reviews won't go away even if/when the game improves. Oh, and BTW, CIG announced some kind of planetary landings on procedurally generated planets. What a coincidence...
Yup. Trailer:
Gameplay:
[My game] has the most awkward, ugly, unusable interface I've ever seen.
I think there's a downside to E:D's situation though. All deficiencies are plainly visible, and there is a fair amount of criticism, at least some of it valid, IMO. After all, unfavourable reviews won't go away even if/when the game improves. Oh, and BTW, CIG announced some kind of planetary landings on procedurally generated planets. What a coincidence...This is very true. Because E:D is a game, it gets judged as the imperfect game it is. It can't hide behind "it's an alpha". SC is a dream, and it gets judged as the perfect game the backers imagine it'll be, not as what it is. You can see maslo doing this with every post he makes.
Also, kinda funny:Quote from: Chris Roberts, 12/16/15[My game] has the most awkward, ugly, unusable interface I've ever seen.
Glad he finally noticed. His insanely awkward and frustrated attempts to play his own game were easily the best part of the stream.
Though I suppose that doesn't matter since the community and moderation team managed to drive a lot of women away by being insanely ****ty (not a joke (https://www.themittani.com/news/sc-user-banned-over-proposing-female-social-group)).
Lesnick took the time to point out he has no reason to believe Lauresh was banned simply for being a woman, but it was due to the numerous flagging with profane messages such as "mother ****ing troll" and "stop this person from ****ting up the thread already." The steps the moderator took that were improper were, as previously stated, giving a week long ban over the 24 hour ban due to CIG striking a previous ban from Lauresh. According to Lesnick's post, the thread also should not have been closed due to the lack of "toxic behavior" that the original post and intent held.
It's also very funny that CR is so desperately trying to one-up Braben. It's so predictable the SA thread called this a week ago.
Can you land anywhere on those planets or only at bases?
I also find it interesting that immediately outside the landing area, the planet loses definition. It goes from fairly detailed rocky area to basically rolling amorphous hills. the landing area is rocky and jagged, the area surrounding is all rounded as if by water erosion.
So is it a procedural planet with a hand-built landing location? The planet just window dressing for the park? Or can you land anywhere you want and get out? What happens if you land, get in another guy's ship and take off? Does your ship get swallowed by the lesser LODs?
Boo hoo, a Goon troll got treated as the troll he is. Cry me a river. Women only group will be allowed, despite it being a little controversial. Star Citizen is welcoming to women and minorities. :yes: But not to Goon trolls.Lol you're actually buying Ben's "but goons!" excuse. It wasn't the fault of his moderation team, it was all the fault of the goons! You are the perfect Ur-citizen.
Did you notice how it sounds like this was CR's first time playing his own tech demo?Boo hoo, a Goon troll got treated as the troll he is. Cry me a river. Women only group will be allowed, despite it being a little controversial. Star Citizen is welcoming to women and minorities. :yes: But not to Goon trolls.Lol you're actually buying Ben's "but goons!" excuse. It wasn't the fault of his moderation team, it was all the fault of the goons! You are the perfect Ur-citizen.
It's typical SC logic: community gets angry at the idea of a women's group in SC and turns the thread toxic, ban the OP. When called out, blame goons. Anything to avoid admitting that maybe his moderation team is ****ty and anything to avoid punishing the people actually at fault. And here's you lapping that up because you don't want to admit that there's any aspect of this game that isn't the best thing ever.
Same sort of thinking saw a woman banned from CitCon because she reported getting sent a dick pic from one of SC's $25k backers (that being Accelerwraith).
And I like that this is the only thing you responded to out of that post. So you agree with everything else?
Unrelated:
(http://i.imgur.com/FGof4QD.jpg)
https://www.restorationhardware.com/catalog/product/product.jsp?productId=prod80301&categoryId=cat3910198
https://www.restorationhardware.com/catalog/product/product.jsp?productId=prod3070163&categoryId=cat3250024
https://www.restorationhardware.com/catalog/product/product.jsp?productId=prod280189&categoryId=cat1676047
Now that's a responsible use of backer funds right there. Potentially 4000$ for three pieces of office furniture.
I wonder what they've spent there in total. More of that **** turns up in every single picture or video they take of their offices. It's like that $20k coffee machine they bought.
So what have you bought lately and when can we accuse your employer of irresponsible use of funds because of what you bought with your salary?I think there's a difference between spending your personal money on things, and spending money people gave you to make a game on a $2000 desk when you could have bought a perfectly serviceable one at Ikea for $150. If you don't see a difference there, that's your problem, not mine.
Hey. .. not saying it isn t exactly as you say ... but on the other hand, you are jumping to conclusions without having a clue, so who knows? ;-)
Yeah it's expensive furniture, but is this furniture typical of the studio or is it just hand-picked for this area to be film-able? They've obviously trying really hard to make this room "cool" but I wouldn't be surprised if most of their studio was decorated with ikea desks.A month or so ago they showed pictures of their new Santa Monica studio and the tables in the main work area were bought off that website. I'm combing the SA thread for the picture in question, but it's 800 pages long so bear with me.
This is going to be not only the UAV/Aeronautics lab here in UPM Serdang, but also the game development studio for my forthcoming project following the FreeSpace 2 Open-based Shattered Stars.Yeah it's expensive furniture, but is this furniture typical of the studio or is it just hand-picked for this area to be film-able? They've obviously trying really hard to make this room "cool" but I wouldn't be surprised if most of their studio was decorated with ikea desks.A month or so ago they showed pictures of their new Santa Monica studio and the tables in the main work area were bought off that website. I'm combing the SA thread for the picture in question, but it's 800 pages long so bear with me.
There's also that $20k coffee machine they bought.
EDIT: here we go:
(http://i.imgur.com/NLQmuZs.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/dQkIYEt.jpg)
https://www.restorationhardware.com/catalog/product/product.jsp?productId=prod2710129&categoryId=cat1676047
So yeah, pretty sure it's furniture typical of their studio.
Lol you're actually buying Ben's "but goons!" excuse. It wasn't the fault of his moderation team, it was all the fault of the goons! You are the perfect Ur-citizen.
It's typical SC logic: community gets angry at the idea of a women's group in SC and turns the thread toxic, ban the OP. When called out, blame goons. Anything to avoid admitting that maybe his moderation team is ****ty and anything to avoid punishing the people actually at fault. And here's you lapping that up because you don't want to admit that there's any aspect of this game that isn't the best thing ever.
Same sort of thinking saw a woman banned from CitCon because she reported getting sent a dick pic from one of SC's $25k backers (that being Accelerwraith).
Let me stress right now: I do not believe anyone on the moderation team banned Lauresh because they are a woman. I am 100% confident that it was because of the 30+ flags complaining about other users in the thread, with profane messages attached: “****ing ban this retard,” “for the love of god would someone please stop this person from ****ting up the thread already,” “mother ****ing trolling” and so on. Lauresh seems to have flagged not only sexist posts (which should be warned/probated) but also anything complaining that the thread was a setup (‘you’re a Goon, you just want to fight, etc.’)
And I like that this is the only thing you responded to out of that post. So you agree with everything else?
Landing on planets seems to be ‘the new black’ as they might say in marketing circles… You can do it now anywhere on the surface of countless 1:1 scale simulated planetary surfaces in Elite Dangerous: Horizons and landing is coming in the future in No Man’s Sky, Star Citizen (as I heard just now – a major new future feature they announced last night), Infinity: Battlescape and many others. This is a great thing, as open world space games have now truly come back with a bang, and I look forwards to playing them – and also huge congratulations to Chris and the team for raising $100M for Star Citizen!
What both Star Citizen and Elite Dangerous are trying to do is very hard indeed. Both games are incredibly ambitious. I am proud and excited about what we are doing, but what they are doing is ambitious too, and I am looking forward to playing Star Citizen when it is finished. What we are both doing is new; we are trailblazing. The scope of both is vast and quite different, and neither have been done before, so there is no right answer for either of the approaches. It is frustrating to see some of the criticism of Star Citizen online. We should applaud when someone tries something that is hard, that hasn’t been done, not discourage them.
Indeed, it is frustrating to see some of the toxic nitpicking that Star Citizen is the subject of by the detractors of our based Chris. As I said many times, it is too early to judge.. :yes: We are trailblazing.
Did you ignore those vulgar messages the troll sent to the moderators? He deserves one day ban for that alone. Normal well meaning community members certainly do not act that way. It was obviously an attempt to stir up trouble, and it has Goon methods written all over it. So forgive me for calling spade a spade. Here, let me paste it again:So yeah, reporting sexist and ****ty comments? Ban that troll. Making sexist and ****ty comments? No problem. Can't allow those goons to ruin our fun by calling out sexism.QuoteLet me stress right now: I do not believe anyone on the moderation team banned Lauresh because they are a woman. I am 100% confident that it was because of the 30+ flags complaining about other users in the thread, with profane messages attached: “****ing ban this retard,” “for the love of god would someone please stop this person from ****ting up the thread already,” “mother ****ing trolling” and so on. Lauresh seems to have flagged not only sexist posts (which should be warned/probated) but also anything complaining that the thread was a setup (‘you’re a Goon, you just want to fight, etc.’)
https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/comment/2421310/#Comment_2421310
Source for the dick pic accusation? I havent heard about that one... Do you have some evidence or is it just Derek Smart tier hearsay yet again?The victim posted in the SA thread a few months back. Had screenshots of the email and a really creepy RSI chat conversation she had with the guy. This was two threads ago so I'm not going to spend hours digging it up. Believe me or don't. I don't much care. You'd try and rationalize it away even if I did.
QuoteAlready blows ED out of the water technically but the big difference is it isn't live and playable yet.
ED need to up their game though because that is truly seamless and the planet had an atmosphere, albeit no weather, and the fidelity was much higher already and it is only in the early stages.
No.
An atmospheric scattering effect isn't such a big deal nor the big challenge in doing PG planets. Pretty much every PG planet demo on youtube has it including all the small one man teams playing around with it from their "bedrooms". If anything atmospheric scattering can be used to hide and fade away terrain while being "shiny" and "earthlike" which seems to fool a lot of people into thinking "better". Same thing with the Inovae Engine.
Case in point.
With scattering in Outterra:
http://i.imgur.com/EEf9PiLl.png
With scattering turned off:
http://i.imgur.com/fuO4oEyl.png
Showing the planet "naked" and without that "shiny effect" is a much bigger challenge while also making it look good. Something that ED have accomplished. As soon as they start to add these kind of things on top of what they have peoples perception of the quality will go through the roof IMO. Hopefully this video from SC might actually speed up the process of getting there sooner in ED.
The "fidelity" in the Star Citizen demo was actually nowhere near what can currently be seen in ED in regards to the PG terrain. Especially in terms of believable large scale features. What was shown was some rather generic noise algorithms applied pretty evenly across the entire surface of the planet as a heightmap. If they would remove the atmosphere layer and show that planet in full sunlight it would basically look like this currently...
http://i.imgur.com/KjgmKp3l.png
Now compare that to this in ED:
http://www.elitegalaxy.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/EliteDangerous64-2015-12-09-03-13-27-940x500.png
Which is why we are only shown the nightside of the planet from afar at the moment.
The fidelity in the custom made terrain around the base was higher of course, due to it being handmade, but all of the PG terrain around it was very simple compared to even many one man team efforts that have shown of videos on youtube. The terrain tech in SC will without question improve though and I look forward to seeing where it goes, but it's not like FD is gonna sit around on their hands doing nothing either.
EDs engine is just as seamless when just moving around in the engine. The difference is that in-game in ED we also have the network layer on top. How seamless SC will be while connecting to other players inside the real game instead of a tech demo like this is yet to be seen. However...there is a possibility that it might actually feel more seamless depending on how the split up them map of the star system. If the connection to the other players happens when using quantum drive to approach "orbit" as shown in the video and you already at that stage gets connected to the people down on the ground then it will be more seamless since no switch will be needed while going down. The downside is that orbit (including the station shown) and the planet itself will share an instance thus spreading out people over a much bigger area. Another downside according to my book is the uncontrollable quantum drive when moving big distances in space. I personally prefer the manual control EDs super cruise gives us.
Boo hoo, a Goon troll got treated as the troll he is. Cry me a river. Women only group will be allowed, despite it being a little controversial. Star Citizen is welcoming to women and minorities. :yes: But not to Goon trolls.Please point to where on the doll Goons touched your EVE spaceship
—Most closely comparable to PlanetSide 2, in that it will be an ambitious concept plagued by technical difficulties, bad balance, and an inability to find actual fun in the huge gamescapeBut I had a huuuge amount of fun in Planetside 2 with a lot of really fond memories of amazing battles and heroic feats.
who the **** actually cares how much their tables cost? it's a tiny tiny tiny fraction of their expenses and it's dangerously far into 'your crowdfunded game must be completed in squalour' levels of righteousness
who the **** actually cares how much their tables cost? it's a tiny tiny tiny fraction of their expenses and it's dangerously far into 'your crowdfunded game must be completed in squalour' levels of righteousness
So yeah, reporting sexist and ****ty comments? Ban that troll. Making sexist and ****ty comments? No problem. Can't allow those goons to ruin our fun by calling out sexism.
Yeah, that's truly excellent moderation.
Why does using god damn vulgar language matter? Are you a ****ing puritan who gets easily offended by such ****? It's another layer of language, albeit one that has a hint of frustration, but that's how that is.So yeah, reporting sexist and ****ty comments? Ban that troll. Making sexist and ****ty comments? No problem. Can't allow those goons to ruin our fun by calling out sexism.
Yeah, that's truly excellent moderation.
Reporting sexist and ****ty comments while using vulgar language? Ban that troll indeed!
Also, there were other bans handed out in that threat, lots of them for sexist comments. Making sexist comments is not tolerated on SC forums. The Female gamers group then went on with increased moderation and it all went well in the end. As I said, Star Citizen community is very welcoming to women and minorities. But not to trolls, Goon or not.
The only objective mistake committed by SC moderation in this whole incident was that a moderator handed out a 7 day ban instead of 1 day ban for first offense. A minor thing which was later corrected.
Why does using god damn vulgar language matter? Are you a ****ing puritan who gets easily offended by such ****? It's another layer of language, albeit one that has a hint of frustration, but that's how that is.
The community is objectively terrible, it's a hug box that's even driven away still loyal fans of Star Citizen from both reddit and the main forums. Someone named Baragoon who **** all over a LGBT group's thread went pretty much unpunished and still actively posts. The moderation is terrible as well, Beer4thebeergod got perma banned on the forums for his very first slight against it (a single, critical post) despite being very active in the community beforehand.
The troll wasnt banned just for vulgar language itself, but using it to insult other members. Now that is a banable offense on any decent forum. That ban was deserved by any measure.
The troll wasnt banned just for vulgar language itself, but using it to insult other members. Now that is a banable offense on any decent forum. That ban was deserved by any measure.
banning people for reporting posts is not the kind of action a reasonable mod staff should ever take.Really...
Which might merit a warning. Like if I was to call 666maslo666 a ****ing idiot. I'd fully expect to get a warning for that, but not a ban. Who gives a **** about doing it in reports no one except moderators can see?
banning people for reporting posts is not the kind of action a reasonable mod staff should ever take.Really...
And mine didn't even have bad language in them.
I'm only interested in talking to The E about this, if I talk to anyone.
I can't. He has forbade me from PMing him.I'm only interested in talking to The E about this, if I talk to anyone.
Then PM him. If you're going to drag your dirty laundry into public, don't complain when people point and laugh at your skidmarks.
Then don't use the forum as your person PM outbox. Seriously Lorric, you've been doing well for months now, don't start up this **** again over an issue everyone else has long forgotten about. Let the topic go back to Star Citizen.
And just for the record? Any answer you'll get from me will just be a copy/paste job of what Karajorma just said.
But I'm happy enough to let the conversation go back to Star Citizen if that's where people want it to go.Well, yeah. Duh? I'm not even sure what you were trying to accomplish by trying to hijack this thread with your personal issues. (And no, don't answer that)
Are you serious? No decent forum will ban people because they used any language to insult other members. What's the difference between calling someone an idiot or a '****ing idiot'? Internet discussions are pretty normal and so is 'vulgar' language, you don't just hand out bans for that.
Really?? I am absolutely serious. Calling people "****ing idiots" is maybe acceptable on 4chan, but not on official forums of a game company. It is a banable offense, and rightly so.
Really?? I am absolutely serious. Calling people "****ing idiots" is maybe acceptable on 4chan, but not on official forums of a game company. It is a banable offense, and rightly so.
Really?? I am absolutely serious. Calling people "****ing idiots" is maybe acceptable on 4chan, but not on official forums of a game company. It is a banable offense, and rightly so.
Are the reports public? Cause if not it shouldn't be bannable for exactly the reasons I outlined above. Banning someone for a comment they made in private where the insulted person isn't going to hear it isn't good forum moderation at all.
I believe ban is justified even when it is only private reports. One day ban certainly. So it is good moderation, IMHO.
Really?? I am absolutely serious. Calling people "****ing idiots" is maybe acceptable on 4chan, but not on official forums of a game company. It is a banable offense, and rightly so.
Are the reports public? Cause if not it shouldn't be bannable for exactly the reasons I outlined above. Banning someone for a comment they made in private where the insulted person isn't going to hear it isn't good forum moderation at all.
I believe ban is justified even when it is only private reports. One day ban certainly. So it is good moderation, IMHO.
Tell me, how much did you dislike censorship and political correctness again?It's not censorship because censorship is bad and CIG just wouldn't do something bad. You're just being a troll and/or impatient.
Guys you just don't get it. It doesn't matter what CIG do, it's a good thing. No matter what. Anything that seems bad will be promptly reinterpreted so it's always been the plan and it's always been good. We have always been at war with Eastasia.
I believe ban is justified even when it is only private reports. One day ban certainly. So it is good moderation, IMHO.
So you want people to be banned for using language you disapprove of in messages a normal user would never read.
Tell me, how much did you dislike censorship and political correctness again?
8. Don’t abuse the flag system. The flagging system is here to point out any posts that may be breaking the forum rules. It is not here to make fun of a moderator’s ruling or insult other members. Do not use harsh language in your flag description and do not flag posts simply because you disagree with another member. Do not reflag a post. Each flag is reviewed and often flagged posts require no action. Flagging posts that are older than 1 month will take lower priority than recent posts.
Censoring vulgar language for a supposedly mature game aimed at old school space sim fans also seems kinda stupid. I mean, it's not like we're talking about Nintendo forums here.
It's impossible to actually have a mature atmosphere if users are being censored or banned simply due to using profanity.I agree with this mother****er.
It's impossible to actually have a mature atmosphere if users are being censored or banned simply due to using profanity.
I hope Cobblers was being sarcastic. It's hard to tell on the SC forums.
Why are they even doing this? Are they trying to hide performance issues?
I look forward to 666maslo666 explaining to us how the Freelancer cockpit is actually really good and we're all wrong and/or trolling for saying it's bad.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnzcvlHHcdI
I think it is great enough. It is not a combat fighter!
Take a look at the 90-100m Starfarer and the Cockpit:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BatZFnSyj48
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnzcvlHHcdI
I think it is great enough. It is not a combat fighter!
600 Dollar :DMy favorite thing about people buying the jpg's is just how much fun they seem to be having. Not by playing the game, but by imagining having fun with it Someday.
Wait when its done ;) Besides the Idris the best armament, armored and fastest ship (like the Reta) and can carry 2 P72 and the 85x or 2 M50 ;)
Chris says even a single Retaliator is no threat to it. But if a Reta wing comes in or worse - a Idris I should flee. No prob. Because the Idris is much slower then the 890J :P
Has a add. Battle Bridge for Command & Control or Electronic Warfare.
Overall 7 turrets. Battle armed luxury Yacht :D
(http://i.imgur.com/VdYxLJB.jpg)
Would this level of hostility be tolerated if we were talking about Blue Planet or Diaspora?
How about Wings of Dawn or Dimensional Eclipse?
How about Wings of Dawn
Would this level of hostility be tolerated if we were talking about Blue Planet or Diaspora?I must have missed the part where BP and WoD took one hundred million dollars from people and were a year late in actually delivering a game with no release in sight.
How about Wings of Dawn or Dimensional Eclipse?
Would this level of hostility be tolerated if we were talking about Blue Planet or Diaspora?
Like I've said before, I don't think it's a scam. I do think CR wants to build a good game, but he's held back by the fact that he's incompetent.
Is the game a scam? Who knows. Are they scamming their players? Hell yes.
That being said, it blows my mind that someone would spend $600 on a ship for a game that doesn't exist yet. I could buy an entire FPV quadcopter setup for that.
Of course CIG are selling ships. Even they think so. You don't need sales tax for donations, and there is sales tax applied to every single item in the pledge store. These are sales, not donations.
Do you really think that many people would be donating 600-1000$ if it weren't for the promise of exclusive ships with fancy-sounding gameplay mechanics(Coming SoonTM).
More money for development means better game for me in the end.Not actually true, as we've explained earlier in this thread, but whatever. You're not going to understand any better if we explain it again, so I'm not going to waste effort doing it.
More money for development means better game for me in the end.Except so far it's lead to the exact opposite. More money meant more future creep, more delays, more disorganisation, more disenchantment and less game.
More money for development means better game for me in the end.Except so far it's lead to the exact opposite. More money meant more future creep, more delays, more disorganisation, more disenchantment and less game.
Feature creep and delays do not mean worse game, they just mean later game.I don't know if it's physically possible to facepalm as hard as this statement deserves.
Feature creep and delays do not mean worse game, they just mean later game.
More money for development means better game for me in the end.Except so far it's lead to the exact opposite. More money meant more future creep, more delays, more disorganisation, more disenchantment and less game.
Feature creep and delays do not mean worse game, they just mean later game. And I am OK with waiting if it means a better game in the end.
Oh don't worry. We've got you covered.(http://i1054.photobucket.com/albums/s490/kingspoon/WoD/Misuzuseal3_zpsvrkhrmqs.png~original)
(http://lazymodders.fsmods.net/axemart/WoD/wingsofcitizens.png)
More money for development means better game for me in the end.Except so far it's lead to the exact opposite. More money meant more future creep, more delays, more disorganisation, more disenchantment and less game.
Feature creep and delays do not mean worse game, they just mean later game. And I am OK with waiting if it means a better game in the end.
John Romero's gonna make you his *****
More money for development means better game for me in the end.Except so far it's lead to the exact opposite. More money meant more future creep, more delays, more disorganisation, more disenchantment and less game.
Feature creep and delays do not mean worse game, they just mean later game. And I am OK with waiting if it means a better game in the end.
John Romero's gonna make you his *****
You are proving my point. Daikatana was not that bad in itself
Wanting to compare the snail's pace of a hobbyist open source project with a handful of coders active at any time to a hypothetically AAA game studio with an apparently unlimited budget is pretty dishonest too.Not to mention that everything FSO has done has been after release enhancements and bug fixing, as well as being done on no budget. We have finished games; released over a decade and a half ago, even.
Of course CIG are selling ships. Even they think so. You don't need sales tax for donations, and there is sales tax applied to every single item in the pledge store. These are sales, not donations.
This does not prove anything. You need to pay sales tax if you provide any product as a reward. This is more about what the state considers sale/donation, not what CIG or backers consider it, or about the backer motivations for buying the ships (which is the topic here).
Wanting to compare the snail's pace of a hobbyist open source project with a handful of coders active at any time to a hypothetically AAA game studio with an apparently unlimited budget is pretty dishonest too.
What might surpass Star Citizen as a totally open MMO persistent open-world space sim/FPS hybrid free for all game? Nothing this decade probably. In fact if Star Citizen goes under, it'll probably scare off anyone from undertaking this sort of project again.
What might surpass Star Citizen as a space sim only (which is what a lot of people were hoping for to begin with)? Elite, No Man's Sky, Enemy Starfighter, the wealth of other small indie space sims that crop up every other month.
So yes, as I said, the delays did not result in a worse game, just a game that came too late, outmatched by competition.OK, even without discussing the first part of that statement, that still means that by the time SC comes out, it's gonna be outmatched by competition.
So yes, as I said, the delays did not result in a worse game, just a game that came too late, outmatched by competition.OK, even without discussing the first part of that statement, that still means that by the time SC comes out, it's gonna be outmatched by competition.
RSI know they can take their time because nothing similar but better is coming along, and likely wont be for a long time.I'm not sure on what basis you can draw this conclusion.
- FSO has been superior for a decade and a half to anything SQ42 could ever hope to achieve from what we know about their progress and chris' general approach to storytelling
While you guys raise good points, you're all being a bit biased. Even if FSO is a better space game, it's not a competitor to SC, at least, not in the same sense. FSO is a series of mods for a 17 year old game (wow) that requires a lot of knowledge to assemble (or at least effort). It also has no marketing. AFF is in a similar boat.You are outdated, nowadays FSO has a easy to use installer that doesn't require much knowledge or effort. And standalone games like Diaspora and WoD (and I believe recently BP made the jump to stand alone too, to get rid of the dependency hell that was shackling it), are all super easy to install. Diaspora has an installer, WoD is extract and drop. It really can't get much easier and effort free than that.
While you guys raise good points, you're all being a bit biased. Even if FSO is a better space game, it's not a competitor to SC, at least, not in the same sense. FSO is a series of mods for a 17 year old game (wow) that requires a lot of knowledge to assemble (or at least effort). It also has no marketing. AFF is in a similar boat.You are outdated, nowadays FSO has a easy to use installer that doesn't require much knowledge or effort. And standalone games like Diaspora and WoD (and I believe recently BP made the jump to stand alone too, to get rid of the dependency hell that was shackling it), are all super easy to install. Diaspora has an installer, WoD is extract and drop. It really can't get much easier and effort free than that.
It's not that SC has no competition, but that because it's trying to do everything and (that's the most important part) be the best at all of it, therefore it's in competition with pretty much every game from a vast array of subgenres.
A) No need to get personal.What?
B) You're assuming people have a basic knowledge of what a mod even is or how one would go about adding it.I am going to get a bit personal here, because you are being down right weird. Where are you getting this from? Where in my post have I argued or 'assumed' anything of this?